Examining American McGee's Alice Series (Including Alice: Asylum)

[@BoulderPunch]

UPDATE: April 7, 2023: EA has passed on making Alice: Asylum happen - www.patreon.com/posts/end-of-adventure-81049672 Help the channel grow! Like when Alice eats the cake. • www.patreon.com/boulderpunch Be sure to subscribe if you haven't done so already! Related Videos/Playlists: • Games Series Playlist: kzbin.info/www/bejne/on6zmZiNZt-pqqc&pp=gAQB

[@QIKUGAMES-QIKU]

Always wanted to play this.. One game I dont know.. / IT TAKES TWO is also the best looking game I've ever seen tbh .. Can you do something on this? Boundary breaks, eggs etc.. 🥚

[@oldboy2399]

Thanks for this, subscribed. I absolutely adore these games, the art direction, story and music are magnificent, as I have played through them both this video brings a sense of nostalgia and an urge to play them again. I hope the third game gets made and is fully realized and/or I hope the movie or show is made well and perhaps helps push EA to greenlight the third game. Brilliant exploration here, cheers!

[@MonkeyspankO]

There's just something about these games...a unique vision that I think even the original creators have a tough time replicating. The first one is beyond a classic, its a unique product of the time. The art direction limited to perfection by the technical constraints, as is the game play mechanics, the music, the VO, etc. The second one is good, but its just not a product of its time like the first. Still, an amazing effort, fun to play and look at. I think we should appreciate these games and forget about sequels. That time has long passed. We need new American McGee's, who turn their tortured souls into art.

[@BlackSailPass_GuitarCovers]

Boycott EA.

[@wakeshimutanemahazunakunam819]

A loss for ea. Seems like they saving money for fifa41 idk lol Such a shame they still got the rights of the game. Who would've thought they'd become so corrupt. Poor McgEe, he put all heart in this and now even left the industry

[@Sleepgarden]

Imagine having a huge design doc for Alice Asylum and EA just says "no" and you can't have the rights

[@NovaDraconis]

I really hope the devs will find a better company willing to fund Asylum… but after American’s statement, I am afraid we won’t be seeing this game anymore…

[@YumeYuugure]

​@@NovaDraconisAmerican did say that its all up to EA and that even if they greenlight the game that he doesnt want to really work on it anymore. EA has sucked all the Passion American had for this franchise. its so sad.

[@finnrogue9435]

@@NovaDraconis EA will still have the copyright so it's not gonna happen

[@georgiepig5726]

@@finnrogue9435 EA really just need to piss off and let go of the copyright for the alice games

[@livingcorpse5664]

@@YumeYuugure Sadly I can relate to the whole ungrateful bastards sucking the passion out of you thing. I hope American McGee has moved on to something he still enjoys and EA just dies off as a company.

[@madymoogaming]

And EA just turned Alice: Asylum down and refused to give Mcgee the rights... I'm gonna cry

[@yukowolfang8645]

EA is Dr. Bumby.

[@rc.czarii]

​​​@@yukowolfang8645 so true.. and alice asylum is literally lizzie while mcgee and us fans are a bunch of traumatized alice! Things are almost becoming real.. yikes.

[@simonreseigh6778]

Most EA shit ever

[@TheArtisticMafia12]

Like I Said someone either needs To Hack Ea And start Destroying things or Somehow ea Starts failing and Goes under, or They give the right to someone who will care but it won't be how American mcgee wanted alice, and he's done with it so

[@HerrHoppenstedt]

For us players, ea is "merely" a destroyer of games. As bad that is, it's just a game. But they ruined many people's livelihood. Ea is scum. They are disgusting people and i honestly wish them all the misfortune possible. -not the poor schmucks that actually work there. Talking about the bigwigs.

[@RockorSomething83]

Shame this series has once again entered Development Hell. I remember following Madness Returns when it was first announced and constantly searching for new info on it. When it was finally released, I remember playing the game nonstop till it was 100%ed achievement wise.

[@theSemiChrist]

I wish I was rich specifically to finance beloved IPs lol

[@Kooma4Yew1600]

Did? I had been following it on Instagram for a while 😤

[@euthanizemyself6972]

Dude I had the same experience as a young teen!! The excitement and escapism I felt playing the game was so good. As good as the hype & wait for Lollipop Chainsaw!! the PS3, god bless. My girlfriend's and I would play dragons crown, resident evil 6, Lollipop Chainsaw all night!!!! Some of the happiest memories

[@eba56]

Yeah sigh....

[@wiktorshowtime8242]

Yeah sigh....

[@Kaylakaze]

One thing I never hear anyone discuss, and it could just be my interpretetation, but it's with how distorted everyone in the "real world" looks while Alice is normal looking, maybe even somewhat idealized. My theory is that the people don't actually look that way, but we're seeing them through Alice's eyes and that's how she sees them.

[@rumpunch8268]

I think the character art in cutscenes are inspired from the original illustrations from the books.

[@crazyworldcreativepassions7754]

OMG I THOUGHT SO TOO I like to think It’s because she puts a child like emphasis on what their really like…the old woman has big ears because Alice believes and knows she likes to be nosy and listen into conversations she shouldn’t be, big glasses to indicate she sees everything and because of that uses that information as a means of manipulating people, like what she did to Alice…the dr at first seems most human looking, tho from what he wears and the colouring, even how he speaks to Alice…you can tell that she knows theirs something not quite right about him, but can’t quite understand what, she brings it down to him being rather cold and distant in his questions…hence the dark and muted out colours his character uses…

[@thesupervisor4515]

i think this was alluded to in the 2nd entry in the series. Such as the good doctor almost being a recreation of his real world self, but slightly twisted. as the evil breaks forth and he transforms as he would have in allice's eyes (due to the abuse) it basically showing her own vision of how he went from a nice person to revealing his true dark side.

[@XXXXX8]

It's super obvious, actually.

[@danieldonovan106]

It's also obvious if you look at her family portraits. Her parents and Lizzy look relatively normal, just like Alice, whereas everyone else looks exaggerated and borderline grotesque

[@oneesan9298]

I've always found it funny how the train which was destroying Wonderland ended up being the train that ran over Bumby. As if Alice's Wonderland worked as a time vortex.

[@abadgurl2010]

More like once Alice realizes that the doctor is the real villain and that she's truly innocent she no longer has a subconscious desire to destroy Wonderland and herself, the target shifts. So the train responds accordingly.

[@midnashadow8439]

@@abadgurl2010 yoooo wait! That actually makes a lot of sense!

[@nemoralia]

i always thought it manifested in her head as a train because the first ever subway station was about to be implemented in england at the time, so much like Bumby's "therapy" it was something foreign to her world and therefore terrifying

[@tortis6342]

fitting, as in Carroll's original books, time and the warping of time was a big theme, from the White Rabbit and his pocket watch, to the Mad Tea Party, where the Mad Hatter is stuck forever at tea time as a punishment from the personification of time, to the White Queen, who experiences time backwards, the caucus race where everyone starts and ends running whenever they like, until someone eventually calls an end to it. Then there is the train in Through The Looking Glass, where Alice is instructed not to keep the ticket guard waiting as, "his time is worth a thousand pounds a minute." Probably not intentional, but an interesting connection none the less.

[@malicetoaster1557]

"Alright Edgar, not drop a train on 'em"

[@Cunning-h2i]

I believe the lack of bosses in Alice madness returns is a great story telling choice. When she is in danger, be it psychological with the old nurse in the begining, or physical with her maid, she seek refuge in wonderland despite its state and the opposite is true. When she is in danger psychologicaly with the bombyx or physicaly with the white rabbit or even the walrus she snaps back to reality. Its only at the end that she faces her fear and danger head on and thats also why i believe what happens agiter the boss fight to be true in some way shape or form.

[@LadyBern]

If it weren't for them saying it was due to time I'd say the lack of boss fights works is because she's not fighting herself anymore as with the first game. Though that doesn't quiet explain why she may face enemies outside of the corruption other than a possible mental defense mechanism. Still she's not fighting herself in the same way as the first game, she's fighting the corruption.

[@alexandersmith4731]

It doesn't have a boss because it was rushed by the pressure of EA, there's no other reasons for it

[@ma.2089]

@@LadyBern it’s one of those accidental artistic choices. A lot of really cool things have mostly come about due to mistakes or other issues (in which they have to innovate to solve the problem). Here it seems to have worked out for them.

[@Dovah_Slayer]

@@ma.2089 I agree

[@LadyBern]

@@ma.2089 Now I'm wondering if it falls under accidental artistic choice, or an artistic choice born from desperation breeding creativity.

[@Erlynbebe]

Seeing this now after knowing EA rejected Asylum but somewhat greenlit a possible different Alice game as well as American leaving the franchise entirely is heartbreaking...

[@K.Marie119]

Minor nitpick (not all that important) Alice is catatonic in the first place, not comatose. Coma, vegetative states, and minimally conscious state and confusional state have a physical, underlying, cause. Coma patients are completely unconscious as the result of either TBI or prolonged hypoxia. Same for the other altered states of consciousness mentioned. The defining feature of catatonia is psychological. When we see Alice in her bed at the asylum, she appears to be in a stupor.

[@stellviahohenheim]

Well she can totally stupor deez NUTS

[@matthiasjagdm3949]

That is not really a nit pick, it was an error on the video creator's side , and i am so happy someone else noticed it since, I hadn't noticed the error so thank you for educating us and the video creator

[@dandy-dani]

@@matthiasjagdm3949 it was in the book and wiki as well, I remember they had a pamphlet too for the first game if I'm not mistaken?

[@Homodemon]

Yeah, they explicitly describe it as a catatonic state

[@jobdylan5782]

okay dork

[@kylespevak6781]

3:45 Art direction beats realism every time. Realism looks bad after a few years, art direction always looks good

[@lizardfishbird]

For real. The original Psychonauts still looks great 18 years later

[@wildmaknae_]

Ikr! Another example could be Borderlands

[@gwennorthcutt421]

@@lizardfishbird funny, i was also thinking of psychonauts! like as gorgeous as the sequel is, it really is just an update on the same funky srtyle (or as my wife and i chant every time we replay, "freaks freaks freaks freaks"). those muppets convey an idea no matter the poly count, and keeping a cartoony movement just reinforces teh style, not date it

[@karenamyx2205]

Yeah thats true. The "realism" games always seem fantastic at launch, but technology progresses so fast, in 2 years it looks old. And uncanny. Its main draw is a con now. Meanwhile, ill still play ocarina of time and think it looks great despite being literal blobby polygons, just because artistically it looks "hyrule" to me.

[@gwennorthcutt421]

@@karenamyx2205 ironically, that was what "realism" was with technology at the time. i remember being 8 and playing the game and being amazed at having fully articulated models with, gasp, expressions! its very limitations become iconic now, fueled by nostalgia. silent hill also had realism (albeit meant to be uncanny) that got outpaced, but because of that uniqueness and the quality of the games, everyone remembers it fondly as just another idiosyncratic part of the game. in time, the limitations become recognizable and part of the nostalgia, like how analog horror leans into vcr fuzz and artifacting.

[@bleumoon__]

Madness returns was THE very first single player game I ever played. It definitely sparked my love for video games. I will forever cherish it

[@SemekiIzuio]

Same! If not a bit different. I returned to gaming buying xbox360 and playing this with FF13! My last console before this was a gamecube and that was like 10 years ago before I got the 360

[@aesiro1336]

Mine was Pokemon Sapphire.

[@emilyashley8884]

Me too. Saw it on a sale rack and bought it. Ever since, it's been my favorite game.

[@sweethistortea]

Mine was Tinkerbell for the DS. 🤣

[@agbrenv]

seems like this game/franchise is getting rerecognised in the recent 1,5 years since a lot of KZbinrs have covered it recently

[@psychodrummer1567]

Mostly because there are no more original single-player IPs from big publishers, especially EA.

[@LudusAurea]

@@psychodrummer1567 Sad but true. I myself installed it, finally, after having this game for like 10 years, when I saw one of my friends play it.

[@voidnoidoid]

As it should be! It’s been one of my favourite game franchises for like 8 years

[@SemekiIzuio]

MGS has also been recognized these past few months! I am happy and glad these games get the recognition they deserve.

[@BlueBD]

@@LudusAurea I just replayed it recently, Its truely a wondergame franchise. would be the 6th time i beat it

[@aries_chaos]

I must share a story/moment from one of my first playthroughs of Alice Madness... My parents often went on holiday together once my older brother and I were well into our teens and could take care of ourselves. When this happened, my brother's PS3 would migrate to the living room and we'd get to play our favourite games on the bigger TV. I was playing through Deluded Depths when my brother got home from college and sat down to watch, letting me play a big longer while he had something to eat and refuelled for a night on Call of Duty or God of War.. He watched me wander through the little town centre of fish after the Walrus and Carpenter had been through, the whole gory scene, watched me shrink and unshrink, crawl through keyholes in shells, fight ghosts.... then we came to one of the cannon crab fights, and said crab walks straight forward, ready to smack Alice, and my brother sits straight up and says "whoa whoa whoa wait - **crabs can't walk forwards**!" Nothing about the cannon replacing one claw and the cigar held in the other, no. Not a peep about the clothed fish walking on fins under the sea, or for that matter the young woman walking along the sea floor and having no issue breathing, fighting, speaking...No no... On the realism font, my brother draws the line at crabs walking forwards.

[@abadgurl2010]

Wonderland is in Alice's mind, it doesn't need to be realistic.

[@mophead_xu]

your brother knew his priorities lol.

[@aries_chaos]

@@abadgurl2010 It would have been!! I probably would have thought of that if I hadn't been laughing as much haha!

[@HomicidalRubberducky]

That's adorable!! :D

[@sakurasensations4786]

Well I guess that’s kind of how some people’s minds work-including mine-funnily enough. Like we already know it’s not reality, and we won’t question fantastical things happening; it’s just when the most normal part of something doesn’t do what it’s supposed to. That’s when we get confused. Let me explain the thought process… The crab has a cannon for an arm and is holding a cigar. Okay, he’s a cartoon. He can do what he wants. It’s wonderland, you know? But he has regular crab legs. If he’s going to walk like a person, why would he have crab legs, when they’re already predisposed to walking sideways in the first place. In summary: What is the point of it being a normal part of him if it isn’t going to function normally? I don’t know how much thought goes into the movement and behaviors of every single character in video games, but maybe it’s like that just to confuse us. Literally to subvert that expectation: He has the crazy cannon thing and he holds a cigar because it’s a fantasy land where things are weird-cool. But his legs are normal, so that would indicate that they’d function normally. But they don’t. Why? Because it’s wonderland. Wonderland knows no such thing as normal.

[@whotio7374]

I had a teacher in High School who worked on American Mcgee's Alice. He had his original drawing of what eventually became the box art hung up in his classroom.

[@NotMorganFreeman.]

This is amazing.

[@midnashadow8439]

So here is my long lasting question. At the end of madness return when Alice pushed Bumby into the tracks, did he see a glimpse of wonderland? Cause he was shocked when Alice turned around, it was Alice from wonderland, so I’d like to believe that he himself was a bit mad and was given that dark glimpse of Wonderland before his death

[@ravenvalentine9823]

This is up to personal interpretation but I think it's more like for the first time he saw Alice as confident as she is in Wonderland. In Wonderland, Alice is an extremely competent fighter, able to wield all sorts of fantastical weapons, and fight all sorts of fantastical beasts without breaking a sweat (in fantastic outfits too). She's confident in herself and in the end, in control. In the real world, Alice is a small meek and broken woman who for years he's been controlling and puppetting. He's seen time and time again she'd turn the other cheek or just escape into her own mind when put into a situation she doesn't want to be in. So for a split second before the tracks the *real* Alice comes out, the confident capable woman, and he is caught off guard. Alice herself puts on the "garb" of Wonderland so she feels as confident as she does there, like when you steel yourself for a hard task, you take a deep breath and put on your 'brave' face. You unleash that inner strength. I actually like your interpretation as well, the combination of metaphor and reality fits quite nicely within the narrative of the series.

[@midnashadow8439]

@@ravenvalentine9823 Cause my thinking was “everyone who is mad has their own little version of wonderland” so I believed that Bumby managed to catch a glimpse at this twisted Wondwrland Alice had saved prior to their confrontation. I also like to think that it was the moment where the doll maker and Bumby merged together and met their end at the hands of Alice, heck! I still believe that the train she pushed him onto is the same train that caused havoc in her little wonderland, the train that once caused pain, was now helping her heal by eliminating that which made her mind and wonderland corrupted

[@ravenvalentine9823]

@@midnashadow8439 It is confirmed by American McGee that everyone does have a Wonderland! In Otherlands and maybe Asylum (we can only hope) she's gained the ability to swap between reality and Wonderland at will and enter others' as well. That's what I love about this series so much, all of it's story telling works on every level! I agree about the train! They say in the game that Alice made the train, the dollmaker just took it over, so I think the train was a representation of change and Alice's drive to get better. Alice and the Cat talk about how change is not inherently good or bad, and even them repeatedly stating it will destroy Wonderland can harken back to the Queen of Hearts saying by killing her it will destroy Alice. I think it also goes back to the tarot card roots of the beta, Death in tarot isn't actually Death, it's just *change*. By regaining control of her train she finally was able to start healing again! And to give that bastard Bumby what was coming to him. In the end, the train did shatter Wonderland but it was for the better.

[@LadyDoomsinger]

My interpretation is that the dresses have consistently been shown to reflect Alice's state of mind; the Steamdress, with it's buckles, straps, and corset, represents her restrictive and repressed life with Bumby; the Siren Dress with all it's colors, represents her denial and attempt to distract herself from the truth; the Doll dress represents her recognition of being objectified and used as a doll, etc. With that in mind, it's not far fetched to assume that the sudden shift to her "wonderland appearance" in her confrontation with Bumby simply represents her own confidence and empowerment, as she finds the resolve to end his evil for good. I think Bumby's reaction, was to the look on her face; the resolve and determination to end him. He recognized that he couldn't control her anymore, and that scared him. Likewise the ending, in which London and Wonderland merges together, I think, represents the reconciliation inside Alice's mind - she is no longer conflicted about the real world or hiding in Wonderland, she embraces both as she is at peace with herself, finally. I don't think that implies that anyone else would see London like that. Moreover, it has been pretty consistent throughout both games, that Wonderland exists entirely in Alice's own mind, and is a reflection of her own mind - it would be a pretty strange 180 to suddenly have Wonderland be something more "real" than her own imagination.

[@neku1080]

I think it was more to say that Alice is finally as sure of herself in the real world as she is in Wonderland. For everyone else, she's suddenly changed, but for Alice, her two worlds have become one and now she knows what she has to do to end the cycle; stand up to those who exploit her. Bumbey was just one person who hurt her, but almost everyone else in the game took advantage of her in some way. So, she's probably just more confident to confront her enemies now

[@boycub]

oh man. memories. i was obsessed with madness returns all through my highschool years. playing it was cathartic for my unmedicated mental illness and adhd ridden mind. The macabre twist on a classic story, the grotesque art style and story. the beautiful weapons and outfit design. I was hooked from age 12 to 16 playing once or twice a year ! Years later i met my older neighbour who had a similar experience with the first game through his highschool and young adult life. We were good friends and i miss him dearly ! He passed away of brain cancer in 2021. He gave me his alice and cheshire cat figures which i keep by my desk and look upon dearly. This game has always meant a lot to me and it means more now than ever. Im so glad to see American pushing against the odds to get eyes on his game and i hope i get to play it someday for me AND my friend.

[@boycub]

@Scott's Precious Little Account huh ?

[@whocares8269]

McGee Alice as a show? That sounds lovely and could potentialy spark interest for the new game to broader public

[@joshuakeely5593]

There is Alice other worlds you may like. They are mini episodes starring Alice with the original voice actors

[@VideoGuy232]

These games aren’t known for their compelling stories, their appeal is in their art direction. It would take a talented writer to breathe life into something like that, especially since the fantasy adventure genre has declined in popularity over the years.

[@joshuakeely5593]

@@VideoGuy232 No they are cult classics people love both the story and graphics it's like a gothic twisted Alice in wonderland.

[@VideoGuy232]

@@joshuakeely5593 Didn’t need an explanation, I know what the games are. There is very little story in either games. In the original Alice, following the fire, she’s committed to an asylum and becomes trapped in Wonderland. From there she just runs from place to place trying to locate the next Mcguffin to take her to the next stage. In MR she does the same looking for her lost memories, and there’s a child trafficking subplot which feels totally out of place, bordering on exploitative tbh. Neither are meaty enough to craft a series around

[@blinkowarner3117]

That's a very watered down description and you are beyond stupid.

[@nukaberry447]

The dollhouse chapter is my favorite chapter. The music, the dress, everything

[@o.siouxsie]

Same. It's the peak of MR for me.

[@wiktorshowtime8242]

Same. It's the peak of MR for me.

[@jeffdinvell]

That song is stuck in my head to his day

[@ifeellikeastar9052]

That chapter is the creepiest imo

[@Zipperskull_]

Same :3

[@StandTallTx]

American McGee's: Alice still has some of my favorite level designs of all time especially in the latter parts of the game. I'll never forget running to the end of a long hallway only to come to a dead end, turn around, and EVERYTHING had changed completely to a different room. No cut scenes or loading - it all happened in real time. Absolutely amazing and I have no idea why this isn't done more.

[@NoahGooder]

I can confirm the 2nd game probably had the most forgiving and controllable platforming Ive ever experienced in a game.

[@pillboys]

so would you say that someone who's bad at platformers could probably get through it? asking for a friend

[@radiocorrective]

@@pillboys Just do it!! It's well worth it!!!

[@Peridot420]

@@pillboys yes, definitely! I was horrible at platformers when I first started, but I’ve been able to finish the game twice now and I’m so much better at it.

[@bismarckluna]

While I appreciate the smoothness of the platforming, I actually found it a bit too unchallenging. Double jumping already gives you at lot of leeway for mistakes, but 3 jumps (4 if you glitch) + floating... just makes it a breeze and the game doesn't compensate enough for it. Also, when you fall on pits the respawn point is very close, so you don't really fear falling at all. While the first game was janky as hell it actually made feel a bit tense when I was jumping around since I had to really think about what I was doing. Not saying the first one has better platforming, on the contrary: the sequel does it much better. But I think they could have removed the triple jump and increased the challenge a bit.

[@MrPwner911]

One quick bit of info regarding American McGee's Alice: there's currently no way to get it on its own digitally* (you were able to on Humble through the complete edition but that's no longer available) and chances are that the physical copies will be expensive depending on where you go. *You may have to resort to grey market to get it, or sail the seven seas.

[@troy6031]

Pretty sure if you buy madness returns on Xbox you get the original game bundled with it so there’s that but I have no idea if that’s still a thing

[@lewisaino]

@@troy6031 The DLC for Madness Returns (when Madness came out) had Alice 1 available

[@Dongulator]

@@troy6031 It's a free DLC for Madness Returns, and Madness returns is included in EA Play, which is included in Game Pass. So if you've got Game Pass, you can play both without paying extra. Provided you have an Xbox 360/One/Series S/X to play it.

[@MangoSmoothy]

I have it digital on psn, it was a code in the day one version i believe

[@MrPwner911]

@@MangoSmoothy afaik (and like some people mentioned) Alice 1 can be purchased on Xbox 360 and PSN for the time being. The initial is regarding the PC version.

[@TheHouseAlwaysWins20]

I can't believe American Mcgee made a better gothic Alice in Wonderland than Tim Burton

[@Grim_Sister]

I can 😂

[@moonimarc]

anything can be better then Tim Burton's Alice

[@DanielMartinez-sm5kc]

Tim Burton's properties are overrated. Edward Scissorhands was the only good thing he made. And maybe Batman.

[@hello3-e6j]

I liked it- it was really fun

[@vegetarblessb]

​@@DanielMartinez-sm5kc The original frankenweenie is a great first film tbh, nightmare before Christmas has the Rick and Morty fan deal but it's honestly a great family movie. Alright I think that's it🤣

[@v4rr0lot3k6]

These are both great games. It would be really nice if we see a third title in the future, but the current state of the gaming market makes it seem like a pipe dream.

[@emnstuff]

I really hope more youtubers talk about it and get their patreon more traction. I so want this game. 😭

[@sillkthashocker]

Idk, we've seen a new Postal, Pschyonauts 2, Bubsy, Crash Bandicoot 4, you never know.

[@BlackSailPass_GuitarCovers]

You called it.

[@VegaManX4]

What, not a word on how beautifully amazing that hair physics was in Madness Returns?!?

[@_TIO]

I started with Alice Madness Returns and the thing for me was the art and music. The art got me into making my own character, combining horror and cute things and it really got me into being creative. But my gods, the music. I listen to it every few months and just feel entranced. It sends me back to when I was a young kid, thinking the cover art looked cool and then being blown away from the game. I hope one day we see another Alice game with iconic art and music again, I just hope EA doesn't take a shit on it.

[@MirrorOfEmotions]

You say it! The intro/menu music is just badass! My favourite "chapter" is the steam-world of the wonderland though. God damn, I liked her in this black gothic outfit. It looked so pretty cool! ❤️ My favourite weapon was the pepper gun. :D

[@Everyonefoockooff]

Yes!! As an artist songwriter this game is my huge inspiration. And as a sensitive person I find comfort in music from "vale of tears" it's just perfect.

[@_TIO]

@@Everyonefoockooff honestly this game just keeps bringing me back I adore it

[@BeanieGoth]

the first game will always be nostalgic for me. i remember being little and playing alongside my mom, the two of us trying to figure out the platforming puzzles and defeating the jabberwock. we also found out about the godmode command, which made little me (who couldn't play combat games to save her life) love the game even more. now, going into junior year of high school, i found a download online to replace the physical copy we still have (it won't work with my laptop), and i couldn't be happier. it's so nice to see more people giving this lovely series attention even in 2022.

[@87GNX]

Imagine EA actually doing something that the fans want. That'll be the first.

[@yes-ev5pj]

and at a normal price

[@agbrenv]

I'll be honest, I completely disagree with anyone saying the game is too long I think it's varied to enough to justify the length, for me it never felt that it outstayed its welcome and that's coming from someone who completed it in 16 hours when I first played it and around 13 hours on my second playthrough last year

[@wolf1nsoul]

Madness Returns is one of my favorite 360 games ever, despite it's flaws! And the Alice franchise in general is just really criminally underrated, so thank you for making a retrospective on them Punch❤️

[@TheHookBoy]

Madness Returns is one of my favorite games and it sucks that Asylum was canceled. Hell, I put around a grand into his Patreon, but the excitement I received as I saw the updates was worth it.

[@Illumiloni]

something i noticed while watching the video, I think alice's world became a bit more realistic as she grows older. Theres more focus on worker exploitation in hatters domain and deluded depths, more insight on other cultures in oriental grove that she learned about through the former lawyer. I LOVE how they included bits of London within her wonderland as Alice becomes more aware of her surroundings as she ages. A super cool narrative detail imo!

[@elnicolas123]

Ahhh, how I miss this franchise. American McGee’s definitely an acquired taste, but these games have a way of drawing you in. Fantastic content as always, Boulder!

[@wakeshimutanemahazunakunam819]

EA fucked up. This game is my childhood, I was so hyped for the third lart. McGee had supporters, ideas and everything. This is such a shame....

[@goromajima2067]

i was so sad to find out that asylum was cancelled :(

[@falconeshield]

Only animation can save the franchise at this point.

[@goromajima2067]

@@falconeshield Well considering American Mcgee stepped away from it I dont think we'll be seeing Alice for a very very long time

[@lanetorty7529]

as much as i want to play Alice Assylum, but I fear it coming out. i fear that it will be so horridly heavy-handed by EA's money-grubbing schemes that it will damage the game, I fear that it has grown too ambitious or awaited that it won't be able to deliver. i fear, that if it comes out, that it may tarnish the name for a new generation and possibly, for decades to come. these games are absolute master pieces, and its been so long that I fear what may come

[@Sweettormentt]

I agree 100%, so many new games are focused on the "battlepass" theme, if a game doesnt start off with it and ends up adding it later on it really ruins the game! Alice doesnt seem like the type of game to even have a battle pass so I dunno how they will be able to integrate that into a storymode game 😥

[@alexandersmith4731]

It has already been tarnished in Madness, look at the beta version and tell me EA isn't responsible for the game having repetitive mini games and platforms to the point they allow the players to skip it

[@Everik-ct6pg]

@@alexandersmith4731 they tarnished the name the second a sequel was proposed. I genuinely believe that a sequel to the first game would've always been objectively bad simply because they NEED to have Alice Relapse in order to tell a story, which means the entirety of the first game was pointless. Madness Returns should've been a prequel.

[@alexandersmith4731]

@@Everik-ct6pg I wouldn't say it's totally pointless, I mean victims do relapse, for the case of Alice it was the cause of someone who manipulated her, who knows what we could have learnt more in the Beta version ideas (I only know Alice was meant to kill Pris accidentally)

[@MsLovelyGuru]

WOAH MEMORY UNLOCKED. I remember being obsessed with just the pure aesthetic of this game years ago as a pre-teen. Thank you for sharing this! This game truly is a seventh wonder of games.

[@Phoebe5448]

Same here! A friend of mine introduced me to the original Alice back in 2006 or so. I was immediately hooked.

[@cybersoldi3r]

I would love to see a remake of the first game, to see its full potential, and more in line of return of madness. Either way I hope the 3rd game comes out soon

[@IchibanOjousama]

Nope, the other way around

[@cult_of_odin]

EA are a cancer on gaming and they own the IP

[@stephenlee1108]

Considering the cult following the Alice games have, it's really unfortunate EA couldn't (or wouldn't) go through with the third game. Even so considering how much work American McGee and his team has put into the vision of what the third game would've been.

[@Sea_witch_]

Madness Returns was such a turning point in my life, not even kidding. When it came out I was going through bad times, I seeked to "escape" my own reality and did so in bad ways, eventually I made it out so to speak. This game felt like walking through my own healing, as I was learning to be stronger and know myself to grow, so was the story growing in me and "helping" me, in a way, to do so, from my own traumas. Eventually I even got to dress up as Alice (blue dress and striped socks) and looked just like her lol, I was so proud of that moment. What a complex game, what a beautiful approach to the story, who better than a twisted mind with great taste in everything to do so! So glad you talked about it, brought it back for so many of us 💙

[@nukaberry447]

Madness returns was the only game I played back when we were really poor and all I had was a passed down 360. It's one of my favorite games I loved everything about it

[@TheLooneyChick]

Absolute tragedy this series never got a 3rd installment. The visual design is stunning, especially in the concept art.

[@__idfk__]

10:45 Seeing Alice act all polite and proper as a demon is funny to me

[@cryptidsprinkles]

We may get a third game, but it won't be from American McGee. He's said he's done with game development and is ready to move on. I'm really glad you made this video, it's a salve for the sting ❤️❤️❤️

[@seaweed5269]

It's really fun how nostalgic these games are for everyone. I remember locking myself up in the bathroom for maximum darkness and spooks while playing AMA, in order to more properly appreciate its spooky dream like atmosphere, while others have similar childhood memories about AMR.

[@xKarma_411]

Such a gem series that many still haven’t played because of book cover, but glad I gave it a try after a friend recommended it to me.

[@rodneyabrett]

I remember buying the first game at my local Electronic Boutique for the PC and I knew nothing about it but the box art looked cool. It blew me away. Loved it.

[@chasetruman8676]

Wtf is an electronic boutique

[@rodneyabrett]

@@chasetruman8676 It was one of the competitor retail stores to GameStop. For awhile, the big video games stores widdled down to only two. GameStop and Electronics Boutique(later rebranded to EB Games). I remember making a bet with my brother which one would be the winner in the end and my money was on EB. I lost, obviously.

[@ricks5756]

The soundtrack with the bells, during the airship flying toward the Fortress of Doors, was awesome! I still remember it to this day.

[@hologr4mgf]

i have talked to American through a series of instagram comments, he is such a nice guy. he has an amazing (and adorable) family, and his games are just chef's kiss. i will always love Alice.

[@Salieri01]

Yo this series deserves a new entry

[@calebgoodman3028]

There’s a crowdfunding campaign for that.

[@excelynite]

I hate EA, they don't make art anymore, just cash-grabs, they destroyed The Sims franchise, now they make empty promises

[@TannuWannu]

i still just play Sims 2. the modding scene is mindblowing, even to this day

[@ILoveAmericanMcGeesAlice]

I'm so happy people are finally giving this franchise the recognition it deserves.

[@mimilillamy3460]

I've played through Alice madness returns so many times it's my favorite game ever. I play it every time I'm in a depressive episod, there is something very comforting about it when you are sad/depressed. Plus it's just very fun to play!

[@MareCat31]

Ok,speaking of American McGee, he has a line of plushies whose designs are based around different mental disorders. They are called Plushie Dreadfuls and they really are quite cute. Not like excessively cute but still cute.

[@thealice7314]

Oh my I didn't know he designed those! He also makes them based off of physical illnesses. A recent release was the Ehlers-Danlos syndrome plush which i love as I have eds. Made me feel seen with my syndrome

[@pink_sky_morning4842]

I just had a look at them, they are so beautiful! I would really like to get one for myself one of these days.

[@honda-akari]

He sadly also makes ones for the gender crowd.

[@grimreaper78945]

@@honda-akari cry about it transphobe

[@TheFirstCurse1]

After reading this comment I checked them out and they're adorable. I want to get the depression Bunny so bad.

[@rvre]

I'll always have a soft spot for Madness Returns, was a beautiful game at a strange time in my life. I deeply enjoyed your analysis of this somewhat slept on gem of a series. With it's rough edges it was a creative retelling of Alice.

[@Icantpickaname12]

rip asylum, "McGee announced that even if EA were to reconsider their stance with production of the game in the future, he was not interested in being involved in future Alice projects.[24] He also announced his retirement from game development, with plans to focus on his family and their family business Mysterious."

[@MrSandManBringMeADream]

man, when i was a kid i pissed my pants how scary it was for me. slowly the more i grew up, the more i understood it.. such a underrated masterpiece

[@atlas4263]

22:46 YOURE KIDDING ME THERES A SPRING DOWN THERE?? I've played this game si many times and had no idea

[@evilvash0]

I really do hate how many games are stuck on shelves because companies refuse to give up their licenses even if they never gonna do crap really with em, this one, Parasite Eve from Square Enix, Silent Hill is finally getting a remake but most of us just want Kenomi to sell the rights to someone who would actually make more silent hill games the list goes on, the end result usually comes down to they keep the rights they eventually go bankrupt or absorbed into another company and it all gets lost anyway it sucks but here's to hoping they make a new game some day for alice.

[@pompomdo11_x]

I just can't get over these games. They left a lasting mark on me. I so hope there will be a third one

[@collette3428]

I suppose I'm an outlier but I feel Madness Returns to be the much better game. Alice 1 is fine but it's not too enjoyable imo

[@TheHalloweenSpirit]

I think American McGee's Alice have better story while Madness Returns have better gameplay

[@popump2617]

Totally agree, while Madness Returns story is good I think the first game has a better story. But Madness Returns has the better gameplay imo

[@IsabelCarlota]

It's the same for me too. While I don't have the qualifications to state which game is better objectively, I'll replay Madness Returns any day fully, while I wouldn't do the same for Alice 1. I think that's because I grew up with platformers and not old shooter games, maybe?

[@hanshecker9075]

I honestly never understood what all that "First one's story is better" chitchat. How? The AMA's story was "Alice's family died in a fire, so she suffers survivor's guilt, you completed the game? Nice, she doesn't have survivor's guilt anymore" And that's it. Even the only retcon (Lizzie) is easy to explain. Why does she only have a photo of her parents? Not every photo will contain the entire family. Why didn't she remember Lizzie screaming but only her parents screaming? Lizzie *didn't* scream during the fire, during the fire she was already dead! In the second one we have a lot more intrinsicate plotline, more details, more characters, more simbology, and the decadent aura London has is a perfect scenery to make the main villain's goal a lot more realistic. If it happened on a normal country, it would be like "Hm, too evil, cartoonish", but giving how Victorian era London was, how utterly deppresive it all felt, it certainly could have pretty well been possible, even more knowing of the story of Albert Fish (Although that had more connections with China than London). And gameplay-wise, I don't need to state why Madness Returns is WAY better than the buggy hell AMA was. The real problem A:MR has is padding. Oh, god, the padding. There are so many minigames, extra areas, collectible, all of them so repetitive and some of them don't even have a tangible reward, the puzzle minigame has the SAME SOLUTION THREE TIMES ON A ROW! It's like they wanted it to last a lot more than what it should have lasted. And I get them, they had to justify the price (EA, as always), but they are so detrimental to the general portrait of the game... It makes it boring after some runs. But still, Alice 2 is way better than 1. Gameplay *and* story-wise.

[@IsabelCarlota]

@@hanshecker9075 I agree! I think that at the end of the day, people will end up preferring the game that most resembles those they played in their youth. So if someone loved Doom style shooters, they I see why Alice 1 is the game that feels the most comfortable and fun - it's a more perfectly good game in that genre. Now, Madness Returns has a more polished storyline, myriads of things to do and it didn't feel unnecessarily long to me? I liked all levels? And the platforming is not only well done but incredibly fun! Now, I grew up playing platformers so that's a genre I'll always enjoy more, but Madness Returns stills feels like an evolution regarding Alice 1. Both games have amazing art direction and are good anyway.

[@GlitchyWitch24]

Coming back to this after they canceled Asylum..heartbreaking. Truly my favorite game series to ever exist

[@USAirsoft]

I remember as a kid my father downloaded this Alice style brick breaker game, the type of game where you hit a ball with a side to side movable paddle to hit colored bricks. It was a game I played a lot on my dad’s computer that might have been an old Mac but I can’t find the game anywhere or even screenshots.

[@spimbles]

mustve been some insanely niche flash game. theres been so many out there that a lot of em, especially old ones, are simply lost to time

[@Rainbow_Kangaroo]

Bumby's death was perfect, with the slow zoom out showing Alice's wonderland outfit.

[@bljet4388]

from time to time, in my mind would occasionally pop back the fond memory of me on a cloudy day watching pewdiepie play some alice doomslayer game. The acid trip of a book left the similar taste in my mouth, in retrospect, even though i hated the process of reading it as a 9 year old since it was my first longer "book" and was confusing. This game similarly looks like the same nostalgia material so i'll definetly try it.

[@Hrotriks]

TBH I didnt find Alice madness returns too long , rather just the right lenght... altho I can admit I have high tolerance for padding , so I could be wrong.... regardless nice of you to cover these awesome games and series.... I wish more games would go the creative artistic style rather than the "realistic graphics design " aproach.

[@jaded5957]

Thank you for doing an in-depth video about Alice. I haven't personally played the original but love the Madness Returns game and am really looking forward to Asylum (hopefully) being released. Great video and great channel.

[@lilandracarrier6907]

I adore these games. They are literally perfect in my eyes. It was as if someone went into my head and found things I loved and put them into a game format I also love. Pity we won't get more, grateful for the ones I do have.

[@xMORGANisAkittyx]

I remember hearing the news that EA completely scrapped Alice and wouldn't even let Mcgee take the rights with him. He was so passionate about this series. I was so angry, sad, and disappointed. Alice: Madness Returns was my entire high school experience and to this day is still one of my top 5 games.

[@pikminkin]

it makes me beyond glad when i see youtubers cover this breathtaking series. i was a kid when it released and i grew up watching my sister play it. having my understanding of what wonderland was (at that point, only the books and the disney movie) absolutely turned upside down. i was afraid of it at first and then mesmerised by it. in hindsight, i shouldn’t have been exposed to something as dark as the games but things were different in the 2010s’ and i’m a better artist and person for it. alice’s story of tragedy was incredibly personal to me and it’s going to be really interesting to see how the final entry in the series wraps it all up. i’ve grown up with alice and it definitely is one of my favourite series of all time without question. your video was awesome! it was a complete nostalgia trip for me so thanks, hope the rest of the year goes well for you!

[@Envious_JIG]

6:19 Late To The Jabberwocky is THE EXACT same notes to the sacred song from TLoZ Spirit Tracks... I IMMEDIATELY felt hyped hearing those same notes again from my first Zelda title (yes I know the alice game came first)...it's amazing what a few notes can do Also update: Last month, McGee said he's retiring entirely from Game Design

[@Shythalia]

R.I.P Alice Asylum 😢

[@QueSeraSeraaaa]

That version of Alice is way better than the Disney and Tim Burton versions combined. Alice look more convincing and the wonderland's characters are great. I was surprised how she controlled better in Madness Returns, she could jump more, float and unleash the hysteria mode. McGee said that Bumby couldn't be redeemed because of his role in the game, it was him who made her losing her family and home, and he sold the orphans just to make more profits. He manipulated Alice as he believed that he deserved the same amount of respect than the Red queen had. The game not having much bosses fights wasn't an issue, the story was really something more interesting to get throught.

[@SOBEKCrocodileGod]

Damn I forgot that Cheshire Cat is voiced by Ghostface from the Scream movies and Mojo Jojo from Powerpuff Girls

[@owinlaa]

Mojo jojo is voiced by ghostface??

[@lucymorrison]

I’m always glad to see someone else who adores these games. Madness Returns is my favourite game of all time and I’m so in love with the art and sound design of both. The story of AMR stopped me from killing myself because I finally felt understood, I relate to Alice and her struggle on such a personal level. hope to god EA gives Asylum the go-ahead sometime soon. I support American on Patreon and it’s lovely to see all the art and game design bits he and his team are working on.

[@exosproudmamabear558]

We had game catalouges when I was little.I fell in love at the first sight when I saw American McGee's Alice once in the catalogue when I was 6-7 years old. I just wanted to have it so badly along with theme park but despite begging my father he only got me Theme park but not Alice.When I got older I bought Alice madness returns just after I saw it knowing it was the continuation of the game I craved so badly.One of the best decisions I have made

[@KingFluffs]

I have a signed copy of the Madness Returns art book, and it's one of my most prized posessions.

[@16BitOG]

This game is such a hidden gem. My mom worked a library and would swipe all the new games they got and Madness Returns was one of them. Fond memories playing this game. Platformer adventure types aren't my main jam but I loved this game.

[@IceQueen975]

I will say this regarding the decision for EA: If you don't feel it is profitable... why tf wouldn't you sell the rights back?! "Oh, we can't make money from this, but we won't sell it back to you." what absolutely fuckery is this?! It's not even good business sense! The decision sounds personal and petty af.

[@bismarckluna]

They still make money from it, if they sell the property they won't be making anything and potentially enrich a competitor. They also don't want to invest the 50 million McGee asked (only for development btw) for such a niche project, because investors want the most guaranteed high profits. And they're used to insanely high profits from stuff like FIFA. McGee also seems to have a lot of artistic integrity, and people like that are difficult to work with when your goal is to make a product as profitable as possible. It sucks but it makes a lot of sense from a business perspective. Our best hope is if somehow 3D platformers, psychological horror and goths become trendy; and that's unlikely. And even if that happens, McGee is sadly not interested in game development anymore. It's just sad that such a cool and original property fell into the hands of such a profit-oriented (read as: fucking greedy) company.

[@galaxa88]

I read somewhere that the keys after each Fire Door Memory mean something to the story, with Lizzie's Key Door being significant to the full story. But the symbols on each key gained hold something important. I just have to figure out what each mean and how it correlates to the story. Edit: After some digging, I’ve found each symbolism for the keys, and I’ll do my best to connect them to the story. Be warned because it will be long. Saturn Key: Responsibility and limits. With limits, I’m guessing it’s because she doesn’t have a lot of evidence or information about the truth. She also thinks she was responsible for the fire (however, this was already foreshadowed not to be the case because the Jabberwocky is already dead by the time she’s there). Mercury Key: Logic and thought. I think this is the starting point where Alice begins to connect the dots. As the game progresses, there’s information that doesn’t connect, meaning there’s more than what she knows (most notably being Centaurs not living in Oxford). Moon Key: Memories and secrets. Of course, Alice is collecting memories from everyone she knows, some of which gives hints about what’s going on. Alice also kept a lot of Lizzie’s secrets, so guess what helps her find the truth? Mars Key: Passion and drive. Throughout the entire game she’s passionate about finding the truth about the fire and who controls the Infernal Train. They all go down to one person. Venus Key: Harmony and love. The things Alice longs for. By the end, however, she finally gets that in Londerland. Granted, she can’t go back to how it was before, as said by the Cheshire Cat, but these two components will be something that’ll co-exist with her and Wonderland…for now. That’s all I gathered. Feel free to add something or correct me!

[@abitcattywampus]

The game is full alchemical and astrological symbols. The keys are Saturn, Mercury, Luna, Mars, and Venus.

[@thedeepfriar745]

Can we just appreciate that the fantastic Roger L. Jackson voices six characters in America McGee’s Alice. That’s right The man that makes Ghostface so terrifying voices six characters in this game

[@sopranophantomista]

I never got a chance to pick up Alice: Madness Returns, but I really should. Asylum looks amazing, and I'm so happy that McGee and Co are still so passionate about finishing out the story. With the success of Gris and its exploration of reconciling grief through gameplay, I would say there's definitely a niche that would love to see this come to fruition.

[@DalyantheVampire]

Alice, Madness Returns is a whole experience, from the music, design, atmosphere, story, to combat and platforming - I would never dare say that it is overstaying its welcome!

[@liamcollinson5695]

I could imagine shudder picking up the Alice TV show its probably the most fitting

[@BNuts]

I've seen some of American's development streams for _Asylum_ , and it's an interesting process to see happen. I hope it gets made.

[@shenhehaver]

well. they denied the third game and mcgee retired. :(

[@JadenFox9]

only way Asylum will be seen is if it was turned into a Spiritual Successor Indie Game because trusting EA is like trusting a extremely sleazy businessman, you ain't gonna get anywhere

[@impatientjones1617]

I would love to have the creators behind A Series of Unfortunate Events work on the Netflix adaptation, they've proven to be good at adaptations and are capable of mix very dark subjects with whimsical and witty dialogue

[@helenakorb3031]

I found out about Madness Returns at age 15 in 2013 and only been able to actually play it in 2014. I had no context and no idea about the previous game, but watching a few gameplays and being a huge fan of Alice derived stories it had me completely hooked. I was obsessed with playing it throughout the following years in which I replayed it tirelessly. I do realize tho, that the levels are repetitive and could be shorter, but everything about this game, for me, was done in such an incredible way that I couldn't do anything else but love it wholeheartedly. I hope to one day play the previous game as the latter one holds a very special place in my heart, to this day being one of my two favorite games of all time. It's always nice to see analysis about it and learning things I didn't know.

[@favoritemustard3542]

I loved Alice! It was a lot of straight forward fun. After beating it a couple of times, I went back & no-clipped through everything, which bore into me a love of game secrets & breaks

[@favoritemustard3542]

@Scott's Precious Little Account pc

[@BlazingsNL]

I actually liked that Alice Madness Returns kept on going for as long as it did. I really enjoyed that game and was happy to find out there was another area to explore, and then another, and then another!

[@gamesergeanthd]

Every dark take on a fairy tale wants to be her so bad

[@sebastiandesire]

I've only been a fan of this series for over a year but it's had me on a chokehold from day one. It's a story that I love being told over and over and that's why I'm grateful for videos like this. 💖

[@Road_to_Dawn]

My brother and I distinctly remember the first game because it was always sitting on top of one of the shelves at the GameStop we often went to growing up. We never ended up buying it, but we still talk about it now and then. I was shocked when the second game was announced, and it was a real nostalgia trip just reading about it. I’ve still never gotten around to playing either game, but I really hope the third game does end up happening.

[@animenja]

I think I remember watching some gameplay when I was younger on this game, it shooks me that I found this so sudden. Good old and weird probably traumatizing memories. From what I remember it was Madness returns, since I mainly remember smoother graphics, and not ps1-2 kind of ones. Still has a place in my heart tho. Yes, yes, I remember now, the part in the Asylum, I remember it too well, it kinda traumatized me as a child. But hey.

[@svenneumann2816]

Madness returns is one of my all-time favorite games.

[@xBananaskinx]

Showing the pimp character while you're discussing EA is very accurate

[@TruMaverick]

Alice has an amazing feel in these games. Both took me on an incredible journey. A journey which brought me here.. or was I already there?

[@katietuohy7846]

REALLY hoping Asylum happens. I don’t have as high of hopes for the TV series though given the current state of streaming.

[@DaveBirowski]

Top four favorite game series ever. Thief, tlof and souls being the others. Good work my friend

[@linshaw774]

I am replaying the Madness Returns right now. It is a masterpiece. Oh, there's wonky camera things and long levels, but the progression through a work of art (literally discussing the visuals) is incomparable. Interesting how timely the subject matter is at this time in history. It was/is, indeed, always ahead of its time.