Examining The Pilot Shortage In The U.S.

A wave of expected pilot retirements in the near future will only make the shortage worse.

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[@TrendingHeadlinesTV]

Airlines in general need to start providing their own training to pilots that already have their private license. Then instead of these ridiculously expensive schools being paid back TH program fees, just deduct the payments from the pilots paychecks from their prospective couriers. This makes more since to me and would curve the shortage possibly.

[@jdub7771]

That's a good idea. I'm a commercial hvac tech and the first company I worked for around 25 years ago did this. They'd hire inexperienced guys and would pay for you to go to school. If you graduated (year and a half course), they would pay for half after graduation and then required you to stick with them for 5 years,or you pay them back etc. It made it so we had one of the strongest hvac companies on the east coast. We serviced from New Hampshire to North Carolina.

[@PilotFlyingJay]

The training isn’t the problem it’s the ATP restriction Because even if airlines pay for your training you still have to log 1,250 flight time hours just to be eligible for ATP restriction , then you have to actually get hired on You’re looking at $60-100k cash plus years of flying to get to 1,250 hours

[@SeaHusker54]

Couldn’t agree more. I hold a PPL, but due to life circumstances and Covid I couldn’t complete my training. 3 years later I still would love to be a Airline Pilot, but simply can’t quit my full time job to take out a 100K loan. Furthermore I have rent and bills to pay so I can’t train for free. I don’t know how these young kids are able to make it through pilot school at this point unless they already live near a major flight school.

[@PilotFlyingJay]

@@SeaHusker54 One thing I noticed at my flight school most of the kids that are flying in my area are “ mommy and daddy money “ kids or kids living at home while working full time , or people maxing out credit cards …. I’m curious to see how the aviation industry will change in the next few years with this shortage and it’s only going to get worse … I’m predicting the FAA will loosen the restrictions, I mean you’re already seeing airlines dropping the college requirement

[@SeaHusker54]

@@PilotFlyingJay It’s crazy to think the FAA would rather loosen Hour requirements then change the whole way we do training in this country.

[@mianatwood]

Money is the biggest reason! I’m from a low income family in the Bay Area. I spent $80k so far on flight school and barley getting done with my commercial training. After this I need to probably spend another $10k to become an instructor and teach people how to fly small planes and so I can build my hours up to 1500hrs that way and then I can apply to the airline and do the ATP training for it. Money is the biggest factor in this! While I got $42k from the Federal Government to take a stupid major like economic at University of Berkeley, California. But I have to pay everything out of pocket for flight school and oh don’t forget this, the money isn’t even tax deductible!

[@mysterioanonymous3206]

That's why you should've gone through the air force and get paid to train/fly.

[@videogameplayer0552]

@@mysterioanonymous3206I was considering that option, but I don’t want to wait four years of doing ROTC just to start flying airplanes. That’s why I start at a part 141 flight school this fall.

[@mianatwood]

@@mysterioanonymous3206 nah, I don’t wanna sign up for 3 years of service and go kill innocent people in 3rd world countries for politics.

[@apackwestbound5946]

I am an aging "boomer" airline Captain who is about to retire from the industry. Decades ago I was in the flight deck (cockpit) while the airplane was on the ground parked at a gate at LAX (Los Angeles International Airport) between flights with the flight deck door open. A young man, maybe Junior High school age, came up the aisle and was standing in the door looking into the flight deck. I invited him to take another step or two and enter the flight deck where I gave him the "tour" (showing him the various instruments, radios, throttles-all that "stuff"). When I was all done I nonchalantly asked him, "So, do you want to be a pilot when you grow up"? To which he equally nonchalantly replied; "Nah, I wanna be an actor". With that he spun on his heels turned around and walked away without saying another word. I still laugh about that. I hope he is living his dream today wherever he is. I certainly am living mine. When I was young, many people wanted to be pilots; these days. not so much.

[@galaxyj-lj7dj]

😞

[@mattb9774]

In High school I loved the idea of being a pilot but I mean back in the mid 2000's I had no idea how to even begin down the bath vs joining the Navy/Air force and even that doesnt guarantee you get to be a pilot.

[@TGraysChannels]

Same spot here, 49 years in the Air. At the little airplane events I go to, I am one of the youngest guys at the event. When I was about 15 I started hanging out at the airport. Held the flashlight for the mechanic, swept the hanger, washed airplanes. At our field, I have never seen a kid come by. Just men older then me. Weird.

[@floridaman964]

I don't want radiation

[@townsendheal8471]

No way sir it could have been me!? I think it was a United Flight. I have a picture from like 1998 with me cheesing sitting in the left seat and a captains hat on. I was a little fruit cake back then ,I did always want to be an actor ; but definitely from that moment forward I told everyone I wanted to be a pilot when I grow up. Whether it was you or not, I’ll never forget- that cockpit experience totally changed my outlook on what I thought was a cool profession. I saved up and am a CFII and working towards my ATP as we speak.

[@ryansterl1881]

The main reason for the shortage I feel is the cost, you’re looking at $40,000-$100,000 and you cannot use a traditional student loan for majority of flight schools, if you were able to get a traditional student loan for all flight schools I think we would see many more pilots coming into the workforce

[@husseinajami1400]

Man when I was in college I said the same thing. I dropped out after running out of money going back to flight school at 24 now still young but if they gave me traditional student loans for flight school I would have been a pilot this year crazy ain’t it lol

[@sebrofc]

Absolutely true!

[@crazypilot4017]

How about more flexibility on flight school loans? That’s the kicker, especially on new and upcoming students. Or helping student pilots, get all of their certifications, but while also working to get through school? I have student loan debt to pay off, and working a job to pay them off, while still finishing the rest of my certifications…

[@kyle42903]

Lol my loan is 18%APR… my original student loan for college wasn’t close to that… I am banking on a sign on bonus that may not be there…

[@crazypilot4017]

@@kyle42903 I hear ya. If the bonus is there, it’s usually given incrementally. The flight school I attended partnered with Sky West. Sky West has a student loan payback program once finished with your training, have your hours, and work for them.

[@Jz-sv1ju]

Exactly unfortunately everything once we are born into this world is commercialized.

[@kyle42903]

@@tyflys7170 I was thinking about this but I held off as I am still working full time. I will ask them to increase mine when I start commercial ground training since it’s smack in the middle of the day with no work around a. How do your disbursements work? My loan was paid directly to the school which is why I asked.

[@thebluehero2219]

EXACTLY! It’s extremely hard, time and financial consuming. Let’s not forget the BS economy we have to live in and deal with.

[@AwesomePilotGuy]

United and Scott Kirby clearly aren't too worried about the pilot shortage, or else he would've delivered his pilots an industry leading contract 8 months ago.....

[@mr65136]

You think there's a pilot shortage? Look at the air traffic controller shortage. There is no shortage compared to that.

[@aom808]

Aircraft Mechanic shortage too

[@kyle42903]

Agreed a friend of mine is ATC and they are crazy.

[@mysterioanonymous3206]

Really? I think they were recruiting here where I am in Switzerland too but I think they can fill positions. Salary here is 160k a year. Pretty damn good. I almost signed up but didn't want to move or live near the airport, or work shifts.

[@kyle42903]

@@mysterioanonymous3206 not sure what the requirements are there however in the us it’s harder to be ATC than a pilot.

[@mysterioanonymous3206]

@@kyle42903 yeah it's not easy for sure. The cognitive load is pretty high and the room for errors basically inexistent. I think you sign on for training and from there it's constant selection and testing - no job guarantee. But 160k is a great salary if you make it through and work conditions, given the constraints, are too.

[@dylanpeterson6449]

The primary issue isnt the high cost of training, but the fact there is no job market after you finish your training. Prior to the Colgan Air crash in 2009 you would get your license at 300 hours and get your first airline job around 500 hours. Now you need 1500 hours to be any sort of marketable (maybe 1250 but at that point just go for 1500). Since there are no jobs you end up in this training Ponzi scheme (making others pay for your hours) where you become an instructor making minimum wage holding your training debt burden for 3 years. How can we fix it??? I think we really need to look at the relatively new requirement that co-pilots on regional aircraft (greater then 30 passengers) need 1500 hours. The Captain needs to be experienced, but the moment we require that same experience for the co-pilot, we removed opportunities for our pilots to be trained correctly with proper CRM. The Colgan crash that this requirement was based on the pilots were higher hour anyways, but with proper technology and an experienced mentor/decision maker at the primary controls, we are loosing out training those future pilots.

[@GabrielHernandez-be3rs]

This is what I’ve argued for soo long. I dont understand why they use the Colgan air accident as an excuse to increase the required amount of hours to get a job as an airline pilot. Not sure why that was even a thing considering both pilots on that flight had well over 1500 hrs at the time, why doesnt anybody look at the data prior to that accident and see how many accidents occurred due to pilot error. Why is that only a thing in the U.S? You look a lot of other countries and they hired a qualify pilot with 500 hrs or so and put him/her on the right seat of an Airbus A320 and how often do we ever hear about aircraft accidents that happened due to a pilot that wasnt trained enough. Also, the pilots union refuses to adopt any measure that would lower the qualifying hours for a pilot to be hired at an airline, not sure why but here we are. Im in flight school myself and every once in a while I wonder if all this time and money Im investing in it would be worth it.

[@airplaneass]

@@GabrielHernandez-be3rs 1500hr requirement does increase safety. Experience is part of the reason. Are you really ready at 500 hours? Understand that people previously did come in at 250hrs, but most people were not ready. The other reason 1500hrs increases safety is because it allows pilots to be in a stronger bargaining position when it comes to contract and QOL. At the time of Colgan the FO would have made something like 20k a year. Partially the reason for the crash was fatigue which contributed to both pilots making mistakes. Captain slept in a crew room ie. flight planning room, FO "slept" in the jumpseat of a cargo plane for 5 hours then immediately went flying. With better pay rates, you can now afford something like a hotel room etc and have better quality of life. You can talk about other countries but their hiring rates and screening processes are EXTREMELY strict. Take a carrier like Saudia or Cathay. It's a 4 or 5 stage interview including extensive cognitive testing. Their medicals include getting an EKG for your heart. Their pay is not higher than it is here. I can guarantee you the interviews and medical process here is no where as stringent. So its more like apples and oranges type of comparison.

[@WinginWolf]

Yup. CFI or bust. Otherwise you're as jobless as a gender studies major. I pretty much call a commercial pilot certificate a "commercial pilot studies" degree.

[@WinginWolf]

@@airplaneass I agree mostly, but IMO we didn't need to create a shortage to increase pay and benefits; heck you could have just forced airlines to pay up via law. Plus we also didn't need to create a shortage to improve rest rules. "Are you really ready at 500 hours"? With the safety record the US prior to the ATP rule and the rest of the Western aviation world, clearly it's worked before and continues to work. Plenty of accidents in the past with very experienced pilots too. The ATP rule is ok given what it's done to pay rate, but is more philosophical than it is practical. If you can get to 500 from 250, you could probably get to 1500 and ATP requirements. The problem is getting out of 250. Otherwise, that training was all for nothing. Pay up.

[@ko-kf2nu]

do you think automation and next generation of planes will replace pilot?A 35 year experienced pilot told that pilot will start to extinct after 15 years

[@caltman1988]

Simple solution. Airlines pay for training make you sign a contract for x number of years and boom problem solved. They do in trucking every day

[@Waltaere]

Asking businesses to pay for more than what they’re already paying for is 😬. Although not a bad idea the cost compared to cdl training is probably why it’s not happening. I know cause i was curious about flight training a while ago and after seeing all the cost associated with it especially when you multiply that cost with how many are needed i can see why the airlines don’t want to risk their money in such venture

[@vagasint.4345]

Some airlines do this

[@caltman1988]

@@vagasint.4345 which ones

[@s9360321]

@@caltman1988 many asian airlines have their own cadet program, training their cadets from 0 hour to first officers.

[@caltman1988]

@@s9360321 I said that pay for it not have an over priced program. They know that issue is price so let's do something about it otherwise deal with pilot shortage

[@josephpadula2283]

A&P mechanic shortage too! The pay is so low it is crazy . Most car mechanics make much more than airframe and power plant A&P mechanics.

[@dougmitchell20]

I’m an A&P technician for Delta in Atlanta and after Covid it is insane how much experience we lost. My department is line maintenance and the average age in my department went from roughly 40 years old to 22/23 years old. It was un heard of to be able to come right out of school into the airlines with no experience. When I graduated in 2009 airlines were requiring 3-5 years of heavy experience no questions asked

[@idolhanz9842]

Im so glad Delta turned me down so I wisely stayed in the military and concluded a lucrative 24 year flying career in 2003....I retired under the old old legacy retirement system .

[@dougmitchell20]

@@idolhanz9842 yeah 2005 bankruptcy was right around the corner. Was not a good time for any airline none the less

[@johnnydoe9969]

@@dougmitchell20I’m 23 just graduated, what is delta starting pay ?

[@dougmitchell20]

@@johnnydoe9969 line maintenance starting pay is $40.33 I believe. Top out is $63 in 6 years

[@dreday1062000]

Thinking of doing flight school at the local college. My GI bill from the army is gonna pay for it.

[@keepitleaux]

yes do it

[@JetaraTheGoddess]

Go for it!

[@meridian788wf2]

They will pay for the books and ground school, 5 years ago I went to use it for flight training. Wouldn’t cover it.

[@jacobegger6364]

From what I’ve seen, the major airlines don’t have the shortage. It’s the regional airlines where the shortage is. United, American, delta, etc have no problem finding candidates.

[@mikehunt7481]

the regionals are barley even hiring currently. Envoy and air wisconsin are the only 2 hiring currently. there’s a capitan shortage at the regionals rn.

[@AK-qc8ix]

The majors are not having trouble finding applicants because they have lowered their minimums to the same as the regionals but with a lot more “preferred” items.

[@ghostrunner2138]

the regionals is what feed the major airlines so it,s going to move up

[@franciscoesterripa7912]

I don’t think the problem is to find people, the problem is the still high cost of training

[@sfarun]

The idea of being a pilot is nice, but the reality is flight school is the only kind of school that does not guarantee you a job after 'graduation'. So you spend 100k on training only to be a minimum wage flight instructor for a few years and hope to join a commuter for a few more years, and that's if the economy doesn't tank in the middle of your growing career. The 1500 hour rule needs to be revised, I know it doesn't sound safe, but with a good crew pairing then the job becomes more attractive.

[@WinginWolf]

You'll make decent money at (most?) flight schools: $45 an hour at my place. In Texas. Dunno about elsewhere. I realize most gigs are per flight and not 8 to 5, M-F.

[@reubenmorris487]

You're absolutely correct about having TONS of hours and becoming a safer pilot. In Europe they train people from zero hours to flying Jumbo jets in 9 months.

[@andry954305]

ALPA would never allow this. That will only increase supply of pilots, therefore they would have less leverage when it comes to salary negotiations with the airlines.

[@videogameplayer0552]

The 1500 hour rule is why pilots in the U.S. get paid so much now. Less pilots available for airlines to hire. Personally, as a student pilot and future airline pilot, I’d rather spend longer to get all my hours done if it means earning way more money in the future.

[@andry954305]

@@videogameplayer0552 Don’t get me wrong, i don’t disagree with you BUT you have to call it what it is and not use safety as a scape goat for higher salaries.

[@AK-qc8ix]

What they didn’t mention was the government’s role in the shortage. Since 2013, both pilots are required to have Airline Transport Pilot (ATP) certificates. This requires the pilot to have at least 1500 hours of flight time. Before 2013, you only had to have a Commercial Certificate (250 hours min) to act as second-in-command. So instead of working hard for 4-6 months to obtain your commercial certificate then getting hired at a regional airline to begin your career, it’s now stretched closer to two years. This is only possible by doing more, I.e. more expensive, training to be a flight instructor to gain hours while making money to pay bills. There are operators of small aircraft, carrying cargo and passengers, who can hire the 250 hour commercial pilot but those jobs are few and far between. Once again we see the unintended consequences of the government saying it has to do something.

[@RyanSmith-ew6ne]

That’s the best thing to happen to the airlines. Get rid of the 1500 hr rule and the regionals will pay peanuts again!

[@AK-qc8ix]

@@RyanSmith-ew6ne they’ll pay peanuts for a 250 hour pilot. They only have to pay more because the pilots have to have more total time. Still doesn’t address the fact that people are not choosing to become pilots because of how long before they can start their career. it’s never a good thing for the government to create a scarcity in a good or service so the wages can go up.

[@apackwestbound5946]

For those reading this thread and may not know the "rule" (for pilot hiring, experience measured by flight hours) changed due to an airline accident. The accident flight was Colgan Air 3407 and it occurred on February 12, 2009. In that accident flight the pilots failed to respond correctly (greatly simplified for brevity). One of the pilots had been hired with legal but minimum experience. One of the consequences and end result of the extensive post accident investigation was to require the airlines to hire pilots with higher/more flight hours (flight experience to be raised to 1,500 hours from the previous 250 hour limit).

[@AK-qc8ix]

@@apackwestbound5946 You’re right, the captain was hired in 2005 with only 618 total flight hours. At the time of the accident, he had accumulated 3,379 total hours, 3,051 in turbine airplanes and 1,030 PIC. He only had 111 hours in theQ400, the plane flown that day, as he had transitioned from the Saab 340 three months prior. The first officer was hired in January of 2008 with 1,470 (roughly 1500) total hours and had flown 774 hours in the Q400 over the 13 months of employment, 663 more hours in type than the captain. In conclusion, both pilots were hired with,” legal but minimum experience”. However, the captain had more than enough flight hours the day of the accident to be a capable aviator. The first officer was hired with no better of a resume than is required now under the regulations that spawned from this accident. The rule would not have changed the experience level of the first officer. This accident is only associated with the rule changes in name only.(Flight times are from the NTSB accident report).

[@JeepCherokeeful]

@@RyanSmith-ew6neo, it’s just a trick to go green by the government and take way the ability for people to travel

[@rixsnug2056]

It's interesting that this issue is so widely talked about in the USA but not in Europe.

[@brettvaughn1058]

Yes. And we are reading more about tail strikes, missed approaches, taxi instructions executed incorrectly…. Captains now aren’t flying with another professional many times but finishing instruction that was incomplete due to lack of experience over time.

[@thomasryan5394]

We are watching the collapse of the Regional Airline model. And most people don’t know the airline they’re actually flying on. Eg: remember that guy dragged off of a United flight? It was actually Republic Airlines which works as United Express, Delta Connection, and American Eagle.

[@skyserf]

Not only was it not a United Airlines plane, he was dragged off by the Chicago Aviation Police rather than United personnel.

[@videogameplayer0552]

Why is it collapsing?

[@skyserf]

@@SeaHusker54 What do you mean by mainline carriers? No one is leaving legacies to go to Envoy.

[@skyserf]

@@SeaHusker54 What _mainline_ carriers. List names.

[@skyserf]

@@SeaHusker54 You don’t have any names? You’re making things up. *No one* is leaving legacy carriers to become pilots at Envoy for the pay. I fly for a legacy. I flew for the former American Eagle. The quality of life, pay, and benefits do not compare that’s why regionals are desperate and trying to use increased pay to lure pilots.

[@BrandonBakich-yi9fo]

As someone who is starting flight school this fall, I could not be more excited to advance through training and one day become a commercial pilot. There is so much opportunity in this industry (in Canada at least) and I wish it was as easy as just contacting an airline and saying “hey I would like to be a pilot for your company can you train me for a job”

[@jakehardy5997]

yeah i feel the same. im just starting my ppl but couldnt be more excited

[@SQUISHBUBBLE]

Hey man, Canadian here and I’ve been on the edge of starting flight school aswell but getting cold feet because of the economy and potential recession. Do you think you’d still train if the economy pulls back?

[@fjohnson9749]

You guys need to talk to some pilots that have been in the industry for a while. Research what all the majors have done to pilots over the decades. May change your mind. When you start out as a low time pilot you will put in long hours just to barely pay your bills, without student loan debt. You will have to share a dwelling with others as you will not be able to afford a dwelling on your own. Once you have the 1500hrs and get your ATP you may be lucky enough to get FO at a regional, life will get somewhat better but now you are at the bottom of the seniority list which means you get the worst of every single schedule, and there are several schedules. Now, done forget the engineers and the airlines have been trying to come up with pilotless/automated aircraft for decades. You may wish to research much more before dropping many many thousands and years of training. I advised my son to choose another profession. The airlines ie companies will crap on you and your job will likely be eliminated.

[@TheBestUFC]

@@fjohnson9749 bro convinced me

[@fernandomartinez-perez541]

Everything you said was true 20 years ago, not anymore. FOs at regionals in the US start at nearly six figures on day one.

[@TheEvanAlmightyy]

The FAA needs to lower the ATP hour requirements It makes zero sense. I make more at my security job than a flight instructor. I'm trying to get back into the cockpit but don't want to waste my time and money getting my CFI and doing a piss poor job at being one just to get up to 1500 hours, when I can go straight into Commercial Multi-Engine.

[@erauprcwa]

Honestly, if you're a "piss poor" instructor, that shows you have no interests in actually learning your job as a professional pilot. It's very obvious in the flight deck of an airline who was an instructor and who isn't a flight instructor.

[@6862ptc]

@erauprcwa Honestly, that's NOT true. As a 30+ year airline pilot and former flight instructor, it's not "very obvious" to tell the background of the pilot in your crew. You can be just as knowledgeable, diligent, and professional without ever being an instructor.

[@reubenmorris487]

There's no pilot shortage. The barrier to entry is stratospherically high (no pun intended). Lots of many young, smart, intelligent single men that can be trained as safe pilots.

[@powerliftingpilot]

There is a shortage of qualified pilots. Meaning there is a shortage. Currently ATP + Commercial license output is narrowly meeting demand, especially at the regional level (With the captain shortage). With the tsunami of pilot retirements coming in a few years (Its the reason the gov't extended the retirement age to 67 from 65), It will then further damage the shortage. There's much back and forth, but if you look at the independent studies and at various airports where planes sit, you will know there is a shortage if they cant even fill those seats to operate the sitting aircraft.

[@Eah2019]

I’ll gladly become a pilot if someone pays my schooling I’ll move to whatever state right now go through training and become pilot if someone else paying lol

[@bethanyflora6555]

women too. *

[@StraightUpJoshua]

I’m headed to flight school soon for the military, hopefully I can join the airlines myself one day!

[@nickfishburn5490]

Headed to a flight school similar to Thrust in the fall after a 5 year career in a different field! Yes, it is expensive and certainly a sacrifice, but it is the quickest civilian route I’ve seen to right-seating at an airline. Financing is typically available for those accelerated career pilot programs (typically Part 141), but with bonuses offered by regionals and recent pay scale bumps, one could theoretically pay their loans down rapidly with a few years of frugal living. Nothing worth doing is easy!

[@mikehunt7481]

the regional bonuses have disappeared. u only get a bonus if u have prior 121 time. I’d be wary about accelerated programs as their checkride pass rates are usually really low. Too many failed checkrides will really hinder your career.

[@cameronh5442]

Usually financing is like 12%APR on a 120k loan. They also don't talk about how many people drop out or get disqualified before getting hired by an airline

[@ElitistMagi]

How did you manage to fill up 1500 hours to get your ATP?

[@nickfishburn5490]

@@cameronh5442 Yep, mine is sitting at 16%. I plan to refinance shortly after my first paycheck after the program finishes.

[@IanHorsford]

Buyer beware…..part 141 schools are nothing but pilot farms selling a dream to the airlines. Everyone experience are different. These “aviation academy” sells dreams while with crazy prices. I’ll encourage anyone to explore part 61, where ur instructor is retired with nothing but time on his hands and he’s nothing trying to milk you to build time on ur dime.

[@erauprcwa]

Everything you said isn't entirely true also... as you stated "everyone experience are different"... I was a flight instructor and I got people coming in for checkout flights, ink still wet on their private cert. and they were some of the worst pilots ever, after flying with those 'retired wit nothing but time...' instructors who get so set in their ways they don't teach the most relevant and applicable knowledge and skills required in today's industry.

[@MrSkiman111]

Y’all, don’t listen to this guy. Homie really drank the flight training cool aid. Part 141 or 61 means literally nothing other than the time required for training. For every good flight school there’s a bad one, regardless of their certification.

[@SeaHusker54]

As someone that had a retired instructor milk me for time your statement is definitely not always true. Furthermore it all comes down to getting the hours ASAP. If you can make it through a feeder academy then that’s the fastest way to the right seat of a regional carrier.

[@MrSkiman111]

@@SeaHusker54 but what does your instructor milking you have to do with the specific certification from the school? Are you saying that a program is more or less likely to milk you because it’s either 61 or 141? Normally any school, regardless of certification, will allow you to fly with someone else if you feel you’re not getting thorough instruction. I did my private-commercial 141. My AMEL, CFI, and ASES were all from different 61 schools. Each experience was unique. Your experience in flight may be influenced by the certification the school has, but it’s not as big of a difference as everyone makes it out to be.

[@sturvinmurvin9408]

It is hard enough for pilots now with their medicals. Wonder what will happen when people find out about the potential heart issues from the jabby...

[@JohnSmith-hj9bd]

I’ve been told that all regional and major airlines have put a pause on hiring first officers. So is this need a need for captains?

[@gusrodriguez6026]

All the guys and gals at my flight school (Part 141) are moving to companies like Endeavor and Sky West after hitting the 1000 hour mark. 1500 hours for the part 61 folks

[@toddaulner5393]

When i heard what they make, i was surprised how low it was.

[@iannike22]

I think a lot of are willing to. But like mentioned the training and hours and money seems not worth the “time”. Maybe make those in house training and lower standers a bit. Like trade work pay for the process of becoming one so they can live while they train

[@theproudsoutherner587]

Im a 28 year old single male trying to pursue my dream of obtaining a private pilot certificate and the cost alone has been a big hindrance for me getting started, if there were incentives or financial aids to this training i believe it would open the door to many young aspiring adults such as myself

[@cityofabscissae]

They fogot another major impact causing a shortage of pilots: the move to smaller aircraft over the last couple decades! It now requires more pilots to fly the same amount of passengers.

[@baseballrockssb]

there is no chance your getting to 1500 hours in two years. and it doesnt take 300,000 dollars to get through a university, in addition you can also do it faster than 4 years

[@WinginWolf]

Oh you could definitely do it in 2 years or less once you have the CFI. You'll get your butt kicked but it's do-able.

[@baseballrockssb]

@@WinginWolf I agree once you have your CFI you could do it in two. But he made it sound like you could go from 0 to training complete in 9 months and then get the rest of your hours instructing in the remaining time.

[@youribenjamin9087]

They have to reduced and problem solved

[@videogameplayer0552]

@@baseballrockssbActually, you can. ATP flight school, I believe, has a program where people starting at 0 hours can get to CFI I believe in approximately nine months. It’s an extremely intense and fast paced program from what I’ve read, but some people find it worth it.

[@WestAirAviation]

Questions for you pro's: I have 237 hours TT and $15k to my name. What are the chances I can self-study using Kings / Sheppard, knock out the IR / CSEL written, and pass the IR / CSEL / CFI checkrides with a Part 61 op so that I can get paid to time build? Is that a feasible goal with only $15k if I don't need (much) time, just knowledge to pass these tests? And assuming the answer is yes, how long are people instructing nowadays before being picked up by a regional? ATP with 1,500 hours? Or is the average more like 3k hours now? My local FBO said yes to these questions and told me 1,500 for the regional hop, but I know they're in the business of staying in business and want my money as much as I do.

[@WinginWolf]

It depends. How much instrument time do you have? I can't really answer very much but if you're at 237 you probably won't need to time build very much once you get your IFR. $15K is /probably/ enough for IFR and CSEL given you have so much time already. CFI... get $8-10K. I don't know how people suggest (or how these fast-track schools) you can do it in so little time and money given the level of knowledge, responsibility, and division of attention you need. Same note, make sure your instructor has a syllabus they follow else you'll just be going back and forth A LOT and you'll feel you're going nowhere for the longest because you don't know where you are in the training because your progress is vague as heck. I'm strong, but I'm also going over 2 years... and I had $10K in the bank when I started. I'm over-budget.

[@WestAirAviation]

@@WinginWolf Great advice! I do have 13 Sim, 49 Simulated Instrument, 80 CX with a few 300nm+ trips, 56 instrument approaches, maybe 160 hours in a G1000 for the TAA. I want to do Sheppard and Kings School for the knowledge. It all sounds reasonable on paper, but in practice I'm worried I'll just run out of money and be right where I am right now: With an $80,000 logbook and no flying job.

[@TGraysChannels]

Get your commercial and multi-engine. Easy rating rides. Look around for a jump plane operation (Caravan or Twin Otter), find a guy that has a single pilot Citation but wants a pilot in the right seat. At some point you will need your instrument rating but it is a big hurdle with no rewards immediately afterwards. There are jobs for low time pilots but you have to think outside the box. And, consider National Guard bases in the middle of the nation. A lot of pilot jobs are in places people don't want to live, but they are out there.

[@todayisagoodday5027]

Good morning this is your Captain ChatGpt speaking.

[@JB_Hobbies]

$300K for an undergraduate degree?? Yea, I don’t think many people are cross shopping Harvard and flight school.

[@Robert-uo6qi]

Sooooo, Zero mention of the decades of Super Low Pilot Pay? I quite as a Regional FO right after COVID.. I made $30K a year flying a 79 seat regional jet..

[@nsant]

What can a new regional pilot, with 1500hrs, expect to make these days?

[@Fantazzim]

@@nsant About $60/hr starting plus hiring bonuses. You are paid for about 70hrs a month of work. You don’t get paid to commute into work and you don’t get paid while there is a weather or maintenance delay. If the engines aren’t turn’n you aren’t earn’n. When a friend of mine started at a regional he was making $17,500 a year, for the first year. They preyed on young pilots who could live with mom and dad while making shit pay.

[@baseballrockssb]

@@Fantazzim most of the regionals are over 90/hr right now but its only a two year temporary pay rate so keep that in mind. Mesa is at 100/hr

[@nsant]

@Fantazzim I am a recent private pilot (Mainly for fun, not the start of a career change). I am about to start instrument training. My work will pay for 6k of that. They will pay 16k for commercial, 6k for multi, 4k for cfi, 2k for cfii, and 8k for atp. I make over 100k a year now with a little overtime in the midwest. I'm not sure if it's worth the career change at 34 years old or not with the extra money I'll get for training.

[@baseballrockssb]

@@nsant you’ll definitely have a slight dip in pay while your flight instructing and your first year or two at the regionals but second and third year you’ll be making the same or more and it will keep going up from there. So realistically your at the regionals in let’s call it 4 years depending on how hard you work. By 40 your gtg and you’ve got 25 years of raking in cash. LCCs are a great option as well. Most pay higher than regionals and you get get hired with low time.

[@darylb5564]

In America if someone doesn’t check every box we think important we will just pass and do without. That’s fine but for the love of god let’s not cry while we are doing without. I retired from an airline and we knew this was coming in 2008. The government and the airlines had 15 years to address this issue and practically nothing was done. This mess did not happen by accident… it was totally man made

[@ellainastorms]

Do you think they really want more pilots at this point or is it more of an imploding of our society?

[@darylb5564]

@@ellainastorms I’m sure there’s some airlines that would like to have more and some that would not. It’s a funny business

[@LLH7202]

It's not necessary to go the Part 141 Certificated Flight school route, which is epensive. You can get just as effective training using smaller Part 61 schools and doing a lot of studying on your own. I got all of my certificates and ratings that way--all the way to ATP. I know some of the regulations regarding ATP have changed, but everything else is doable.

[@IanHorsford]

You’re absolutely correct, those 141 schools have become pilot farms with substandard training along with instruction(time builders) looking to build time on poor I’ll-trained students. I wish more students will explore part 61.

[@willtisdale7543]

@@IanHorsfordbingo

[@nickguernsey9093]

Part 141 is cheaper unless you go to a bad school. I was a CFI by 215 hours because of 141 but if you do part 61 you will need over 250 hours

[@KuostA]

how much are u paying in total?

[@nickguernsey9093]

@@KuostA All these costs include Check ride and supplies as well… Private $12000 IFR $12000 Commercial Multi Engine (Initial) $34000 Commercial Single (add-on) $2000 CFI $3000 CFII $1700 All in around $67,000 Grand (so hit near minimums on all ratings which you can do if you study hard and come to lessons prepared) I did 141 for all and got my CFI and CFII under part 61 because there is no hour minimum for those ones. Included was 33 hours multi time which is all the multi I need for my ATP

[@UnionPacific1997]

Change the mental health and medical standards

[@lovevideos1699]

So there’s hope for me !

[@jamesrussell3272]

Aeronautics degrees from.universities can be admitted at 1,000h flight hours. Also, not to forget that only U.S. 🇺🇲 citizens can be commercial pilot in the U.S.

[@shrik1234567]

If you pay wages like peanuts then why people would choose flying as profession?

[@davidhoward5687]

This just makes me want to start flight training sooner, I'm 34 and will be going to ATP this fall.

[@everolarcherii5517]

How’s it going for you so far. I’m same age and thinking of joining atp soon

[@jeromes5141]

I'm here, almost 400 hrs Total time. Time building is expensive.

[@TimAyro]

There are plenty of pilots. There are not enough experienced pilots, aka Captains. I'm an airline plot and I just sit around on reserve a lot :)

[@WinginWolf]

I'd love to be in your shoes. Your clock is ticking. Mine ain't. Frozen for 5 years, going to 6.

[@zer0coolninja887]

Still waiting also

[@gustafpeyron]

Yea it's funny. I'm just sitting on reserve never getting a call. kinda nice tbh

[@CrazyForCooCooPuffs]

Get bachelor degree, 80-100k for CPL, have to drop my 50/hr union job to work as a flight instructor for around 2 years to make time, get hired by 2nd rate regional and make nothing, years later finally land a job at a big company finally making good money. That's like a 10 year time line, I'm 31, too risky.

[@redfoxtactical8425]

Especially when you can make 120k a year with 5 years experience and a computer science degree.

[@BJJsancin]

Can confirm computer science graduate here.. tired of coding so looking into learning to fly.. turns out it’s a terrible idea. I’m going to do PPL and instrument and enjoy flying as a hobby instead.

[@XyrousCooper]

The 1500 hour rule is honestly a lot, however going to an accredited 4 year University with the flight program will actually lower the hour requirement to 1000 hours with the R-ATP rules. It definitely makes a lot of sense if you are coming out of high school knowing you want to be a pilot since you can start at 18 and become an instructor in 2-3 years and maybe even graduate early so that you can get to the airlines at the minimum age requirement. I train at Elizabeth City State University and on top of the R-ATP advantage, the tuition here is super low, $500 per semester in state and $2500 per semester out of state. To get Private, Instrument, Commercial, CFI, and Multi only costs $33,000 and the school will hire you to instruct so you can time build to 1,000 hours and go to an airline, which is also smooth since we currently have partnerships with United Aviate, Delta Propel, JetBlue, PSA, and Republic, not to mention they frequently visit campus and help invest in the next generation of aviators we are pumping out here. Even though ECSU is a 4 year, people can complete the flight training in 2 years and if you graduate early as well you can be out of here just as quick or even faster than the traditional flight school route. Elizabeth City State University and other R-ATP accredited universities are definitely some amazing options to look at.

[@WinginWolf]

Just my 2 cents, some people hate it being called the 1500 hour rule instead of the ATP rule (as much as it is semantics given the tallest requirement for the ATP is the whopping 1500 hours total time).

[@tTenKay]

33k from 0- comercial multi? Where??

[@XyrousCooper]

@@tTenKay Elizabeth City State University in North Carolina. That’s just the flight lab fees which get you your license. But you’d still have to be a full time student and it’s necessary so you can get the degree and reap the benefits of the 1000 hour R-ATP. It’s still cheaper than a flight school and you can still get it done in 2 years if you relocate in the area to train so that you can fly all year round.

[@Zenrei940]

So.. 200+ Total Hours for $33,000 (From Private to CFI/Multi)? That's either a scam or the university is paying the bulk of the training, under a contract.

[@FlywithMikey96]

33k? CAP

[@gillesbueno1153]

I’m 63 today,got my commercial wings and flight instructor ratings in 1990, logging 500 hours. I heard about this issue in the last 33 years. Lots of bu….

[@joshupmeyer7318]

The cost is insane but the starting wage makes the investment worth it

[@craigb4449]

The cost to get trained and certified is really high. Going up to $100k in debt doesn’t seems worth it

[@jeffgrace7266]

Why is no one talking about the portion of FLT requirements that start at the end of FLT school that get you the minimum time to apply at the airlines. This is the missing puzzle link.

[@MalfosRanger]

It’s easier to help schools push students through commercial training and airlines pull commercial pilots through the ATP training than bridge the gap between the two.

[@xiomarapinales6277]

It is super.iinterainting ❤

[@PNWBLUEBARON]

As a pilot who has a commercial license and has shown commitment and dedication. I can’t get a loan to complete my school. So I take out equity loans on my paid off cars. It’s a lower interest rate to compared to like a 7-9% rate that the schools offer which is absolutely insane

[@Storeeez]

Hey there, why are you have trouble getting a loan? I'm looking into becoming a pilot and will need to take a loan too from Sallie Mae, Meritize, etc. Hopefully I can get some scholarships too.

[@PNWBLUEBARON]

@@Storeeez credit is good just haven’t got a loan out in forever that was big. 755 credit score

[@smiskowiak]

I still say that any tech college or university that is within 15 miles of a municiple or commercial airport with a flight school should be required to offer piloting as a major. Tech schools could offer as event pilot or agriculture pilot, and universities could offer commercial aviation. This way students can use scholarships, grants, and student loans to pay for pilot training.

[@jonasbaine3538]

Need a National high speed train network

[@meridian788wf2]

Help me out with financing, I’ll fly tomorrow. VA turned me down for my GI BILL for 80-100k for flight training but offered me $500k to be a doctor WTF

[@boaa588]

It's a challenge only because they require that vaccination

[@paulswank5433]

9 minutes but not one reference to the 1500 hr rule change.

[@tatertotbot]

The air force academy is not filling their pilots slots as easily too

[@skyking6989]

Airlines dont pay nearly as much as they used to either

[@SeaHusker54]

Many current Airline/Commercial pilots with heavily disagree with this opinion: Have Airlines find and recruit Private/Instrument rated pilots that can’t afford the risk of taking out a 100K loan. In my case I hold a PPL but couldn’t continue on with my training or flying time due to cost/life circumstances. I’m married now 3 years after getting my license and work full time in the aviation industry. My only options are to find a flight school and train on the weekends. If companies would provide a salary/housing for trainees with already completing the entry level license you’d see a lot more interest. This will never happen of course.

[@hichamn8373]

Same old technics of flights school marketing using news company about pilot shortage and how a school in a state by name of has the solution… that why every year it’s always shortage and hiring message repeating itself…

[@zaimeandreado8718]

I would love to become a pilot but the problem is the flight school is so expensive like a $100 k and I have bills to pay that’s the problem anybody can help where can I find a cheapest flight school? thanks

[@thanos8039]

I’ve always wanted to be an airline pilot but I got into some trouble and ended up with a felony at 19 for some drugs but I got withheld adjudication, could I still become a pilot?

[@Kermit_the_DILF]

The airlines won’t take you if you have anything at or above the seriousness of a DUI or DWI. With the WA you got, it does give you hope of employment so that’s good. However, when it comes to the airlines, they will ask you if you’ve ever been charged with a crime. If you answer no, but give your story and be honest about what happened, they might actually appreciate it. Airlines love honesty. If you try and hide it, however, and say no without ever mentioning the story and they find out about it, you can terminated from the job. Airlines usually find out from the stories I’ve heard.

[@RiemsAI]

Its time for remote piloting to be introduced. this will reduce the amount of training cost for new pilots. Its either remote pilot or AI pilot. I dont think AI pilot will work as passengers will find it too risky. Remote piloting is feasable because of the current communication technology. Military has already used drone planes everywhere. The big question is, would you feel safe if the pilot is not iin the same plane with you?

[@petrovichbauer5105]

There are plenty of pilots. But there are only so many slots at FX an UP, the only airlines worth working for.

[@ronaldlindsey6058]

If you're really curious, listen to Capt. Sullenbergers speech to Congress. He laid it bare for all to see.

[@peredavi]

Rausch Said pilots used to come out of the military and then go to the airlines. Incorrect statement I was hired for my first part 121 job in 1990 me and my fellow pilots went to aviation colleges. I retired at age 59 from a major air freight company in 2020. I am very happy to be retired, and I am very busy. There is zero chance that enough new pilots will be trained and get the hours required to go to a FAR 121 Airline. Generation Z is not interested in working. There’s a shortage and all the trades including airframe and powerplant mechanics The narrative in the US has been get a college degree. Many people got college degrees and useless liberal arts degrees.

[@user-mp5fm3ik3c]

Barriers to training like cost needs to be address

[@kv2819]

Recruiters desks at the legacies have stacks of resumes from qualified pilots waiting for the call every day and only getting taller. One of the legacy airlines reported a new hire class of 100+ pilots. There absolutely isn’t a pilot shortage.

[@AK-qc8ix]

You’re right, not at the majors. But the majors requirements are the same as the regionals. You only need a commercial certificate and a pulse. Five years ago, you needed a college degree and at least 1000 hours of PIC time in turboprop airplane’s, and an ATP before the majors would look at you. Now they say college preferred, 1000 hours PIC preferred, and commercial certificate. Alaska Airlines is one that when you started the online application, it would ask you one question, do you have a four year degree. If you answered yes, you would go on with the application. If you answered no, it would say thank you for applying. Now they say commercial certificate with a lot of preferred items.

[@supertrooper7273]

We need more accessible training. It’s a pain in the ass to rent a reliable plane where I’m at

[@MarkWongMD]

Tons of vets want to do it but are stuck in the military with an absolutely ABSURD flying helicopter/pilot mandatory duty service now. 12 year mandatory just to fly helicopters. By that point you are burnt out. Blame the DOD for the shortage.

[@ryanphillips5688]

Get rid of the stupid 1500 hour job security rule and make flight rentals cheaper

[@skyserf]

How do you propose to make renting aircraft cheaper?

[@ab98boricua]

Do you think getting rid of the 1500 hour rule will ruin pilot contracts and pay ? Genuinely curious

[@videogameplayer0552]

Why get rid of the rule? The rule is the main reason why pilots in the U.S. earn so much right now. As a student pilot, I’d rather have to spend a lot more time building hours if it means significantly higher pay.

[@starloszelson4541]

How are you going to make rental cheaper?

[@justfun287]

That hour marker is there for safety, and there are exceptions to it that can lower it all the way to 750, but 1000 for most civilians

[@thelowmein9143]

like every other field, its the cost, make it cheaper to go to ATP school, i really think it is that simple.

[@FM-ig3th]

It's a little disconcerting to hear "we're desperate for pilots". It dosen't bring comfort to a passenger when you're on a North Pacific route headed to the far east, dead of night, over water and you hear the cabin crew say..."we have an emergency".....

[@gatelice3854]

Strongly considering quitting my 9-5 job to start flying…

[@tuftedkibbles2486]

Iv been trying to save up money to go to flight school for 2 years now and im only about half way it costs $245 an hour at the cheapest flight school near me and im going to need around 300 to get my CFI

[@zaimeandreado8718]

where is that located and what state?

[@sebrofc]

Well, definitely makes sense to charge student pilots 100K+ to become a pilot and also make financing the venture nearly impossible without a 770+ fico or a solid co-signer. They also disallow Stafford loans for flight training. You need to have wealthy parents or nicer family than I have to make something like this to work out of High School. Best of luck!

[@Vincent12]

There’s a captain pilot, not a first officer problem

[@szihai]

What happened during Covid that caused the shortage? Explain that first.

[@mikeloughnane5436]

Do like the European air lines do they train their pilot's

[@ReveredDead]

I would love to tryout but most flight schools are $100,000 at a minimum. And military require bachelors degrees. Most students are going to college to become nurses, engineers, etc. Military is last on their mind. Too bad the military will be perpetually short on pilots rather than creating a system allowing qualified candidates with associates degrees and high GPA’s to go through OCS and flight training.

[@ElSer5.0]

Even then having a college degree can only take you so far. You still have to be selected for OCS/OTS and getting a pilot slot on top of that. It’s very competitive and last I heard the pipeline is backed up for years. And that’s if you’re even fit for flying.

[@davibe2304]

I would love to become a pilot but it’s so damn high it seems impossible

[@laaaliiiluuu]

If the airline pays for my ATPL I would gladly become a pilot. But with all the volatility in that industry going 120k into debt? No thanks.

[@alexreddragon88]

Exactly... even if u get your 1500hrs your not gurant4ed a job. So either the shortage is bs or 5he airlines got their heads stuck up u know where

[@threebigideas3488]

Shortage of doctors and skilled nursing as well. We just aren't as robust of a country as we once were.

[@crashtestdummy2337]

Then you need to find ways to decrease the cost of flight training and increae pay to incentivize it. This is ridiculous that we keep talking around the nuances of the problem instead of actually fixing it.

[@nadiatheginger]

I’ve seen enough episodes of Air Disasters to know this doesn’t end well…. Experienced pilots are important even if these planes practically fly themselves. There’s always a risk that there will be a situation that requires the pilot to fly manually and if they don’t have the proper experience, it will equal disaster.

[@thompsonsmith000]

Hello dear How are you doing today?

[@Listen321]

Am with you

[@ghostrunner2138]

you need to be experienced. Thats why the training is so expensive. you may be able to get your certification in as little as 9 months (probably more), but you still need 1500 hours of flight experience before you even start flying a jet and that takes years

[@ClarityClipz]

Primary Issue, high training cost, low salary :)

[@TheRusschannel]

you have to pay $150k+ for your license and then you make $15/hr for the 1st couple years.. so WHY?

[@menguardingtheirownwallets6791]

In the 70s, every guy wanted to drive a car and a lot of guys wanted to get their pilot's license and fly an airplane. Now half of all guys don't even want a car, they don't want to drive a car at all, and forget about wanting to fly an airplane, you couldn't pay them enough money to want to do that. Its just a different generation out there. Better find a way to automate flying because in 20 years there will be almost no new pilots out there.

[@MidNightRider2001]

Bring back the 747.

[@king.kthebest6158]

I’m so confused, as a student going into aviation in college, I hear left and right about over-qualified pilots who don’t receive any responses or interviews from regionals let alone the big boy airlines but then they want to preach about the shortage we’re in? Someone fill me in.

[@tothemax9850]

Agreed man

[@tothemax9850]

I hate when I tell people that I am training to be an Airline Pilot and they tell me, “what a great time with the massive shortage, you’ll get hired right on!” People are so mislead and don’t understand what the real situation is. Even I don’t understand it.

[@TexasZ71]

You need 1500 hours for your ATP.. don’t even argue if you can’t get past that part or have to look up what ATP means. And if you do.. you’ll understand. Guzzle all that media down and bend that safety line the same processes and catastrophes will repeat. I do my part by teaching and learning real-world “what-if” situations every flight to give and to gain as much experience as I can to keep everyone safe in the back.

[@peled1gaming401]

thats why I'm studying to be a pilot ❤

[@godinezfer1906]

Does that mean cheaper tickets?

[@takfong8092]

Do your due diligence and don't entirely fall for what media feeds you. There may be a shortage of pilot but doesn't mean the candidate pool is small that anybody has the min. hours would get picked up. Go on forums, ask around the pilot community, and you would be astounded by how many pilots would tell you they have 500, 1300 hours under their belt got rejected by airlines. One thought comes to mind is that airline wants to increase their candidate pool and pick their best pilots out of it, and flight school acts as agents to create that candidate pool. Flight schools just want you to pay 100k to get all the ratings and their job is done. The ones who won't make it will be the ones who won't make it, just like any other industry.

[@dave0351]

500 hours is vastly short of ATP minimums. If 500 hour pilots are complaining about not getting picked up by 121 operators they are sadly misplacing their woes.

[@andrewpark7288]

grant foreign pilots working visa to be able to fly in US

[@mahdi4277]

Good news for pilot students

[@matwest711]

I’m a pilot with my private, instrument, and commercial ratings. But I’m stuck. I don’t have enough hours for a flying job and I don’t have enough money for more hours. This far becoming a pilot has been a huge mistake. Hopefully that changes and I think it will. I’m so close.

[@code_man69]

Have you though about being a CIF?

[@realtalk1310]

The situation you're in right now is the reason why I stopped my flight training, never before has the future bee so uncertain.

[@matwest711]

@@realtalk1310 smart choice

[@matwest711]

@@code_man69 I’d love to. I can’t afford anything rn

[@MalfosRanger]

Sadly, it’s easier to help schools push students through commercial training and airlines pull commercial pilots through ATP training than bridge the gap. Not everyone is capable or comfortable instructing students to get to the next stage. I hope you find a way through the doldrums.

[@healthfitness9055]

Same as the trucking industry always a shortage but so many want to do the job….. it’s a money problem