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Examining the Report on UMC Disaffiliating Churches

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PlainSpoken

PlainSpoken

Күн бұрын

The Lewis Center for Church Leadership recently released a report on the characteristics of the churches who are disaffiliating from the United Methodist denomination. This report concludes that these churches are:
* Mainly Male Led
* Majority White
* Overwhelmingly Southern
What is the implication that this study is making? Why are these some of the specific things that the study was looking for? Pastor Jeffrey breaks down this study and if it can stand up to scrutiny.
Show Notes:
UM News Article:
www.umnews.org...
LC Study:
www.churchlead...
UM Data Website:
umdata.org

Пікірлер: 42
@joer5627
@joer5627 Жыл бұрын
I’m pretty much done with the lack of understanding by UMC upper management. The way in which they are treating UMC Clergy is appalling. After 38 years as a member I’m about done with this disaster.
@BamaSu1
@BamaSu1 Жыл бұрын
Coming from being a former “lifelong” Methodist, I “disaffiliated “ from the UMC a few years ago. The UMC does not enforce the discipline of the church, does not believe that the Bible is inerrant, and is not being led by Bible-believing ministers. The UMC can vote to vote or not vote regarding “disaffiliation”; there should have never been a “vote” on anything to start with… Either you believe and follow the Bible, or you don’t. Those who are dragging their feet on disaffiliation are going down a dangerous path.
@m.mitchell1825
@m.mitchell1825 Жыл бұрын
Going through six or seven languages means translations lose something each time. Creating words and translations is wacko. The point is to learn how to live your life and love others. UMC forgot this a long time ago.
@natashatomlinson4548
@natashatomlinson4548 Жыл бұрын
How was all this not totally expected ? As a UMC pastor for over 25 years , I got to the point where I could predict what the powers-that-be would do before THEY even knew what they would do. It’s totally expected that all those who disaffiliate will be denigrated by them. They do that when understandably disgruntled pastors leave ( cuz it can’t possibly be them!) , I mean, the UMC across the board does this routinely . So why would it not be totally expected that when many more churches end up going through the disaffiliation process than they expected, they get defensive and promote the “ there’s something wrong with those people leaving “ narrative ? I remind you again that this ordeal the UMC is going through is not a conservative / liberal issue nor is it a homosexual/ heterosexual issue at its crux. It is a TOXIC DYSFUNCTIONAL ORGANIZATION issue . It’s also a LOVE issue. The “ homosexual issue” is just the issue that was finally big enough that the dysfunctional toxic organization that has been the UMC from its inception that it could not be dismissed or swept under the rug like they usually do with potentially institutionally threatening issues. As a “ liberal evangelical “ myself I think you may forget that real leftists detest , for example, Hillary Clinton’s politics as much or more than any Trumper. I’m left-leaning and all for gay marriage but I’m all for disaffiliation - get out while you can as as fast as you can!-so don’t put people like me in with a bunch of virtue-signaling, politically correct institutionalists. Thanks.
@williamdevlin366
@williamdevlin366 Жыл бұрын
You’re an open minded liberal. I’m a Trump, ex NY lefty, watching things in my UMC in a small town in NC. Very few people there are able to sit & talk with me. Maybe just one. You’re advice is very good! Thank you & God Bless!!!
@glendagaskin151
@glendagaskin151 Жыл бұрын
I ask this humbly but how do you believe Jesus is who He said He is He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. No homosexual will inherit the kingdom of God. You can’t leave the dying to drown without throwing a lifeline. Jesus is nowhere saying following Him would be easy. They hated Me and they will hate you. He gave absolutes and we must choose.
@wanda520
@wanda520 3 ай бұрын
@@glendagaskin151It’s very unloving to allow a person to continue in sin without warning them. Satan is applauding what is happening in the church.
@elmcoachingandconsulting1295
@elmcoachingandconsulting1295 Жыл бұрын
One of the factors hindering congregations primarily made of up POC is the financial costs of doing so. In the central Texas area that is definitely true of some African American congregations and in my area (Rio Texas) it is definitely true of many smaller Hispanic congregations. Also as to the regional differences, the conferences in the north central and northeast present WAY more obstacles financially and otherwise for congregations to disaffiliate.
@dalethomas5392
@dalethomas5392 Жыл бұрын
Of course disaffiliating churches have majority white memberships. The UMC in the US is in the ballpark of 85%-90% white. So it is all but an inevitability that the majority of disaffiliating churches will have a majority white membership. The same exact point could be made about those churches that decided to stay UMC. "Statistically speaking, churches that choose to stay UMC have majority white memberships." Disaffiliating churches are more likely to have a male pastor? The same rule as above would seem to apply. For a number of reasons, females are underrepresented in the clergy. In other words, for several reasons, there are more male pastors than female pastors. So, again, of course we would expect to see that disaffiliating churches are more likely to have male clergy. Same could be said of those staying. "Statistically speaking, churches that choose to stay UMC are more likely to have male pastors than not." Less likely to have an active elder as pastor? Well, as many traditionalists will attest, this is likely because the institution as a whole in the US has done a pretty good job of ensuring that traditionalist pastors don't get passed up the ranks to become elder. In my Conference for example, the spread of traditionalist elder to non-traditionalist elder is in the ballpark of 10-15% to 85-90%. You don't get that spread by accident. The spread among LLPs is significantly less lopsided. As for disaffiliating churches being mostly from the South, someone pointed the following out: "Well, the entire North Eastern Jurisdiction, as far as I know, has not held a single special session. They've all waited for 2023 ACs. I would say that would account for a large part of the overwhelming 'South.'"
@wanda520
@wanda520 3 ай бұрын
Never forget the many martyrs who gave their lives for standing up against heresy.Standing for Biblical truth isn’t always easy.
@nojoke420
@nojoke420 Жыл бұрын
You have a far more generous viewpoint on Jeremy Smith than I do
@allenschneider1847
@allenschneider1847 Жыл бұрын
This is an amazing analysis and response. Well done. My understanding is that the Tulsa Korean congregation has now voted to disaffiliate. I'm wondering too what the Hispanic churches are doing?
@Guinevere.625
@Guinevere.625 Жыл бұрын
I’m not “from the South” not even close. And I’m fairly “liberal.” Yet, it makes my stomach turn to hear someone addressing God as “oh great queer one…” These people have completely lost the plot, in my opinion. I was baptized, confirmed and married in the Methodist Church. (Before our name was changed to United Methodist Church) I must stress that for 18 years, I had NO IDEA that I could have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It just wasn’t happening there. PS: I don’t like Trump either. But these folks are lost. God only knows what they even want with the Church. They think the Bible is wrong and “God is queer.” What more is there to say?
@KimMichelleSterrett
@KimMichelleSterrett Жыл бұрын
I've often wondered why, after all these years, the United Methodist Church has not tried to reconcile with AME and AMEZ denominations?
@plainspokenpod
@plainspokenpod Жыл бұрын
I can't really speak to what may or may not have happened behind the scenes. The UMC was big on ecumenism (combining and/or working with other denominations) until our merger with the EUB in 1968. I think we started realizing at that point that combining with any other tradition would require a lot of compromise (not getting our way). Black and white churches have been trying to combine for decades. It is hard. White groups have a hard time not getting our way. We are used to it, especially when we provide the bulk of the money. Black groups have a hard time validating the white religious experience as legitimate, for various reasons. The UMC's undergirding theology for a long time has been centered on affinity groups and marketing. Can't do interracial stuff based on that. And with the rise of antiracism, it is now almost racist to try to be of one mind with people of other races. Everything got inverted. Anyway, I'm hopeful that the GMC will engage in such conversations with other ethnic majority denominations, in earnest. If Christians are to convincingly make the case that we are a new people group under the lordship of Christ, then we need to be under the same administrative structure, with a shared budget, worshiping together. Let's pray for that!
@Keycity60
@Keycity60 Жыл бұрын
I think you may be overlooking the biggest reason as to why traditionalists are leaving the platform of the United Methodist Church so much more readily than progressives. Quite simply, when the traditionalists step onto the new platform, they take steps to make sure it is built on the stable foundation of scripture. For centuries the Methodist Church has stood on that foundation and the UMC has been living on that inheritance. One could be forgiven for getting the impression from the Weems article that attempting to disaffiliate is something only uneducated traditionalists do. If progressives stepped away from the UMC to build their own platform, what would they use as a foundation? Fortunately, there is an excellent example available of how progressives would approach it. The “Liberation Methodist Connexion,” was a group of progressives in the UMC who were upset that in 2019 the UMC voted to remain traditional in regard to homosexuality in the clergy. In 2020 they began efforts to form a separate church in which the foundation was every social justice platitude imaginable. On their website their membership list is replete with those with advanced degrees. By 2021 they realized that, although it was great fun to get together as a group and cast stones at the narrow minded traditionalists, they could not tolerate each other when they were all in the same room without a common enemy. It turned into exactly what one might expect… competing interest groups, each claiming to be more oppressed than any other in the room and demanding commensurate tribute. I'm not sure if they have totally disbanded. The last post I can find from them is from 2021.
@plainspokenpod
@plainspokenpod Жыл бұрын
Yeah they disbanded. They actually made a statement about it, validating a lot of what you said here.
@JamesAllmond
@JamesAllmond Жыл бұрын
The phrase is word salad. Had to add, as a political liberal who is a member of a disaffiliated church, I find the politically conservative/liberal talk pertaining religious matters just a wee bit disturbing. Odd, I am not alone and do find it a bit odd agreeing with folks on religious matters I literally never do politically. Not surprising, just not used to agreeing, they aren't either. Kinda like it.
@tjsokkerplayer
@tjsokkerplayer Жыл бұрын
The UMC is losing core members who are strongly committed to upholding God's Word. These are the very members who are very giving of their time, finances, and other resources to the church. Those that are left, are they committed to God's Word or their own personal worldview that is influenced by outside cultural movements? If its the latter as I suspect, is the UMC going to have enough, if any members committed to rightfully studying the Word of God? They will collapse upon thenselves if the Bibke isnt leading them.
@glendagaskin151
@glendagaskin151 Жыл бұрын
I’m interested in your work. I’m Baptist and my home church left SBC many years ago. Churches should be autonomous I believe because the model should be the early church. Small and committed to the great commission. You have to come to the cross one at a time.
@plainspokenpod
@plainspokenpod Жыл бұрын
I'm glad to hear your thoughts, Glenda. My reading of the NT is that the early church was actually networked and mutually accountable, hence the Council at Jerusalem, shared collections, shared authority structure. Not looking to argue with you so much as explain the presuppositions I'm bringing with me as I speak to these things.
@LeDavidMorris
@LeDavidMorris Жыл бұрын
Several of the largest churches in the Memphis Conference are disaffilliation. Three of these big churches would have membership equql to 150 of very small churches,
@Newsy80
@Newsy80 Жыл бұрын
Excellent!!
@ctrawick3
@ctrawick3 Жыл бұрын
I’m not even a Methodist, but this issue and subsequent nightmare results from one thing; is God’s Word the cornerstone or is it not? It is no more complicated than that. Itching ears are real.
@MartzMimic
@MartzMimic Жыл бұрын
I agree there’s little to be gleaned from this. I would have liked Growth and Decline to look at more than 2018-2019, especially since UMC worship attendance in the US declined 24 percent (21.5 percent in Oklahoma) from 2009-2019. We’ve let the human sexuality debate blind us to the fact we’re bleeding profusely. That’s going to be as huge a problem for the GMC as it is the UMC.
@natashatomlinson4548
@natashatomlinson4548 Жыл бұрын
Exactly . I’m all for disaffiliation- the UMC is rotten to the core-but I think too many people forming the GMC are living a pipe dream. The “ can two people who love each other get married even if they are of the same sex” boat has already sailed for 80% of the people under 40, and it’s not coming back. That’s going to be a millstone around the neck of the GMC . Plus , they act like they haven’t learned anything from the failures of how the autocratic structure of the UMC has strangled the life out of it for a couple centuries now and are STILL going to have bishops. Blows my mind smh
@MartzMimic
@MartzMimic Жыл бұрын
@@natashatomlinson4548 I wholly disagree with you. I know so many wonderful people who are part of the UMC, and people I love who’ve gone to the GMC. It’s not rotten; it’s just not agile enough to change an out-dated, top-heavy structure. And yes, my church is voting to disaffiliate because we actually disagree with the BOD and the mandatory punishments. But we accept - and welcome - people having differing opinions. We don’t have to agree on everything to be able to love one another while we share God’s love and bring hope to the world.
@natashatomlinson4548
@natashatomlinson4548 Жыл бұрын
@@MartzMimic I think I should’ve been more specific . I’m not saying all the people in the UMC are “ rotten to the core . “ As a retired pastor, I know fully well that 90-95% of all churches are predominated by “ good people.” Even the worst churches I served the good salt of the earth folks much outnumbered the “ rotten” folks. In fact, if the good people were not present most “ bad churches” would implode quite quickly .I’m thinking of a particular church I once served right now that this very thing is happening to. All the good folks that REALLY kept the church together are now dead leaving only 15 or so of the people who used them for decades. I knew 25 years ago exactly how that church would die - just like it’s doing right before everybody’s eyes now. It was a rotten , would never grow, selfish church AS A WHOLE to its community it pretended to “ serve.” Was it “ rotten” because of the good people who supported it and loved it all those decades ? No. It was “ rotten” because of those they allowed to run it into the ground for decades. Did some good redeeming things happen in that church ? Of course . Every now and then. It would’ve died sooner otherwise . But, still, on a whole , it had always been a pretty ineffectual dead on the vine type of church, even with good people holding it together . But bad people can turn good things into “ rotten” things if good people aren’t vigilant enough not to let it happen. . It’s what they do. And bad leaders and a dysfunctional church polity , like the very autocratic way the UMC “ does church”, can take a bunch of good people and turn them into “ rotten church “ enablers. Churches tend to die very slowly. I’m constantly surprised when I find out some churches I’m familiar with are still holding services. But when they finally die, they DIE. The UMC hemorrhage is NEVER going to end . It’s the “ walking dead” right now. The “ greatest” generation it depended upon for so long , many of them good people, are now half dead . The Silent Generation behind them is breathing down their neck . The Boomers, who the UMC never did much of a job reaching out to ( an abject failure really ), very soon will be left to keep propping up these UMC churches the next twenty years cuz the Xers, millennials and Zers aren’t darkening their doors now and sure won’t in the future. Look at the dying UMC annual conferences out in the West, look at the British Methodist Church - in time that’s exactly how the entire denomination in America will look in 50-75 years. And that’s among a population in America that has grown exponentially since the UMC was formed in 1968. The leadership , the elites that the good people have allowed to run the denomination ( into the ground) are rotten. Yes, well-placed rotten apples CAN ruin the whole barrel . And all I’m saying about the GMC is that they should know better than to drag toxic top-heavy , 16th century, autocratic UMC church polity into a denomination that’s trying to reach out to people in the post-modern 21st century . Young people now, or in 2050, will want absolutely nothing that smells of autocracy. I’d bet my bottom dollar on it. These GMC people have watched the UMC utterly fail with that polity right in front of their eyes - and yet they are dragging that Trojan horse into their new denomination. Blows my mind smh.
@davewil3
@davewil3 Жыл бұрын
The churches leaving the UMC that believe what the Bible says about marriage are also more likely to believe what the Bible says about pastors must be male. 1 Timothy 2:11-12. Those that are able to ignore what the Bible says about woman preachers, use the same reasoning to ignore what the Bible says about marriage, gay sex, and often on to even the need for salvation.
@rogerriggs6055
@rogerriggs6055 Жыл бұрын
MABY IM INCORECT, HAS SOME PASTORS SAYING THAT JESUS CHRIST IS NOT THE SON OF GOD,IF I HEARD THIS WRONG PLEASE LET ME KNOW BEEN IN THE METHODIST CHURCH ALL MY LIFE, THIS IS A NIGHTMARE
@plainspokenpod
@plainspokenpod Жыл бұрын
Roger, there are thousands of UMC pastors in our denomination, many of whom are not solid at all theologically. I'm certain there are more than 1,000 UMC pastors across the nation who do not believe Jesus was the Son of God, or even divine. However, most do not advertise those beliefs. Many use the same words as conservatives, but they mean very different things. Many pastors, including at least one bishop (Oliveto) believe that Jesus was not perfect or sinless. It is important to always make clear that the official position of the denomination is that Christ was/is divine. Yet the denomination is not concerned with mandating any doctrinal uniformity on this point. It tolerates and turns a blind eye to those who lack biblically unrecognizable beliefs.
@paulab984
@paulab984 Жыл бұрын
Go to KZbin and search on UMC disaffiliation and listen to some who say disaffiliation is wrong. Pastor Adam Hamilton (Pastor of the largest UMC church in the US) has a message saying everyone goes to heaven and they'll say, "oh gee, Jesus was what I was actually looking for in my beliefs" (beliefs that were totally against Jesus). It's a Universalist view and it's common in liberal UMC pastors.
@lktopview
@lktopview 11 ай бұрын
People are leaving Mc because much has left the Bible!
@pipsheppard6747
@pipsheppard6747 Жыл бұрын
Methodists would have been well served to see what happened in the ELCA, TEC, and PCUSA.
@nunagoras
@nunagoras Жыл бұрын
It's the same pattern. After all is done there will be a 10-15% decline in Churches, Priests and membership, especially on the red states. Then the disaffiliating ones will joyfully join some like minded entity that will absorb them all. In say 10-15 years problems will to arise on those institutions larger than the ones they're facing now. Some will return their mother faith. Some will go elsewhere on their journey. No news are good news, to say the least! At least and to UMC's credit, there is at least a way forward for disaffiliation that will pave the way for very few cases in court rooms against what was the case with TEC and PCUS. ELCA has a different way of managing membership and was perhaps the most pacific one, even though there were some court room cases as well.
@parkermiley8599
@parkermiley8599 Жыл бұрын
If your a full elder it’s no wonder why you would not want to leave. The UMC will give you a job until death.
@BamaSu1
@BamaSu1 Жыл бұрын
-whether you preach the “Word” or not…
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