The Methodist Church SUED us over 'their" building.

[@donnacolin2453]

John Wesley would be appalled to see what is going on the UMC! So sorry you had to deal with this but I appreciate you sharing this warning.

[@mcneillmama50]

So would John Calvin, John piper, Martin luther, John the baptist, Peter Paul and Mary.

[@stevenwagner9912]

Isn't it his fault? He wanted the church hierarchy to have control over all the churches by holding their property.

[@donnacolin2453]

@@stevenwagner9912 The kind of Godly men John Wesley would have lead the church wouldn’t have churches in this situation. He believed scripture and believed it was God inspired. He never would have us throw out major parts of scripture because it doesn’t meet our lifestyle.

[@FA-God-s-Words-Matter]

@@stevenwagner9912 🤣

[@FA-God-s-Words-Matter]

@@donnacolin2453 Had he truly believed in Scripture he wouldn't have helped create this denomination, which the Bible says not to do. 1 Corinthians 1:10

[@kathygoddard2540]

God bless you as you continue to serve our Lord!!

[@78elcamino14]

1 Corinthians 6:7 The UMC is one messed up organization!

[@defendingthegospel721]

It should be of no surprise at this point how bad following the UMC is. This along with the many other false doctrines, people need to wake up and leave this horrible religion and follow Jesus without man made denominations. There are so many bad doctrines that cannot be bibilically substantiated like infant baptism, same sex union, "confirmation" practice, that its not important to know when you were saved, the unnecessary creation of books like the Book of Discipline and the book of Resolution that no one asked to make. It's time to repent from ever following this man made religion.

[@robertmiller812]

I agree and if it be so messed up people ought to warn against ever setting foot into such a church. Everyone including the host here should be speaking against the religion as opposed to just complaining. It was bad from its inception with all the false doctrines they uphold. Everyone should read the comment from "Defending the Gospel" below which meticulously points out so many errors from the UMC as well as issues in this video.

[@markmitchell8539]

Nice to know the United Methodists are following what Paul said to not take other believers before the secular courts!

[@markmitchell8539]

Never forgot that Judas was the Apostle who carried the purse!

[@defendingthegospel721]

Very good point only wish Keith would have mentioned that. That would be 1 Corinthians 6:1-8 "Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren." With this glaring break from the Bible among the many other things Keith complains about (and rightly so) It should be evident not to follow a Methodist Church.,

[@davidpayne2703]

This is what happens when a church is focussed on bureaucracy rather than Christ. And of course, they have stopped reading and believing the Bible.

[@mcneillmama50]

Yet the umc has turned its back on Paul's teachings on sin and sacrifice.

[@stevenwagner9912]

The UMC has become the largest HOA in the world.

[@defendingthegospel721]

This post is vital for Keith, his congregation and everyone else to read and turn away from errors. This video is an example of why Christians shouldn't be involved in Denominationalism or Churchianity. It should serve as a warning on how far "Christians” stray from the Bible in order to follow man-made rules & ideas all for the sake of “having church.” Here we go. Keith starts off admitting to click-baiting the viewer. Bad as that is I can at least say he is honest. So far we are not starting off too well. He addresses the situation, which is basically in the description, that states in part: "During the whole process of leaving the Methodist church, Cathy and I ended up buying the old parsonage from the local Methodist congregation. After everything was finalized, and we had moved on with our lives, the Western PA Conference of the denomination filed suit to regain ownership of the property that we had purchased. They used the trust clause in the book of discipline to claim "rightful" ownership.” He mentions why he made the video, which was for local churches who are in a similar situations to know what to look out for and what questions to ask. And as always he plays nice instead of truth, stating that he does not want to speak bad of the UMC. SMH. Keith goes on to talk about the house for a long while, the history, cost, who owned it, how the house was in bad shape, how they asked the prior tenant (an old widow) to purchase it, how he and his wife thought about purchasing it, etc. Then finally at minute 13:27 he mentioned that he was served with papers, to which he details how the document straight up lies saying that in cases of closure or abandonment the property would be held in trust by the WPAC-UMC, when in fact it wasn't as so stated in the Book of Discipline which is an extra-biblical book that Methodists use religiously. He mentions a letter that should have been signed, that was later found and presented in court. People got mad and wondered if this attempt to get back the property was a "retaliation against the pastor” because they “left and went nondenominational” (Maybe on paper but in practice they stick to Methodist ideologies, notably because he mentions (proudly) using the Book of Discipline as a guide in other videos.) To continue: The WPAC declared that the reason for the suit was for financial reasons, because they estimated the building to be worth over 100k dollars, to which Keith questions this because he doesn't know where they got that figure. Keith then ponders a question against the UMC that if they had sold the building to the old widow would the UMC have sued her? Meaning he questions their real intent for the lawsuit. I know I'm shocked also that Keith wonders if they were being mean and petty because he was “trying" to leave the UMC. But as usual he sidesteps his right to give his best guess and throws it to the audience by saying “so you decide where your heart is with this…..that's between you and God" Huh? No Keith you need to decide, you need to man up and state the obvious. I am sure most people would call this man a wuss for not being more direct about how the UMC plays dirty. To make a long story short they gave back the house to WPAC, who sold it later for 22k and declares plainly that “…they gained nothing other than making sure we didn’t get the house..” Then he flip flops again and says “…and I don’t know what their intent was, I’m not making assumptions…” and weakly states “I’m not slamming the denomination.” Guess what Keith you are making an assumption based on the facts. Why make a bold declaration of what you believe they did and then say you are not sure? Why are you so scared about talking bad about the denomination when they were wrong? What bothers me the most is that he does not even talk about the most glaring verses in the Bible that refer to this topic. 1 Corinthians 6:1-6 “Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.” Now that you’ve read these verses will anyone dare say that the UMC was wrong to file a lawsuit or should we just act that the Bible doesn’t matter. I am not only saddened about how denominations who claim to be Christian act as a business with no heart but how many weak and feeble preachers there are who have this innate fear of speaking “bad” about others. The Bible tells us to reprove and rebuke with all authority. Another flip happens and says in the best tough guy way to the UMC “…you came after me and you were willing to spend thousands of dollars….to prove a point that you better not stand up to the denominations…. I stood up…I defended the local congregation… and God has blessed us a 100 times over...” Well, I wouldn’t go that far because as far as I can tell as you are in the middle of no where and since you don’t point the cameras to the audience one can only surmise that its not a lot of people. He admits that there are dozens of churches leaving the UMC and later says nearly a 100 are leaving for the last year or year and a half and that due to the trust clause. He tells people to do what he did, which was to walk away. He says that they were supposed to serve God. But Keith you were serving a denomination not God. You have a complete misunderstanding of how Christians are suppose to serve God. Listen, you don’t need a building to preach the gospel. It was never a command or an issue back then and it isn’t now. The UMC follows the Book of Discipline that should have given you a clue. So they use extra-biblical references to guide them. So the Bible wasn’t enough? Be honest what would the disciples think of that? Also, where in the Bible do you see the disciples having to work on paying the bills to run a church? Do you think they thought about brick pointing, windows, ceiling fans, outside storage, roof repair and insurance? Hmm? I don’t think so. Keep in mind that none of this mess can be biblically substantiated. Nowhere in scripture does it command you to create a centerpiece or building for the “community” or follow other books. It gets worse the UMC makes you pay a franchise fee. Yes a franchise fee! Be honest isn’t this the dumbest, most foolish thing you’ve ever heard? There is just no verse to justify this. No one in the bible had to deal with such made up contrivances. Ladies and gentlemen this is Churchianity, this is Denominationalism. If this is you and you are dealing with things like this, where the simplicity of the bible is thrown out the window and have made following God extremely complicated, then you are following a false belief. Don’t wait for more bad things to happen like Keith, just walk away, scratch that, run away. Ladies and gentlemen, in short, the Bible is fully against the creation of denominationalism. Please read with open eyes: “Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?” 1st Cor. 1:10-13 If you are involved in any denomination esp the UMC and can say, I am a Methodist, a Baptist, a Catholic, a Lutheran, etc then you are involved in supporting division making. You are part of the problem not the solution. None of the few I mentioned “speak the same thing” or are “in the same mind and in the same judgment.” If you truly think you are a stickler of the Bible and believe wholeheartedly of what it states and is something that you should abide by. Then why don’t you? I say this to Keith and to all: Forget tradition if that’s what’s holding you back. Focus on the Bible not religion, go out and preach the gospel. Invite people to a Bible study at home or in a park etc. Like Keith stated there seems to be a decline in following the UMC and that’s good, hopefully it will bring people to get a deeper meaning of the Bible and understand God’s will, without the burdens that religion has laid upon men. Keith, if you read this I will be praying for you to get out of this really bad denomination that you admit has a lot of problems. I know you think that you are free from the UMC but if you still hold to Methodist doctrines and that you can’t bring yourself to rebuke the false beliefs they hold then you really didn’t change all that much. God did not call you to follow a divided sect of Christianity or to make one. Don’t let pride of being in a leadership position get in the way of doing that which is right. Ask God to help you discern the Bible. The whole denomination is crashing and burning all around you it’s time to put down the Book of Discipline and pick up the Bible. God bless.

[@stanley917]

Was involved with the UMC for a lot of years, was baptized by a minister that had been a circuit rider. IMO, UMC is now a money machine.

[@stephencornell497]

God Bless you, brother, Apostle Paul warned churches against going to court to settle this as did Jesus (indirectly) so letting go and letting God is the way to go! It only makes UMC looks bad and the world is watching!

[@brushylake4606]

Glad to know the conference is using that apportionment money so well.

[@alchemist6098]

That is why the oath in our courts of law say …the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth….I was the president of my UMC church trustees and watched how our conference destroyed our thriving church by changing our pastors an average of every 3 years and frequency giving us inept and divisive pastors. The conference did not see it necessary to nurture small churches. I am now in a neighboring UMC because my church of over 30 years in which I raised my children, died - no was killed.

[@mcneillmama50]

I think all churches should remain independent so the money you tithe faithfully stays in your church and your community. If your pastor steps out of line morally or the deacons/elders start acting stupid, you can designate where or what programs you want your money to go. I do it all the time. On my tithe I specify I want 100% to go to the $1 club. Money that stays in our church to help members who are active in the church when they have an emergency medical bill or job loss or other misfortune. I want to know where my money is going. I'm not paying for building funds, salaries, pensions, entertainment or church vans. Nobody pays for my housing or transportation. When ministers/bishops/priests started living lavish lifestyles that was when the cash flow needed to stop.

[@miniprepper8284]

We had our disaffiliation vote a few weeks ago and a strong majority of the congregation voted to disaffiliate. Unfortunately, we did not reach the 2/3 standard set by the UMC. Therefore, anyone with a strong conviction that the Bible means what it says is now basically homeless. There are 3 services at the old church which is now very sparsely attended on Sunday. Those of us who split have now had several services in a lent hall, and people are feeling of one mind and heart, though arguing over what we are going to call the new church. The building we have abdicated is full of issues, not the least of which is keeping the lights on over the course of 2023. They are running a deficit every month. They have already lost their organist, piano player, half the choir, choir director, worship director, children's ministry leader, P&W leader and soon the pastor as he was forced to take the stand that his conscience bade him to take. Those who remained have this pipe dream that the UMC is going to help them financially but the church hasn't paid apportionments in 2 years- UMC is not going to be doing the remaining congregation any favors. Insolvency is like a slow train coming for those folks, and the millions of dollars we have poured into the church in physical assets will become the districts' to sell at pennies on the dollar. No one wants to buy that troubled old building, but they will have no problem stripping it of its organ, piano, steeple chimes and whatever else they can make a buck on.

[@ThreePhaseHigh]

To bad, I would never dark in the door of the place again

[@robertmiller812]

Setting aside the tragedy of it all for a moment there is someone one should ask. Did any of the disciples have these kinds of problems? One may say well a lot of things that churches do today were likely never done in the NT as there are no verses on the rules many of these churches have made. And that would be true. So then why join to something or anything that is not in the Bible? The Bible says not to make denominations (1ct Cor. 1:10-13). They didn't have large places to congregate? How did they handle getting together. Well if we take the scripture I mentioned to be true then they wouldn't be called by any name that's for sure. But if read deeper we find that there were no church structures plus it seems God is not for that idea (Acts 7:47-51). But what do read that they gathered in small groups in homes when they could and not based on a strict rule as we hear today (almost always on Sunday) Obviously we can meet on that day but also any other day. The need to find a denominational church is not in the Bible. True believers are out there preaching the truth gathering in homes or out in the park or some remote area (remember Jesus did this a lot.) Leave the religious life and follow the Bible. It's time to live the way God intended us to live through his Word and not by man-made churches.

[@natashatomlinson4548]

I once heard a psychologist say something like “ You can tell a lot about a group, a family , a marriage ,a relationship or even a country by how hard they make it for you to leave them.” Imho, too few UM laypeople see this truth. As far as I’m concerned, that silly lawsuit was akin to a husband giving a wife a black eye after she suggests a divorce.

[@defendingthegospel721]

I couldn't agree more. I only wish Keith would have stepped up and made it clear how bad the UMC is to the point that it makes no sense for anyone to stay instead of only imparting negative stories. The UMC (aside from the reason of the current split) has time and time again failed scripturally as in this instance 1st Corinthians 6:1-8.

[@boothbayregionunitedmethod8297]

What wasn't said here though, was that all properties and buildings of the local United Methodist church are held in trust for the denomination. I am surprised that none of this was discovered in selling that parsonage. It is the property of the UMC was it not?

[@bradlong7941]

@@boothbayregionunitedmethod8297 Go back to the video just prior to the 16 minute mark and watch for at least 3 minutes. The local church did everything 'by the book'. But like so much of the UMC leadership I encountered in the past, they change/bend the rules as they go...to benefit THEM. Why? Because many of them are drunk with power.

[@barabbas57]

I come at this not only as a UMMinister but as a Realtor(I can say I’m an ‘Ordained Realtor’ and I’m telling the truth!). RE law differs from place to place: who owns the property is a grey area, it seems to me. 2)There are those in high places who say ‘Accountability is fine for thee but not for me!’ 3) Theology Matters; it matters greatly!! What do we go by??

[@EDLaw-wo5it]

They, the conferences have won several suits over property. I cannot understand how they get by with it. The people pay to build a church, pay the upkeep and then the conferences claim it belongs to them. They do in many cases finance the construction costs but they charge interest 9and don't pay taxes on the interest income. That is the reason they are going down in both attendance and popularity. It is very close to communism the way they rule. I am a past minister and I have studied the book of discipline and believe that they are going against what Christ taught in their dealings with the churches. Enough rambling from me. Good luck and may God Bless those who were wronged.

[@GilmerJohn]

I would suggest that when a "core" of the membership knows that there will be a parting of the ways, that "core" can create a new charity and simply give what they would have given the church to the charity. The charity can but real and other property and permit the local church use of this property and by agreement have the church promise to maintain the property. The church can continue to operate more or less that same as even except that the ca$h flow will be reduced and the "tax" the bishops and bureaucrats take will be less. If things fall apart, the charity had a lot of property but the church will have an empty building.

[@MrErpman]

In Texas it's more in favor of the local church.

[@Juano63]

I understand how you’re feeling, sir. You’re not only a pastor, but a human being. It seems as if the United Methodist Church follows the book of discipline more than the Bible.

[@Tenjac]

Except when they don't want to follow the Book of Discipline.

[@lissafaircloth8906]

@@Tenjac The issue is they are not following the Book of Disciple. They have changed things without it being brought to a vote. Its like changing the Constitution without making amendments. They are holding the smaller churches hostage by requiring all the $$$$!

[@Tenjac]

@@lissafaircloth8906 They haven't actually changed the discipline... yet. Our church got our date today for our vote to disaffiliate.

[@kentfrederick8929]

Let's remember that the idea of the denomination holding the property, and not the congregation, goes back to John Wesley and his concerns that a cash-strapped congregation might let the church be used for "immoral" purposes. Not that a Catholic parish would ever break away from the Roman Catholic Church, but when a diocese or archdiocese decides to close a parish, the Church reassigns the pastor and sells the property. I've seen some ugly battles between parish and diocese. The parish thinks it can find the money to stay open, and the diocese sees that the membership is too small to be sustainable.

[@institches100]

You are spot on. Because of this inept conference they destroyed an amazing pastor. We had a faction in the church who did not like the music we were singing. They developed a huge lie and he was fired. They told him if he fought the firing all his pensions he worked hard for would be withheld. He left...so did we. It took us 10 years before we came back to the church. So sad.😔

[@larryowings692]

The question I have is this. Did you ask for review/approval of the sale from the District committee of Church Building and Location. In the North Texas Conference, Metro District you be required to get this approval prior to sale of all Church Property.

[@nambamtber]

All of the necessary steps had been taken and all paperwork was approved.

[@mcneillmama50]

I'm really praying for your ministry apart from the umc. These ppl sound like pure evil. Vindictive. They will reap what they sow one day.

[@brushylake4606]

The Bible says that believers aren't supposed to subject themselves to the civil courts when conflicts arise between brothers.

[@runningwithscissors3997]

If I was a member, I would have advised to have an appraisal done before the original purchase, if not, I would have advised against the purchase. I would have advised to purchase at close to opinion of value also taking into consideration the needed repairs. And I would have made the appraiser aware of known needed repairs. You are right, the scope of work in an appraisal is different than that of an inspector. Most are not licensed contractors and as you commented, report what they observe. Additionally, I was curious if the later 35K appraisal was based before you purchased or after improvements had been completed? If tax assessment was 100K or more, I can see why red flags went up, knowing the church was planning to close. No judgement here pastor - crazy times to be in the UMC these days. Just my thoughts - video is slightly dated so no reply is necessary. Glad to see all has worked out and will continue to watch.

[@mcneillmama50]

Rich Mullins wrote a song He didn't have a home. Jesus was a vagabond. He never owned a home. That's the issue I have with these greedy bishops. They have a free parsonage provided, a personal home, vacation property and church paid retreats at Camp Junaluska and the sorts. It isn't right. The bible talks about coming out of your ivory palaces. It's easier for a rich man to enter the eye of the needle than enter into Heaven.

[@cliffordishii3738]

"Conservative" Methodists need to the next step and become Biblical Christians, then they can worship God at any time and in any place without denominations or their buildings.

[@BuyingSpace]

Jacksonville Beach Florida talks all the time about cutting itself off from Jacksonville Florida. They don't seem to understand their offices, fire department and police department have been paid for my all of Jacksonville. To separate they would have to buy the buildings and equipment. Same thing. Your free to go but you have to pay back what the other portion the city as a whole paid.

[@brenda-joycefletcher9849]

What you may not be aware of is the individual congregations are the ones that pay for all church property including buildings, repairs, and any other associated costs. The denominatiin pays nothing. In your case I would agree but iin this case you are operating under incorrect assumption.

[@BuyingSpace]

Brenda, I understand all the individual congregations paid into the same pot. This includes the ones leaving and the ones staying with a few exceptions. Is that correct? I'm open to discussion.

[@brenda-joycefletcher9849]

@@BuyingSpace Maybe I was unclear. Each specific congregation purchases and maintains their specific building, and property. There is no pot as you say. As a member of the specific local church, our local church obtain any construction loans and our congregation, not anyone else repays that loan. The congregation pays into the the retirement fund for ministers and what some refer to as a franchise fee to be part of the denomination, but be assured that each congregation pays for their property not the any other congregation in the denonomination. There is no "pot" to pay for property

[@BuyingSpace]

Brenda, is that true for all United Methodist Churches?

[@kimprather4121]

Yes it is. We are being forced to pay for the property we own, maintain, and upgrade, including the parsonage and church van. Not one dime of UMC money went to any of our property.

[@edwardelkins8723]

My family had been Methodist since way back in early 1800s at least . However my dad was baptized non denominational and used it for his marriage but I never used it for anything I planned to use it for marriage out of tradition but so many Methodist don’t seem to be the real church . No one is born a Christian but due to politics and people who are born into a Methodist family but not really Christian by their own beliefs , there are so many who are not a heists family by faith they believe it is just about themselves and their families but it’s about Christ and his family born in the spirit. All this controversy is just corruption and apostate secularism.

[@RRK1]

This breaks my heart for you. Glad I converted from Methodism to Catholicism. They won’t bend to pop culture. Prayers for your ministry.

[@robertmiller812]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/b4icqoejfq57bNk

[@marilynadams349]

No you needed a lawyer to get you a clear title before the sell

[@sv62848]

You know? Not one bit of scripture is mentioned in any of this. You guys are lost in a maze of legal mumbo jumbo. Still, arguing about the money which is in the form of property? Really?? Let them have the whole thing and watch what happens to them. You'll be amazed.

[@mysteryandmeaning297]

He explaining to help others as he stated at beginning. His other videos are the bible studies. This is on what happened to

[@FA-God-s-Words-Matter]

This is true. The main problem is the lack of scripture here as well as the misinterpretation. If one gets involved in a religious sect (that is not mentioned in the Bible by the way) one is going to have to deal with religious doctrines, not biblical doctrines but man-made doctrines. If his concern was to help others he should be telling them to come out of this church and follow Jesus. Instead he tries to stand in some sort of middle ground, instead of being a true disciple and tell them to leave.

[@robertmiller812]

Yes there is no scripture. It is obvious there is a love or desire to belong to a church and care more about man-made rules rather than loving the Word of God and following it.

[@steveteele2708]

No she. No lbgq , 34:00

[@mysteryandmeaning297]

You think they would of let you slide on all the court fees at least. You were a faithful pastor for them for years. Instead you lost out on it all.

[@SUPERHEAVYBOOSTER]

Why are you using a Bible that’s missing books?

[@eldonpitts7608]

😊

[@kathycasey9521]

Thanks so much for sharing this. It is very helpful.

[@davidwilson486]

When a pastor is licensed or ordained in the UMC he/she vows to follow the Book of Discipline. When one is ordained, he/she even says they have studied the BOD. That is, he/she is saying they know the BOD. You should not have been blindsided by the Conference owning the church property, including the parsonage. There's a reason we United Methodists, and Methodists before us, have the trust clause in church-owned property deeds. It's there to remind us that we're stewards of God's property. And, it's there to prevent a group in a church to try to overtake the church, including the property. I just heard your video talking about the pastor's union. Nothing was said about the covenant we pastors should have with each other. There's a lot of anger and that's not healthy for us pastors and the laity.

[@nambamtber]

I don't usually respond to comments like this, but thought I should this time. We were not blindsided by the trust clause, as you state. We followed the BOD to the exact ruling. It was the conference that decided to ignore the policies of the BOD and come after us. Watch the video again and actually listen, instead of reading the title and already attempting to come up with a defense for a denomination that is broken.

[@brenda-joycefletcher9849]

As a life long member of the Methodist church 80 yrs. Statements such as your just serve to reinforce my decision to go with the Global Methodist Church rather than stay with a church that has left me and the BOD. Picking and choosing which rules suit your progressive agenda is not following the BOD but using it for your own ends not the majority of the laity.