ExMormon Reacts to Heretic as a Former Mormon Missionary

[@Ilikegiraffes506008]

Blueberries are also often confused for deadly nightshade. Another bit of poisonous deception metaphor!

[@adders135035]

Ohhh, that’s a good point, I didn’t even catch that!

[@mmeow42]

It must be the other way around, the deadly nightshade is being mistaken for a harmless blueberry. Sounds like an interesting film.

[@ConstantiaVerted]

Yep I thought that as soon as he mentioned it. And in fact the pie does come up later in the film, and has some belladonna in it :)

[@nyxnecrodragon4256]

Truly? They look very different

[@zemimsky]

Holy crikey!! 😳😐

[@Martinowor]

While a missionary in Bangkok, I got a panicked call one morning from a non-member friend who frantically told me there were riots going on in an area where I had an appointment that morning, and that people were being shot in the streets. I called the mission office, and was told that I should go ahead and attend the appointment, and that god would protect me from the bullets..... Fortunately, as I approached the area, the police forbade me to go any further, and told me to go home......

[@sweet_heather]

That's horrible! I hope you and your fellow missionaries were not hurt during your time there

[@idrabohm3678]

See, hearing stuff like that makes me seethe. Imagine telling a young person under your supervision to intentionally put themselves in danger for something that could easily be re-scheduled. Not that it's a priority, but the person you were meeting with may have been busy too and not in a state to meet with you anyways.

[@drtaverner]

Abuse and Endangerment. It's pure insanity.

[@gavinsanderson1448]

@@Martinowor God doesn’t protect children from starvation, cancer or abuse, why would he go and protect a. Missionary?😳🙄🤦🏼‍♂️😒

[@Martinowor]

@@gavinsanderson1448 , exactly....

[@sarahlongstaff5101]

You’ve done an amazing job telling people what grooming is. “You chose so you can’t complain.” “You took the first step, you’re committed now.” “No one will believe you.” “You wanted this.” The louder religious people blame others, the more they’re revealing their own true selves.

[@j3st-87]

wow, nice one

[@frankcastle3761]

Talk about abuse... jeeeez

[@candicecolvin4668]

I don't understand. Are you saying she's being abusive and gaslighting believers?

[@JPcommunicates]

That isn't even a matter just for religious people. There are a lot of people who blame others for own choices in life.

[@sarahlongstaff5101]

@@candicecolvin4668 No, she's explaining how religions groom believers.

[@tysonasaurus6392]

The absence of Mr. Reed's wife could also be taken as a metaphor for the supposed existence but suspicious absence of a Heavenly Mother in Mormon theology

[@johnirby8847]

Maybe...but a bunch of huge Protestant churches don't. Methodist, Presbyterians, Lutherans, etc

[@hemulek]

I think that the absence of a wife is also a metaphor for the objectification of women in religion, reducing their existence to just a function and erasing them as individuals.

[@giovannapoletto2198]

That’s a good point! I saw her a more of a metaphor for God himself, Mr. Reed being “the church” in this case. As in, the church keeps telling you to come in and make yourself comfortable because ‘God’ will be right out to talk to you. There is no evidence that ‘God’ (the wife) even exists, but Mr. Reed (religion) assures you that she’s just just in the next room and that if you wait a little bit you’ll be able to talk to her. But then, it’s too late. You’re trapped.

[@sphinxminx]

@@giovannapoletto2198 This is exactly what I was thinking!

[@alainer0611]

@@giovannapoletto2198this actually makes alot of sense too, thats what i love about this movie because all these interpretations could very likely be the true intention, which i think is the real purpose of the movie. Its meant to promote critical thinking about faith while also not condemning people of faith. Although Reed gives every religious person something to think about, the movie ends with Paxton breaking down several of his arguments, and proving that his arguments and reasoning are based in unprovable theories, improvisation, and blatant deception to control her doubt in her faith.

[@TreantmonksTemple]

It seemed fairly clear to me that at the end of the movie when Sister Paxton suddenly starts witnessing "miracles" like Sister Barnes coming back from the dead and the model of the house strangely showing an escape route and when she goes outside and it matches Sister Barnes description of what near death hallucinations are like, and the image of the butterfly, that she is hallucinating as a result of dying. Then when the movie cuts out and "Knocking on Heaven's Door" plays, she's now dead.

[@Al-Vr-al]

I also believe that

[@Tyfont]

She also exits the house when its bright out when it was getting dark when the elder came looking for them. No way she spent the night stabbed in the abdomen. Also her phone still says "no service" despite being outside. She's definitely dead.

[@alekseighostmonster]

​@@Tyfonti didnt even catch that! i was waiting for the phone to say it has service since they were outside but it didnt happen so i just forgot about it

[@joechapman8208]

All of that, plus there'd be no reason why Reed would have built a model that also functions as a map to find an obscure exit, as if he might have a sense of fairness in the event that one of his targets bests him. And to go from a rainstorm overnight to a crisp, sunny, snowy morning is virtually impossible.

[@imagomagus]

Hm, that's an interesting interpretation. I just thought the dead sister came back as a butterfly landing on the other sister's finger, like she said she would, to let her know it's her.

[@peggywells9398]

The actresses were both raised Mormon. They pulled on their experiences growing up when they auditioned for their roles, and when they portrayed their characters.

[@TaniaLovesCake]

Yeah Hugh Grant mentioned this in an interview. That was pretty cool I thought.

[@TDruzhok]

That's both great and terrible at the same time. On one hand, it is ex-mormon representation and they have first hand experience, which makes their act unique. On the other, I feel like filming something like this as an ex practicing member would be (re)traumatising.

[@dreamerwav698]

yeah she mentioned that. did you not watch the video?

[@e.o752]

@@TDruzhokthey likely had support from the crew. I’m sure if they were uncomfortable or had a moment they had to step away and breathe they understood. They want a good performance but I can’t see them outright ignoring if they got too uncomfortable.

[@chandrastar5939]

​@@e.o752have you heard about Hollywood? Scientology? The manipulation, coercion, abuse. I wouldn't assume that a duty of care is involved.

[@celestialshannon]

I sat next to a missionary on an airplane last year who was coming home from his mission after having his apartment broken into in the middle of the night and he was robbed at knife-point and beaten. He stayed on the mission a few months longer but the PTSD was so bad he had to go home. He was such a sweet kid and my heart broke for him.

[@j3st-87]

poor guy

[@chendaforest]

Where was God ?

[@ginafrancis4950]

⁠@@chendaforest Looking the other way as usual…. Except for the truly faithful when he guides them to their lost keys when running late and saves them the best parking space in the rain or was on the side of their favorite team when they won or got them that promotion they wanted… 🙄🙄🙄

[@chendaforest]

@@ginafrancis4950 Indeed. God helps them find their keys whilst failing to stop children from drowning. God is asleep on the job...

[@frankbibanko]

Religion is a poison of the mind.

[@scubacop2345]

As a former Jehovahs Witness woman and a mother, it enrages me how many times I was sent off alone with one of my little friends to knock on doors as a child and as a young girl/teen. We would be in larger groups but then would be sent off down the street or in scary apartment complexes alone without any kind of supervision. I’m actually shocked that I was never physically harmed.

[@dancinganimals.]

If it makes you feel better assault and sexual abuse of children very rarely comes from strangers so while it's dangerous to send a child out knocking on doors, harm done by someone is a lot less likely than you would think

[@dancinganimals.]

Oh who am I kidding that's not reassuring in the slightest

[@scubacop2345]

@@dancinganimals. that’s ok, I get your point.

[@v-zr9cz]

Unfortunately missionary work isn’t for other people, it is to teach missionaries to be afraid of the outside world. I am sorry you went through that.

[@massnavii]

I'm not religious, but I am kind, and that's why whenever the younger mormons come around, I point out a house they should absolutely not knock on the door. The home owner is on a certain list, and it's not safe for the youths to knock on the door. The excuse I give is that he's stone deaf and won't answer the door. I also offer bottles of water and snacks, it gets hot here.

[@femchad3317]

I love how Mr.Reed also has a watering can in the beginning when he greets the girls. Helping sell a nurturing family image. And throughout the movie you don’t see any house plants. And eventually it is revealed he using it to give water to his “prophets”. Using a this “safe” prop as a means to show his control and abuse over others

[@ashleyschultz4143]

Regarding the ending, the butterfly. The way it's framed, I think is the important part. The cinematography is brilliant. We initially see her looking at the butterfly on her finger, but when the camera pulls back over her shoulder (or from her perspective) her finger is still extended as if the butterfly is there, but it's gone. We don't see it fly off. We go from a shot where we see she clearly see's the butterfly, then we're pulled back to see just her hand framed in the shot with the butterfly missing. It leaves me feeling like the message is it doesn't matter if the butterfly is real, the hope it inspires regardless, is. Spirituality good, Dogma bad.

[@slonmish]

Exactly. She talks about the significance of a butterfly - it being a symbol of a human soul (taken from the Antiquity, no doubt). So there is no surprise she actually sees the 'soul' we cannot see (as we don't share her belief).

[@kissarococo2459]

Also it harkens to the original religion of shamanism/worship of the dead that preceded everything else. Before the control took its place.

[@ssescoe83]

The ending means that she’s dead

[@adriandaniels1]

@@ssescoe83my friend thought that too. To me it means that her companion is dead - Sister Paxton was the only one who told Sister Barnes how she would let people know she passed on, so when sister Barnes dies, Paxton escapes, Barnes visits her to give her a message she is ok and that there’s an afterlife. There would have been no way for Barnes to communicate this as she didn’t imagine a sign herself. This whole scene of a butterfly landing on Paxton’s hand seemed to be a hallucination but I still think she escaped. It was her mind making up for the shock she just went through.

[@cmdrjanjalani]

​@@slonmishone interpretation is that the butterfly represents Barnes accompanying Paxton outside and then disappears. But it's great that the ending can be understood in different ways, helps elevate it even more.

[@JulianGreystoke]

I really liked the movie. One message that struck me was how we often under estimate women in general, but most of all women who present more feminine. But in reality the character is clever, thoughtful, observant and determined. She might have been fawning as a defense mechanism, but she was paying attention. She has a brain and she will use it.

[@UnderPurpleStarlight]

I haven't watched this movie, but your description kinda reminds me of Anya Taylor Joy's character in The Menu. She's basically able to get out of a bad situation by fawning and paying attention.

[@JulianGreystoke]

@UnderPurpleStarlight I'm fond of that movie too. I guess I have a favorite trope haha

[@krustomer]

I actually hated that I fawn in stressful situations, but this made me feel more empowered. It's not my choice, but it's not the terrible reaction I considered it as ❤

[@Kasamira]

Oh I really enjoy your KZbin! Small world!

[@GenerationNextNextNext]

Agreed! Fashion can be anything, but character always shines through.

[@Deadalys]

Actually (former mormon here) i tried to tell my dad I wasnt ready yet, when i was 8 and about to get baptized. and he made it very clear I'd be basically disowned if I didnt make the choice he wanted me to. It was clear my "choice" in it didnt matter. Whatever choice i supposedly had was made by my parents when i was born.

[@silllykitten329]

I was raised strict catholic. By the time I hit 8th grade I knew I wasn’t catholic. I was reading about other religions and beliefs. My guardian found the books and started screaming at me. One of the books was about the history of paganism. She started screaming I was going to go in the backyard and sacrifice the dog we had. Still remember that quote nearly 2 decades later. She told me I am catholic, I’m doing confirmation, and that was the end of discussion. Confirmation for Catholics is the summer after 8th grade btw. She slowly ended up being more open minded. But after I started having kids, she got very pushy about baptizing them. I never did. But to this day she tells me she prays for me every night and hopes I find god again (of course her god lol.)

[@Deadalys]

@silllykitten329 my mom does a similar thing about praying for me every time something goes wrong (i lose a job, go to the ER etc.) I have learned to just kind of go "thanks mom" and change the subject... That really sucks about how your mom freaked out. I feel like they dont realize sometimes how much more traumatizing it is to do and say things like that rather than just being understanding and maybe hoping you choose her beliefs.

[@Scarlett.loves.Loki2]

I can relate to this! When I was a teen, I questioned my religion for a short period of time (I’ve since left religion completely). During that period I didn’t feel comfortable taking communion as I thought it would be disrespectful to my faith and the people who truly believed in it. I didn’t discuss it with anyone ahead of time, but when they passed the communion plate around the congregation, I simply passed it along without taking anything. My parents were horrified. More embarrassed than anything else I think, but I felt so terrible. I was trying to be respectful of the faith, but not one person in my congregation saw it that way. The realization that my community was more interested in me appearing to agree with them, than the actual “condition of my heart” has never left me.

[@i.b.640]

Are you all American? Because I Was raised catholic in Europe and I don't know anyone with such a Story. Most people my age are lapsed catholics (never officially left, but not pracrising either) or proudly Atheist. When I Was doubting my faith and wanted to look at other Religions, my very devout mom took me to the library and Temples and Churches close by. In Our equivalent of sunday school, other Religions and even Atheist ethics were discussed positivly. I Start to wonder of that is a culture thing instead of a Religion thing ...

[@Deadalys]

@i.b.640 i think it does depend on where you live. Im a mormon personally (or i guess i was most of my life) and can say this is a huge issue in america and canada. I do however feel like its kind of a mixture of cultural and religious issue. I think america has a very culty mindset about a lot of belief systems not just religion, and we take things like feelings and opinions very personally here. I think that kind of thinking can lead to things like religious culture snowballing into somwthing much more toxic here than in other countries for sure.

[@FishareFriendsNotFood972]

Love Hugh Grant finally playing the baddies he was born to play, I buy him as 'sinister' far more easily than 'shy bumbling guy'.

[@KudukUngol]

Orson Bean fan?

[@niccard3101]

To be fair he's known to not be the nicest person in real life.

[@meghansullivan6812]

​@@niccard3101oh no fr???

[@luiysia]

hugh grant aka hugh-ge asshole lol

[@jacquelinecallejas1390]

He was a sneaky but somewhat funny villain in Dungeons and Dragons. So he’s good at different types of evil. I think they are giving him better written characters to play now that he is getting older

[@cal6137]

the fact that they referenced Book of Mormon (the musical lol) as 'that south park musical' had me dying in the theater

[@ZeihanonGeopolitics1]

Here’s my buzz breakdown: start with 1214, following with 817, and finish strong at 6210. I'll be expecting it on \/\/A!

[@s11j02]

As a lifelong atheist, something I really liked about the film that I'm still struggling to put into words was what I think it was trying to say about how atheism and trying to "disprove" religion can sometimes be weaponized in ways just as harmful as the control of religion itself. I'm old enough to have watched the transformation of atheist KZbin in particular from "disproving" religion to "disproving" feminism to ultimately just being yet another edgelord pipeline into the alt-right, and always felt really betrayed and confused by how that all went down. I liked that, while Mr. Reed made a lot of really good points (that obviously I personally agree with, for the most part) none of that justified his objectively horrific actions. It's not like he was having a good faith conversation with these girls, or even trying to help them get out from under the control of religion, he just wanted to feel intellectually superior and exercise his own control and violence on them and the other women he was harming. Like I said, I don't have it fully pinned down yet, but I think the main point I got from it was something along the lines of, it doesn't matter whether you have the "right" beliefs (the "one true religion" or lack thereof) it's all the same if you're just using it to be violent and hateful.

[@EllenDobrowolski]

Absolutely! Dogmatic ideology is dogmatic ideology, whether it is religious, atheist, or a thing else.

[@ZeihanonGeopolitics1]

Here’s my buzz breakdown: start with 1214, following with 817, and finish strong at 6210. I'll be expecting it on \/\/A!!

[@e.b.squared]

I was raised very strict Christian but now have my own form of religion and I respect everyone and their own beliefs. That being said, I have also followed the atheism transition into near in€3l, n@z!, Q-@n0|\| stuff (obviously not all!) and am extremely confused on when/where/how it all went left (or maybe rather right, far right, lol)? A friend of mine who I was friends with for a long time was atheist, logical, loving, kind, supportive, pro woman, pro lgbtqia, pro minority groups, etc. About four or five years ago, something changed and he gradually became one of these above-described individuals. I don’t understand! I had to cut off my friendship with him! It ended extremely badly and now I have a restraining order against him. I’m still kind of in shock really. It’s bizarre. Idk what happened! You can see online as well that he is just one of many. Maybe it’s a group-think situation or something? This man is in his mid-40’s. Not a teen or 20-something year old. Just strange.

[@Liimiinaa]

it's that thing where being a non-conformist just to say "fuck conformity" is as groupthink as conforming without questioning. You're not really thinking critically. It's reactive.

[@lkf8799]

Most atheists I know are very much for equal rights. It seems like you're talking about male atheists. Patriarchy is set up in hierarchies. They're almost inescapable. Religion *validates* hierarchies and male dominance and promises privileges. Religion also guarantees community and inclusion ... for a price. I can see men getting lost and falling for the false promises of groups like those satirized in Fight Club (only a lot of people didn't glean the criticism and became fans of the wrong behavior) that offer belonging, identity, comradeship, power, etc. by employing similar tactics as religion with an us/them mentality.

[@jennyhorton9232]

After I saw "Heretic", I was talking to my family about the ending in the theater. A very harried looking woman, alone, passed by our row and said "Were you raised Mormon?" We said "yes, how did you know? " She said she just guessed since we were so engaged in the plot. I said "I hope you didn't start this movie as a believer." She just shook her head and walked out looking so broken. I wish I had caught up to her and given her my number in case she needed a sounding board. Leaving the church is so traumatic.

[@anastasiae.5338]

I wonder if she's still a mormon and is disturbed by having to question what she thinks.

[@popermen694]

The iteration monologue by Mr Reed is pretty convincing.

[@PhyreReighn]

SAME ! I just dont think people understand the depth unless they've been there done that!

[@atuvera9021]

I was just 1 year and a half into it and that was enough. I started leaving earlier on Sundays since my family weren't atending anymore and i felt really alone. I think someone in the place caught that and put a locket and chain on the entrance, which was really unusual. I got scared, and hid in the bathroom. They also caught me and i said i was unwell. When everybody left, i ran away and never went back.

[@PhyreReighn]

@@atuvera9021 You are so smart & empowered to run the other way!!

[@YourFavoriteSociopath]

So funny story, my mom once accidentally held 2 JW missionaries hostage in our house for like 3 hours. So during the winter we do a LOT of baking and cooking. We live in a farming community, and as the only non-working farm in the area instead of sharing crops or things gathered from livestock we cook a bunch with all the gifts and share it with our neighbors. Anyway these JW missionaries show up at the door, and because it was snowing and cold as hell my mom invited them in and offered them some warm drinks and let them know the snow should stop soon if they would like to wait. They started asking us all the religious questions, and my mom was like "Oh no thank you we're Satanists". She started going off on this LONG rant about all the inconsistencies in the bible, how crazy the weather was, and just kept putting freshly baked goods in front of them. They did eat a strudel, pet our dog a bit, and politely listened to my mom rant on and on while I was stuck doing all the baking 😂. Finally my mom stopped ranting, said "Oh look the snow has stopped, I'm sure you boys have far more important things to do than listen to me prattle on, would you like some soup or anything to take with you?" They skedaddeled out of our house so damn fast, and we haven't had JW missionaries come to the house since! That was 15 years ago 😅

[@hank_430]

I barked out a laugh when I read "oh no thank you we're satanists" - OMG LOVE you mom! Legend!

[@YourFavoriteSociopath]

@@hank_430I think the best part about it is we’re not even satanists! She just picks a new religion anytime someone asks 😂😭

[@alyshaking]

​@@YourFavoriteSociopathGenius 😂

[@stephaniel7002]

@@YourFavoriteSociopath Your mom is my new favourite person.

[@Missbooks-u]

I aspire to be this mother😂🙌legend

[@fpoggesi]

@13:11 - "You're a fan of this team? I love them! Want to get baptized into my Church?" That is one hell of a segue.

[@JMSayler]

It absolutely reminded me of the last time Mormon guys came to my door and through the screen started off with "Is that a bernese mountain dog?" I at the time lived in a slightly dangerous neighborhood alone so having someone come right up to my door and peg my dogs breed immediately put me on high alert but then it went right into "my uncle loves those. Do you have any interest in learning about the afterlife?"

[@JRSupp]

Yes, this cracked me up! So smooth. 😂

[@WheatDos]

It's not about the -money- church, Sister... It's about the Mets!!!

[@cc_cruiser99]

The Monopoly analogy scene is probably some of the most thought-provoking writing I've seen.

[@ApollosGirlSunny]

I interpreted the house as a symbol of religion, or at least the institution of religion. Every room is a further step deeper down the rabbit holes. As you mentioned, the warm false opening to lure the girls in, then solidified and “locked in” as they enter the second room at the alter of indoctrination. They are preached to, and are given the false choice as a bit of an introductory ritual. As they go deeper under the surface the illusion breaks but they still have a “window of hope” in the basement that they turn to instead. The house is a maze, an enigma, and just like the metal in the walls and ceiling has cut them off entirely from the outside world too. Mr. Reed, portrays himself as a “god” like figure. The god of choice, as if to signify to all of the women he has trapped over the years chose this, chose him, and chose their fate. But ultimately o think this shows his true figure as the religious/cult leader. Ultimately he is his own Joseph Smith. Pretending to have a wife while, this smiling happy and manipulative figure draws them in. He preaches and lectures to them. He’s making it up on the fly when things go wrong like Joseph Smith loosing some of the first translation of the Book of Mormon, and ultimately he does have his own “harem” of women hidden in his cellar just like Joseph tried to hide his polygamous wives. He’s even a bit of a trickster, using his lights and candles as a bit of smoke and mirrors, as he simultaneously describes how Joseph Smith found golden plates he translated using a seer stone in a hat. He even falsifies his own “miracles” like resurrection. But ultimately I do see this is a religious neutral to positive. “Prayer may not work, but it makes people feel good” and it’s at this point that the viewer witnesses their own “miracle” when Barnes is able to use her last moments and “sacrifice” herself to save Paxton before presumably dying. By no means is Paxton actually in the clear however. She’s still bleeding out, and has to escape from the house (religion), and while the storm outside may be over, she is still in feet of snow (the pure white contrasting the dark, and bloody mess she has endured) miles from her church with a gut wound. It ends without the viewer being sure that she was rescued or got help. The viewer may have faith that her cell service will return and she makes it back to safe, and is able to bring help to rescue the other women inside, but ultimately there is no confirmation. She could just as easily get stuck in the snow, bleed out and die. But you never know for sure. You have to have faith. If you can’t tell I LOVED the movie, and your deep dive as well.

[@HumanimalChannel]

The ending shd be ambiguous. Until you experience death... you dont know what it is. Everyone does it. And unless youre dead....

[@frankb1]

"Business in the front, cult in the back." That's gold.

[@wr1451]

Opposite of MAGA where the cult is in the front and the business of making trumps wealthy friends wealthier is in the back.

[@mylesmarkson1686]

It's not even "Religion in the front"? I guess they don't even pretend anymore!

[@Nadine9ymp]

666 likes😂😂

[@mylesmarkson1686]

@@Nadine9ymp We need to keep it there. Nobody else is allowed to like this comment!

[@imperiumgrim4717]

That sounds like socialist would say

[@thetinytoxicologist]

Regarding the birth control pill: A girl I know who is Mormon was on the pill during her mission because her period is very painful and she wanted to avoid having to go around while on a lot of pain killers and feeling awful. Taking a day off wasn't an option

[@japanic9094]

That part tripped me up too… there are plenty of health reasons someone might need to go on birth control and as far as I know the church hasn’t made a statement on that. It wouldn’t be a big deal probably

[@stevielambert2552]

yeah I'm on a birth control pill because otherwise I get long almost continuous periods, there's no way to treat it other than regulating it with birth control.

[@lequoiscontreonu]

@@stevielambert2552There is lots of women who regulated their hormones/ periods even put endometriosis in remission with some tweaks to their diet, getting rid of deficiences and avoidung toxins. Pill is the easiest option for a doctor but not the best for your body.

[@mimimaitri1]

I wonder if the church’s real problem with this movie is that it might scare members from going on a mission. That and the exposure of truths the church would like hidden.

[@PixieoftheWood]

I suspect this is the case. I can't imagine anyone watching this movie and thinking it would inspire violence against women in the church, considering the two protagonists are portrayed and intelligent, resourceful and highly likable, and the crazy guy holding them against their will is at no point portrayed as being even in the ballpark of being in the right.

[@Bruh4reel]

Or because it exposes them to ideas that would make anyone question their faith if they aren't really unintelligent and no apologist is playing interference in real time.

[@lwell8016]

Probably something like that. My very Mormon mom is disgusted that this movie even exists and thinks it’s discriminatory against her beliefs. lol, people like her wouldn’t even give themselves the chance to look at “anti-Mormon” rhetoric.

[@jaredwonnacott9732]

I'm not aware of any truths in this movie that are intentionally hidden. There are a few that are unpopular, a lot that are just trivial, and a couple that are historically questionable, but none that are really worth hiding in some sort of attempt at conspiracy. The church doesn't go around printing controversial historical facts or arguments against the church in their handbooks or displaying them in their visitor centers, but that's a far cry from keeping them hidden. These things are regularly discussed in academic courses on church history at BYU and other church run schools, they have videos addressing and acknowledging many of the things on their media library, and there's no official policy or suggestion that Sunday school teachers, seminary teachers, youth leader, missionaries, etc. should deny or cover up any thing addressed here. The church doesn't air it's dirty laundry, but it doesn't deny it either. I honestly think the church has a problem with it for exactly what was said in this video. The people writing for the church just don't really understand the movie. They are out of touch and more concerned about appearance than the artistic underlyings of the film. Their statement about violence to women for their beliefs shows that they are looking at this film from a very superficial perspective. That being said, a lot of movie goers also watch movies from a very superficial perspective, so there's definitely a legitimacy to their concerns. I could see some people thinking, "Mr. Reed is awesome the way he showed those brainwashed Mormon girls the truth." It would be a pretty pathetic way to read the themes of the film, but not an unlikely one. People are dumb, far too often, and it makes sense for the church to be worried about that.

[@jjohnson796]

I don’t know if it’s in the movie but things like the Uman and Thurman (sp?), not to mention the movie the LDS shows you for getting your Temple Recommend are more comedic than theological to me.

[@EllenDobrowolski]

I really liked how this film explores gender in highly-controlled religions. Ultimately, Sister Paxton is able to escape (even if just momentarily before she dies in a field) because of the tools given to her and the sacrifices made for her by other, similarly trapped, religious women. Sister Barnes gives her the important tool of critical thinking, telling her that she must “challenge him” in order to find a way out. Sister Barnes also musters up the last of her strength, in her last seconds alive, to defend Sister Paxton from his attack. And one of the other victimized women gives the missionaries an intellectual tool in her act of rebellion when she tells them “it’s not real.” And it was Sister Paxton’s love, respect, and empathy towards Sister Barnes that protected her from further manipulation by Mr. Read - when he tries to use her contraceptive implant to trick Sister Paxton into believing the simulation hypothesis, Sister Paxton is able to empathize with Sister Barnes and not judge her, allowing her to be open enough to accept the truth - that the implant was contraception and that it was wrong that Sister Barnes had been made to feel ashamed about it, so much so that she would keep it a secret. And while it was inaccurate to show Topher Grace’s character alone, I enjoyed how the film showed how ineffectual most men in religious institutions are at actually protecting women. He completely believes Mr. Read and never questions a story that he receives from an older, “nice,” (and white) man. The only people who help Sister Paxton escape are the other women who have been similarly victimized, who may seem powerless, but are still able, through rebellion and care towards each other, to give what they can to help free at least one of them.

[@ZeihanonGeopolitics1]

Here’s my buzz breakdown: start with 1214, following with 817, and finish strong at 6210. I'll be expecting it on \/\/A!!!

[@catherinegilbert8360]

I think soon after getting stabbed in the stomach, she enters into a near death experience. She hallucinates Sister Barnes coming back to life briefly. Her escape, her moment with the butterfly in a pure white forest- that’s all her brain firing off as she dies.

[@angelinawhatsherface5907]

Another metaphor I was thinking about was actually the weather. The weather outside is a metaphor for the outside world/peoples lives. At first when they are at his doorstep its raining pretty hard and theyre getting soaked, and so that is a contributing factor to why they came into his house without fully verifying he had a wife. This goes back to the proselytizing to people after a natural disaster, when they are vulnerable they are more likely to "come inside". It shows the weather worsening as time goes by and that it was beginning to snow. After finding out the door is locked, they have a conversation about if they should try to find a way out and leave without their coats because they'd have to walk back miles in the snow. This makes them decide to go deeper into the house to try to get their coats (finding reasons not to leave, even when they are beginning to question, because of the fear/ consequences). At the end when she gets outside, the weather is no longer so cold and harsh, but its bright and sunny, even with snow still on the ground, and the fresh morning light shining down around her, the new day symbolizing a fresh start and freedom. I think the butterfly also adds to the sense of freedom.

[@rebeccagardner5641]

This is a brilliant and nuanced take ❤

[@LogicandDreams]

They actually do decide to leave without their coats and bikes, but are trapped by the lock. They venture further back into the house because they have no other option. So that is all part of the "illusion of choice" narrative. I was so relived when they decided to brave the snow and try the door, knowing they would be leaving their coats and bikes behind. Otherwise it would be such a classic, dumb horror movie mistake. Aside from maybe letting the uncomfortable chit-chat without a wife present go on for too long (which is not surprising for missionaries), they really make very sound decisions along the way and are truly forced into this situation. It really drives home the point of manufactured consent.

[@ashleydegroot8178]

Something I also loved about the weather in the beginning (and the freezing room at the end) is that it also parallels the weather described in Dante’s Inferno (windy/rainy transitioning into ‘eternal winter’, etc), with the descent ending in satans icy lair. Esp with the full shot of Reed’s Inferno poster, it feels like they were def drawing some parallels there

[@o.m9514]

The world outside is difficult so they escape it. They coming in.

[@slonmish]

The weather could be read as a warning sign to the main character (the survivor). As soon as they step on his property, it starts raining. They tell him they are okay just where they are, soaking wet, and are lured by the false pretences. When they are held hostage, it starts snowing, because their situation becomes dire. Still, they decide to get out without the coats, even without their bikes and are ready to walk back to the town. They are locked, though. And in the end, the storm ends, when she escapes. (And the butterfly is the soul of her dead friend.) So, the weather actually indicates the danger they find themselves in - or lack of it. Because their Mormon supervisor walks through the storm just fine.

[@KeithVaught]

I remember some middle aged dudes were offended because we wouldn’t go in and have a drink with them in Argentina Buenos Aires South Mission in 1976. BTW, I resigned 20 years ago last month.

[@alyssadgrenfell]

Wow, happy 20 years! I wonder if they legitimately expected you to say yes. haha

[@saalvosegg8171]

As someone who spent some time there in Argentina and Uruguay I found that when that happened that the other person was wanting to get to know me as a person. It’s more so of a welcoming thing and getting acquainted with each other and turning it down is seen as I’m too good for you. I’ve had similar experiences in France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Andorra.

[@mikhaildas]

1976, so basically under the dictatorship with social tension at the peak, soldiers at the streets, stage of siege and martial law . Interesting. Where in Buenos Aires?

[@spectscrawlz_]

As an Argentinean you definitely made the right choice. It's very common to invite people for drinks here but it usually happens with acquaintances and friends, rarely with people you JUST met. ESPECIALLY in 1976 when the last military dictatorship was just getting started. Glad you got out of there safely.

[@mikhaildas]

@@spectscrawlz_ Qué pensas que le iban a hacer a un misionero Yanki caminando por Ciudad Evita en 1976. Ni los milicos lo iban a tocar (por ser yanki), ni los tipos que le estaban invitando un trago (en época de toque de queda o sea a la tarde a vista de todos ideal para que los milicos puedan cagar a tiros a todos si se enteran de lo que hayan podido hacerle a un misionero extranjero de yankilandia). O lo invitaron de buena onda o la historia es cualquiera.

[@sara.othman]

Wow I never thought that as an ex-muslim (never really believed but I was raised in it as a child) that I could relate to an ex-mormon. Your breakdown of the movie, though I've not seen it, is fantastic. The gender roles, for example, sounds spot on for religion. Not saying anything about Islam necessarily, but the way I was raised really showed this. Even now, I still face this issue; I am dating a Christian and my mum still does not accept it and she still refers to her religion as "our religion" or "us muslims" despite me telling her I'm atheist. Meanwhile, my boy cousins can go around dating whoever they want and bring them to the family functions... Religion, from my experience, really is in the hands of men, men have so much power. The depiction of the doors leading to the same place is chilling. It's a stark reminder that whether you're atheist or religious, you're going to the same place; I interpret this as death. We will all die, but we will never ever know if religion is correct. So far, the only thing we know is that life and death is real, and we're all headed in one direction. Religion does feel like such a trap mentally, from what I went through and still face from people in my life today. I relate to a lot of your experiences. Thanks! Glad I found your channel.

[@alyshaking]

Same! I was Muslim for about 7 years from the age of 19 and I can relate so much to this.

[@chendaforest]

Yes there is often a double standard between men and women.

[@renaissancewoman3770]

There's a chat by another ex Mormon and an ex Muslim guy called apostate aladdin on his channel, it goes into that topic a bit more and is very interesting.

[@GenerationNextNextNext]

My cousin is a non-trad Muslim and always related to me as a former JW.

[@Alluringrat-i2g]

Most religions are made by men for men. I don’t know any “common” religion that centres and prioritises women to the same degree that men are.

[@MelodyofCelts]

I'm also an exmormon who served a mission in Germany. I do believe there is something, whether intuition or not, but one teaching appt we had scheduled and traveled an hour to get to this guy's apartment, as we were walking up to his door I said aloud to my companion "I have a bad feeling about this." And she replied something along the lines of "I'm glad you said something because so do I." We both turned around and traveled an hour back to the city.

[@MelodyofCelts]

There are SO many stories like that especially from sister missionaries I can't help but believe something protects them.

[@SpartacusMA1]

I dunno. If there is something, it's not very consistent...plenty of counter cases.

[@ErikaCartet]

⁠@@MelodyofCeltsunfortunately there are many other cases where intuition does not intervene and save them :/

[@susannaalban4641]

About the single Elder that you mentioned as being a strange thing: When I lived in Taiwan in the 1980s, there were many Mormon missionaries. Once, one of them came to the apartment I shared with a male student. We started talking and he said that he wasn't supposed to do this but his companion had told him it was okay because he (the companion) wanted to do something on his own and they wouldn't tell anybody about it. Then he opened up about the doubts he had and how he had nobody to share them with. I felt sorry for him.

[@P1THY-ow]

Actually, now that I think about it, I'd love to hear your take on Midnight Mass. Its main focus is on Catholicism but it touches on deep issues of spirituality and religion. Some of it applies to every organised religion, I am reminded of the protagonist's conversation with the Priest where he speaks about "shiny churches in impoverished countries" and the learned helplessness of "God works in mysterious ways". I really liked the nuance of the series, at times it feels like an essay on the idea of faith and death. Also, there's a "twist"!

[@maggiewilson5432]

One of the best pieces of horror media I’ve ever consumed. I would watch the crap out of Alyssa dissecting it!! Yes!!!

[@cyrusunderscore7315]

As an ex-mormon, i saw my own upbringing all throughout midnight mass. Mormons have their Beverley Keanes too...

[@AlexRoivas]

Funny thing I am from a central American country and the church in our town was as run down as the buildings around it.

[@jericcolukas]

As an ex-catholic i loved it ,but the only thing i hated is that they painted the muslim guy as some saint i felt it so forced

[@michelleespino9814]

⁠@@jericcolukasthank you for your thoughts. I saw him as a positive example of faith. As an atheist, I didn’t pick up on any Islam is better vibes. I think him being an outsider helped him from being swept up in the madness.

[@anthonydelfino6171]

so the thing about the "why didn't you just leave" argument... three things there. I've been told (but didn't experience myself so if I'm wrong please correct me) that missionaries who go to foreign missions have their passports held by the mission president in the mission office. this adds a layer of complication to the argument of "just leave" because leaving the country becomes much harder without your passport. second, I did "just leave" about 16 months into the two-year mission, and when you get back home there's a HUGE social stigma attached to you which makes you a bit of a pariah. a lot of people on missions probably know this and decide to deal with whatever is happening in an attempt to save their family and social circles for when they do get back. Mormon's are incredibly insular people with a lot of internal social networking, and to be cut off from that is incredibly jarring. this was the case for me having gone from an incredibly large family and active community network to being completely alone and on my own all in the space of about two weeks. third, while I was able to get dismissed and sent home by the mission president, when you say "just leave" when you consider how little money the missionaries themselves get access to, they kind of do have you stuck. I think it's likely similar to people in abusive relationships in that the person experiencing the abuse just doesn't have the financial means to get away. Sure they can physically relocate themselves away from the situation, but what then? where do you go? you probably don't know anyone you can stay with since on the mission you're so closely connected to just church members or people you're trying to teach, and even if you're in a developed nation, you really don't qualify to go to a shelter for people who are escaping abuse, so you're even further stuck there

[@spikemcc]

That sounds horribly reminiscent of human trafficking.

[@anthonydelfino6171]

@ you’re not wrong

[@Tessa_Gr]

@@spikemcc The early church had a pattern of doing missions, trying to find women to take them to mormon towns so they can become plural wives of mormon men there. These women were basically tricked to come to a foreign place where they had almost no means of ever escaping anywhere else. So this would not be the first instance of human trafficking in the church, by a longshot.

[@acronen]

Can confirm you leave your passport with the mission president if you go to a foreign mission. At least this was the case for me back in 1999. Another complication from being in a foreign mission is simple language barriers. You aren't going to speak the language very well (especially if it is earlier on), and a lot of the language you will be familiar with will revolve around religious topics. It's very isolating... on purpose.

[@japanic9094]

They did this in 2012 as well

[@Natalie.D]

As an ex-catholic, I appreciated that this movie was not just another Catholic horror film. Your interpretations are spot on. I love a24 films. I watched Conclave last week, speaking of Catholic films, and that one was pretty good if you are looking for a movie to watch. The ending was not expected!

[@BouncyBrown]

Catholicism has so much beautiful imagery/iconography, I think it translates well to film. I think that may be a (shallow! 😅) reason why it gets used so much in horror movies.

[@AliceBowie]

Did you like The Young Pope? I loved it, but only saw the first season.

[@WeirdSkellyK1]

Thaks for the recommendation. I will watch this too ❤

[@WeirdSkellyK1]

​@@BouncyBrowncatholic churches are so pretty inside. As you say, there is a lot of beautiful imagery, even some of the stories are interesting. My son went to a catholic school Our Lady of Lourdes ( we aren't catholic, it was a cachment area thing) but was a lovely school and the story of our lady is a very nice one

[@arozeisarozie]

Former Catholic here, too - best I’ve seen is the Midnight Mass mini series. It hit home, hard. I will definitely check Conclave out!

[@thetheatricallinguist]

I feel like, as a woman, behaving erratically is extra bad safety advice because I don't think a predatory man would be put off by a woman acting 'crazy'.

[@FantasyReader321]

The staggering amount of violence against people with disabilities absolutely agrees with you! Looking "crazy" might just make you more of a target for attack since someone having a psychotic episode or with extreme speech impediments won't be able to report to the police. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_people_with_disabilities

[@TheAmazingfulOne]

​@@FantasyReader321also, someone not fully aware of what is reality and what isn't (psychosis, dissociation, dementia) can make you way more suggestible and go along with scary things

[@KayosHybrid]

It can, or it could not. A predatory man may see erratic behaviour as ‘more work’ for their high risk intentions than it’s worth. Or, it’ll be interpretted as you being compromised, vulnerable and even more easy to overpower. It’s essentially worthless advice meant to comfort you as an option

[@faenene]

31:05 I really appreciate someone talking about this. I honestly regret being baptised at 8, and I always feel invalidated because “well it was your choice”. I didn’t think it was a choice. Nobody told it was even an option, I just thought that’s what you do when you turn eight. It makes me sad.

[@ZeihanonGeopolitics1]

Here’s my buzz breakdown: start with 1214, following with 817, and finish strong at 6210. I'll be expecting it on \/\/A!!!

[@jorenvanderark3567]

Even if you knew... you were 8, not 18. That's not an age where your decisions should haunt you for life.

[@shironerisilk]

I was raised in a fundamentalist evangelical church and I ''chose'' to be baptised at 8 years old as well. It just didn't make sense to me not to - it's not really a choice if the option is going to hell to be tortured for all eternity. That was what was on my mind at 8 years old, I just didn't want to go to hell.

[@genehayes]

14:30 On my mission the joke was "Every time you drop your scriptures your future wife gains 10 pounds" 🙃🤮

[@quak823]

The layers of misogyny and fatphobic rhetoric

[@grandempressvicky6387]

It's so funny how these religions hold themselves above "worldly" issues and concerns like the looks of a partner, but still buy into "worldly" narrative like this. Utah is one of the capital destinations for plastic surgery lol.

[@ChristopherSadlowski]

Yuck. I don't like that.

[@bigboynow7936]

I'd never read scripture again. Women are cute with some weight on 'em.

[@BrianWaller-qe7gr]

@@quak823asking for a friend. But do overweight women date overweight men? Nope. Women reject guys for being short and you get butt hurt because men don’t want an overweight woman? You can’t make this shit up

[@Liljmonster]

As a non-religious person who grew up with a mom who tried to make me go to a local baptist church when I was young, I really enjoyed this movie. It was nice to have a “scary” movie not based around the Catholic Church. It was definitely “religious horror” in a new light to me. I enjoyed the ideas of iterations of the same thing in various examples from religion to food to music. 7.5/10 all around.

[@dollyhood6549]

I was waiting for Lana del Rey! They never played her “rip off” of Creep / The air that I Breathe.

[@ChristopherSadlowski]

Yeah, for me Christian and Catholic horror is played out. I need something different to keep me interested. Catholic horror especially is just getting ridiculous and almost humorous at this point since they keep upping the ante on everything. See The Pope's Exorcist for a good example. The entire conceit of that film is that these things literally happened as shown in the movie. If even ONE of those things were shown to me as hard, documented evidence (not a "trust me bro it happened it says so on this paper) I will run back to church. I know that'll never happen, so I'll stick with atheism for now.

[@jaysea5939]

@@ChristopherSadlowski I watched it and the only thing I remember is Russell Crowe putting around in his vespa, he looked like he enjoyed that lol

[@sabalos]

The joke with the male missionary coming back to the door works so well because at that point, if I remember rightly, the audience doesn't know Mr Reed has moved the bikes - you're supposed to think that's what he's spotted, and then instead he whips out the pamphlets. The ending is deliberately ambiguous, for sure. Anyone telling you it's for sure one or the other is lying! It's like The Thing, or Inception - the point is not to know

[@Call-me-Al]

I was really confused when people say you weren't supposed to know with Inception: kids that age grow like beanpoles, there is no way both the kids wouldn't have changed one bit (one kid having a bit of a growth stall isn't that weird, but both nope). I don't remember now but there were multiple other things that pointed at him just being locked in a dream. The ending seemed obvious, just merely ominous.

[@Smithjones12]

The ending was excellent, I thought it was obvious what happened to them all including the 'prophets' I loved how the sister broke reed by taking away his control.

[@seppyq3672]

And I love that they added "I'd be remiss if I didnt..." that's a very common mormon phrase. 😂

[@slonmish]

The Thing is a very clear and understandable movie. What exactly can't we know/understand about it?

[@ErikaCartet]

@@slonmishi think they mean the ending being ambiguous since it’s not made explicit whether childs is actually himself or the thing

[@sophiearab5399]

One interpretation I got from the ending (which is arguably far more bleak than your initial interpretations) was that it was a call-back to when Sister Barnes was explaining how near-death visions aren't actually real they're just hallucinations. So we see the butterfly land on her hand and then it cuts to the shot of it not being there but her still smiling, I assumed it was because she was hallucinating the butterfly and was supposed to represent her faith comforting her in the moments before her death and a very "people use religion to comfort their fears of the afterlife" narrative.

[@Aveysaur]

may i just say, that looking at you now, and then pics of you when you were an active member, your eyes now have so much more light in them.

[@KayosHybrid]

Living in an oppressive institution is probably highly stressful on the self, especially since it insists on not thinking and also conforming

[@fish_whiskers]

Your method dressing for your videos truly does give 'teacher'. Excited to hear your takes 😊

[@alyssadgrenfell]

It honestly makes the videos even more fun to make! Make me feel like Ms. Frizzle. haha

[@madisondonbrock7268]

@@alyssadgrenfell your dads blessing to be a teacher has in the end, turned out to be true. You are teaching all of us the truth about LDS and I’m loving it. Please, don’t stop teaching and showing us the truth

[@jewelgazer]

@@alyssadgrenfell Hey I have a few questions! How often do missionaries go door to door vs making an appointment first? I have heard that missionaries use social media a lot nowadays to create contacts. Are folks still at home anymore during the day or do more people work?

[@seppyq3672]

And you also had a blueberry candle. I love that. 😂 I am mostly over hearing about the mormon church, but i really enjoy your videos. So smart, well put togethet, and well spoken!

[@becca1147]

I was like "wow how is Alyssa so good about analyses?" - then i realized our girl is an english teacher so of course shes great at this!

[@MM-yn9oz]

I think the board with nails is a representation of the deconstructed cross. So, I think it's saying that only through deconstructing religion completely can you free yourself and possibly reach the peace and understanding that the natural world is all we have and a spiritual value of connection with nature is where true peace lies. Not sure but something like that seems like it's part of the message.

[@MM-yn9oz]

The butterfly symbolizes the beauty and mystery of the natural world and spiritual connection with her friend that brings her peace. I haven't seen the movie, but this seems like a logical takeaway from your description.

[@crolithebard4964]

I think you’re onto something. One thing that stuck out to me is the scene with the doors. Belief vs disbelief. That no matter which you choose it’s illusion of choice because you’re still stuck within the confines of the institution itself. I think the message of the movie is that regardless of your personal beliefs or faith, religion (as in the institution not the faith) will always be used to control the believers. It’s even one of the main point of Christianity, with the Pharisees using religion to justify acts of violence and turning temples into markets. The faith or lack there of frees you as long as you make the choice and have hope, but the rigid walls of certain religions are tight and oppressive and often don’t treat the unfaithful well, such as how Sister Barnes ends up in comparison to Sister Paxton

[@danielleyale15]

The thing about getting baptized at 8 by “choice” resonated a lot with me who grew up Adventist and went to Adventist schools. I got baptized at 7 and also “by my choice”. Once I grew up and started to REALLY think about it, it was everything BUT choice. The stigma, the peer pressure, the constant “the world is probably ending tomorrow and you need to get baptized in order to be saved”. I remember begging my mother to ger baptized but it was because I was FRICKING SCARED that one night out of the blue Jesus would come out in the sky and leave me to burn in hell if I wasn’t baptized. Also I was only 7 and my own grandmother was like “why aren’t you baptized yet? Don’t you love Jesus? Do you want to go to heaven with your family or alone to HELL” 💀yes, talk about choice

[@ginismoja2459]

As someone who grew up in a very non-religious family, hearing such stories is just WILD to me.

[@ZeihanonGeopolitics1]

Here’s my buzz breakdown: start with 1214, following with 817, and finish strong at 6210. I'll be expecting it on \/\/A!!

[@cottoncandy3630]

As an exmormon, I grew up believing that missionaries are invincible. The reality is so much more depressing. My mom knew missionaires who were sa'd visiting a members home. And a classmate I knew, passed in an accident on his mission. Children should not be forced into these dangerous situations

[@ZeihanonGeopolitics1]

Here’s my buzz breakdown: start with 1214, following with 817, and finish strong at 6210. I'll be expecting it on \/\/A!!

[@jvsaints]

As a female, I remember working with a guy who was critical of me for working. It turns out that he was LDS and started questioning me. Creepy beyond belief.

[@j3st-87]

little sick

[@jmorgan3977]

An outdated viewpoint. I'm an LDS man and I would never have a problem with that. I'm afraid people like that give a bad reputation for the rest of us.

[@syd9394]

@@jmorgan3977I mean, a lot of LDS principles rely on pretty intense gender roles- and strictly adhering to them. It’s unsurprising that many people in your faith take it to the extremes

[@jmorgan3977]

@@syd9394 while that's true, and I won't ignorantly deny it, I've never known any LDS men in my life who have viewed women like that. And I saw my father especially treat my mother as en equal if not even let her take lead on some things. But this is only my experience.

[@syd9394]

@@jmorgan3977 thank you for keeping an open mind! My family dynamic was pretty similar, my mom was in charge of the finances and housework was split pretty evenly- and I grew up in a religion (Catholic) and the congregation I went to really favored men. I’m glad you’ve experienced a healthy balance with the relationships in your life. Though, this may be nit picky, and I apologize if I’m reading to hard into this, but your wording of your father “let her take lead in things”, is still a pretty gender roled thing. Why does he need to “let” her take the lead? Just a thought. Again, I apologize if that’s a stretch.

[@KeithVaught]

“Heretic” is a very creepy film with an intense climax and surprise unraveling. If you see it, don’t say I didn’t warn you. It’s like you don’t want to see it but you’re riveted to the screen.

[@alyssadgrenfell]

I think this is why I really needed to watch it a second time. The first time I was too worried about how scared I was to pick up on more of the subtlety!

[@RED-my9hl]

Idk, as someone who already knew every religious reference they were making, it felt boring, predictable, and stupid at times. This movie is more for people who don't know much about general religion and such

[@slonmish]

the main villain's speeches were too stupid for a man who had supposedly studied theology for 10+ years. just saying.

[@ErikaCartet]

⁠@@RED-my9hlyeah i had fun watching it but it didn’t really say anything interesting about institutionalized religion/dogma v spirituality that i didn’t already encounter in like, high school world history discussions. i think having a personal connection to religion or maybe having not learned anything about it in history at all would have made this thought provoking to some but it kind of reminded me of the barbie movie except with religion instead of feminism, if you’re familiar with it already it might feel a little too on-the-nose and spelled out

[@zjmyoutube7168]

Alyssa, I'm not sure if you'll read this but I think the educational work you do is so valuable and I hope you never stop. I was raised non-denom Christian and your videos have really helped me to break free from the harmful side effects of religion in my life. Thank you for all you do, and I hope you and your family are happy, healthy, and safe. :)

[@probowler2000]

Aw, same, been out of religion for 10 years now. I love her content too, it's cathartic. I bet your comment will make her so happy to see ❤

[@zjmyoutube7168]

@@probowler2000 🫶🏻

[@travismckil]

Sophie Thatcher's version of 'Knockin' on Heaven's Door' is eerily similar to Mazzy Star's 'Fade Into You' which I choose to believe was an intentional choice. Thanks for this deep dive from a Missionary perspective - I was wondering what was written on the blue cup Reed was drinking from in the "sanctuary" but now I don't have to go back as I choose to believe it also reads 'hubby'.

[@Peachyytrees]

*I have to give credit where credit is due* ! 🙌 GIRL you had me sucked into this video from *start* to *finish* lol. You did such a good job reacting to this movie.. from explaining all the different takes on the metaphors, breaking things down to a level that I could understand (being I was never a Mormon) and even mentioning your own experiences that you tied into this. Honestly you did such a good job, Allyssa! 👏 So now I’m curious and going to have to totally watch this movie now! 😅

[@ihtibas_ilharary]

That scene in the beginning where the teenagers harass the sister missionaries brought up so many memories of being a missionary. I think they did a good job capturing what it's like to have to have strangers making fun of your daily.

[@LiMoo02]

Alyssa, the way you have started an obsession with Mormons in me! I've always been a person who would be fascinated with murder cases, documentaries about cults, etc., but I'm eating this Mormon content up at an alarming rate😂 and your videos have been such an informative and interesting part of that! Thank you!💗

[@alyssadgrenfell]

I hope you enjoy! There are so many horrible mormon murders where the doctrine plays a big role. I've been meaning to cover some of them but they're so dark and also so many :/

[@LiMoo02]

@@alyssadgrenfell I would love a video about that! Please do if you have time at some point. (And if you want of course.)

[@danielmajdali3713]

​@alyssadgrenfell I was unaware of this but I'm not shocked to hear this. Interested in watching a video on this, please, if it's not too upsetting to you. Thank you for your content.

[@sewingalong]

@@alyssadgrenfellLook into @mormontruecrime. She dives deep into all things Mormon and murdery.

[@anthropomorphicpeanut6160]

​@@LiMoo02I agree, such a video would be super interesting if she is okay with making it 😊

[@mimimaitri1]

Your English major is showing , Alyssa. I love your analysis.

[@dawn_ette]

I left the Mormon church in May of this year and I’ve never been happier. I saw the movie yesterday and the scene where Mr. Reed is talking about how the “one true religion” is control and that made me cry 🥲

[@CplAnguadaEarth]

You got a shout out from the horror channel Dead Meat on their podcast episode about Heretic! As a fan of both of you, it was neat

[@Thenewboidahlia]

My dad used to let a pair of Mormon men in and would talk to them and have them do work around his house and it always baffled me they were just so willing to spend time with him let alone go down to his FUCKING BASEMENT to help him clean it out 😂😅😂😅

[@apexofhumanity]

That is so big brain.

[@Sam_dea]

Your dad is a genius lmao

[@Thenewboidahlia]

@@Sam_dea LMAOOOO honestly it was pretty damn smart of him 😂 because he WOULD talk scripture and things with them so technically I suppose they got something out of it too 😂

[@dollyhood6549]

Dude omg! My MOM would have the Mormon guys help her in the yard! I always gave her ish for that, but I guess she wasn’t alone 😆 I hope those guys are ok now. They seemed earnest.

[@aeolia80]

As someone that did a mormon mission, you'd be surprised how mind numbingly boring it is most of the time, lol, so yeah, I'm not surprised they were more than willing to help your dad out, lol, gave them something to do

[@karenlankford8558]

You said something that helped clarify something for me. You talked about the reality that the believer is living in. The faithful Mormon or any deeply religious person has created a world in their mind that is different from the world that outsiders are perceiving.

[@oliviawolcott8351]

oh yeah! absolutely. and its reinforced by the isolation and the idea that the world is evil!

[@Glitterandgoldfinds]

Hi Alyssa! Just wanted to say you inspired me to do my Anthro masters thesis on Mormonism and their utilization of social media and I’m so excited to deep dive

[@mizotter]

That sounds fascinating, with possible side quests into disordered eating, weird clothing loopholes, and the "required" cosmetic surgeries to fit the Mormon social media "beauty standard." Enjoy!

[@Tessa_Gr]

Sounds like a really interesting topic. Especially with social media usage, as the Mormon church indirectly "sponsors" so many Mormon influencers/KZbinrs/Bloggers via Google AdSense. I've never even thought about that before Alyssa made her video about the topic, but I'm sure there is much to research in respect to Social Media and Mormonism.

[@Xavier9339]

I’ve seen a few videos breaking down this film, but your perspective is the best because of your background. Thank you

[@DJMaddzzz]

I really, really love hearing your analysis on a movie like this. Your insight is just so fascinating and your analysis really digs deep into the themes and metaphors. I would love to see you do more stuff like this in the future. I can tell that you’re an author just by the quality of this movie’s analysis!!

[@Zopocalypse]

My sticking points about the birth control are that the scar is way too long (it's usually much smaller, more like a dot than a line) and that the implant is metal instead of plastic. I also appreciate that Sister Paxton was very honest about the fact that Sister Barnes would be made to feel guilty for using birth control. Both women are smarter than they initially let on.

[@kaileewalden3586]

The scar seemed off to me, too. During the scene in the living room when Mr. Reed first notices it and the camera draws attention to it, I assumed it was somehow related to Sister Barnes' dad's death since it didn't look like an implant scar and they'd been talking about it in the same scene. I thought it may have been from SH and that was supposed to be part of a reveal later.

[@Zopocalypse]

@kaileewalden3586 I also thought it was a SH scar

[@lisavandenhoven5672]

I am a never-Morm, Christian, church every Sunday my whole life kind of believer. I went to Christian school and I did make the choice to be confirmed when I was 18, which is a typical age in my church. So in many ways, I am on the religion pipeline. I find your perspectives on religion very interesting and important. They make me constantly examine myself to see if I am doing things because of my own well examined faith and convictions, or because I am being controlled. I watch exJW and exScientology content for the same reasons. Thank you for sharing your experiences as a Mormon and now missionary.

[@MrAwombat]

That's good stuff. That's one of the things I liked about Heretic. It may have used Mormonism as the subject, but it made me think about how i would respond from my Christian perspective.

[@zxultrviolet370]

the truth ought be questioned, ive questioned my (orthodox christian) faith to no end, i am still orthodox, and always will be. but it is important to know the faith, and be sober.

[@monsterinyourcloset7573]

1:17:42 Interpreting butterfly at the end to be "is she actually alive or dead" is kind of an argumentum ad lapidem. The question it's posing is not "did the ending of the movie actually happen", but rather, it is challenging the viewer to question why the ending happened. In other words, was she "saved" by her prayer and appeal to religion? Or rather, did she save herself? In a larger sense, is religion actually real and the salvation we want coming from some deity or are we as humanity the actual only hope for our own betterment? It's meant to be ambiguous but I believe the movie is very clear in its position that she saved herself, but those commenters you quoted would probably believe otherwise.

[@jmarquiso]

Or did the action of faith in her higher power give her inner strength to endure and survive. It also fit the descriptions of near death experiences earlier in the movie

[@cawareyoudoin7379]

If she did get saved, or at least got some sort of solace and victory, it was because of the other women trapped with her - the prophet going off-script, the other sister giving her strength to fight both mentally and physically. I can see the interpretation that the last scenes were a pre-death dream, but I do believe that until her stabbing, this is really what is happening. She stabbed the man in the throat.

[@GothVampiress]

@cawareyoudoin7379 in that way, you can say that sister paxton does find the true religon in the basement; it's caring for and faith in each other. even her stabbing mr. reed in the throat is at sister barnes's codeword, even if she isn't there to say it. regardless of whether or not it's real, she gets saved through faith in her fellow people.

[@cawareyoudoin7379]

@@GothVampiress Exactly!

[@tofamous13]

Your breakdown game is crazy. A lot of things I noticed but didn’t really understand you analyzed. Great work💯

[@santasa8888]

This was really an interesting angle; I was really eager to hear this reaction, and I am very glad that I did - it's a great video, I liked it very much. Thanks Alyssa.

[@auto137226]

I saw the movie yesterday. I am a former Mormon and was a missionary 45 years ago in South America. After the movie I was having dinner and it came to my mind, their whole experience was just a slightly more intense Bishop’s interview and the points about control and everything are right on.

[@IDoNotFeelCreative]

I love how I 1. don't live near the usa, or a country where mormonism is prevalent 2. had basically only heard of mormonism existing from "angels in america" before seeing this channel 3. Have not seen or heard of the movie 4. Can't wait to watch this video and am really glad it's an hour long

[@cheryl_texacana3999]

when friends tried to get me in "the church" I told them it was a made up religion by an American for Americans and No Thank You.

[@emilymoehrlin5371]

I would definitely recommend watching more of her videos if you find this one interesting, she has shed a lot of light on the “cultiness” of Mormonism and its always presented in a very interesting and watchable way!

[@anthropomorphicpeanut6160]

Same for me but change "angels in America" to "book of Mormon" (the musical)

[@IDoNotFeelCreative]

@@emilymoehrlin5371 Oh yeah, I've watched many of her videos, I just don't comment often. She's really skillful at making video essays! :D

[@kathilisi3019]

I watched "Angels in America" at the recommendation of my ethics teacher at uni, and boy was I surprised 🤣

[@KP-nf4yl]

News flash, LDS Church: A bishop - following policy, mind you - contacting a law firm instead of the police when someone reports CSA or DV to him also “runs counter to the safety and wellbeing of our communities.” The selective concern for the wellbeing of members is staggering. And downright nauseating.

[@FritzchangArt]

I love seeinf this type of content from you!! This was a great watch and i loved your insights as a former mormon and also your analysis of the symbolism!

[@stephaniehacking1657]

Excellent job!! Loved the connection of take this badge off of me to mirmon missionaries. SO MUCH to think about!!

[@Charlotte_Cass]

I watched the film in a cinema in the uk. Two separate older (60+) couples left about half way during the film. Which makes me think what they thought it was about 😂? Either they were offended it was a horror/psychological thriller (not a Hugh Grant rom com) or about what is said about Christianity (clue is in the name) but what enticed them to the cinema still intrigues me today 😂

[@crazyowlgirlcncowner]

They got sleepy and went home to take a nap

[@geekynerd7346]

It is about an old man who kidnaps and tortures two young women. I can understand how some people don’t want to watch that

[@confusedjello7292]

maybe it was just too scary for them and they tapped out,i know some people who have done that (hell i did during terrifier lol)

[@crazyowlgirlcncowner]

@@confusedjello7292 That would've been me too. They probably thought they could handle it and in the end it was too much for them. Happens to me all the time. I'm an adult and I can't even watch thrillers without making my mom watch them with me so she can tell me when the violent parts are over 😭

[@eturley7533]

Respectfully Mormons are not a Christian denomination. The Mormon claim to Christianity would be like a Jew calling themselves a Muslim. They really are an Americana cult that rips off abrahamic religion with their own wattpad bible and invasive practices. Christians do not consider Mormons one of the denominations because of the radically different theology/rituals/doctrine they hold.

[@localbuzzkill1760]

I watched this with my husband last night and was hoping you would make a video about it! I leaned over to my husband the first ten minutes in and said “these girls are nailing the Mormon awkwardness” 🤣 I enjoyed it but felt the ending was a little rushed.

[@alyssadgrenfell]

Yes! Here I am! Haha I think especially Sister Paxton was great at the overly friendly/naive sister missionary. 10/10 performance.

[@axfln4221]

Both actresses were raised Morman, which is probably why!

[@localbuzzkill1760]

@@axfln4221 yes!! I made this comment before I had finished the video but that piece of information really helped it click into place, the girls were perfectly cast and Hugh Grant was amazing!

[@alanbrooksby4381]

Intelligent and insightful analysis. Far superior to any other that I have seen whether pro or anti Mormon. You have distinguished yourself with excellent work here.

[@Khmertime..]

I really liked your interpretation. Especially “you’re free to go but you’re trapped in your mind”

[@Edwardian8]

Brilliant video, Alyssa. You do an incredible job of bringing me into this world that is fascinating, yet so foreign to my own experience.

[@moonkey2712]

Please check out (and give your thoughts on) a tv show called "my husband is not gay". It's about Mormon men in Utah who are attracted to men, and also married to women!

[@alyssadgrenfell]

OMG I have been wanting to do this one! It's crazy how much trended mormon media there is to cover 😂

[@ItsJustValHere]

YES! This is the show where all the husbands have like a "friend group" and casually give ratings on other men on the street (being the higher one a way of saying they needed to be almost restrained iirc? Lmao)

[@Leafeatinggirl]

Yes!! I saw a video of this, and was desperately wanting Alyssa to talk about it

[@mylesmarkson1686]

I think I saw it. It was something like "Not gay... SSA". I remember watching it thinking "Just come out of the closet already dudes!"

[@moonkey2712]

​@@mylesmarkson1686 So I think I see the distinction that they are trying to make. They aren't allowed to act on their desires for men because Mormon, and they are essentially forced by their society to marry a woman, but they at least are accepting of their truth that they want to.

[@Popculturehero11]

I was hoping you’d cover this as someone with experience with this subject matter! One thing your interpretation has that I haven’t seen others mentioning is viewing Hugh Grant’s character as religion itself challenging the sisters. Wow that’s interesting!

[@talloncusack]

That is so scary and I never thought of that aspect of their safety…:(

[@talloncusack]

Like for me it was always encountering young male JW and obviously having good intentions but it would be really different for girls/women and still even the men of various proselytizing religions being thrown into door knocking is so unsafe

[@talloncusack]

What I'm saying is that typically we view them as the nuisance/aggressor/threat, but never think of them as being prey to these opportunistic criminals I guess

[@maybeyourbaby6486]

Yooo this is SUCH an interesting take!!! I'm definitely seeing this whole movie in a new light now. As a European agnostic polytheist pagan, I was mostly just confused the first time around, but this makes soo much sense. Thank you for sharing your perspective!! 💖

[@anjavonpfeil4312]

At 2:36 the sister missionary says - "There were times, I know, we were trying to be robbed...." What a weird way to say this.

[@e.b.squared]

That is so funny. I was raised very strict Christian (not Mormon) and it sounded completely normal to my ears, but seeing it called out like that, you’re absolutely right. That is such a bizarre way to say it. Like they caused themselves to be robbed. Taking the blame for it. I wonder if I still talk like this

[@scottg.g.haller3291]

As a Catholic, I was confirmed at a young age in the 1970s. (Accepting the baptismal vows as an "adult" to personally choose to become a member of the church.) It was a group experience and part of a series of rituals to become a "full" Catholic including first confession and first Communion. I definitely saw parallels with a friend who had his Bar Mitzvah a few years later. It makes a lot more sense that Confirmation now happens during high school (at least in my community) when the participants are older and can more reasonably be understood to be making an important decision for themselves. In my church, there is also a strong adult convert program where people spend months preparing to be baptized or confirmed and there's a large ceremony before Easter to welcome them into the faith. I think that having a spiritual life is important and acknowledge that we all take different paths to find that. I very much concur that children should not be coerced into fully committing to a religion until they reach an age of consent.

[@patrickkeyes5916]

I’m amazed. I’ve watched many of your videos and have always respected your intelligence and honesty. But this is brilliant every moment. It was almost hard to believe, moment by moment, how precisely and deeply you saw into the details of the movie. What a delight to see someone thinking with such agility and meaning in real time.

[@chlolineberg]

This is an incredible analysis. I’m not even Mormon but grew up in a pretty small bubble of Christianity, and i still resonate with some of the ideas within this film and your perspective. Your content is always so intellectually stimulating and entertaining. Thanks for what you do!

[@ZeihanonGeopolitics1]

Here’s my buzz breakdown: start with 1214, following with 817, and finish strong at 6210. I'll be expecting it on \/\/A!!!!

[@KaptainTorres]

This is actually the best analysis of the film I've seen so far.

[@ZeihanonGeopolitics1]

Here’s my buzz breakdown: start with 1214, following with 817, and finish strong at 6210. I'll be expecting it on \/\/A!!

[@rhsmx9655]

The way I JUST left the movie theaters watching this and now you’ve posted a video?!!!? How lucky am I

[@alyssadgrenfell]

Welcome, come on in, I’m baking a pie 😀😀😀😀😀😀😀

[@dollyhood6549]

I watched Heretic last nite. Was hoping that Jordan&McKay would have their reaction up, but they don’t. first time watcher 🤙fantastic analysis!

[@spookeymo]

it doesnt come out in my country until christmas 😭 i was excited to watch it before the video but oh well

[@Dark_x_Arts]

This is a great analysis. Something you missed about the song is it was an homage to the song fade into you by Mazzy star which is an iteration knockin on heavens door.

[@nromk]

"People don't mess with crazy peoples", reveals two different ideas, one that the other is outside of the norm, two people actually do in fact mess with crazy people, like hurt and mock them.

[@orangesnowflake3769]

The point is to be unpredictable, people won't go up and mock you if you need to act crazy once your already in danger, its sound advice

[@confusedjello7292]

i think they mean like, you're less likely to get stabbed if you start tweaking tf out (with a gun act as calm as possible)

[@Teajay21]

​@orangesnowflake3769 People with mental illness are at 10x more risk of violent crime than those that aren't, so it's not really a protective factor.

[@VegaNorth]

⁠@@orangesnowflake3769Yeah, the word “crazy” is reductive and removes nuance. Those who behave differently from a cultural norm are absolutely mocked, but by being “unpredictable” it can make a person more susceptible to attacks. Very concerning.

[@gordons-alive4940]

This is almost sold out at our local theater chain. It is discount night, so sales are a little better than usual. Still I think it might be a sleeper hit.

[@alyssadgrenfell]

I've heard multiple people say their theaters were sold out, especially in Utah!

[@SusieAdams-z4n]

But not in Cedar or St George where they pulled it 😮

[@peterwinstead7618]

Incredible analysis. So much to delve into with this movie and I didn’t catch most of this on the first watch. Thank you!

[@gustavoramirezjr7320]

I remember audibly chuckling at the scene where the elder comes back to hand him the pamphlet. Lol, nobody else did in the theater, I live in Provo, UT (not Mormon) 😂

[@rebeccacampbell585]

OMG that blueberry pie candle lol. I'm gonna pause it right there cause I havent seen this yet, but then I'll come back and finish. Love it.

[@kenfeeb355]

Loving these deep dives into relevant media. Thanks for the content 👍

[@mizotter]

Excellent analysis and discussion of an interesting-sounding film. I'm never going to see it, but I thoroughly enjoy your discussion. As a retired English/American Lit teacher, I miss classroom discussions, and this kind of video is a real treat. Thank you! Also, you're really living your dad's prophecy that you'd be a teacher AND doing a phenomenal job of it! Be well!

[@aurorasntg311]

I love that you used a picture from the Spanish version of the musical 😂 I loved it! Jan Buxaderas and Alejandro Mesa are amazing actors and singers!!❤

[@whtyc]

I find it more plausible that everything that happens after she is stabbed is a near death hallucination, just like the woman that was “resurrected”. Even when she gets “outside” it matches the resurrected woman’s description of the after life. So in reality, the character dies on the floor next to her captor and killer. At the very least, she ended him, too

[@CaramelAppleOnaStick]

I literally can’t wait for the ‘Book Of Mormon’ musical video

[@Kawaiicarly]

I was so excited when I saw this movie last Thursday with my boyfriend, and I was able to pick up on all the Mormon references thanks to you! It made the movie so much more enjoyable and thought provoking having been informed on the LDS before going in. Super excited to see you react to this!☺️

[@kimberlybaillargeon2575]

your analysis of the movie has actually enriched my experience of the movie thinking back on it

[@Langwidere903]

I’m so excited to spend the next few days pondering my experience of this film. It was fascinating. I loved the foreshadowing and the progression of his “game” from the doors, to the pie, to the ladder and the cage room. The dynamic between the girls was brilliant too, especially Sister Paxton’s personality arc.

[@viosavvy]

Ex-Mormon and new subscriber here. That was such a good synopsis of this movie! I picked up on a lot of those things, but your breakdown opened my eyes to much more of the messages being presented. People like you are important for understanding and closure I think. It's difficult to decipher this messy aftermath because we have been deceived, controlled and have trauma from organized religion. So thanks, can't wait to see more videos.

[@great_sword_gal]

As for the temple ceremony on film: there is an episode of Big Love where Barb goes to the temple and a lot of the ceremony is shown, including the secret handshakes. That scene has stayed with me since I was a kid and your videos on the temple have relieved my years-long curiosity on the topic.

[@Natalie.D]

I remember that scene and thought to myself, that must be made up, or maybe it was FLDS. But now turns out it’s typical Mormon temple stuff. Blew my mind.