Explaining the Commander Ban List to

[@TheTrojaneer]

Hi, yeah, its me! The guy who got hit by a WEASEL TUNNELER at Commandfest Atlanta! I cant believe it made it into a video let alone to Rarran lmao. Im honored, but also, demand the run-back! See you next time CGB!!!

[@XpVersusVista]

It's funny how CGB dissed your deck at first and then only won because he made it worse with the falcon replacement haha

[@TheTrojaneer]

​@@XpVersusVistaSo fun fact! The deck I was running was made to troll Voxy as it was a 1:1 copy of her winning Game Knights deck! And while CGB did successfully Weasel Tunnel me, I DID get to beat Voxy with the deck!

[@hellcopterts8895]

I hope you are aware you helped CGB to overcome his Mesa Falcon Trauma... it all went full circle in the end

[@alchemicpink2392]

The funniest aspect of this is your handle because you let CGB Trojan Horse you.

[@LucasRoth42]

> do you have 10 minutes for story time? > proceeds to tell the whole story in 1 minute

[@ninjablade2]

You know mesa falcons go fast~ 😎

[@owenf5222]

New series title: “Is a hearthstone player smarter than the commander rules committee?”

[@DarBowsong]

The answer is yes. Because any biotic organism that has never been part of the RC is smarter than them.

[@DerpHerper]

@@DarBowsong I think they sell people like you by the palette at CostCo.

[@Psychonaut165]

“Did rarran take a peak at the ban list.”

[@timiturret148]

The banlist is one of my biggest problems with Commander.

[@juliofranciscogomezstoppel1860]

@@timiturret148 is the only problem. They have to split the format. One hiper competitve as cEDH, and other waaay more tame.

[@nickwoodcock5234]

When Rarran said the part about how playing Griselbrand into Thassa's Oracle being cooler because you did it later and payed all your life, I thought "NOW your thinking like a casual commander player!"

[@JoshSweetvale]

Wait. That's the fun?! That's just replacing sadism with masochism!

[@lp.6559]

Rarran's 'EWWWWWW' for Nadu was my exact reaction when first seeing it too 😂

[@zachelkins1229]

I play Simic and that was my reaction too...

[@rajamicitrenti1374]

And they didn't even mention that an unsummon and recast of Nadu resets the 'twice per turn' on all the creatures!

[@rikudousennin1218]

​​@@rajamicitrenti1374Essence flux does it for just one blue mana :)

[@snazzycactus7535]

I have a landfall deck that has 1 spell that can possibly trigger nadu (ghostly flicker) and out of pure spite for my friends I cut a card and put nadu in it

[@liamcostello8314]

I have no idea what Wotc was thinking with this one.

[@PiousHeathen]

Rarran's observation of the tension between "fun for me" Vs "fun for everyone" is a really key balance point for commander, and I think that Nadu will be assessed on these lines eventually especially with the over representation at modern tournaments.

[@Metroid23456]

I've been playing commander for a long time, and Rarrans summation actually changed how I look at the banlist and the format.

[@dislikebutton9571]

Yeah Nadu is kind of comparable to Griselbrand at this point imo, if Griselbrand is banned for its dominance in both competitive and casual then it only makes sense for Nadu to get banned too. Its different from Griselbrand in that it can't do as much immediately on its own, but its also so cheap that you don't need to cheat mana to get it out, and playing it as commander gives access to two infamously synergistic colors instead of just mono black. In my opinion, Nadu is better than Griselbrand as a commander, but Griselbrand might still be better in the 99.

[@florinalinmarginean1135]

I feel like cards should be evaluated differently between two players and four players formats. I can see where Rarran is coming from when 1v1 formats are concerned: a powerful card gives the player using it an adrenaline rush which will make the game memorable in his mind, despite the fact the other player might be annoyed by that card. So it is good for one player and bad for the other. When it comes to commander, while one player might be having fun by casting a broken card, we have THREE other players suffering. And this is why I think commander players are saltier on average: while the 1v1 format player will get to pop off and win 50% of the time and suffer the other half, the commander player will pop off and win 25% of the time and suffer 75% of the time. This is why I believe the rules committee should act more and ban obnoxious stuff like Dockside, Thoracle or Nadu. Let's be real: very few people actually have a rule 0 conversation before a commander game. Sometimes you just sit with the people who are available to play the game that night or they only have one deck, so a rule 0 conversation won't really help, unless you are willing to kick the other player from the table. But that's just sad and socially awkward

[@andrewsparkes6275]

​@@dislikebutton9571Did you watch the video? Griselbrand wasn't banned because of its dominance in competitive and casual. It was explicitly banned in Commander because Commander has higher life totals than other formats it's already good in. Nadu isn't any better in Commander than other formats because of how Commander inherently works. Just being good in other formats isn't enough to get something banned.

[@andrewsparkes6275]

​​​​@@florinalinmarginean1135I think the salt thing is sort of right in practice, but that's because players are dumb. If something your opponent does is pissing off the two other players, that's only good for you, since they're more likely to be focused on taking that player down rather than you. I actually won a recent match with my blink deck against a Nadu, precisely because the other players were so focused on the Nadu board that they completely missed I'd set up all the pieces of my own blink combo (Impact Tremors and a Felidar Guardian exiled under a Lumbering Battlement on board, which only needs any other blink effect on the Battlement to start an infinite loop)...which they knew about from previous games, so it's not a case of them not knowing I was about to combo even if they were paying attention. They just missed something they knew all about because of their salt at Nadu. The sole reason I won is because I myself was concentrating on the board as a whole, and noticing the other players were using up all their brain-based attention and card-based interaction on Nadu, instead of being all salty myself and let it affect my own plan. I even kept back a Negate to counter any random "stop the combo" counters may play against me comboing off, instead of using it on Nadu player's Lightning Greaves. The reason players don't win against powerful stuff isn't even because the other deck is powerful half the time, it's because they ARE salty and it messes up their overall threat assessment and micro-planning of their own turns.

[@Uncle_Sunpuppy]

This video aged interestingly

[@kingusbingo5395]

33:48 One of the reasons they banned Iona in 2019 was because as they banned this card they unbanned Painter's Servant which for those who don't know makes every card a color you choose. So if they didn't ban this people would have just been able to completely lock down the game.

[@Penesco]

Yeah, I really was hoping CGB was going to mention it too. But since he didn't know what cards got unbanned he couldn't say so. Like it was Flash that was unbanned and Protean Hulk unbanned because them together were a problem (Though legal for a brief time together)

[@najawin8348]

@@Penesco "Brief" - aka 3 years of one deck ruining the format.

[@jadegrace1312]

That would be a perfectly fine lock to be legal. There's so many easier ways to win the game.

[@donb7519]

That's straight up not true. Shivam who got iona banned has said multiple times it wasn't true

[@kingusbingo5395]

@@donb7519 Oh I did not know about that statement. All I knew was that one got unbanned and the other got banned at similar times so that was the natural assumption.

[@TC-cq7oc]

6:50 - It doesn't have to be a card you own, nor even a card which is legal in the current format, but it does have to be a Magic: the Gathering card. You can name Shahrazad, but you cannot name Charizard. (Rule 201.3)

[@sapphiredraggytheflygon8521]

Oh, there goes my plan to name Pot of Greed in order to make people ask what it does. Now that I think about it, what does Pot of Greed do anyway?

[@therealax6]

@@sapphiredraggytheflygon8521 In MTG terms, it's a sorcery that draws two cards. At no cost.

[@scottwhitman9868]

​@@therealax6incorrect. You summon pot of greed to draw 3 additional cards from your deck

[@lancelee338]

Damn I was thinking about naming Sherazin, Corpse Flower

[@cold_ay_]

@@scottwhitman9868roll my dice!

[@zotha]

Conspiracy is just a multi-player draft format. There are draftable cards called conspiracies that are only legal in the associated draft format, existed outside your deck but the number you had drafted had to be announced at the start of the game. These either provided pre-game effects (like all your creatures are birds of paradise) or were like hidden trap cards that you could reveal when a certain condition was met (you name a card before the game starts and write it on the conspiracy, then you reveal the effect when you play the named card). Additionally there were cards that interacted with the actual draft process itself with effects like announcing it and putting it aside and letting you later take the entirety of the rest of a pack and then skipping all picks from the rest of that pack.

[@kevincressman1267]

both conspiracy sets were GOAT tier draft sets IMO

[@cherrickdinn]

It's such a cool concept. It was essentially a set where the game has already started when you crack your draft packs.

[@dark_rit]

Yeah I loved conspiracy draft format, like that one conspiracy worldknit that let all your lands tap for all colors of mana if you played everything you drafted was neat. It was kind of amusing how all conspiracies got banned in legacy and vintage too, like they felt the need to do that just to clarify that no, you cannot play these since some conspiracies were grossly OP like backup plan, brago's favor for combo, etc. etc. I wonder why they don't put conspiracy cards in vintage cube on mtgo or something, it would be fun to see.

[@JohnFromAccounting]

Conspiracy is possibly the most fun I've had with draft. Either that or Khans.

[@brothertobias]

Conspiracy was awesome man...

[@michelemichienzi934]

Rarran being already angry at 7 and a half minute in is exactly in line on how the commander banlist should make you feel

[@Sol0666]

Honestly every consistent playgroup should have their own banlists anyway. My playgroup banned Sol Ring, Mana crypt, Jeskas Will and Dockside and our experience has by and large been a lot more fun.

[@michelemichienzi934]

@@Sol0666 in my group we don't ban specific cards, but we build decks without infinites and mostly battle cruiser style

[@kylesmith987]

@@michelemichienzi934 Yeah my playgroup just has different decks for different types of games. We have some CEDH decks and a lot of casual decks that don't run a bunch of the crazy powerful stuff.

[@Sol0666]

@@michelemichienzi934 Yeah we do mostly that as well (at a fairly high powerlevel though), we only recently decided to hardban these cards as Sol Ring and Mana crypt just so often lead to games that completely snowballed out of control. A Turn 1 Land, mana crypt/sol ring into mana artifact is just so hard to catch up to.

[@arthurpotter9092]

The banlist is in good shape excepting a few cards that could stand to be unbanned. Certainly there's nothing that needs banning right now.

[@arlobaker2422]

*vietnam flashbacks to turn 2-3 griselbrands in every single game of commander in 2012*

[@KnucklesGum]

I remember someone playing turn 1 dark ritual into entomb, into reanimate as the first player, needless to say we lost

[@juliandacosta6841]

Isn't necropotence just as bad though?

[@MajesticSundew]

@@juliandacosta6841 With necropotence you don't get the cards until your next end step, with Griselbrand you get them immediately. Also necropotence isn't a 7/7 flier that can put the game on a clock on its own and has lifelink to pay for its own activation cost.

[@cyriltournier]

​@@juliandacosta6841It's not in the command zone. 😊

[@joshuanolte9126]

​@@juliandacosta6841 you don't get the cards immediately. Still very strong but you have to wait

[@ObscuraDeCapra]

Even if Demonic Consultation forced you to pick a card in your deck it wouldn't matter since there's only one of each card in your deck in Commander. You could just name Demonic Consultation and you're good to go.

[@ayy1222]

tbf once played, it isnt in your deck

[@Todesnuss]

Can't really do that in a paper format anyway. There isn't really rules tech for that and it'd be a logistical nightmare to police even where there's judges with deck lists.

[@Telhias]

I am pretty sure that you can simply use scry to put Tasha's oracle at the bottom of your deck, name it with DC and profit.

[@Todesnuss]

@@Telhias I mean yea it would be trivial to circumvent that restriction. You wouldn't want to use thoracle itself for the job but scry makes knowing the bottom a non-issue. With the rules nightmare required to support such a restriction it's really not worth it.

[@madsante]

Best way to implement this effect on the card would be that if you fail to find, instead of exiling you just shuffle your library and nothing happens. Doesn't completely stop the combo ofc, but adds extra steps.

[@leobardis1721]

Conspiracy was a set designed to be drafted. It introduced 'The Monarch', 'Goad', and 'Council's Dilemma' voting mechanics as well as several other draft/set specific mechanics related to the drafting experience. (ex. setting card attributes to pick#, letting you trade out drafted cards, secret objectives that operated like emblems, etc... It is a great sealed draft party if you have 8 or 10 people that play MTG for a birthday or something.

[@fweaks]

Not just drafted, but played as multiplayer after being drafted, which isn't the norm for drafts. Those first three mechanics were definitely created with multiplayer in mind.

[@obfirmoviatorem]

This is quickly becoming my favourite video series of the channel Would love more guests Mayhaps a competition with Rarran?

[@mlpocsidetrack]

Seconded

[@lukesmith1500]

Thirded

[@bananabeam5602]

fourthed

[@BCfightan]

I think Rarran is underestimating how powerful drawing 35 cards is

[@XLuxtra]

Yeaa but tbf... there is gonna be enough stuff that does equally or more egrigous stuff flyin around... Plus if you pay that much life ye prob gonna get focused hard and taken out. I really think it would be fine. Just look at fluxin Simic drawing infinite card AND ramp.

[@jadegrace1312]

​@@XLuxtraGriselbrand would not be fine. People have played no banlist cedh and Griselbrand was basically just as good as Thoracle

[@XLuxtra]

@@jadegrace1312 1st. Variance. 2nd. Who gives a shit? People act like Commander has any semblance of Balancing. Literally anything can combo even a Vanilla Omega Myr. A big Demon that can pay Life to Draw Cards aint a Deal Breaker in the Grand Scheme of things. And hey if Mono Black can play in the Big leagues of CEDH why not.

[@jni4t]

people played ad naus until very recently which is just worse griselbrand lol

[@ToSGod]

We need a Rarran episode of Worst Possible. That would be cool

[@gn0s1s]

100% this

[@maximilianobarros6196]

we need this

[@Kestral287]

CGB has invited him to be on it. The holdup is Rarran not being comfortable with Magic yet.

[@maximilianobarros6196]

@@Kestral287 maybe mtga brawl, then

[@moocowp4970]

Haha the guy barely knows how to play MTG, a commander show is probably a bit much for a new player haha. Maybe have him guest star on a Standard gameplay episode first.

[@thesarcasticliberal]

If somebody slaps down a Nadu deck in "casual" EDH, nobody is letting them join. There is no "but it's a power 6" with that mistake at the head.

[@logeymusic]

I honestly think it's harder to build Nadu weak than it is to build a powerful and annoying Nadu deck

[@ajsepti5827]

I made a nadu deck with keruga as a companion. I think that's the only way to make it somewhat casual.

[@PheonixRise666]

Not putting landfall token creation into Nadu would severely hamper the Nadu gameplan.

[@alicetheaxolotl]

I think a "casual" Nadu is very possible. It's still very powerful, but you can just use Nadu as insurance to draw cards when people blow up your stuff

[@MK-13337]

The only way for a casual Nadu is a voltron Nadu. You get an enchantress type effect that is also ramp and also insurance against removal. No combos, just Nadu and slap rancor and bear umbra and swords on the bird and go to town. No counterspells, only green/blue protection spells (Tamiyo's safekeeping etc). No combos either.

[@bishop_breloom]

Rarran being able to immediately peg Nadu as a problem is so funny 😂

[@Evelaraevia]

While still misreading why its a huge problem lmao. I doubt it would be considered for banning if it could only happen twice per turn period.

[@TheStanishStudios]

Someone get him on the design balancing team at Wizards

[@XpVersusVista]

​@@Evelaraeviathe hilarious thing about Nadu is: if his ability could trigger only once each round total, but let's you look at 2 cards at once (and "getting" both) he'd still be more balanced.Which is insane, because getting 2 cards with possible ramp for a giants growth is insane still.

[@florinalinmarginean1135]

@@Evelaraevia I mean, if my three mana commander said that I could draw two cards a turn and drop the lands I draw untapped, while resetting on each player's turn to still abuse stuff like Aphetto Alchemist and get 9 draws on turn three, I would still argue it needs to be banned

[@Gemini476]

@@Evelaraevia Every part of it's a problem, I think. Untapped lands, "twice each turn", "each creature", "or ability", even just not having "spells or ability _an opponent controls_ ". Remove any one and it's _still_ a huge problem. Remove _all_ of them and it's still a 3/4 flyer for 3 with one of the better color identities!

[@Dreznin]

Easiest way to describe Iona vs Thassa's Oracle - one says, "lets play again," while the other says, "you can't play." There's a reason why so many people hate things like land destruction and blue decks that are loaded with an abundance of counters - they prevent a lot of actions and slow down play... Iona fully halts it and since you're locked out of playing spells, you can't even play removal if you're in mono-color.

[@WarhawkTalon]

Not saying Iona shouldn't be banned, but Thassa's oracle should absolutly be banned as well. Thassa's Oracle says "Let's play again.' I say "You can't play with me anymore." I am too goddamn tired this combo resolving on turn 3. Also, Iona says you can't play one of your colours. Thassa's Oracle says you can't stop me if you don't play Blue.

[@k9commander]

​@@WarhawkTalon Thoracle MOSTLY sees play in CEDH and high power tables. If casual low powered tables were playing Thoracle at a decent rate, it would have been banned long ago. There are plenty of cards that don't get banned simply because of where they get played. Urza, Yuriko, Tergrid, Thoracle and more are not banned because low and mid power tables stay away from them. The cards that do get banned are the ones that see play everywhere.

[@singularleaf3895]

Yeah, my causal group plays thoracle, but it's not using dem consul, so it's a far more reasonably way to end the game.

[@esb422]

So the thing about Thassa's Oracle (and other "interactionless" win conditions) is that, at least in my experience, the rest of the table will just look at the "Winner" and say, "That's cool. The rest of us are going to keep playing for second place." The EDH ban list seems more geared to keeping casual, "kitchen table," multiplayer games fun. Stuff like Thassa's Oracle can kind of be ignored if everyone else agrees, and the perpetrator is socially shamed for being a degenerate. Now, if players are looking for a purely competitive and official EDH game, I'm of the opinion there needs to be a separate list for that, potentially focused more on 1v1 play.

[@Wgar1]

I once played against iona with the other two players and me playing a black, green, and golgari deck. So whatever he picked he could basically shut down 2 of the three players at the table

[@CrazyRampage]

Watching CGB dying of laughter silently during the sol ring part was hilarious

[@riverroth3688]

To add on to what you said about iona compared to Thoracle. I once had a game where my mono red burn deck was locked out by someone with Iona, and the game went on for 6 more turns around the table before I left, no one removing Iona at all since it didn't affect *their* boards. And since I was effectively 100% neutralized, I just conceded and got up. Guy who played Iona was salty since his card was no longer affecting his board and I said "yeah and I'd rather use my time to actually play a game today. Bye" It definitely needed to be banned

[@kellypaton2618]

complaining that your card eliminated a player is insane. he sounds like a sadist that just wanted to watch you suffer lol

[@drizzt102]

Also shes a flying lifelinker. My dude relax, she aint useless even if her presence isnt just destroying someone's joy and hopes

[@uguku]

Thassas Oracle would likely be banned if it was printed 10 years earlier. But in recent years, the rules commitee has pretty much given up banning anything unless it makes commander in general absolute misery

[@michaelcollins4534]

Which even then they don't do it when cards do make the format miserable.

[@luminous3558]

Yeah instead they ban stuff like golos to screw over the playerbase having fun in their own way.

[@YawgmothWasRight]

But it does make commander a misery. Unless there is a very drastic change in wotc's policy and/or the way players feel, the RC will never ban another card ever again.

[@trysephiroth007]

​@luminous3558 if you and your play group want to play Golos nothing is stopping you

[@MultiAsdag]

Which is how it should be… they already ban too much

[@Casemister36]

As someone who has never played Magic before, every time I see the card featured in the background art of the episode, I do my best impression of the "Pointing Di Caprio" meme.

[@TheSoulDivided]

I assume the Thassa's combo isn't banned because if you do it too often your friends will hit you. It self-regulates

[@munchkingod6]

It’s about punishing people who won’t stand up for themselves lmaoooo It’s legal to teach commander players to stand up to bullies

[@solkvist8668]

It’s moreso used almost exclusively in CEDH, or competitive variants of the format. Casual tables aren’t going to be doing that, but if they are you are correct that things will not go well.

[@FlowBerni]

that's the main reason^^ Also there are only 3 cards existing in the game that read like: "if your library is empty, you win the game", and Thassa's Oracle + Consultation is just the best version of emptying your library and winning from this on. There are so many variations to combo with Th'oracle and the Consultation one gave it all a bad reputation. There is a card named "Enter the infinite", which costs 12 Mana and empties your whole library. But noone would play this if you can play Consultation (emptying your library) for 1 mana. I wouldn't ban Th'oracle, I would ban Consultation and Teinted Pact.. so you can still play the Th'oracle as a combo piece, but it's much more mana you need to pull it off. Also in mtg it matters if you have something with instantspeed or sorcery speed. Consultation and Teinted Pact are both instantspeed, which makes the combo just insanely broken.

[@CloudianMH]

why is there a ban list at all if it self regulates, hm?

[@ja14732]

@@CloudianMH The EDH banlist is less to determine power level and more to prevent play patterns that are considered "toxic" at all levels of play; in fact, in all of EDH's history there is exactly 1 ban that was due to a power level concern (Flash). Whether or not that's a healthy way to balance a format is hard to decide.

[@TheGreyKing11]

Three things about Sway that make it atrocious to play in real life. First, you lose everything with the notable exception of floating mana. If you still have 4-5 mana floating around after Sway resolves, you can cast spells and come out with a considerable advantage. Second, something that doesn't get reset by sway is the amount of times you've cast your commander from the command zone. Considering a normal commander game, this may leave you with no lands and your commander costing 4-6 mana more, removing it from the game forever. Finally, resolving a sway is CONSIDERABLY worse than restarting a game because you can't mulligan, which means you only have 1 shot at a playable hand. The odds are not in your favor.

[@milanmach2379]

The fail state with Sway (which is actually playing it straight up without floating mana, suspended or phased out cards and such) is just much more miserable than Worldfire, which was unbanned a few years back. Upheaval is a more interesting conversation, it's usually never as miserable as Sway and yet is still banned.

[@nekrataali]

It doesn't matter. If your opponent resolves a 10 CMC sorcery, you deserve whatever happens next. The problem is fast mana that allow you to float mana from Sway of the Stars or do other combos with it. Tutors and things like Mana Crypt/Lion's Eye Diamond/Sol Ring/etc. are what makes Sway powerful. It's completely arbitrary to ban Sway and not Mnemonic Deluge or Time Stretch. Are you actually going to watch someone take eight turns in a row where they completely nuke one player out of the game and set the other two so far behind they can't win? Is that fun? Probably not, but (again) you let them cast a giant sorcery.

[@judjementine]

the problem with sway is it's basically 10 mana win the game without actually being to obvious about it. on a resolve each opponent would probably be better off conceding but there are a lot who won't hoping the sway player gets a bad draw. meaning everyone will have to wait for the remaining players to shuffle up and play through till one (likely the sway player) eventually wins. as they said, if players are having to shuffle up their decks anyways they'd rather just start a new game of magic. basically the game is lost, but too many casual players won't realize it.

[@Snow_Fire_Flame]

If Sway was unbanned, it'd see play in decks that have access to a blink effect, which just makes it a stylish (?) 10 mana win the game spell because your big monster will pop back into existence at the end of turn / start of your next turn / whatever. You could also use wacky stuff like Suspend to break the symmetry of Sway. It's a much cooler build-around than other win the game cards IMO.

[@florinalinmarginean1135]

And what is wrong with that? It is a 10 mana sorcery that can get you an advantage if you also float enough mana to recast your commander. The 7 life also ensures the game will end pretty fast, although commanders are out of the equation. For context, Expropriate costs 9 mana, doesn't need you to float extra mana and it's perfectly legal. It's just a random ban without a real reason behind it. If you argue it should stay banned, you should also advocate for the ban of Farewell, since it effectively restarts the game, with most players deprived of resources, although they still keep their lands. But that is ridicolous

[@zotha]

I still chuckle on the wording "brutally efficient" when talking about a 9 mana creature. Not a comment on whether it should be banned, but that wording is still so silly.

[@dinglerofl4784]

I think Rarran may be conflating "casual (playing socially, not competitively)" with "casual (doesnt spend that much time learning/minmaxing the game)" Casual players can still be great players with an amazing understanding of the game, its just theyre not out to curbstomp everyone else they play with because they're here to have fun. Brian Kibler (Hall of Famer) and Olivia Gobert-Hicks (Literally on the Commander Rules Committee) have a show where they play commander for funzies and its just a chill time where you can mostly mess around.

[@kanyda1]

This is a great point. I used to play competitively and do well. At this point in my life I just prefer chillin with the homies, playing battle cruiser and seeing what happens with our crazy board states. The games are just way more chill and sometimes we see the whackiest outcomes because things aren't optimized.

[@vaspeter2600]

Casual players can be excellent, of course, but the *average* casual player probably doesn't have a particularly towering skill level.

[@dinglerofl4784]

@@vaspeter2600 I'm mostly referring to when Rarran questions commander players' ability to understand how good fast mana or card draw is because its a "casual" format, despite mana and card advantage being pretty generically good in magic, and something most players who play magic at least somewhat often should know about. At the end of the day, magic is a game played by magic players, and while there are new players figuring things out, the vast majority of the player base is somewhat experienced.

[@vaspeter2600]

@@dinglerofl4784 Yeah, that's fair. Although I wouldn't guess that the vast majority of the players are somewhat experienced - I suspect there are more players out there who just treat it as an excuse to hang out than you give it credit for.

[@dinglerofl4784]

@@vaspeter2600 Fair enough, though imo magic is probably too complicated for someone who isn't trying to learn to keep up with (unless their entire pod operates like that) long term.

[@rexxraul]

The only thing I'd like Rarran to learn is about casual players - casual commander players *definitely* know that fast mana is good and they *definitely* know that card drawing is good.

[@jordanking4834]

Thank you! I was getting so annoyed. “I don’t think casual players understand how good it is to draw cards.”

[@Jammonstrald]

I've had discussions where a card that allows your opponent to draw two cards for letting you draw one is good, and I was in the huuuuge minority saying it's never good to pay resources to allow your opponent to draw twice as many cards as you. From what I can tell casual players still undervalue card draw.

[@Sol0666]

@@Jammonstraldthat is more a Sign of players overvaluing their own carddraw though. Not undervaluing it.

[@nekrataali]

@@Jammonstrald Arcane Denial is a totally viable card in EDH because it cantrips while also letting you boost someone who's behind so they can go after someone else. It's like paying half of one group to kill the other half. Trade Secrets was banned for similar reasons.

[@YourAdHere4]

@@nekrataaliarcane denial gives the spell’s controller 2 cards so you’re really only “boosting” a struggling player by being an asshole to them and countering their spell lol trade secrets was banned cuz it allowed 2 players to draw their whole decks, not because it was some sort of amazing political tool. It basically removed 2 players from the game because there’s no way you beat 2 decks that just drew 80 cards

[@wire_hall_medic8470]

Rarran is getting pretty good at these. Step 1: "Holy shit, this card is bonkers." Step 2: "It could be banned for [guesses correct reason]." Step 3: Vacillate about whether or not that's just over the ban line.

[@gn0s1s]

Important probably to point out, that painter's servant unbanning was why emeria was banned, though not sure how much play servant now sees compared to what emeria did see.

[@Ulubai]

That's pretty much the expected outcome, Iona was unfun to play against, and painter is just neat tech

[@SyrKonrat]

Iona was played WAY too much at my locals. It was a pain to run Unstable Obolisk and Duplicant in every mono-deck. When it was banned, I rejoiced 😊

[@Sivarias]

​@@SyrKonrat also scour from existence

[@Dhips.]

I play painter in my mill deck. My only reason is Painter is my favorite legacy deck and I want the dopamine rush of getting the combo

[@dark_rit]

I thought Iona did get banned way back when as a commander or something because it is just hey you're monocolor? Name that color. It's a really messed up effect in a casual format because it's basically a 1 card lockpiece it's not some critical mass of lockpieces or something it's just...Iona.

[@mimpbusiness]

The reason stuff like Griselbrand and Emrakul are banned but Thoracle isn't is because the banlist is designed to protect mid to low level pods from accidentally ruining games. When someone puts Thoracle + Consultation in their deck they know what they're doing, and they're probably aiming to play a high-power game of commander or cedh. When someone puts Emrakul in their mono green stompy ramp deck and accidentally tortures their casual playgroup by slowly annihilating all their lands, that's not their fault. They were just trying to put another big flashy creature in their dumb timmy deck and have fun.

[@najawin8348]

Also sometimes even mid level pods need an escape hatch if a game goes on too long. It serves a role in the ecosystem. It does so _too well,_ to the point where midrange consult decks are basically the entire top end of the format. But it actually sorta kinda vaguely makes sense as a card in a format where flash hulk no longer exists. (The "or equal" clause is really, imo, the biggest offender on that card. If it was gone I think the card would be far healthier.)

[@shavedata5436]

I played in a low power no banlist pod for a few years and honestly I thought emrakul was fine

[@jadegrace1312]

Yeah except that doesn't work for Emrakul because 15 mana is a perfectly acceptable rate to only maybe win the game over like 6 turns

[@TheTamally]

In magic in general, and especially highlander formats, drawing cards is the most powerful thing you can do. Griselbrand is banned because he lets you draw an absurd amount of cards for essentially free at a moments notice. There are so many way to get him into your graveyard and reanimate him. As the power of the average card goes up, so too does the power of his ability because it lets you draw those powerful cards. It's templating was designed when that wasn't as big of an issue, but it being instant speed and reusable is why it is so insane.

[@Sol0666]

Yeah I normally agree with CGBs assessments and mostly disagree with the Commander banlist but Griselbrand is not fine! Even the much much less powerful Vilis can be an absolute Powerhouse and is basically a must remove card or a must remove player. Its just too easy to bring out and overwhelm everyone with card advantage. Griselbrand has to be banned.

[@neoneanderthal2658]

Sheoldred the Apocalypse says hi. Then kills the entire table.

[@andreakevin8685]

​@@neoneanderthal2658 What about Orcish Bowmasters. They are played in Vintage as well. Furthermore, 6 mana Atraxa Is a better improvement since It avoids Orcish and provide a huge amount of card advantage with 0 risk and a better body.

[@neoneanderthal2658]

@@andreakevin8685 Those are both powerful cards, but my comment was made with the idea that Gristlebrand was legal. His ability isn't once per turn and neither is Sheoldred. I did make a bit of a mistake in my original thought process. For whatever reason I thought his effect would cause Sheoldred to use her effect as if a wheel had resolved(one of my Forge adventure decks has both Sheo and Wheels - deal 14 damage, gain 14 life and possibly screw your opponent's hand), which wouldn't happen. You'd just gain 70-80 cards and life - but since your opponents aren't drawing along with you Sheoldred wouldn't actually kill them. So it isn't an 11 mana instant win off 1 card.

[@SandroSegadora]

Griselbrand used to be a really good card back when it was released. Maybe back then it deserved to be on the banlist. In 2024, Griselbrand is a sad joke and has been powercrept. In formats where Griselbrand is legal and there are decks that could play him and cheat him into play he doesn't see any play basically. The Creativity deck that was played in Modern before Mh3 was cheating in Archon of Cruelty, the Goryo's Vengeance deck does play 1-2 copies of Griselbrand, but it plays 4 copies of Atraxa which is the main reanimation target in that deck. In Legacy UB Reanimator is the best deck right now and it doesn't even run Griselbrand. Sneak & Show prefers Atraxa as well. In Vintage the Oath of Druids deck prefers Atraxa as well.

[@gleeber5449]

CGB trying to restrain himself while rarran was giving his initial thoughts about sol ring is the best part of this video

[@Square1286Kev]

Few things. The commander banlist was not initially intended to be a hard and fast list. It was originally a guideline that highlighted cards to use as examples for the kinds of cards your playgroup might want to ban. Over time everyone just adopted it and it sort of turned into something it wasn't initially intended to be, thus some of the goofy inclusions. Additionally, nowadays they don't ban for power level. They ban for casual player play experience. Thassa's oracle ends the game quickly and efficiently and players can move on. Griselbrand getting cheated out and the player drawing 21 cards, but not winning the game, usually creates a miserable experience for the rest of the table for the rest of the game. That is the type of reasoning that explains modern bans. I agree they should overhaul the ban list to be more consistent one way or the other.

[@roguebanshee]

Prior to EDH becomming Commander, it was definitely a "We suggest your group think about not playing cards like these". But after the format was officially adopted by Wizards (as well as implemented into MtGO), the banlist was treated as a hard rule with anything on it being as much banned as P9 in Legacy and anything not on it being fair game. Heck, Kokusho was on the EDH 'banlist' as a "Not fun to play against due to massive impact and ease of recursion" card. But around a year after the Commander change the dragon was completely legal in the format.

[@marc-andredeslauriers7687]

Yep. I hypothetically intend to build the blue X/black win the game turn 2, then do all the LGS and win free prizes because the ban community in this format is hilarious

[@jack21222]

This kind of brain-twisting logic is why I'll never play commander.

[@nekrataali]

@@jack21222 I absolutely hate it as someone who actually liked the format back when I played it, but quit because the banlist is just whatever Sheldon lost to at a prerelease. Whether they like it or not, EDH's banlist effects card prices. My favorite formats are Legacy and Vintage. EDH cuts into those because of its made-up nonsense. Mishra's Workshop, Lion's Eye Diamond, Bazaar of Baghdad, Gaea's Cradle, Mox Diamond, ABUR duals, and so on are all at inflated prices because of EDH. EDH really needs to be broken up into different eras (like Standard vs. Modern vs. Legacy) and they could fix a lot of the format's problems by getting rid of the fast mana and tutors. Like marc above said, you can make broken combo decks that win on turn 2 in EDH. And people can't stop you because they don't have 4x Force of Will in their deck to mulligan for or a sideboard. EDH is a $5,000 turn three format. It shouldn't be, but it is and it affects every other format.

[@AnonymousProffession]

​@@nekrataali I agree that the older ban list cards are extremely silly. The reserve list is way more impactful to the price of those listed cards than EDH. Cards legal in commander that aren't on the reserved list (and aren't from Portal Three Kingdoms because that also only got one printing) top out at $180 and, aside from mana crypt, most cards are $100 or less. If it's over $180, it's scarcity due a lack of reprints that made the prices high, not EDH. So much has to go right for a T2 win. If you wanted to win, you'd need to get both cards from your 99 singleton pile into your hand, have fast mana, and hope no one at the table casts Force of Will, Fierce Guardianship, Pact of Negation, Force of Negation, Mental Mistep, Daze, Swan Song, An Offer You Can't Refuse, Red Elemental Blast, Strix Serenade, Pyroblast, Flusterstorm, Tibalt's Trickery, Imp's Mischief, Silence, Dress Down, or makes you draw a card at instant speed. It should be very telling that the best deck right now is arguably Blue Farm, a deck with a three and four mana commander that just draw cards, and Tivit, a 6 mana creature that needs to be able attack to win. Two of the other top commanders right now can't even run the combo because they only play blue and green. TLDR: It's not a T3 format and the best decks only cost $5,000 because Wizards refuses to reprint dual lands.

[@InvaderTim7]

Even though it was a joke, the words "our last video together" genuinely made me shudder. Genuinely love the chemistry you two guys have in all your videos

[@Chris_seh]

Showing Rarran Karakas JUST as MTGRemy made a video about Karakas is soooo good

[@nachomanrandy]

Caracas is the capital of Venezuela. Wonder if its referance.

[@Dooferification]

An easy way to think about the ban list in terms of action per turn. If you are ever taking all the actions (grisslebrand) or if you take the only action (auto wins) its probably a target of a ban

[@FlowBerni]

I think you should show him "Entomb" and "Reanimate". The possibility to have next to any creature on your battlefield as soon as turn 1. Because the mana symbols and mana cost always get's them but you can have any creature on your battlefield for just 1 mana with "reanimate".

[@dark_rit]

Yeah it's not hard to cheat out griselbrand and drawing that many cards does just win the game on the spot usually and even if it doesn't, you can probably draw more and win over a few turns.

[@Kurse_of_Kall]

40:48 Two key things about Sway of the Stars that MUST be considered here, and why it is definitely worthy of a ban: 1. Rarran‬ said he wasn't sure how to break this. The simplest way is to ramp a TON, then cast this and float all the extra mana. So now you're starting a new game with 7 life, but you have 10 mana to immediately spend on new "turn 1". That's a HUGE advantage and you almost certainly will snowball it into a win, especially with the super low life totals. So Sway of the Stars might as well just say "10 mana win the game 10 minutes from now", which is obviously not great for the other players who know they probably can't catch back up to the headstart you got, but aren't *actually* dead yet to go start a new game. It's also possible to have multiple things on the stack at the same time, and notably Sway of the Stars doesn't clear the stack. So you could have Sway of the Stars and several other spells essentially queued up at the same time (or things in exile coming in next turn via Suspend etc), once again breaking the symmetry that the "new game" is supposed to have. 2. Keep in mind some decks are WAY better at quickly dealing 7 damage than others, so Sway of the Stars is not nearly as fair/symmetrical as it might look. Even just a 1 mana 2/2 or a deck with a cheap ramp spell into a hastey 3/3 on turn 2, or a deck with a bunch of "burn" spells that deal damage directly to an opponent's face are suddenly extremely lethal threats. Compare that to the much slower grindier deck that's trying to control the game and slowly snowball and advantage... well that player suddenly doesn't stand a chance with all its resources reset and at 7 health. And again, the player who cast Sway of the Stars likely knows this and has their deck built to take advantage.

[@cameton_youtube]

I think the logic w/ thoracle is that it's hard to abuse by accident. The things it combos with are pretty specific, so it creates pretty clear categories of "runs thoracle+consultation" or "does not". In that regard, I think it's pretty easy to self-moderate out of your games EDIT: Also, I would argue that low cmc instant speed tutors/library exilers like tainted pact and consultation are more egregious than thoracle

[@Nightmare-fe9hr]

on the other hand, thoracle is the most boring way to abuse all the graveyard sifting. It is, quite simply, a card that says "if you built your deck for this, win". The archetype of deleting your whole deck and having a cool explosive turn is awesome. But when you cap it off with a card that just says the text "win the game", it reduces counterplay to specifically counterspells. In addition, it benefits greatly from a number of effects that sift through your deck; if you use the right cards, then your tutors or effective tutors are also directly building to the win state. I agree that a similar card should not be banned, but thassa's oracle specifically creates a perfect storm of competitive optimization that harms formats.

[@cameton_youtube]

@@Nightmare-fe9hr that's fair! I guess I don't personally mind too much as long as the overall strategy is reasonably interactable (e.g. a removable mill/draw engine, rather than a 1/2-mana instant)

[@Kredian]

If Thassas had the text “if thassas is still on the battlefield, you win” then it would be a lot better. You would need to keep it on the battlefield and your opponents could remove it in response to you getting rid of your library. That’s the thing about Jace and Lab Man. You can remove them in response to them drawing cards. Do they have protection? Probably. But it’s a lot more interactable.

[@DeDeDarth]

Fun fact. Erayo, Soratami Ascendant is banned in ALL Two-Headed Giant constructed tournaments, in addition to any other banlist of the format See MTG Tournament rule 9.5 - Two-Headed Giant Constructed Rules.

[@fightscrime]

Griselbrand loops were "The first few turns are build up to Griselbrand, the turn after Griselbrand is "In response to anything I pay 7, draw 7, respond with ____ spell for the situation, oh didn't get a response, pay 7, draw 7" and a lot of the time it was coming out 3 or 4 turns earlier everytime due to Dark ritual or Kaalia of the Vast(cheats a demon into play on attack)as a commander made it just one of those "I always get this card" cards.

[@zephiel1932]

So ban ritual? All these cards are broken due to fast mana and pushed ramp and all the broken stuff becomes way more fair.

[@DerpHerper]

@@zephiel1932 So argue in bad faith? Griselbrand is arguably one of the most desirable reanimation targets and makes for a bad play pattern for the table. It's an excellent signpost ban.

[@OMGclueless]

The fact that there are legitimate, non-problematic reasons to play the card adds to the reasons for banning it. A card is way harder to Rule 0 if half the table thinks it's a cool big demon and the other half thinks it's a degenerate combo piece, than it is if there's no conceivable reason to play it except as a combo win-con.

[@zephiel1932]

@@DerpHerper but there's literally hundreds of cards that are like that, by that reasoning why is etali not banned?? Etali is way more punishing early than griselbrand will ever be, why not ban krirrk?? They can literally play half their deck in one turn by burning life, and if its the card advantage that's the problem why is necro legal?? Its a terrible kneejerk ban, while ridiculous cards like rhystic study are legal, the commander ban list is terrible and should be entirely ignored.

[@DerpHerper]

@@zephiel1932 "It's an excellent SIGNPOST BAN" it's sending a message to the community that paying life in this format is very powerful and should be considered as such. Grisel and Yawgmoth's are the strongest versions of these effects and it's a great way to tell the community what belongs in high power pods. Grisel is way more consistent versus Rhystic and is way easier to get online than Etali due to its colors. If it were unbanned it would be by far the most groan-inducing card at many casual tables.

[@michaeladamson473]

I just want to say that I used to play magic and I used to play hearthstone; I don’t play either anymore but I love your collaboration! It’s a beautiful celebration of knowledge structured in as entertaining a way as possible :)

[@tobiaskrieger9481]

The sol ring reaction 😄 and now show him mana crypt 🤣😂

[@magnusprime962]

The funny thing about Mana Crypt is it basically has been priced out of most casual games. Sure, it’s a powerful card, but is it really worth $150 when you could buy three precons for the same price? Unless you’re a cEDH player or a pub-stomper you’re not likely to bother. I know I’m not.

[@soulslikefan6760]

Welllllllll.....

[@nomukun1138]

The Thassa's oracle + Demonic Consultation combo is fun to watch on Magic Online because you have to select a card name for the Demonic Consultation, and any card not in your deck will work. One of the first cards in the alphabetic card name picker is Abandon Hope.

[@AlexSolaire]

Personally i think the reason for Thassa´s Oracle not being banned in Commander, that somehow everyone outside of cedh basically agreed on not running this card. I only ever considered playing it in CEDH and never crossed my mind to play it in a normal game, i never saw it outside of cedh either maybe an anomaly of probability maybe not.

[@darkinsanity98473]

People who aren't looking to pub stomp and who know general etiquette are usually not going to play Thassa's Oracle combos outside of CEDH. It's a self regulating format, bans are usually not necessary.

[@marc-andredeslauriers7687]

@@darkinsanity98473except for all those cards banned for no real reason outside of « it made some people sad ». The logic is non existent.

[@arandombard1197]

You can only play this once in EDH, then they're just going to not play with you again.

[@fsaavedrap]

I've played it on my merfolk deck without any combo, it can be solid for digging for an answer.

[@Beisser76]

That's probably the reason, but if the rules committee would consider cEDH they should ban it as well. That format is dominated by Thoracle Consult and has been for as long as I can remember.

[@SpinAroundU]

1:10:45 That genuine burst of laughter when Rarran understood you can target Nadu yourself was golden 😂

[@mapadoo]

Man, I'm glad Dockside and Nadu aren't banned! Oh wait..... 2 months is a long time, isn't it?

[@FreddyChoppins]

I love how fast he saw Sol Ring was broken. "So it's like Innervate...and you could do that every turn?" "Yeah, it's a permanent." "That's broken. I hate it"

[@notjohn2774]

Cant wait for the deck building episode with Rarran for commander

[@EstimatedAdam]

Been loving CGB for years and have no reason to follow Hearthstone content, but I absolutely love these episodes with Rarran. His insight and humor are both impeccable. Love y'all. Thanks a bunch!!!!

[@Xedrathor]

Can’t wait for the eventual CGB builds a commander deck with Rarran

[@jajob13]

34:32 I think what Rarran is missing is that if someone does a turn 2 win, we just shuffle up and play a second game. Maybe ask the combo player to play a different deck. Iona and similar cards represent "don't-lose con" cards. They don't push your game plan forward. They simply make it harder to lose. Most of these cards are fine, but in my opinion, Iona was too far. It can take one or more players completely out of the game. The other players are not incentived to remove it because it opens up more players back into the game. And the players who are Iona locked won't leave because there is a chance they could be back in the game at any moment. Prior to its banning, all of my monocolored decks had an Unnstable Obelisk and a Scour from Existence, just so I could hopefully deal with an Iona if one was played. In my opinion, if you need to include a seven mana removal spell just to feel agency against a card, then that card is the problem and is right to be banned.

[@beefchalupa]

It's also actually unfun for everyone including the person who plays it, so it kinda self polices. Like, you draw the combo and win turn 2.. okay. Did you have any fun, or express any skill or creativity? Nope. And you quickly learn to not play that deck because it's not fun for anybody, including yourself. You don't sit down for a game of Risk hoping to win on turn 2

[@m.r.r.2636]

Agree about the Iona-lock being more problematic than straight out combo-wins. Many Commander Rules Committee card bans are due to the impact on the social contract/nature of the format. Many of whom revolve around resource denial. Also a reason why most people avoid land destruction, because slowing down the game is not encouraged when it already takes more than an hour to complete a non-CEDH Commander game.

[@MrMarnel]

Loved the episode. I think Rarran got a couple misconceptions about cEDH though, the format isn't just wham-bam 3 mana I win. Resource management, denial and interaction is a huge part of it. Basically yeah, you may get the nuts but usually you don't so tutors are great, card draw to get you more interaction, mana and stax pieces is great. I have no doubt that if Leovold was legal in the format he'd be a great Commander as he gives you 3 colours and is pretty taxing. In addition, it should be mentioned that the RC does NOT ban with cEDH in mind. The one time they have was Flash in 2020 and that happened after a LOT of community pressure to acknowledge that the subformat exists and was incredibly dominated by Flash-Hulk combos at the time (usually ending in Thoracle ofc). Their announcement at the time read to a lot of people as a condescending "fine you can have this, now stop bothering us" and IMO added to the growing list of dissatisfaction with the RC's management. Thassa's Oracle is still legal probably largely because the community self-regulates well on it, knows that it's not a casual table card and avoids it and balancing the top of the format isn't in the RC's interests. I've seen house rules, usually for Cubes, that turn Chaos Orb into basically Vindicate, removing the manual dexterity requirements of the card. Just 2 to cast, 1, T, sac: destroy target permanent. I'm a fan of it. Griselbrand is certainly format-warping for mid-level EDH. Everyone has easy access to reanimation or steal spells and even 1-2 activations can turn the game into Archenemy. Iona didn't deserve it. :( Conspiracy and Conspiracy: Take the Crown were supplemental sets designed to be drafted and played in multiplayer games, either free-for-all or 2-headed giant. This means their cards are only legal in formats like Legacy, Vintage and Commander and the nature of being designed for multiplayer made them a great fit for cards being ported to Commander decks. They also included some cards that are only playable during or affect the drafting process. Marchesa, seen recently in OTJ, was from Conspiracy. And while I'm not overly familiar with the format I do believe Leovold has seen some Legacy play. Nadu is just busted man, w t f.

[@OneSet84]

These videos with Rarran have been my favorites as of late! As someone who's played Magic since Tempest, AND played enough Hearthstone to have a good grasp on the mechanics, I get to enjoy these videos with knowledge from BOTH sides. I could watch you guys review cards all day long. PLEASE KEEP THEM COMING!!!! Because YOU'RE COOL!!!

[@christopherlundgren1700]

Half of these interactions: Rarran: asks a bizarre question CGB: points something out Rarran: “Oooh I get it!!” Rarran: says something that proves he doesn’t get it

[@JoshSweetvale]

If Rarran were a smart man, he'd stop asking questions. Which would be bad product.

[@wesomek]

@55:00 in, I called paradox engine being banned a year in advance, not because I hated the card, but because it's a cast trigger with very little in game interaction save for a handful of cards. Cast triggers are one of the most powerful effects in the game that very few cards can interact with and many of which are unplayable.

[@GamePlayMetal]

I think Rarran keeps forgetting that with cards like Dockside extorsionist, the effect is basically multiplied by 3 in commander vs 1 on 1

[@nachomanrandy]

Cant blame him. He just knows 1v1.

[@neoneanderthal2658]

That's nothing. Eraiyo flipped will counter one spell for EACH opponent EACH turn. Someone else decides to cast an instant on your opponent's turn, it not only gets countered - the guy playing STILL has a counter against him since he didn't cast anything. A lot of...not that good cards can go crazy in commander.

[@magnusprime962]

@@neoneanderthal2658If he hasn’t yet, CGB should really show Rarran Rhystic Study. That’s the dictionary definition of a card that scales up the more players you have. It’d be the perfect example of how things are different.

[@neoneanderthal2658]

@@magnusprime962 Check out the Bernie Sanders proxy of RS.

[@sharlockshacolmes9381]

Rarran speedrunning the "hating the committee" any% before playing his first game of commander

[@TehHellequin]

The fact that Saw In Half didn't make it to test Rarran is a real shame. It would be phenomenal to hear his reaction to the concept.

[@wurgel1]

let's be honest. There is only 1 card to be named with consultation. "You are already dead"

[@sapphiredraggytheflygon8521]

Okay that got a chuckle out of me

[@profozpin227]

"Lead pipe" is pretty good so you can tout that you are beating them with a lead pipe Other honorable mentions: Holy cow Damn Asmoranomardicadaistinaculdacar

[@Dhips.]

My go to is "Blood for the Blood God"

[@christopherlundgren1700]

I’m pretty partial to “Rabid Wombat”. I just think it’s independently funny.

[@CameronSMoore]

I like naming weakness, because, “My deck has no Weakness!”

[@Some_Context]

Small note but it's arguable that the best combo in cEDH isn't Thoracle but Underworld breach, though it's nowhere near as streamlined. Reason being is that breach lets you turn any tutor in your deck into a 1 card wincon as long as you have enough resources to make it work and it's a better card on it's own, often winning you the game without needing to combo. Edit: if you do this again show him Ad Nauseum lol

[@muditjohar5323]

Intuition and as nauseum already give u 1 card win cons more reliably without any setup. Thoracle is definitely better since it is so much harder to interact with outside of trying a counter war. U cast thoracle and if the opponent tries silencing u can still demonic. If the opponent tries removing thoracle is doesn’t matter. It is also usually safer to go for since u aren’t exiling ur library unless the thoracle trigger goes on the stack, in which case u will win anyways. Breach had a lot more interaction points by removing the breach or exiling the graveyard and is thus the second best combo

[@BigChimpEnergy]

1:06:48 Conspiracy was a "draft matters" type of set that was created with multiplayer in mind. That's why all of the Conspiracy card types (the ones that start in the Command Zone) and similar cards that say "as you draft this" are banned in every constructed format, because they only work in limited formats like draft and cube.

[@sampy1004]

Sway of the Stars, hold priority, Teferi’s Protection? Now that’s a spicy meatball

[@seangoldman6833]

Generate 20-25 mana, cast Sway of the Stars, cast your new hand with the floating mana.

[@ericaschner3283]

Or even just some suspended creatures a few turns earlier

[@wurgel1]

even just floating 10 mana can be gameending.

[@milanmach2379]

That's basically what you can do with Worldfire since its unban. And the reason that's unbanned and Sway isn't is Worldfire is much more likely to actually win the game. Even straight up Worldfire puts the game at knife's edge and doesnt feel like a reset since all that's been played is gone.

[@florinalinmarginean1135]

@@seangoldman6833 I don't think you need Sway of the Stars to win the game if you have access to 20-25 mana XD

[@tholzak]

14:54 FYI: There is only 1 R in Shahrazad. It is not pronounced as Charizard. 33:19 Commander wasn't a format since 2011, so it was legal for 'only' 8 years before it got the hammer. Also, around 58:40 when @Rarran realized how toxic this card is I can't help to think somebody should introduce him to a Stax EDH deck.

[@Cow-Moth-With-A-CRT-Head]

We have CGB collab-ing with Rarran, and Rarran collab-ing with Frost Prime, now we just need to get Frost Prime to collab with CGB and the cycle will be complete.

[@Joseph125]

Rarran and Frost have both collaborated with MTG Noah, we can make a bigger loop.

[@pccalvoluarca]

I love this videos dude, i love the chemistry and the approach from the outside, learning more about magic, great work guys!

[@kevincressman1267]

round 2 of hoping for rarran commander content, possibly with a "friendly orb-theme" deck

[@dkznikolaj7013]

I love how Rarran has gotten the standard "Everything is worse (as in more broken) if it can be used in blue" mindset

[@Hanmacx]

Imo Island should be banned because it can produce Blue

[@paintpaw5638]

Thassa's isn't banned for a few reasons. 1. It's a clear win con spell either you win the game or you don't, so it can't drag out a game, nor does it take away player agency/ end the game without winning the game 2. They don't ban based on specific combos (for EDH atleast), but on the card by itself, which makes it similar to other alt win con cards 3. It largely stays in CEDH and not EDH/ casual which the banlist is focused on maintaining.

[@naphackDT]

The most important point is actually that the rules committee doesn't care about what consenting adults do to each other behind closed doors. Anyone putting thoracle in their deck does so deliberately, with clear intent to use it as a cutthroat deck tech. What concerns the rules committee is mostly accidental or incidental toxicity that an inexperienced player might randomly stumble into.

[@underdogstory3111]

Conspiracy 2: Take the Crown is my favorite draft format of all time. The product attempted to find middle ground between two of the most popular ways to play: casual multi-player and drafting. Drafted in normal 8-player pods and played in 4-player free for all games. Notable features include Conspiracies (cards that are drafted and sit outside the game but affect your deckbuilding. Similar to Companions), and draft-matters cards (cards that are revealed when drafted and either affect the draft itself or gain effects when picked). Unfortunately, many established drafters dismissed the conspiracy sets as gimmicks, and the more casual players didn't see any value in needing to draft before their multi-player games. Based on sales relative to other products at the time, and of other non-standard sets released after it (Battlebond and UB), we are unlikely to see another Conspiracy set.

[@Crunchatize_Me_Senpai]

I’m curious what the turn 1 win with Thoracle is. I can’t think of any cards that would enable you to get 2 blue and 1 black mana turn 1, or set you up to play the spells for free. Thought of one way, although requires you to have 4 specific cards in hand plus an untapped black land: 1) Untapped black land, Dark Ritual 2) 1st black mana: Cast Entomb, search for Thoracle, put it into your graveyard 3) 2nd black mana: Cast Consultation, exile your library 4) 3rd black mana: Cast Reanimate, return Thoracle to the battlefield, win the game If there’s a less convoluted way do let me know!

[@15kalas15]

the grislebrand disrespect

[@kingsam178]

13:45 you couldn't ripe a chaos orb to destroy multiple thing since your deck would become 99 card so no longer legal disqualifying you.

[@nathanialtrujillo5605]

What if you had a replacement available

[@methany8788]

Still loving this series so much. Keep 'em coming

[@GaleStream]

Scrolling through the time feed to see if Iona made it into this video lol

[@arrivtuber]

My guess for why Oracle is not banned is because not many people play the combo in casual (at least not enough to make it a wide spread problem) and in competitive most people don't want it banned. It and breach are the most powerful things in cedh and while almost all blue/black decks run the combo it is not opressive to the point where we need it banned. Thoracle will probably only be banned when it becomes to prevalent in casual or when cedh players start to complain about it like it was with flash. I've played no banlist cedh and grizzlebrand absolutly wrecks when he resolves, in cedh it's basically like resolving necropotenz you either have it and win on the spot or get wrecked because you're to low but I can see that the discard aspect might take to long for casual. I think the biggest problem with sway the stars is that you don't get a mulligan so if you shuffel up and draw really bad you might end up just sitting there doing nothing until someone else ends the game.

[@hi-i-am-atan]

i think the heart of the rule zero counterpoint is something that makes a lot of sense, it's just that bringing up rule zero itself is a _very_ indirect statement: the commander banlist is pretty much irrelevant, because of the shift of the commander culture from being centrally governed by the committee to being governed by individual playgroups, meaning the banlist itself really ain't more than a time capsule. so newer cards end up off the banlist despite doing exactly what older cards on the banlist do but better, and said old cards get stuck on there despite being easily outclassed by legal stuff, because ... who really cares what's on there? events not running their own banlists, mostly. so the banlist conforms to the needs of those while letting everyone else set the rules ( explicitly or implicitly ) for their own table

[@Kestral287]

The problem is that a lot of people do have to care what's on there. A ton of people play at an LGS, which means your effective playgroup is substantially larger than normal and you can't effectively R0 out cards. I can't really get all thirty or forty people that show up at my LGS at varying points together to say hey we should ban Thoracle thoughts? And even if I do, that doesn't help when someone new shows up who doesn't know about it.

[@smwg4187]

Rarran aka "it's tough" is back

[@kwagmeijer26]

The conspiracy sets were multiplayer draft sets, meant to play typical draft games except in groups of 4, and it was printed with cards that interact uniquely with the draft itself.

[@Mors]

What a hearthstone-warming story about mesa falcon at the end.

[@castillejan]

I run Thoracle in one deck, and it’s not even there as a part of a combo, it’s there as a shortcut. For reference, this is a deck that plays exclusively at pods where things like hard stax decks are the everyday, mass land destruction is totally acceptable, and the whole table getting stripmine locked on turn two is a common occurrence. My friends and I go hard, and have zero mercy for each other. The deck is a super high power Izzet deck, that wins by removing itself from the library. The deck can be in exile, in hand, or in the graveyard, doesn’t matter, but the moment it’s not in the library anymore the game is over through any number of lines. It can make infinite mana, take infinite turns, do infinite damage, mill everyone out, draw everyone out, permanently remove every permanent from everyone’s board, infinitely recur interaction, basically whatever it wants. However, all of those lines take time to demonstrate, so the deck runs a Thoracle so I can shortcut the win and we can all shuffle up and play again.

[@Dhips.]

Some people might hate it, but It really is fun having three other people playing the strongest decks possible with you. It's like some final fight anime shit and I'm all for it.

[@castillejan]

@@Dhips. it’s the best version of the game by far. It’s just low enough below cEDH that you have access to a huge card pool and all the creativity and self expression that comes with that along with retaining the strategic aspect of cEDH. The games are fast, super interactive and dynamic, and almost always determined not by who’s spent to most money on their deck or got the luckiest, but by who made the best choices and decisions. That creativity, strategy, and decision making is what made me fall in love with MTG as a whole.

[@Dhips.]

@@castillejan 100%

[@NovaCorpLive]

This is exactly what I needed at a boring day at work. Thank you mesa falcon guy!

[@ubermenschen01]

The Commander ban list criteria is mostly "Imagine the worst possible 'that guy' playing this card. You know the one, the most selfish, miserable, whiney, cruel, petty bastard. Is it a fucking miserable time? If so, then it goes on the list."

[@Chaunwilkerson]

One word... drannith magistrate

[@kk-995]

Yall have no idea how much I enjoy these, it's always the highlight of my week. Keep up the great work ❤

[@buttonasas]

Rarran picked up on the card being printed in 2024 just a few seconds later than me and he was so on point this whole video! ...and now I'm looking at the LAST CARD, OMG, YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WERE DOING, CGB!

[@KingInferno3]

“Weasel tunneler-ed someone in Commander” is an amazing line to end the video

[@fabrizziopignatta8270]

I really would love to see Rarran playing commander

[@chuckwagon3718]

Get Rarran on CGB's commander show!

[@fabrizziopignatta8270]

Oh pleaseeeeeee ​@@chuckwagon3718

[@Nathanael_Forlorn]

Thassa isn't banned, because the casual community just isn't playing it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ It's a-ok in cedh and casual just doesn't run it. No need for official bans. It's basically shadow banned. :D

[@tlamy1992]

This comment will probably just get buried, but since CGB asked: The Conspiracy sets were specifically built for drafting, not Commander. You would still play the games 1v1. The gimmick was that some cards had effects DURING the draft, which was really unique.

[@toolittletoolate]

Turn Zero conversation is actually a term from Dungeons and Dragons that was adopted by commander. The conversation the DM has with their players about what the players want from the campaign and what they can expect. You can't play an evil slaying paladin if it's an evil campaign etc.

[@bencemolnar4231]

That weasel tunnelered story I feel like could make for a somewhat viral shorts!

[@nachomanrandy]

Mesa Falcón in my veins

[@davioliveira7233]

Ngl, my favorite series on KZbin right now. This duo is peak content!

[@thedanktank8434]

My thoughts on why thoracle isn’t banned, is it isn’t a Timmy card like grislebrand, I’ve played a fair share of commander, and players like to play with the biggest baddest cards like griselbrand so it would be super popular at a casual level, thoracle on the other hand I’ve never seen casually because casual players either don’t know abt it, don’t know enough abt it to make it good, or aren’t attracted to it cuz it isn’t flashy, pretty much they ban the big cool cards cuz casual players play them a lot more than small repressive cards

[@Willow_Wisp279]

I feel it’s exactly this. The primary purpose of the ban list is to provide help for the cards that end up almost accidentally creating bad experiences at the table or make all your games feel the same. Cards that are obviously powerful or create experiences you’d expect to be unpleasant are a lot more self regulated in decks, but these ones are going to reduce the enjoyment of more games without the intent of necessarily doing so when you add it to the deck.

[@bencheevers6693]

I'm so freaking stoked whenever these come outs and I look at the timecode and I get really happy

[@JoboTheBestEU]

She Tunnel on my Weasel until I Mesa Falcon. ...What?

[@lol1013]

peak writting

[@muffinhydra]

@Rarran one of the biggest issues with the commander banlist and the Commander Rules Committee is that too much is offloaded to rule 0. Rule 0: make up your own shit. The commander banlist isnt supposed to be the be all end all of banlists, rather it's supposed to be a template and example for each play group to make their own banlist.

[@kwagmeijer26]

A large part of why things are not banned that look like they should be are just because they are cards that are easy for people to self regulate out. Thassa's Oracle combos naturally regulate out, other cards (like Golos, or paradox engine) players have shown to not have the same restraint for, so banning was used to help steer the casual players from, perhaps unknowingly, created OP or unfun game states.

[@biggie_kellogs7919]

idk this argument feels weak to me. Either have a consistent ban list or if you are relying on self-regulation then dont have a ban list

[@kwagmeijer26]

@@biggie_kellogs7919 You may disagree with the reasoning, but it is a lot more consistent than this video makes it out to be, and that is the only real point I'm trying to get across.

[@TheNotshauna]

@@biggie_kellogs7919 Self regulation sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, if they had a ban list that included all the problematic cards it would be too large to be effective. A commander ban list that removes degenerate cards that no one really plays would be more than a hundred cards, making it utterly incomprehensible.

[@davidgzmn12345]

@@biggie_kellogs7919it makes sense honestly. There are cards that people see and go “oh, I’m only running this in a cEDH pod” and they avoid putting them in a regular deck where some of the banned ones are cards that don’t feel like that, people will jam them in every deck.

[@coruscanta]

I will never get tired of seeing Rarran’s reaction to seeing the card before it’s even up on screen 😂