Explaining Why Steve Needs to Be Banned

[@adamquenano8563]

What a timeline we live in, where MineCraft Steve is breaking Smash

[@dogyX3]

What a time to be alive

[@eanderson9599]

If you told me 3 years ago that steve from minecraft would come to smash and be unfathomably broken, I would’ve dropkicked you

[@iswiftyfox8997]

I still love that Steve is in smash and thinks he def deserves it but he’s just such a giant headache I kinda wish he got a complete rework and i might main him depending on his playstyle

[@ashfallen1]

@@eanderson9599 yeah bc 3 years ago nobody would’ve known if Steve was in smash 💀

[@Matanumi]

You know when I heard all those bullshit minecraft in smash rumors I expected a level and that was about it. I couldn't imagine a character properly working in this game. Well years later we got the character in the level. The level is one of the most unique and of course the character doesn't work -

[@philclip23]

I don't usually advocate for banning a character, but I am at a loss for how to defend this. There are some people downplaying this tech and saying that it will never be relevant in a real game. I think that, at this point, we should all know better than to underestimate people who play Steve. They'll master it soon, mark my words.

[@Kjernekar]

I also doesn't help that it's on the character that's ALLREADY considered the best in the game without this "tech".

[@camronh14]

yeah

[@ChouRaiyuki]

Remember in Smash 4 Peach had an infinite that wasn't considered practical by most but then Umeki pulled it off on stream and it ended up getting (mostly) patched out after. By comparison this is definitely doable by a lot more than one person so the argument that it could be widespread and relevant is more than realistic.

[@alexpotts6520]

​@@ChouRaiyuki Esam learnt this tech in 10 minutes. It is trivial for top players.

[@curiosityunbound5460]

I'm a Steve defender. I think I am in the rare spot of actually being able to enjoy top level Steve play, in particular Acola. That being said, this tech is clearly over the line. I puts such an unreasonable burden on the opposing player, and it's not even that difficult to do. If a tech ban was possible that's what I'd prefer but I don't think it is so we should just nip this in the bud before it gets out of hand. If later down the line it becomes more manageable, the community can always come back to it and re-evaluate his banning.

[@Darksilver740]

Another point to add is that Steve was already S+ Tier, THEN they found a glitch that makes him even more unstoppable. It would be different if Ganon or Little Mac had this glitch

[@huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhn]

I think little mac has it in his smashes (just kidding)

[@vitaming582]

"But they never banned Meta Knight or Bayo." And it was a mistake to not ban them. There's no reason we have to repeat those mistakes.

[@陳嘉宇-y4q]

Who played Brawl and Sm4sh competitively now ? Wonder why ?

[@nuke_raider]

I don’t think MK was that bad comparatively. At least he was fun to watch and did not “cheese” per say. Bayo actively killed smash 4.

[@ArcaneTricks]

MK was over represented but if you look at most major top 8s, he was not there that much. MK did not have chain grabs or infinites, MK was like Fox in melee. He just had very VERY good frame data and hitboxes.

[@humouringg]

Probably never banned her cuz Bayo could never get top spot over zero

[@ShinyMew76]

Meta Knight was overpowered but he also was the face of Brawl. Just like Fox was the face of melee. Granted, Meta Knight is the most overpowered character in the history of the series, but he was the face of his game. Bayo on the other hand…

[@victorpena8356]

everyone during smash 4: "just sdi" "skill problems" "dont get hit" "cloud is broken too" "it's too late for the ban" "shes very punishable when she lands" everyone now: "yeah she was super broken lmao" "bayo killed smash 4" "how did they not ever ban her?" Don't let history repeat itself, we've already been through this.

[@Gigakoopz]

Too many people doesn't learn from history. I've kept warning them about the past but they act dissmissive af because they are too egotistical to admit that their fav game has a massive flaw (and character).

[@whyareyouviewingthis]

smash fans (and nintendo fans by proxy) are notorious for being indecisive. support only comes after the death of what they kill. almost as if they didn't know of what they had until it was gone.

[@dianamunoz4296]

Meta Knight was worse than Bayo, just look at his tourney stats, his frame advantage, high mobility, insane recovery, and glitches

[@Avaitor_YT]

​@@GigakoopzYou're too egotistical that you want to ban a character before we even have time to prove you wrong. Now let's ban Pyra/Mythra so you anime girl fanboys have no chance.

[@Avaitor_YT]

Nobody argued against her ban. It was just too late. And stop comparing Steve to Bayo.

[@mrjohnful]

This is becoming a Bayonetta situation all over again. It is VERY CLEAR steve is hurting the competitive fun of the game and he is way stronger than the other characters, especially with this new tech. People will try to not ban him only to Ultimate dying because Steve will ruin it.

[@eragon78]

I actually think there is a good chance Steve actually gets banned. He's already been banned in a few places. I think itll be about a month or two before he gets banned, but its pretty likely he will be I think. We're not gonna repeat Bayo in S4. and MK only got away with it because most pros already played MK when they tried to ban him, and he was also one of the most fun characters in the game. The top pros dont really like steve in this game, and even the ones who play steve used to play other characters before because steve is only a DLC char. Hell, not even all the steve mains like him, I know Onin has semi-seriously argued that steve should be banned for a while now for example.

[@Gigakoopz]

@@eragon78 It wasn't only because of that. There were other factors too.

[@unidentified4122]

I was all for not banning steve and just leanring the match up, but with P/MLG being a tech and having situations wheres it difficult to tell if it's just SDI or the opponents using banned tech (banned tech which isnt even difficult) I think it's better to just ban the character until we figure something out

[@shoutenry]

importantly, it's pretty easy to MLG by accident. There are tons of situations where you want to be pressing the B button out of an aerial anyways. It's not just hard to police, it makes the character hard to use legally.

[@coldtea7]

Before this he was pretty strong, but I didn't think ban worthy. I think this just ruins it and honestly I think it makes Steve feels even less of a Smash Character. This breaks fundamental rules I think Smash has. It's just not okay

[@camronh14]

truth

[@pilkmaster]

same

[@Frostbyte115]

@@shoutenry Actually you can't accidentally do this, you have to specifically hit block out of hitstun. The issue is that the sign that they are using it doesn't show during animations at times so it can't be seen as easily. BUT that part right there is why it's going to be difficult to ban the tech because... You have to rewatch the entire match...

[@martinusmaas31]

I agree. Kill confirms that should work on everyone are now literally impossible to execute on Steve if he can cancel his hitstun at any moment. Imagine a game 5 situation where Steve gets spiked off stage but he cancels the spike and minecarts/down-airs or spikes his opponent instead. Steve already was playing another game than the rest of the cast but this is literally broken in all possible ways.

[@陳嘉宇-y4q]

Isn't the tech only be used when Steve is at 0-1%

[@chordalharmony]

@@陳嘉宇-y4q It’s move dependent. It works up to 25 on Clouds back air, and always works on multi hit aerials. It also has a survivability application. Steve can survive Charge Shot at 186 with this tech.

[@ericy1817]

@@陳嘉宇-y4q It's any attack that doesn't send into tumble. For a lot of moves that's on earlier percents, but for some moves like multihits it can work on a lot more because you can do it after the first few hits.

[@MicRouSn7]

​@@陳嘉宇-y4qyou can see it being used at the end of a peach combo at 2:25. He's at 60+ when this happens.

[@juhadexcelsior]

@@陳嘉宇-y4q no, it works on any attack that doesn't send into tumble

[@adamquenano8563]

If Larry complains, then you all have to listen to him.

[@crismarcelo9838]

100%

[@pjs232]

No, we absolutely don't and everyone is fully entitled to their own opinion. That said, I do happen to agree with him on this one, but it is important people think about their own answer rather than playing "parrot the content creator".

[@sdzxpa]

🦜 so true

[@meanyomama]

@@pjs232 relax

[@AndresAndr95]

@@pjs232 if you ever watched competitive smash you would know who Larry is so don’t try and write him off as a content creator he knows exactly what’s he’s talking about you sound ignorant.

[@Tarkduckleduck]

I mean Steve was already a big burden for watchers which can kill game interest, but now he literally punishes you from landing attacks? Yeah. I am sorry but I have to agree with Larry. There is no character in the story of smash or any fighting game that actively punishes you from succesfully landing safe attacks without previous set up. This is beyond unhealthy for the future of ultimate

[@Segel1230]

​@@Sh1v3rIZAE "without previous setup" all of those are input moves that have lag and are punishable. The only real one I can think of is shulk with shield art hitting you after a multi jab or something similar.

[@Aaron-kr5vg]

@@Sh1v3rIZAE you can’t use those in hitstun meaning they can’t tank multihits or true combos whereas Steve can

[@MasterHandSpazz]

Yoshi in melee He has the natural attribute of Doing so at the cost of a jump imput

[@Claudia-km9lo]

@@MasterHandSpazz that still requires setup as you need to be preemptive with your double jump armor, as well, double jump armor is not perfect, it struggles heavily against moves like fox and puff's drill and can be broken in later %s also just, melee yoshi isn't steve, MLG is like if you gave melee fox infinite double jump armor that never breaks and doesn't struggle against multi-hits

[@ricardoludwig4787]

Shulk shield monado is the only example and honestly it is that dumb

[@dennisd.4726]

I wonder how many times this has happened in bracket and we didn't notice and just wrote it off as Steve jank. The inputs for this tech are super easy and forgiving

[@themalaphage673]

Time to go back and watch some pro Steve sets lol

[@camronh14]

truth

[@silverpotato4272]

not super easy, but definitely forgiving

[@OseiTheWarriors]

​@@silverpotato4272 low risk high reward

[@silverpotato4272]

@@OseiTheWarriors yea

[@StarLightShadows]

I saw the thumbnail for this and I was like, "wat? Wtf? Why and how would you ban Steve? He's the protagonist of the game!" Than I remembered Smash exists and has Steve in it. lol

[@ados1280]

Finally, an influential player being a voice a reason. I'm not entirely against the idea of "just wait and see" but at the same time, you can only wait so long before it's too late for a ban. It happened with Meta Knight, it sorta happened with Bayonetta. Let's actually pay attention to the red flags and just make the right decision this time.

[@willycheez7218]

Wdym "sorta", Bayo complete killed Sm4sh

[@ados1280]

@@willycheez7218 Well, I say it "sorta" was too late for a ban because, we knew Ultimate or at least "a new smash game" was around the corner at the time. So no one cared. If Ultimate never came out, a Bayo ban very likely would have happened. Because yes, at the time she was very much killing the game.

[@eragon78]

@@ados1280 Yea, this is something a lot of people have to remember. A bayo ban was already a hot topic, and then Ult was announced and everyone stopped caring. If ult was delayed like 2 years, bayo was almost definitely getting banned.

[@Matanumi]

Smash 4 was different- the game was on a struggling system and on its way out. We live with ultimate for a long time

[@thebananamelon5065]

I remember the talks of banning Kazuya. But it didn’t happen because although his advantage state and neutral is some of the best in the game, he has a terrible disadvantage state. And he had to be in the ground to execute his best moves. Steve on the other hand, can do his best move anywhere, have a good advantage state, but also *can now completely negate his disadvantage state.* I really hope they fix this with a patch or something. I don’t wanna see Steve getting outright banned

[@sirtimothy92]

I support this. Nintendo should do another patch to balance and fix all the messes.

[@themalaphage673]

They really should consider doing something about this. Ending support for the game during a pandemic where nobody could play some newly released DLC characters properly against each other was just a bad idea. This was bound to happen with one of the DLCs.

[@sirtimothy92]

@@themalaphage673 to be completely honest, I really don't want to ban anyone. But with the current state where Nintendo stopped supporting the game, banning is justifiable. Esam is currently talking about banning the tech in similar case of wobbling in Melee.

[@camronh14]

understandable

[@neog8029]

Nintendo couldn't get multihits right in all this time. I have no faith in them to accurately patch something with any level of nuance.

[@stephkm3655]

Hope they can nerf Aegis and rework Kazuya aswell

[@flexyfalcon]

Honestly if Steve could be patched still then this wouldn't be a problem, but since there's no more updates really to fix stuff like this, this is just going to be abused by people in tournaments. So yeah, probably is a good idea to just have him thought about more about being banned because even if someone doesn't purposely use/abuse this bug, it's very very likely it'll happen once or more throughout a match. Especially since it's not even something random like Z axis stuff, just something that can be done so by any Steve player to get out of any multi hit moves or to do the hitstun cancel. Though maybe should see how much this can actually be abused in more contained environments before any big actions are taken.

[@yolochip4889]

I mean, patch updates to fix broken tech like this are possible. There just won't be anymore actual balance changes.

[@Frostbyte115]

They could still do one to fix this since they did at one point finish patching and surprised us with a nerf to sm4sh bayo afterwards to make it easier to SDI which did help b ut didn't solve the issue but you get the point. This could get patched as it's more an oversight and less like a happy accident.

[@YGK-tu8cy]

I've been a defender of Steve since day 1. But this is inexcusable. This literally breaks the game. Combos are an essential aspect of fighting games; characters that can IGNORE combos should not be allowed in the competitive scene.

[@larry_fisher01]

Shulk mains rn: 👀😳🏃

[@echospace7347]

@@larry_fisher01shulk doesn’t have a zero to death much less 20+ versions of them

[@TheOnlyGBeast]

steve's base kit already breaks the game lol this just shatters it in to a trillion pieces

[@fullm3tal90]

What did you do when vs yoshi or shulks

[@eragon78]

@@echospace7347 well, he can 0-death you pretty easily, but its just not true combos yea.

[@mastermewtwo5503]

It is a bit silly and ironic how Steve's history came about. Originally, people mainly joked about "Hey, what if Minecraft Steve was in Smash?". Eventually, he's the 2nd character in Fighter Pass 2 much to Mario's shock in the trailer among the community. Think he even broke Twitter. In order to place the popular character into the game, every stage was redesigned to have the grid-like structure where Steve can place his blocks... Maybe a year ago, people started getting really good and realizing the fact Steve can hide behind blocks and do all these things with TNT and anvil and whatever (playing off how Minecraft itself is a game built off creativity), which led to concerns and a top 5 tier placement and arguably 1st place... And now, over a year after Sora and the last patch was released, turned out all along Steve was able to just deny combos. He went from a meme choice like maybe Phoenix Wright, to "Oh my god he's in", to unreasonably good and frustrating to play against, to now outright banned in tournament play.

[@thomaslayman9487]

I think people don't really understand the implications of the tech. it's really not a frame 1 option, it's MID-ATTACK. steve is not at a frame disadvantage once he is hit, the one who hit him is always negative because of the end lag of their very own move. the whole reason shulk's shield art was so controversial in early ultimate is because it's not a counter or whatever where the shulk needs to be actable, but *during hitstun*. and steve can do it pretty much whenever, not just with an ability with a cooldown, and shield art has been nerfed since then anyway so he actually does undergo some hitstun.

[@eragon78]

well, the limit for Steve's usage is that it HAS to be a move that doesnt send into tumble. He cant use it in tumble. But the real issue is that Steve was already a top 3 character before this, and THEN getting a super broken option in disadvantage on top of that really tips the scale. Especially since Steve already has one of the best advantage states in the game, so him being able to sometimes turn around him getting hit into him getting a combo because you hit him is a huge deal.

[@Red_PlaysYT]

Also shulk using arts on hitstun is intentional. It’s in the tips section of the game. Steve’s phantom block to cancel hitstun is definitely a bug. Nintendo may patch it since they said they will patch bugs should they arise, and this is pretty impactful to the game.

[@bakersmall8687]

a steve ban is ridiculous until we start seeing tourney distribution like we saw with bayo/meta knight

[@huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhn]

some might say "we gonna fuck over the people who invested time into learning and mastering the chracter." Which is very unhealthy for a competitive fighting game. Better to ban him early now that we know this busted technique than to wait even longer and fuck over more people in a year or two.

[@Avaitor_YT]

​@@huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhn That's totally backwards. Shouldn't we wait for counter play? Especially now that we KNOW it exist and has been developed?

[@shaydonwoolstenhulme4436]

I agree. Nail in the coffin scenario. Its tech that only Steve can use that invalidates so so many things. "hard to use" is not a valid argument either as there are many frame perfect things that players get exceedingly consistent at pulling off.

[@eragon78]

Its not even hard to use. You can buffer it. You can get it by just mashing B in hitstun. Its only hard to get consistently every time. But its not hard to get sometimes. Even if you only get it like 1/5 times you go for it, thats still insanely broken. And the other 4/5 times dont even matter cuz you're just getting combod like you were supposed to normally.

[@squidwardishusbando7217]

This is bayonetta all over again, always thought they should nerf steve as he is extremely hard to go up against. Never knew he would be banned but I think it's for the best until we figure something out.

[@The_Gabe]

I always joked about how me and my friend should just tech someone’s spike, guess it’s not that much of a joke anymore

[@huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhn]

"just like... dont fly away bro"

[@Im0nJupiter]

I feel like it takes a lot to get Larry to complain, which should be indicative of how severely broken the char is. This is becoming a consensus amongst most (non-Steve) players

[@andrebaxter4023]

I was against him being banned previously, but with this new tech, yup, he's gotta go. Ban.

[@Avaitor_YT]

Yes, NEW tech. It's been used like once.

[@gameboyn64]

Steve is kind of a microcosm of why Sakurai should have continued support for ultimate for more than a month and a half after sora was released.

[@huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhn]

It did feel a bit cut short to be honest

[@eguy8387]

Well argued! I think this exploit is obviously something Steve wasn’t designed to do. It not as if he has draw backs or limits to this ability, like Shulk’s shield art. Very sadly I think there 0% chance Nintendo does a patch for it. The company just doesn’t care about the competitive community enough.

[@kyx5631]

They literally put out a patch for Smash 4 to patch Bayo and Bayo only. Is that "not caring"?

[@Riley-u8m]

​​@@kyx5631 it didn't change the fact that she was obscenely broken. Just made her not as obscenely broken.

[@kyx5631]

@@Riley-u8m What does your reply have to do with the topic at hand? OP argued that Nintendo does not care about the competetive scene; yet they did, with a patch that addressed competetive issues. They were not perfect with it, but they did something. So they cared.

[@Riley-u8m]

@@kyx5631 It's pretty relevant to mention that while they patched Bayonetta, it didn't really do much. Sure, they put out a patch, it certainly made her a little less o.p, but it didn't fix anything, she was still super broken and killed off of 1 hit from anywhere on the stage. They cared enough to put out a patch sure, but they didn't actually care enough to follow up when that wasn't enough.

[@metroraddy]

@@kyx5631 nintendo is well known for not giving a damn about the smash community lol patches are the least they could do

[@elmo3766]

When Larry Lurrks, people watch When Tweek Talks, people listen

[@QaptainSlander]

Steve: *Gets Hit* Also Steve: *Hit's you while you're hitting him*

[@binko6046]

This felt like a Lorax in the tree stump moment

[@ammon260]

For MK vs Steve comparison: The roster in this game is way larger, with many being viable choices. So the likelihood of multiple people settling on the same characters will be strictly lower just from numbers alone.

[@Spartakill198]

That's not necessarily true. Yes most characters are viable in some way, but when you're a pro player who is playing for a lot of money, you play the character who will give you the best odds of winning. Now in a game with healthy balance, you're absolutely right. But if a character (Steve in this case) gives you such an advantage that no matter how good you are with another character, a Steve player will always beat you, your only option is to also play Steve

[@sharifbrown3567]

​@@Spartakill198 Steve has losing matchups dude.

[@Spartakill198]

@sharifbrown3567 Did you just not watch the video? He is losing matches right now, yes. Obviously. But if this tech becomes widespread, and legal, he won't be. That's the entire point of this video.

[@themalaphage673]

@@sharifbrown3567 It's very clear that this tech just means "Steve can't be knocked back anymore" once it's mastered. That means even his losing matchups won't be able to take stocks. Like, cool, you hit a meteor smash, but Steve didn't go anywhere and grabbed the ledge. It is just too busted.

[@albertshen1904]

@@sharifbrown3567 Well maybe not anymore. I think this tech makes Steve beat many crucial matchups he originally lost or went even, eg. Byleth, Fox, Mario, Pikachu, Aegis and much more.

[@arti7005]

I lost a scholarship because of this stupid character. Ever since then I haven't touched smash and never will until they ban steve from competitive play or nerf him.

[@irra8994]

While I do not think Steve is inherently broken, I do think the way the tech functions breaks the game, so I would definitely agree to ban the character if this is never patched out.

[@huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhn]

it gives me brawl tripping vibes, where you get punished for just playing the game correctly

[@thanatos2684]

The difference between MK/Bayo and Steve is that while they were massively over-tuned, that’s where their advantage ended. They otherwise more or less functioned on the same set of fundamental rules that everyone else did, they just had overpowered tools at their disposal. Steve has abilities that outright ignore mechanics that every other character has to abide by on top of being over-tuned. It was bad enough that the guy can make obstacles and platforms in a platform fighter, but now he can ignore hitstun too? I’m normally not one for banning characters but he gotta go 😭

[@huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhn]

I used to be on the "whatever we dont need to ban steve, just adapt" train, but this is something else. I think in a game where getting hit sends you flying we shouldn't allow a character that can just ignore it.

[@cubaisdeath]

while I don't play ultimate competitively in any sense, I can't speak on this issue personally so take this with a grain of salt. I was someone who was adamantly against the banning of metaknight in brawl, even though the entire meta of that game competitively revolved around the character, and how to beat him. Just casually watching steve, and the growth and use of this tech is definitely concerning, and I'm not entirely sure its ban worthy, but at the same time it absolutely DOES destroy the flow of the game, and there hasn't exactly been much counterplay developed yet. With that being said, I'm not entirely sure how to even implement any counterplay. The fact that the tech can even be used "on accident" alone makes the tech itself not enforceable for a ban, and like Larry said you'd have to watch EVERY match which just isn't close to feasible. This whole situation needs to be looked at very carefully before there is any decision being made, which sucks because the longer its drawn out the worse it gets in either direction. It reminds me of the great wobbling debate in melee, and that has been banned and unbanned more times than I want to count, and we don't need another repeat of that situation.

[@VideoCentral-bh9tf]

Oh yeh, Steve definitely needs a ban right away. I don't think random twitter people understand how broken canceling all hitstun is. Like for reference, imagine every time you've gotten in on you're opponent and it led to a large combo or a stock. I bet for most people, that's the main way they win. Like imagine in smash 6, Sakurai released a new character and said his gimmick was being able to cancel hitstun and knock back. Imagine how fast that character would get banned. Not only that, but who knows, this isn't the end. We've found so much for Steve, and we may find more. Like what if Steve finds a way to do more broken stuff. Idk, but if all of the stuff that's come out about Steve isn't enough to ban him, that's a deeper community issue that needs to get fixed for the future.

[@Jujan04]

I feel like the reason Steve isn't as dominant as in every other smash game isn't because he's worse, it's because everyone else is better. Ultimate Aegis is probably better than half of all Smash characters in history. I still don't think he's as good as Brawl Meta Knight, he's definitely better than Sm4sh Bayo at this point.

[@anoriginalname5142]

You're sadly probably right. People have been debating about a Steve ban from a long time. But as time goes on, the character becomes more and more broken. It's honestly not even impossible that he ends up better than smash Bayo at some point. And as you explained, there's no really good way of banning the tech. And what if we needed to ban 7 techs next year? That'd be way too complicated

[@Jujan04]

In my opinion, we should let this play out. Who knows? Some simple counterplay could be discovered in the near future. I say give it a chance, and if it breaks the game, then we ban it.

[@WildYGO]

With my experience in the yugioh community, if there’s a card that is as controversial as Steve, it would’ve been banned a long time ago. Sure the people who play it will be pissed but literally everyone else will be happy

[@NathanRW]

Man banning a character is just such a bummer. I personally do really hate Steve and pretty much skip every match with him (except for grand finals), but I really hope they're able to figure out a way to let him stay without being bad for the community. I know a lot of people love him, and it's cool to see new players getting passionate about learning his kit, I wouldn't want to discourage the next generation of pros. Here's hoping some kind of technique gets discovered by other characters that can counter his exploit.

[@divinity1079]

For now he has to be banned, but we can hope he will get patched. They did say that there were no more balance changes, unless something extremely broken comes out

[@eragon78]

@@divinity1079 Well, banning steve could send a message to the devs. I doubt theyll pay attention if people are just complaining, but if he gets banned from all competitive scenes, then they may actually tune in and pay attention.

[@BirdManJones]

There's no counter to negating hitstun lol

[@peleusthedragon5504]

Yeah. I was on the “no ban Steven” train for the longest time because banning a character literally opens a huge can of worms, but im not sure if the new tech is excusable and enforceable. This is 100% ban worthy. The problem then becomes how will top Steve mains like Ddee and Acola react to this?

[@izzymosley1970]

I kind of want Steve not to be banned just so we can see the super smash Brothers ultimate version of 20XX and witness the chaos of the Steve only meta at least for a little bit.

[@Halfcraft4224]

The problem is it’s hard to monitor in some settings. In person I think it’s easier bc I think the social pressure of being ostracized for using the exploit. But in online tournaments it’s almost impossible to monitor, but not only that there’s nothing from entering free tournament, exploiting the tech, possibly getting banned and if they do then make new accounts. So it’s possible to ban just the tech in person, but online the character as a whole might need to be banned.

[@OseiTheWarriors]

Doubtful on the social pressure bit. If a player wants to win they'll use every trick in the book.

[@mah_eyes]

It just gets worse with how much more mechanics get discovered. Either we pull the plug now or we will witness a char that has an answer to everything and thats not fun for the players or the viewers.

[@nothingherezero7182]

It because u guys said he's mid tier

[@ThatSneakman]

Steve was already teetering on unhealthy for the game but this would outright kill it.

[@Avaitor_YT]

Congratulations! You killed it by banning him.

[@braedenq4387]

Great video Larry. Banning just the technique has so many flaws to it I couldn’t believe how many people were seriously arguing it. And your points about the issues with the wait and see were on the money.

[@陳嘉宇-y4q]

This Summit will be important to the matter, all eyes are on Acola

[@Fissiccisst1]

I personally can't wait to see what the Steve apologizers come up with the justify a single character having a massive exploit that shatters a core mechanic of the game on a character that was already better than most characters at everything.

[@bestaround3323]

You can get around it if you are good at the game. I mean just play around it lol. Clearly you just hate that Minecraft got in. Something like that?

[@Fissiccisst1]

@@bestaround3323 Honestly I couldn't care less that its steve from Minecraft. My issues are with his kit, not his character. it could've been Lego, Roblox, hell 2d Mario Maker Mario, and my issues would be the same. If anything I think there's too many spots taken up by Fire Emblem. Or compress daisy into a skin for peach, same with Dark Samus(though DS animations are slightly different hitboxes) Instead we could've had awesome and unique entries like Geno from Mario RPG, a Monster Hunter, Viewtiful Joe, Megaman X, Zero, Roll, A Metroid, Lu Bu from Dynasty Warriors, Bonne Tronne, Dr. Robotnik, Tifa... ...OH ALSO WALUIGI waaaaaaaaaaaagh (poor Waluigi mans needs to invite himself to smash)

[@bestaround3323]

@James MacDonald Cope and Seethe Yeah but you're right, the dude breaks a lot of things

[@danielbakergill]

"results don't agree with you" "Yeah but top players don't like him, so ban him" What losers.

[@whyareyouviewingthis]

>Steve player like clockwork lmao

[@professortree9387]

Steve from Devil May Craft brought to you by Raid Shadow Mines is too strong indeed

[@Swaggo_]

As rough as it sounds, banning him would probably be best. He is a very busted character when it comes to a platform game like Smash. The blocks allow him to use smash attacks in the air, all sorts of crazy combos, and allows him to get his double jump back. An optimized Steve with this tech would be near unstoppable to most of the cast. His one downside is he has to mine and craft, what you have to press B every now and again?

[@playboybrendo103]

Banned ?! No this character Thanos snapped from existence

[@Wienerdog5]

I bought steve the 13th last month. The character solved my character crisis, and I entered brackets with the character, I even got to fight vendetta ffs. But then this shit happens because some no life posted this absolute bullshit on Twitter. I hate people.

[@lavender188]

the frustration is warranted. but understand that someone was going to find out about it eventually. you are just incredibly unlucky 😕

[@Wienerdog5]

@@lavender188 yeah thats facts, but i feel worse for people who have put way more than i have into steve.

[@ERROR-CitationNeeded]

Sakurai, master of game design, was the last hope. But when the world needed him most, he vanished...

[@jaserror]

Aligned with this. If this is only making Steve top tier/best char in the game, then it's not worth banning Steve. BUT this makes any game against Steve a totally different ruleset since combos, set kills, and multihits no longer work 100% against only 1 character. At that point, the character is broken in a bad way since it disrupts all gameplay involving said character. After all, this is smash not Killer Instinct where every char has a way to break out of combos.

[@Cornhog1552]

This is why I say we should petition nintendo to patch the game one last time. Saying "they're not gonna do it regardless" is not an excuse to not try.

[@rebrapco]

The problem is this is what they wanted to happen Smash 4 bayo was obviously nintendo trying to kill sm4sh's competitive scene Fighter pass 2 having some of the best characters in the game isn't a coincidence, they're making sure the competitive scene dies just in case they plan to make a new smash in the distant future, they don't want a repeat of smash melee

[@Cornhog1552]

@rebrapco1016 It's pretty conspiratorial but even then that's y let's make a petition.

[@wonder1034]

Yk the dev team has already been dissolved right?

[@assdong7771]

@@rebrapco Why would they even want that? Surely they're smart enough to realize that if they intentionally cause the competitive scene to die, then they'll lose easily 45-60% of their playerbase, meaning less sales and the franchise would be ruined forever.

[@ngotemna8875]

​@@rebrapco "repeat of smash melee" Having a dedicated fan base for a 20year old game is bad?

[@Dres2000]

I still don’t understand the paranoia behind this character being banned. But what do I know, I’m not into the competitive scene and this makes me feel bad for Steve players.

[@justalex3880]

After this tech I’m all for a Steve ban now! I just hope Steve players don’t get anymore hate!

[@DivertedKitten]

I quit smash over a year ago with 4000 hours on the game. I felt that when you play against high level opponents most of the characters in the game are unbelievably annoying to play against, especially the newer dlc characters like Steve, min min, and sora. It seemed like there were only a handful of fun matchups in a game with almost 90 characters and playing the game was more annoying than it was fun

[@huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhn]

What if I told you that getting annoyed is actually more of a choice than you think?

[@adrianvege]

The single closest thing I can think of to this is that in guilty gear +R Baiken has incredibly broken guard breaks that allow her to counter enemy attacks during blockstun/strings. It is INCREDBLELY broken! Not being able to do blockstrings in ANY fighting game (ESPECIALLY GUITY GEAR GAMES) is a MASSIVE disadvantage. No characters from this game have ever been banned besides EX variations, probably because even tho she had this incredibly broken (and intentionally so!) mechanic there is another character who sets full screen invisible traps and is actually impossible to get in on (testament). Now that was just blockstun/strings, but getting punished for getting a CLEAN hit? This is completely gamebreaking to any fighting game. Risk reward is now non existent, you will NEVER have a true advantage state against Steve. Steve will go down as one of the most broken characters ever in fighting game history JUST because this is consistent and possible. On top of that, he can get guranteed full 0-death punish reversals in the right situation after cancelling hitstun. I feel very sorry for the ultimate community and the Steve players who character is now to overpower to be allowed to compete. You actually cannot overstate how broken this truly is, downplaying this as anything besides gamebreaking is either complete ignorance or desperation to keep the character alive. I hope for the games sake that this all gets back to Sakurai somehow and he has an emergency patch. No dev would want something like this in a fighting game of any kind.

[@huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhn]

I enjoyed this excourse into other fighting games, always nice to know how those handle similar situations

[@TheAuraRealm]

Steve has an amazing kit and breaks a vast amount of rules which is already too much but being able to cancel hitstun by simply doing a few actions before that hitstuns occurs is too much and it's so simple to execute. I really don't see how majors or locals won't ban him because of this. As much as I have Steve, I also hate seeing characters banned in current smash games. Each character should have a fair chance to thrive in a meta so I hope there's a surprise hotfix for it.

[@sczoot6285]

Larry spitting facts, especially about the danger of setting the precedent right now and having the fight later

[@G-XTREME]

@larrylurr the part at 2:22 was Peach Bomber having that weird thing that falcon side b also has where it activates but doesn't hit, not the Steve tech

[@Legendary_Honey]

I love you Larry. Thanks for showing all the angles and making a fair argument from a true veteran's perspective.

[@intimorin360]

Damn this comment section is fulled of Steve mains this is hilarious and sad at the same time....

[@jankounchained4211]

I’ve never heard Larry flat out say ban a character before, this some real shiz

[@MrRoombastic]

yeah, theres no excuse for being able to just cancel hitstun. It makes you unpunishable

[@nutmatical1042]

Steve is a physical proof of how AAA Japanese devs barley get rests especially Sakurai Sakurai is probably a billionaire right now he should probably retire making games and teaching newer generations of game dev worldwide on how to make great games (btw he is doing that in his channel go check it out)

[@huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhn]

it's a decent channel

[@whatthebeardoin3160]

If he can just freely escape hitstun to punish combos there's no reason not to ban it. Hopefully an emergency patch removes it so it doesn't have to be a discussion we keep having.

[@johnmoore8627]

Yeah… hitstun cancelling is a bit much to ask for even though I love the character because of how much creativity he allows.

[@clay2889]

Thanks for making a video about this. I learned about steves recent broken mechanics on twitter and was absolutely shocked that he is playable in tournaments at that state

[@elbowjuiceVODs]

I really hope Nintendo steps in at some point, as unlikely as it is. I started smash in early sm4sh and lost interest around COVID. Once Steve started to pick up in the meta I finally got really interested in the scene again. There will always be upsets to make things interesting, but seeing Top 8's be the community vs. Steve was a good storyline. And wondering what people would figure out to beat him or what Steve's new tech this tournament would be was great for viewers.

[@namenamename390]

Back when Steve bans originally made the rounds, I did not agree. Steve was a really strong character, sure, but he wasn't broken. If he truly was, so many people would switch to him and instantly get way stronger results, this happened in other fighting games, and it happened in Smash 4 when Bayo was released. But with MLG, I honestly don't see a reason why players with the intent to win would choose a character other than Steve. That is not a healthy situation for a competitive community, so as much as it annoys me to say this, but a ban is the best solution we have. I really hope that the devs decide to come back to the game just to patch this garbage out. I know it's not gonna happen, but this might be one of the most needed patches in Smash history.

[@vicly7446]

Don't be so humble Larry, you were a top player in Melee too! Really respect your opinion here, more than most other top players out there for sure.

[@catheadcup4744]

Anybody here after Dabuz's robbery super smash con?

[@georgeshaw4017]

Me. I am.

[@afgcinc7206]

Yup

[@Arturox129]

Thank you for explaining the difference between MK and Steve. MK was one of the easiest top tiers to pick up so many had a pocket MK that eventually turned into their main. Also there were only around 10 other viable characters in Brawl compared to Ultimate with almost all 80 being viable and easy to use. Top players preferred using MK over IC and Olimar. While in Ult top players prefer to not use Steve The tournament dominance will never be the same even if Steve is stronger than MK because of all this.

[@spiritualak5147]

Oh my that tech is ridiculous. I stood by Steve in the ban but that’s just ridiculous. But they won’t fix it. If they didn’t fix the problem where someone rage quits the last minute on quick play, preventing the winner from getting gsp. Then I trust they won’t fix this.

[@user-fe2ne7qx9z]

We now live in a timeline where Melee is the most balanced Smash game lmao.

[@naut7845]

The fact that Nintendo both doesn’t officially and fully support the competitive scene AND pulled the plug on developer support are REALLY hurting the scene right now. Smash still feels like a grass roots scene where we have to get everyone from NY to Japan and beyond on the same page in order to ban things. Imagine a world where this kinda shit could get patched or where there’s an official smash banlist/ruleset that’s created and updated by Nintendo themselves… it’s sad to me when even a mobile game like Pokemon Go has developers that attempt to support the competitive scene and makes banlists and such while smash is just left to fend for itself.

[@huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhn]

Yeah sucks that Nintendo is still riding with Steam Trains in this regard

[@goblinreal9164]

3:29 This was my argument for banning steve a long time ago, when something overpowered becomes a normal part of the game it sucks the fun out of everything around it AND competitive players become so used to it that they both either pick it up and then don't wanna play anything else or they put down the game and play something else because they hate the playstyle so you get a ton of pushback from people with bad arguments that are grinding these games out while people that aren't making counter arguments have already left to play something else creating a downward spiral where Bayo vs Bayo, MK vs MK, Steve vs Steve is your grand finals. You can say "It wasn't Steve vs Steve in the top 4 to x major", yeah, because by the time it happens it's already too late.

[@draegore]

Normally, I don't advocate for bans even if a character is OP, but cancelling hitstun is BULLSHIT!! Ban Steve.

[@Dinnermancer]

I wasn't pro ban until this tech was discovered. This is way too much, a super powerful character that can punish or kill you for successfully hitting him because of an exploit/glitch, yeah this character has to go.

[@Mixa_Lv]

The 2 reasons why Steve results aren't dominant don't hold water because Baoynetta was also a hated character and dlc, but she became more common and common. The reasons why people don't play as Steve are elsewhere.

[@superdubdub]

Agree 100%. This is unprecedented and needs to be addressed.

[@splish_2]

i agree. So many competitive games ban characters/any type of shit thats too broken. Pokemon has a ban list for every single format it has. Why is it so different here? Steve is undeniably a broken character that needed a huge nerf and patch. It doesnt matter if his results arent winning every single major, he is literally breaking the game mechanics. Yall cant break history one single time by banning a single character?? meta knight shouldve 100% been banned in Brawl and we have a chance to do the practical thing here and not kill this game

[@DrCorndog1]

Not necessarily arguing against banning Steve, but the argument here comparing top Brawl players to top Ultimate players is a really weak one. All other points are good, though. So I don't think banning him is out of the question.

[@omega_dip_wod]

What is weak about that argument?

[@N12015]

@@omega_dip_wod Because Brawl MK needed to be banned and people hostaged tournaments to not ban him. He's just that overcentralizing.

[@omega_dip_wod]

@@N12015 he never mentions characters he said comparing top brawl PLAYERS to ult PLAYERS. So again I ask how is that a weak argument

[@andyduhh4278]

Good luck banning the character Nintendo wouldn’t let it happen.

[@cephlo4933]

Steve is gonna be that case like Brawl Meta Knight, where some tournaments may ban him or the ones that do allow Steve to be played will have rules against using any game breaking tech. This was the same case for Meta Knight who could stall under the stage or use his down b to disappear infinitely.

[@TwelveTables]

Not sure about your locals but for mine the down b glitch was instant set loss for metaknight player while under platform 3 times in a row was a stock or game if they didn't SD right then. Those were very easy to see and punish. How do you ban a tech that practically invisible mid game without save review after each match?

[@huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhn]

@@TwelveTables yeah it' not like the ledge grab rule in brawl where you can just check the counter at the end. Imagine someone would have to sit down and analyze all the steve matches in a tournament for every set where people complained that the technique might have been used. Imagine at some point 20% of players would be picking up Steve, the endless hours of sets that the hardworking TOs would have to analyze... It's a nightmare.

[@tyfuqua1574]

Maybe the developers of the game should just do a quick bug fix. I mean, they surely didnt intend for Steve to be able to do all that right? If they fixed it real quick it would be a non issue

[@ko-yoshi]

I was team “just ban the tech” until this vid. As usual Larry explains/convinces better than most in under 5min. Unfortunately yeah we gotta #bansteve

[@Rahilda]

Banning tech was never a good argument to begin with. It's not feasible.

[@chordalharmony]

@@Rahilda Almost always. People trying to use Wobbling or Infinite dimensional cape don’t get how easy it was for everyone to know what happened. This sometimes looks like random jank the game is known to do from time to time

[@ko-yoshi]

@@Rahilda yeah poorly thought out wishful thinking

[@dialga236]

so im not a high level smash player at all, but its fucking hilarious hes the most OP character in ultimate

[@AbsolutelyAbsurDDD]

I agree with the second half, regarding the hitstun exploit. Hopefully he does get banned for that reason, but imo the whole represntation thing and him being better than Brawl MK, I heavily disagree with that.

[@N12015]

Meta Knight is the only character in the smash series WITH ONLY POSITIVE MATCHUPS. Steve still kinda loses to Cloud even with this technique due to his moves having relatively high knockback for instance.

[@jeffrey-is-Rook]

I never thought about it before but Steve dittos are boring to watch. It's like watching a Sonic match in slow-motion. Total snooze-fest.

[@phenom4630]

Larry being the voice of reason

[@noitsjustcody]

I don't remember who it was, but someone was saying they thought Steve would be low tier right after launch based on his range and difficult follow ups. My how times have changed lol

[@S1neWav_]

honestly i agree. im super anti character ban but your logic is sound. it's just too much

[@TheAlex3839]

I started to listen to you talk, and then i spaced out and started imagining stuff in my head on something i did in the past and how could this could of done better or how i could of said things differently. Why did i do that?

[@plabcentral630]

I have flipped on this. I was a brawl vet and Steve needs to go, but like in a month. Give it a month and then we will see Steve’s that have never been heard of placing big due to new tech. Then people will be unhappy and they will ban him. RIP acola, quandale, Jake and others.

[@willycheez7218]

Acola is still decent but the rest are done for. Not if they have fundies tho

[@omega_dip_wod]

@@willycheez7218 Who did Acola play before steve and what were their results?

[@willycheez7218]

@@omega_dip_wod People say dominated Ladder with Luigi but I don't think it says much. I would look at his Kazuya personally, but even then it's Kazuya we're talking

[@omega_dip_wod]

@@willycheez7218 Yeah Acola just seems overrated to me like with all Steve mains and you can't find really anything on Acola pre-steve so in my opinion that says a lot

[@iuricunhamurakami8261]

​@@omega_dip_wod Man, acola is not even 17 years old, how would he have results before steve who was released 2 years ago? What 14 year old have big results?

[@IzAwSmash]

You are so close to 100k lets fucking go!!

[@IzAwSmash]

also watch and react to my video about banning steve larry :O

[@spiritualak5147]

Izwa I thought you didn’t even do KZbin anymore. Well bro I appreciate you. Because of you I learned how to play zss samus and falco thanks my guy 💯