Exploring Relationality and Emptiness | Voices with Vervaeke with Guy Sengstock

In this episode of “Voices with Vervaeke,” John Vervaeke and Guy Sengstock engage in a discussion about relationality, grief, and the sacred. Highlighting their upcoming Circling into Dialogos workshop, they delve into practices for realizing our interconnected nature, inspired by philosopher James Filler's views on relationality as the essence of being. The duo explores how grief exposes our lives as interwoven relational worlds, leading to a deeper comprehension of non-substantiality and connection. Their transformative workshop aims to cultivate better relationships with self, others, and ultimate reality, addressing the sacred amidst the meaning crisis and moving beyond adversarial thinking. This relational perspective, both transcendent and intimate, offers insights into a more responsive and holistic way of living. Listeners will gain an enriched understanding of how relational thinking can reshape our approach to life's challenges, opening doors to new meanings and deeper connections.
Guy Sengstock, the founder of the Circling method, is a renowned facilitator and innovator in the field of authentic communication and personal development. His method blends philosophical rigor with a deep understanding of relational dynamics, offering transformative experiences that foster genuine connection and self-awareness.
Glossary of Terms
Relationality: The quality of being relational, emphasizing the importance of relationships in understanding beings and the world.
Heidegger: A German philosopher known for his existential and phenomenological explorations.
Neoplatonism: A philosophical system that posits the existence of an ultimate reality or "One" from which everything emanates.
John Vervaeke
Website: johnvervaeke.com/
KZbin: / @johnvervaeke
Patreon: / johnvervaeke
X: / vervaeke_john
Facebook: / vervaekejohn
Guy Sengstock
Website: circlinginstitute.com/
Email: [e-mail]
Join our new Patreon
/ johnvervaeke
The Vervaeke Foundation - vervaekefoundation.org/
Awaken to Meaning - awakentomeaning.com/
Workshop: Circling & Dialogos: The After Socrates Wisdom Intensive February 10-11, 2024
circlinginstitute.mykajabi.co...
Books, Articles, and Publications
Heidegger, Neoplatonism, and the History of Being: Relation as Ontological Ground - James Filler
www.amazon.com/dp/3031309065
Relationality as the Ground of Being: The One as Pure Relation in Plotinus - Filler, James (2019). International Journal of the Platonic Tradition
brill.com/view/journals/jpt/1...
The Relational Ontology of Anaximander and Heraclitus - Filler, James (2022). Review of Metaphysics
muse.jhu.edu/article/872706
Heidegger, Neoplatonism, and the History of Being: Relation as Ontological Ground - Filler, James (2023). Springer Nature Switzerland.
link.springer.com/book/10.100...
Religion and Nothingness - Keiji Nishitani
www.amazon.com/Religion-Nothi...
Supernatural Selection: How Religion Evolved - Matt Rossano www.amazon.com/Supernatural-S...
Indeterminacy and Intelligibility - Brian John Martine www.amazon.com/Indeterminacy-...
Quotes
"There's a sacred dimension to this that is trying to be born right now, because we need to be born beyond the meaning crisis, and the sacred needs to be born." - John Vervaeke [00:45:26]
"That's what grief is. There's a hole in reality because relationality has been lost." - John Vervaeke [00:47:38]
"The ongoing practice involves continually reaching into, and being reached by this process. This relationality that is also an emptiness is so important. It just seems like it's the most important thing." - Guy Sengstock [00:58:10]
Chapters
[00:00:00] - Introduction to Guy Sengstock and the upcoming workshop.
[00:02:00] - Discussing James Filler’s book and relationality.
[00:14:00] - Exploring the significance of grief.
[00:29:00] - The relational nature of being and wisdom.
[00:42:00] - Delving into Zen philosophy and Neoplatonism.
[00:54:00] - The transformative power of grief and loss.
[01:10:00] - Concluding thoughts and reflections on relational ontology.

[@erlinae1]

Can you imagine how this body of work could help transcend DEIB by just embodying this truth. Blessing for the healing you both are bringing to this world❤

[@they365]

I have been watching your work for years - since Awakening … first came out. I just wanted to express heartfelt gratitude for you and your work, John. It has really helped me with my life.

[@O.G.Rose.Michelle.and.Daniel]

This was a wonderful discussion. Guy Sengstock is awesome and a joy to speak with, and I think Dr. Vervaeke’s points on how metaphysical systems of “self-standing substance” tend toward nominalism and self-enclosure are exactly right. The notion that there are “patterns all the way down” was well-articulated, and I think it’s perceptive to note how grief is a revelation that we aren’t self-standing entities, that we indeed exist in relations which are essentially part of us. Thank you both!

[@dianagoddard6456]

John- in the Thich Nhat Hahn community of interbeing there is is song No coming, no going, no after, no before. I hold you close to me I release you to be so free, Because I am in you and you are in me.

[@pj9591]

Thanks to both of you. You have presented, in this video, a beautiful self-realisation of the IAM, IAMTHAT. THAT IAMNESS. The Absolute relationship that IAM demands of all of us. Your transmission in this video announces that you have the distributive consciousness coming from the IAM. A lot of people will be drowned by your transmission. We can now enter the second tier of spiritual intelligence. I can only hope that you will be given the chance to make it available to most or all people, The drums of war are heard, Let hope that we can stop it and move into the being that we have been waiting for. A thousand thanks to both of you. May God bless you. Radicality Love.

[@yeaown8139]

Hey John. I'm a huge fan of your work to say the least. Awakening from the Meaning Crisis has become an important part of my life, and I pay attention to everything you upload - all the conversations you have consistently leave me inspired. Eternally grateful for discovering your work, sincerely. I just wanted to provide some feedback, and this might just be my own idiosyncratic irritability, if so please forgive me and disregard it. But I absolutely hate when - in the depths of a flowing conversation, we are suddenly interrupted by a "sponsored message" - even when it is for the important work you're doing with the Vervaeke Foundation. Constantly we are surrounded by streams of information that serves to fragment the very way we pay attention to the world. We are constantly bombarded with bit-sized snippets of marketing, being put into all the empty spaces they can fit - leaving little room for the main content to *breathe*. And our world is so saturated by this kind of marketing, it's polluting and fragmenting almost everything and it drives me nuts. The converations you have had on this channel have been a haven from this dynamic for me. Because they have been natural, uninterrupted, unedited for "ease-of-consumption", because they have unfolded naturally, the rhythm, the back-and-forth, - the coming and the going - of each conversation have been part of how and why they have been meaningful and significant for me. To put an infomercial in the middle of it pretty severely interrupts this sacred flow. Even if it's just one short message. I understand why you want to let people know about how we can support your work, and I fully support you doing that. But I hope these messages could be put in the beginning of the video so we can experience the full conversations uninterrupted. Again, this might be me overreacting because of my own idiosyncratic irritability regarding ads and marketing. Either way, I'm gonna keep following your work. Thanks.

[@dalibofurnell]

Listening again. I feel this needs to go deeper. There's more here. Much more. This is really great, hardcore, real, and oh so vast and curious and valuable it could be to delve into the exploration of the innerscapes that are hidden within grief and .. yet to be discovered... or glimpsed by a few early travelers willing to journey past the extensions and go deeper in and dig guide paths to venture out in case someone got a bit lost, they can take a route to a more manageable plain, grief is like some kind of lost ark , type of thing. It's hard to try to put words to my imagination. But I can see. Now I wonder whether I'd ever bump into another who shares it. Better to explore together , or with a trustworthy partner , tandem and travail prevails when the marks of the unification and merge of both ends of the iron sharpens iron , forging strengths and weaknesses, a combination that could truly shed a way of light to something ancient to be left behind to be found in awe by the future explorers to encounter what makes them important to the inmeshment of changing and transformative and transitioning life fabrics that by the time most come, there are garments prepared to assist them to journey on

[@ClaytonNyakana]

Indeed, participating in relationality feels like using the #ApophaticWalkingStick 24:50 . I love your work both, thank you for all you are doing 🙏

[@O.G.Rose.Michelle.and.Daniel]

That metaphor of yours is so deeply valuable, my dear friend! Guy and I spoke of it in our last talk and it framed the entire discussion. Thank you so, so, so much for it!

[@aarontaylor5988]

Loved this conversation, it made me go reread Merleau-ponty's The Visible and The Invisible. Allot of these ideas feel at home with what he was getting at with his notion of Chiasm-reversibility.

[@mikareno11]

Wow, enjoyed this chat 😊 Thanks for your time, quality content n upload

[@springgingerla]

The experience of vulnerability because of pure relationality realized through grief is something I experienced, but even in a so profound way that I would liken it to a mystical experience, which you also talk about here. I have struggled to find anyone to have an actual conversation with about this and to figure out how to resurface in ordinary life. Even therapists I tried would rather be bewildered by me trying to lay out why I seemed them out. So, even though this is not that conversation either, I at least could listen to you explore that space. Thank you!

[@moisebenezra]

"There is that in me which comes in, right, comes... uh, you know, into awareness... right... or just, just comes! I don't even want to say comes into awareness. It just comes! as you come... Something is trying to come." - John Vervaeke, 2024

[@Jacob011]

We need a compilation of Guy Sengstock saying: "yeah... yeah" for 10 hours straight.

[@iankclark]

yeah... yeah (stares off into the cosmic awesomeness).

[@opposingshore9322]

This was fantastic thank you. Very interested to read Filler’s book… I was so enthralled when you both arrived at grief and intimacy as the center of the relational. I think that’s what Raoul Vaneigem (whom no one talks about these days!) meant when he said: ‘There are more truths in 24 hours of a man’s life than in all the philosophies.’ Participation in nested relationships is transformative in a way deeper than any language. Would love to hear you dive into the work of Levinas regarding all of this.

[@dalibofurnell]

Hello ❤ interesting timing. Just thought I'd say, before having listened through, That I pray that you have peace and may you be blessed ❤ may God's love saturate you ❤ Thanks for having good intent. I hope you feel a very real rise of gratitude and growth inside of you, that from deep within, you can feel new lights flicker you into bloom 🌱🌻 and may you bloom in grace , let love grow and keep on keeping on , move, live and experience the joy of life, let an anchor of hope help keep you stable as you let your light shine on, being a willing vessel, a channel , a beautifully open and strongly connected presence through which God's goodness, grace and glory can shine through and reach , every fiber, every thing, that you're indwelling , love. Okay, I'll stop typing this now, and give this a listen. ❤

[@Parsons4Geist]

love Guy and OG Roses last conversation ❤

[@O.G.Rose.Michelle.and.Daniel]

Thank you Andrew, I always look forward to speaking with Guy. It's a delight!

[@colorfulbookmark]

I am taking cares of inspirative channel like this, only thanksgiving is not enough I think. Love is good thing and with rationality it is improved empowerment of life, I think it is great thing to heal emptiness of certain lives, I am worried about people who had some reluctance on it even if they are not my close friends. What I learn from philosophy is that we need to be rational not to be merely following rules, to be more deeper dive into the things happened while we do not see. People are basically doing this well and it is chance to learn from them, for free is that we also see love in the creative maneuver. The immersion is good empowerment of human beings can do, lovely dogs can do it too. The relationship I know could be took into place but this is not as easy as doing into reality, it is why I think rescue purpose to learn philosophy.

[@pantherstealth1645]

Thanks John 💪😎 🙏🖖🤟✌️

[@Jacob011]

Great! Another incomprehensible book to read. 😬 I wonder if D. C. Schindler will be invited to reflect in this series.

[@iankclark]

Yeah, I already have Nishitani and others staring me down from the bookshelf.

[@IMissTomPetty]

John, Honestly I have been very immersed in your work recently so I have the advantages and disadvantages of "immersion" as an educational style, I guess, and I can report that the reference to "relationship" over and over again is pounding on me like a thumping headache. It's like talking about the "relationship" between puzzle pieces without talking about the puzzle. It has become a fetish philosophically and psychologically to focus on "relationship" without endeavoring insight, at least in its necessary proportion within that investigation, to what it is that "relationship" is a RESPONSE TO. What is the car accident that left the car SHATTERED and its pieces SCATTERED to necessitate relationship as a fundamental model of life? I grew up in a house full of new age vocabulary, "the one" and "unity" and all manner of mystical, ineffable reference within which the person can enfold themselves like a blanket. It always struck me as a form of masturbation. I have given consideration to these matters in earnest and from my post-theological perspective what we are referring to is nature in fracture, with its properties and powers and potentialities SCATTERED amongst the river of objects that die, motivating the "sacred" act of creation. The fundamental substance, to borrow from your vocabulary in the introduction to this video, is nature AS entity, idea, personality, subject, etc. and THINGS ALIVE are the AGENCY and INSUFFICIENCY of nature in their individual existence, but, IN RELATIONSHIP that which proceeds from their ENTANGLEMENT produces the SUSTAINING FUNCTION of nature. The operation of the internal organ systems of my body capacitate my existence. By analogy, the "relationship" between people capacitates the existence of nature. Honestly, I have enjoyed your work so much, but even more I appreciate your sincerity and thoughtfulness. On the matter of your present direction and the emphasis given to relationship, I suggest, with respect, you are on the precipice of a dark void into which people are encouraged to direct their awe. This is not fundamentally different from other mystical models of reality, or religion, really. What the world needs is an ontological articulation of that void and I don't hear it or see it coming in your work.

[@gunterappoldt3037]

Old Master Eihei Dôgen Kigen wrote an essay, called "Uji" (´Being/Having-Time´). "Time, the familiar stranger" (J.T. Fraser) seems to me the hidden "source" (reified into a half-substantial grid of "spatialized time", as Henri Bergson might have put it), towards which this version of "relationism" - "an old song, a new song" (Richard Wagner, "Meistersinger") - points. - Well, there´s much more one could say about this "matter" (bonmot: "What is mind? No matter! What is matter? Never mind!"). Maybe I´ll write an extra commentary here, "if the time is ripe" (old Buddhist phrase, also re-interpreted by Eihei Dôgen, who - half analytically, half intuitonally/visionary - conluded something like: "Non-duration is Buddha-nature" - but that´s another story).

[@joshuaprivett3552]

I meant to leave these comments when the video was released, but somehow ended up leaving them on a video about dandelions. 34:00 This reminds me of Python, but Python is an object-oriented language. I don’t know if programming languages were built on our framework of reality, or if logical operators are what is fundamental to reality- logic exists in philosophy, in math, and in programming, although each of these forms of logic are somewhat different. In other words, it feels like Classical Logic, and Boolean/Computational Logic are both gesturing at the “really real”. Would love to see a conversation with Vervaeke and a software engineer or network architect to see if they can fit their two world views together, so I can bridge my internal philosophical and computational maps into a more consistent world view. 52:00 I would push back on this. Defining grief as a loss of relation doesn’t seem appropriate. We are constantly updating the maps and forms of things we have in our mind- constantly making these connections and definitions more efficient to reference for use by other functions and definitions. It is not all the time that an update to one of our innate relationships causes grief- sometimes these updates feel as epiphanies, and sometimes they just gradually update over time until they no longer resemble the original relationship. Unless you want to make the claim that we are in a constant state of grief over the loss of previous states of being.

[@eun-jaehwang3061]

Quick question, Mr. Vervaeke. Is the statement, "Existence can't be a = 1, 2, or 3. Existence is what enables the numerical relationships possible." a right understanding of the key insight of Neoplatonism?

[@Jbobbybob]

In emptiness there is the opportunity for possible relationality. Intentionality constrains possibility and orients subjects towards particular modes of relationality. Particular modes of relationality directed towards particular subjects disclose facets of being itself.

[@brisk_gift]

A real synthesis

[@monederofreeman2922]

❤️❤️

[@CalmLisa]

✨Remember who you are✨

[@lisaasvestas251]

Powerful! I have watched it twice. Your words around grief touched me. I shared. :). How do I find out more info on the upcoming intensive? Class schedule?

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks! Please check the show notes and let know of the info you are looking for is not there.

[@alexruder8457]

This was an excellent discussion. I have a follow up question for John and Guy. I have assumed that Neoplatonism posits an aspect of reality--the One--that is infinite, eternal, and changeless (similar to Brahman of Advaita Vedanta). The emptiness described in this video posits that reality is just phenomena, or a constant flux without substance--there is no aspect of reality that is infinite, eternal, or changeless. Do either of you see a tension here?

[@johnvervaeke]

Please read James Filler’s paper on Plotinus and the One. The One is beneath between and beyond the finite and the infinite, the the eternal and the temporal, motion and rest. The relation between always makes both poles intelligible.

[@jonyspinoza3310]

🌞❤️‍🔥

[@dalibofurnell]

Wow so interesting, it's like you're saying the words that I'd use from the palette of my mind, but I don't need to do that right now because I can just be and listen , how superb, more surprising and playful , kind of a cool perspective to experience at this moment.. alas, let me stop typing , I recognize that I think I'd prefer to let the rest unfold without meddling , but I look forward to riding this out , see where the waves take me and wait for whatever it is that comes to be , whenever it is, as it comes.. enjoying the ride is less comfortable for me and less common, but yet rare moments do arise and i reckon it's probably worth trying that out , it could be that some of what is making things hard to maintain is me not allowing what needs to be washed away, to be washed away .. this is where something very different stirs inside, and it's weird because it's kind of like a risk of feeling life more than loss even if for a tide. Perhaps that is an expansion I need to allow in me to let healing do what it does, but yeah, it's worth the depth and submission, if it's in order to receive both the purge of pain and the pour of peace

[@oliverjamito9902]

Students why even noises comes out from ALL Mouths given? Obviously noises given to hear unto all who have an Ear let them hear. Will Receive noises belongs. Is like unfamiliar ways of speaking unto many but yet is clear as water unto Whom BELONGS? Likewise shared I AM as a little Child "i" remind and comes with comfort unto all the Who am I? Why little "i"? Students will say where else increase belongs? Yes, old minds...to remind and comes with comfort. For Thee all old minds to ease and REST WILL WAIT RIGHT HERE. What is rest? How's thy conversations given just for thee all? Bring all ye ALL having conversations with in front! Even these...bouncing around and going around the mountain and going around the mountain and going around the mountain! In front. Students why these same minds going around the mountain and going around the mountain? Aims without REST but gnashing of teeth! In front of Thee. Likewise let not thy spirit, Hearts, and Minds be troubled! For the world from these old minds have plenty enough of troubled! Rest will wait right Here. Likewise will visit these principalities who deceiveth! Nevertheless...will recognize and receive with DELIGHT! Forgiveness still can be Heard. Now unto all hardening and hearts prefer wax COLD IN FRONT! REMEMBER my Angels who persevere HEARD the WORD and Heirs Hosts knows the VOICE? Unto all Feet resting upon WHO'S FOOTSTOOL? Fowl of the Air will say, who among ye ALL? Owner of the HEAVEN ABOVE! Come in front! Even creation itself knows its RIGHTFUL PLACE in front! Yes including the SUN AND THE MOON. Commanded to persevere. Now my little Child ye all! Thy seasons changes at anytime. Will be with Thee. A little Child "i" came unto thee all! With the AM resting under a SHADE OF A WELL ROOTED TREE sitting upon older than TREES. Yet some will say who is that Man sitting upon the Clouds resting upon the NEW Permanent Foundation? Yet my Beautiful will say remember WHO IS SITTING IN THE MIDST? If Silent remember. Meaning my Heirs Hosts and my Beautiful will continue on...likewise remember "WHO" is not bound nor will ever be bound! Nevertheless...will replace all from my HEIRS HOSTS innocents little ones upon my FOOTSTOOL! NEW MINDS GOD'S GLORY! Remember unto thee all old minds from HERE! NEVERTHELESS Indeed WILL the SON will visit Thee! Clarity, coherence, adequacy, evidence, and witnesses has to be out poured unto all! Before... ANGELS WHO PERSEVERE HEARD THE WORD WILL SAY...

[@Parsons4Geist]

Sorry could I get clarification John when you say your subjectivity against my subjectivity are you just pointing to hegel's master slave distinction in how this goes wrong. Am I understanding is this is a misrecognition Hagel points to in the phenomenology keeps pointing to our misrecognition leads to greater reason. This lack and reverse teleology in coming to truth through hegel Freud lacan Zizek. The hysteric stands between two worlds of universal And Particular. This non thing symbolize by both you and Zizek in the zombie.

[@wenladam]

Who first thought bill burr?

[@iankclark]

lolwut? no

[@riabronte3599]

His necklace is hot 👀

[@nickgroves-dv9zj]

Famous last words - "and now that religion is no longer viable as it once was" 😂 as they then go on to spend a large chunk of time talking God

[@justinthillens2853]

Religion used to be both fully literal and fully metaphorical, which allowed incarnation to flourish with meaning, but the enlightenment reconfigured our standard for perceiving that relationship which undermined its effectualness. Religion either did away with most of the literalism, or wholly embraced it, either route being much less effective at grounding us than they had been in the past. Religion in this sense of the word is a cultural vehicle that relates us together to God, but God can be found in all things inside and outside the vehicles as well as in nothing at all.

[@jacobjorgenson9285]

God and religion is not the same thing

[@nickgroves-dv9zj]

It feels like we are talking explicitly about Christianity here, so therefore consider: 1. Aquinas had already integrated science and faith from Aristotelian logic resulting in "God's two books" about 3 centuries earlier 2. "Men became scientific because they expected Law in Nature, and they expected Law in Nature because they believed in a Legislator (IE God)" - Lewis 3. Quite clearly religion (Christianity) is alive and kicking and in fact many in the west are turning to the old patristic versions of it, even though it's true that in parts of the west less people are "going to church". But all of the above as a response to you is not relevant to my initial point. I am proposing that the statement "religion is no longer viable as it once was" seemed to be contradicted by the chunky section on say Nicholas of Cusa etc and all the other Christian subtopics voiced by John.. was this not an irony hidden in plain sight?

[@nickgroves-dv9zj]

@@jacobjorgenson9285 how so?