But Why Christianity? - John Vervaeke, Jordan Hall, Jonathan Pageau

[@JonathanPageau]

REGISTER TODAY FOR OUR NEW SYMBOLIC WORLD COURSE WITH JOHN VERVAEKE: The Cognitive Science of Ritual. Live classes start on October 7th, 2024, 2-4 pm EST on the Symbolic World Circle community. This is a 6-week, 12-hour online course. All lesson recordings will be made available afterward and all materials will be provided. The final lesson will be co-hosted by Jonathan Pageau in a Q&A format. All patrons at the Involved tier or higher get a 10% discount; see your unique code at the top of the course page and apply at checkout: www.thesymbolicworld.com/courses/the-cognitive-science-of-ritual Join Jonathan Pageau, Jordan Hall, John Heers, and others in Florida for an exclusive, intimate weekend filled with leisure and hospitality. This November event is a fundraiser for First Things Foundation. Learn more: first-things.org/aot

[@maribeltipton226]

My answer to why Christianity is Jesus. I love Jesus.

[@James-g3w7w]

Sir, could you review the WLC V HIJAB DEBATE ON THE TRINITY ON CAPTURING CHRISTIANITY? This is serious for all who uphold the Nicene Creed MONOGENE statement. FROM CATHOLIC ANSWERS: "To undo the creed is to undo the Church. The integrity of the rule of faith is more essential to the cohesion of a religious society than the strict practice of its moral precepts." All of you are defending a heresy to defeat a heresy. Craig himself states he opposed the "eternal generation" in the Nicene Creed. Cameron applauds and brings on three Zionists, two of which are schismatics and one of which doesn't seem to know what he believes. This is not a victory for the Trinity IF that Trinitarian model denies that Christ is the BIBLICAL JOHN 3:16 MONOGENE μονογενῆ Everyone that agrees Craig won is at least a material heretic while Craig is a formal heretic. INCLUDING CAMERON.

[@HappyHeretic1035]

Looking forward to this very much, thanks for putting this together, I cannot wait!

[@JessPurviance]

You can tell how deep the conversation is by how much Jonathan laughs.

[@katieharrisartist]

It’s awesome watching their faces as they so deeply listen to John

[@the300XM8]

Can't wait for Paul Vanderklay 3 hour breakdown of this

[@adrianw5055]

*multiple 3 hour breakdowns

[@elektrotehnik94]

If I don't get at least 6 hours of Paul dissecting this, WITH MANY FREQUENT INTERRUPTIONS! ^^... I may or may not riot. Probably won't. But no promises! ❤

[@martinzarathustra8604]

Yawn. Boring exclusivity nonsense.

[@emmereffing]

@@adrianw5055 > THIS VIDEO IS UNWATCHABLE BECAUSE HE INTERRUPTS TO MAKE COMMENTARY

[@StoryThyme100]

I am indebted to PVK for his interpretations of most of these cohort conversations, otherwise there is so much that I would miss. PVK helps me appreciate earnest conversation. With this particular video PVK frequently highlighted the relationship, sincere friendship of the participants. So far different than a debate or a hidden agenda.

[@BitterBucolic1]

I don't think you can reason your way to Christ by the brute force of your intellect, for that is an act of pride. The door is opened through an act of humility.

[@Squashmalio]

Relevant advice for me, I think. I've been coming to that realization on my own, but what's still stopping me is the fear of putting my life in God's hands. It seems like part of the "deal" is accepting the possibility of ANYTHING, including infinite suffering, and the only reassurance is that whatever happens, it is part of God's plan. I've been at the door, so to speak, of surrendering, but that fear grips me and I can't beat it.

[@42CMA]

​@@Squashmalio Its the middle ground that is the most dangerous. The only God that you should recognize is the one that acts not out of pointless cruelty but of mercy even when suffering is permitted or dispensed. Even in the face of suffering that's to whom your prayer should be aimed at. If you don't accept that, you only have the suffering.

[@jcardenas48292]

Interesting comment from someone using the Yin Yang symbol as their profile although the symbolic meaning of the former is a perfect symbol I love my fellow brothers

[@Lucasloans]

⁠@@Squashmalio “Then the disciple Jesus loved said to Peter, “It’s the Lord!” When Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he put on his tunic (for he had stripped for work), jumped into the water, and headed to shore. The others stayed with the boat and pulled the loaded net to the shore, for they were only about a hundred yards from shore.” ‭‭John‬ ‭21‬:‭7‬-‭8‬ ‭NLT‬‬ Earlier his gospel, he tried to walk on water as Jesus did. he try did it in his own strength and started sinking. In this moment, after Jesus Resurrection, he sees Jesus while he’s naked, which is a reference to Genesis and puts on his clothes. The next thing he does, he dives into the water, to meet Jesus. Sometimes we just have to dive in the water is frightening and terrifying but it is the thing that renews us. I can tell you is a terrifying thing to do, but it is simultaneously the most meaningful thing you can ever do. At the end you’re gonna end up dead anyways so might as well live the most exciting life you can and if you do that well you get to live that exciting life forever and ever. All you need to do is dive in.

[@He.knows.nothing]

​@@jcardenas48292 what defines a perfect symbol?

[@josefranco480]

I just had to say that John is always a class act to really come at this stuff and try and break it down, only to end up strengthening it. He always tries to be respectful especially to the possibility of finding higher truths in dialogue with people. I love his intellectual honesty and rigour it’s truly admirable.

[@oscararvidsson9549]

I agree.

[@Martin-hd2tr]

“For years in my studies I was satisfied with being ‘above all traditions’ but somehow faithful to them... When I visited an Orthodox church, it was only in order to view another ‘tradition.’ However, when I entered an Orthodox church for the first time (a Russian church in San Francisco) something happened to me that I had not experienced in any Buddhist or other Eastern temple; something in my heart said that this was ‘home,’ that all my search was over. I didn’t really know what this meant, because the service was quite strange to me, and in a foreign language. I began to attend Orthodox services more frequently, gradually learning its language and customs…. With my exposure to Orthodoxy and to Orthodox people, a new idea began to enter my awareness: that Truth was not just an abstract idea, sought and known by the mind, but was something personal - even a Person - sought and loved by the heart. And that is how I met Christ.” Fr Seraphim Rose

[@CMA418]

“The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked.” Jeremiah 17:9

[@TheDonovanMcCormick]

Jonathan was cracking me up in this one. All he needed was a bag of chips. This was great as well as funny. John says he doesn't love his child because his child loves him. That's exactly the point, the Father loves you regardless of whether or not you love him. Your child on the other hand loves you because you love them and show them that love and attention. That is our relationship with our Father, that of children. We love Him because he loved us unconditionally first.

[@martinzarathustra8604]

How do you know this?

[@sisyphus9069]

This is what I wanted to say too. In John's analogy, he seems to be saying that we are the father and the "ultimate" is the kid and he loves the "ultimate" independent on whether it loves him back. But in the Christian view, we are in the place of the children and God in the place of the Father, and He loves us even if we don't love Him back.

[@TheOakenwulf]

​@martinzarathustra8604 I suspect in the same way anyone knows anything. Can it be practically applied and result in an experience that is correlated.

[@mathnihil]

There are paths that can stray from the Dao, but the Dao strays from no path. Honestly, I don't see how is this any different.

[@TheOakenwulf]

@@mathnihil the difference between philosophies is in the details.

[@Martin-hd2tr]

Jordan's question: "Does it care about you?" is right on the money and summarizes this whole discussion. John is caught up in philosophizing about the One, the Many, relationality and all of these ideas, but the Christian God actually IS personal. Jesus Christ is a person. That's the entire point. And being in an actual relationship with this personal God is what affords us to become deified and live eternally, as persons and that's entirely different from just engaging with an abstract impersonal "ultimate reality" as John calls it. And the essence of the difference is love. That's why John got defensive when asked if "the infinite" loves him, personally. His answer was "why do you care?". Well, there you have the difference. If you're indifferent towards the love of "the infinite", then you're not really in a personal relationship of love with it, it's an abstraction for you.

[@marios.3497]

John himself has grown through a personal relationship with God, he knows this from within. This is something he has learned to utterly reject. That's why he is defensive on this.

[@davidwalkerblack]

Amazingly stated observation 💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼

[@joe42m13]

John's argument reminds me sort of a watchmaker Deism; agentic beings acting in a clockwork universe. I myself am lost at the conceptualization of a "personal" relationship with Jesus/God. I've heard various explanations but none were very satisfactory.

[@robnaugle4149]

@@joe42m13 in my opinion, the only satisfactory explanation to "having a personal relationship with a God" is found in the Indo-European ancestor cult and hearth worship, heathenry, "paganism" of sorts. It seems more plausible that you could have a kind of noetic loving "personal" relationship with an ancestor that you could trace back and have a more concrete "tangible" connection.

[@MrCman321]

This is the crux of it. The fact that God loves us, and not just in words, but literally suffered a horrific death for us is the difference. When you really take that in, and think about what Christ suffered, for me and you, it is like there is nothing I wouldn’t do to be in relationship with that.

[@DM100]

Have been in deep grief. Can attest to the love of God in that space. Jonathan’s elaboration of the retention of the personal in relationship with Christ is so vital.

[@martinzarathustra8604]

How do you know it was the love of God?

[@DM100]

@@martinzarathustra8604 brought me a peace that passes understanding .

[@thehowlingnight1359]

@@martinzarathustra8604 what else could it be? Something impersonal can not love personally

[@AdventusQ]

This is my Super Bowl

[@elektrotehnik94]

I needed to remind myself to eat - this happening is too intense! 🥵 ^^ ❤

[@Daniel_Abraham1099]

Better than the Super Bowl

[@crystalwaters9059]

Tee shirt that!

[@ckokomo808]

The image of myself when listening to these conversations is being on an inner tube connected to a boat. And these guys are just enjoying themselves on that boat. Meanwhile, I’m barely holding on😂 It’s always so exciting to listen, learn, and engage…I’ll admit I’m a bit guilty of only watching the YT videos and need to get out in the community a bit more. That being said, I’m tremendously grateful for these conversations. They’ve brought me back to Christ and have modeled a way of dialogue that we no longer see today. Thank you all 🙏

[@alexvatoussis6001]

This is the single best dialogue on the nature of Christianity, period. My gratitude to all three of you. ❤

[@martinzarathustra8604]

Is it?

[@kevinquinnkelly]

This seems like the conversation that Jonathan and John have been creating the groundwork for over all these years. It is also the conversation I have been having internally over all these years. I have found myself moving slowly from John’s position closer to Jonathan’s. Thank you, I found this extremely beneficial.

[@musiclover44551]

I want to preface this comment with the fact that I love Vervaeke. I relate to him and his hesitance with accepting Christianity. We share a lot, from bad experiences with church and opinions on it. Hell, I've even met the man. This is all to say, John's not ready. I cannot say all this philosophical talk is helpful or detrimental to his salvation, but I believe it will all be to His glory in the end. Who knows, maybe this conversation will leave seeds that lead to John one day falling to his knees and proclaiming that, "The infinite does love me." Be patient with him guys. He is sharpening our swords for us, a most fitting helper. Pray for him.

[@EricWorthington]

John one day falling to his knees and proclaiming that, "The infinite does love me." I agree.

[@jammasterlee]

I agree we need ppl like John.

[@AugustasKunc]

He's the good opponent for sure.

[@vimalpatel4060]

A blacksmith who works, and maybe the fire speaks through him, sometimes. Maybe, one day, the blacksmith takes the fire, in him. I don't know, but I it reminds me of pentacost.

[@iiixtheory]

@musiclover44551 since you’re a music lover I’d like to wager a musical metaphor to share my POV about your POV such that you may see John’s POV from a different angle… Imagine infinity as the conductor of a multiversal symphony at the end of time, enticing those of us playing in an eternal playground of this one Universe, or “one verse/song” playing on repeat while infinite musical multi-versity awaits on the other side of this life if lived in accord with the conductors infinite vision as it aligns with those that see reality as requiring a conductor. Now contrast that with what I’d wager John’s POV experiences the same musical metaphor as being without a conductor standing at the center orchestrating each note in some central entity but rather, distributing that essence of a conductor out into the orchestra of self transcending virtuosos who play as if they are the conductor and the performer of a given instrument (like the body of a professor Vervake who academically structures the same experience albeit without the necessity of a conductor at the center of it all as it would be for theists.) John is a non-theist. Not an atheist. Which affords him far more grace with his approach to the question and mystery of God or Aseity/self existence. Rather than conclude one way or the other, Vervake judiciously and agnostically tip toes through the sacred spaces where fools and fanatics are quick to proclaim the existence or non existence of a deep and abiding enigma that can not be concluded one way or the other… yet! One day, after many conversations like this podcast, perhaps. But it’s still a work in progress and not a settled matter in any epistemic sense. So what I hear from people that misunderstand that the ultimate truth of Gods existence is likely to be a surprise to all but those of non-theistic sentiments such as I just described is: twofold in both directions, a “bless their heart” mentality from theists to atheists as if one day they’ll wise up. And from atheists to theists a type of intellectual superiority of one day theists will educate themselves out of their beliefs like some atheists have done. Neither side can see the necessity of both sides as interlocutors. Dualistically dancing in an eternal mystery not designed to be concluded in competition or comparison but rather in the joy of the dance and play of it all before we leave the playground to enter what is on the other side of infinity behind this suspicious conductor character we’ve imagined into existence. I believe both theists and atheists or believers and non believers are in for an eschatological surprise if any certainty or confidence in their position was ill begotten. I hope my message finds you well and not as an attack or rebuke of anything you hold dear. I just thought it may be helpful to share what I see with someone that says “pray for him/her” about anything as if you already know what the real truth actually is. It reads as disingenuous at face value and I feel you don’t mean to expose this side of yourself but as it turns out; words are confessions in expression of our true form. And much like if you had a piece of since in your teeth while making a profound point in a passionate speech, I’d care about you enough to say bruh you got a lil something in your teeth there rather than ignore it and let you notice it when you get home and wonder why no one told you…

[@bellahond1]

1:31:00 “I’m not saying i’m going to become a Christian” *Small slow smirks appear on both the Christian’s faces* Love it!

[@martinzarathustra8604]

Barf.

[@HrvojeSL]

Six months or six years, but Mr. V will get there and we'll all look back on this moment and smile

[@F--B]

This entire thing - the Meaning Crisis, the Vervaeke Foundation, the Silk Road - is basically just one man's circuitous route back to his faith via the public square.

[@JadeOates]

I loved Jordan Hall's episode, but I think Vervaeke's addition was so needed! It's beautiful to see the increased precision of argument happening in real time. Thank you!

[@martinzarathustra8604]

Hall is sooooo pretentious.

[@stpasha]

Yes! The grouping I’ve been waiting for! The 3 of your have played a role in my profound reversion to Catholicism over the last 4 years. I can’t think you enough for inspiring and articulating the faith I’d allowed to go dormant. So many opening to the power of ritual, symbolism and ancient wisdom - and the reason found there in. These are amazing times. Truth, Beauty, and Goodness prevail. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

[@andrewwilson9183]

That is unfortunate

[@cameronsmith8775]

This is what the world needs. I am grateful to witness it. This type of work is often undervalued.

[@useyournous]

these are just three men. The world needs Christ Jesus.

[@cmartsolf]

Legendary. This is the best dialogue on religions I’ve ever heard. It’s like they started at the highest intellectual philosophical peak and gradually walked down the mountain of lived life, to arrive at love as the foundation of all things. Beautiful discussion!

[@arono9304]

Johnny V, Jordy H, and Jonny P all in one! What a treat!

[@matfar100]

The father JP the son JH and the spirit JV

[@adrianstumpp5883]

This is the most transcendent comment in the thread, in my opinion. These are god's children finding their way to The Way.

[@chrisc7265]

Jordan Hall, welcome to the J-Team

[@Matterful]

.. I want to try to encourage you all to keep specifically this going, and to try to keep getting this deeper. This was incredibly valuable for me.

[@Matterful]

A series in this very direction would be genuinely beautiful.

[@jonobnz7597]

This deepened my understanding of Christianity. Thanks for sharing this convo publicly boys!

[@aidantreays6497]

So much affection for the 3 of you and the beautiful way it all rounded out at the end. The point that Jonathan and Jordan were making kept bringing me to tears. To know I am loved by God ; it just totally flaws me. The way that love rushes into the hidden parts , the shame filled parts of myself ..it’s so personal and lights me up. Thank you all so much ! Blessings.

[@SabriGazail]

It gives me hope for humanity that this type of conversation has been viewed 26,000 times in one day.

[@oliverjamito9902]

26,000 times come here in front and remind! ABLE! How? Lord thy FEET RESTING UPON! GRATITUDE AND HONOR!

[@PhilLeith]

I learned a new word today! "Skeptard". 😀 Thank you, John. :-D :-D :-D

[@ISAYWORDS1]

I think i need to listen to this every day for like a month

[@PaulVanderKlay]

This thing really starts to cook around the 50minute mark when they get into kenosis. I will not brag in anything but Christ crucified and our union with Him in His death.

[@TonyCRosa]

I love John Vervaeke. He teaches us all to think and converse. The philosophical Silk Road project sounds like a beautiful gift to Christians who are willing to participate in good faith

[@F--B]

What do Christians get from it?

[@michaelangelovalerio]

Nothing but a subtle subversion of it... but with a self-depreciating smile

[@FREEAGAIN432]

beautiful conversation. Revealing and inspiring on many dimensions. Deep bow to all three of you for sharing your insights and wisdom.

[@AlexLGagnon]

I just wanna say it was very courageous of John to face two christians in a discussion. Whatever the motivation and the outcome. God bless you all!

[@CaesarReb]

Beautiful. Thank you all.

[@JohnVandivier]

these guys are ACTUALLY smart. so wonderful to listen. thanks, men.

[@romanvanree833]

Lol that eyebrow raise by Pageau in the intro when Vervaeke responds "why does that matter to you?" Such a telling response. Just beautiful. Looking forward to watching the whole thing.

[@MarcosBetancort]

The answer to the whole discussion was given by Jonathan unawares to most or all: "Jesus is the king folks".

[@makaminsk]

"when you have an experience of profound grief, utterly shattering, well beyond maps, deeper than your faith, and you notice that there's something there, that you're not alone in that grief." This was my experience. Very hard to communicate, well said.

[@robertb3336]

I found this conversation to be very enlightening, very thought provoking. Thank you.

[@diaphanouswaters]

John, I formerly inhabited what I believe to be approximate to your worldview. I came from a Protestant background. I am now an Eastern Orthodox Christian. Jonathan had a profound influence in this process. I was formerly into Neo Advaita Vedanta, but studied Zen and Watts and Krishnamurti, did psychedelics etc. I love you very much and am going to do the dubious act of putting a poem in the comments section of a KZbin video. I think you should read, “His Life is Mine” by St. Sophrony of Essex. The key unmentioned aspects-repentance, the Saints and the Church-the body of Christ. Here goes: DIE BEFORE YOU DIE The things that you have are not yours To have, at least, not in any permanent Sense. Have you forgotten? You were brought into being by Word and Breath. Who brought you, brings you here to read this? You lay claim, you have been given The ability to do so. To whom do you Relinquish? To whom do you give thanks For the mere fact-being. A part of you doesn’t want anyone for this. This part pulls down, rends asunder. The whole of you yearns for Him, His Perfectly unified diversity-love-the end All things that begin begin for. A part of you doesn’t want a face To face. This parts wants nothingness- Loneliness without host-that invisible Throne in an empty room. The whole of you is already hidden In Him. You must put to death the part of you That refuses to be found.

[@colbymay6044]

If you got into Advaita Vedanta what kept you from studying Dvaita when you decided God must be distinctly personal?

[@DeepTalksTheology]

Also, the quality of genuine friendship among you makes for better questions that allow for challenge without the perception of threat. John would never ask "why does it matter to you?" without deep respect and relationship with Jordan.

[@oscararvidsson9549]

This was something I noticed too. John is rarely ever confrontative like that with anyone. But the friendship turned the phrase from something hostile towards something explorative.

[@omdangy]

they’re overly fixated on respecting each other and being non confrontational, that in reality nothing of real value comes out of this convo

[@rinwesley3092]

Wow! I think I understand about 30% of the conversation but I still loved it. Gonna have this one on repeat because there were just so many golden nuggets dropped from everyone. Thanks for this talk.

[@dr.sharendaroam]

I loved the whole conversation and genuine inquiry, even though ultimately it was a very unsatisfying conclusion. When we dive into philosophies such as Buddhism, it is also important to explore fundamental aspects, such as reincarnation and karma in order to better understand the whole system. Although, picking and choosing the bits that we find beautiful and helpful is part of the human desire in understanding religious structures. In Christianity, there is that very important intimate aspect expressed in the scriptures that says, “for God so loved…”. Thank you to all 3 of you!❤

[@joeforeman3027]

Oneness is itself an Escape. Meaninglessness is itself an Escape, so whether it is the meaninglessness of the Zen riddle, or absurdist western philosophy, or individualism, or the ontological insufficiency of a mathematical explanation, the system itself kills in proportion to consistency with it. Trinitarian thinking by contrast brings life with consistency and meaning, best described as fruit

[@david_n_nettey]

If I see Jonathan laughing, that's how I know it's going to be a really good talk

[@chdao]

"I am part of a Living Whole that wants the best for me and all others at the same time." William Douglas Horden

[@Rockell479]

I’m so excited for this discussion. Grew up very Christian, got into meditation in my 40s and started seeing the value of eastern traditions and studying them more. I believe they also are great pointers and at the core say the same things as Judeo Christian traditions. I don’t see any of the religions though as being the ultimate pure truth, mostly just pointers back to God or source or whatever. But I do still have a hard time with how many of the people who teach from the eastern perspective act like this life and all thoughts are just nonsense and don’t matter at all… they act like life is an accident that never should’ve happened.

[@CMA418]

Some of them act that way. Some of them act as if mortality is a “trap” fueled by “rebirth”. Which it’s possible that could be the case. Jesus and Socrates also both spoke of rebirth. Are you familiar with the Parable of the Blind Men and the Elephant?

[@ChildofGod98765]

Heavenly Father continue to protect me and my sons. As a single mother things are hard on me. Both of my sons are special needs. I’m overwhelmed because I’m struggling to provide the necessities for them. Give me strength as I struggle to pay my bills each month because I’m tired. Lord get me through this in JESUS NAME! ❤️ ❤️

[@myhatmygandhi6217]

Be careful praying in a public forum

[@patrickkrueger8768]

How is it us fathers can help such a mother ? Lord rain down your blessings upon your daughter and her children that there is not a big enough store house to hold the blessings and strength Amen .

[@baalstone675]

I am praying for you my sister. May God be with you and your son's. You have my love.

[@immortalityprjct]

@@myhatmygandhi6217Thank God that you have the opportunity to pray for her

[@benjaminlquinlan8702]

Don't be too careful about praying in public!!! There is power in His name. Your family will be in our family's prayers Child of God.

[@rainmaker6261]

Praying for Jordan and his family. Was just listening to this and heard him mention being in the mountains of North Carolina. Luckily it sounds like they're doing ok.

[@kennyblobbin]

A meeting of three massive minds!

[@jamesayres6697]

Sometimes one just has to have profound humility, you may never be able to square the circle, but love what you are attempting to do.

[@JessPurviance]

This was wonderful. Thanks to all three of you.

[@matthewparlato5626]

Love these fellas. Friends wrestling, lovingly. Cheers mates!

[@GP-xv3wk]

Chill inducing conversation, we’re truly at the frontiers of thought here!

[@s2a1ha1j2a]

I laughed and cried and wondered and gave thanks the whole way. And - - "we can't be meta." Thank you gentlemen: the Holy Spirit was here with us today!

[@climbingmt.sophia]

Been wanting this conversation for about 3 years now

[@boroclan]

John is not wrong for pointing this out

[@SofaWrld2]

A bit off topic, but I often hear Jonathan quoting the great commandment "love god, love they neighbor" - but i think its worth including more of the quote as "love god, love thy neighbor as thyself" I think ppl need reminders to love themselves too ❤

[@boroclan]

This makes my heart shine. God bless these fellas.

[@DrWolves]

Jonathan. I have nothing but respect for you.

[@fluid_mechanics_music3184]

the question would be for John V: does Christ fulfill the ideals of Buddhism? Does Christ fulfill the definition of "logos made flesh" as you would understand such phrase? If so, then I think there is agreement. Point #2: the thing about Christianity missing in John V's system is WORSHIP. John V's system is an amazing exploration of the paths towards enlightenment. I might be missing something but I wonder what he would think about the concept of worship. In my opinion Christianity places a greater emphasis on worship than other traditions and this has the effect of bringing a community together towards a common ultimate goal, which is important.

[@huntz0r]

Worship is the thing which makes all of this have a point. If there's no transcendence then what even is enlightment other than mental masturbation, and what is progress other than societal masturbation? The end of all of it is still death and irrelevance. All ways of dealing with this fact amount to deferring it, pushing the bounds of your finite existence out far enough that you can ignore the border problem. Much like young people can usually get away with not caring about death as it's so far off. Usually, but not always.

[@thylabyrinth]

@huntz0r Very poignant post and your quip about “usually, but not always” perfectly explains the sudden fanaticism of the Left in the face of covid. Suddenly the distant future wasn’t so distant, particularly for people who spent years neglecting their body and health in the ideological pursuit of self-gratification.

[@ghun131]

I think asking whether love exists in Zen is beside the point. Expecting love means desire exists and that desire will in one way or another lead to suffering. By not attaching to love (nor shunning love but just let it be), you extinguish desire. When you detach yourself with everything, you experience yourself as the original self and experience the outside world as the real world without any internal noises.

[@ghun131]

I'm afraid JV was so much into the flow of the conversation that he could not express his point

[@daneracamosa]

I have learn the lot from John Vervaeke over the years and his insights are quite powerful... His questions are always deep and probing and provocative bringing out the best in Jonathan and in this case Jordan as well... Having said all that there's still remains what appears to be a deep deep wound at the heart of Vervaeke from his negative experiences with Christianity as a child and an almost desperate quality in many of his arguments. Jonathan does not proselytize and neither does Jordan from what I can tell... I get the impression that John is fighting demons he doesn't even know he has... Perhaps it's the source of his entire project. Regardless, I'm grateful for these conversations

[@joseph3982]

Wow!!! This was just epic. This conversation got me thinking about life in ways I've never experienced before.

[@KevinMakins]

The pastoral insights on this one, specifically about being "high status guests" and quality conversation, is a great "open secret."

[@ArchangelIcon]

What a fabulous discussion. I had to keep pausing to look up words 😊 but I must have crossed myself so many times during the conversation as things came to light from Jordan and Jonathan. Thanks very much.

[@ruthregister740]

Good job by JP, & I'm glad to have had Jordan hall presented to my attention some weeks ago...

[@juanromero7189]

Love is unity. Non duality hence is seeing Love in its purest form.

[@HumanDignity10]

I love the witness of Roy Schoeman. He was raised Jewish, then was an atheist, but then had encounters with Jesus and Mother Mary. When he encountered Jesus, he knew he was fully known and held in an ocean of love by God, and he could see how any suffering in his life had meaning and purpose, and how every action had a moral content. Roy Schoeman is now Catholic.

[@katek8442]

"May the Lamb receive the reward of His suffering. (starting with me)". The joy set before Him on the cross was the reward of His re-unification of the Bride and the Bridegroom. Joyful Connection + Holy Communion = Divine Union (at one ment with God). Good talk :-)

[@DerekJFiedler]

This was a fun one. Thank you gentlemen!

[@OfAbram]

Christianity is unique in that it is not purely monoadic (islam, platonism, Buddhism) nor is it pluralistic (paganism, Hinduism, new age). It is trinitarian. And only in this framework can you have the idea of a person. One who is both distinct from all others but can also love others. We are not the same person (as opposed to monasic thought) but we are also not fundementally divided from others (pluralistic). This is unique among Christianity in the entire world.

[@WhiteStoneName]

Well said.

[@Valosken]

Neither Buddhism or (necessarily) Hinduism are monadic or pluralistic; Buddhism certainly is not monadic. They're non-dual (advaita in the case of Hinduism).

[@JulianH3nry]

Oh God bless you guys.

[@jeffk862]

A good way to look at it is that Christianity is the ultimate expression of embodied dialogos. The ultimate design of it and why it is, respectfully, the best culmination of factors that can be found in other faiths.

[@oliverjamito9902]

It's amazing in a blink nor a twinkle of an eye!

[@dynamic9016]

Really appreciate this video.

[@eazyelof4283]

I never seen this channel before, I thought the topic sounded interesting, and have recently answered this question for myself so I was curious to see what the answer was for others. I don't know these guys, but John was so patient. I feel like Jordan never really understood what John was getting at. The first 20 minutes was quite funny, and was an example of what the rest of the conversation was gonna be like. Jordan is like a living caricature of an enlightened christian, he had me cracking up at some of his bewildering statements and weirdly assertive laughter. Jonathan did well to rephrase Jordan without the grandiose abstractions. This is how interpreted the beginning: John "so Jordan, you have an argument for participatory knowing, and thats cool, but that argument doesn't actually lead to Christianity.. so after accepting that argument what gets you to Christianity, specifically? Jordan "lmk if I'm talking too abstractly, I just operate on a high level, it can't be helped if its too unintelligible for you. [Forced chuckle] So we have maps, but there is the 'protomap' from which all maps are derived. John thinking to himself "exactly. He must be going into why he chooses Christianity specifically as the map to comprehend that 'protomap' next, right? Right?" Jordan continues "so what we're trying to do is enter into a relationship with that protomap, which is a reciprocal opening. That's Christianity HAHA" John "umm yeah? [Baffled stutter from overconfident irrelevant response] ...But... why Christianity?" Then they keep talking for an hour but the question is never really answered because John is too nice to force the conversation back into the context of "why christianity?" Seems like Jordan's answer really is because its "the best" which of course goes back to the problems John already laid out in the beginning

[@ibelieve3111]

Thanks

[@williambranch4283]

I see things differently. As a convinced Trinitarian Christian, who has practiced Zen and Vajrayana ;-)

[@l.sophia2803]

same..

[@williambranch4283]

@@l.sophia2803 In synchronic time, everything is symbolically close together. Diachronic time obscures this.

[@l.sophia2803]

@@williambranch4283 That is an amazing observation!! Thank you, whole heartedly!

[@matthewparlato5626]

Billiam!!!! We have such a weak understanding of Time, imo

[@williambranch4283]

@@l.sophia2803 I have metaphorically been to the top of Mt Kailash, literally been to Eiheji monastery, and made pilgrimage to Patmos and Delphi Been there, done that. I encourage all true seekers, regardless of what deity manifests to you.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Now thy shared minds growing!

[@oliverjamito9902]

Specially for the Candy as an offering to comfort the comforter!

[@Landbeorht]

The tldw on this convo is Kenosis and Communion - how Bulgakov or Zizioulas were not brought up anywhere feels like a missed opportunity!

[@crystalwaters9059]

“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life and there are few who find it.” Matthew 7:13 It’s scary and almost impossible to believe that God Loves us and Needs us Perfectly while we feel so imperfect and want to ‘Gain’ (the idolization of Being or attachment to our way of understanding) when there is Nothing to gain but to sacrifice ourselves in order to fulfill God’s love in the highest. It’s the most difficult path.

[@markoboychuk]

Well this was exquisite! Thank you gentlemen 🙏🏼

[@nickoftime5759]

Only 20 seconds into the video and I am all in for this one!

[@2stephenschwartz]

This is the McGilchrist conundrum of not wanting to close in on one gate to open up what is on the other side.

[@matthewparlato5626]

S.S.!!

[@He.knows.nothing]

I don't think anyone can truly do this without ultimately becoming ascetic

[@redirishmanxlt]

This was such an amazing, thought provoking, existentially challenging conversation! I want to thank all of you for the courage, honesty and charity brought to such a difficult, but fascinating dialogue!

[@johnmorrison2894]

“Does it care about you?” Good question “why does that matter to you!” Bad answer

[@nuggetman37]

Would be interesting to hear a civil convo between Jay dyer and Vervaeke. Maybe that could only happen in this round table format.

[@MrCman321]

If Jay could keep it truly civil I think it would be an amazing conversation. If vervaeke could get his head around things, I can imagine it would make it easier for it to reach into his heart.

[@Fed-tt6cp]

As great as Jay Dyer is at explaining the ins and outs of the Orthodox faith he really does seem a bit hard headed when it comes to pedagogical conversation. He's too prone to debate as a zero sum game which is a shame because he really is an incredibly mature man and could be a great figure when it comes to teaching the faith to the most rebellious of unbelievers.

[@zurewmurew7485]

Jay Dyer is a joke

[@mahdielzein85]

How I would love a conversation between these men in addition to Peterson

[@joetunon]

John says he gets from Zen what the other two get in Christianity. I wish one them would have pointed out: Buddha said he wasn’t God, and Jesus did. Buddha said “don’t look to me look to my dharma (doctrine)”, but Jesus said “I AM the way, the truth and the light.” You can participate in love in either religion. But only Christ makes the credible claim of being the God who is Love itself. That’s the “why” of Christianity. With respect, you can’t get that from Zen Buddhism because it’s not there.

[@lucasfabisiak9586]

If the highest state of being is love, then this must apply to both creation and creator.

[@Worldview1985]

This was great! 👍🏽 Thank you

[@simonskinner1450]

Faith for a Christian is obedience to that which they trust, whether by direct experience or trusting others who had, in the end trust requires reason of reality from experiences.

[@anatomicallymodernhuman5175]

I'd love to hear John dialogue with the philosopher Esther Lightcap Meek on this subject. Her book Loving To Know, while focused on epistemology, has a lot to say that is pertinent to this conversation.

[@oliverjamito9902]

My beautiful will say, HE HOLDING UPON HIS 2 HANDS!

[@jasonscholl2945]

Thank you gentleman. 👏👏👏

[@jamesburns4226]

This comment is partly for John. I think what also speaks to me about Christianity is the utter beauty/sublime/terrible aspect of what came up at around 58:00 when Jordan is talking about parental agape and god's agape for creation and his suffering for the suffering of creation. The magnitude of it is awe-ful. And it has an undeniable beauty that speaks a kind of truth to me. It reminds me of when (and pardon me if I don't get this exactly right) in the past you've said you'd rather cease to exist after you die, because of not wanting to face all the past suffering that you may have caused. Imagine what it would be like for god. There is an incredible price of self sacrifice for existence.

[@babyBmaj]

As a long long time follower and fan of John's work, I definitely feel like he is somehow stuck. stuck in some kind of mode of understanding which is impairing his ability to understand. It certainly feels more debate than rich dialogos. To quote john- "Sometimes prior expertise in one area can interfere with your ability to perform in another area."

[@symeondk]

KENOSIS of CHRIST is the setting aside the power and Glory of the Divine Logos so that Christ's experience and triumph is Fully Human. To correct the Fall of Adam (Man) could only happen by a Man but there is none worthy so God necessitated His Incarnation as the Second Adam.

[@Landbeorht]

It should be stated that the eschatological vision of Nondualism (Advaita Vedanta) being referenced here - 48:50 is not the all encompassing vision found in dharmic religion and should not be used over and over again as a refutation of it. Being and communion within god while retaining identity is found within mainstream and orthodox? Vishishtadvaita schools. While I agree with Jonathan in many aspects here let's get past these memes of dharmic religion is reduced to "drop in the ocean of Brahman" language.

[@oliverjamito9902]

Yes, slowly!

[@GiraffeNews]

It's like John is trying to have an explorative conversation about an open philosophical question, but is faced with some who already have all the answers. This kind of setup works great for a debate, but not so well for John's line of socratic dialogue where you are trying to explore something new.