Exploring Religion in DUNE - Stilgar & the Lisan Al-Gaib | Dune Part Two Explained

Dune Part Two explores the impacts of religious fanaticism on a personal relation and on a people. Was Paul Atreides really the Lisan Al-Gaib, was it all a lie, or none of the above?
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[@ryanhampson673]

I’m a long time fan of the novels and know the story well. I was not expecting the emotional response that came over me at “lead them to paradise.” Dune 2 surpassed everything I hoped this adaptation would be. Masterpiece.

[@zatannaluvr5427]

i loved what you mentioned about how the fremen treated the harkonnens in the beginning vs. end of the movie. there is a very obvious water vs. fire motif in the fremen vs. harkonnen ways, so to see them become harkonnens like paul encouraged is heartbreaking. i’ve seen it 3 times in theaters and it only gets more layered the more i watch! great analysis.

[@chasx7062]

Considering that Jessica replaced a harkonnen Tyrant with another harkonnen

[@wojtek1582]

We shouldn't probably even wonder if Lisan al-Gaib was real as his arrival was a story planted by Bene Gesserit centuries before Paul. So Lisan al-Gaib was always a fake. A legend prepared to help Bene Gesserit in the future.

[@samwize28]

It’s depends how you define it. If the Lisan Al-gaib is defined as a supernatural and god-like prophet, then no, Paul is not that, and it isn’t real. But if it’s defined simply as a prophecy figure. I.e a man who fits a certain description as designed by the Gesserits, then yes he is real and he is him.

[@wewatchmovies4446]

While your point seems initially valid to me, after watching the video it seems like you didn't hear the argument "...it doesn't matter.."

[@Bella_Morningstar]

Not entirely fake.. the bene gesserit have their own plans of a kwisatz haderach. So that when he comes, the worlds would accept him thanks to the prophecies that they scattered around. So not entirely false but yeah definitely also used to manipulate these people

[@therev2100]

It is true. The further you get into the Dune universe, the more you realize that the prophecy is true, except Leto II is the true Lisan Al Gaib, as he chooses (and this is a spoiler) to become a human/sandworm hybrid to save humanity from collapsing in on itself. Paul rejected sacrificing that aspect of his humanity to save the human race.

[@johnndamascene]

Fake? Looks like he showed up. Very surface level analysis

[@jeffcalderwood7109]

I was so curious going in to Part Two if this theme would get written out of the movie, but Denise nailed it!

[@WhiteDaddyBlackMommaWhiteBaby]

Stilgar went from a nameless desert chief to probably etching his name in history by conquering whole planets.

[@TheEnricgs]

Beautifully explained. Denis and all the people involved in the movie did such a good job of portraying this idea of Frank Herbert. I can't get enough of this movie. What a time to be alive!! Loved the video! I hope you have more of these coming ;)

[@calderdune]

Thanks a ton! I’ll do my best to get more of these out soon!

[@5unny5ide]

The universe will end for mankind unless it follows the golden path. Pual is the beginning of that path, so Pual is HIM. A false prophet or false Messiah can only be false if he isn't who he actually is. Pual is the guy even though he's reluctant to be because what he has to do is awful. So technically Stilghar is right and his faith is properly placed. Those things have to happen for humanity to continue, so it isn't a cautionary tale. It's the story of the savior of humanity. Great video btw.

[@Ale-dd3ek]

Fair point But the Lisan al gaib Is only part of the fremen religion, It doesn't have anything to do with the Golden path

[@5unny5ide]

@Ale-dd3ek Very true, but the prophecy being planted turned out to be so integral to the beginning stages of the path that it could be almost seen as divine intervention. Even with Paul's massive OP power of foresight, his only choice is narrow and slim. When I 1st read the book, I thought it was a warning about following blindly. But as I've gotten older, I don't think that's what the book is about. Blind faith wouldn't lead to humanities salvation if it was.

[@kalewintermute28]

While the Lisan al Gaib was a contingency placed by the Bene Gesserit, religion in general is also a fiction many people use as a safety net.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

No, he’s a very naughty boy!

[@chadicuschaximus1071]

Keep up the dune content my boy 👊

[@calderdune]

I’m on it!

[@dlysele]

I think in the movie where Paul is the messiah to bring the Fremen people to paradise, there is an implied meaning that Paul will take them to a place where there will be so much water that they can swim in it. Denoting the belief that if you follow Paul, water will be so plentiful that you can waste it to your heart content.

[@calderdune]

This is a super interesting idea, I love it!!

[@chasx7062]

Its a double entendre? paradis in a relgious sense or s general sense

[@djdwoodward]

Awesome video, Kyle! Dune is the "gesamkunstwerk" - the "total work of art."🙏🎨

[@calderdune]

Thanks David, great to see you on here!

[@darthtleilaxu4021]

I don't care what you believe: I believe!

[@davidsledge5206]

Excellent analysis!

[@wewatchmovies4446]

Great analysis and commentary. Thank you

[@calderdune]

Thanks for your kind words!

[@wezz7270]

This is a really well made video btw, learnt a lot of new information about this epic movie, keep up the good vids bro I'll be here 🫡

[@calderdune]

Thanks a ton, I appreciate it!

[@nelson_rebel3907]

Other people already mentioned that the whole Lisan Al Gaib prophecy was planted by BG sisters. So it ultimately is a pointless question. I think it's far more important that people ***believed*** he was. And that, that has power

[@abdulhannan0107]

Yes, before you believe in a religion, study and think hard about it. Only then Follow it , dont just inherit the religion from your family God has given us brains to think.

[@vaskaventi6840]

I was under the impression that the prophecy was real when Chaney (I forget how her names spelled) revived Paul by placing her tears on him. Up until this point, Paul hadn't done anything miraculous, and him drinking the piss that no man had survived is one thing, maybe because he's the kwisatz haderach (guessing spelling) that let him do that, but even if his body had the capacity to survive it, why would it only be revived when the tears of someone (NAMED AFTER THE PROPHECY) were placed on his lips? That seemed supernatural to me.

[@JorgeLinares-fg8yx]

Who said he was revived by chani ?

[@vaskaventi6840]

@@JorgeLinares-fg8yx Was he lying pretending to have near zero vitals until she put her tear on his lip? Why did he say "thanks to you" when revived?

[@dkdisjsjsmakalakaoqolqk2727]

The name ‘Paul’ from a outer world may referencing the roman citizen Paul. These reference make everyone re-think about the history of the popular religious.

[@amt3043]

Dune is truly a cautionary tale.

[@chasx7062]

cautionary tale of White Saviourism?

[@steveplummer5779]

I think the discussion isn't whether or not Paul is a messiah, or whether or not he is the Lisan Al-Gaib.... but the danger of messiahs and religious fanaticism in general. The proof is in the action and results. A false messiah uses trickery or other means to make it seem like they fulfill existing prophecies. This is flipped in Dune. He is a true messiah of a false purpose. If a deity lays a plan and puts seeds through religion into a culture, they're called prophets, laying the way for a messiah. The stories are planted. It's hope force fed to people, just like what the Bene Gesserit did. By having prophecies fulfilled, it builds faith in said deity. The proof is in the fulfillment of the so called prophecies, not how those prophecies were laid. So, sisterhood (with superhuman abilities already, near deity level manipulation of the entirety of humanity) or god, it doesn't matter. Prophets were sent, prophecies were made, and they were fulfilled. Paul IS a messiah. The mistake is assuming a messiah is a good thing. Many real life religious messiahs also bring peace for a group but war and death for a great deal of people. Yes, Paul did not reach the pinnacle of "godhood" that the sisters were originally after. But the proof is in the results. He freed the Fremen, and Arrakis bloomed again.

[@5unny5ide]

But without Pual and his children humanity dies. Without that fanatical following Pual fails, he doesn't take the throne, humanity never enters the golden path and ultimately dies. This origin of the prophecy was planted, but it is still a necessity for actual necessary change for all human survival. The actual story is the story about humans eventual rise above its dome to blossom throughout the universe. That religious fanaticism is vital for humanity to survive.

[@goodlight4113]

All religous have been manipulated. Sometimes for the better, but they have still been manipulated.

[@amanofnoreputation2164]

Difficult to say. A myth cannot be spun from whole cloth, nor can it be imposed cynically. It must answer the needs and thereby sustain the society of the believers. So in order to build an effective myth, The Bene Gesserit had to confrom to what the Fremen would find credible. In that sense, they could not have made the Lisan Al-Gaib, only harnessed what archetypes were alreadyat work in the Fremen collective psyche and said, "This is him! He is the vessel for your projections!" Paaul was shaped by the Fremen as much as he shaped them. He was bred and raised specifically to know their ways before he ever set foot on Arrakis. "If God did not exist, it would be necessary to create Him."

[@grantwithers]

Spoiler: yes, paul was in fact the lisan al gaib

[@benjamintrevino325]

Dude, humans are torn apart debating whether or not our own Lisan al-Gaibs are real. I don't think we stomach a debate about Paul Atreides' nature lol. Just kidding. Nice job giving voice to what a lot of people are wondering.

[@magicalpj]

If anyone has to ask if the Lisan Al-Gaib is real, then they didn't understand the story. 🥲

[@guronsahara]

i've heard a lot that the whole lisan al gaib prophecies was fake and made by bene gesserite. But what if, the prophecies that made by the religions are real, and bene gesserite is one of the subject that somehow already determined to become the successor of the prophecies itself?

[@Ale-dd3ek]

They could have used those for their plans but what Paul caused wasn't absolutely part of their plans

[@ZionistWorldOrder]

i liked the old movie better where Messiah status was not in any doubt whatsoever and chani knew her place. In this version we are talking as if the Messiah isnt the master of the most powerful force ever encountered by the Bene Geserit the TRUE POWER. Its not something unreal. Also who told you the dominant religion would be Christianity? Maybe in the 80s. Islam is the most adhered religion today.

[@Ale-dd3ek]

The lisan al gain and the Kwisat Haderach (I 100% mispelled) are 2 different concepts The First Is Among the cults spread by the bene gesserit in the universe for their agenda The latter Is the title of their genetic project The messiah status was something Paul used to rally the fremen so he isn't like Jesus Also considering what he ends up causing I wouldn't consider him a savior

[@Maya_Ruinz]

If someone is able to fulfill the prophecy and make Arrakis a paradise then they truly are the "Mahdi".

[@appalachianoperator]

The interesting thing about jesus is that he not only came. But preached love. Not war

[@adenanshaleh6547]

For me my issue is that it uses Islamic terminology, the theme cautionary messianic figure doesn't sit well with me. Is the use of Islam here aesthetic purpose or does he have a commentary on Islamic eschatology? If it is commentary then he has misrepresented the Islamic idea of the messiah. Firstly Islamic Messiah is Jesus and the Mahdi is leader that will come and welcome the return of Jesus. And within eschatology as we approach it there will be many false messiahs and taught not to be fooled by them. People are not manipulated not because of if but through it, when you are desperate you will cling on to any hope. So if someone were to come and make claims of being the Mahdi and speak about things that are not in accordance to the religion he will be rejected because the religion is already completed they do not have a say in the matter. The concept of the Anti-christ is The false messiah, is not a foreign concept to Muslim. So this cautionary tale is already within the faith, the input that dune provides are not that relevant to Muslim beliefs. what made it not sit well with is because people will come out of it (Dune), Religion is false because they believe in messianic figure and use it to manipulate people. Rather than, when a people is desperate and have grand narratives about themselves people that seek power will use those narrative to fit their own agendas. It just happens Religion have grander narratives compare to atheistic/secular narratives (Nationalism, race) which gives it the potency to influence. So just because you are atheist or secular doesn't mean you will not fall for false mesiahs.

[@yelannn159]

cool vid but the way you use you deliver information and use your hands makes me upset, i know you have a lisp but don't let that affect your body language! be confident bro