Exploring Rockland Ranch: Polygamist Perspectives on Eternal Families & the Afterlife

[@kathleend8611]

I love how you guys stay fair and as neutral as you can while still letting us know your thoughts on the situation. Like when Melissa said, “Emotional abuse? That’s up for debate in these communities”, Sam took a deep breath and nodded with a look on his face that just said “yup”. So respectful and yet so real, informative, and making a point that things can be harmful even with good intentions.

[@GrowingUpinPolygamy]

Thank you so much for your kind words and support 🙂

[@monicamacneille3372]

The problem isn't polygamy! The problem is the blind obedience required by many of these groups that make it very easy for members to be abused, and not even comprehend that it is abuse because of the culture within the groups. I do think we need greater government oversight of churches of all sorts. Abuse exists within all kinds of religions, polygamous or not. How to legislate overview is tricky in a country founded on the principle of religious freedom...

[@GrowingUpinPolygamy]

Thank you for your comment and insight. It is unfortunate that some people use religion as a way to get away with abusing others.

[@SarcasticShrubbery]

As a complete outsider (non-religious European) it's hard for me to understand why it's complicated. Child abuse is illegal, child marriage is (or should be) illegal, forced marriage is illegal, r*pe is illegal etc. * It's not any different if the person committing the crimes is religious or not. Someone can't abuse their child and say "my religion says it's OK" and the police/state just goes "oh well that's fine then". Does religious freedom in the US place one above the law? I find that hard to believe, and if it's true, that's completely bonkers. How do you legislate ~anything~ in that situation?

[@opienattyvlogs7930]

Exactly

[@monicamacneille3372]

I've commented this before but I'm so early I'm hoping you guys will see this! I almost joined the 12 Tribes in Vermont and would love for you to cover that group! While they don't practice polygamy, they live communally and have strict gender roles, and are a patriarchal religious group. There was a big to-do years ago because they practice corporal punishment and there was a raid that took the kids away. The kids were returned, but the reputation as a group that abused children remained. I was 16 when I was approached by a member after school and everything she said and showed me sounded really beautiful and appealing... but I can see how there were darker undertones of obedience to the men that would have been problematic for me. The family I was living with at the time (not my own biological family) was super upset when I told them I wanted to go to one of their open suppers, and forbid me from speaking to them again. I have always wondered if they saved me from a horrible situation, or if it's not as bad as some think?

[@GrowingUpinPolygamy]

Hi! Sorry we missed your past comment but glad we saw this one. 🙂 We will definitely add this group to the list of groups to research and review. Thank you for the suggestions! If you have any ideas of someone we could reach out to for an interview, please let us know.

[@zwetschge80]

I guess it's the same Group as "12 Stämme" in Germany. They leaked Videos from child A B U S E and they made a documentary about ist. The children where taken away by the state so the cult send other children to the USA, because they what to goon with their practice. By the way, the exclusive Bretheren are just as bad.

[@zwetschge80]

Journalist Wolfram Kuhnigk, who introduced himself to the "Twelve Tribes" as a full-bearded seeker of meaning, lived with interruptions for almost two weeks at Gut Klosterzimmern. What the early Christians in the Nördlinger Ries had no idea: the undercover reporter installed cameras and microphones in several so-called "punishment rooms" (Kuhnigk) in the basement of the estate.

[@katego370]

Groups with a huge power imbalance are _always_ abusive. I say that because that's what history has taught us. They always turn out to uphold a severe systematic culture of abuse. So yes, they saved you!

[@Meganec3810]

I always appreciate the videos you guys do on these subjects and the insights you bring!

[@GrowingUpinPolygamy]

Thank you Megan!

[@zackfunnyman33]

When the Supreme Court of British Columbia looked into BC's polygamy laws (due to the FLDS community in Bountiful) it found that polygamy has a number of predictable effects: 1. It will increase the pool of unmarried men psychologically primed to take risks and compete fiercely with other males to obtain reproductive opportunities (this increases crime and risky behavior); 2. The increased competition for female mating partners places a pressure on the recruitment of younger and younger 'brides' into the marriage market; 3. Intense competition for females in a scarce 'marriage market' causes males (as fathers, husbands, and brothers) to seek to exercise more control over the choices of woman (in sex, dating, dress, etc.), increasing male-female inequality and undermining women's autonomy and rights. This is further exacerbated by the fact that the age gap between husbands and wives increases in both polygamous and monogamous relationships in polygynous societies. 4. Men will reduce investment in wives and offspring as they both spread more thinly across larger (in many cases several times larger) families, and increasingly channel these resources into obtaining more wives. Look outside the North America and you will see that polygamy breeds civil war. The 20 most fragile states in the world are all somewhat or very polygamous. Polygamous nations are more likely to invade their neighbours. The polygamous regions of Haiti and Indonesia are the most turbulent. As are South Sudan, Afghanistan and northern Nigeria.

[@shadowandflame99]

This is what I was thinking of too...the BC Supreme Court's conclusion was that polygamy simply causes too many harms to be legalized or recognized as acceptable in Canadian society. In principle I support religious freedom, but there are always boundaries limiting that - for example, we've decided murder isn't acceptable even if your religion tells you to do it - and I agree with the court that polygamy falls outside the acceptable boundaries as well. There are just too many harms that result from this practice. Even if there are a few polygamous families that manage to be emotionally healthy and raise their children without abuse - they don't seem to be the majority, and they are still participating in the other harmful aspects of it.

[@esther5636]

I was thinking it would be super interesting for you to have a discussion/interview with someone or more people that are polyamorous. Somewhat disecting the difference with polygamy and the difference in choice. Might be outside of the scope of your channel, but who knows. Lots of love!

[@GrowingUpinPolygamy]

This would be a very interesting discussion. Thank you for the recommendation. We'll look into it.

[@vilara4]

It would be so amazing if you could interview/visit the rockland ranch community!

[@Seraphim4190]

A sad epilogue to Enoch's family's story is that there was a housefire a few years ago. The baby born on the show to the second wife died from the fire when he was a toddler.

[@coffeeteawhoisshe]

I read that Lydia also got into a big car accident with a truck not long after :(

[@Seraphim4190]

@@coffeeteawhoisshe Jeez. They can't catch a break.

[@GrowingUpinPolygamy]

Oh wow! Thank you for sharing this update. So so sad. We will try to do more research on what the community is like today. I imagine a lot has changed since this documentary was filmed.

[@rosazerkle4549]

Both of these things are correct. Lillian did lose that baby in a house fire and Lydia got into a very bad car accident. Her young son was safe but she lost her second child that she was carrying at the time.

[@nancyamaral5620]

This law also protects illegal immigrants who have been victims of crime knowing they couldn’t go to the police. That is why they have established sanctuary cities

[@GrowingUpinPolygamy]

That makes sense. Thank you for the information!

[@DarkbutNotsinister]

I watched ALL the Rockland Videos. My husband thanks you for introducing me to a new polygamist cult I need to know everything about. For no good reason. 🙄😂

[@GrowingUpinPolygamy]

Tell your husband that he is very welcome 😁

[@BaileyGroe]

Dying!! My husband is the same. “Oh cool…another cult for you to talk to me about for hours….”

[@DarkbutNotsinister]

@@BaileyGroe Have you been asked “WHY DO YOU KNOW THAT?” I’m also into anti Scientology content. I might watch 3 live streams on the same channel in a day. Husband also hates David Miscavage, but not for the reason everyone else hates him. He’s just tired of hearing about a Keebler Elf who runs a multi national human trafficking ring.

[@cherylcrozier-garcia8862]

😂me too!

[@bridgwll]

Heidi Foster, one of the wives of Robert Foster’s son Enoch Foster, is the mother of Jessica Christensen, star of the reality show Escaping Polygamy.(source Wikipedia).

[@byeblckbirdxx]

Did she remarry? She was married to John Daniel Kingston before

[@rosazerkle4549]

Heidi was definitely never married to Enoch. I think she may be his sister?

[@byeblckbirdxx]

@@rosazerkle4549that makes more sense. Heidi was definitely not the first wife, so she likely kept her last name

[@rosazerkle4549]

@byeblckbirdxx That is the general practice, yes. I know Enoch's family. His only wives are all shown in the documentary, and he's never been divorced. I don't know his extended family well, though. We're related through the first wife, Katrina.

[@jenfoster128]

No she isn't. Foster is a made up last name. Her real last name is Mattingly or Kingston if she used her husband's last name. She has always been married to John Daniel Kingston and is no relation Enoch's family. Plural wives in the Kingston group are encouraged to make up fake last names to hide the fact that they are married to polygamous men. Daniel was both Heidi's (Jessica and Andrea's mom) and Shirley's (Shanell and Kollene's mom) husband. Shirley made up the last name Snow to use. Amanda has a different dad but her last name Grant is also made up. It would be either Peterson or Johnson if she went with either her mom or dad's actual last name. I'm also no relation to any of them.

[@pszczolka80]

The thing about outlawing polygamy to prevent abuses is that it's not necessary. There are already separate laws that deal with all those problems, regardless of whether polygamy is involved or not: there are laws against underage marriage, there are laws against child abuse, there are laws against forced marriage - plus all these things can and do happen in single marriages, so they're not even unique to polygamy and therefore outlawing it has nothing to do with specifically preventing those things. It's a complex issue because, on one hand, yes a lot of the societies that practice polygamy are very regressive and have garbage attitudes and treatment towards women and children - but there are also people within our society who are polyamorous completely by choice (and people within other societies who genuinely do choose that lifestyle) who would like to see plural marriage legalised. There is also the issue of the ways in which outlawing polygamy can actually hurt the people it's trying to protect, because the "unlawful" wives (who are often already more vulnerable) lack status and therefore protection and rights under the law. The first time I came across this issue was a very long time ago when I worked at the Department of Immigration (in Australia) and I heard about how families would sometimes come here from countries where polygamy is legal and suddenly the women are no longer considered legally married and lose all the rights that go with it. There have even been cases where a man is trying to bring his family over and he runs into issues because only one wife can be recognised as his spouse, so the others get stuck and family separations occur, with the other women and children being left overseas in a very vulnerable position without protection and support. It's such a difficult issue.

[@katego370]

I struggle to understand how polygamists can see logic in polygamy. Religious or not, educated or not, we all know that the male/female ratio is 50/50. Thus, logic dictates one man-one woman. Otherwise, you have to believe all the extra men are meant to not marry and not reproduce, which is completely contrary to the principles polygamists live by. How do they justify their God giving them as many sons as daughters if he demands men to have multiple wives?

[@maryshehane7711]

I have always believed that if people want to practice polygamy then all the wives should have the legal rights of a legal wife. That includes alimony, community property, child support.

[@katwitanruna]

Break the silence. Break the cycle.

[@elisemarie4894]

The government does NOT care about underage aspect of polygamy. They ONLY care about the money aspect of it. When in a plural marriage only the first wife is legally tied to the husband so the other wives are “single mothers”, therefore not on his health insurance and won’t risk listing his name…therefore then government picks up the hospital bills, pediatrician bill, provides food stamps, provides cash welfare, etc. If the government cared about the underage aspect of it it would have been shut down long ago. Half the problem in Utah is that half the people holding office in Utah are Mormon or fundamentalists.

[@laurenmccall9388]

I looked them up on Facebook awhile back. Looks like the guy with the 3 wives , he took a 4th wife

[@autumfrench3624]

From what I found online child abuse is only 0.21%more common then two parent familes

[@michellesunshinestar]

Thank you for the history. Hope you two are doing well. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my ex could remarry in the temple, but I could not? At least without a Temple divorce?

[@aritzlizarragaolascoaga6254]

Are you active LDS?

[@mienafriggstad3360]

FYI no they are not LDS anymore. They have done videos on this topic

[@opienattyvlogs7930]

Ok so hear me out . If polygamy was completely legal to where not only is it legal but you hold the men legally responsable not only to the 1st wife but all wives to where he has to provide for all wives and kids wouldn't that stop alot of the abuse I feel like alot of the abuse of FLDS was mostly due to leaders it seems like alot of the people were good people they were just tricked by warren And with Kingston group part of the abuse going on seems it is because they arent legally responsable for the other wives and kids if the men were required to support them all not just the 1st wife i bet they wouldn't have so many wives maybe im wrong thats just my theory But theres also abuse going on in all religions not just mornonism and polygamy

[@ryoukichan2037]

I never been here