Exploring Supersonic Flight in the Lockheed F-104 Starfighter in Microsoft Flight Simulator

[@knightonwarbeck1969]

My late father flew the CF-104. The 104 had zero issues going supersonic at any altitude. Either the flight modeling is not correct or your supersonic profile is incorrect. 450 kts/.9M in the climb. Level off at 36,000 ft @ .9M. Zip through the Mach like it isn't there. Notice "passing gear" acceleration or increase in acceleration at 1.4M. Easily take it out to 2.0M and climb at this speed, leveling off at FL500 or FL600 - whatever altitude you wish to cruise supersonically at. The 104 will see Mach 2 with tip tanks. If your 104 just so happens to be in the A model with the -19 version of the J79, you will cruise at 73,000 ft at Mach 2 with 3/4 afterburner, sipping 100 lbs of fuel per minute. Remember to wear your pressure suit. Re-run the mission with the aforementioned climb profile; 1 mission clean and a 2nd mission with tip tanks. No Rutowski Climb profile necessary for the Zipper. As a 104 IP, my father would take students up in the 2-seat with tip tanks, level off at 40,000 ft in 90 seconds. This was on take off. Might be leveling off at 45,000ft, I don't recall which altitude, FL400 or FL450. Now you have 3 missions to fly; 3rd mission is add in the TF-104 with tip tanks, leveling off at FL400/FL450 in 90 seconds.

[@jonbeckett]

I fear that the 104 in MSFS is doing what it can within the bounds of the modelling within the simulator. It's still good fun though.

[@knightonwarbeck1969]

@@jonbeckett It strongly appears so. Try another mission but with tip tanks in the TF model. Enjoyed the video. You did a nice job walking us through the experience. Lets see more. Try another mission in the TF model with tip tanks. Label the video, "TF-104 Pilot Takes Student For First Flight". Select a Canadian Air Force livery if there is one. We can't have viewers thinking the 104 is a dog! Cheers.

[@haedubabaganush]

Thanks for your comments, saved me the trouble. What years was your dad in? I flew it in the late 60's-early 70's and your observations are correct. The G model that the RCAF flew had the bigger and more powerful Orenda engines and didn't have the gun, but more fuel added, and they also strengthened the airframe. Yeah, after seeing this, albeit wonderfully done video by johnathan, the modelling is not right. I've had it going at 780 kts indicated at very low level a few feet off the ground, and we did intercept practice up to 2M at FL55 when starting at .9 M at FL35 and reaching 2M turning and climbing to that level in under 3 minutes. Above 1M, if you plugged in full burner, you would still feel the kick of acceleration....one of the few aircraft that had that feel to it. The first time I had the front seat of the D, the IP did a full re-heat unrestricted climb...it took your breath away and we were up to 40K feet in no time as you pointed out...and yeah, with tip tanks...which were about 3/4 drained when climbing like that to that altitude :-) It was such a great aircraft...very stable at low altitude and throughout it's flight range...as long as you didn't fly it slow. I can tell you, it didn't like going slow....which I'm sure your dad told you. Cheers.

[@knightonwarbeck1969]

@@haedubabaganush Hello. My father was Captain Barry Krall (ret. Col), Class of 69/70. Flew 104 demo summers of 70, 71 and then home the summer of 72 for my birth. Then off to Venezuela for 6 months with 2 other Captains for the CF-5 deal. Name ring a bell? When at S.H.A.P.E our sponsors were the Simpsons with Rae being a CF-104 Test Pilot. I connected with Rae about a year ago. Wally Stone was another friend of dad's. He flew with the Snowbirds and the 101 as did Ernie Poole (101 and 106).

[@tk64681]

As much as I wanted to get the F-104 and play the music from The Right Stuff I’m having second thoughts. Sounds like MSFS can’t handle the F-104.

[@Harald787]

Fantastic fighter, great video. The Starfighter always brings back a lot of memories. When I was young I visited Leuwarden and Volkel Airbase in the Netherlands a lot of times and the starfighter impressed every time. The sound, the speed and the looks, all marvelous. During one visit at Volkel Airbase they simulated a base attack with about 30 starfighters, best "spotters" memorie I have, it was awesome. When it came out for MSFS2020 it was an immediate buy from the Orbix store, such fun to fly. Greetings from the Netherlands.

[@jonbeckett]

Cheers :)

[@845SiM]

I wish I had your work ethic, literally a video in the works at all times! I salute you, I manage to get one live stream done a week. Great content keep them coming.

[@jonbeckett]

Heh - they are almost always single take, first time every time lol. Which is why mistakes often happen on the more complicated aircraft (I'm terrible at multi-tasking).

[@Jon-es-i6o]

Your father must have been the best of the best. As the F-104 was tricky, especially on take-off due to its short wing span. It needed miles of runway to get lift from its short stubby wings. It was really a missile with a man in it. I salute the F-104 pilots like your father.🫡👍🏻

[@xeeded]

True that the flight manuals show problems going out to 3+ miles (18000 ft), but modest density altitudes and loadouts on those little razor blades covered a lot of scenarios on 10000 ft runways, with some going as short as 1500 ft! Full burner and blown flaps for the win.

[@roberthemingway7691]

Just picked this up for the X box series S. Love the jet and the vintage timeframe, can you help me how do you get the tip tanks? I’ve tried varying all the weights in the fuel but I can’t seem to bring up the visuals for the tip tanks. Help me Obi-Wan!!

[@dillank3240]

I'm probably too late, but you have to pull up the kneeboard. There is a slot under the throttle on the left. It looks like it could hold a brochure. Click on that. The option is in there.

[@roberthemingway7691]

@@dillank3240 Thankyou !!!!

[@MrPeterhemm]

"Gently climb" means 6,000 fpm! Love it! Thanks for the great flight!

[@jonbeckett]

Yep - the Starfighter is a bit of a beast :)

[@simonandersson824]

I livery on this plane is for the F-104G used for filming the NF-104A scenes in "The right stuff" , it was later exported to Taiwan were it was lost in an mishap late 80s.

[@Faye-9896]

This just came to xbox i am SO excited to fly this ive had googly eyes for this every since i first saw it on msfs

[@joncoughlin_dev]

Great video. Just bought this module and did a test flight last night. It's so cool :)

[@Karlideeengs]

Amazing video, love it. Cheers mate

[@jonbeckett]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@starkiller3583]

I love your videos! Keep up the great content!

[@jonbeckett]

Thanks so much!

[@567davefair]

I was able to sit in the cockpit of a F-104J at the Hamamatsu Air Park Museum in Shizoka Japan and boy was it a tight fit. They had the General Electric J79 engine beside it and the thing is huge, seems they just attached wings, nose and tail to it.

[@jonbeckett]

Awesome :)

[@stefanomastracco5189]

Bravooo ! Cantante italiano sottovalutato. Spero arrivi presto il tuo momento 😮😮

[@andresteeg]

Very nice video and exercise, Jonathan. Flown within the envelope, initial cruise speed of M0.9 nicely simulated, (I just missed the needle shiverings when going super- and subsonic ;-)). Temperature management required careful flight planning indeed (e.g.: AP config, acceleration time, distances, increase in fuel burned, density altitude, etc.) Thanks for sharing, much appreciated.

[@jonbeckett]

You're welcome - not so sure it really is that realistic though - some F104 experts have commented along the way - saying you should be able to go supersonic in level flight without too much problem.

[@andresteeg]

​@@jonbeckett She was indeed able to -theoretically- fly supersonic at low level. In particular at higher density altitudes in summer. 750kts equaled about M1 then at very low level. However, in Germany supersonic was forbidden below 15TFT anyway, better 30 - to keep all windows in their frames down below.

[@conlethbyrne4809]

Yep, that's a difficult plane to fly. Nice job flying with soft landing, Slainte ❤🎉 Johanthan.🎉

[@jonbeckett]

You're welcome :)

[@Lazengogh]

is the afterburner engaged with a separate button or just by using the throttle lever to the max?

[@Thunder_6278]

Is this 104 cockpit from the early 60's? Did the software people visit an original 104 at a museum.

[@jonbeckett]

I imagine so - that's how most research happens.

[@jakeplissken]

Great explanation, I was going to make my own video about the Snake profile, transonic drag and mach 2 flight in the Starfighter but now I can just direct folks to yours. I think much of the negative reception towards this model stems from the fact that it doesn't match the common expectation of being able to firewall it straight to mach 2 and beyond.

[@jonbeckett]

Yep. Once you figure it out, it's pretty straightforward.

[@einherz]

radar exe file wasn't add to new version, but you can e-mail to the guys, and they will sent you the link with that file... so actually radar still working, just need some conversation with devs

[@jamesnapier3802]

The aircraft designed to cruise at Mach 3.2 was the iconic SR-71.

[@sumbat1538]

what button did you use to engage/disengage nose wheel steering?

[@jonbeckett]

I can't remember :) You can map most things to whatever you want in the simulator.

[@madbager1]

Absolutely love this plane! Although I do wish they would put a Garmin GPS and upgrade the cockpit to current flight conditions and maybe the Ferrari paint job 🙏

[@dillank3240]

It's an interesting aircraft. Thanks!

[@jonbeckett]

Cheers :)

[@dillank3240]

Now that I have bought this, I have to thank you for the incredibly useful video!

[@ollyk22]

Great video, I hope they sort the charactoristics out to be more like the zipper! Would love to pop over to Florida and watch the flying 104's do their stuff too! What charts are you referring to in this sim?

[@jonbeckett]

LittleNavMap

[@Marie579]

Have you ever attempted to carry out yeagers flight and actually recover and land it ?

[@jonbeckett]

I don't think the physics modelling is accurate enough to replicate Yeager's "mishap" :)

[@ThijsF28]

I just got the TF 104 on Xbox via the ingame marketplace, do you have a idea on how to toggle the kneeboard via a xbox controller?

[@jonbeckett]

No idea - sorry

[@birgerkagan6087]

Skin friction drag decreases as you pass M1.0? and start rotate at 150 KIAS? What version of the 104 supplied those figures? It certainly is not the 104G "Slow light" comes on when T2 approaches 120°C and has nothing to do with a limit on the use of afterburner

[@jonbeckett]

Good feedback - thankyou. Maybe I should have said "start to apply back pressure at 150 knots" - because within a couple of seconds you're doing 200 :)

[@birgerkagan6087]

@@jonbeckett It is many years ago I flew the thing (104G version) but my recollection tells me that we rotated at 180 KIAS from the -5° to +5° and we would become airborne at 205 KIAS approx. We used the same procedure irregardless of configuration (tip less or with tip tanks). If this is the same or different for other versions I don't know. The earliest versions did not have the J-79 engine/afterburner combination we had in the G version so that alone would indicate differencies

[@spatialpro]

Many thanks for this video 👍 On a related note, are the blown flaps modelled (i.e. aerodynamically), together with correct engine bleed (rather than just coding in an extra, artificial, flap area, to estimate the effect of blowing)? Does one have to maintain a threshold RPM to maintain bleed air and therefore air blown over the flaps?

[@jonbeckett]

Yes - it does look like they have tried to model it appropriately. If you drop much below 85% RPM (I think it is?) you sink like a proverbial brick.

[@spatialpro]

@@jonbeckett Is there a gauge indicating air pressure (e.g. PSI) bled to the flaps? It is interesting to hear the sink rate dramatically increases below a certain RPM, but depending on the airspeed and other conditions, if the bleed air pressure were to fall below a critical number she should technically stall right away... which I imagine in a Starfighter would be anything but gentle (i.e. more than simply increased sink rate).

[@jonbeckett]

@@spatialpro yeah - it's obviously not a full simulation - but given the sim now supports fluid dynamics, I wonder if they might ever update this plane to take that into account ?

[@spatialpro]

@@jonbeckett Indeed. I'm thinking it'd be interesting to turn on the airflow indicator thingies in the sim.

[@jamesrothwell8693]

Have you ever explored any of the modules in DCS World?

[@jonbeckett]

Of course :) I have been wondering about recording some DCS videos :)

[@jamesrothwell8693]

@@jonbeckett some F14 RIO footage might be quite interesting for the channel, the radar is quite well modeled.

[@RobertGeux]

Great video Jonathan! What product was this? Sim Skunk Work probably, but on Simmarket I found 2 different products (a TF-104G & an FRF-104G) and the difference is a mystery to me. Same developer, sort of the same description but completely different version numbering etc. What am I missing?

[@jonbeckett]

Get it from JustFlight - it's half the price. I have no idea what SimMarket have done with it.

[@RobertGeux]

Thanks Jonathan. Just found out that JustFlight also has two versions of this plane from the same developer. I will contact Sim Skunk Works to clarify. Keep up the entertaining video’s!! 👍

[@RobertGeux]

Developer responded almost immediately, on a Sunday. 👌 The more expensive TF-104 is the two-seater trainer version. The cheaper FRF-104 is the single-seat version.

[@jonbeckett]

@@RobertGeux Oh yes - I forgot about that.

[@7ranjha]

How do you get this please.

[@jonbeckett]

Buy it from JustFlight.

[@C-141B_FE]

Figured you'd pull a Chuck Yeager move from "The Right Stuff". Maybe in the next video? 🍻

[@jonbeckett]

What - bash my head on the canopy, start a fire, and get burned horribly on the way down ? :)

[@OrionHunter-g1r]

Fighting 69, the Training Squadron for the german pilots in the fantastic Starfighter!

[@glitchyhitchy1811]

basically a rocket with wings !

[@jonbeckett]

Or a gas turbine with wings :)

[@mikecoffee100]

noo am not purchasing this nooo but a good video just the same :) oh I also Enjoyed today's flight over Germany and the historic signifagnance of it

[@jonbeckett]

It was good fun, wasn't it.

[@mikecoffee100]

@@jonbeckett and I luvv the twin otter

[@stefanblackadder5236]

I would buy this instantly for Xbox.

[@DcsDux]

Our German Luftwaffe lost 292 of 916 F104s and 116 pilots between 1961 and 1989. Hence it's known as "the Widowmaker" here.

[@jonbeckett]

Yep - as far a I understand, many of them were because the Luftwaffe tried to turn it into a multi-role aircraft - which caused it to become much less forgiving to fly.

[@dukeford]

@@jonbeckett The German initial accident and loss rates were high because they put a lot of 300 hour pilots in the airplane + indifferent maintenance + lack of proficiency hours. Other users (Canadians, Dutch & Belgians for example) had lower accident rates.

[@Scarebus_Driver]

Mate the 250kt restriction is for civil aircraft only…Military aircraft have no such restriction unless operating into a civilian airport with that restriction.l

[@ricardograde5134]

That just can’t be… so difficult to cross M1…????

[@techstepman]

nope no weapons on this one. No matter where you buy it. The dev said thats not an option m not now and not in the future.

[@jonbeckett]

If you want to blow stuff up, go to DCS :)

[@FallenPhoenix86]

Which is downright bloody strange since they were happy enough to put weapons on it for the FSX and P3d versions.

[@techstepman]

@@jonbeckett i didnt say anything about blowing up stuff. I already have DCS...

[@wollaminfaetter]

Cockpit temp not functional, that's disappointing 😆

[@jonbeckett]

Hah :)

[@MRWIRUPONGSUKARUJI]

เมื่อก่อนประจำการอยู่กองทัพอากาศบ้านเราหนิ

[@rcpilot9963]

Military aircrafts in general aviation sim? for me a little pointless. DCS is way to go.

[@Topper_Harley68]

Same here, i dont get it. Same goes when it comes to civil aircraft in DCS.

[@FallenPhoenix86]

FS has never been a GA sim, its been a whatever you you want to fly sim... and since military aircraft spend 99.9999% of their time NOT blowing things up.