Exploring Tesla Powerwall and home batteries - worth it?

Exploring Tesla Powerwall and home batteries - worth it? Head to www.squarespac... to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code MATTFERRELL. I just got a Tesla Powerwall ... well, more like I've got a Tesla Powerwall ready to be installed. But with home batteries like this being so expensive, why would anyone want one? It goes beyond a simple "return on investment" discussion. In fact, there's some really interesting programs that are launching right now that could help drive adoption. So let's get into it.
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[@aidancameron9203]

Had my Tesla Powerwall 2 here in Australia since July 2018. 9000kWh from the Powerwall and 5500kWh exported back to the grid. Has saved me over $2500 and made me over $500. 9 major power outages that I have never noticed as the house just keeps running. Will break even in its warranty period. Excellent App. Have no regrets.

[@shaunryan6]

Why the power outages? That would be the fault of your government's green policies! No nuclear power stations? ?

[@aidancameron9203]

@@shaunryan6 Cyclones

[@shaunryan6]

@@aidancameron9203 Natural disaster combined with green policy disaster. then?

[@keptinkaos6384]

@@shaunryan6 cyclones in the nth are almost every year numpty and the power goes down because of the mostly old 1960's above-ground infrastructure ut the water goes out to

[@seniordockman2946]

@@shaunryan6 Green energy paired with energy storage would eliminate power outages if the grid is adequate. Green is great when paired with storage.

[@UndecidedMF]

So what do you think of home batteries like this? If you liked this video, be sure to check out my video Exploring solar panel efficiency breakthroughs in 2020 kzbin.info/www/bejne/aKasgJh-eLSlY5I

[@garethdesborough7960]

Essential equipment - still too expensive. A Tesla Powerwall is around £10k installed in the UK. A Powerwall system including 5.8kWp PV system was recently quoted to me by Tesla (and "partner" for the PV) at £21k, equating to a 15 YEAR payback period. Even with Octopus Energy (a UK renewable energy supplier) fronting Tesla Autobidder for eligible buyers of an "All Tesla" system (including a Tesla vehicle) it's still not economically attractive in a reasonable timescale, i.e. less than 10 years. People move house a LOT here in the UK, and the value would NOT transfer to the sale price of the house but perhaps help it to sell in a tough market. Economies of scale price reductions and stronger government subsidies are required because the "micro-grid" grid-support system is the easiest and best way to eliminate expensive, dirty peaker plants in the UK. But, right now, most consumers who aren't sloshing around in spare cash and looking for another hobby project won't commit at those prices. £11-£14k and I'm in. Guess I'll wait...

[@markplott4820]

UNDECIDED - there should be a NATIONAL mandate to require SOLAR + Home battery in ALL NEW Home construction. as well as offer FEDERAL, State, County , City and UTILITY incentives for EXISTING Homes to be Retrofitted for SOLAR + Home battery.

[@LBox0]

@@garethdesborough7960 Why wouldn't it bump the value of the house? A quick google shows a number of figures that may be arbitrary sales lures, but I see no articles from financial websites, news outlets or solar proponent websites that state there is no value added. Most state a bump of 3-4%, or a flat value per KW/h generated. Is there something specific about the UK, or is the initial investment the hurdle?

[@jameseccleson9483]

I have a BYD Mini ES battery and I am happy with it. it was installed 4 years ago so things have come on and I am going to look into the possibility of adding one of the new Battery Boxes from BYD to the system if that can be done?

[@garethdesborough7960]

Puna Tannehill because it simply doesn’t. Spend £21k on a system then advertise your property at market rate plus £21k the next year. Good luck.

[@joseaiartonsoaresdearaujoj4110]

Just completed the break-in period and so far the unit is operating perfectly kzbin.infoUgkxOTeIs0vv4_9B5hsmnLsk9r930uDQLu_Y . I was amazed by just how quiet this little guy is. I kept having to walk down the driveway to the generator to make sure it was still running. In fact, the most annoying noise coming from the set-up is a high-pitched chirping coming from the pressure regulator on the propane line. I suppose it's possible my other propane-powered generator's pressure regulator is making the same noise, but the generator itself is so loud I've never noticed it. Build quality so far is excellent. My only nit is the service panel is a little tricky to remove. I feel like I might break off one of the plastic tabs when bending it back. I probably just need to work out the technique, so will not hold it against Champion.Next week I intend to fully load the unit to charge a large battery pack and will update this review if there's any problem (3000W continuous load vs a rated 3100W capacity while using propane). Absent any trouble there, I'm 100% pleased with this purchase.

[@virgilwhetsel5289]

Our powerwall cut our July electric bill to $20!! Compare that to last years bill of $122.00. We have a 7.2 KW solar array and one powerwall. My August bill went to $49.00 compared to $140.00 last year but we are charging our new Model Y on the system since July 30th. Haven't bought any gasoline since then either. Now to see what happens over the winter months.

[@eubikedude]

An oven is likely a bad example as once it's up to temperature it doesn't run the power continuously and just trips on and off to keep the set temperature. A hair dryer might be a better example. ;)

[@Kabbinj]

that.. depends on the stove... an induction stove (unless its super fancy) will just run at the wattage you set, regardless of how warm the pan gets, since it has no way of measuring it.

[@eubikedude]

@@Kabbinj I don't think so, our induction hob definitely trips on and off and it's nothing too fancy, you can hear it doing it. But even if that is the case for a stove/hob, if an oven ran at x power (like the suggested 1,000W) all the time the temperature would continue to increase given it's an enclosed and insulated space, so to keep the set temperature it must trip off and on.

[@pilotavery]

Yeah but to get it up to temperature it takes a few minutes which is still continuous

[@mondotv4216]

Not a bad example - because when the oven element does turn on, if it happens to be at the same time the aircon is on it will still exceed the max power of the inverter inside the Powerwall. Of course if it's a gas oven...

[@KK-up3pq]

Only snowflakes bake with the door closed

[@hyperdrivee7922]

Looking forward to witness your experience with this. Particularly appreciated the comparisons of other batteries. This is the most comprehensive comparison I’ve found. I had no idea that Tesla took a cut for “managing & dispatching “

[@CarolColeLewis]

As a solar consultant, if you are thinking about getting a battery, I recommend doing it at the same time as you install solar. It reduces the cost of the installation, and many installers won’t “retrofit”. Plus, if your system is financed or leased, you may not be able to add a battery later. (Love your videos, Matt!)

[@douglasdunn7267]

I've had battery backup here in Montana for years. I just replaced the AGM cells as the older cells had aged out and lost capacity. The system is charge by the grid and will offer backup to particular loads during an outage. I do not sell energy back to the grid, as our local REA dosent have a program to deal with it. We also have a backup genset that we can run during extended outages to run our refer and furnace in colder months, plus recharge the plant. But, the batteries do a good job of backup for small loads and backup heat. The plant total capacity is 1200 AH, and AGM cells. Thanks for the great vids and information!!!

[@johnreynolds6074]

Thank you, this was excellent information and very well presented. I look forward to more videos on your experience with the Powerwall.

[@UndecidedMF]

Thanks, John ... glad you liked it.

[@andinbriwel1092]

Great information, and laid out in a way that explains it well. I’ve been looking into exactly this - installing batteries and inverters that would charge during “super off peak” hours, then run the house off the batteries during the rest of the day. The only thing I’m not sure about is whether it’s actually a net reduction in carbon output per KWh, when factoring in the manufacturing of the battery cells, the assemblies, and the solar panels. Still, for cost savings and reduction of brown/black outs, it’s definitely a win.

[@robertbrigham1620]

I am a big fan of this technology. I Just installed a SunFusion off-grid system here in rural northern San Diego County. 18kWh of Lithium-Iron-Phosphate storage (warrantied for 25 years!) accessed through an Outback 8kW inverter. Much more power than my home needs, but my Chevy Bolt gobbles up a lot of it. I love this system. It kept me cool through two periods of (rolling) black this past weekend when the temperature hit over 110F two days in a row (not normal for here only 20 miles from the ocean).

[@thesolarenergychannel]

Here are three great alternatives to the Tesla Powerwall -> kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZmKbaJVrrNaYh8U

[@emilymalinowski5027]

NEVER have I hit the bell for a KZbinr, but you have saved me COUNTLESS hours of research and analysis for a passive-inspired house my university is designing! Thank you so much for this valuable content!

[@JoshGrossman]

Great video! I would love to see a one year later breakdown of how much the power wall saves you and how you used it!

[@UndecidedMF]

Thanks! And will do.

[@PlaidZoomer]

Ben Sullins On KZbin has two great videos on that

[@zAlaska]

Wrong. Depends on the state regulations, not the promotional that ignore your circumstance. Talk to you grid operator before deciding. Results will vary greatly depending on the power regulations where you use it from total loss of ROI to a possible profit after 20 years. Buy more panels and a Honda Generator for emergency instead of the battery, my experience. Sign me out as the big looser on that $6,500 investment that does not create power.

[@andersyuran7725]

Living in Cyprus we have 9 months only sun and a minumum of 320 sunny days. I will install a sonnen eco big enough to cover my usage during no production. Also we will be net metering so we will deliver power to the grid most of the time. We use a lot less of kwh per day than US homes, about 500 kwh per month. We use ac 9 month per year and have infrared panel heating for the cold months. We have never minus degrees.

[@antserstar]

I also live in Cyprus and will install Tesla Powerwall, not Sonnen because of software and I already own Tesla car.

[@UndecidedMF]

Thanks for sharing! I’m jealous ... Cyprus is beautiful. Sounds like you’re going to have a great PV and battery system set up.

[@vtorsi610]

That is about 1/2 the power of an average USA home. We do have many all electric homes. Homes in the USA can experience a huge range, up to +120F / +50C and down to -70F / -60C

[@robsengahay5614]

We had our Powerwall installed last June (midwinter herein Queensland, Australia but we are still more than self- sufficient in power thanks to a 10kw/h solar array). Two big takeaways (which are rarely considered). When charging our Tesla during the day the battery steps in and helps out when the sun dips behind a passing cloud and output falls so we don’t draw from the grid. The other key element is that you see in real time how much power each appliance uses. Awareness makes you thrifty with power. Indeed it is a fun game trying not to use the grid (save for a 1kw/h per day which you cannot avoid). I am willing to bet that when I analyse our usage after one whole year we will have used a lot less energy in total post-Powerwall compared with the preceding 12 months.

[@denniss3980]

The irony here is the man Tesla was the father of the electric grid, but the company Tesla is bringing us Tom Edison’s vision of locally produced power eliminating the need for the grid

[@harsimranbansal5355]

Dennis S I wouldn’t say eliminating the need for a grid, we’ll still need one, but we won’t need a grid that crosses multiple states! It will be more localized!

[@davefroman4700]

Dont kid yourself. Edison's vision was to control ALL of those power stations for profit.

[@acmefixer1]

Thomas Edison's vision was making money; he was a very sharp businessman.

[@acmefixer1]

@@harsimranbansal5355 Said, "we won't need a grid that crosses multiple states..." That's a foolish statement. By distributing the grid over a large area, Billions can be saved by solar in the far west used to power the peak loads in the dark east. Not to mention the wind turbines in the midwest powering the rest of the country. The bigger the grid, the more renewables will benefit the country and lower the fossil fuel useage and cut CO2 emissions. That's why the fossil fuel companies are fighting the west and east connections in the US.

[@johntisbury]

We've had our Tesla Powerwall 2 installed since Dec 2018, I'm based in the UK. It's a great product and allows our home to be self-powered for more of the day once the sun has gone down. As you say they are expensive, but for me the benefits outweigh the initial cost. It is a longterm return on investment with many new opportunities to gain additional income by tying into connected solutions.

[@shaunryan6]

This is rather vague. No figures to back your comments up?

[@nafiulshelim6194]

you wasted your money, the powerwall isnt even going to last long enough for you to make your money back, and you havent helped the environment at all, the carbon emissions for your solar panels and battery would be higher than if you just had low carbon electricity supplier like EDF.

[@johntisbury]

@@nafiulshelim6194 a broad brush sweeping statement about my purchases. My complete installation will have paid for itself within the next 2.8 year, well within the guaranteed lifetime of the products. EDF, one of the big 6 in the UK from a recent Nov 2020 article "According to published complaints data, EDF Energy had one of the higher levels of complaints per 1,000 customers in the first half of 2019. It received 20 or more complaints per 1000 customers. Some energy firms received fewer that one complaint from the same number of customers. EDF's green energy comes from 8 nuclear energy plants and 35 wind farms. Nuclear energy is hardly a green alternative to burning fossil fuels as the disposal and decommissioning are never factored in and take hundreds of years to be safe. Not a long term solution for low carbon production.

[@johntisbury]

@@shaunryan6 I do have stats and figures to back up my statement. They are available on my own channel.

[@nafiulshelim6194]

@@johntisbury now I know you're a complete ignorant sheep. Nuclear is the cleanest form of energy, with the lowest usage of footprint, and lowest amount of waste, lowest deaths per terawatt. You are a a bloody fool, no wonder you paid for a powerwall, its people like you that are stopping us reaching our climate goals.

[@g0d5m15t4k3]

Thank you for "it goes beyond ROI". I got solar panels over a year ago and it wasn't about ROI. It was about reducing grid reliance in 2 ways: less pull from dirty electricity sources and the ability to have electric during outages. I couldn't afford to get a battery when I got the solar panels installed. My solar panels, new electric box, and inverter were $20k on their own! My panels are set up to charge batteries because I knew I'd want it in the future. I learned to do heavy electric usage during the most sunny days. So running the washer, dryer, dishwasher. I'm researching batteries now! Thank you for this video!

[@TheStevieb1234]

Have two Powerwall batteries installed in April 2021. They worked well until the summer and the A/C was used. Battery is always drained overnight. Had I known I would have added an additional battery. The batteries cannot keep up with an A/C unit. If grid goes down . Shut off A/C.

[@VagabondGFG]

I can't even imagine owning a house

[@basspig]

me either. I rent from the town 970 a month taxes.

[@Passionate_Potato]

Let the man dream and enjoy KZbin.

[@felixschrodinger7533]

@@dporrasxtremeLS3 because its interesting and if you learn something from the video its not a waste. Did you not just "waste" time by replying?

[@ENDOPRYSMyt]

Davil silince poopy head

[@renoallstate4573]

Learn a trade and you'll always have a job. Dont waste money on bad habits, unnecessary loans, going out... Then you will be able to own a house and even save mone money to someday retire, travel or just enjoy life. In general just be smart with your money and know everyone including/especially the banks are trying to get it from you...Living off of the government is a trap and a system that is very hard to get out of that I know all too well. Anyway that's my two cents lol hopefully y'all have a good life. ;-)

[@forrestolney6836]

I wish there was a renters solution like a saddlebag collector for the roof or a carport set up .

[@harsimranbansal5355]

Forrest Olney talk to your landlord and tell them about the ROI and benefits! They might just get one for their home as well as the rental!

[@coleenahartman1776]

I believe it should become mandatory, in stages with they lowest income housing in the front of the line. Let those who have been raking in the profits and providing substandard housing pick up the bill for a change and the families with few or no options benefit from the get go. Reduced energy costs equal a small amount of disposable income. A newer and more reliable vehicle perhaps, braces for a child, saving for college? Rest assured though a way will be found to keep all savings or profit with property owner. Certain things never change.

[@acmefixer1]

@Forrest Olney There are ways a renter can participate in renewables. You are agreeing to buy your electricity from renewable resources.

[@TheMaevian]

@@coleenahartman1776 that would just make the price of rent even higher, which would mean more homeless people

[@gextreme2381]

@@coleenahartman1776 Or we could just keep our hands to ourselves and out of someone else's pocket.

[@482jpsquared]

We did a dual Powerwall II install last month. We are members of the MA "demand response" program. We have a 14K solar array. As Matt says, there's a huge benefit to being able to go "off grid" while there's a power outage. Plus, with the demand response program, the batteries are completely paid off in about 5 years. So there's essentially zero cost to us, and we have a great "backup" generator to boot. Add to that the fact that we're doing our part to put coal fired plants out to pasture. A NG-powered generator would have cost us 7-10K installed. It was a no-brainer but we did to the analysis with our gray matter, and it made complete sense to us.

[@michaelchiasson1083]

Those installed generator prices from Angies List are certainly not from the San Francisco Bay Area. The least expensive published starting prices for a generator-based standby power system in Silicon Valley are almost $20k. Generators take hundreds of times as long to start working after an outage as a battery system (10-30 seconds for generators versus a few milliseconds for good battery systems). Then there's hundreds (or even thousands) of dollars per year for recommended generator maintenance. Add to that the poor relative reliability of just about any machine that has complex moving parts, then add repairs. Conclusion: Unless you need a lot of power during an outage and have no access to direct sunlight (for solar), generators make about as much sense as a gasoline-powered iPhone.

[@482jpsquared]

@@michaelchiasson1083 I agree! We did a gas generator on our last house and I looked back at our costs, and it was over $10K for a 20kW system installed.

[@JeffMackler]

We’re in MA and doing a similarly sized system. Are the payouts going to actually cover the cost as anticipated? Have you received them yet?

[@dallassukerkin6878]

I'm a transmission and distribution SCADA engineer, so this topic is close to my heart :D. It's a rapidly evolving situation, as with all things at the leading edge of a technological change, and one thing to keep an eye on are liquid metal batteries. These are designed from the ground up for the sort of usage being talked about here when it comes to storing renewable electricity generation for when it is actually needed. If the costs come down (and they will if their pilot scheme performs as advertised) then Tesla will have to adapt to the new options in the field ... but they have a good track record about such so I have no fear that they will prosper.

[@Stone815]

I just accepted the solar panel and powerwall agreement 16.3kw! I'm so stoked!

[@dancingwithwolves.9631]

Cost ? Brand?

[@Stone815]

@@dancingwithwolves.9631 Tesla for both solar and powerwall. They got me with a free fast charger installation promo for my model 3.

[@offgridselfteliant]

Idiot!

[@marktreen1879]

I'd love a resource that tracked the benefits of installing a battery down to the state level.

[@zAlaska]

Exactly. My comment above. I lost big time. Buy more panels and a Honda generator the better deal in my Alaska regulated market.

[@thomasjacques5286]

Here in IL we have some great incentives, so I'm adding two PW2s to my existing Ehphase PV system (AC coupled), installed for $15K. I'm doing it not to SAVE or MAKE money, I'm doing it to keep my PV system operating during an outage, provide Whole House backup and keep my family safe and comfortable during an outage. .

[@GaryReiber]

Our 4.5 KW GAF System was installed as part of the roof rather than an add on over the top. The total cost was less than some of the higher bid for just the roof. Total installation was less than some roofing bids. Our utility company has a couple of constant charges so we can never get "zero" utility bill, but it produces more in the summer than we use. In western Oregon nnot likely it will ever pay for the total bill but does cut expenses. I'm glad we have it.

[@cardcounter21]

I'll buy into this when Powerwall 5 is announced!

[@markumbers5362]

Great work Matt. So many great storage solutions coming through.

[@whodahellru8124]

The areas in which I’d like to live doesn’t offer natural gas as I’d like to have a backup generator but it really wouldn’t be practical without a fuel source. For a rural area my thoughts were a powerwall with a smaller propane generator to supplement/charge the powerwall. The generator could provide 100% of its power back into the powerwall instead of wasting fuel running at a _load RPM_ in case you need the power to turn on the stove. I do enjoy the convenience of a back up generator, but having them running at a constant high rpm for consistent power production seems very inefficient. I would also imagine the power coming out of the powerwall would be clean and uniform and you wouldn’t have to worry about power surges.

[@billyg8614]

My spouse & I have 2 X Tesla 2 batteries plus 6.5 kw photovoltaic system. As of December 31, we are approximately 90% off the grid. Because we took advantage of state/federal incentives, by the end of 2022 the entire system will have paid for itself. Three years in a row, we received ≈ $225 back from the local utility. Well worth it.

[@nigelcharles511]

Lithium Ion batteries are a very expensive way of providing energy storage at home. Their main advantages are small size and light weight neither of which are relavent for house energy storage. $10,000 for about 14kwh is very expensive. At the moment I am using 48kwh of lead acid batteries off-grid at a cost of about $5500. Sure for long life it is not good to discharge lead acid batteries below 50% but even if you then assume a capacity of 24kwh it is still good value. Lithium ion batteries don't like going below 20% charge so their usable capacity has limitations as well. In conjunction with 11kw of solar I use the energy to charge my EV. Most of my EV running is coming from the sun and I rarely need to resort to grid power. Charging at 7kw over a few hours every 3 days means that the contribution provided by the batteries is easily recovered between charges even when due to limited solar the batteries have to make a major initial contribution.

[@billkiele5819]

Nigel: Good real-life case. What has been your experience regarding recharging the batteries, in terms of durability, over time? The official tests suggest 600 recharges, following Lead-Acid rules, before a battery would need replacement LiFePO(4) can do duty cycles in the 2000-range, perhaps more. And with the million-mile batteries coming out soon, duty cycles of 8000 are anticipated. If you're getting around 1000 cycles (because you're careful), I could see the attractiveness in such a system. Final question: what temperature zone is your house in? (Using the gardening zones for reference).

[@nigelcharles511]

@@billkiele5819 To maximise battery life, both lead-acid and lithium ion batteries need handling in sympathetic ways. In the case of lithium ion keeping the battery in the range 20-80% is recommended whereas for a lead acid battery not letting it drop below 50% is considered the answer. In both cases making sure that the battery is not cycled fully throughout its range will always result in better battery life. This is best achieved by making sure that the battery is significantly bigger in capacity than the demands made on it. If the same principle is applied to the solar panel array, less is asked of the battery during times where the battery and solar array work in parallel. Although it is early days for me I know that with careful handling a lead acid battery bank can be made to last for 15 years. I live in the UK (a temperate climate with variable solar performance). At the moment (September) my panels will give 10.5kw in bright sunlight and about 4kw in the moderate cloud cover which helps to offset the 7kw demand for EV charging. Most of my charging is done every 3-5 days during the day. Even with a mainly overcast day a 5 hour EV charge still left 66% in the lead acid battery which was fully recovered in 24 hours. Obviously as we go into winter this will become more of a challenge and depending on car use I may have to consider using some on grid power so as to avoid range anxiety. Running my EV fully from 80% charge to 20% charge gives about 180 miles of range using about 38kwh but usually it is possible to charge more frequently so that the EV only drops to about 40-50% charge. This is well within the capabilities of the 48kwh battery alone allowing overnight charging leaving the solar to recover the lead acid battery between charges. If a Tesla power wall is operated within the 20-80% recommended capacity (which is what I am using for my EV) then its usable capacity is only around 8kw which is not very useful. To make a fair comparison the same available capacity needs to be used. If we say this is 24kwh it would need 3 Tesla power walls costing about $30,000 whereas with lead acid it is only costing me about $5500. On that basis I could change the batteries three times as often and still save more than $10,000.

[@Sylvan_dB]

I don't know how you managed to acquire 48kwh of lead-acid storage for $5500. Used/surplus cells? I haven't seen those kind of prices for new cells delivered in the 25 years I've been watching. Two years ago I started research to replace my 10kwh bank and found I could go 5kwh of lithium (LiFePO4) for a similar price to 10kwh of high quality lead-acid once I factored in shipping. Then when I factored in projected lifespan the LiFePO4 were way cheaper for home built, and commercial were price competitive. Even when I compared to flooded GC-2 I could not make a case for lead-acid. That was two years ago. LiFePO4 is even cheaper now. Is lead?

[@nigelcharles511]

The lead acid batteries are brand new. I am UK based. The latest UK price is £4560 which equates to about $5900.

[@mikiethebikie]

Thanks Matt, this was a great presentation listing all the options: powerwalls are not simple. Thanks.

[@UndecidedMF]

Thanks, Mike!

[@F1Barry]

We have a Tesla Powerwall and haven't paid a bill in 3 years. In fact we are $1300 in credit! Payback is around 10 years. Better than you can get in a bank. When the power is out, our house is the only house in the area with power.

[@tobiaskrebs9362]

I live in Switzerland. I have about 8kW of PV installed. A Battery would simply not make any financial sense to us, since in Switzerland feed-in prices for electricity are less than half of the price for consumption as well as the price of electricity being fairly low to begin with. Further, there are no incentive programs, since the government is waaay to conservative on the solar front (however our grid is powered by over 60% hydro). We would never ever turn a profit. In winter the solar production drops so low that it is practically inexistant. That and the fact that we produce heat with a heatpump (that pulls about 7kW continuous in startup) a battery that could cover that load would be hugely expensive.(Maybe in the future when prices of batteries drop...)

[@maximthemagnificent]

Be interested to see the overall economics and limitations of heat pumps (both ground and air source), including hot water storage capability.

[@vtorsi610]

Air Heat Pump are just " OK". My 20 year old Geo-Thermal HVAC is way better for me ...

[@UndecidedMF]

👍

[@chettlewis]

heat pumps are great unless you have the cash to do geo thermal.........geo thermal is the most efficient. There are hybrid water tanks that use a heat pump. They use the surrounding air to heat the water. They are super efficient, but geo thermal is king.

[@KingShado69]

Nobody: My Brain at 3 AM: Wouldn't u be spending nothing if u put solar panels tied to a big battery on you house?

[@paula1758]

Thanks so much! I live in FL and trying to find info on batteries- especially outside of Tesla's firewall is NOT EASY! I appreciate you thorough review and comparison as well as education. FL gov't through PAC's and our power company is doing EVERYTHING they can to stop FL homeowners from taking advantage of solar- it's CRAZY! So I appreciate your straight forward info and the feedback from those below!!

[@Ratsterio_o]

I live in TN, and have 14.7kwh in solar panels, but this is one of the only states to have no net metering! I’ve been considering a battery wall, just so I don’t continue to “give “ the utility’s 40kwh a day for free.

[@pascalg.8772]

Hello Matt, thank you for this video and the clarity of your presentations in general. Could you let us know whyyou chose Tesla Powerwall among all potential suppliers (or maybe I missed that information)

[@UndecidedMF]

Appreciate that! Stay tuned ... I’ll be doing a video on my Tesla Powerwall (what, where, why, etc.). But until then, I got this as a referral reward from an earlier Tesla referral program. Even if I didn’t I most likely would have gone the route of the Powerwall, but a close second choice is Sonnen Eco.

[@Scubanut1000]

Undecided with Matt Ferrell 9

[@danwaterski]

Tesla has South Australia’s back. I got a Powerwall for $4250aud. I’m on Tesla’s power network. Energy locals. They installed a huge battery here

[@ianthebarefootwoodworker516]

How’d you get it that cheap?

[@danwaterski]

@@ianthebarefootwoodworker516 it was an offer they did last year

[@rjtumble]

I'm on a small coop for power. I think of it like a community owned credit union. Power is cheap, but they don't offer many extra services. As a result, they don't buy back power if you produce more than you consume with solar. I looked into it a few years ago and this issue made it not really worth it (batteries weren't as much of an option then). I'm now thinking if I build a new house, it will be solar with some kind of battery. It's pretty cool that the powerwall would recognize I'm producing more than I'm using and turn off the solar, thereby eliminating the issue of selling power to the grid.

[@bvbatcu1650]

We have a 22kW backup generator for our house that can handle a well and AC/Heat Pump. It is somewhat loud, has to run continuously and we had to get a new gas meter to handle the increased gas flow. This Spring we were without power for three days, and I got tired of listening to it. I would have preferred to have a small, quiet generator (about 2kW) and have that charge a battery that could handle large load fluctuations. And if the battery was full, it could turn itself off. I don't understand why the power company would give people money for using their batteries. If the payback time was quite short, they would probably just install their own batteries.

[@denovo09]

Thank you for this! The most informative video on solar I’ve found and helped clarify stuff I couldn’t find anywhere else.

[@WillN2Go1]

I live in California, I've twice tried to get advertised rebates for purchasing efficient appliances. No deal. While the utilities were still advertising the rebates, they told us, sorry but we've spent all the funds for this program. I've met a few people who were similarly lied to. I've yet to meet anyone who actually got the rebates. People who installed solar power systems in the 1990s found that as the numbers of houses with solar panels increased the utilities started to arbitrarily cut what they were willing to pay for power they captured from your panels. Bottomline? I don't trust anything the utilities say. I want a PowerWall, and am willing to pay $10k so I never have to look at another electric bill and wonder why they create bills that are intentionally impossible to understand. I'm still trying to figure out how when I was out of the country for long trips my electric bills were higher than after I returned home. Tesla's stated goal of creating a network of power suppliers in individual homes is terrific. I hope they succeed. Consumers might then actually have some leverage. If it was left to Pacific Electric, SoCal Edison, et al, I think we'd see production shifting to in home solar and battery packs while magically! the utilities continue to extract just as much money as they did when they provided 100% of the power (as well as half the wildfires and most of the fatalities). Watch for the moment when the laws change so that houses that leave the grid are still billed by the utilities.

[@alexpalacios3109]

What part of California do you live? The projects that I've been doing are mainly in Malibu, Agua Dulce, Santa Clarita and Topanga. So far a good chunk customers rebates have been approved. We've installed quite a few until the shortage of batteries is stalling our process.

[@WillN2Go1]

@@alexpalacios3109 Sorry. Maybe I wasn't clear. The rebates I was offered that never happened were from SCE and SoCal Gas and for appliances, not solar or powerwalls. Working with a contractor for Powerwalls and solar is probably better because you will have either gotten the rebates in the past or know they're smoke and game over. They can screw us consumers one by one forever. I wouldn't trust either as far as I can throw them. SCE refused to do anything about a tree that had grown into their wires and was sparking. They suggested I hire someone. In my request I mentioned that my gardener wouldn't do it and said the tree trimmers he knew wouldn't touch it either. This was a few years before PGE set fire to half the state and killed a few dozen people. Since then I've seen trucks all over trimming trees to clear lines. I talked with the state regulators who said the utilities got the laws changed so the regulators couldn't force them to do anything. I ended up out there with neoprene gloves a fiberglass pole, sparks flying as I sawed, branch hung up on the wires ... On a hillside....

[@cenozoicera5395]

My friend, we can provide batteries or solar panels，The price of the 30KWH solar system we provide is even as low as 10,000 US dollars.

[@cenozoicera5395]

@Jim Jim My friend, we can provide batteries or solar panels,The price of the 30KWH solar system we provide is even as low as 10,000 US dollars.

[@malely]

In the UK we are signing up to flexible tariff. A battery will allow us to purchase at 5p/Kw instead of the peak 13-17p/Kw. Such a big difference, charging our car becomes virtually free.

[@flybyairplane3528]

Matt, here is a good one for you , a woman in MIAMI-DADE FLORIDA, puts up a solar sys, cost US$. 64K her electric mill was $100/month,,after only $9./month, but at that time FPE gave out the ‘last’ Rebate SO HER costs went down, but the payback, is so poor she will have to replace cells before breaking even, FLORIDA, the rates are a pittancebofnwhet they are in NJ, We pay $0.23/kw pay $250.4/month electric & gas equal pay Cheers 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸

[@MythosGandaar]

Matt, would love to see you do a similar cost-return analysis on the environmental advantages of gray water recycling in the home. It's a fascinating subject, and conservative regulations in some states like here in FL make it very costly to install a legal system and reduce potential environmental benefits. I know it's a much bigger thing in Cali, so you might know a lot about the subject already

[@jeffnewcomb601]

Desalinization plants that also generate electricity are a far better idea than gray water recycling, especially in California. Sadly, we just like to talk about what the little guy give up to "save the world." Does anyone ever ask why it's always up to us as individuals to save the world, to end poverty, to end hunger, or to save the environment? Do what you can afford, and leave the guilt for someone else. If you want to drink your soapy dishwater, knock yourself out. Just not literally.

[@MythosGandaar]

@@jeffnewcomb601 I see your point, though your hyperbole doesn't really help the discussion. Obviously recycled gray water is not consumed. Yes, municipal scale water conservation is likely more impactful, but there is some efficiency lost when gray water is effectively treated the same as black water when it could be reused for other (APPROPRIATE) needs. If it were to be implemented on a large scale residentially, it would need to be highly subsidized.

[@jeffnewcomb601]

@@MythosGandaar The technology already exists to make gray water recycling unnecessary, and redistributing the wealth of nations (subsidizing) to pay for something as insignificant as gray water recycling is not wise. I'm very sorry to say so, but it's a feel good thing that has no real impact on the rest of the world, or even a medium sized community. Find a Musk or a Bezos to figure out how to do it and make money at it. Capitalism works a lot better than forcing someone else to live in poverty.

[@MythosGandaar]

@@jeffnewcomb601 That's fair. So desalination is the next big thing? That makes sense, we have a shit ton of salt water. I do see the point that it is so costly to set up on the home level that it just doesn't seem the best use of that wealth.

[@jeffnewcomb601]

@@MythosGandaar Not sure if it's the next big thing but it seems to make more sense. I'd like to find a way to get plastic out of the oceans, get fuel out of aircraft, and cars off of highways, but it'll take industry to do all that at a scale that matters. Politicians will never solve the problem so activism there is a waste of energy. Push industry instead. /2cents

[@scottmohrman]

I am hoping for vehicle to grid with my Cybertruck instead of getting a powerwall. I do not have solar yet because I will need to replace my roof soon.

[@UndecidedMF]

That will be epic if they include V2G with the Cybertruck. Especially considering the Cybertruck will have it’s own solar panel option.

[@superamazingexpertfantasti6593]

@@UndecidedMF using v2g with your cybertruck means it might be basically unusable or range limited in an emergency scenario. Off Grid and Grid Arbitrage are contradictory goals, and using a Cybertruck for grid arbitrage seems like a waste of a battery in most cases. The use case here is so obscure because people promoting batteries are selling all these ideas at once, (drive your truck around, have a backup during a long outage, profit from peak load energy arbitrage) even though consumers can only reasonably choose 1 of them.

[@lagflu]

@@superamazingexpertfantasti6593 or choose an in-between of two. If battery technology keeps advancing and your Cybertruck gets 800+ miles than you can set your "emergency" amount of power you desire. During hurricane season for me down in the south, I'd probably have it 70 to 100% reserved for emergency power. On the other hand, in the winter time, it'd be closer to 20% just so I can make it back and forth to work or something.

[@fredpinczuk7352]

@@superamazingexpertfantasti6593 Here are some basic maths. And based on the following estimates: Average size battery pack of Tesla Vehicle. 75kw/H* Average size of home battery system: 13 kw/H Average commute: 20 miles (National Average). Average EV consumption to travel the ~20 miles: Take on average 260kw/Mile, the consumption is ~6Kw one way, ~12Kw both ways (back and forth to work). That leaves you with roughly 84% left in your battery pack, minus 10% for energy transfer losses (AC-DC-AC), and another 15% for wanting to maintain above minimum charge. And that this leaves you with ~43 Kw/H of potential energy that can be used for your home or grid support. That's roughly 3X Tesla Dedicated Power wall units. And still leaves you with enough energy to drive an additional 20 miles if you happen to drain it down to the minimum charge. In addition to your 40 miles commute. This all goes back to range anxiety that were the main driving factor in 2013 for consumers wanting to buy an EV. Was unaware there was still people who still hold those fears. But frankly, my Tesla hits roughly those numbers on a daily basis. And this includes not only commuting, but additional trips to your a-typical errands (Grocery store trips ect). And I am watching my Model 3 with roughly 75% of its range capacity sitting on my driveway, and wanting to have V2G now as so I can have the luxury of withdrawn from the car and alleviate the current grid load at peak. I understand the "average" numbers don't work for all, but it should for roughly 65% of the population. Would like to see the math you came up with to support your argument for making V2G 'Unusable"? *Cybertruck average pack size is expected to be bigger, 100Kw/H being the smallest. Estimates are pointing to a 250kw/H pack for long range version. insideevs.com/news/348093/energy-consumption-epa-compared-may-2019/ insideevs.com/news/387046/tesla-cybertruck-analysis-battery-horsepower/

[@superamazingexpertfantasti6593]

@@fredpinczuk7352 To help me understand, please explain the end-to-end. when you and your spouse park a Model 3 and a Cybertruck in your garage at 5pm, the expectation is that those automobiles draw from your house's infrastructure. the idea that these vehicles perform their primary duty and then also fulfill a secondary responsibility is pure magic

[@tjs114]

It should be noted that the program you quoted for California, The Self-Generation Incentive Program has a lot of caveats to qualify for payment. Specifically, you have to be going into it to be a power generator, not just as residential backup. The "Commercial Storage Unit" must be "Completely discharged into the grid a minimum of 52 times per year" and you have to be in a service area which has a history of power loss due to service loss not related to wildfires or high winds. The San Joaquin Valley, where I live, has even more restrictions as they have received additional funding and really the only people that can qualify for the rebate are the cattle ranches, dairies and farmers living outside of city or town limit lines.

[@evlnte]

My 10.2 kWh system with 4 Powerwalls is pending approval, but I’m already impressed. During testing, we simulated full house backup by tripping an outage. The system kicks in quickly and reverts back to grid/solar within 5 minutes of detecting either. It still trips UPS’ and GFIs, but so do the frequent brownouts in my area. You don’t buy this system for ROI; more for a modern full home power backup. The real money is in places where Tesla’s Virtual Utility is authorized. Powerwalls owners get real coin for supporting the local smart grid. We need legislation in the U.S. to get this everywhere. Decentralized power is the way to go for a truly modern, stable electric grid.

[@0ooTheMAXXoo0]

Our electric company pays for 30% of a solar / battery installation's total cost. They do net metering but there is a limit how much money you can get paid back (you can net positive but only by some %). Utilities seem to want spread out generation and battery balancing...

[@vtorsi610]

@Steve - How much did your system cost ... $40,000 ?

[@TheAnticorporatist]

I had one I installed on my old house. Missed it last night when the power was at.

[@autohmae]

As someone who ran a datacenter, I know power outages can happen in multiple ways, we had at times 1 phase of the three-phases go out and this really crewed up any failover system. I wonder if something like a powerwall would handle that too.

[@johnd01]

@@autohmae Power Wall is a single-phase system.

[@autohmae]

@@johnd01 OK, thanks so it's a simpler product (not as broadly applicable) than I though.

[@johnd01]

@@autohmae It works for homes. It is not for large commercial use. Tesla has other systems for that. 13kWH would not do much for a commercial application.

[@autohmae]

@@johnd01 yeah, I didn't expect that either, but in lots of countries 3-phase into the house is normal.

[@zephyrerazortail5478]

This is so cool. I live in Greenland, so I'll probably never get one of these, but it's awesome to see.

[@AlexFlockhart]

Which is a shame, the areas that would probably need it the most are probably going to get it last. On the other hand it might become cheaper in the future.

[@HectorDiabolucus]

It’s a case of positives and negatives. The cost up front being the biggest negative plus you will be replacing the batts every 10 -15 years and you have to factor in excess capacity, for battery degradation and large starting currents for things like HVAC. The positives are that you are helping to make the grid more resilient, helping out the environment and you can sell back excess energy. And you get emergency power when needed. I still think you’ll need that emergency generator. The problem with the solar panels is that they are big and ugly and won’t survive hail storms and probably will make your roof leak. And then how do you replace your roof? The good news is that the solar panels will protect your roof from the hail.

[@WattsToFreedom]

JUST ORDERED TESLA SOLAR! 16kW system with 3 PowerWalls! Super excited! I’m a long-term share holder, and own a Model S P85+, so this purchase was inevitable!

[@richardneilson1188]

The California SGIP is not as straightforward as presented. 80% of the allocated monies are set aside for larger projects, primarily those projects in which the private investor owned utilities (think PG&E, SCE & SDG&E) are involved, usually with private sector partners. Of the remaining 20%, the focus is on residences in fire areas I & II. These are designated by CalFIre, with maps available online. Additional money for areas that meet blackout criteria, I think 2-3 blackouts in last 12 months, or such. There were concerns about low-income access, as monies originally set aside for low-income areas were not claimed. The low-income areas are defined by census tracts with particular profiles of income, language, transportation, education & pollution. Now, the California PUC guidelines are seeking non-profit partners to assist in pre-selected communities, primarily farm worker towns in the Central Valley. So, if you are in California, make sure you read the guidelines carefully. Also the reimbursement procedure would make Kafka smile.

[@buzzpedrotti5401]

Wow. The best thing in the video turns out to be a confusing regulatory morass, a Gordian knot. I guess it turns out PGE is good enough.

[@Mike__B]

Thanks for this info, as soon as as they said .85 to 1.00 per Wh I did the math on the 13.5kWh Tesla unit and was like... "Umm yes please!" but obviously not a big utility, nor in CalFire area, nor black out area... so I'm more likely screwed ontop of screwed.

[@JBoy340a]

I know it could not be that straight forward. We have 2 power walls and we don’t have a way to get of a rebate beyond the federal tax credit. The biggest benefit is not buying power from PG&E at up to 42 cents per Kwh

[@richardneilson1188]

@@JBoy340a Maybe arbitraging the rates from .15 kWh to .41 kWh is enough. I expect summer peak rates to approach $1.00 kWh in 5 years. We (SCE) had a 3% across the board increase effective Jan 2020. With current costs and liabilities due to fires and upgrades needed for infrastructure, SCE and (especially) PG&E can not make a profit. California appears to have a cost plus system with guaranteed profits for utilities.Those power walls will pay for themselves.

[@acmefixer1]

@@richardneilson1188 If the cost of electricity goes too high, it will give many people the incentive to install an off-grid system. The information is right here on KZbin, easy to put your own system in for a lot cheaper than having to pay for labor.

[@frankjones8302]

Awesome info Matt. So, informative! Too expensive for up here In Canada now but eventually I'll be looking to install one. For some reason I thought you lived in Rochester, NY.

[@UndecidedMF]

Thanks, Frank. I grew up in Rochester (my parents still live there), so I’m in that neck of the woods a lot.

[@navguy12]

I'm in Canada as well and want to install these within the next three years. I'm holding off for now, hoping there are proper incentives available by 2023.

[@rideshare8113]

@@navguy12 I live in Vancouver, and we are having an election here. Time will time if there is any tax breaks. Right now, I have a grid tie system. Also, I am looking at the Enphase system too.

[@navguy12]

@@rideshare8113 I really hope the feds come up with a federal tax credit scheme like the US has had, my friend in Michigan was able to get his rooftop solar system, his ground sourced heat pump system and his ev with the help of the tax credits.

[@Muppetkeeper]

Yesterday I built myself a spreadsheet model for a business plan to move from gas central heating to a heat pump, and also included buying a battery into the model, your video is very well timed for me. My summation after all the figures are, 1. My average cost per kWh electricity would drop from 15p to 8.5p, it would drop more if I avoid the peak 3 hours. 2. Moving from gas to a heat pump would be cheaper with a battery, but more expensive without one. 4. My battery would have to last for 15 years to get payback, which I truly believe it will. 5. All of my figures were rounded to reduce the benefits, as my wife is a sceptical accountant, but even she agrees that the figure would be better, so probably 12 year pay back. I currently have 4kw solar, I haven’t had a power cut in 10+ years, my boiler and radiators are end of life, and I can get a UK grant to cover almost all the difference in cost between a gas boiler and a heat pump. I’m assuming £8,000 for an installed powerwall 2, assuming that the heat pump is 3 COP for heat, and 2 COP for hot water. Also assuming £12,000 for heat pump plus replacement radiators, but a £7,000 rebate from the government. The electricity cost would drop as I would move to an agile half hour electricity tariff, from a fixed rate tariff, I would use my battery to charge during low prices, and use it during peaks. With my consumption I estimated that I would need to charge a single powerwall 3 times a day during the worst month of winter, but there are three distinct “cheap periods” during the day where that could be done. I would also shift my water heating to nighttime, and warm the house during the cheaper periods, or from the battery. In summary, this all works in the UK with the right house and a bit of investment.

[@billhill3526]

I suggest to not have a grid tie-in if you have a smart meter. They have an ability to fry your system, overload your batteries and burn down your house. It's better to have a manual transfer switch when the power goes out and a redundant system with you back up generator connected to it. DO NOT trust your utility company. You may also want to add an EMP protection device.

[@jamminersjams1178]

The beginning of the future.

[@ThePlayfarer]

Imagine owning a house. Dang.

[@ramade9040]

I own 3 £23 million luxury mansion, that’s how rich i am In my dream...😭✊🏼🤘🏼

[@unclejack41]

Getta fuwuin job soy-oy

[@adumberfling9959]

@@unclejack41 🤔 need money to buy house... Need job to make money... Need education to get job... Need money to get education. Meanwhile prices for both rise and wages haven't gone up in years and haven't kept up with inflation in decades unless you are the CEO you'll be paid 100s of times average employee's.... You could have 10 jobs and still barely afford to make it in this economy so fluff off with your get a job bull 💩. Here's a thought how bout we stop acting like what we have is the best we could possibly ever get and everyone is just lazy POS and instead we work to get an economic system that works for fuxs sakes! Or not whatevs ✌️

[@Mrwhoknows0]

This comment is a classic

[@monad_tcp]

I own 2. I can imagine owning the third, same thing isn't? (its easier to buy houses in small cities, but no, guy wants to live in big city, to be fair, big cities have more jobs, but also more competition, thing is saving for decades and not having any debt)

[@chrisyoutube4214]

We need Tesla Powerwall 3. At this time, it is simply not feasible for regular people, too expensive. We need around 30-40 KWh storage + 8 - 10 KWh solar system at a price of max 15 to 20k, then and only then it will be worth it as you'll be 100% independent and self sufficient. Basically we need a 50-60% discount

[@J3sus1sL0rd1]

This is thing of the future as we will needed for home use. When power-outage during most sunny day; your solar panels will shut down too, only without battery back up. Just not long ago; PG&E were max-out from power grids during the heatwave. More of home battery along with rooftop solar that will be big plusses. During over 100 degrees at 9PM, no solar during the calm nights, this means: No solar plus no wind power. The Bottom Line: Battery will come in during rotating black-out.

[@bijalpanwala]

I’ve had a powerwall for about a year and plan to add a 2nd PW.

[@UndecidedMF]

Nice!

[@mihajlolakicevic2631]

Could you share your experience and some analysis?

[@shuaige3360]

Could you explain us more your experience, and why you want to add a 2nd PW ?

[@bijalpanwala]

Shuai Ge I run on self power mode that I manage based on the weather to try to use as much stored power but if I see it will rain for the next few days I’ll change it to keep for example 70% in reserve for my sanity that I’ll have hours of back up if the grid goes down. By having 2 PW I can just use one for self power while keeping the 2nd for pure back up needs.

[@shuaige3360]

@@bijalpanwala Strange to hear so many people speaking about when the grid go down... I lived more than 25 years in France, and more than 20 years in China... and not once I got the grid down. I mean I already got electricity down because I pour too much power so I had to restart the electricity box... but never had the full area grid down with no way to restore electricity. Is USA a 3rd world country which can not even manage a proper power grid?

[@That_guy_Pip]

Now if they would make diy systems certifiable to go on grid for those same benefits, costs go down by almost half when you build those power walls yourself.....

[@Miweatherspotter1]

Use a sol-ark or a Schnider xw pro and hook up your diy battery for a full on grid with battery experience :)

[@That_guy_Pip]

@@Miweatherspotter1 kind of defeats the purpose of the "DIY system" I mentioned..... Don't get me wrong, they're both nice pieces of equipment. But I'd like to be able to build my own power wall (not too difficult) and have all the necessary parts available to connect it to the grid and be certified by the power company. They won't certify diy systems for the rebate programs where I live, but they'll let you dump the power to the grid.....

[@Miweatherspotter1]

@@That_guy_Pip maybe I don’t understand your definition of diy then, what’s your plan for an inverter in your diy powerwall? It makes sense to me that the power company wants some sort of line protection for there workers so mandating UL listed inverters is a safety thing, I would want the safety for my home knowing that my diy battery is a diy as I want but that the power output to the home is clean and pure

[@That_guy_Pip]

@@Miweatherspotter1 using a COTS inverter is fine, but building the power wall from scratch along with the bms wiring and whatnot is what I was getting at. You can get all of it online if you're resourceful enough.

[@Miweatherspotter1]

@@That_guy_Pip I have seen some of those diy power walls with 1000s of 18650 cells :) if you did that with a listed inverter why would the power company care about what battery type you use? Mine did not, they wanted to know the inverter info to verify it was safe for there grid but they never asked about the battery info.

[@kirkreyes3368]

Nothing is impossible when you have enough money. In Florida, there are a lot of companies offering this. Whether or not these corporations are trustworthy is the issue. The state is doing little or nothing to incentivize this because of the way that the state government is organized.

[@gordonlawrence1448]

Not quite the same thing but I have lighting, a home multimedia system and a small freezer all running off 24V. I designed the system for that and it cost less than $400/kWh. The plan is to go to at least 5kWh. I might then get an inverter type UPS to run my main freezer and fridge. On 1kWh the MMS Freezer and lighting will run for 16 hours.

[@Taxidermista_de_Phobos]

This damn question "worth it?" related to solar tech is becoming old really fast.

[@monad_tcp]

but not with wind, semiconductors follow the moore's law of doubling power and getting half as cheap. mechanical blowy thingies not

[@keeperMLT]

@@monad_tcp That is a fair point. Even at scale, wind turbine costs won't drop more than 50%. However, combined with load management batteries, their value could double. That would improve price competitiveness vs fossil fuels and increase adoption. You are correct, IMO, that solar will do most of the heavy lifting to save the planet until nuclear fusion or better nuclear fission plants arrive.

[@shuaige3360]

@@keeperMLT Looking forward for nuclear fusion and better fission plants... We will need a shit load of energy in the future (even more if we want to capture back some CO2 from atmosphere, and do shit load of fresh water from sea water for arid area).

[@Species-lj8wh]

But still a valid question in places where power costs are low. For me, living in Idaho power is between 7.5 and 9 cents per KWh. To get a system that covers 100% of my power needs, Solar and Batteries will be close to 30k with installation. That will take me 25 years just to break even. Idaho power already uses 75% "Green" power and by 2045 will be 100% Green. Mixture of Hydro, Solar, Wind, Geothermal and Biomass.

[@shuaige3360]

​@@Species-lj8wh French electric grid is already "carbon free" since 40 years (since 1980's)... since we use nuclear for 80% of the electricity and the rest is hydro and now solar and wind.... so... Idaho will just be 65 years behind France decarbonisation... 65 years... that is a long time. Plus the 2045 carbon free is a promise, might not happen.

[@flymoon1661]

1. battery pack only VS back up generator: I would pick the generator in a heart bit. Battery pack is more expensive (way more expensive) and it won't be able to start a central AC. $3k generator can run central AC AND refrigerator. Tesla's battery pack is not capable of handling that kind of load. When there's black-out, battery packs do not have any advantage over gas generators. Only the difference is the power source, stored power vs. gas. Since the 3k permanent generator is outside of the house, noise doesn't bother me either. 2. battery pack plus solar roof VS back up generator: Again, I will pick the generator. According to Tesla's budget estimate that I went through, it'll take 18 years to get my investment if I purchase solar roof and battery pack. 18 years.... that's really long time... and that's with assumption of no maint cost.... whoever makes solar system these days, it's not there yet. it's still a no-go system for me.

[@astrong1984]

Yeah... but if you live off grid, you can be like me. It was going to be $8500 to get power to my property. I spent $8200 on a 35kw battery bank ~3600 watts of solar, the inverter (nice schnieder electric 4400w) charge controller, BMS, and comm box (so when I am working on UT for work, I can check my solar in CO, and decide if the gen needs to turn on (which has yet to happen)). My system will power the AC during the peak summer months. I have had to run a generator 2x in the 2 years it’s been commissioned. (Once because I was not paying attention and let the ac go until 10pm and once during these fires (no sun 100* temps)). My point being, if people stopped looking at Tesla as the end all, be all, they may realize that solar is sustainable. And yeah, my maintenance is horrible on my batteries. I have to fill them once a quarter with about 1.5 gallons of distilled water. Costs like $1.65 and takes all of 27 mins.

[@flymoon1661]

@@astrong1984 there's always a risk of having solar panels to be damaged, inverter can go bad... and so on... I don't like complicated system. there are more parts that can fail. For the same reason, i don't like hybrid cars (more parts that can fail). Oh yeh, when it comes to all electric, which means much less parts than ICE cars, I'd love it. Anyways, long story short. I personally don't like complicated system just to be off the grid. Plus, I don't wanna stuck in one house for 15 years.

[@astrong1984]

Haha! Different strokes. I also am driving my third Prius... buy them at 100k sell them at 250k for $3-4K less than I bought them. Only thing I have ever replaced on any of them is the fan belt, brakes and tires (and oil ofc). Sure it could cost me if I get hit with softball sized hail, but homeowners insurance, am I right? Either way, my power bill every month is $0. But you’re right, it’s not for everyone. My only point was that the whole “Tesla is the best” mentality has made solar seem out of reach for so many folks :).

[@astrong1984]

And I would venture to guess, btw (unrelated), that my Prii have hailed more lumber than most trucks in the nearest major city to either you or I :P

[@flymoon1661]

@@astrong1984 Every year, I get a bill from insurance company for wind & hail coverage (on top of home owner's insurance). it hurts... Every time....

[@semsolar9273]

currently in Perth, WA.. the financial equation is based on locking in a fixed, lower cost/kWh for after hours energy. Though we are finding more commonly that home owners are more interested in the backup support feature it offers. Plenty of windy storms that take out power, with early morning power outages. Still not in the price bracket for most home owners, though as we have just seen a recent cut to feed-in tariffs, there will be a stronger uptake focusing on the financial incentive. Tesla batteries are BY FAR, in a league of their own. *From an installers point of view. Also being AC coupled, there's no interaction dramas that we see with DC coupled/hybrid systems.

[@unclerichard6729]

And in Oklahoma, the power company will charge you a significantly higher rate for your grid power if you have even a single solar panel. Regulations make it nearly impossible to connect your solar to the grid and it's illegal to completely disconnect from the grid.

[@lavrentichudakoff2519]

I'll be glad to pay $20k when they make a batterie the size of a phone book that will power my house for 20 years.

[@wlhgmk]

When power companies install mega batteries such as the one in the Hornsdale wind farm, there will no longer be any need to have a private battery at home. The power companies will be able to buy excess power from a home generation system at a reasonable price because they can then sell it on at spot prices and make a nice profit on the transaction. The question is, will they do this or will they have to be dragged kicking and screaming to the table and forced by governments to be reasonable. By the by, the Hornsdale experience strongly suggests that just owning a mega battery with no wind farm attached would be a profitable investment in most regimes since it would act as a peaker plant.

[@zaphodsbluecar9518]

I had a Powerwall 2 installed about eighteen months ago, not for any 'rational' economic reason - the battery will take around 8+ years to pay for itself - but to minimise my reliance on the grid. I also have a small (6KW) PVA on my roof and rather than export the excess power generated it goes into the Powerwall 2. Once that's fully charged, the excess goes into my EV. Anything after that 'earns' me 7¢ per KWh from the feed-in tariff. I'm hoping the price of home battery storage systems fall over the next five years or so as I will add a second - or if I build again, I'd like to go completely 'off-grid'... Oh, and you won't need a second battery to run an A/C & oven - both devices cycle once they're 'at temperature'.

[@piroswat4685]

Hi! Thanks for your com, but why would you go off-grid if not for rational reasons ?

[@sjcsystems]

I think the thing you are missing is that there is a lag in the power supplied by a battery. Look at the research on the EV Puzzle KZbin channel. He proved that if you are on grid with a fully charged battery and turn on your load, there will still be a draw from the grid, even though your battery could cover the draw.

[@bobbresnahan8397]

It is not the most efficient way to get to 100% renewables. It increases the complexity of the grid, costs as much a 4x the cost of grid storage, and is slow to install. We need to build out solar on the grid as fast as possible and as seamlessly as possible. The only valid argument in support of it is resiliency. And even there the argument has unacknowledged down-sides. Virtual power systems are ways for the utilities to slow, not speed, the transition to solar/wind/batteries.

[@vtorsi610]

Currently, it IS the most efficient way. Then, when you allow the Utility to MANAGE all of the PW2's, it decreases the complexity of grid

[@0ooTheMAXXoo0]

Lots of companies are already doing these micro grids working in a larger grid with great success. Tesla is used in hundreds of such grids for years already... The grid becomes way cheaper to run because you are load balancing down to every neighborhood, maybe half the houses are helping out... Normally, equipment breaks and has to be replaced all the time, in a grid without local battery balancing. Also, all kinds of equipment in people's homes get shortened life spans because the electricity always flows too weak or too strong, never smoothly balanced at the local level...

[@SweBeach2023]

What makes me suspicious of these products is the simple fact everyone seems to be agree battery storage for the grid is currently way too expensive to make sense. But if not making sense on the grid, why would it make sense for the end-user? The only explanation is grid capacity and taxes/subsidies. But the grid is already in place and taxes and subsidies is just redistribution of wealth.

[@clivemitchell3229]

One thing to note about the Powerwall 2 is, with it's inbuilt inverter, it's effectively an AC battery - AC in and AC out. The internal chemistry or DC voltage doesn't matter. So I guess a future Powerwall 3 with super-duper new battery chemistry would be able to plug straight into an existing system and work side-by-side with an existing Powerwall 2. A lot of other batteries out there run DC and may not be compatible with new batteries from the same manufacturer.

[@bernardthongvanh5613]

what happens in case of house fire? does those burn like crazy?

[@melclark3993]

Just had Tesla Powerwall2 installed last week with 9.5 kw of solar. All working well and generating 95%+ of home power requirements , plus exporting upto 20 Kwh to the grid. Tesla power app is great too. Location - Linconshire UK.

[@GroovyVideo2]

should mount PW higher above ground - water damage - in a garage mount high so car cant damage it easily - kind of obvious

[@chadpurser]

For locations like mine (southern Louisiana), it doesn't make financial sense. There are no programs, and our power is a low fixed rate all day ($0.10/kwh). One would be nice during hurricane season, but a gas generator is so much cheaper.

[@servant74]

Being in a TVA service area, they currently make no sense. No public or private money supporting adoption and 'cheap' electricity ($0.10/KWh for residential use with no time of use options) other than for personal emergency use. If there was even a base economic incentive (like high power during the day and cheap at night) I see it making good economic sense even without solar contribution. ... Personally I would love to be able to be independant off grid without requiring commercial power contribution, but a small lot in a city subdivision that has covenants against solar panels on the roof, it isn't going to happen.

[@johnd01]

A salesman told me that I could not use my EV rate to charge the battery for the first 2 years if I installed the Tesla battery. That would imply that after the first 2 years, I could. The person in charge of the solar program for my utility concluded that they had a rate structure set up so that If someone did use the EV rate to charge and the Peak rate to discharge, they would need to change the batteries shortly after they broke even. Questions: Can the battery be programmed to fully discharge from 5 to 8 PM? If I used my solar to fully charge at an off-peak time and emptied the battery into the grid at a 3 hour peak time, how much difference between off-peak and peak do I need to make the project worthwhile?

[@josephsanon3570]

Its really awesome to see content creators from Massachusetts. I am purchasing a tesla model 3 next week and all the youtubers seem to be from out in Cali and this video really shed light on how practical it is to purchase the battery packs and solar to help with your bill alot

[@Lumencraft-]

The permanent gas generator was also a cool idea I had not heard about.

[@MW_Builds]

The problem is the grid took his powerwall to 0. This is harsh on YOUR batteries, and the grid doesn't care. There needs to be a protection for batteries that can cause a slowdown of discharge, or even cut it completely. Good information. peace

[@clydewfranklin4388]

Please address the software issue between the power wall and the inverters. I picked up some of it early on in your presentation. When I have asked about battery back up I’m told right away that your solar system isn’t compatible with our battery because of software. Also batteries have to be in a controlled environment. They will not work when it’s minus 25 here in Iowa. What safety concerns are there with batteries indoors? Fire or emissions? I’m a novice at this and got my feet wet by having solar up and running this year in March. I have an 18 kw system on my roof. I had my system put together to have a generator backup at a later date, not thinking of battery backup because it’s so new. I see lots of growing issues yet.

[@michaelfink64]

I have had a Powerwall 2 and 15.4 kW roof top solar for 9 months. In that time, we have had 22 power outages totalling 4 hours, during which our important circuits (refrigerator, living room lights, TV, modem etc) were powered by the Powerwall. An important issue is that you need a switching system to cut off the panels and battery from the grid to keep it safe for the linesmen doing the repairs. Some batteries have this built in, but for the Powerwall, you will need a thing called the Tesla Gateway that serves this function. Otherwise, your lights will be off just like your neighbours. Solarquotes.com.au has a great comparison of different batteries as well as many other tips about going solar.

[@UndecidedMF]

Nice call out for the Powerwall. The Gateway is the brain that makes the whole thing self sustainable.

[@vtorsi610]

@@UndecidedMF You have to get every Critical Load appliance and/or outlet *re-wired* into a new Critical Loads Sub-Panel. Only the Critical Loads wired into the new sub-panel will be powered, during a blackout. A Power Wall 2 is way too small to power an entire ALL ELECTRIC home, especially if there is Central A/C.

[@michaelfink64]

@@vtorsi610 Yep, we didn't include the ACs, just the fridge and a few critical plugs and lights.

[@Trimtank]

It is shocking that Canada does not do more incentives for E cars and power cells with solar panels. Great videos.....thank you

[@christophersiano969]

If you don't have time shift ability where rates are lower at night or you are 100% off grid, a battery is a bad choice. You simply don't need it and it gives you nothing but power outage coverage. Why pay $10k for power outage when a generator for most homes will be under $3k. Oh, and that generator if given a little maintenance (2 quarts of oil a year is all I've done) and it's lasted nearly 20 years now. There isn't a battery solution made that will last that long without replacement.

[@emrusso4625]

Matt. You have just given me something else to add to my dream board. Some people think getting rich is all about consuming bigger self-centered toys. I am taking charge of my financial future in order to support sustainable, clean technologies. I thought I was stuck building my home solely based on lack of finances. If your WHY is big enough, a greater power than you, hears your heart💛 Thank you for this video. I've subscribed to your channel, liked this video, and will look into SquareSpace through your referral link as my way of thanking you for sharing your wisdom with EVERYONE! CommUnity.

[@herrknopf2685]

I, too, would like to see a follow up video once you’ve had the time to get used to the way the battery operates and interacts with your energy usage patterns.

[@cmdoggy24]

Just got off the phone with an electrician. He said our state incentives are almost non-existent unless you make below the median income of the County (those people aren’t buying Powerwalls anyhow so another hare-brained California idea). He also said the installed price is closer to $20,000 for 2 Powerwalls and Powerwalls don’t meet our County’s UL codes right now. No thanks for now. A whole home generator is $8000 installed

[@Acecool]

The whole deal about turning solar off is ridiculous. If everything is installed correctly, you can block power going out into the grid during a power outage so it happens automatically and you don't lose functionality. If you feed electricity into the grid, this still works.

[@cedriclapointe5869]

Ya I agree that having solar panels with a pawerwall is great for the grid, the Co2 saved and for the money saving. I'm only 15 so when I have my first house there will be further price cuts on the tesla energy products with more efficient technologies so it will be even more worth getting them.

[@vtorsi610]

Money *saved* ? You mean money spent ...

[@brianp9937]

I’m no expert, but states like Texas where power is pretty inexpensive makes the incentive a hard sell, not to mention the time required to recoup ROI. My question is why are some places so cheap on electricity?

[@atbiaol1929]

How much energy is your solar tiles currently generating per day in month of July in Massachusetts? Also does purchasing powerwall come under 30% federal credits?

[@TheCardinal365]

Question - Instead of using vacant land for the solar panels, why can't the company put those solar panels on all city buildings and suburban homes?