Extreme Meditation Mastery through Strong Determination Sitting - Shinzen Young

Shinzen Young tells of living with a Soto Zen Master who meditated 24hrs a day, only stopping to use the bathroom or address essential tasks.
He goes on to unpack extreme meditation mastery, breaking through pain, strong determination sitting, similarities between orgasm and spiritual attainment, and more.
Full episode: • Ep81: Orgasm, Epilepsy...
To find out more about Shinzen, visit:
- www.shinzen.org
For more interviews, videos, and more visit:
- www.guruviking.com
Music ‘Deva Dasi’ by Steve James

[@Jonas.verhaegen]

Past few days I've had some breakthroughs in my own journey and felt inspired to watch this video again. First time I listened to this, I sensed something profound but didn't fully get it. I've had a particular strong kind of dhyana experience while talking with a friend about the story of the buddha, and particularly his absolute surrender to finding the truth or dying. It's inviting me into my own absolute surrender, finding my own 'tree' where I can let go of myself and resolve all this seeking, find permanent stillness. I could never even remotely see how I would be able to do this ever, even naively assuming that if I would meditate an hour each day, then maybe one day this would be possible. Now I'm starting to see how someone would need a very high degree of surrender to do this. Imagine if you would have absolute surrender? You would need to release a lot of karma to even come to a point of 'absolute surrender'. I think if someone comes to that point, this becomes something possible if they are genuine. Or maybe inevitable for such a person. That dhyana experience has made me so present and still for the last few days, there is a sense of timeless awareness with a quality of stillness. I look at the clock from time to time and it feels meaningless. Although I'm far from embodying that timeless awareness for 3 days. But If you arrive at the cushion, embodying that absolute surrender and you are truly ready to die there, how long would it take for such a person to be able to sit there for 3 days like that? 3 days, right? Ultimately it doesn't matter for such a person, I think. You have nowhere to go. Everything lost it's meaning and so the only way to be is to be there. Wouldn't it be so much easier for such a person, because you would only have to deal with much less karma that the ordinary person who attemps this. What thoughts and feelings could sway you from your purpose if you have truly let it all go, truly. Something in meditation or yoga, there comes this absorptive state where I experience this intense stillness and emptiness for a while, but it's not stable and very deep, but still very profound. I think this state of absorption for a person with such absolute surrender eventually reaches an entire new depth, after working through all that strong rooted karma, like the physical body and it's pain senses, and all other karma that's left for someone like that, where it becomes his natural state, that of effortless timeless still present being awareness or whatever to call it. I think it may have something to do with these 'samadhi' experiences which I read are different types of, like this nirvikpla samadhi or formless absorption? If he truly becomes timeless, how many more days would he be able to sit there? This video made me cry from happiness.

[@ethanschaltegger]

There are a lot of comments who are questioning the efficacy or "point" of this type of practice on the path to liberation. This is somewhat understandable. This intensity of practice does not seem very compatible with the middle way. However, here's the crucial point these types of comments are missing. Strong determination sitting can act as a litmus test for one's relationship to suffering. If the conditions of life where to present chronic pain, disease, emotion volatility, immobility, if all of these conditions we take for granted as healthy, functional individuals where taken away, could we be be happy? This is what SDS facilitates. It's not about some macho, masochistic approach to practice; it is about facing the reality of what reality can be under a certain set of conditions with equanimity, with true peace. This type of practice prepares us for such possibilities, and helps us be more available for those who are going through this types of conditions. Moreover, we're all going to face death, eventually. Death is not always a pretty process. In fact more than likely, all of us will face some form of extreme physical pain in our lives and perhaps even as we're going through the dying process. Can we face those conditions forthrightly, with equanimity, happiness, and love? Can we free ourselves from suffering even at the end, in whatever form it plays out? This is the power and utility of SDS. I wouldn't say it's necessary to always be practicing this way, but it is a tool, a very practical and powerful tool towards directly gaining insight into the most intimate of human experiences - our suffering. It is a tool to stress test just how "enlightened" we think we are. It is a way of practice which shows us our blind spots and plants the seeds of equanimity more deeply than many forms of practice. Of course, DO NOT DAMAGE THE BODY, but be willing to test the limits of your mind. Pain is no issue if we know what pain really is.

[@Raina430]

Thank you, well said. I’ve encountered some serious physical limitations so I can relate to this. I’m not handling it with nearly enough equanimity but I’m searching for a way to do that.

[@dis4980]

If it floats people's boats but seems totally unnecessary to me. Why sit all day preparing for death. It sounds less like enlightenment and more like innate fear driving the practice.

[@ethanschaltegger]

@@dis4980 The practice isn't just about preparing for death. It's a practice centered around exploring the human condition, exploring the infinite depths of consciousness, and facilitating the hightest levels of human happiness. Just so happens these are great for facing death. 😉 It doesn't make sense why anyone would want to do this until you start getting serious about the work.

[@eoharafisher]

I agree with you. I am a chaplain working in a nursing home (previously hospitals) and my sense is no one is ready for the limitations imposed at the end of life. And this can go on for years. I'm certainly not ready to meditate 24 hours in a row, but I appreciate longer meditations/expanding sitting with everything.

[@mindgrapes1009]

It's always deeply impressive to hear about the 'hardcore' meditators of any tradition, and always fascinating just to hear Shinzen's anecdotes and speculation.

[@user-zq4ls1ml4j]

Absolutely love Shinzen!

[@freds6187]

I remember doing an hour sit each day, it was already difficult but the effects were noticeable. I was able to observe the internal pain with a clear head. It helped with resilience but I do have to say you have to structure you schedule well with it if you wanna do longer sits, and can drain energy due the need of enduring.

[@geovaniraffaelli4508]

This is incredible and very motivating. I come back to this video often.

[@mattrkelly]

I heard Soen Nakagawa did this... 100 day retreats, he tried to sit the whole time!

[@Raina430]

That’s incredible to know that Shinzen knew someone who sat all night and all day. “You have to break through a state of convulsive pain...”😮

[@navaneetjeevan2554]

Very interesting

[@write2sriin]

Wow...

[@ceruleandusk]

This is amazing. I assume since he is/was a Zen Master the method used was Shikantaza (just sitting)?

[@MarkDaviesThailand]

Ok, admittedly I follow the Theravada path, now with respect: I just don’t get it. This isn’t Samatha. This isn’t access concentration. This isn’t a Jhana. What’s going on here? Is it some type of masochistic endurance challenge? What is being achieved? What is the purpose?

[@danzacjones]

I have been on several all night sits (full and new moon) and I don't get it either. These sits were after a full schedule of 4am-9pm starts. Then 9pm-5am. I just sat with everyone in solidarity. FWIW i don't think it was competitive or masochistic. It was optional and if you had a competitive orientation you would probably cook yourself quick and go to bed. Indeed I believe that is whar happened to someone who sat once and then never sat again on a new or full moon xD. Me I always chickened out around 4am and would try get an hrs sleep.and come back for the morning chanting. I believe it was benefitial for me because I actually had a rocking good.time and also discovering the awakeness in difficult states. I conisdered it like "whar would I do if I was sick or about to die?" Well enjoy yourself dear, relax, have a good time xD But mostly I did it for no good reason as a sort of offering. It seemed the best thing I could be doing at that time. You get to see the moon when you break every hr or two and sometimes there are lightning storms. Sitting for no good reason: priceless xD xD

[@danzacjones]

Whats the prupose? There's an aspect of the path that is sort of not talked about for.risk of.boring people away: patience. Buddha said it was highest virtue.and practice. At some stage people are entranced by getting certain experiences or being a certaim type.of person in virtue of having certain types of experiemces: these are variations of.samsara and it doesn't matter if it is some deep.meditative experience or addiction to lollies xD If yoi are interestef Ajahn Sucitto seems to me the western practitioner that most.embodies this approach... for instance his first rains retreat he did the sitters practice... no laying down just sitting. Tenzin Palmo also adopted the same practice.

[@user-ic4ce8xb5v]

There is a good article by Guo Gu that explains Chan/Zen using logic from the Pali Canon, instead of training the mind with stages of samadhi, Silent Illumination is about the wisdom path to enlightenment. I don't see why this type of zazen has to be done for long sits though, I haven't seen this in Mahayana literature (it COULD be there, I just haven't read it)

[@simonsays525]

I'm not a big fan of strong determination sitting like this. It's pretty easy to ignore the "work yourself up to it" part and just go straight to the "force yourself to sit through the pain" part. It's possible for that type of practice to be beneficial, but I can't imagine it being beneficial more than 5% of the time. A fundamental aspect of the practice is right intention, which includes metta, and I'd rather air on the side of safety, perhaps sit through a bit of pain, but then shift the posture or change the posture entirely to alleviate the pain. Also, I think cultural context is important and Westerners tend to have overly critical minds and thus overly critical self talk. As a result, it's important to correct for this tendency by overcorrecting with opposing practices that focus on metta, karuna, and ease. But then again, I'm not Shinzen Young so who cares what I think?

[@duffmcduffee]

I know a lot of people who have given themselves permanent bodily damage and chronic pain, especially in the knees and back, from strong determination sitting. I can do 45-60 minutes without moving and that seems sufficient to me.

[@midooley543]

‘I can’t imagine it being beneficial more than 5% of the time.’ Well you pulled that figure out of your ass. Are you actually going to explain why you think this is the case?

[@simonsays525]

@@midooley543 I did. Because to me, wise practice means practicing in line with the Noble 8 Fold Path, which means practicing with kindness, including kindness to myself and my body. Working with pain is an integral part of the practice, but I don't recommend the type of practice that Shinzen recommends in this video. A hardcore Zen style, which says to sit and sit and sit no matter what pain arises. In my opinion, that is how people blow out their knees and back. I hope that is clarifying. May you be well.

[@jaredlangson3038]

How does a person sitting motionless for 12+ hours not get blood clots?

[@geovaniraffaelli4508]

He probably did get them, if you watch the documentary of the marathon monks you'll see how deformed his feet and legs become after years of hardcore walking meditation for many hours a day through the mountain, yet somehow he still walks with perfect posture. My guess is that these people experience pain in an entirely different way after practicing in this way for years

[@mikelion2743]

A young boy in Nepal sat for 6 months outside in the elements under a tree without moving.

[@supremeknowing]

Yeah and became mad! He killed people! (So have a heard on the news)

[@mikelion2743]

@@supremeknowing Hi my friend. Yes, I heard of these accounts and I know that for me it is best to always see/experience things first hand. So, I flew to Nepal to meet Him and I did. So, maybe it would be good to see for yourself, who knows what you may experience. But of course you have the right to believe the media. Take care

[@supremeknowing]

@@mikelion2743 oh cool you are definitely right about seeing it for yourself! But how was it? And are you saying that the news around him is fake? I think even 1 of his own family member informed the police about his bad ways ( according to the news)

[@mikelion2743]

@@supremeknowing Thank you so much for your kind and considerate reply. My meeting with Him changed everything for me. I just knew that I had to look deeper into my Being. He had talked of a Feeling deep within every living being that has the potential to bring harmony and balance back to the world. There was a lot said but I can't go into that now. As for the news brother, what I saw, was not what the news was reporting. I did met His family too. They were fine and they were interested in our story and how we ended up in Nepal, very friendly. Its hard to talk about this because He had said to keep my speech Truthful, kind, gentle, uplifting and inspiring. He had no ill feeing towards any of the people who were saying these things about Him. He said once to just be patient and to stay on the Path. Beautiful Brother, If its ok, i'll stop here. I want to respect The Guru Viking Platform and I know this a Platform for devotees of Gautama Buddha and His Teachings. Thank you again for taking the time to talk with me. I really appreciate it. I hope you have had a wonderful day my friend. Take care

[@JPxKillz]

Gotama thought this type of thing was pointless if your goal was liberation / extinction. Pretty cool that someone can do this though, hopefully people don't mistake this for what it's not.

[@supremeknowing]

Yet he sat 7 days under the bodhi tree and in fact recommended other to do determination sit but with goal to end all sorrow and attain the stainless state of nirvana.

[@Blobiverse]

the strong determination is not to sit, which Gautama is correct to scoff at. The strong determination is to end suffering once and for all, and to do that one must be quite very still, so very silent, and aware-observing.

[@mispanludensprinck5652]

It's nice to hear, but from the point of view of human physiology it's probably nonsense. Pressure ulcer (decubitus) begins to form in as little as two hours of immobility. And after three days a meditator would already have necrosis and gangrene wherever there is pressure on the skin.

[@spiritualgrowthwithpranaya2388]

That is not something that sounds to me much of the middle way, I am not sure I understand how this helps to overcome the 3 kleshas. There are forms of strong determinations in Mahasi style that are done for a few days and they are very useful , but they are done under supervision and not always for everybody. if it is done by the wrong person that may bring to madness. I think people may look at it as personal achievement or believe that the way to enlightenment has to go through very extreme super human efforts. though meditation retreats can be sometimes very challenging I feel that believing that this form of practice is essential for deep insight can become a trap

[@slobma7973]

What is this have to do with liberation or enlightenment he hasn't even mentioned it! There's people with all kind of capacities mentally and physically a few can go to the Olympics and win a gold medal but the Buddha said we all have Buddha nature we all can be free without goin to the Olympics.

[@Raina430]

So interesting. He never slept! But didn’t the monk eat?

[@Babassecretchannel]

It is curious how traits of asceticism keep coming up in buddhism, which started the very moment the founder left ascetic practices. OK, some lives one might want to sit in meditation (of whatever type) but awakening/enlightenment is not in the form of sitting. Extremism is extremism. This is of little use and a poor example for other people.

[@HanjoYoutaku]

I find this music weird

[@Mountain_Dhamma]

How utterly pointless and pathological