F-102 and F-104 | Century Series Part 2

One video wasn't enough! We're continuing our investigation of the Century Series aircraft in Part 2 of this Curator on the Loose! miniseries. Join The Museum of Flight's Senior Curator Matthew Burchette on a journey through the National Museum of the United States Air Force in Dayton, Ohio to check out the F-102 and F-104. And make sure you stay tuned for Part 3!
Huge thanks to both the NMUSAF and the Dayton Aviation Heritage National Historic Park for putting up with our antics for this episode!
Visit The Museum of Flight ➡️ museumofflight.org/
Check out The Museum of Flight's Podcast ➡️ museumofflight.org/podcast

[@cbroz7492]

I'm 73, and the Century Series is probably my favorite group of aircraft..I built models of many of them...

[@USAFmuseum]

We love this!!!

[@jimburig7064]

These were all great planes, but the F-104 impresses me the most.

[@donaldwycoff4154]

My father was on the team of engineers who developed the onboard auto-navigation system. I think he was very proud of the F-104. But from what he said, the retros and refits an ever-increasing number of new roles is what stalled and stymied the project's success. I've been up to F-104's sitting on the ground, but I've never seen one fly. I'm sure my father would have liked your video. I sure did. Thanks.

[@museumofflight]

Many of these planes were built for purpose A, but got used for purpose B, C and Z, for which they were less effective. Your dad had an excellent point. Thanks for sharing!

[@mikesmith-wk7vy]

That’s why it had all its problems but I still say it would have done better early on in Vietnam than the f4 against the migs but everyone just brings up the German pilots crashing them

[@constpegasus]

That starfighter is something else. Built the model kit when I was a kid.

[@SoloRenegade]

yes, it was something else. something far less successful than people try to claim. the F11F-1 was superior.

[@anderspedersen6750]

Nothing beats the howl of the 104. Even looking at the video from Italia a few weeks back, Typhoon, F-35, 104 and 86 in formation, and the howl from the 104 can easily be heard.

[@Jones607]

Of all the “century series” aircraft, the F-104 is my favourite. It looks cool, and it has an interesting “service career.” I have one in my museum.😆🫡

[@billstrader4326]

I took my dad to Dayton to see the F-102. He remembered the serial# as he had worked on that plane while stationed in Iceland. Got a picture of him in front of it that is one of my favorites.

[@rockyraab8290]

The 104 had an unmistakable engine howl in flight. So distinctive you didn't have to see it to know what it was.

[@AIRWARFAREGROUP]

Missed you today Mr Burchettt. Love your videos and have been following since Wings Over The Rockies “BAM” 😊

[@waynesworldofsci-tech]

Ah, the Flying Lawn Dart, one of my faves.

[@brucefelger4015]

Back when they still had the CF-104's they went to Red Flag, where some of my prowler friends described their attack as "straight in at the speed of heat, right through the furball, leave, turn around and do it again. no turn and burn for them.

[@SoloRenegade]

hard to turn and burn, when you can't turn...

[@BS25999]

Great fun videos, thankyou.

[@FlightSimHistorian]

There was an old saying about how a civilian in Germany could get an F-104. “Just buy a plot of land and then wait”

[@aviationist1018]

I kinda don’t get it. Is it because the F-104 had a horrendous crash record?

[@FlightSimHistorian]

Something like that. They lost hundreds of them to crashes.

[@Jones607]

To be fair to the F-104, only the cream of the USAF pilots got to fly them. Whereas the Luftwaffe put rookie pilots in them. The results shouldn’t have been surprising. Also the USAF stores them in hangars, whereas the Luftwaffe left them outside in the elements. Europe can be a very wet and cold climate, not good for any cutting edge fighter plane.

[@sindbad8411]

@@Jones607 That's a myth no idea where you get that from: the Luftwaffe put rookie pilots in them here is one of several German documentaries. There are no rookies but older experienced pilots. kzbin.info/www/bejne/ipWoZZt4nb2dbM0 And yet they loved it! 25 years of Starfighters in the Bundeswehr In reality the plane was "half baked" and what we would call today a beta version. Simply the central European weather caused problems. It was very different from a bright sunny Texas.

[@Jones607]

@@sindbad8411 For every documentary that says one thing, there’s another that says the opposite. It was a very select few American pilots who got to fly the F-104. Basically the F-104 was a missile with a man in it. The short stubby wings meant it was a pig to fly at low altitudes. It took the full length of the runway and then some to get airborne. Unlike their American counterparts, the Luftwaffe loses were high.

[@wadejustanamerican1201]

Great series, thanks.

[@museumofflight]

Thanks! If there are any other airplanes you'd like to see, let us know!

[@JH_75]

These videos are just so well done. I can't send enough superlatives your way. Thanks for the great content, interesting, entertaining, educational.

[@ch46f]

You should have mentioned the F-4 as the last century fighter. It was originally designated the F-110 by the Air Force then became F-4C. Great series.

[@williammitchell4417]

One thing about the Starfighter, be very careful around her wing edges, they could slice you in half like a knife.

[@malusignatius]

I'm surprised that the scandal involving the F-104 purchases was overlooked... It's hard to be objective about the Starfighter without considering that aspect of it's development.

[@DennisMerwood-xk8wp]

The F-35 acquisition has been even more scandalous. Somebody should be in jail!

[@cbroz7492]

..in Germany in the early 70s our unit, 4/35 Armor was tasked on numerous occasions to provide security around F-104 crash sites..usually is was our Combat Support Company (CSC) that went out for 24 hrs to keep the curious...like me..away.. Ivwad s serious aircraft model builders and eould have loved to get close to ine...

[@jaycooper2812]

The F-104 Starfighter was in service with the German Air Force until 2004 and it was used in Pakistan until 2014. I watched some of the last F-104s in service with the Air National Guard at Elmendorf Air Force Base in the 1970s when i was just a little bitty kid. It was astonishing to see them scramble at night when the flame from the afterburner stretched out 50 feet behind the in an almost vertical climb.

[@DennisMerwood-xk8wp]

And the F-104's crashed sometimes four at a time! How many did they lose? LOL

[@sindbad8411]

@@DennisMerwood-xk8wp According to this documentary the "four at a time" crash happened right the grand opening. They mention that Lockheed was not doing well being almost bankrupt and dire need of an order. The Bundeswehr ordered more than 700 but also signed a license to produce further planes in Europe which was the beginning of German and European Aero and later space industries. About third of it crashed and more than 100 plots died. Overall it seems it was a powerfull but delicate piece of equipment overloaded with lots of tasks. kzbin.info/www/bejne/hJTCmZqbf6eLeck with English subs

[@garyodle5663]

The F-102 was pulled out of Vietnam in 1968 because it performed so poorly. It was designed to intercept Soviet bombers but in Vietnam it was used to escort EB-66s. Nowhere near as maneuverable as the Mig-21 and it's canopy gave the pilot very limited visibility in combat. It was simply doing a job it had never been designed to do. And there is a reason the F-104 saw widespread use outside of the United States: The U.S. Air Force did not want it. Fuel limited it had short legs. Unable to intercept bombers a great distance away, F-104s were practically doing it over their home base. The short wings gave it limited maneuverability, not really good for a combat aircraft. It's primary tactic was to make one pass at the target, keep on going because a reattack was so hard if it missed, and return to base. Not much help in an air defense environment with fleets of bombers coming at us. Yes, it looks great but great looks don't win air battles.

[@SoloRenegade]

the F-102 and F-104 both suffered embarrassing losses in Vietnam with no air to air victories that I'm aware of. both were quickly pulled from Vietnam and replaced with better aircraft like the F-4. people try to make these aircraft out to be better than they were. The real aircraft the USAF and other nations should have gotten was the F11F-1.

[@ilsagutrune2372]

Interesting he did not drop the other shoe on the F-104… he mentions it being a widow maker in Europe but not the Lockheed bribery scandal associated with it

[@jakobbgh6310]

As said in the video it did have a bad safety record. In Germany there was a morbid joke about it: How do you get a starfighter? You buy a piece of land and sit down and wait.

[@Hartley_Hare]

Didn't they call it the 'Witwenmacher,' or widowmaker?

[@sindbad8411]

@@Hartley_Hare yepp, Viel zu viele Abstürze kosteten 116 Piloten das Leben. Insgesamt verlor die Bundeswehr von 916 beschafften Flugzeugen 300 Stück, davon 269 durch Abstürze. Das war ein trauriger Rekord. Helmut Schmitt war damals ein Gegner der Beschaffung: zuviele verschiedene Aufgaben für nur 1 Flugzeug.

[@mako88sb]

Nice! I read Al Worden's book Falling to Earth and one chapter was devoted to his time as a test pilot flying the NF-104. His description of high altitude flights in it were pretty amazing. He also wrote that Chuck Yeager definitely screwed up when one of the NF-104's was lost. Everybody was walking on eggshells arouind him though as nobody dared mention it.

[@SoloRenegade]

the F-104 was a great X-plane, a terrible combat aircraft.

[@bountyhunter_5150]

Actually the Italian airforce kept 2 TF-104M and 2 F-104ASAM in use until 2005 in a test squadron.

[@NeroontheGoon]

The F-102 was a flying anachronism as it did nothing well! The F-106 Delta Dart was the most incredible of the American deltas. I had friends who flew the F-15’s at Eglin AFB and they loathed the F-106, the only aircraft that could openly best the F-15.

[@wambathewisefool2893]

As an interceptor, I reckon if the 20mm and the AIM-9s where spent, just throttle it in the invading bomber, ejecting right before it went up the tailpipe of the bomber...missle that lost its pilot. 😊

[@owntor1]

8:29 what is this large-finned object on the pylon?

[@jeffduford5847]

Towed gunnery target...it would be let out on a long cable for other fighters to shoot at for practice/training.

[@nunyabidness3075]

Why did it take so little time to design and build these planes without computers when today it takes much longer using all the modern advantages?

[@MrDgwphotos]

The F-102's were originally sent to Vietnam to counter IL-28 "Beagle" bombers that had been supplied to the North Vietnamese Air Force. That threat never really materialized, and the F-102 was utilized in a number of other roles for which they were not really designed for, including escorting B-52's, close air support using the FFAR's, and even using their IR seeker system to find and engage targets at night on the Ho Chi Minh trail using either FFAR's, the AIM-4 Genie's, or calling in another aircraft with better striking power against ground targets.

[@stephenjacks8196]

F-104 had blown wing for landing.

[@lsdzheeusi]

Matt I need that hat! Where did you get it?

[@SmedleyDouwright]

Is there a part 1?

[@ShandiNicole1982]

My dad flew A-37’s in Vietnam then got transferred to an F-4 unit. Kinda missed the F-104’s.

[@marouaniAymen]

I appreciated a lot the video, but where is Part 1 ?

[@museumofflight]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oZnWpnWterWtj5I Here you go!

[@parrotraiser6541]

What happened to -103?

[@charlesdudek7713]

The program never progressed beyond mock up stage.

[@Idahoguy10157]

Lockheed redesigned Clarence Kelly’s lightweight fighter in the F-104G. It didn’t end well

[@jwenting]

the G performed very well in Dutch service, and with several other countries. The main reason Germany had so many accidents was insufficient training, both of the pilots and maintenance crews. Basically F-86 and F-84 crews were thrown into a Mach 2 capable aircraft without much of any transition training at all. The larger turning radius, higher speeds, and thus shorter reaction times caused many of the accidents, the maintenance problems caused the rest. Dutch, Norwegian, and other countries' Gs had far lower accident rates while flying the same roles and missions.

[@Idahoguy10157]

@@jwenting …. Both the Luftwaffe and RCAF had high crash rates. Not anyone else’s air forces. That being said pressing an F-104 into a ground attack role was a poor choice. Versus procuring a dedicated light attack bomber for that job.

[@danodamano2581]

If only the nmusaf painted the walls white it could show more detail of the aircraft with their led lighting.

[@timsmith2525]

Where is Part I?!

[@mytech6779]

Link to part one in the description? Naw...

[@mikesmith-wk7vy]

I bet I know what the later f102 was redesigned as . The f106

[@youknowmenowpodcast1455]

There is still a missing F-102 somewhere in the Olympic mountains in Western Washington. Pilot, Captain Lucas was never recovered. Few guys are still looking for it kzbin.info/www/bejne/gpLFnJ-hmct4ja8

[@jb6027]

What happened to Part 3???

[@museumofflight]

Here you go: kzbin.info/www/bejne/a4ecl6ielJx3q80si=9m1SIE97O8HNIXWZ

[@jb6027]

@@museumofflight THANKS!!!

[@johnelrick8945]

Catch a falling starfighter Put. it in the pocket of your jeans You can use it as a cigarette lighter Or an opener for a can of beans.

[@winstonsmith478]

Where is part 1?

[@museumofflight]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oZnWpnWterWtj5I Here you go!

[@robertboykin1828]

how bout the F 106 ?

[@Justanotherconsumer]

The F-104 gets a bad rap. The Hun actually had a worse safety record, and none of the century series were that great from an accident perspective. Given that they were designed barely 10 years after the first practical jet aircraft, not a surprise. That said, the MiG-21 is still in service and it’s easy to compare to the F-104.

[@SoloRenegade]

the F-104 got a bad rap for sucking at everything practical. It had a 0:1 kill ratio, couldn't dogfight, sucked at CAS, etc. it was quickly pulled from frontline service in Vietnam after disastrous showing, just like the F-102. The aircraft the US, Japan, Canada, Germany, and many others should have gotten instead of the F-104 was the F11F-1. A superior aircraft that was defeated by Lockheed's political bribery.

[@dukeford8893]

@@SoloRenegade The F11 had even shorter legs than the Starfighter, and half the payload. NATO probably should have bought the Mirage.

[@SoloRenegade]

@@dukeford8893 Wrong. First, I'm talking about the F11F-1F Super Tiger, not the F-11 Tiger. F-104 combat radius: 420mi F11 combat radius: 640mi F11F-1F combat radius: 770mi The F-104 could only carry 4000lb of payload. F-11 was 3000lb. Not much data on the more powerful F11F-1F. The Super Tiger was superior to the F-104, but bribery from Lockheed kept it from outselling teh F-104.

[@JackNiles-hc8yz]

@@SoloRenegade Pretty hard to make that claim, since they only built two of the things, and it was never fully developed. The F-104G was all ready to go.

[@SoloRenegade]

@@JackNiles-hc8yz No, it's very easy to make that claim, as they built them, did the calculations for the design, and tested them. You can't just dismiss hard evidence because you 're a F-104 lap dog. Lockheed's corruption regarding the F-104 is famous and well documented.

[@ivanmollet2491]

When there's frost on the pumpkin it's time for delta Dunking -Old Air force saying

[@SoloRenegade]

F-102 was recalled from Vietnam because it sucked in that application.

[@SoloRenegade]

you forgot to mention the F-104 has a 0:1 kill ratio, and was defeated in air combat in Vietnam and replaced by the F-4 which was a better fighter. F-104 was proliferated globally due to Lockheed's bribery. The F11F-1 was the superior aircraft.

[@museumofflight]

Thanks for adding more to the story!

[@davemojarra4734]

The 104 was an interceptor, not suitable for ground support.

[@SoloRenegade]

@@davemojarra4734 actually, thy intended it to be an "air superiority fighter", or so they claim. never mind it sucked at air combat.

[@gort8203]

The F-104 was not defeated in combat over Vietnam, it never engaged an enemy fighter there. All the losses were due to ground fire or operational accidents. The one that was shot down over Hainan Island was lost due to navigational failure; the pilot didn't know where he was or even that he was under attack. It was indeed an air superiority fighter rather than an "interceptor", and it did perform ground attack in Vietnam in addition to escort and CAP.

[@SoloRenegade]

@@gort8203 one was shot down by enemy aircraft. and it was not good at ground attack It was such a good fighter it was pulled from frontline service and replaced with the better F-4 which was a better Interceptor, Fighter, and Bomber overall, while being carrier capable.

[@SoloRenegade]

F-104 was a great aircraft? great at what exactly?

[@gort8203]

Going really fast. When it was designed that was what fighters were designed to do.

[@geoffpyne4766]

No love for the F-103?

[@SoloRenegade]

the F-103 was a proposed concept that never got built.

[@johnosbourn4312]

Just so you know, the F-104 was also armed with two wingtip mounted AIM-9B Sidewinder air to air missiles, in addition to the M61 Vulcan 20mm gun.

[@williamhudson4938]

Did you even watch the video? PDSA

[@mikesmith-wk7vy]

The f 100 and f104 would have done so much better against the migs in Vietnam than the f4

[@petrovichbauer5105]

How about a haircut?

[@MrJunglebear1]

didn't you forget the 106 and the 105

[@Justanotherconsumer]

Probably next video.

[@Lafly84]

Yeah, he teased us with the unnamed F-106 future video reference...

[@REDhlg]

Where's a link to part 1?

[@SoloRenegade]

@@REDhlg kzbin.info/www/bejne/oZnWpnWterWtj5I