«F*** You With Your Bullsh*t Snatch!» - Kettlebell World Champion Goes After Pavel Tsatsouline

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🔥 Ivan Denisov's Bold Take on Pavel Tsatsouline: Unfiltered Opinions!
Get ready for a no-holds-barred discussion as World Champion Ivan Denisov opens up about Pavel Tsatsouline, the renowned strength and fitness guru. Ivan's candid and direct approach leaves no room for sugar-coating, and he doesn't mince words when it comes to Pavel's techniques.
Ivan Denisov doesn't hold back, stating in no uncertain terms what he thinks about Pavel and his approach.
But that's not all! We also react to Ivan Denisov's comments on our previous videos, where he didn't hesitate to voice his opinions. We address these comments head-on.
Make sure to subscribe to our channel to stay updated with more thought-provoking interviews and discussions on the world of strength and fitness. We're not afraid to tackle controversial topics and get the conversation flowing.
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Join the conversation, share your thoughts, and let us know where you stand on this bold exchange of views.
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[@oldgrizz8720]

I'm 66 yrs old, I started lifting weights when I was 12. When I began there was just basic information available. Everybody was basically doing the basic lifts of Bench, Squat, Deadlift, Military Press, Curls. The basic routine was 3x10. Increasing weight and decreasing reps. Eventually bodybuilding became popular and weight lifting seemed to split into bodybuilding and powerlifting. Eventually Olympic lifting has gained in popularity and Clean and Jerk and Snatches entered the picture. What became clear was that while we all used the same weights and equipment, PURPOSE dictated how we used the equipment. In 2016 I started using Kettlebells exclusively. (I live in a small apartment). I have both Fitness bells and Competition Bells. What is clear is the once again PURPOSE dictates how I use the tools. In the end, I do a variety of workouts and utilize both styles of KB lifting. I am not a competitor, so I see no reason to pick a style or be exclusive. The Kettlebell is a tool that can help us reach our goals whether it be strength, endurance, or both. No need to argue about it.

[@lebe-stark]

I love how you use the word "purpose". I use "intent" which is a similar word. Appreciate your feedback, brother!

[@gustavogranha3163]

Perfect analysis, sir! Best regards from Brazil.

[@PauloBerni699]

Your journey sounds like mine (60)! Well said!

[@Patreas1971]

I 'm 52, lifting since i was 18 and i AGREE with you 100%. Sorry, i mean 1000%

[@mattnelson8325]

Way to take the high road. Your true character shines through. I appreciate that.

[@The508ranger]

Wow 😮 Dude was totally disrespectful. Glad you were the bigger man reference this topic. Negative energy is bad energy. Keep trucking mate!

[@johnerdis5094]

Ivan's performance fills me with awe. Pavel's workouts fill me with dread. My path is somewhere in between. Your mileage may vary lol. Love the lebe stark attitude! Thanks J

[@davidwagner9644]

I think where people go wrong in this whole disagreement is failing to realize Pavel is not a kettlebell athlete. Pavel was a soldier and physical trainer for the Russian Military. I have no doubts in my mind the professional kettlebell athletes have refined their techniques to such a level in order to maximize repetitions that their stance is different than Pavels.

[@jonathanfrost944]

💯💯💯

[@JRL6211]

Very true, I think Pavel had to take KB Sport and change it into something easier to learn for the average person, which most soldiers are. KB Sport Snatch, in particular, is a much more complicated technique, whereas the Hardstyle stuff that Pavel invented is much more simplistic, it also mimics fighting better than GS does. Neither is bad or good, just different.

[@sjustus7]

Pavel addresses this in his book Return of the Kettlebell in the first chapter. GS is an endurance system, HardStyle is power. GS is a specialized sport, while HardStyle is a training system that is not intended for kettlebell sport. Neither is right or wrong, it just depends on what your training goal is.

[@nickpatel74]

This is why I watch your channel. I love your perspective, and I love your workouts. I have learned so much watching your videos. I have been practicing with kettlebell for years, but there is always something that someone else can teach us if we're humble enough to learn it. Thank you

[@ianbrett3276]

Gregory you definitely hold the moral high ground in this disagreement with Ivan his use of that kind of language means he's lost the argument in my opinion so more power to you and Lebe Stark as I believe you are the best kettlebell platform in the world right now 👍

[@nortonf2008]

I I'm just a Latin American guy with little money in the bank, no important relatives and coming from a small country town. I fell in love with training with kettlebells at the age of 30 (im 52) and since then I have done countless workouts, studied the movements and I can say and prove it, or better yet: I swear by my health! all the benefits of this type of training. And thats make me healthier, ad stroger, and hapy. What surprises me a lot and what hurts people are these types of comments and videos reacting to other people's content. I say I turned my eyes to myself and practiced... for myself, for the kettlebell, for LIFE. Not for Pavel, for Ivan, for Ragnar... All movements that contain consciousness are effective and good. Even those with the mouth that speaks. I'm saddened by these types of comments, they happen throughout the sporting world. And Mr. Stark, I knew it would happen to you one day. Anyone who throws weight in the air has to know how to hold it back. I liked your attitude, I felt the same way.

[@jonathanfrost944]

For all the criticism Pavel gets, I have never once heard him make a negative comment about anyone. And I was there on the DD forum when he and DuCane started the whole thing.

[@lebe-stark]

I don't think there's a problem to make a "negative" comment, as long as it's done in good faith. Thanks for sharing!

[@jonathanfrost944]

@@lebe-stark agreed!

[@mbrasilbutaitis]

Constructive criticism

[@dr.navaneeth]

You really should get him on a podcast to explain all this, cause I've noticed him and even Denis do it without pushing their hip forward. It will be a great way to learn more.

[@mattyoutubecomment4251]

Denisov is doing a series of vids on snatch right now. Go on his channel and look for the recent vids that say #1-#5 on them. I don't speak Russian - I watch with KZbin captions/auto-translate. I forget which vid he talks about hip drive, watch them all. He talks about actuating the movement of the pendulum using vertical motion of your legs to send the bell "up" rather than pushing the bell "out" with pelvic thrust

[@darlenedunn5693]

I love your professionalism .. discussions are always necessary. All the KB exercises are great and necessary, but the effectiveness of each KB exercise all depends on each individual ... health, mental, physical capabilities, strength, and flexibility ... all various from person to person Sometimes, some people don't have the physical capabilities of doing the exercises perfectly with good form (curved spine, for example) ... but the fact they are doing bz they like it or for any other reason. Let's get people to workout and HELP them based on their capabilities. There is always more than 1 way lift, train, gain strength ... work with what you're given, and don't complain about what you don't have. Let's help each other

[@rezamalihi7120]

Great response from a great coach and KB practitioner! Really appreciate your professionalism & positive vibe! Thx 🙏

[@lebe-stark]

Our pleasure!

[@drochell7970]

You are a great coach, good on you for taking the high road. Keep up the good work Gregory! 🇨🇱

[@lebe-stark]

I appreciate that!

[@mattashton7599]

Well said! Way to answer professionally. Keep up the great work and thank you for all your instruction! It has all been very helpful and motivating!

[@lebe-stark]

Much appreciated!

[@leikind]

I speak Russian (not a Russian myself) and I am originally from a post-Soviet country, now living and swinging kettlebells somewhere in Western Europe :) . It's a little bit of a culture difference. The level of socially accepted arrogance and even aggression in Russia is somewhat higher than that in the Western world. I am not excusing Ivan, I am just saying that his comments don't look as bad in the eyes of Ivan's compatriots. Surely, if you want to leave the Russian cultural bubble and communicate with the bigger world, you have to adjust your attitude.

[@trevorlee6303]

Clearly you are the better man. Thank you for being authentic.

[@peterglaser6480]

Well done! One should always distinguish between bad technique and technique not optimal for a certain goal.

[@lebe-stark]

Intent > style

[@Trevin11]

Transitioning from classic weightlifting/bodybuilding to kettlebell workouts for the past 2 months. Loving the kettlebells. 45 years old and want to develop more longevity and vo2 max. I appreciate your approach. Keep it up! ✊👊

[@leikind]

As for the TGU, I know that lots of people don't consider it such good exercise, including Lebe Stark, and I respect their opinion. When someone, even a world champion, has spent no time learning a movement and then demonstrates it with the most abhorrent terrible form and then says "See, it is terrible, I told ya". That is not an argument.

[@beatroot_red]

I can see where his frustration is coming from but that's no excuse for being disrespectful. People in KB sports in the former Soviet Union are not huge fans of Pavel. He is regarded as a bit of a sell out if you will. He is basically seen as a guy who took basic military training (hard style KB), went to the US and made money with it. Jealousy probably also plays a part here. Imagine Ivan training and competing on the highest level for decades to become a Master of Sports, a prestigious but not very lucrative title, and then seeing Pavel making a killing over in the states by showing dumb Westeners the basics of KB training. A thing every school boy in the Soviet Union knew. Given the rise of nationalism in Russia I'm not suprised that KB sports is regarded as the ultimate Russian sport and somebody like Pavel, as seen by the people like Ivan, should not be a part of that. Greetings from Kazakhstan.

[@rudygomez6511]

The way you stick to your guns while being open is why I trust and follow you. People seem to forget that not everything is black and white and discussion is the best way forward. I appreciate your humility and for offering so much to everyone.

[@marunia256]

To honor of Ivan I must say "Shli by vy..." it's not the same as "F*** you", it's much softer version of that saying and it's not even consided a cursing.

[@thaifightLondon]

First of all being a great in sport or being a great human being, communicate respectfully all different, but if already representing something in high level, yesss communication matters a lot, and how to react! I had the honour to met with Pavel a few times when i signed up for RKC instructor course in 2008, and never seen him saying anything bad about anyone even they were split with John Du Cane and he put down the foundation of StrongFirst he os leading today! Technically, not every exercise us for everyone! Some people even I don't teach swings or snatches or anything over head for a while because lots of dysfunction we have to fix before... Everyone is is different and the body is responding differently even the same movements in many cases! We are responsible for the people if teaching them or influence them any way, as an instructor or competitor! Anyway, Pavel is a genius the way he is teaching and what he us teaching is absolutely outstanding!

[@sethfarrell9605]

There's nothing wrong with either style. Do what you like. Before Covid, I was training for SF certification. I was snatching a 24 2-3 times a week and never got hurt. I'm also not a competitive athlete. I'm doing a KB program now that has some eclectic variations of exercises. There not stupid, just different. I may not like them and might choose to do them the way I feel more comfortable. It's all good. Be safe, make an honest effort, and you'll get where you're trying to go. Keep towing the line brother!

[@jonathanfrost944]

That’s disappointing. I’m not sure I understand exactly what he’s saying, was he criticizing you or Pavel? Either way I appreciate your openness and what you are doing for the kettlbell community.

[@lebe-stark]

He was critiquing the HS snatch (and by extension, Pavel's methods).

[@jonathanfrost944]

@@lebe-stark that’s what I thought, thank you! You should see if you can get Pavel Macek on your podcast, he’s an interesting character. And Taco Fleur👍 God bless and thank you for what you’re doing.

[@VieuxSaxe]

@@lebe-stark I think I got it. You made a video as if he was talking about Tsatsouline (and that's not true, he was talking about different types of movements in the swing) and he responds that his real opinion about Pavel is in this old comment that he copied.

[@AkramAli-ve7fe]

Just listened. Agree with you. Technical difference of opinion is one thing. Disrespect is another. Disrespect is unacceptable. On a side note, both these legends have been great athletes and have helped thousands of people in their fitness quests. For a common person like me, 45, never been athletic, snatch with even 16kg is not easy, but that's not my goal. My goal is to be better and fitter and as long as I learn from a coach in that, it's good enough for me.

[@AkramAli-ve7fe]

Let me listen. 2 legends, I'll say.

[@LordZiober]

wow Gregory, I dont always agree with you but you always got my respect and I always looking forward to learn something from you. I didnt expect that from Ivan... In my perspective Ivan is showing russian "only way" of training, if you disagree you are wrong. I heard stories about Ukrainian and Russian style of training. Ivan's records are very impressive but true champion should be humble sometimes or just show some respect. Ivan on the podcast will be great! God bless Gregory!

[@lebe-stark]

I hope Ivan appears on the pod to clear things up! He didn't respond to my comments, so maybe this video will get his attention. lol

[@gregthompson8062]

I have been training for 23 years. I have to agree with both on certain points. Kettlebells are great but not necessary. Barbells are great but not necessary, dumbbells are great but also not necessary. Bodyweight is obviously great as you need no equipment but still not end all be all. In time incorporating these listed above in certain phases should be the idea. Train what makes you want to get up and feel good. Don’t train on what you hate or doesn’t feel good. Because there will be times when what one exercise feels great wont feel great the following year. Its all about not getting injured and staying healthy which what allows us to train in any in any discipline at any time on what feels good for us at that time. Cheers!

[@terryharris1291]

Most people do not need to or want to train like athletes or tactical athletes.

[@lebe-stark]

Agree 100%

[@MMZS528]

nice response brother. I hope mr. Denisov comes to your podcast and you two can have a fruitful respectful exchange.

[@unconventionalathletetv1009]

Ivan is a great lifter. That said he’s been nothing but an ass every time he’s been down to my area (Southern California). The OKC flew him in, put him up in a hotel, gave him spending money and treated him like royalty for several years while they had an annual kettlebell competition here. The guy was PAID to be an ambassador for the sport and the event. He would refuse pictures with kids, sit in the corner with his headset on and ignore everybody. People genuinely felt like they were bothering this guy. Unless you paid 200$+ for a training session with him he wanted nothing to do with you. After a few years of this crap he wasnt invited back and hasn’t been back since. People got sick of this guy. He may have done incredible things with kb sport lifters but for general fitness with average people his style won’t work. I learned from pavels teachings and have had a lot of success strengthening people and improving their health, isn’t that the point? So it worked.

[@lebe-stark]

I appreciate your insights, brother! Great to read your name in the comments!

[@utubepunk]

Thanks for the behind the scenes shop talk. 🙏 Sounds like he's stuck in his thinking.

[@eduardovillanes]

Ivan is right In my opinion Pavel made a "light" version for western culture that looks for fast results

[@garymoore3446]

Well said!

[@fiddlebender88]

It's really crazy... I have respect for both but it's really clear that there's a divide that has been present for decades. Pavel popularized kettlebells in the west but I don't fully understand the goals that him, RKC and StrongFirst have. They seem like a cult. And contrary to their name they often don't seem to be that strong. Then again, I don't fully understand all the aspects of girya either. It's much closer to olympic weightlifting with an emphasis on energy conservation and absorption rather than maximal strength output. I have been using kettlebells for 10 or so years and I can find value in many things both "hardstyle" and kettlebell sport lifts. Depending on your goals whether it's more towards performance or longevity, there are benefits for doing either one. One last thing I will say... intentionally limiting yourself to either one will only define where your ability ends. Explore if you have the opportunity.

[@Yourhairsonsweet]

Im a kettlebell sport guy myself and im sorry you have to deal with stuff like that. Look up to desniov hes an absolute mosnter but nobodys perfect. Keep do your thing brother, you're helping a lot of people andbi love your interviews with the gs guys because thats my interest obviously. -guy from Southern California

[@comsfitness]

Well spoken brother.

[@lebe-stark]

Appreciate the feedback, brother!

[@esteban8183]

This debate is fruitless I think. This is similar to comparing boxing vs. MMA. Pavel’s HS is more or less an MMA approach to Kettlebells imo. Kettlebells sport and hardstyle can both coexist, but it’s useless to compare one to another. Hardstyle approaches Kettlebell training from a a whole different perspective, explosiveness and general GPP when compared to the kettlebell sport aspect of endurance and efficiency. It’s just not the same, there’s no point in comparing the 2 different training styles.

[@lebe-stark]

Here you go: go.lebestark.ch/workout-guide-en-fb

[@wulfschlueter2112]

Every exercise and sport has it's place ,everyone is physically diffrent in some way and do better in some ares than others and some do ego lifts /over exercise and injuries happen

[@lebe-stark]

Agree 100%

[@powskier]

The ordinary hyperextension is limited. But the reverse hyperextension machine is gold.

[@Sokok81]

Russians mostly talk that way. In Russian it was a soft talk

[@VieuxSaxe]

In Russia talk soft you

[@Sokok81]

@@VieuxSaxe don’t give a damn what’s happening in russia. Just happen to know that language

[@user-dl5nj3cp1f]

Nice Video Gregory. I do not watch much of these Videos, but I'm with you, constructive critique is ok, In a way you also would agree to.

[@odb667]

Gut!

[@peteuthai]

❤❤❤ always ascending

[@j.k.5008]

Ivan wasn't arrogant. That's russian friendlyness😉.

[@girea75]

You see, the problem here is with so called sports bloggers. You know in Russia we are having a lot of "a kind of speciallosts" in any weight lifting. They teach their viewers to lift everything like barbelles, dumbbells and what is more frustrating kettlebells. They didn't achieve anything in kettlebells and have no idea of lifting kettlebells hut they teach. And furthermore they claim to ha e the unique virtue. Yes, my coach like Serghey and Ivan Denisov, they different techniques of the snatch. Meanwhile they are both Masters of Sport and Masters of Honour in kettlebells. Pavel is no one. He is not considered by these elite professionals as a specialist in kettlebells. And even more to say, for example Ivan considers the turkish as a useless exercise but my trainer takes it seriously as the exercise to expand your physical ooportunities and to be so-called all-round developed and all-round fitted athlete. I train as a kettlebell lifter but at the same time I am crazy about kettlebell fitness. And my usual training consists of, like today for example, of three sets of clean and jerk and as GPP three sets of joint combination with kettlebells. And believe me when Ivan says something about kettlebells he is worthy to trust but those fake specialists like Tsatsulin or other bla-bla kettlebell influencers. I trust you, I admire the work out with the kettlebells you are performing because you are a specialist.

[@jonathanfrost944]

Pavel created a different system using the kettlebell. He’s not fake, he created something new and it was never meant to be the same as kettlebell sport. 2 different disciplines for 2 very different goals.

[@VieuxSaxe]

@@jonathanfrost944 It's funny that while Tsatsouline reinvented kettlebells for the West, in Russia there is a very vague understanding of hardstyle and many professionals consider such a technique simply CrossFit heresy.

[@jonathanfrost944]

@@VieuxSaxe it is strange. One of the great things about Gregory is he's always talking to both sides and appreciates both sides.

[@lebe-stark]

Appreciate your insights! I must say, that I'm not a Master Of Sport neither. However, I'm just fascinated with the tool and I take a similar approach like Pavel: I create my own path while learning from both sides. Please say Hi to Sergey from me!

[@DrRonaldSIpock]

There's some history behind all this of which you may not be aware. I have been into kettlebells for almost 30 years and here's what I experienced. In the beginning, Pavel claimed he was a master of sport, which he never was, and he marketed his products on the assumption that he had experience and authority to say what he said. A lot of the true masters of sport took umbrage at this and discredited him. Despite Pavel's lies, I have found some use in his high-tenstion techniques. I still use some of his protocols and realize gains thereby--regardless of Pavel's claims of authority. And that's what is behind all this vitriol. I agree that it is not cool to be disrespectful in a public forum, but I also see the motivation behind Ivan's attitude.

[@JRL6211]

Now that I did not know and it makes the, as you say well; vitriol, quite understandable.

[@lebe-stark]

I've heard about this too. Thanks for sharing! It would be nice to see if Pavel could somehow demonstrate his Master Of Sport status.

[@smokinjoe1264]

Gregory, he coppied one of his subscriber's comment from one of his videos - that last, which was in russian. That is not what Ivan has written. But anyway 100% agree with all you said!

[@lebe-stark]

Interesting; I didn't know this. He shared however, that this statement sums up his views about Pavel.

[@jmzan]

Only take away i got from pavel is "greasing the groove"

[@matriaxpunk]

I really don’t care about the debate between hardstyle and competition style, but I have noticed that Steve uses more of a competition or soft style, and yet he was a disciple of Pavel. Did he changed his style after learning with Pavel? And if he did, why do you think he did so? It’s kind of surprising that one of the most famous disciples of Pavel actually uses more of a soft style.

[@omegadeepblue1407]

Ivan where full Gopnik on those comments.

[@DeathswingKettlebell]

The only person we should be talking that way is V-Shred's kb tutorial

[@lebe-stark]

LOL

[@lollobobbo5220]

The point is that before Pavel just former soviet people knew about kettlebell, even if you don’t agree with Pavel is because of him if there are now kettlebell sport championships around the world and Ivan and other ks champions have a yt channel with more that five followers

[@jonathanfrost944]

Very true.

[@lebe-stark]

Agree 100%

[@peterrechmann9389]

People make pushups and other exercises harder, to get a better training effect. They do not go for the highest number of reps but for a more intense training. The same idea could be applied to kettlebell movements.

[@girea75]

I am totally with you when tell about being humble and susceptible. I don't agree with some technical features of doing the snatch preferred by Ivan 'cause I had been taught other style but you see, I am not against Pavel and I adore my trainer Rudnev because he is as you humble and he lacks that arrogance that you are talking about. When I asked my trianer about Pavel, he just that Pavel is not a certified kettlebell specialist and a master in kettlebells either. My trainer and Ivan have different style but the one is expressing his opinions in this way and the other just keeps calm and kettlebelling. And the problem doesn't stand with Pavel, Pavel is great because he is popularizing kettlebells but with a lot other sport bloggers who teach something really stupid things about kettlebells that might seriously injure inexperienced starters.

[@JRL6211]

I think another one of the great things about Pavel’s works, no matter what you think about him, is his emphasis on safety with kettlebell lifting. I don’t remember much word for word about the safety chapter in his book, ‘Simple and Sinister” other than the last line - “great job getting to the end of this chapter on safety, now … read it again.”

[@lebe-stark]

Thanks for sharing! 💪

[@arijitsinha6485]

®gregory..please make a video on how resistance band can be combined with kettlebell

[@VieuxSaxe]

Dude, you didn’t get it, he doesn’t do any “high pull”, his technique is based on explosive leg movement, pendulum, and body balance transfer. When the kettlebell comes forward from the pendulum, he makes an explosive movement with his legs with a small range, as if jumping back and the weight simply flies into space. You are very used to hip hinge and cannot feel this movement. Look how his quads work, they are simply monstrous)) In this video he shows how he gets power with his legs kzbin.info/www/bejne/nWaTemehh7yqm9U

[@juliehock6059]

At 81 I’ve been working out with Kettlbells for 15 years now, and have my own trainer but also watch different Kettlebell notaries and am interested in discussions. However, too much nit picking isnt helpful. Too much overthinking isnt helpful either. Pavel is still the guru.

[@lebe-stark]

You're mistaking nit picking with highly technical discussions.

[@hansmemling2311]

it's not because you don't like it that it isn't useful. It's pretty important for teachers and coaches to give the best information and help out there. How else do we improve?

[@arijitsinha6485]

May be this guy didn't know the proper technique for snatch. Both hard style and sports style snatch are excellent. Yes double bend and some minor stuff are there but if u hv a limited space and budget kb is an excellent tool. (16or 20kg

[@SaucedOso]

Unless I misunderstood, you called something he did trash. Just because it was followed by lol doesn't make it any less disrespectful on your part. Maybe that's what set him off? Not sure, but his last comment was definitely a bit harsh and disrespectful. Big fan of yours regardless

[@lebe-stark]

The "lol" follow up is a little banter but it still remains true, that his Get Up looks trash. Just like Rowing technique. No bad faith behind this statement, but I do see your point.

[@brazillianbully1095]

Yes

[@lebe-stark]

👉 E-Book - www.lebestark.ch/startseite-english/kettlebell-code-e-book/

[@steveshepherd333]

I’m wondering why this other guy injured his back, first time KB Snatch, with a 24kg bell … maybe not following correct form! He does come over, in his comments, very arrogant, he should learn to agree to disagree, with a more respectful attitude. And it doesn’t matter how good his physique is, his arrogance is a very ugly quality! Too much bravado, Ivan, too much! The TGU looks complicated, but when broken down into its separate movements, I’m sure its benefits are amazing … I may give it a whirl sometime, starting with no-weights at all, to make sure I get good form, then start using light weights, and building up to something manageable. Lebe, you rose above, Ivan’s, remarks, attitude and comments …….. a very attractive quality 👍🏼😇🥇 Thanks :-)

[@VieuxSaxe]

I watch a lot of Ivan's videos. He strikes me as a person who is not used to communicating via text online. He always seems very open and kind with his students, other coaches and in the meetings he conducts, but his comments are always very curt and dry. I haven't interacted with him personally, so this is just my guess.

[@lebe-stark]

That's why I need him on the podcast! I've heard stories about him, so I definitely want to talk to him!

[@fastrob6828]

If you watch top girevoy sport competitors doing the snatch, they barely bend their knees or hips at all, and they hit massive rep counts. That's the difference to me between the styles, which makes "hard-style" with a deliberately deeper range of motion seem inefficient by comparison. I would guess this would be why he thinks they're trash - they're overworking the ROM to get the same result

[@RomShepard]

I have to say that translation is not correct in that case, the expression is much softer than it has been translated. I think it is why he wrote it in Russian, as you cannot make the same point in English.

[@lebe-stark]

Appreciate the insights! A native speaker translated his words to me. If he doesn’t mean it that way, I stand corrected -> hence my invite to our podcast. 🔥

[@user-bm2vs2fm1q]

Надеюсь автоперевод донесëт нормально. Но Грегори не договаривает, что ему в комментариях также указали, что Иван цитирует другого человека, который занимался по методам Цацулина. В целом же, методы Цацулина выглядят красиво, а методы Ивана полезными. Вот и вся суть)

[@mintyfresh436]

I'd love to see a podcast, but does he speak English? So one thing I've learned since training with kettlebells for almost 4 years now, you gotta train for what youe genetics allow for. Someone can boast that their style of training is better all they want, but if you don't have the spinal strength, or shoulder rotation and even coordination (just cant develop any through your life) then its not the style for you. And some people can take the benefits of both styles and get in the greatest shape they've been in when they turn in. It's a shame to see we went from all of us wanting to be our best physically before social media, to becoming zealots with the advent of social media. People were much more open before.

[@lebe-stark]

That's the goal of my podcast. To have these conversations and come closer to the truth. He does speak English so I hope he'll answer me.

[@mintyfresh436]

@@lebe-stark ohh perfect, I hope he comes on, he might be biased but the man has experience and wisdom that a good chunk of us can benefit from.

[@MarkyMarkWalberg]

a russian here: wrong translation (of the vulgar slang), what he said was 'the hell with that silly snatch of yours' it's like when you wave your hand with disbelief. The machine identified the pronoun вы/you and thought it was an address to you specifically

[@lebe-stark]

I've asked a native to translate it…

[@MarkyMarkWalberg]

@@lebe-stark probably he\she wasn't aware of the context or of the way Denisov speaks in real life. Anyways it certainly doesn't mean neither 'go away' (literally) nor 'fck u'. It's closer to go away but in the sense of 'stop (whoever does) bothering me with that silly snatch'

[@caseystengel3120]

“F you with your bullshit snatch!” lol 😂

[@Shifftee]

The translation is wrong. The comment said something more like “To hell with this snatch thing” in a frustrated way. And it wasn’t Ivan’s comment but something he copied and pasted from his channel in order to show that Tsatsouline’s advices caused injury and frustration to a person towards kettlebell sport.

[@TheCulturedTiger]

It’s a cast iron suitcase right ? This is about KZbin money not strength . Right

[@ralphnevill6171]

Not sure if I understand Ivan's beef with Pavel and the snatch. Is it Pavel's promotion of the hard style snatch or something else? Maybe its as you say he is jealous of Pavel's popularity.... I've watched a number of Ivan's snatch videos and while I don't speak Russian and am not sure all he is saying, but its obvious he's trying to get the other lifter in video to use his snatch technique. They try it and then go back to what they were doing at the end of the video. The problem with Ivan's technique as I see it is he has hardly any back swing as the bell hardly clears behind his knees and yet he is so powerful with his upper torso he throws 24 or 32 kg bells like they are feathers. However, unless you are 2m+ and 110+ kg this technique may not work for you. I've tried using his technique, but I'm 1.72 m and 71 kg and I definitely need more of a back swing for longer sets. For comparison Ksenia Dedukhina has a rather pronounced back swing but seems to be able to knock off snatches at a 20+/min pace for what seems to be hours! I find trying to copy her style works better for me

[@lebe-stark]

Interesting perspective and great observation! Alain League (Kettlebell Sport Athlete from Spain) shared similar sentiments about the "amplitude" in the Back Swing; which is preference and depends on body size.

[@red57dryad]

You have a true passion for health and training. Da dude criticizing you just can't handle the roid rage. The difference between chemical living and clean living.. that's it.. simple.

[@yian43]

I find your videos and information more exciting than Ivan and Pavel because us experienced lifters know what they teach, but I enjoy you looking for new things and new style. Keep up your bruce lee path and cutting edge views its way more interesting to watch than same old GS and hardstyle I already know. Lets find the real style of no style

[@lebe-stark]

I appreciate that!

[@jamesw1698]

He hurt himself in an overhead move and says I'm strong from deadlifts and squats... Maybe his shoulder is weak and couldn't handle the ballistic aspect of the lift.

[@svo47]

I am sorry if i dont wathed till the end, but read Ivans comment - He is quoting forum user about disappointment in Pavels method. And Ivan is not a fan of power kb movements. But asking Ivan about other methods other than sport kb lifting is meaningless. There is a video of Him, where He answers why it is better to use specialized training eq for athletes strength training/periodization - with deliberate purpose of not foiling the techinque of sport lift. Sport lifting is an endurance event with finite strength requrement. Everything else will wase of athletes and coaches time. Bad english, ate dictionary.

[@Fuzzball]

After watching both your videos, it seems like he primarily takes offense with your swing when demonstrating his version of the high pull. He does the kettlebell sport swing but it looks to me like you are doing a hard-style swing.

[@lisapet160]

1) Downscale his emotions by the factor of 2, may be 3. Eastern Europe is where people are more open in expressing theirs opinion and may sound impolite because they are not trying to mask themselves with pretentious politeness. This is observed in mixed origin engineering teams when a) false smiling westerners are offended by East Europeans when the latter tell that this or that idea will not work because physics has this and that laws. Not with "Oh, that's a great suggestion..." BS. b) false smiling westerners are complaining to management when feeling that they are being cut out of innovative discussions because of a), or when taking plain, without decorations, criticism of particular module design or functionality as a personal offense . 2) He contradicts himself. He and his trainees told on multiple occasions that most of the injuries they are getting while handling light weights during warmup and cooldown. Their strong bodies are not ready for improper technique even with lighter weights. Those 24 kg KB inflicted injury tells that his back was not ready for hard style KBing even he can handle heavier weights with proper competition technique. 3) I translated one of his fable on this channel before. As a "reminder", it's about 3 men fishing in 1 boat, each of them having own unique reason to go fishing. "Same is with KBs..." where his words. Now, he tells that we should be fishing to get a trophy? I think, it was emotional. Just pay respect to his talent, he acknowledges different reasons why people go for KBs.

[@Shifftee]

Bro, the Russian comment Ivan posted was not his but a copy and paste from one of his videos. What he basically meant by that is that people who followed Tsatsouline’s advices injured themselves and eventually got frustrated with kettlebells in general. So Ivan’s message was “Look what he’s done! Tsatsouline undermines people’s health and passion for our sport”.

[@lebe-stark]

Thanks for sharing! 💪

[@vyacheslav4217]

After reading comments it became evident, that people and Gregory misunderstood what Ivan Denisov was trying to say. Ivan didn't express any negativity or rudeness towards Gregory. What was translated as "f*ck you" is a figure of speech expressing Ivan's discontent with a snatch, nothing more. Using that figure of speech as an insult doesn't even make sense grammatically in russian language.

[@lebe-stark]

Interesting that I get this feedback. Ivan‘s comments were translated for me by a native Russian.

[@vyacheslav4217]

@@lebe-stark Russian is my mother tongue also. I asure you, Ivan wasn't trying to be rude or insult anyone in that message

[@lebe-stark]

I appreciate your feedback nonetheless, brother!

[@moirajevtic5527]

Sorry Gregory u always humble respectful always he’s got a bit off a chip on his small shoulders, 😢

[@BuJammy]

Still not really sure what all this is about...

[@ibnsabeel9466]

Can’t help but wonder if sometimes the gear (steroids) are talking when certain athletes overreact from opinions that they don’t agree with.

[@zacholson4901]

Is anyone else wondering how a world champion could injure his back doing a 24 kg snatch? 😂

[@eamonob84]

I believe this was long before he was a world champion.

[@davidmcminn1843]

❤👉🤘💪

[@K_j_M]

It's all very well telling you you're doing it wrong but, not actually saying why is pretty lame. Regardless of his accolades, he seems like a bit of a prick

[@initdialog]

You can't really translate this as FU. It is more of between leave me alone and FU. There are subtle differences in Russian that are lost in translation to English.

[@lebe-stark]

I had a native speaker translate this.

[@mr.stingray8709]

Vielleicht ist Ivan einfach nicht gut drauf zur Zeit, weil er seinen Einberufungsbescheid bekommen hat?

[@ru8775]

😂 nach Gaza ??

[@lebe-stark]

Machst du Spass oder meinst du das ernst?

[@mr.stingray8709]

@@lebe-stark Ich finde, Ivan hat sich sowohl dir als auch Pavel gegenüber deutlich im Ton vergriffen. Und muss dann verkraften, dass es "Gegenwind" gibt. Insofern war mein Kommentar ihm gegenüber schärfer, als ich das andernfalls getan hätte. Wenn dir das aber unangemessen war, kann ich das auch verstehen und bin dir nicht böse, wenn du zwecks Niveausteigerung des Kommentarbereiches meinen Kommentar löschst. 😉

[@ru8775]

@@lebe-stark meinst du mich ? In die Ukraine wird er als nicht normaler Mensch einberufen genau wie nach Gaza 😂 Scheiss Politiker die sind alle Mörder und zwar Weltweit Skrupellos und Eiskalt Ein blöder Joke und eine blöde Antwort darauf von mir 😄

[@Taz10348]

Folks, look it is that simple: if you understand the human body (see Esther Gokhale's work) and you understand sport performance-dictated focus you can take a wise conclusion. Ghirisport is fantastic, i have a direct experience in it. Road bike races are too, i got a bigger experience there. Is the race bike the best for your biomecanics? Absolutly not. Is more performant in races, IF you can handle it? YES KB Pavel style vs Ghirisport is exactly the same. You want to race with your bike, be competitive? You have to take some risks and train like all the best racers. You want a more sustainable general training that uses the KB but is not directed to a kb sport? train like Pavel. Ivanov, you are a big champion, don't make the error how many and many people who have success in a discipline who pretend to be in charge ant teach all the others wha's wrong. Talk about witch you got real experience, competence and success, like a great champion in his discipline.

[@noosphericaltarzan]

I think the reason for the divide is the massive amount of bs coming out of hardstyle camps, at least up until the recent past. All of that framed against the reality that hardstyle is not very effective at what it claims to do. If you want to develop power and peak force output, then learn weightlifting and plyometrics. You could run kettlebell sport or something akin to it for cardiovascular training and power endurance. Use weightlifting to actually increase strength and peak force production. Where does hardstyle even fit into that? Nowhere. It's not that I hate hardstyle. I take some of their ideas sometimes. It's the overselling of it that bothers me. If you want to get beyond basic fitness and conditioning, you kind of should consider getting a barbell and some plates. For many people, hardstyle is probably fine, since they really won't need much other equipment than some kettlebells. But it's almost a terminal physical culture in that there is so little point stacking that with a barbell strength program; whereas I could use long cycle for conditioning and cardiorespiratory adaptations -- and barbells to build absolute strength, power, and hypertrophy.

[@daleh1234]

If your ego is big and your brain is small, Kettlebell training won't help you at all. 🤣

[@dondo4341]

Ah, c'mon dont observe every word of ivan too critical. he is a russian original. As the kettlebell is

[@lebe-stark]

I've talked to a lot of Russians on my podcast. They never used this kind of language when asked about Hardstyle. But I'm now learning, that these don't seem to be his own words; yet he still seems to agree with the sentiment of the statement.

[@dondo4341]

@@lebe-stark 🙏🏻❤️

[@tomsaint786]

I find so strange that kettlebell almost has a politics to it… it’s just weight training. You don’t see bodybuilders squabbling with powerlifters even tho they train , eat different yet use the same apparatus

[@lebe-stark]

It's (unfortunately) part of the human psyche. I'm not so sure about your last sentence.. lol

[@jacob-shaffer]

I've definitely seen some squabbling on YT between bodybuilders, powerlifters, and weightlifters. Crossfitters are in that mix too somewhere.

[@michaelb466]

You misread his comment and then unjustifiably lectured him based on your misunderstanding. The comment in Russian was posted somewhere else and the tone of that comment is apparently appropriate for where it was originally posted. It's not even clear that Ivan was the one who wrote it, he just happens to agree with the substance. The part in English is saying as much: 'That is a real comment about Pavel's style and method I copied from my page there.' In several of his videos in Russian, he goes at length into why his techniques are better for the back.

[@lebe-stark]

I don't lecture Ivan at all. If he shares these views, he seems to be in agreement with them (even if they're not his own).

[@yosefco3]

I agree with everything you said about the way of writing. But Ivan is right about the snatch. Could you give me one advantage of Pavel's snatch style over Ivan's style? The hard style doesn't create more explosiveness than the sport style. It doesn't use the entire body in an efficient way, it makes more pressure on the back and the joints. The sport style snatch (and swing) is better than the hard style in any criteria you consider!

[@jonathanfrost944]

Sport style is much harder to learn. And while I prefer it now, for 20 years I used the hardstyle. Lots of people get very strong and put up good numbers using the hard style.

[@yosefco3]

@@jonathanfrost944 i agree that its a little harder to learn, but when i done hard style swings, i got back pain even after 40-50. Today I could do hundreds of sport style swings with 20kg, without a problem( i'm 45yo). the movement feels more natural, and it's absolutely worth the effort to learn it.

[@jonathanfrost944]

@@yosefco3 I agree completely, and have moved to sport style from hardstyle myself. In simple and sinister Pavel has people doing sets of 10 swings. and they always do lower reps. I have seen people get great results with both styles, but in have come to the conclusion that outside of full contact fighting, kettlebell sport may be the toughest mental and physical thing a person can do. I can't believe anyone can do 10 minutes of long cycle with 32kg bells!

[@yosefco3]

@@jonathanfrost944 i agree completely too 😅 have a great day!

[@kesco88]

never meet your heroes? lol..

[@jimcortez3293]

In many ways, you are more than a trainer, as you have undertaken the role of critiquing other people involved in the activity of kettlebell exercise/sports. In fact, having watched a number of your videos, I have come away with a bad taste. How about you do your thing, and let others alone? Also, when you have a podcast, and get folks like Valery Fedorenko on, how about being more quiet, and much more respectful/thankful? People also communicate in ways, that they would never do in person. For example, perhaps I'm wrong, but if you went to a gym where Ivan was training, I wouldn't be surprised if you were quiet, on the periphery, and had nothing at all to say to him. No?

[@lebe-stark]

Ivan shared his thoughts on my channel, I reacted.

[@DymokKumok]

As a Russian guy I can understand Ivan's mode of comunication even though I don't appreciate it. It's not only about his personal character, it's also about tough history of our country which keeps on being tough till today.

[@lebe-stark]

Thanks for sharing! 💪

[@a_fuckin_spacemarine7514]

Bro hurt his back as a newbie caise he didnt iniw what he was doing and then blamed Pavel😂 i also hurt my back with kettlebells as a newbie, doing way too much, way too soon, becoase of my previous athletic background. The difference? I didn't hold a grudge and realized it was my fault.

[@fuckieoffie8221]

This he said she said style video is so tiring . Reminds me of boxing world where KZbinrs just do this for trolling content . Just do videos on exercise not pointing out what others say or do .

[@daltonrumfield8190]

Yes

[@lebe-stark]

Here you go: go.lebestark.ch/workout-guide-en-fb