F1 Hybrid Era Gearbox Analysis

[@Casey_Schmidt]

The technology in these boxes is crazy. I can see why you like them so much! They might be less interesting than engines to most people but when you know what goes on inside a gearbox, it really makes you realize that they are just as complex as the engine.

[@IndeterminateDesign]

Absolutely, the technology is amazing. I can't fathom the sheer number of hours of design and testing that goes into these is gearboxes, not to mention the budget needed.

[@alicantino59]

I just finished watching your videos and wow, great job. I've long been a fan of this style of transmission. One thing I really liked was the idea of using electronics so that shifts can be executed with perfect timing (1 gear's rotational position in relation another's) thereby producing both better shifts and minimal wear on the dogs, i.e. less maintenance.

[@IndeterminateDesign]

Thanks. I'm really hoping I can incorporate shift alignment into this model, but I know it can be pretty complex to accomplish.

[@brianb-p6586]

Bicycle gearboxes - both in-hub planetary designs and the frame-mounted parallel-shaft Pinion series - use shift mechanisms placed within the shaft. Of course the power level is orders of magnitude lower, and they don't need to be able to back-drive.

[@beachboardfan9544]

Would you believe theres not one video on YT about the timing gear arrangement on a F1 engine! 😉😉

[@bULLSchr]

Great video!

[@IndeterminateDesign]

Thank! Glad you enjoyed it.

[@czhang336]

The honda transmission shown reminds me of a ball-lock shifter. It's used in frc and also some low power motorcycles.

[@IndeterminateDesign]

I agree, I'm sure that's where Honda got the idea from given their experience in motorcycles. I want to make a model of that gearbox as well, but I can't completely wrap my brain around some of the more intricate parts of it yet.

[@FirstLast-tx3yj]

@@IndeterminateDesign so the 3d printed seamless gearbox u did is a replica of the hybrid era gearbox or the old f1 gearbox?

[@IndeterminateDesign]

@@FirstLast-tx3yj The replica I did was of the 2006-2013 regulation gearbox, the Xtrac P1044. The last years of these cars did have KERS. I would like to create a replica of a the latest seamless gearboxes used in the 2014- Current.

[@beachboardfan9544]

Why nose fed shafts, why not an oil squirter to shoot it right where the gears mesh?

[@IndeterminateDesign]

That's a good question. Based on earlier F1 gearboxes, I believe there are oil squirters but I don't know where they're aimed. The shafts are fed that way because the mainshaft gears are rollerized and spin freely on the mainshaft. I assume that they need pressurized oil due the RPM and load.

[@beachboardfan9544]

@@IndeterminateDesign Seems crazy just for roller bearings

[@IndeterminateDesign]

I think, and this is just a guess, it's because the the way the hubs for the gears work. The hub has to spin very freely when the internal clutches are not engaged, so maybe it's like a fluid bearing. I think when I have a model of this it will be easier to explain, but in the drawings I've seen there are actually two roller bearings, one inside the other with the hub separating them, and there are oil feed holes in the bearing races.

[@beachboardfan9544]

@@IndeterminateDesign Interesting, only time I've seen bearing setups like that is in high speed spindles. Theres a term for that type of bearing arrangement, but I cant seem to think of it.

[@scarbstecheverythingtechni8171]

From my observation, the changes in layout from na-v8 to turbo-hybrid are minimal. It retains the dog ring engagement operated by two hydraulically operated barrels. The changes are more evolutionary, more robust dog ring design, more compact barrel positioning. AFAIK The Honda design seamless was never raced, only a twin barrel type (of which they were one of the the pioneers)

[@IndeterminateDesign]

That's super interesting. I wish we could get pictures of the barrel setup they're using. Unfortunately, it looks like when Yuki's gearbox broke in half they shift barrels were most likely still attached to the front gearbox cover. Have you heard any details about the clutch setup used inside the mainshaft? I know Xtrac and some researchers in Japan had several patents come out around 2010-2012 for different clutched mainshaft designs. I think I'm leaning towards the Xtrac ratchet clutch design that I showed a picture of in the video given it's simple robust design. I also thought Honda had raced a single barrel gearbox in 2009 with the one way clutch mainshaft hub (the more complicated internal mainshaft barrel was a 2 way, seamless up and downshift). I'll look and see if I can find the article on the Honda R&D website I hope someday they will release a complete history of these gearboxes.

[@scarbstecheverythingtechni8171]

@@IndeterminateDesign check your email 😉

[@king_br0k]

so these transmissions are somewhat like DCTs?

[@IndeterminateDesign]

The end result is similar to dual clutch gearboxes, but the rules don't allow for DCT and there's not enough space either. Each gear has a very small set of 2 way clutches that lock up based on the differential speed between the two selected gears. Hopefully it will be clearer once I have 3d printed prototype that I can show.

[@king_br0k]

@@IndeterminateDesign I think I understand, but most of this stuff is above me

[@IndeterminateDesign]

I'm not sure I really understand either, but I'm going to copy the design and see if it works the way it's described in the papers I've read.