Under the Banner of Heaven - A Conversation with McKay Coppins and Patrick Mason

Under the Banner of Heaven is a recent 7-part dramatized series aired on Hulu by about the horrific 1984 murders of Brenda and Erica Lafferty by brothers Ron and Dan Lafferty. Like the book it’s based on, the series paints a very grim portrait of Latter-day Saint faith and culture, and has been both praised and panned by critics.
In this episode, McKay Coppins and Patrick Mason join Bill Turnbull to explore why the series has had such widely divergent receptions and discuss the validity of Jon Krakauer’s fundamental thesis: that religion and violence go hand in hand.
McKay Coppins is a staff writer for The Atlantic who writes frequently about faith and politics; he published a superb piece about the series at the request of his editor at the magazine.
Patrick Mason is the Leonard Arrington Chair of Mormon History and Culture at Utah State University - he’s also a frequent and valued guest on this show and advisor to Faith Matters.
A MONUMENT HONORING AFRICAN AMERICAN PIONEERS
We wanted to let you know about an exciting event that’s being organized by our friend, previous guest, and Faith Matters advisor, Mauli Bonner. At 10am on July 22, at This Is The Place Heritage Park in Salt Lake City, there will be a dedication of a new monument honoring enslaved pioneers, including Green Flake, who drove the first wagon as part of a vanguard group through emigration canyon on July 22, 1847. This will mark the 175th anniversary of that historic moment. We think that this will be an unforgettable event and will help all of us remember and honor the vital role early Black pioneers played in our faith and community. We expect government and Church leaders will be in attendance, and you can find out all the details at greenflakemovie.com.

[@Jdog1681]

Mckay and Patrick are stone cold professionals. Great podcast and masterfully written article. I think I may have to get a subscription to The Atlantic now...

[@leem3299]

Patrick's view is helpful and quite balanced.

[@tawnyachristensen7310]

Brenda was my same age when she died, I had a baby daughter the same age as hers. I grew up not far from where the murders happened. This story had a big impact on me. She died because of the Fundamental Mormon teachings of Polygamy and Patriarchy. As a lifelong Mormon it still amazes me that Krakauer was the one who taught me that Joseph Smith was a polygamist!

[@maddssmithy]

Have never been a member of the church and I appreciated this discussion and the piece by Coppins in The Atlantic. Not even religious but it's clear we are living in a very anti-religious age. Very easy to pick on Mormonism and members of the church in general and it is incredibly tolerated. Both Patrick and McKay are very balanced here criticizing it while saying it could be accurate in the shows portrayal of women and non whites in the church and in Utah. Loved this discussion and would appreciate more discussion on portrayals of LDS life in pop culture from this account. There has been much of that lately.

[@SouthwestORV]

Enjoyed this. Thank you.

[@georgiaborn6236]

👏👏👏Thank you for this topic

[@jenb7756]

The crime story was a mess. Using the investigation as a storytelling technique didn't work. No detective, especially a hardened city detective, would put their eye up to a bullet hole. And the interrogation...SMH. I love the questions and faith concerns that the speakerphone bring up. I wish there was more of a space for those discussions

[@lindsaywait8763]

Interesting commentary. While I enjoyed the series, I agree that it doesn't lend itself to starting conversations except within likeminded circles. I most strongly related to Brenda and the pressure she was under to have kids and drop her career ambitions, that pressure still exists. Regarding the mormon power conversation I think the church has an inordinate monetary and land ownership power compared to their active population, which in my mind is more meaningful than the social/political power in the intermountain west which is waning as the active mormon population shrinks as a %.

[@ndallon]

Under the Banner of Heaven is "Saturday's Warrior" for ExMormoms with an ax to grind.

[@dallinsinger2636]

I agree with skylark, frankly they could've gone harder on the church, but I think it was just right. LDS people deserve to know the real history of their church in proper context, and it says a lot how much that scares devout LDS people and leaders.

[@kp6553]

@@skylark1250 there is no evidence that Brigham Young ordered the Mountain Meadows attack. You got played. Please research this for yourself

[@kp6553]

@@skylark1250 this is a conspiracy theory on par with QAnon fever dreams

[@maddssmithy]

is saturdays warrior anti mormon? just looked it up and it was put on by BYU? just looked it up and it doesn't sound too anti mormon

[@nathanharris8896]

​@maddssmithy No, the comment was saying that Under the Banner of Heaven is as much of a cultural touchstone for angry ex mormons as Saturday's warriors is for mormons.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

During his interview on Mormon stories, Patrick Mason admitted that he thinks polygamy was not of God and that Joseph made the whole thing up and sinned. My impression is that Patrick is not a believer but stays in for his career.

[@minaguta4147]

Really? You had to bring on two dudes who have already said the series was trash? Nice balance you have going here.

[@kp6553]

The show is hate. Why do we need to give a platform to hate in the name of "balanced." That sort of "balance" belongs on fox news-- not in serious conversations

[@jonjahr3403]

@@kp6553 Just because the show addresses the ugly side of church doesn't make it hateful. Sometimes truth hurts!