Imagining a Four-Stage Church - A Conversation with Patrick Mason

We’ve been thinking and talking a lot recently about a phenomenon that sometimes happens and that we’ve occasionally felt ourselves - something you might call a “spiritual whiplash.” It can happen when we’re really uplifted by something: maybe a book we’ve read, an inspiring group of people we’ve been around, or even a transcendental experience in nature. We’re feeling fed, and our cup is full… but then, we come back down to earth. We’re faced with the realities of the mundane, and the imperfections and humanity of the people all around us, including ourselves.
So - what are we supposed to do when this happens? Is it realistic to expect to stay in this spiritually uplifted state all the time? What about when even our Church meetings don’t feel like they’re recharging our batteries, but instead are draining them? When we’re feeling fed by something, how do we take that feeling with us to share in our everyday settings and communities, rather than resenting the contrast between them? How can we look at members of our communities as God might, rather than judging them for not meeting our standards - or even judging them for what we perceive as them judging us?
To discuss these issues, we brought back a trusted friend and mentor, Patrick Mason. Patrick is the Leonard Arrington Chair of Mormon History and Culture at Utah State University, and a frequent guest on this show and advisor to Faith Matters. He’s spoken and written quite a bit on this topic, including in his book "Planted". He was an amazing conversation partner as we worked our way through some of these questions. We can’t thank him enough for coming back on.
As a note, we referenced our recent Restore gathering several times in the conversation, including presentations that were given by Brian McLaren, Jared Halverson, and Jody Moore. We also reference a few faith development frameworks that you’ll hear, including Brian’s which you can learn more about in his book "Faith After Doubt".

[@aubreegittins9271]

What a beautiful discussion. It gives me hope for the church and actually makes me want to stay. Thank you for giving me hope and something to work toward.

[@awfulwaffle1341]

Loved the discussion. Tim’s bushy hair is great too.

[@mhalvo]

Tim, Aubrey and Patrick this is the perfect follow up to Restore. It has given me a structure to act upon I what felt at Restore. Thank you so much for all you are doing.

[@brenthenry9866]

This was outstanding and so helpful for me. Patrick is brilliant and Tim and Aubrey ask the best questions, the hard question. This podcast has been a lifeline for me in my faith journey!

[@patriciahansonhubner5733]

Enlightening conversation in so many ways! But especially about how all stages of faith play a role and the importance of being curious and being willing to learn from one another. Zion consists of all 4 “stages” - very beautiful

[@whitneylin4297]

Wow, this was absolutely phenomenal. We should all pray that we can help create this four stage church where everyone feels at home. I believe God will help and inspire us as we pray for this righteous purpose. I really loved what you shared about how…I think it was Brother Halverson…was able to make a comment in Sunday School to be a bridge between someone in stage 1 and other people in the room who were no longer in stage 1. That kind of person is who God wants us to be! This discussion gives me a new, more enlightened perspective to bring to church each week. I couldn’t be more grateful for Faith Matters!!

[@markchristiansen9611]

Great thoughts in this episode. You have given me a great challenge, to accept and love people who are in all the stages. It's been hard the past few years not to be annoyed at other members, to the point that I don't want to even be with them. But loving and accepting and serving are exactly what Jesus did, isn't it? Good thing God love, accepts, and helps me. I love this podcast so much and look forward to the new episodes every week. I'm hoping the information from the Restore conference will become available to people who couldn't attend.

[@laurimuse1390]

Joined the church 30 years ago from Catholicism is Ky. I’ve been through all stages and struggles Alone and with my 7 kids and husband! My best friends are Evangelicals and Pentecostal. We homeschool! Soooo it seems we need full measure of humility! If we are humble and open hearted, we can allow all stages and personalities and experiences.

[@leem3299]

Just started listening, but this is good stuff

[@vickidaniels9837]

At 36:51 Brother Mason gives great advice on charity.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

Since I saw the interview with Patrick Mason on Mormon Stories, in which he admitted that he believes Joseph smith made up the whole polygamy thing up and that he sinned when he had relations with all of these women / girls, I think he is not a true believer but stays in the church for his career.

[@laurimuse1390]

Are Latter Day Saints ready for Evangekical fire? Pentecostal Spirit and Gifts of the Spirit? Catholic reverence and holy days? Are we ready for Jewish traditions and study habits? Thoughts? Do we really mean bring all you have to us??????

[@laurimuse1390]

You see a lot I don’t. We need to create communities of love and acceptance and tight small groups… My evangelical friends have these tight weekly small groups who worship together and serve each other weekly even. They have meaningful Bible study groups… I do think small groups would be huge benefit for us! To connect deeper too

[@douglaswhitney5569]

I sure wish closed captioning was abailable on thse podcasts. I am Seberely hearing impaired and can understand very little

[@Mike-ly7ev]

I enjoyed the discussion. When I get the digital copy of the conference I need to revisit the 4 stages of Faith that was shared. One comment about separation. it’s a dinner table discussion or with a small group in the ward, to create in a sense a church while being part of the bigger Church was hard to swallow for me. My fear of people doing this with the intention that they need more, might possibly put themselves above the ward. It may lead to a space where satan can work a spell of pride and falling away. If done in good faith and to squeeze out more sense of the doctrine and spirit felt in church, great. But, to separate and identify with a few people and not identify with The Church collectively might be a slippery slope. Just my thoughts. Maybe I took the comment in a wrong direction. Hope I made sense and wasn’t jibberish. All good stuff just the space and separation is a new concept to me and didn’t set well.

[@mhalvo]

I think that Aubrey's comments about the danger of narcissism is adressing this valid concern. One cannot think that "i get it and all of these other poor folks are just not as evolved as i".

[@joshua_sykes]

“I think I had just given a _Planted_ about fireside” 16:59 🤔🤔🤔 Haha 😆 This is the book he mentions: www.amazon.com/Planted-Belief-Belonging-Age-Doubt/dp/1629721816

[@samueljeppsen9785]

I feel like I came into a conversation in the middle, or into a movie that was half over. I have no idea what this conversation was about. What's a 4-stage church? What's a lot of things you talked about???

[@joshua_sykes]

@SamuelJeppsen9785 I hear ya! - The stages of faith mentioned here are discussed and explained in an interview with Brian McLaren in episode 67 of the podcast: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y6Ldh3l8mMeXjqM

[@samueljeppsen9785]

@@joshua_sykes thx Josh

[@Sayheybrother8]

I paid for the digital recorded version of the restore conference and haven’t seen a link. What am I doing wrong?

[@renatep.7566]

It said that it would take a few weeks before receiving them via email, at least this is what I understood.

[@faithmattersfoundation]

Correct, we are in the process of compiling and editing together all the footage and slides! Emails will go out to digital pass holders when we’ve got that done in the next few weeks!

[@Sayheybrother8]

@@faithmattersfoundation awesome!!! Thanks so much!

[@jackiemorgan3139]

Very interesting discussion! I have often felt out of place in our church meetings and have felt tentative asking questions or making comments during Sunday School or Relief Society. I felt hope while listening to this podcast! Perhaps I am not an unusual Mormon after all! For those of us that could not make it to the Restore Conference, what encompasses or defines the four stages of faith? Also, can the digital copies of the Restore Conference be available for those who were not able to attend?

[@Sayheybrother8]

@@faithmattersfoundation Instill haven’t seen a link to digital conference. Let me know if you’ve sent them out already and I just missed it. Thank you

[@tawnyachristensen7310]

I feel that you are skirting the issue, the attitudes and teachings that are so offensive come out of the mouths of top leadership. They are accepted wholly by the "good and obedient" church members, when you show courage and express a differing view you are ostracized by these "good" members.