FAKE vs Genuine Power Semiconductors: Which One Performs Better?

[@fredfred2363]

My business which used a Chinese assembly house almost went bust because of this. We had so many units fail in the field, we first thought it was the customers doing something wrong. Then we thought there was a design issue. It was only when one of the Chinese team told me that they had sourced the components from an unknown supplier that I realised the problem. We had to recall and sometimes pay to have people in different locations around the world return them in exchange for replacements. It cost us a LOT of money to fix. It almost destroyed us. Lesson learned.

[@davidrobertson1980]

Hope you kept up the quality control Fred, obviously you are an honest man and gave your profits to save your customers - well done

[@pa4tim]

I have done some research for a customer who sells parts. It were fake IGBT's. Performance on a Tek 576 CT showed much less performance. Under the microscope and size measurements it was visible they were sanded and then relabeld. Besides that the pins were soldered. After removing the solder it was visible the spotwelded new pins to the remains of the old ones. So this IGBT was a used one. The solder is there only to hide the spotwelding and step in thickness. I have also seen parts that were sold dead or a complete other type of part. (Like a double diode sold as a mosfet, or a transistor sold as an IGBT etc) I also decapped the parts. The same tricks are also done with IC's. I have seen fake Viper DCDC controllers. (Also a test I did for a company) All parts where bought by my customers direct from China (Temu, Ali, Ebay) But that is not a supprise. Faking is normal business in China. A Chinese zoo use dogs painted as Panda babies to scam their visitors. People paint pink hogs black because they are more expensive, Female ducks are painted to look like more expensive male ducks. Old meat is painted reddish to look fresh. The same they do with fish. The biggest waterfall in Asia is in China and even that is a fake (They pump up the water through pipes and release it on the top). Overflow other countries whit Cheap stuff, sponsored by the party and even using slave labour and kill the locale competition until the whole world depends on China.

[@Telephonebill51]

They're even able to make their citizens NOT look like insects...

[@Qwerty.Asdfgh-Diode]

Usually you like to get cheapest part from ali-express but then you need this multi million dollar equipment

[@Cineenvenordquist]

Eh, those covers hadn't been proven on many explosions. Where's even the blue smoke cleaner!?

[@wes3428]

@@Cineenvenordquist They clearly have a large supply of scopes! The scope is inside the explosion cover lol

[@Ismsanmar]

@@wes3428 They are the manufacturers, how cannot they have a infinite supply of them?

[@suntzu1409]

Sounds quite profitable (for keysight)

[@Poebbelmann]

You only needed to measure the R_on to tell the fake one is fake, which you can propably do with very cheap equipment.

[@raymitchell9736]

I worked at HP/Agilent in the late 90's for the Semiconductor Test division in Santa Clara site as a firmware engineer. I worked on the Versatest V3300 tester and designed firmware to run the tester to create a 3D Schmoo plot code that ran the tester to characterize DUT... Those were good times!

[@theantipope4354]

PbF does indeed mean "Lead Free" 'Pb' is the chemical name for lead, & the 'F' stands for free. The other common acronym for lead-free in the electronics industry is "ROHS", which means "Reduction of Hazardous Substances".

[@SatyajitRoy2048]

Very informative and incidentally I bought 50pcs IRFP260N and I was lucky at least for not to see that their marking is similar to the genuine one. I will break one apart tomorrow to see the die size. Your videos are always very interesting to watch.

[@car9167]

Or measure the on resistance through an oscilloscope

[@SatyajitRoy2048]

@@car9167 Yes, that is what I will plan.

[@Spark-Hole]

,So What is the result

[@SatyajitRoy2048]

@@Spark-Hole The one I bought from the local market is still genuine, featuring a larger silicon die like the one shown in this video for authentic product. The markings are also similar.

[@NewScope8]

If you run them in a dc-dc converter with much higher switching frequency, where the switching loss may be the majority of the losses, the “fake” MOSFET may actually perform better than the “genuine” one because it is faster. Also, the fake one may perform no difference or even better in linear applications such as an audio amplifier, within its limitations. Anyway, a fake one is not always worse. The biggest problem is that we don’t know what it was before it was remarked into something else.

[@ICHIKEN1]

Fake one ia suitable for low current, high switching frequency applications.

[@bjtaudio]

yes, the fake on performed better at high switching freq, as its smaller inside and has less gate charge and capacitance, but u have missed the point, there are other smaller faster mosfets that are suited for this, when u need a big mosfet, u don't want lies and fraud, as they are expensive, there will always be fakes.

[@mehow357]

It's not about finding a case when fake mosfet can perform best as it can, but comparison of fake to genuine one. If you need fast, low current mosfet - in the first place you would pick different one basing on different desired parameters. It's like picking a heavy duty truck and someone gave you some small compact car arguing: "but this car can go slightly faster". No. You need, picked and paid for slower, but heavy duty truck because that's what you need. PS. I bet that if you would pick different, fast mosfet: genuine one would behave according to spec. but "new" fake one would be worse and not meet your new needs. They fake what you need with literally anything cheap they currently have, not even same IC type.

[@glasslinger]

Do not use switching FETs for analog applications! You might get away with it, for a while! (have plenty of spares on hand!)

[@bjtaudio]

@@glasslinger that's correct, I found out, they are so easy to destroy when used in the linear region.

[@leongyokeloong5083]

We have foreign workers with fake university's degree working as engineers in my country. Of course the worker is real and still can be used ...but use at your own risk.

[@MrKillerno1]

Did you place a fake semiconductor between the video feed and the audio feed again?

[@ChiefBridgeFuser]

Excellent video! Thanks for showing the detail of Legendary Chinese Quality in the fake.

[@p4spooky]

Excellent work. Appreciate the compare.

[@meaninthemirror]

Fake one is probably re-labeled model from ST (speaking of shape of the fake one's back metal). You could spot the fake just by looking their back. 14:47

[@jimparr01Utube]

Oh well done Sir. Very clear tutorial - presumably in both languages. I have been lucky in that I have been bitten by counterfeit silicon on only two occasions during my 50 year career as a design engineer. On both occasions this was thankfully picked up in the course of a small pilot run, so the cost of refurbish was thankfully not very high. The second occasion, about 8 years ago, concerned a small DC-DC buck converter designed and manufactured by a very reputable company. It was a single-source device in a proprietary Surface-Mount package. In this case none of the 200 odd switchers would work at all. Detailed investigation revealed the parts did exhibit some properties of the expected pin-pin tests for a good device. It became clear that this was indeed the correct silicon under the epoxy, but the parts began their journey to us via the 'side door' of the fab' plant. Rejected product bin on final test. The supplier (to us) was able to obtain good part, direct from the mother-ship fairly promptly and paid for the full re-work. I am now retired, but I thank you for doing this sort of work Sir - increasing awareness of the "pitfalls" that vendors, designers, manufacturers, hobbyists can encounter in the course of realizing a goal.

[@JaredBrewerAerospace]

@12:31 If that guy hasn't drawn 1,00,000+ diagrams, he hasn't drawn a single one. It takes me 30 seconds to sketch that in my notebooks

[@gaynzz6841]

huh?

[@gtcollection6933]

Yeah some people I know based in Florida counterfeit and market several ICs, surprisingly some of theirs surpasses in terms of performance and quality for a fraction of the cost of the actual Marketing Budget sham of the real ones...

[@3ffrige]

Holy cow we have those kinds of test gear? The Dynamic Curve Tracer interests me, because it potentially can be a destructive test. The product lines I work on are NTS, and I can’t blow things up with those tools.

[@MisterS-fh8vt]

Can you just do an x-ray and see the crystal size of the transistor. Like dentistis use xray.

[@Qsderto]

It would be useful to publish a diagram of the device that will allow an ordinary amateur radio operator to identify a fake. Those devices that you are demonstrating are my unrealistic fantasy.

[@ICHIKEN1]

Measuring on resistance is ok.

[@VEC7ORlt]

Just buy from normal sources and stop 'identifying' fakes, you'll still fail and still pay twice.

[@Cineenvenordquist]

The rigs had: the 4-breakout scope, the test socket build with no visible ready heatsink stuff but an explosion safety hood, and a damn under cabinet...why? Nice to tag their dual pulse protocol and get your n-digit vmm on the power device's ON resistance but follow through trying to figure out if you'll run out of gate to saturate (or just bias diode) before you get work out of your build.

[@suntzu1409]

One does not simply definitively identify fake components. At least not without equipment worth millions of dollars. The important thing is to buy in bulk from official-ish sources and verify the characteristics before using them. Exact characteristics beyond the important ones (Vds breakdown, Rdson, Qg,....) also matter a lot less in lower performance designs, so you will probably be fine with any mosfet that have required important characteristics

[@treadmillrepair754]

For some reasons some times I buy components from Chinesse sellers. I do the next. 1 using a hammer I open it some transistors, counterfeit transistors comes with a very small DIE. 2 I use a power supply and one bulb for test the the resistance between drain to source, ususally fake transistors have more higher resistance. Never fail. Best Regards.

[@wiedapp]

For the applications I have in mind the higher Ron value alone disqualifies the fake part instantly.

[@ray-charc3131]

the price of fake one is so low, in a straight-forward sense or saying, buying several pieces to parallel connected to use can have low on resistance, but there are other concerns that I may not know....

[@marulituahutabarat6285]

Very good explanation about genuine and fake semiconductor. The question is, where to buy a genuine semiconductor beside so many online shops peddling their parts.

[@jurgenkruger3932]

Start with the factory. They tell you, from which distributors you can buy confidently. Like D.igikey, F.rnell, RS El.ctronics, for example.

[@victimovtalent6036]

Fake semiconductor where they from mainly?

[@38electronico]

Aliexpress

[@repairman2be250]

Dodgy Chinesium Producers!

[@repairman2be250]

@@38electronico Aliexpress harbouring Fake product Sellers and siding with them in Dispute cases.

[@Cineenvenordquist]

Pricing Su the value add field rep who knows her black boxes better than U.

[@guillermoiturriaga7863]

chiNAZI MADAFAKA REGIME 💀💀

[@_droid]

Funny, I came across this because I was testing some "fake" IRF260's about $0.50/ea. They perform pretty well almost matching the real thing. Rds 0.08Ω, about 4300pF, and switch times matching the official specs. No sanding or re-marking that I can see under the microscope. They're almost certainly fake and may fail over time but otherwise pretty well done for hobby level stuff. For commercial projects it's not even a question, only buy the real things from a legitimate dealer.

[@silviuguseila2552]

Can you not physically open them up to compare chip size, to be 100% sure they are fake? Since you mention you are not 100% sure

[@TerroMin]

It's not a fake, it just relabeled transistor with close max_Voltage and by it's parameters you can find a model of transistor

[@carllobis804]

Or "intentionally mislabeled"

[@isoslow]

They are completely fake. Nobody in the sane mind will encapsulate a die that small in a TO-247 package. There is no point!!

[@hugueslecorre4893]

Very easy way to check for genuine is to measure with a multimeter the capacitance between gate and source.

[@TymexComputing]

Today's episode was sponsored by the letter シ and the words: Genuine 本物 Fake 偽物 -- HP notebook Made in TOKYO

[@SaltyPuglord]

Great video, thank you! How did you decapsulate the dies? Doesn't look like the usual acid method. Some kind of freezing?

[@ICHIKEN1]

I used a heat gun with maximum temp. settting

[@bjtaudio]

The fake version is a cut down version, smaller with higher on resistance and of course the gate capacitance and charge will be less..

[@joewoodchuck3824]

I'm not sure I know how to separate this from second source products.

[@nullptr472]

Very interesting video; thank you! With respect to using data gathered from physical parts (rather than those specified in the datasheet) are there any rules of thumb with respect to how much one should depend on those characteristics? What should my testing method be to ensure that my results are not due to a good (or bad) fluke of process variations from a few sample components?

[@Dc_tech386]

Where can I get genuine semiconductor like igbt on mosfet from

[@xDR1TeK]

If a company can make a transistor, why design a fake package for it when they could make their own? They're already selling it at a cheaper price anyhow, hence the fakery is totally unwarranted. This is a very well rounded demonstration about mosfet transistors and their characteristics. I enjoyed it very much. Thank you.

[@era7928]

Mostly a discarded, not on spec specific transistor. China capable to build same spec clone transistor but of course there would be a many failed one. Instead of discarded, there would be naughty worker who take these and rebrand it to something more pricier. This is worse than rebrand of lower spec one.

[@stanislavremezov3936]

Why not just use two or three fake mosfets in parallel?

[@Cineenvenordquist]

That's almost as good and you can have 3 standby spares without raising capacitance... It might still be nice to know you're loaded with a gain curve that doesn't match the label so you can put a lid on EMI.

[@suntzu1409]

Thats actually done. Heat dissipation is a major (primary?) limitation in power mosfets and performance degrades very significantly at higher temperatures. Multiple mosfets in parallel make heat dissipation a lot easier. It also divides Rdson (and Ciss?) As a bonus, you can now buy in bulk and work with less strict tolerances in characteristics On the flipside, there is higher possibility of cascading failures and blowing up mosfets

[@jozsiolah1435]

Try to use a radioactive new working car battery such as Bosch or Varta. Its radiation fixes several items to provide better performance for luxury items, devices. It takes 3 days. Best to test with phone batteries first, then with other devices. Ups works as well, Bosch car battery fixes with its radioactive ray. Laptop batteries also get fixed.

[@catpawfreed1903]

Can someone suggest which genuine part number the fake one is equivalent to?

[@Chinhnguyen0497]

what about smd to252 or dpak mosfet?

[@petegaslondon]

THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE - these things are a MENACE! I trust my desoldered 'pulls' (uslaly from fancy gear) WAY more than random online buys ;)

[@redd2544]

but why would someone build a semiconductor fab just to create fake semiconductors??

[@MattyEngland]

I'm guessing these are manufacturing rejects 🤔

[@jonathanrodriguez8219]

In China, cents costs a fortune. Every bit of savings are important so it's worth a try.

[@ghydda]

Use your head: they don't. They build 'cheap' semiconductor plants, make cheap dies, package them like normal, and label them as an more expensive part, which stupid/gullible people then buy, thinking they got a genuine part at a discount.

[@Skepticof]

My love hate relationship with Aliexpress.

[@deepaklakhara3752]

I like the way you explain everything about MOSFET and comparing both original an duplicate MOSFET I have also a reparing shop in India where me and my father repair dj and home sound amplifier facing the problem of fake transister like 2sc 5200 or njw 302 Can you make a video on the transister

[@Johny666EU]

woow, this is really good video, good job. Thank you.

[@sam28z]

Fantastic explanation!!

[@uguraltunbilek]

thanx for this valuable information video

[@Lucius4992]

I was scammed few years ago with a kit of fake Toshiba BJT pairs. They were rated at 15A but couldn't even handle 1.5A (probably even less). I looked at them and noticed that the surface seemed sanded and reprinted instead of new. Also the back of them was very magnetic, like iron or steel. They were not even that cheap either. A really bad case.

[@Orbis92]

Just a few weeks ago I used an old Tektronix 577 because I had a few doggy TIP120s ;)

[@nonsuch]

If you're only a hobbyist, honestly, the "fake" ones are generally only fake by the part numbers being changed. Even though that may not do you any good if you need a specific performance, they are still good parts made by good manufacturers. So it may be worth trying them being 4x less in cost if you don't need precision. Basically what I'm saying is... these rebadged parts aren't broken and worthless. You can do some general tests without elaborate equipment to see if it'll work in your future projects. I have bought many cheap ICs that I suspect are rebadged that worked for many non-mission critical things. Again, I'm only talking to hobbyists and tinkerers.

[@Diagoras_de_Melos]

Very interesting video. Thank you very much!

[@MrDion555]

so can we use the transistor tester to detect the fake one?

[@heno_3098]

In fact, none of the described transistors are original. Why? Because they both carry the logo of the manufacturer "International Rectifier", which disappeared in 2014, because it was taken over by the Infineon company, and subsequently the original logo also disappeared. Why am I writing this? Because one of the transistors has a year of manufacture of 2020 and the other year of manufacture is 2022.

[@TymexComputing]

Thanks for that test! IGBT lobby is destroying the maker's business :)

[@worldinandaround]

how do we know if it is fake or genuine at first glance

[@fredfred2363]

You can't...

[@manuelpentinga9312]

Nice video!!

[@DangNguyen-oj9df]

Great video. Thanks.

[@viperwizard491]

I find that people who are ill educated about electronics will read part numbers rather than required spec to find proper modern replacement.

[@DumindaKuruppu]

Is this nileRed ?

[@asmylmaz1408]

great video!!

[@myathein-o4q]

,Great explanation.

[@YT7RR]

Unfortunately, more and more fake components on the market. thank you for the submitted work, all the best!!

[@smartups1]

Can you share your pcb Gerber please .

[@davidrobertson1980]

Very useful friend

[@Tech2C]

AI English voice or real?

[@TheGrantourismo]

Fake

[@MattyEngland]

I've very sure it's a real person. If it is AI then it is extremely good AI.

[@Karacan3655]

The thing I hate most It does not work in high frequency bands That is, first the operating frequency is shown as high in the catalogue. and then when you buy it Then you see that 150 kHz Does not operate at frequencies above If these are taught to work at high frequencies, will there be a lot of money spent? 😔😔😔

[@GianF123]

I haven't seen the video and I Say only some month ago I bought some cheap IRPF260 and before using them i have mesured the RDSon : It was 10 x the value on datasheet. 😒

[@hinz1]

Hoo lee Fuk, curve tracer that poops out complete data sheet. And I'm stuck with Tek 7CT1N and a Telequipment CT71... Went through the whole fake/useable process a while ago, too. Needed to repair/upgrade some welding machines. Only checked Rds and breakdown voltgage, Rds is easy with like Keithley 2010 and 5Amp power supply. Breakdown voltage was done wtth IM6 Megohmmeter, other parameters are mostly irrelevant for 500Hz DC/AC converter on a TIG machine.

[@bencromwell4453]

I recently bought a bunch of 3025's and over 90 percent of them were fakes from ebay multiple sellers, unfortunately.

[@vex123]

haha, great job on using a chopstick lol. REPRESENT!

[@1pcfred]

Why you no come?

[@suntzu1409]

"I come." -- Sun Tzu, The Art of War

[@KevinPan6]

fake one is pretty good, just 4%-5% difference,

[@arashyusefi1889]

Thanks 🙏👍💯😊

[@radiotec76]

Just vindicates what I’ve always said. It’s worth paying more to get original parts from a reliable vendor otherwise you will have to endure the Wild West of cheap unknown sourced components of questionable performance and reliability.

[@proservices6067]

Fake semi-conductors, sounds familiar .... like the sellers from Aliexpress, Bangood, etc ... right ? 😂

[@aknozansoy7288]

thanks

[@atsimas]

So basically the "fake" product has no switch function and lower high power delivery but the original high capacitance which may interfere with near components. To me, pick your poison. The narrator changed components during the test means that multiple components must be swapped to utilize the power available of the genuine. You need a big ass inductor which may cost by itself, 30 usd. The power needed to display the importance was above 300 watts. My pc screen draws 240. So in the bottom line, all the board must be adequately expensive, in order to use an expensive component. And now you learned that high temp kills efficiency.

[@gaynzz6841]

I don't understand the first sentence? No switch function? Obviously it does, otherwise it wouldn't have worked in his test circuit at 30khz. "original high capacitance which may interfere with near components" ??? I'm at a loss. Capacitance doesn't cause interference

[@atsimas]

@@gaynzz6841 I mean it needs less voltage to allow current to pass through. This could lead to some form of leakage if not taken into account. High capacitance means that it can hold a larger amount of current. In that case, you need to take into account the longer time it takes to discharge.

[@Ancipital_]

日本語もありますか？

[@salahuddinbangash4785]

Its cheap vs costly. Not fake vs genuine.

[@atilasatilmis9986]

Yes fake one is cheaper but still it's not what you ask for. You design a circuit, choose thermal parameters and end up with a burning mosfets.

[@salahuddinbangash4785]

@@atilasatilmis9986 agree. But fake means when you buy both with same price.

[@jonathanrodriguez8219]

well.... everyone wants to buy cheap products now.....

[@xzxzt4]

hope you make more videos, I like your expalanation

[@ninguno1756]

Hi I m not a engineer or expert. I play some electronics for fun. Why is so many fake semiconductors out there? I can understand the buisnnes the money behing.😁 If a buy flavor to make breath and is wrong and don t buyed and spred the news. It is almost imposible buy fake coke or pepsi. If am the owner of electronic store i were shemeful of this.... Sorry for me english. Regards

[@takedowntheccp.5167]

hi would you test some about the mosfet parameter video to more.

[@Sir-Dexter]

och fake ... nice vid

[@ovalwingnut]

ShOcK & AWE impressed. Really some amazing information here. Thanks to you and Keysight™. I was also really impressed with the blue color you added to the tip of your pointing stick Just saying. Cheers from So.Ca.USA 3rd House On the Left.

[@treadmillrepair754]

Keysight products are a complete shit, many years ago I was working with a Top electronics factory and the maintenance cost of their products are huge, all the time fail. Shit products. ICT "InCircuit Test" are the worst.

[@LaLaLand.Germany]

How to sniff out fake from good? Easy! Just buy tens of thousands worth of toys and get an engineers degree. There. Easy. Told Ya. I wouldn´t be so sarcastic if this had any value to the home gamer or semi pro. This stuff: close but no cigar. No dice.

[@a51mj12]

fake vs gay xd

[@BavarianSuperGuy]

Thankyou

[@jamesadvincula477]

my friend why not slice off the parts to show the inside of a fake and genuine

[@MattyEngland]

He did @15:00