FAME: Why Do We Create Icons Then Destroy Them?

Today’s technology allows us to be seduced by the possibility of fame and celebrity, tempting the ego to claim what does not belong to it.
In earlier times, fame was garnered slowly through work in the arts, scholarship, religion, and the military. Today, unprecedented, almost instantaneous communication has made fame a commodity in itself.
Novelty performers, entertainers, influencers, and sports stars-especially if young and glamorous-can become the victim of “audience capture.”
Fame tempts the ego to claim what does not belong to it, and the person may become identified with his or her role, especially as others have an urge to find a hero, wise man, leader, or transcendent figure. Jung wrote about the mana personality-a larger-than-life person with charismatic power and energy. Magicians and priests, infused with special knowledge and god-like capabilities, are emblematic of mana personalities. Followers are then imbued with the mana person’s special qualities, as we see in audience reactions at concerts or rallies.
Fame also has costs. The celebrity press, as the British royal family well knows, is relentless. Criticism abounds, and those in the spotlight receive threatening calls and letters, lack privacy, and may have to contend with stalkers or insistent fans. Celebrities are almost four times as prone to suicide as others; others have died early: Marilyn Monroe, Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson, Judy Garland, Jim Morrison, Janis Joplin, John Belushi, and River Phoenix. When a star is accused of wrongdoing, fans can be quick to turn, delighting as much in their idol’s destruction as in success. Celebrities are the sacrificial victims of our projections, from veneration to evisceration.
Jung says, “We stand with our soul suspended between formidable influences from within and without, and somehow, we must be fair to both. This we can only do after the measure of our individual capacities. Hence, we must bethink ourselves not so much of what we ‘ought’ to do as of what we can and must do.“ To live meaningfully in the world and achieve a sense of kinship with men, gods, and beasts is the work of a lifetime.
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[@dmystfy]

47:15 “if you’re well known because you’re in service to something larger than yourself, like Jung was, I think you’re on steadier ground. If you’re chasing fame and attention for its own sake, it will devour you”

[@lauragiles5193]

Actors and even more so, actresses, rightly or wrongly used to be considered of a lower caste. As many of us distance ourselves from religious communities of worship, we remain beings who worship and will find an outlet for this impulse. By shunting aside ancient wisdom, we tend to focus our religious energies on those who have shiny, less deep qualities. But all that glitters is not gold. In adversity we usually come back to what really matters. I hope our society wakes up sooner rather than later to what is truly at stake and stop all our in-fighting.

[@JennySieck]

It occurs to me how much inner work that type of life exacts from people.

[@lauragiles5193]

I wish Jordan Peterson had known when to stop. He believes in his guru status in a way that is disturbing.

[@vandamedeg2760]

So true

[@tt_here]

It testifies to either his suppressed insecurities which he’ll never admit to having or his overinflated ego. Go figure… ever since the “give ‘em hell” I cannot respect him as a human being, let alone a learned person.

[@Heru_Iluvatar]

Imo Dr Peterson is the love child of Ben Kenobi and Count Dooku.

[@hl436]

So happy yr a mind- reader... you what Peterson thinks and feels.

[@cmralph...]

Thank you for making this video. Unwanted attention for one's accomplishments can feel like a trip through hell for someone who is naturally reclusive and introverted. When a computer game I created in 1989 as a fundraiser for AIDS charities resurfaced in 2017 and was revived and publicly recognized as the first LGBTQ+ computer game ever created, it began a series of requests for interviews, which still tends to surge in the month of June, Pride month. While I am grateful I get to do what I do as an artist and an advocate for fundamental human rights, it's still very difficult for me to deal with the public. Maybe if I were younger and hungrier for attention, this would be different. But I'm nearing 70 years old, and I just want to be left alone to carry out my creative endeavors. To quote Steven Pressfield, "The Artist's Journey is about the Art, not the Artist."

[@henrywolf5332]

War heros having fame is not necessarily a bad thing. Power and fame go together. Illuminating and integrating that shadow to rise above death is more venerable than someone who sings to many but lacks virtuosity or the true creative fire. Most famous people are empty nonindividuated commercialized products we are primed to adore even though they are hollow by necessity of needing to be projected upon by the masses and thus have no real substance or virtue to their fame. It’s mostly mana exposing the shadow today. Never meet your hero’s as they say. We don’t hold virtuosity as close to fame as we like to think in a cult of personality.

[@Gnosticpunk]

I can empathize with the dreamer. I was also an adjunct professor after I graduated and was unhappy with my career path. It took some time and doing but I switched my career to an Instructional Designer which I am now happy with. This was a career I had never heard of before and had learned that this has been a good career change for a lot of teachers who get burned out in the classroom. If you are still lost on deciding what is the best career change for you, Instructional Design is worth looking into. All the best on your new journey!

[@Gorboduc]

The Avocado guy is like Kafka's hunger artist in reverse...

[@kal2487]

Another good one! I appreciate the dream you shared, because I have some version of that dream monthly. I guess I need to figure out what I was supposed to learn in high school, because I'm always back there, having to retake classes I aced the first time around, but for which I haven't studied in 20+ years. I'm always frustrated because it's going to retroactively mess up my perfect grade point average, so I'm always looking for the registrar to drop the class before I get an official grade, but I never end up completing that task. 😬

[@luobaide]

This was an excellent and inspiring conversation! Thank you very much!

[@advandepol7537]

I am a great Beatles fan, so I would like to correct that John Lennon said that they were more famous than Jesus. And considering their dedication to hinduism, they were not great fans of Jesus. And as a matter of fact, they did something good with their fame in that they promoted asian religion, which was my personal entrance into the world of spirituality (though Maharishi was a misstep, and their LSD use was not particularly edifying). But I agree fully that when you are famous, and influence a huge crowd of people, you should do something good with it, though most celebreties (+addicted to drugs) will not be able to withstand the singing of the sirens. Judy Garland is a sad story, because what no many people will know is that she was a communist, and was virtually driven to suicide in the McCarthy era. It will be heartbreaking when you once were a revered star, to fall down into nothingness. It does remind me of the Wheel of Fortune card in the tarot. A great conversation again by the team that is not so very famous (yet, considering your exploding number of subscribers), but is divinely gifted in the realm of communication.

[@Queenie-the-genie]

I am pretty darn old. I was born in 1945 before the end of WW2. So I am technically a member of what is referred to as the Greatest Generation. My parent’s generation who went through the Great Depression and WW2. I am truly though, of the Boomers. I grew up in NYC. I remember being at a rock concert at the Fillmore East. I think it may have been The Rolling Stones. I noticed the adoration of the crowd - everyone in the audience were basically, physically & emotionally in such a state of adoration and could have been under the control of the band that was playing had they wished to point them in any direction. I was in a place of observation. I thought how strange it was that the entire audience could possibly have been easily manipulated by these “rock stars”. That night I vowed never to be entranced to that point by performers who seemed to have these people in the palm of their hand. I thought “I wonder if the audience en masse might believe anything they were told by the music makers or follow them down any road they wanted to lead them. I’m not saying the band had anything like that in mind - I just wondered if music or anything else might have a dark & manipualtive side to be wary of. My musical tastes were actually in a different direction - more folky - as I used to attend the Newport Folk Festival. Later, jazz also became fascinating. I was very young then… possibly not even 21 yet.

[@dmystfy]

Missing Joseph :(

[@bobd4083]

When you got to 'guru', Kopp's book ' 'if you meet the buddha... ', came to mind.

[@justinrousse9611]

The quote from the Beatles that met with widespread disapproval was “We are now more popular today than Jesus.”

[@Snortgirl]

I just saw the Netflix four-part documentary on David Beckam and Spice Girl, Posh Spice ...life ...it very much reminds me of this subject. I wonder what Lisa Debs and Joseph would think about this 4-part series? David had incredible Talent with good looks and became a Super Sports Star and Love and adoration so much aggression and hate all at the same time!

[@GuillermoCitas]

We didn't do anything! You have to remember there are hundreds of millions of people in America and just because a few million people do something loudly and publicly doesn't mean a large majority agree! This is a major problem with politics being driven by perceived public opinion today when it's actually just a handful of people in support of an issue.

[@phillipjordan1010]

Very true. A simple and profound insight that escapes most people in this country. Mostly people who choose not to be aware. The disturbing behavior of the Trump Cult instantly came to mind.

[@ira_herself9663]

Very interesting.

[@sandi7192]

Great topic and discussion. Russell Brand has always been a dlist celeb though, not a good example.

[@shirleynoble685]

The Maenads might not have fully known what they were doing under the influence of Dionysus but if I recall The Bacchae correctly, he most certainly knew what he was inciting them to do. It speaks to the cost of suppressing certain elements of the soul in service of conventionality.