Fan Theories #15.5 : The Mystery Of The Master's Incarnations

The Master has led a long and complex life…but just how many lives have they had…well let’s find out!
Any ideas or theories discussed in these videos are purely my own interpretation of things that I personally like to think of as canon, and I do not speak for anyone other than myself in these videos.
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[@CaptainJimiPie]

*_IMPORTANT NOTES : Please read before commenting_* This video is an update version of my previous videos regarding The Master’s line up of incarnations. Whilst those videos are now unlisted you can still see them via the links below, but please bear in mind that some of the information in those videos is wrong, hence why I made a more up to date version *Part 1 :* kzbin.info/www/bejne/qaipf4eaasysfrc *Part 2 :* kzbin.info/www/bejne/q3SkcpuPgKpjnpY *Part 3 :* kzbin.info/www/bejne/aJutmol9a6mHfNU *_Commonly Raised Questions_* Below I have addressed some commonly raised points regarding The Master and this video Point : What about his new cycle in The Five Doctors? Response : This has been left out as he never actually gained a new cycle in The Five Doctors, the offer was given to him by The TimeLord's should he save The Doctor, however as The Master's plan once in the Death Zone and discovering Rassiion's secret evolved to double crossing them and gain immortality for himself (lucky for him that he failed) they seemingly never gave him a new cycle. Point : You left out some stolen bodies Response : Yes I am aware I may have left out some stolen bodies but as I said in the video due to the different continuities and the fact that the exact number of bodies The Master has stolen over the years, it would have been difficult to make an entire list of them all Point : The differing account of the Delgado's incarnation fate is in Legacy Of The Daleks, not War Response : This was an oversight on my part as both those book are regarded as non-canon for their changed to the continuity and as such, along with similar titles, it is easy to get them confused. Point : The "First/Child" War Master is an aborted timeline Response : Recently the writer of those particular comics suggested that when he wrote them the idea was that the Child War Master comes AFTER Jacobi's and the "regeneration" at the end of the comic may in fact have been a "retro-regeneration" back into his previous incarnation. However this has also been acknowledged as open to interpretation as the comic does not explicitly state this to be the case. Having read the comic myself (and when viewed alongside other evidence) my interpretation is that The Child War Master precedes Jacobi's incarnation, as this is the most canonically logical explanation. Point : JD's Master is not necessarily the first incarnation. Response : At the time of writing this video it was generally accepted that JD's Master was the first incarnation, with Milo Parker playing a younger version in Masterful. However since then it has been debated they may in fact have been different incarnations. Masterful heavily implies that Milo Parker's Master is in fact the original incarnation due to his appearance in Academy robes, and JD's Master has since been implied to possibly be The Master's second or third incarnation. However as both of these "slots" are open as it were then overall the list in the videos still remains the same with only a minor "reshuffle".

[@britanimations2002]

I think the reason Sacha turns evil again is simple, learning of the Timeless Child sent him over the edge and became evil again

[@CaptainJimiPie]

That’s KIND of the angle I’m going for my theory but adding more to it

[@RabbiB0Y]

PLEASE STOP BRINGING THAT UP i'm going to fucking throw up now

[@keelanbarron928]

@@RabbiB0Y shut up and grow up.

[@Pineaaronapple]

I really appreciate this video. Good work, I just listened to the lumiat this morning and was worried that she would not be included.

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Thanks and that’s partly why I decided to make this video, I was going to update the pinned comment in my old ones but it got the point where there were enough corrections & additions to simply make a new video

[@user-qd9rg3wy2n]

12th Master: "We timelords face death with dignity" proceeds to cheat death and delay it with all his might

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Actually the quote is "We Time Lords are EXPECTED to face death with dignity", and it's very stereotypical of The Master to say one thing and then do another

[@slateoffate9812]

One idea I have concerning the Post-TV Movie Master; The Eye of Harmony is inconsistent, so; who's to say there's only one Master? What if it shredded the Master's timeline, resulting multiple Masters escaping the Eye, independent of each other?

[@CaptainJimiPie]

I personally would say that’s very unlikely as that makes The Masters timeline very confusing and given that The TimeLords are still around at that point I would hazard a guess they wouldn’t allow something like that to happen given how much trouble just ONE Master is

[@jasonhebedead1710]

I can see were Jimi's coming from...But still that is a good take

[@royalewithcheese9291]

That's kind of the angle I'm going with. Would make sense as the Eye of Harmony, is essentially a temporal anomaly, its reasonable to assume that the Master being exposed to such power would result in him being scattered across time. My personal headcanon is that, his physical body (Eric Roberts) is able to escape into the spare room that is jettisoned from the TARDIS. Whilst the Morphant infects the TARDIS, causing it to perform an emergency landing. Where it would then take over yet another body.

[@raymond8920]

I remember theorising that myself a while back, at least im not as crazy for thinking it as I thought and its not the craziest thing in the masters timeline to happen

[@rattybarnett]

Loved it! I'm re watching series 8 with my Dad and his girlfriend who has never seen Peter capaldis era. This means she has no idea who missy is and it really is difficult to keep the secret...

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Thanks!

[@kennycolliver]

Hey with Masterful coming soon, it’d be cool if you did a brief history video on Mark Gatiss’ unbound Master

[@CaptainJimiPie]

At some point in future I might but probably not anytime soon, I would atleast wait for Masterful to come out first

[@ztrangefolk3015]

Me throughout most of the video: Ok ok ok *starts talking about the loomiac: WHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!?!?!!??!!?!?!?!??!!??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!?!!?? Great video by the way

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Thanks and the revelation of The Lumiat was partly the main reason I decided to update this video from my previous ones

[@HazarTulum]

One of my favourite lines from the second War Master boxset can fix all of the discrepancies with the Masters timeline. "Right now, not too far from here there's a war raging. A war so fierce, that people are called upon to sacrifice not just themselves, but their entire history." The insanity and savagery of the Time War caused entire timelines to be erased, rewritten, reversed, so much so that it'd be a miracle to come out of the other end with your personal history unscathed. The Masters timeline has been so badly affected by the Time War that ALL of these backstories can be considered canon, even the "War of the Daleks" version of events where Delgado is the decayed version of the Master. You could even extend this to what Steven Moffat said in one Doctor Who magazine, I can't remember his exact words but he said something along the lines that looms may not be technically canon, but they're still part of a completely valid canon

[@CaptainJimiPie]

I am actually planning a video along those lines in future regarding the canonicity of War Of The Daleks and other media being “Time War Canon” as it were

[@HazarTulum]

@@CaptainJimiPie ooh nice! Looking forward to that!

[@CaptainJimiPie]

No worries

[@crimsondynamo615]

As much as Scream of the Shalka is non canon, there’s just something interesting to me about the Master being an android companion of the Doctor. The fact that he is also played by Derek Jacobi is pretty funny too. Sometimes I look at that and wonder what an alternate revival series would be if it followed Scream of the Shalka.

[@CaptainJimiPie]

It certainly is an interesting idea, I did do a Non-Canon Fan Theory in the past about how SOTC and Curse Of Fatal Death are linked but it was never intended to be serious However I have also planned a Non-Canon theory about how The Master came to find himself in that predicament which I will be doing in future

[@blakelycan2535]

I love this. I've personally am trying to forge the masters timeline and this helped alot. also i would like for you into the big finish story The Black Hole. there is a character who is a time lord named Pavo who the writer said they were intended to be earlier incarnations of the master. also that goes into another account (I can't remember the source) that the master would go through different aliases and consantly use different faces

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Thanks, and I have listened to The Black Hole and did see Simon Guerrier’s tweet regarding Pavo’s identity a while back, however given the “real” Pavos fate and personalities in the story it seems unlikely they would be The Master, atleast to me

[@blakelycan2535]

okay. quick question do you believe things like faction paradox and the war in heaven are canon. because if you think about it the war in heaven could explain how the master got into the matrix so easily and to be able to destroy gallifrey as gallifrey was destroyed at the end of the war in heaven

[@CrossoverKid92]

I've just today finished Missy 2, and I've been saving this vid for when I did. Gotta say, it doesn't disappoint :D Now does anyone need a headache tablet?

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Thanks, it is a bit convoluted in places haha

[@alexander00316]

Great video just curious will you do a video if in 2005 when 9 regenerated to 10 if they still went with there original plan and had rose dying from the events of parting of the ways

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Not something I would do, partly because there’s no really anything to form a theory on, but also because that ending was never intended to be a true alternate ending. An ending showing Rose seemingly dying was filmed simply for the purposes of being shown to press reviewers to keep the regeneration scene a secret

[@NemesisHero123]

Nice Update! :D Though I still like to think the Dreyfus' Master was the second incarnation. Like Milo Parker's Master would have an accident during the academy and regenerate. Due to him and the Doctor being great friends, but would become distant after the regeneration. That's more or less my thoughts since I think Dreyfus' Master looks far too young to be the 1st Incarnation of the Master, as both Time Lord left Gallifrey at the same time.

[@CaptainJimiPie]

It's possible that he was as he was never explicitly stated to be the first and writer John Dorney has stated that he never had a specific incarnation in mind when writing, it seems to have been Big Finish which made the decision for him to be the first. As for his age whilst it would make sense for him to be the same age as The Doctor when leaving however there are varying accounts of his departure, and as well know that TimeLord ageing is a very varied process then it's possible there could be a discrepancy between different TimeLord's in the same way that some people age better than others haha

[@royalewithcheese9291]

So in short: wibbly wobbly, timey wimey. Great breakdown of the very complicated, yet very fascinating conundrum of the Master's timeline. Personally I've always felt that Missy should be the Master's final incarnation (although the Lumiat, as you said, is the manifestation of the Master's goodness in same way that the Valeyard is the manifestation of the Doctor's evil, so do they even count in regards to regenerations?) The reason why I think this is because it brought the character full circle and was such a satisfying end for the character. If the Dhawan Master is indeed the next incarnation then all that character development will have been slightly wasted. What I think would be a better option is for his version to be between Simm and Gomez (as you say it's odd that such an evil incarnation would have resulted from such goodness and as we don't hear from this newly regenerated form).

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Thanks, it's worth noting this is just very much a theory on my view of how it goes together based on all the known evidence, so if others have their own alternative ideas they can be just as valid for them.

[@cainedodunski23]

I think that it would be a great idea big finish do a story with the valeyard meeting the lumiat if they get the chance of course

[@CaptainJimiPie]

As someone who is a big fan of The Valeyard and has enjoy the little we've heard from The Lumiat at present time I would certainly liked to hear that!

[@hallanfrost2998]

Theory: The Master used The Moment to destroy the Timelords in season 12 as this is not only one of the few weapons capable of doing this but it was also left on gallifrey by the doctor which is where the master would later be when he found out about the timeless child from the matrix and got angry.

[@CaptainJimiPie]

That doesn't really work, as we know The Moment supposedly completely removes things from history so if The Master used it to wipe out The TimeLord's then not only would it have likely erased both him & The Doctor from history but it would have completely destroyed Gallifrey, and there wouldn't have been any bodies of TimeLord's left for The Master to create his CyberMaster's from. There's also nothing to suggest that The Doctor left The Moment on Gallifrey, which is very unlikely as knowing The Doctor they wouldn't leave such a powerful and devastating weapon where other TimeLord's like Rassilon could get hold of it Lastly, later expanded media suggests that The Moment possibly continued to exist in the main universe whilst Gallifrey was in the pocket universe, AND according to the novelisation of Day Of The Doctor The Moment spoke to The Thirteenth Doctor on two separate occasions, and as The Moment could see both the past and future then it would have likely warned The Doctor of The Master's plan if he had planned to use it as you suggest

[@hallanfrost2998]

Thank you for explaining this. Keep up the good work on your channel!

[@CaptainJimiPie]

No worries and thanks!

[@LordDungeonMaster]

My personal headcanon is still that the Sacha Dhawan master is before Missy but forgotten. That way Missy becoming good lasts. Also, I'm looking to start listening to Big Finish Doctor Who. Where would you recommend I start?

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Fair enough, each to their own, I know it is something which many fans go with but with the addition of The Lumiat Missy’s sacrifice still has worth As for Big Finish it’s entirely you to you where you start, depending on what exactly you want to listen to I.e. which Doctor or series but generally I’d recommend starting at the beginning of a particular series and working out from there

[@alistairrae9807]

I personally would recommend and you don’t have to take my recommendations I would start with either the first Big Finish Doctor Who Story The Sirens of Time nice multi Doctor story or start with the Eighth Doctor Adventures 2 parter Blood of the Daleks

[@LordDungeonMaster]

@@alistairrae9807 Thanks!

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Sir Paulan Isus : Blood Of The Daleks isn’t a bad shout as that’s where I started

[@NM-fw5zr]

Do you think the master at the start of the TV movie was Andrew Ainslie or different actor

[@CaptainJimiPie]

I literally explain that in the video...

[@theunknowneditor63]

This is great! I don't really like the idea of the good version of missy becoming Dhawan, as that doesn't really make him a proper master. I prefer the idea of a future incarnation coming to the aid of the dead missy in the doctor falls, resurrecting her and allowing her to continue her cycle.

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Well there is enough ambiguity for there to be other incarnations between the two and as The Lumiat story does make it clear that whilst The Lumiat is a distillation of all the good in The Master she is still a proper incarnation. However I am planning a future fan theory on how/why Dhawan's Master came about, assuming we don't get a proper explanation before then

[@Hilda_ogden]

I think all the goodness in missy was used in the lumiat so dhawans master is the opposite of the lumiat.

[@CaptainJimiPie]

There’s going to be an element of that idea in my theory too but with some more additions of other factors as well

[@ZoahLord]

*Cough*Legacy of the Daleks*cough* Sorry dude, as much as 'War of the Daleks' messes with how we view long term continuity (if you believe Dalek propaganda) it has no mention of the Master's incarnations. 'Legacy of the Daleks' however... (Otherwise, great video)

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Yes I know, I addressed that in the pinned comment as an oversight on my part whilst making this video. Although to be fair The Master is mentioned in War as The Eighth Doctor references the events of the TV Movie and some of The Master's actions during that time

[@timemeddler7730]

Thats very interesting, I thought that the master seen in the latest season of DW was on of the unseen ones from his first regeneration circle ,which would explain why he was evile after Missy became "good".

[@CaptainJimiPie]

That is a theory which a lot of fans hold to, and as we didn’t see who he regenerated from it’s still something some people believe but it makes more sense for him to be a newer incarnation

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Whilst Jacobi to Simm is thus far the only regeneration to be seen on screen, it depends on your definition of "seen" and "regeneration". You could debate that Beevers taking over the Ainley body, and the Morphant taking over Bruce count. And off-screen we have also seen/heard The Master regenerating in other expanded media

[@antcoloniesofearth7295]

@Time Meddler -Sacha Dhawan's master references events of The Deadly Assassin and Logopolis. -Sacha Dhawan's master "says crack a smile", a phrase only recent masters say like John Simm and Missy. -He destroyed Gallifrey, yet other masters show no sign of destroying a future Gallifrey. And you come to the conclusion that he is in the first regeneration cycle. Makes sense, also you spelt "evil" wrong.

[@brookhammerbrook3306]

I'm sorry for this being 6 months late of this video being up, love your video by the way. I do have a question about the Doctor Who video game Destiny of the Doctors (1997). The Master played by Anthony Ainley is trapped at the end of the game, how does that game relate to the wider cannon? Personally I think that the monsters mentioned by the Master at the end of that game are the Daleks and they are preparing for his trial as mentioned in the beginning of the TV Movie by the Doctor. This game cannot be cannon though because it is not mentioned by any other medium including Audio, Books, Comic's or TV. I am eager to see your opinions about it

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Well there's a few things to go over there, firstly the good news is that there is no real reason why Destiny Of The Doctors can't be canon as whilst there are conflicting continuities that follow on from the end of the TV series, the game is a perfect valid one, and fits into the idea of Ainley's ageing being a result of his stolen body failing him. Also in the comic Prisoners Of Time, which features The Seventh Doctor meeting the Ainley Master he wears an outfit almost identical to the one he wears in Destiny of The Doctors, so whilst not a direct confirmation it's definitely intended to be direct reference to the outfit seen in Destiny. As for the ending of the game, many fans have come to the conclusion that it leads directly into the TV Movie however that is purely just fan speculation and taking into account other expanded media such as Big Finish's Dust Breeding then quite a few other events happen between the end of the game and the TV Movie, and the behind the scenes of the TV Movie reveal that Tipple would have played his Master in his native Canadian accent thereby implying he is not intended to be the same incarnation as Ainley's

[@eliasdragonheart1067]

Who’s your favourite Master? 😁

[@CaptainJimiPie]

I don't think I really have one to be honest, I like different ones for different reasons

[@zachbishop9839]

Missy

[@mathieuleader8601]

I think the parker incarnation is the child war incarnation

[@CaptainJimiPie]

A lot of people have assumed that however I think it's unlikely as the Child War Master is heavily implied to Asian in their comic appearances, and the robes Parker's incarnation is wearing are fairly definitive as being seen on Gallifrey

[@teamsonicchannel4400]

Was James Dreyfus ever confirmed to be the first I always thought he was just an early incarnation

[@CaptainJimiPie]

I believe some press releases and previews listed Dreyfus as playing the first incarnation of The Master, however since the the writer Matt Fitton has said that his specification for the character wasn't explicitly The First Master, so it's open to interpretation. Personally I go for First Master as that's what he was called in press releases and it gives him a placement in the line up

[@1987pokemaster]

I always thought sachas master had came before missy in the master timeline

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Lot's of people have assumed that, but there's never been anything to actually imply or even suggest this is the case, other than fan speculation

[@dazzag371]

In the s12 finale the 13th doctor leaves the master on galifrey to get blown up, in dark waters, missy tells the 12th doctor (capaldi) that she’s the time lord that he abandoned

[@CaptainJimiPie]

When The Doctor asks Missy which Time Lady she replies "the one you abandoned, the one you left for dead, didn't you think I'd find my way back", however that's nothing to suggest that is explicitly referencing the events of The Timeless Children as in all fairness that's not the first time The Doctor has abandoned The Master to fend for themselves, for example : . In The Claws Of Axos, The Doctor leaves The Master trapped in a time loop . In The Deadly Assassin, he allows him to seemingly fall to his death, although he is later revealed to have survived . In The Keeper Of Traken The Doctor abandons The Master in his TARDIS as it blows up, although again he escaped using a second TARDIS . In Castrovalva The Doctor abandoned him in in Castrovalva as it collapses . In Time-flight The Doctor bumps The Master's TARDIS through time to Xeriphas hoping the Xeriphin will enact revenge upon him . In The Kings Demons The Doctor sabotages The Master's TARDIS meaning he could end up anywhere . In Planet Of Fire, The Doctor seemingly allows The Master to be burnt up, although again it is later revealed he survives . In Mark Of The Rani, The Doctor abandoned BOTH The Master & The Rani to fend off against a T-Rex in The Rani's TARDIS . In The Ultimate Foe he abandoned The Master trapped in the Matrix at the mercy of The TimeLords . In Survivial, he abandoned him on the Cheetah Planet . In the TV Movie he leaves him to be trapped in the Eye Of Harmony . And lastly in The End Of Time (most likely what Missy was referencing) he abandons The Master to be trapped back within The Time War. And THAT is the just the TV series, it happens many other times in the expanded media, although The Master always survives somehow The Doctor has a history of abandoning The Master, so Missy's statement could easily be seen as a general statement rather than a specific one

[@stevenwells157]

😎😎💯

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Thanks!

[@oneofmanyintheworld]

I thought Dhawan's Master was next after Simm's, and that Missy is the very last Master

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Lots of people seemed to jump to that conclusion but there was never anything said or implied on screen that this was the case

[@Pulsarnix]

I'm frustrated that Dhawan comes after Missy as it negates her redemption arc is series 10

[@CaptainJimiPie]

But according to the latest evidence, as shown in this video, he doesn't come after her...not directly anyway

[@Pulsarnix]

@@CaptainJimiPie It's difficult one to put together, but using miniaturisation technology and stealing someone's identity is something that the classic Masters would do

[@CaptainJimiPie]

But that doesn't necessarily mean he's a classic Master, by that same logic you could say any new series Doctor is actually a classic one because they did someone a classic Doctor did at some point.

[@Pulsarnix]

@@CaptainJimiPie True, honesty I think I'm just trying to justify a way that Missy's redemption arc isn't ruined

[@CaptainJimiPie]

Fair enough but as I said above, as mentioned in this video is hasn't been ruined according to the latest information