Fancy R-290 Delfield Cooler Not Reliable Multiple Problems Freezing Up

Another over engineered cooler falls on its face thanks to high efficiency standards. It's not the manufactures fault its the "G" asking for more than whats available in todays technology.
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#hvacrsurvival #hvaclife #hvacservice #hvacr #refrigeration #troubleshooting

[@HVACRSurvival]

One of my awesome viewers that goes by the name Shine shared a link with me on some Delfield training that does discuss some of the typical pressures and temperatures that you’ll see while the systems operating properly. Here’s a link to it. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pWqVd5iHmpillacsi=8ncNAMBtuwJ_PClu

[@ulairecantea9231]

@HVACRSurvival thank you, Rick. You are the man. 👌

[@WaffleStaffel]

Someone's groaning in the background 😀

[@jasonyeager9102]

@@HVACRSurvival thank you, that was very informative

[@BdubMack]

Would not be the first time factory charge was incorrect... especially when you're dealing in single digit OZs. I don't know how much more you could have done - or who else would! You are a master of patience and HVAC. Way to stick it to the man with the authorization for warranty. Thank you for continually enriching my life by sharing your wisdom and experiences.

[@HVACRSurvival]

Thank you! 🙏

[@sherwinalvarez7365]

I am so glad you said that about tech support and the whole process. Also, your leak search as well. I didbasically the same as you. I do not like Danfoss TXVs. I chalked it up to bad charge from the factory. Aint no way those workers get paid more than us. Is like I tell newbies, you can not do refrigeration unless you like it. It's not a job, it's a lifestyle.

[@HVACRSurvival]

That is a good quote to use. “You cannot do Refrigeration unless you like it or I would say love it. It’s not a job. It’s a lifestyle.”

[@brnmcc01]

You don't like Danfoss TXV's? I'm a Sporlan guy myself, but that's a lot from my Dad who swore by anything Sporlan and he was a huge fan of their driers when they came out with that solid core tech decades ago. But Danfoss TXV's have a stainless steel power head, and stainless steel temp bulb/cap tube, so they don't have the issue of power heads paint flaking off and rusting out etc. I've had good luck with both brands.

[@shine-cg9uf]

👍💪🇺🇸❄️ absolutely agree well said 👍

[@Bassn1ck]

It is lifestyle. For sure if your a supermarket refer tech lol

[@sherwinalvarez7365]

@@Bassn1ck Exactly. Van life.

[@fshn76]

Deal with lots of the delfield stuff and I feel your pain with tech support. It’s so hit or miss getting someone that knows what they are talking about. Good Video Rick!

[@HVACRSurvival]

Thanks man!

[@lqueryvg666]

"...dog snoring..." - good excuse - LOL - My old dog used to snore like a freight train.....great work on the vid!!!

[@joelmcneney5366]

Bring back equipment that lasts longer than 5 years

[@HVACRSurvival]

That’s if you’re lucky five years. 🤣👍👍

[@prothermal_refrigerationHVAC]

restrict chinese equipment,parts and all trash and make it in America. half of service calls now is to tell customer that repair cost more or equal to new same equipment.

[@throttlebottle5906]

5 years? you're giving it all some major credit there, most breaks within 6 months to a year. lol

[@mikafoxx2717]

Come on, LG is doing their best to prevent that!

[@Growzarktrail]

Delfield I believe is still owned by Manitowoc. That touch screen they have is screaming indigo nxt to me.

[@MikeB9771]

Owned by Welbilt

[@brnmcc01]

@@MikeB9771 Yup and Welbilt just took over Imperial Range now too it seems.

[@vincentzenuh978]

When one of our customers started using Hoshizaki RIC we found out that they were only using one sensor (cabinet sensor). To save energy the evap fan motor would shut off during the off cycle. Under light duty this system worked fine. When a unit was under high demand we found out that these units would have a tendency to freeze up. Cabinet sensor would check out fine as well as the temp control dial. 95% of the time the fix would be to wire the evap fan motor to run all the time. The benefits of off-cycle defrost as well as scheduled by the controller. The problem using only one sensor is that it would terminate defrost on temp 45 degrees. High volume boxes can hit 45 pretty fast. The newer Hoshi's use two sensor (cabinet and evap) and haven't' had much of an issue with those.

[@HVACRSurvival]

That’s a very good suggestion wire at fan all the time on a cooler. Obviously that wouldn’t work on a freezer unless you wired in a relay to break the fan when the heaters came on 😆

[@brnmcc01]

@@HVACRSurvival You could gut it and rewire, and use a Dixell universal controller, they're quite flexible and can program it to run the fans all the time if you want to. I think the Carel controllers also have a lot of setup options, both of those brands don't have an adaptive defrost, but you can do time or temperature termination. The reachin Avantco freezer I have at home, the default defrost termination is 50 degrees, and that seems to work good. I just changed the number of defrosts from 6 a day to every 8 hours because I don't open the doors very much. I thought about changing the fans to run all the time, but that would be more wear and tear, and might increase the electricity use a bunch because of the heat generated by the fans? Right now it's using about 1.6-1.9 kwh/hr per day which is acceptable for a freezer. For a cooler, I just use a Dixell universal controller, set it to 36 degrees, and a 30 min defrost every 8 hours or every 6 hours if they tend to leave the doors open a lot. Most of the time 3 defrosts a day works good. Prep tables can need every 6 hours, depends on how heavy use it gets. For a cooler I leave the fans running all the time for off cycle defrost. Had trouble with a bar reach-in glass door beer bottle cooler that was always freezing up, I got rid of the electronic module that turns the fans on/off, and bypassed it so the fans run anytime the power switch is turned on.

[@RSBot2jar]

Well said at the end there!

[@HVACRSurvival]

Oh, I’m sure I’ll get hit by the “Li_b$” at TubeU

[@MikeB9771]

Love the interchangeable sensor in the Stratus. One thing i notice, once the top of the cover is the gaskets never seal back like it was. I haven't come across these newer. Delfields, they are getting fancier which means morw problems. In my experience R290 systems always leak. Good video Rick.

[@HVACRSurvival]

I agree, I’ve had several leaks on the True and Chinese equipment. Now it doesn’t hurt the environment so they say so. What’s the big deal just keep recharging it right lol

[@Ismael72110]

@@HVACRSurvival correct me if im wrong but according to inficon that sensor is only good for natural gas and not R290 propane, which make no sense cause propane has methane, its just a higher density fuel than natutal gas ....keep you good work trade need more tech like you

[@HVACRSurvival]

@Ismael72110 I just looked on the website and it’s ready for R 290, 600 and some 400 gas. I know the trial sensor that they sent me worked good on natural gas and propane as well but I don’t know how the final one does on those fuels.

[@brnmcc01]

@@Ismael72110 Propane is propane, methane is a different chemical altogether. I think you meant natural gas which is mostly methane with a trace amount of hydrogen that varies throughout the country. It's roughly 95% methane.

[@Ismael72110]

@@HVACRSurvival yeah ,,just checked and they updated their website cause before said , natural gas only ,,that why i was holding back in get the R290 sensor

[@hvactech77]

Great video. I always found the leaks to be at the punch off points from the factory or I question if they were charged right from factory. I never remove my service fitting either and just let it on. Trying to pinch and braze it off again is just a possible leak again. With such a small charge to these units a micro leak can cause issues. Good catch on them having the fan cover in wrong. I completely agree with your comments about factory tech support being a pain and them reading from a book.

[@brnmcc01]

Yeah so many manufacturer's of these small reach in units just pinch off and don't even braze. I've cut the factory service lines off of newer True units, sweated on schrader cores and recharged, left the cores on (with brass caps) and no further issues.

[@brnmcc01]

I've used my D-tek Stratus for natural gas or LP gas with just the stock sensor. It works really good! Even goes off with a natural gas leak nearly too small to smell or even get 2-3 tiny bubbles.

[@HVACRSurvival]

I haven’t tried the traditional refrigerant sensor for hydrocarbons, I would be worried of missing leaks. However that’s interesting to hear. I may give it a test on it.

[@brnmcc01]

@@HVACRSurvival I wouldn't trust it to find tiny leaks but it seemed to work. I see you like to use the Super a lot, I usually start with the PPM cloud hunting mode, then maybe switch to super or low to pinpoint after I narrowed down where the highest PPM readings was. Probably better to use the right sensor, but it seemed to pick up a blown out natural gas pilot light from a decent distance away, and I tried it on a True R290 reach in glass door freezer a couple months ago, and was able to find the leak, the evap cover had fallen down from all the screws being stripped out, and when it fell, it busted a tiny hole in one of the cap tubes. So it had a pin sized hole, but the system was flat and it still picked it up. I wouldn't trust it to find small leaks, this one would have been audible if there was any pressure in the system. On that one I got lucky, the puncture in the cap tube was only about an inch from where it's brazed into the evap, so I just cut off about 2 inches from the cap tube, and brazed it back into the evap. The cap tubes on freezers are really long and I don't think 2" shorter would make much difference. This freezer had 2 condensing units connected to a 2 circuit evap, so it was still cooling on the other one, but that one was low on charge too, because the low side service tube had a tiny crack where they pinched it off at the factory. The good thing was 1 14oz can of R290 was exactly enough to recharge both units, and it's working great now.

[@brnmcc01]

I love that little scale! I might get one if I get more R290 leakers in the future.

[@HVACRSurvival]

It can be used with the fitting or a hose adaptor. The scale doesn’t time out as quickly as a food scale.

[@jasonjohnsonHVAC]

Good video Rick

[@DaleBranham-w4y]

16:32 they went from "you're not authorized to work on our equipment and claim a warranty" to " we can't find anyone else, so now you're authorized to claim a warranty". Gotta love it.

[@HVACRSurvival]

Yep 😂👍👍

[@jeremyvoshage2410]

Probably paid for 20% of his actual time spent so they don't care too much who works on them.

[@helmsajr]

Great job Rick

[@HVACRSurvival]

Thanks!

[@zekenzy6486]

Great video. Thank you for sharing

[@HVACRSurvival]

Thank you!

[@esgutierrez94]

I feel your pain with delfeild tech support. Ive found lots of leaks on their pressure switches and also txv welding.

[@johnwalker890]

Good job Rick.........

[@HVACRSurvival]

Thanks John!

[@natepeterson7145]

I would just get a permanent red marker and mark the process line. Whirlpool just has us put a sticker on after a sealed system repair. I replace about 1-2 compressors that are locked up from R600a. Those systems have to be clean. Only capillaries though so more potential restrictions.

[@jasonyeager9102]

Great video; I should talk the shop into getting one of the combustible cartridges for my leak detector, but for now the Inficon combustible gas detector is doing well for me for the time being. Probably won’t be long before I run into one of the newer Delfields…so far I’m not impressed with the longevity (or lack there of) with the A3 refrigerants.

[@mikafoxx2717]

I wouldn't blame the refrigerant, it's basically the same as R22 in use. It's the shittier quality work, QA, and possibly parts.

[@jasonyeager9102]

@ yeah I’ve been noticing that a lot too

[@sethanderson6444]

Have been told by True, you can use R134A with some nitrogen behind it so you don’t need the combustible leak detector.

[@HVACRSurvival]

I just watched a Delfield training video and they are not recommending the yellow leak detector anymore because the sensor loses its sensitivity. However, the detector I used is an infrared cell and therefore it should not lose any sensitivity just like it doesn’t on refrigerant. If you noticed the R-404 I added in the video was actually recommended to me by their service people, which is why I did it.

[@sethanderson6444]

@@HVACRSurvival yeah your leak detector is very nice! I actually posted this before I saw you use the R404a, should have waited till the end before I commented. I really like all your videos and how you explain everything you do. Helps me out substantially!

[@oscalerup1129]

Crazy. I’ve had issues with some of those fun off brand crap reach-ins with 134 and 290. Seems like even the “nicer built” ones have the same problems

[@shine-cg9uf]

👍💪🇺🇸❄️ great patience n resilience. I understand ur frustration. Love dogs 🐕 b well stay safe

[@terryh8421]

As always an interesting video.

[@HVACRSurvival]

Thank you!

[@jeffreylentz6699]

Thank you brother for all the videos your very inform And you were able Is new tools in my knowledge toolbox

[@HVACRSurvival]

Thanks Jeff!

[@randysmith3828]

Met with a rep from Follett and he was saying with the R290 and R 600 you can except an even shorter lifespan on ice makers and refrigerators. Not sure if you heard the same thing.

[@HVACRSurvival]

I don’t think I’ve seen an ice machines with the R290 in it, but so far it doesn’t appear that anything that is running on it has been operating as well as it used to.

[@randysmith3828]

@@HVACRSurvival sounds like in that meeting, Follett ice machines in 2025 will be running on R290 and their Med fridges will be using R600.

[@brnmcc01]

@@HVACRSurvival From the limited experience I've had with R290 systems, it seems like the pressures etc are very close to R22, but the discharge temps are a lot lower. On a low temp R22 system they used to have to do all kinds of things like liquid injection, demand cooling, head cooling fans etc, because the discharge temps were so high. On an R290 freezer I can touch the discharge line coming out of the compressor without burning my finger. I think it's a great refrigerant, and moves a lot of BTU's with a very small charge and the low discharge temps I think are a lot better than R134A, which get so hot with a dirty condenser coil that the POE oil forms waxes which clog up the cap tubes on small RIC's. The only downside is R290 is so flammable; just for fun on that True freezer when I was pulling a vacuum, even after I had already purged it with N2, and pressure tested to 200 psi, I was still able to light up a small flame on the exhaust from my vacuum pump with a Bic lighter! Pretty scary there is still enough residual R290, probably vapors from the compressor oil and windings. So I think if they built a system properly, and was leak free, I think there's potential for R290 systems to outlast R22 or R134A systems especially. Also the energy efficiency is better, and some places like southern CA the peak time electricity rates are over 60 cents a kwh/hr, so that adds up to $1000's of dollars of electric bills over 5 years of heavy use in a hot kitchen. Here in the midwest electricity is like 5 times cheaper, so not really an issue.

[@mikafoxx2717]

​@@HVACRSurvivalwhich is ironic to be because 290 is similar to R22 and can use mineral oil as well, which was much less problematic with moisture and lack of good purging. I take it thin copper, bad QA, too little oil charge + inverter tech lowering oil return, poorer engineering quality and so on adds up to the issues.

[@philltafolla]

Delfield , Manitowoc,. Welbilt same 💩different 🚽 🤷🏻‍♂️. Good video

[@HVACRSurvival]

Cool, thanks!

[@sherwinalvarez7365]

Whoa. What tablet is that. Wow. I may get one.

[@HVACRSurvival]

That is a iPad Pro 12.9 inch. I bought it so I could edit it videos with it and I haven’t used it for that yet. It’s a little expensive you can find ones and ones that aren’t brand new for a lot less. I needed to reinvest into the channel.

[@bensreferigeration]

Fancy stuff! I cannot figure out why these new r290 units have no leaks but are short on gas.

[@HVACRSurvival]

I’ve had a shit ton of leaks on the True units in the evaporator section. I’ve also had a shit ton of problems with their freezers, not defrosting because of the parameters that they chose to use with their newer control system on the LAE controllers.

[@brnmcc01]

@@HVACRSurvival I've gotten a bunch of some chinese brand equipment that has lasted longer than the newer True stuff which is way too expensive

[@lonelylupus5960]

On the crimp / solder seal connection from factory leak a lot. Found good bit of brand new units leaking from there .

[@HVACRSurvival]

You mean on the capillary tube area?

[@lonelylupus5960]

@@HVACRSurvival like where they charge up the unit from the factory & crimp it.

[@ulairecantea9231]

Rick, is it possible to share the link for that manual ? I would like to read more about new Delfield equipment. Worked on a ton of their coolers and freezers, and they had always issue with icing up even with R404A refrigerant. Thanks for great video.

[@natepeterson7145]

If you're a tech I'm sure you know they frown on that. Even though we have right to repair and should be able to get it free without an account. Probably can get a free copy online somehow if you can get the model number.

[@HVACRSurvival]

I believe it’s on their website. I saved it to my Google Drive.

[@timsky99]

at least when the fancy screen stops working in a couple of years, it'll be easy to just wire in a dixell and lose all the fluff.

[@HVACRSurvival]

True 😁👍

[@briancarlisi2224]

Thanks for posting. My time is nearing to work on R290/600 systems. What is that piercing valve p/n you used w/ your dial gauge? Overreacting DOE/EPA strikes again! Vote wisely folks this November! BTW, just got the scale and your code saved me around $17. Gracias!

[@HVACRSurvival]

Thank you for using it! It’s a JB tap i’ve had for several years, I don’t know if I hundred percent really like it, but you can give it a shot. It’s not much price difference between that and the cheaper bullet piercing valves, but it can be reused until the rubber starts to rot otherwise they make a vice grip style piercing tool that will do the same thing it’s made more for recovery of a system before you discontinue it.

[@SeanMackBuffaloStyle]

Few things I've seen....possibly wrong txv with such a low evap inlet.... You can check subcool on txv, usually over 15 degrees and the txv is locked up causing low Suction as well Good old r290 guessing game

[@SeanMackBuffaloStyle]

Txv system****

[@HVACRSurvival]

I would’ve had to tap the high side to get the sub cooling. I just watched a training video one of my viewers sent me for Delfield. I’m gonna post that at the top here in a little bit.

[@SeanMackBuffaloStyle]

I enjoy your videos, it's therapeutic to hear your thoughts on very similar bullshit

[@garypoplin4599]

22:11 - I’ve not seen taps like that before. What fitting are you using for your gauge on that process tube? They look much more substantial than the bullet piercing valves I’ve seen at the supply house.

[@HVACRSurvival]

That one was made by JB. It’s like a splitnut. There’s ones out there that you can get that looks like vice grips that will tap into it also.

[@AErefrigeration]

Hi Rick. Which r290 can are you using in this video? The cans I typically use do not have compatible thread size with that scale. By the way, I prefer working on r290 equipment over r134a. 290 doesn't restrict cap tubes. 290 can be vented, and the charge is much less. Cheers

[@HVACRSurvival]

Those are all valid points, I believe it was from Nu-Calgon

[@brnmcc01]

Yeah I've noticed that too, R290 has a lot lower discharge temperatures than R134a. Seems like the high temps of R134a combined with dirty condenser coils turns the POE oil into a wax gunk which clogs up cap tubes. And then the compressor burns out since it's not getting it's cooling from the cold return gas. Then you have the mess of a burnout combined with the clogged cap tube, and it turns into a nightmare. Time to buy a new fridge :)

[@SupermarketRefrigeration]

Nice job bud. Not the same unit, but I've had a bunch of issues with those True Blue Controller units icing up because of the evap sensors going bad. I just unplug those sensors when I see them now. Also, do you still do live streams?

[@HVACRSurvival]

I haven’t done the live stream for a while however, I have thought about doing it every now and again. So are you telling me that controller will work OK without the sensors? What will the system do without them?

[@SupermarketRefrigeration]

@HVACRSurvival I'm probably going to go live tonight for the first time. We'll see how it goes. As far as the True Blue Controllers, it will make the evap sensor show -50° which will just make it run a time defrost. I don't work on much delfield, but honestly the evap section of those cases look just like the little True 3door freezers. So it might be the same 🤷‍♂️ And to be clear, I'm just talking about unplugging the blue evap sensor.

[@royamberg9177]

more of the highschool engineers

[@johnstrh1]

Man, I work on a lot of Delfield in the kitchen refrigeration field and they are just complete junk. There’s also only one decent tech support guy, anyone else will give you no info or bad info and expect you to fix their garbage. I always get sad when my next call of the day is Delfield warranty

[@HVACRSurvival]

That’s very interesting to hear as somebody that doesn’t work on it often, sounds like what I assumed, I guess I’m not crazy

[@johnstrh1]

@@HVACRSurvival definitely not crazy. Delfield warranty calls are part of the reason I really want to find a way out and get into bigger stuff than just reach ins and walk ins. Sucks going into a chilis at 5pm during a dinner rush and trying to work on a piece of delfield crap that you know has a leaky evap before you even get there lol

[@jasontexter1721]

Delfield and Manitowoc are different now. Welbilt sold off Manitowoc to pentair in 2022?

[@jasontexter1721]

They had to do it because "Ali" the owner of Scotsman/iceomatic bought welbilt and the companies under one umbrella would be a monopoly. I used to work for a major ice machine leasing company 😂

[@HVACRSurvival]

Good to know! Thanks 👍👍

[@throttlebottle5906]

the original r290 leak search device, open flame... 🤣🤣

[@HVACRSurvival]

Why even look for a leak? It’s not hurting the environment.🤣

[@Josb_Bluebird2143]

I’d have to take out all that electrical garbage once out of warranty.

[@nonamesplease8228]

Tech support is not what it used to be for the most part. Tech support people used to have years in the field with actually knowledge. Now it seems like most of then are reading from a troubleshooting manual

[@HVACRSurvival]

I agree!

[@Pippy626]

They are not going to last long. The fan wire was on the drain pan evaporator coil fun fun fun. And looked like normal cheap computer style case fans in the coil

[@HVACRSurvival]

It’s interesting to hear others say they have had similar issues.

[@mattphillips4260]

i would be scared to work on the darn thing for fear of getting blamed for shit done to the damned thing

[@HVACRSurvival]

We take that chance on anything we work on.

[@CDX825]

Yo Rick whats going on with the FB page?

[@HVACRSurvival]

I don’t do anything on it anymore. You’re better off to follow me on Instagram. I post stuff there more often but even lately I haven’t been posting much of anything just because the drive is gone. I’ll bounce back. I’m sure sometime soon.

[@Paul-IE-Repairs]

does this make you "sealed system certified" lol

[@HVACRSurvival]

😂👍 sure.

[@samalmo]

I can't stand r290 equipment and all these expensive ECM motors, especially in freezers. All this efficiency never benefits the owner of the equipment, just allows the manufacturer to meet the dumb requirements of the government to sell it 😢 my customers always tell us to just do the work on there brand new delfields and forget about the parts and labor warranty due to the downtime and lack of communication from their authorized providers, they won't even send you parts and takes forever to get to a person in warranty dept by phone

[@HVACRSurvival]

That sounds familiar. 🤷‍♂️🤦👍

[@antihero2807]

im not a big fan of working on delfield. True is the best unit to work on...even the old ones LOL General rule of thumb with True...if its a new unit and its not working... its 290 and it has a leak hahhaha

[@royamberg9177]

got to save the planet stupidity

[@HVACRSurvival]

🌈🦄👍🤣

[@PuddinJr1993]

I seen a Samsung domestic refrigerator manual this week. 287 pages. So much bullshit.

[@hasangungor9558]

Will you give me an inficon gift? 😁

[@HVACRSurvival]

I wish I could get them to sponsor some giveaways. I’ll have to hit them up.

[@Irilia_neko]

This has to be made in the US can't be designed so badly otherwise 👀😅

[@Irilia_neko]

You aren't authorized, sorry, now you are 👀😹

[@HVACRSurvival]

That’s exactly what they did.