Fantasy Barbarians are RIGHT about armor

[@stephenmclement]

I think the difference between historical times and your LARP experience is that you can be confident that you won’t have to dispose of your shield mid-combat. A historical soldier during the Migration Era, and the Rohirim fantasy equivalent, might have their shield smashed by an ax, get a spear stuck in it, get filled with arrows, etc. while the shield wall holds, that person might shuffle to a back rank and let someone with an intact shield move up. However, once one line breaks, and the melee or rout begins, they would want armor in their vitals once their shield was gone. In a LARP, you can’t simulate those means of neutralizing shields, so you never have to worry about being without it.

[@georgethompson1460]

Not to mention windy days...

[@trovadordefloripa]

Some LARPs have shied hit points, once they reach 0 you have to drop it, to use it again you need to find a blacksmith to fix it, but I agree that in a LARP without rules like that a shied may become too invincible

[@foldionepapyrus3441]

A good point, and you also have to point out that just because you have access to shields doesn't mean you will always be using one - you might be working a ranged weapon or a pole arm where the big shield is far too in the way. So wearing all the protection you can get, especially with how long it takes to don and doff the armour means you might well be better off wearing it all the time, uncomfortable as it could be. Even more true of the adventurous party or bandit group than a true army - that smaller group gives you more roles to fill and likely no time to prepare for switching them. So any time you expect trouble could happen you probably want to be fully kitted out, but while you have the potentially erroneous feeling of safety in your travels you would want to be more comfortable, and if you can find the space have your more maintenance heavy weapons and armour well packed to preserve it.

[@murderyoutubeworkersandceos]

Interesting point

[@Specter_1125]

@@foldionepapyrus3441After plate armor came around, it offered much better protection than a shield on its own, which is why many people who wore it ditched shields.

[@ModernKnight]

Really interesting observation about how armour changes depending on your experience and the threat you may face. It also takes a while to optimise it and get used to it, which, I suppose is why veterans are much better than novices. They've seen it, done it and changed things to work better.

[@itsgorani9133]

Since you are our modern equivalent of the "wealthy knight in shining armour"Jason, could you share how many changes you had made to your jousting armour? I imagine every single piece and a lot of issues with the armour + specific saddle combinations as well. PS: Love your channel

[@ModernKnight]

@@itsgorani9133 good idea for a video, thanks. I've made lots of changes over time, some due to pinching injury during tournament.

[@foldionepapyrus3441]

Also really brings the point home that rotating the front lines matters if you want your troops to stay fresh enough to fight effectively. Which is another question that would be interesting to deal with the mounted fighters, and the barded mounts - you may not be putting in so much effort, so perhaps the full gear is of little import for overheating (at least in the cooler climates), but how hard can you really work the horses?

[@mansfieldtime]

@@foldionepapyrus3441 There was a tactic called "cycle charging" in Total war. In reality the heavy cavalry would charge in with a lance or spear, fight a little then retreat if the enemy did not break. They would head back to their "squire" for another lance. My guess is they would charge, fight for less then a minute then head back, rest for a couple minutes then charge with they saw an opportunity. Cavalry's main purpose was to break the defense so they had to be used selectively or risk being destroyed.

[@shadowofhawk55]

I absolutely love the point about changing for threats. Going to hunt humans? Bring a suit of plate. Hunting a Boar the size of a house or a Wyvern? Drop the armor, that is not helping you at all if one of those tusks or spikes hits you.

[@bestkoolaid1835]

As someone who has worn modern armor for a long time, heat is just something you have to deal with. But you did exactly what we all did, we took off all our extra arm, leg, and groin protection so we could be more mobile and less hot.

[@BreandanOCiarrai]

we would also take water bottles out of the cooler we had with us on patrol and shove them down the front between our chest and plate carrier. Helped keep us cool by pushing the plate off of our chest and creating some airflow (the water bottles warmed up in minutes, so the cold from the cooler didn't really factor in). So, airflow in armour is hands down one of the best ways to avoid overheating like Kramer had issues with

[@ahirzy007]

ex 11b (infantryman for those who dont know) 100% agree heat deal with it also wear it more and continuously adjust till its right

[@Killicon93]

@@BreandanOCiarrai Regarding that! I've seen some mesh liner vests that are meant to be worn under a plate carrier to allow for airflow. Though a lot of newer plate carriers come with a mesh underside. Think I'm gonna order a fishnet shirt for myself to see how it works together with my weight vest and another one to my buddy who's likely going to Ukraine.

[@KageRyuu6]

Yep, drink water and find a way to circulate air through your armor, usually by wearing it looser than normal or taking breaks to open it up. Also, lighter colors reflect more light away heating you up less, so avoid dark colors.

[@BlackIronGamer]

Fuck that combat chastity belt

[@theredfox22]

A common thing we see is the more armor a person wears the smaller the shield becomes until you get full plate where knights on foot with shields really weren’t a thing

[@itsgorani9133]

Some thoughts (from having 14th century kit of a town's citizen who has to participate in town defence and other armed duties): 1. LARP perspective on the head/helmet: You are most likely not allowed to aim for the head, so wearing a helmet does not seem to be as important. Realistically, there would be arrows coming in, stones from the walls, horsemen hitting you from above and spears thrust at your head. 2. HEMA perspective on the head/helmet: Once you wear a face mask (= helmet equivalent) I noticed a lot more strikes and stabs at the head, because you lose the caution not to hurt your fighting partner badly. 3. The heat: I loath going to events (not even fighting) with the gambeson + mail combination even when it is around 20°. You sweat a lot. It offers a far better protection against cuts, thrusts and blunt force than the combination of a tunic + mail, but I see why e.g. while marching or travelling (in an adventuring context) you would not wear the gambeson all the time. 4. Leg protection: I witness the same as you have. People fighting side by side in a shield wall get hit (mostly spear stabs) in the legs more often. I can't recall where I saw that on YT (Geschichtsfenster channel perhaps), but historically in sieges, soldiers often did not wear full leg protection (either because they had to climb ladders for mobility or the crenelations protect the lower half of the body anyway for defenders) 5. Dropping the body protection: You eliminate the protection from glancing blows, arrows from the side or back and the spear/sword stabs in a battlefield situation. While armour "points" might not be so important in a LARP, a small stab historically could be debilitating and weaken you so much (making a limb less mobile, blood loss over a few minutes with a shock following up) that you want wear armour 6. Tangling up in armour: I have made so many small alterations to my armour pieces, to stop chafing and tangling up with stuff myself. I think that's why custom made armour for knights and men at arms comes in. Those are so much more convenient to wear than munitions grade stuff a low soldier will piece together.

[@Glimmlampe1982]

The thing about less leg armor in sieges came up, I think, in Zac's armor review video with Andrejs/GESCHICHTSFENSTER armor in it

[@Zetact_]

The segment about getting tangled up in armor is also focused a lot on a couple assumptions of people having to carry all their equipment all the time (which was fairly common in historical contexts but not ubiquitous, especially not for a wealthy knight who could afford plate armor) as well as needing to go from a marching position to a battle position at the drop of a hat rather than having hours or even days of time to get ready before the engagement begins. So more like the "fantasy party" context. And also when talking about the danger of glancing blows historically it also is worth mentioning that something that wouldn't seem as big a deal and wouldn't drop you in a fight could still end a soldier's career if his flesh wound got infected or otherwise exacerbated.

[@Direblade11]

I just can't get over your second point. I HATE not being allowed to hit the head, as someone who does SCA swordfighting. With a shield, you need to hit the head or feint in order to exploit openings made from moving the shield. I LARPed once, and fought some power gamer with a thin, mildly sloped down sheet of white rectangular plastic. I had no way to hit his feet, and the rules made it so I couldn't throw a wrap and hit him in the back or break his shield. He just stood there, head entirely unguarded, with no way to hit any other target unless he was outnumbered.

[@KHfanz]

@@Direblade11 I had a similar experience, but base instinct had me keep cracking him in the head though since monkey brain said “it’s exposed, whack it.”

[@Direblade11]

@@KHfanz I love that simply because I can still imagine my guy's face and doing that to him xD

[@TheOfficialSaracen]

Hey Kramer, glad you liked the cloak! We’ll work more on the collar, thanks for the input!

[@sirzorg5728]

awesome companies pay attention to their community.

[@kdolo1887]

I think the issue here is that the larp downgrades the importance of armor. like in the battle of stamford bridge, the scandinavians were more seasoned fighters but didnt have their armor and they got pushed back into the ocean by the english who were mostly levies but did have armor. And yeah, Gladiators did it, because they had to.

[@marcogenovesi8570]

Gladiators were closer to wrestlers than to actual fighters. The point was entertainment, not fighting efficiency. There are still some old manuals about that

[@thalmorjusticiar1]

@@marcogenovesi8570 I imagine manuscript writers getting pissed at gladiators the same way some historians do toward movie choreography

[@SpiderboyN2Jesus]

@@patrickbateman3146 I believe arrow hits to the head are often the exception to the no head shots rule, so helmets would still have a purpose in a LARP.

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

Stamford bridge, surely?

[@kdolo1887]

@@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t yeah, that one

[@theromancatapult2922]

Theres something to be said about protection versus comfort. If you dont expect combat or much combat, choosing light and more comfortable armor for hours on end is the practical choice. Its when you expect or have a setting thats "War" in full combat where armor over comfort is what needs consideration. Thats why having modularity for different occasions is great so you can maximize the protection for the measured need of protection. (Which is why light sparring or fencing only uses padding, where as full contact ACS/ burhurt needs full plate protection).

[@cherylstraub5970]

There have been studies on the skeletal remains of men who died in the viking times. Many of their injuries are to their lower legs, especially their shins. For some reason the men didn't protect their lower legs with any sort of armor. Many of those skeletons showed what seems to be the order of attack of first their legs were taken out then a fatal head wound was administered. So I would suggest that at least on your leading leg you protect your shin. Your shield would provide some protection for your thigh.

[@benjaminparent4115]

They probably didn't because armor was expensive, there is a reason why the spear and axes were the common viking weapons instead of swords, that's because they require less metal are therefore way cheaper, sword and armor were for the wealthy.

[@Mithguar]

Your thighs were also protected if you had longer gambeson and chain mail. These often went to knee length.

[@Kuhmuhnistische_Partei]

@@benjaminparent4115 The main reason is that a spear and also those danish axes were more effective weapons on any kind of battlefield. A sword was nice to have, but it was more of a fancy sidearm and for personal protection. Even those who could afford swords would mainly fight with spears. Even the main weapon of knights were their lances, not their swords.

[@lukediehl1210]

I found an account of a crusader who was wounded in the leg during a siege and later died of infection. He was literally killed by an arrow through the knee. Not even joking.

[@benjaminparent4115]

@@Kuhmuhnistische_Partei I mean not really, it's close to the truth but it is a massive oversimplification of how sword and "sidearm" were used throughout history. The real problem is that the modern concept of sidearm, don't apply well to to ancient warfare, because while a modern soldier can finish an entire war without ever using its pistol in combat, an ancient soldier would use his sidearm in combat pretty often. Sure spears and pikes were great battlefield weapons, but they had obvious weaknesses, the main one being if your opponent found a way to close the gap you were at a disadvantage against smaller weapons. that's notably how famous sword infantry like the roman infrantry achieved to defeat spear infantry like the greek phalanx. That's also why during the pike and shot era infantry with shorter weapons like greatswords, halberd, or even sword and bucklers were mixed within the rank of a pike formation, and also why any good pike men would wield a short sidearm most of the time a sword. Polearm also have the inconvenient of being unwieldy especially in tight places, that means in any building or even in thick forest your sidearm was often the only weapon you could effectively used. And that bring me to my next point, war is not just about open battlefield. Sure knights would use lance in the open battlefield (though they would often quickly switch to their sidearm because lance would often break after a single use), but open battlefield weren't the only kind of battle they participated in skirmishes but also raid party called chevauchée were they would pillage and burn the enemy territory. And during all of those engagement sidearm and notably sword were popular. A viking raiding a home would probably enter axe or sword in hand rather than spear in hand for all of those reasons. Ultimately those who could afford a sword would fight with both because there is always a time for the spear and a time for the sword. That's why having both is the best.

[@jesperstansson]

A head wrap like a shemagh or even an arming cap can solve the helmet issue and also help regulate your temperature. Wearing a gambeson in warm weather requires sweating into your underclothes to help cool you. Lots of hydration required. A hot day in armor is a sticky experience. Kudos on your channel! Hope to see you appear at the Connecticut faires again one day!...

[@hanelyp1]

Sweating can't cool you unless the sweat can evaporate, and the cooling conduct back to your skin.

[@jesperstansson]

@@hanelyp1 gambesons are by no means air or water tight and usually allow for some evaporation, not much though. When peeling a gambeson off at the end of the day, the saturated cotton undertunic immediately feels cold once the open air hits it. It's quite a refreshing sensation, and it proves your point to be quite correct...

[@als3022]

i gather the material of a gambeson is th biggest issue. I have worn a shirt, waistcoat, and wool coat in 80 degree weather. The wool soaks up your sweat and evaporates it slowly. Just have to worry about the hydration. Learned that with heat exhaustion. I just barely got to the firing line.

[@Visigoth_]

The whole "less armor is better" totally makes sense (from the perspective of a "game," you can "respawn" so you aren't actually "risking" the only life that you have).

[@hexazalea]

Perhaps in video games in TTRPGs you still die and even in 5e well known for being very non lethal Resurrection can be a logistical nightmare.

[@Visigoth_]

@@hexazalea No, "you don't die" your Character does. 😉 - You're thinking in terms of "game-logic" (I get your point, but that's not really what I meant. I meant "it's a game" not reality, so there aren't any "life or death stakes." in which case it's not surprising that someone would favor speed and mobility over protection). Edit: *High Risk, High Reward.*

[@Zack_Wester]

I think its more of a. heavy armor takes time to put on and it tires you quickly or as seen here heats you up quickly. and as a adventuring party (trygdvall even had this simulated and that called living in armor). and that was sort of wearing heavy armor 24/7 was bad. you needed to take it off often to not suffer penalty and putting on a full plate armor or just heavy chain whit under armor took several minutes. plus most RPG system dont really have 200 vs 200 people battles formed in several lines where the front can shift back every few min to get a drink (what happen in real life) they have skirmish parties fighting where there is only one at best 2 lines of peale meaning if your on the front your on the front until the end and if you end up to tired you can´t swift back and rest. and to be honest I think the ods of you know army vs army thats sort of pre planed to happen so that you can put on the army shortly before the start is rarer. at least more rare then two parties stumbling on each other or a party ambushing another and so on.

[@Visigoth_]

@@Zack_Wester I dunno... look at actual combat games (like SCA Pensic War, or Gulf Wars). Some guys go with minimal armor (and are willing to take the risk of serious injury) and others aren't (accepting the drawbacks/discomforts for the protection). I imagine "just like in reality," if your life was on the line... most would still wear the bulletproof vest "even when walking their beat."

[@Visigoth_]

I was thinking about this some more: One exception is "cultures that glorify death in battle" (one example would be the Scandinavian cultures who believed in Valhalla). On the tactical scale (the foot soldier/ Adventurer) it's a zero-sum game (either you "win" or you "lose"), on the strategy scale (the leaders/generals) it's not a zero-sum game. Otherwise it seems to be the case that "you would go with the best that you could afford/gain access to" (since you didn't want to die, or suffer serious injury): your goal was/is to survive (and win). You would want any advantage that you could get over your competition (if you started with it, or acquired it, or just adapted it: preparidness and injunity/adaptability will always win the day).

[@Jonalith]

You may want to get in contact with Tom over at Fandabi Dozi if you're going to be getting into great kilts. He's been testing it's efficacy in wilderness situations based on historical texts. (plus I think a colab between the two of you would be neat)

[@CalistoCleaver]

Came to the comments to see if anyone mentioned Fandabi Dozi 🫡

[@ThaLoser]

bump

[@danielmejorado6098]

I was just going to recommend that same collaboration. @fandabidozi

[@charliemcdowell5231]

I second this! Fandabidozi is awesome and a colab would be great

[@beksc9209]

Glad I read down a ways---I thought of Fandabi Dozi, too!

[@Specter_1125]

You may want to look into Tod Cutler’s recent tests with javelins against shields and maille. The javelins could piece far enough where it could still severely injure you behind it. Not only that, the shield now has several feet of shaft sticking out of it, making it incredibly unwieldy. It’s also difficult to pull out.

[@LivingAnachronism]

Very good point, and something to consider, shield breaks, it's game over

[@JagerIV]

This though might highlight the difference between "military" and "civilian" use though: an adventurer or raiding force like the barbarians where your dealing with small group fighting, the number of javelins you need to deal with would be much lower. And if you do get your shield taken out by a javelin, the other guy only has maybe 2 more of them? in which case your chance to either charge him before he throws again might not be too terrible, or because its a small group, the cost to just run away is much lower than a battle, where you have to hold ground to maintain formation and position. Which then makes sense for adventurers and barbarians: an adventure or barbarian raider depend much more on individual mobility, so less armor makes sense, your ideally only engaging small unit battles, having something after the first javelin/arrow volley is much more important, and where the most viable option to any hard fight is to just run away, which the armor makes more difficult.

[@tekken.universal2343]

@@LivingAnachronism that's why taking of armor is insane idea

[@DieNibelungenliad]

Tod Cutler's shield is less than 3 pounds in weight, whilst a normal medieval shield is over 7 pounds in weight. Also, his shield has a classical Greek arm strap but no classical Greek bronze plate on the shield that was the sole reason the arm strap was on it, so he's needlessly having an arm pressed against the shield

[@Kanudelgruber]

Roman gladiators were dressed for a very different situation from medieval warriors, but then again, so are adventurers, so if it works then go for it.👍

[@FrenchLightningJohn]

gladiator had different class and each class had different set, and it was mostly for show and didn't fight to the death, most warrior when they could even if they had a shield always wanted to have armour since even a glancing blow to your chest can be debilitating and incapacitate you from battle while in armour a glancing blow will do nothing

[@rangerstedfast]

Good comment👍

[@Melanrick]

Gladiators were dressed for show. It was about how beautiful they would be just like in a fantasy setting. It wasn't meant to give them more chances to survive, they were all meant to die at one point or another.

[@FrenchLightningJohn]

@@Melanrick no that is extremely false, like i said gladiator had classes as in rpg term, and each one had their equipment, fighting styles and even which class they fight against, and it was not to the death, most of them were free men so they don't want to die for nothing, and the slaves one were heavy investments and nobody wants to lose their investment, not saying death didn't occur it just was not to the death, they were more like ancient wwe type entertainment

[@squirrelsyrup1921]

Correct, most gladiatorial matches were non-lethal. When gladiators were to battle to the death, it became a major event. Life and death situations are very expensive for everybody concerned.

[@nulliusinverba6235]

The one counter argument that comes to mind for me is arrows on an actual battlefield. LARP combat melee is very like gladiatorial combat and does not have any archers with deadly intent picking out targets that aren't expecting their attack at range. Taking a dirty arrowhead between the ribs or in the back would be a real problem before modern medicine.

[@MalloonTarka]

The LARP I go to does; granted, not from the same range as real life archers, since, rounded and soft arrowheads or no, the drawweight still can't be realistic or else you'll end up hurting people. But the rules _also_ (used to) say that unless you are wearing a gambeson + plate, the arrow goes straight through armour (but not shields), which partially cancels out the above, so...

[@nulliusinverba6235]

@@MalloonTarka I do think there may be archers in a gladiatorial arena as well, but I would expect the fighters to know exactly where those archers are so they can keep an eye on them and raise shield to defend against them. I believe in LARP there would also be a liability concern if you did not know what could happen in it -- if somebody just up and shot you by surprise (which a sniper is going to want to do...) and you were expecting melee fighters only, that would cause an uproar, right?

[@MalloonTarka]

@Nullius In Verba Not in the LARP I go to (ConQuest of Mythodea). There, we face off with our army against the hordes of the opposing army. Archers are common on both sides, usually situated just behind the shield wall. You usually know they're there, if not exactly where they are. But it's not uncommon to be shot unexpectedly and you're expected to treat it just like any other wound/hit.

[@nulliusinverba6235]

@@MalloonTarka Ok, that does sound like a more realistic emulation of combat than normal. I do still think being lightly armored with a shield is a great option there because of the extra mobility but at least light chest protection would be nice, kind of like how it is when fencing with blunted foils. But, if someone was trying to surprise me with a bladed arrow I'd prefer the tougher leather armor and not just padded cloth.

[@rangerstedfast]

Again, if your shield is the right size, in a real battle you will most likely be facing the enemy army and not need to worry much about getting an arrow in the back, particularly if fighting in a shield wall. I would've definitely added a helmet, even though it also bugs me

[@gozer87]

There is definitely an element of conditioning to getting used to wearing armor. When I was stationed in New Mexico and Texas I found that military training in chem warfare gear acclimated me to fighting in armor. Ventilation is key.

[@grbdevnull5611]

For the shield strap (guige) and any tied cloaks, I strongly recommend looking at an arborist's quick hitch knot. It holds two cords (or two ends of the same cord) together securely but is super fast to release (just leave the correct end long and yank on it like a rip cord). For the guige, you could make the main strap the longer length and then add a couple of ties that, when connected, shorten the strap to the smaller desired size. Those two ties can be connected with an arborist's quick hitch so that you just tug the free end, the knot comes out and the weight of the shield extends the strap to the full length.

[@chamomilecraft]

Honestly, I had a similar realization while prepped for LARP this year. My experience was mostly unarmed so I came into armor thinking, “I know I want to use a spear…if I do where is my enemy hitting me and what do I want to do about it?” I chose to armor my forearms heavier than anything else, light armor on my torso so I’d be as fast as I could get. Can confirm with a long spear, the spear itself was all I needed to defend my torso. Hard to get past the reach advantage and the pole really doubles as a decent shield once you get used to it. Much like you said, my forward arm got sniped a lot and occasionally my forward leg when fighting another pole. Seeing plate on my forearms though, people tended to try to rush in to go for my body and that made life easier for me.

[@StarlasAiko]

Wearign a full Gambeson under your armour was bound to cause problems. A gambeson is a type of armour in its own right. The "gambeson" worn under armour (known as arming gambeson) is a lot thinner, a lot less layers of cloth and no padding, it is worn purely to prevent scafing and pressure sores from wearing your real armour directly on skin (or on just a single layer of linen).

[@Kuhmuhnistische_Partei]

Yeah, I think people call way to many different things "gambesons" just because they learned it from Shadiversity or whatever. I would rather refer to the broad category as textile armor and see gambeson as a specific type of textile armor that fits your description as armor on its own. Although I think gambesons and mail was sometimes worn together, but the gambeson would be over the mail. It's better to wear a bigger gambesone so you can wear mail under it than the other way around because then you would need a bigger hauberk which would mean more material which means more weight.

[@SandraOrtmann1976]

Another factor might be that the Rohirrim ride and fight on horseback. That is a deciding factor regarding the heat of your armour. Also, AFAIK, real knights trained from a very early youth and from then on basically all of the time. Which nobody of us really does nowadays. Our stamina simply might not be up to the task of "fighting in armour".

[@BreandanOCiarrai]

also, Rohan was not exactly a warm place, probably comparable to Northumbria weather-wise, peaking at 74F/23C degrees in the summer. Still warm enough to be uncomfortable, but I've fought in full kit in Texas in 93F/34C and was dying before the battle even started :D

[@KageRyuu6]

Depends on the knight, but their training was probably closer to modern fitness programs than not. After all knights also had lands and to peasants to oversee, so they likely couldn't devote as much time to fitness as modern body builders do.

[@decanusmorte]

If you work out and condition yourself for wearing armor you'll be fine.

[@nobleinsurance26]

This is the thing that I see larpers not wanting to admit. A HUGE part of military training it cross country marching, camping, weapons training, and battle drills in full gear.

[@tarantasaurus4177]

My understanding is that active Knights were basically the Pro Athletes of their day - best food, best training, customized armor, etc. So it makes sense that a 'normie' would be huffing and puffing after a few hours in armor, even when it was the height of protection

[@lyvras]

not just gladiators but also roman legionaries started to use the so called "manica" into battle during and after the Dacian wars. Like in your setup it was an asymmetrical design and it worked apparently pretty good. they still used breastplates/mail/scale armor tho. Edit: and helmets

[@highlorddarkstar]

A shield makes up for a lot of armor. Particularly when held up in front. You might note that the shield disappeared from suits of full plate ( outside the joust), primarily due to the lack of need. In addition, in hot countries the standard seems to be a blade and shield. Just remember, Europe is further north than the US (and less humid).

[@DieNibelungenliad]

Shields were used along with full plate armour in the 15th century. Plate was still thin and not enough to protect against bludgeons and lancing

[@MyElite25]

As a kilt wearer myself I'd love to see the great kilt vs rowana cloak video

[@issinho]

I think it would be an interesting comparison: Rowanan Cloak vs a great kilt

[@ScribeAdept]

Loved the whole video but the " ........ geese" moment was EPIC.

[@kencoffman7145]

As a left handed person this is very informative. Often I find that, even though I gain many advantages, my strong arm is constantly at risk. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

[@randomusernameCallin]

There an entire engineering branch about wearable items. I say instead of copying the look instead go from monder armor and go backward. Also I am sure knights and others spent hours training in their armor for it to work well. Plus I can see armies having different "uniforms"/armor set up base on what they were going to do. That is what monder arm forces does.

[@nostalji93]

An archer obviously has different set of armour than heavy infantry or cavalary.Also italian tourney armour was known for being assymetrical with one more armoured and one more mobile side.

[@randomusernameCallin]

@@nostalji93 I am sure knigh would not wear their full armor set as they march. I can see wearing something like gambeson and key armor pieces while on the road then switch to more heavy armor when you know there a good chance their would be a battle.

[@MsJackle99]

I believe the answer to your armor dilemma is mail. It is very simple to make and looks absolutely fabulous. It does require a lot of time to complete but this can be done during any idle time without much attention at least during the initial repetitive stages. It can be made out of fence wire, which can be purchased in large spools fairly cheaply, or aluminum wire. Both works equally well. Fence wire will give the weight and feel of real armor but is prone to rusting. Aluminum wire will not rust and is almost weightless but will not give you that armor feel as much. If you are interested in making a Hauberk and have any questions, I would be happy to advise and assist. I have been making mail off and on for about the last forty years. Now that I am retired, I find myself gravitating back to the interests of my n'er-do-well youth and now have the time to explore them once again.

[@chuckcottrill]

Having made and worn both stainless steel, fence wire, and aluminum wire based chainmails, the stainless is by far the best. aluminum will stretch and lose links (unless you rivet or weld each link) and fence wire rusts.

[@NevisYsbryd]

Ah, heat. That is one of the primary design considerations in the creation of armor. I am guessing that most of your textile apparel and armor is cotton. Cotton is a pretty good insulator and is very non-breathable, making it a relatively inadvisable choice for armor, especially in a warm/hot environment if you can help it. A friend of mine often wears a coolant pack (I think liquid nitrogen?) under his kit. Staying in shade where possible, wearing an outer layer that absorbs less heat, having slits in fabric for venting and so on all add up. Some of the problems that you are facing with the shield are that your shield is really small for a shield wall. Round shields usually had a much wider radius and many used longer, non-round shields that covered the legs. Gladiators were in costume, not combat armor. LARP usually severely downgrades the importance of armor from real combat. That said, jack-chains were also a thing.

[@defaultytuser]

I used to think this topic was a super _niche_ thing that only I obsessed about but , happily, it seems that a lot of people are engaging. This channel is gold, thanks K!

[@jessegitchell8114]

As one of those great kilt commenters, I am eagerly awaiting that cloak comparison video. Also, I find that heavy armor is best for an aggressive combat style. Allowing the armor to defend you while you put the hurt on your foe.

[@TheMadPoetHimself]

Loving the new logo animation! And yes, shields can solve everything. Especially big ones.

[@dronesclubhighjinks]

Yes, you look hot! Thank you for providing real world updates! The day they filmed the battle in the forest at the end of Fellowship of the Ring was a clear day, which apparently is New Zealand means it's very very hot. All those stunt actors were wearing the rubber Uruk suits and horsehair wigs + helmets. Feinting and fainting! If you have the LOTR extended edition DVDs, turn on the directors' comments, and listen to them talk while that scene is going on. The camera work they did was amazing. -I know this isn't historically accurate, but using a Camelback can help your hydration during combat. -Regarding chest armour, I think in a medieval battle, you were not only fighting against other dudes with swords, but you could also be killed by archers. Glad you're having fun! Thanks for the video!

[@ThePageTurnerPT]

Oh! I was at this event and physically present when Kramer made this observation! Very cool to see it as a video now Edit: I myself also armored down a lot. I have the same cuirass (modified a bit differently, but similarly), a light colored gambeson, and chainmail with some leather pauldrons, and leather lacing bracers. Yeah I 100% also took all of the chest stuff off because it was way too hot and way too heavy. I need to do a lot of conditioning with the chainmail to get used to that added weight. The gambeson also locked in a lot of heat. And it was sleeveless, but there was no ability to get air under it to help cool me down. I took off the gambeson, chainmail, and breastplate because it was just much easier to operate in, in terms of thermal regulation. I also was using a big sword in two hands and a buckler for at least some protection

[@cryptokev1759]

Yes for the kilt vs cloak video!

[@bigbadwolfstudios1]

I'd definitely recommend talking to Tom from the KZbin Fandabi Dozi, he does a lot of historical highlander content and tests the usefulness of the skills and tricks they'd utilize

[@arranbtag]

Literally frantically quick reading the comments to see if anyone had posted this 🤣 Kramer did actually mention Fandabi Dozi channel in a previous video too

[@morgansmith1930]

And he talks about kilts!

[@Blaze21iz]

This was why I wore white the entire time. Everything was super comfortable and Magnus did a LOT of running lol

[@TheUnclefester13]

I don’t LARP but I love weapons and armor and such. You save me so much time and effort as I’m trying to build my own armor. Working on chain mail right now while eyeballing laminar armor. Modern armor protects the vitals with ten x twelve plates front and back and six by four plates on the side. All from the ribs up. Everybody wants to be an invincible tank. But very few have the the strength and endurance to wear the things necessary. And the mobility and endurance that’s lost negates the protection that is gained. Love this channel

[@MacAttack001]

Metal armor is a reverse radiator, if it is hot out side it's going to super heat you and if it's cold you are going to be chilled to the bone by it. Leather armor is interesting because in the cold it actually insulates you a bit (definitely stops the wind) but when it is hot you are going to feel that heat by multiples. Shad goes on and on (and ON) about gambesons, fact is if you are in the heat it feels like you are wearing a parka, at Reckoning I wore mine most of the time and it kept me plenty warm. As far as conditioning yourself for the heat, I use my steam sauna daily for 20 minutes and it has allowed me to take higher temps for longer periods (the health benefits of a steam sauna are pretty impressive as well). The best work around for the vambraces in my opinion is going to be making leather elbow cops that attach to them to your rerebrace and then hook them into the vambraces. Personally I use the Footman LARP Shield (Medieval Collectibles) with a length of 35.75 inches for that extra vertical coverage paired with the Ox-Tongue LARP Partisan (Medieval Collectibles) at 74.8 inches long. Reach is KING (Oak Troll Slayer proved that multiple times at Reckoning), the Ox-Tongue let's you reach and touch some one while using a big shield. All we use are Ruana cloaks, your video on that was absolutely spot on and we love ours! :)

[@smokerxluffy]

You can work with the maille's properties: in hot climates wear it close to your skin and covered from the sun, so it takes heat from your body rather than the surroundings.

[@Victor-dm4qv]

5:03 I will never tell you! I will take it to my grave. My favorite part of the video was the realization you came upon how donning a lot of armor, though beneficial for most people, was in fact counterintuitive to what was actually better for you. And, how the desire to be historically accurate and wanting to avoid what is considered fantasy was in fact holding you back from doing something that would greatly improve your performance. When I channel my inner Shad, I do think that when you got enough armor on, you can forgo the shield entirely and choose a weapon with greater range; like a spear (as was common for the Rohirrim). But thank you for this video. Though it should have been obvious to me, you opened my eyes that short and light men would not benefit nearly as much from wearing a lot of armor, especially full body armor. I am an pretty average in height, but I have a natural stocky build, often times looking stronger than I actually am, so I feel I might make for a better "tank" than you. I also have a natural mean, scowling look, so I also appear more threatening... My eyes are opening to all kinds of things today.

[@susanbarks2354]

"...Hot! They're just really hot.... geese..." 😂 Would be interested in the great kilt vs ruana video

[@timhornbeck2065]

Would love to see a comparison of the great kilt and ruana cloak! Awesome video!

[@lunalupus63]

While LARPing isn't something I'm that familiar with, I do enjoy these videos, interesting from a writer's point of view especially as you demonstrate each point you make. The leather ASMR added a medieval authenticity 😊 And yes please to a ruana cloak vs great kilt video!

[@ianwalker3144]

I'd LOVE a Ruana v great kilt video! I have no first hand experience here, but I've heard from SCA fighters that full armor is too much armor. Many of the experienced combatants in my area wear the minimum required for the reasons you gave; too hot, too cumbersome, and redundant. Also, Matt Easton had a guest on that said modern gambesons are too thick compared with historic examples. Thanks for your input and inspiration, my friend!

[@crusty_cannibal]

First time poster, so go me. I've been involved in full-contact larp (Dagorhir specifically) for 16+ years, and I've found much the same conclusion as you when it comes to armor encumbering more than helping. My only critique is your vulnerability to wrap-shots to your shield-shoulder. Being that your shield is on the smaller side (I use a roughly 2.5ft by 4ft scutum to prevent wrap shots specifically) your left shoulder is gonna be a tasty target. Adding a bit of coverage, in the form of a 'half chest' leather piece as opposed to a pauldron, might save you a few deaths. Keep in mind, these are observations based on a combat system that doesn't use armor points of any kind. In Dagorhir armor protects what it covers, only guards against a single 'hit' (meaning that two-handed weapons cut through armor like it isn't even there), and a shot to an unarmored upper shoulder is a death blow. Either way it's food for thought. Love your content, keep it up! ❤

[@kris99596]

Yes, do the great kilt video. As far as historical accuracy, we base most of that on paintings and the like, but perhaps they're portraying the full armor because it looks good that way.

[@HazzaTheFox]

Absolutely awesome! I had a sword/shield infantry idea where his only armour was helmet, neck and his right arm. It's awesome to see this idea build from an actual combat test (though I'm surprised only the arm defenses ended up being necessary)! I reckon the reason it was so rare could have been cost; Gladiators could afford to be expensive, everyone else probably made a beeline to full suits if they could afford arm defenses. The closest battlefield analogue were British harquebusier cavalry (one armoured glove, breastplate and helmet)

[@joshicus_saint_anger]

I've been a long proponent of Gladiator-like armor for adventurers. Our kits are not generally meant for war but for duels and small skirmishes. And like you said, a good shield just does so much for you, it's really all you need in a lot of cases.

[@leedogg6120]

Kramer, A great kilt video would be good & do you have any videos of your adventures you can share?

[@ni-filoop4410]

To answer your classy question: In my humble opinion, yes.

[@robertmacdonald6592]

So much of the historical armor, depends upon location, opponent and season / weather. A mid to late fall Scandinavian or northern Europe conflict, the gambison and full gear would have been ideal for retaining body heat. That same location in warmer months, would have necessitated stripped-down gear, so that you don't succumb to the elements before your enemy. The same applies while battling in the Mediterranean. Fighting in the black forest in February versus fighting in North Africa in February are slightly different even though North Africa can be colder than people would suspect.

[@SupremeOverlord-h9s]

I've been looking for a great ruana cloak thank you kind sir!

[@Cascadian_Ranger]

You're actually coming onto some asymmetrical armour setups I've always been intrigued by, for much of the reasons you've experienced. Having it on the right side makes sense if that's what you are presenting to the opponent more. I would be curious if there will ever be a development of modern rifle plates/soft armour covering the left shoulder and not the right, simply because you present more of that shoulder when shooting. Good video!

[@brianleben4893]

Yeah very true. Plus you have to also take into account how expensive armor was. So, many average people pressed into service or battle would use what they could get their hands on. Many could only get a helmet, maybe some basic arm and lower leg protection at best so the shield was by far the most important thing they had.

[@patrickbateman3146]

Yes we want a ruana vs great kilt video.

[@Aaron-io8vw]

A arming cap would solve the problem with the helmet

[@richardmarriott-smith9517]

I love the sound of the squeaky leather armour. You look amazing in your full Rohirrim armour.

[@karladenton5034]

Please on the kilt video! You need an arming cap or coif for your helm. And a hat pin for your hat (doubles as a stiletto - the Victoria ladies were on to something).

[@garland336]

The only things I'd consider adding would be a gorget and perhaps a small threat plate to the chest.

[@septimus64]

Besides being ineffective in combat you found the other weakness of leather it's HOT. Chainmail FTW

[@widgren87]

While I never got into Larp or re-enactment one of my cousins did, mostly because of his girlfriend at the time, but he had great success with just a helmet, shield and axe. Also something you could look into when doing a "sword-n-board" setup is wearing your sword on your right hip, Lindybeige has a nice video on it. Anyway, this was a another fun one and best of luck to you.

[@August_Mannaz]

Lets Gooo.... The man is back !!!!!

[@goudeaulthyme]

Absolutely lovely video! I expect nothing less! The new getup is beautiful!

[@Hathur]

For what it's worth.. humans didn't figure out chin straps for helmets "properly" until after WWII. Even soldiers in WWII more often than not refused to use the strap because it was a hindrance / liability. Modern helmets today finally are designed quite well and when used right, work very well at securing helmets. It only took thousands of years of civilization and armor design to get there though.

[@benjaminblack4345]

And yes on the kilt versus ruana video.

[@Dragonslayers-guild]

Would absolutely love to see the great kilt v ruana video

[@jsmxwll]

My priorities have always been hand protection > shield > helmet > leg protection. If I've got those covered, I feel pretty comfortable. Leg protection can be a mixed bag for me depending on terrain and opponent though. I'm not the most nimble person out there, and trying to move quickly with anything extra on my legs can tire me out. Shields are pretty OP if you aren't worried about them breaking or being grappled.

[@voggi9450]

For your knot, you can make it quick release with a "happy knot" when pull your final bit of rope through your knot to finish it, before doing so, make a "bite" in the rope/ double it over on its self and pull a bit of the loop you made through. Leave a tail out of your knot and that is what you pull on to release.

[@jananay2768]

Kilt! Having watched Fandabi Dozi’s video on the subject several times, I find the use and versatility of the great kilt quite interesting. I look forward to the comparison you might provide, and can absolutely recommend his video for research, as well as a quick and helpful guide to wearing the kilt. As for the armor, it almost seems the most historically accurate method is using what functions best for you. Furthermore, there may not be historical precedent, but there’s certainly a reason for asymmetrical pauldrons, at least from a design standpoint.

[@hyperguyver2]

Back when I was involved in LARPing my kit was a leather head crown (Think Conan the Destroyer) a hardened leather pauldron ony left shoulder, a pair hardened leather bracers with a fur cuffs for comfort, a leather kidney belt, a punch shield, my sword, hand axe, spear and greaves. This kit is 100% LARP practical and can be outfitted with virtually every kit

[@randomusernameCallin]

For the knot 1. pinch the rope near where the two places you want near where you want to the ropes to be tighten at 2. pull the extra rope so the no slank and gran the end of that that piece. 3. make a loop in the extra part 4. puish the middle of the extra role into the loop while make end of the extra does no go through. 5. slowly pull the slank out of the loop through the ends of the rope. When you want it untied then you grab the end of the extra part and yank.

[@TheAyeAye1]

Yes please on the kilt vs cloak video.

[@PeregrinTintenfish]

Irish warriors are shown in some art works as wearing arm amour on one arms, and that was it.

[@nostalji93]

Note late midevil italian tourney armour was also asymmetrical. Thats another historical reference for it next to the gladiators from the antiquity.

[@ReasonAboveEverything]

Leather armor cracling is relaxing 😌.

[@thondaar1863]

One of the Friends you showed (The one clad in armor that is covered in nordic knotwork) got his set from Enric Pujol. You should check him out he makes amazing armor!

[@karliikaiser3800]

I wear my Gambeson just in Winter, its like a really good jacket. If it has like 10 degrees outside I start to sweat if I do more than sitting or walking around... I´ve got two great kilts they are nice and multipurpose, but not fast to put on, they are on the heavy side of clothing, but they can be worn in summer if you wear nothing else, and in autumn if you wear a shirt beneath and something above, I understand why the nothern Celts wore this. But modern clothing and even medieval clothing is so much faster put on. Thats the reason for the modern Kilts to appear. I think for adventuring full armour is not good. Even medieval people just wore their Full suits of plate armour just in the moments they where needed. Battles, and jousting. Whilst traveling around doing some orders or missions I would guess noone would have worn a full suit of armour. The shield and helmet are the most important pieces.

[@hugefriend514]

I found your channel through Shadiversity and I’m really glad I did. I love your content. Keep up the good work!

[@timjohnston9928]

Fascinating observation that couldn't be more perfectly timed. My LARP moved to a new property that's a lot more hilly than the last and I was debating just getting a large shield instead of more armor. I think I will take a page out of your book.

[@niofo7713]

youtube just randomly recced me your videos and i love them, esp this one. i just finished rereading the last herald mage by mercedes lackey and loved how your journey of ditching most of your gear resonates with what vanyel did in first book - like i obviously thought it was just a fantasy thing in the book and needed for plot reasons, but nice to see there is some actual merit to it (and you totally could play van in some live action adaptation, you look just right for the role) but also the rohirrim armor looks super cool

[@LuxisAlukard]

Both you and gladiators didn't have to worry about arrows/stones/javelins/bolts. Do you think that makes the difference between your armour at the beginning and the end of that LARP?

[@laisphinto6372]

or roman pillum spam

[@lucaevangelisti2286]

Another good example of asimmetry in armor I think would be the Italian milanese that had differently sized pauldrons while still being a full suit of plate armor

[@Rindsgulasch]

What I discovered with a boss grip shield is: mount the strap near the rim instead of on the grip. This way, the shield hangs a little lower, your arm slips through easier when you swing it forward, and you can have it hanging in front of you without holding it, still protecting your torso. And lastly, if you grip the shield when the strap is around your chest and head, with the strap mounted near the rim, you don't need to fiddlle with the strap to get it off. You just lift the shield so the rim is at head height, rotate the shield in the boss grip and the strap simply goes over your head.

[@markuspalme7359]

When fighting in a gambeson in summer heat I made good experience with dumping a bottle of water inside while dressing up for a battle. Without the water I would sweat, so that the gamboson would be soaking wet nonetheless. With the water applied before a battle the evaporation cooling began right from the start, so I didn't sweat as much. This works better with a linen gambeson than a cotton one. Filling/padding can also inflluence this. The more breathable the material the better. Additionally linnen will not smell that bad after drying. Also: always rehydrate. The most important poeple on the battlefield are the water bearers, that go around and distribute water to the fighters.

[@SirDarthDragon]

I did once compare D&D barbarians to the Zulu, in the 1964 movie a swiss mercernary says the Zulus can "run, RUN! 40 miles a day and fight a battle at the end of it." Also asymetrical "armour" was used by husars of the 19th century.

[@InfrnalWraith]

I can’t express how happy your videos make me. I found your content when looking at making a cloak. Thank you for the content, please keep it up

[@Gilleban]

You'll be happy to know that in the time that I've been watching your videos I've upgraded my Wasteland Weekend kit to include TWO ruana-style cloaks...one in wool, made from an old army-style blanket, and another made from a cheap Harbor Freight tarp...the tarp for "camo," the wool for late-night warmth.

[@robertneal4244]

The reason for wearing more comprehensive armor is for when things go wrong. When you are ambushed or travelling, armor on your chest, back and head will prrotect you while you are getting ready to fight. Heat and exhaustion were always considerations and sometimes soldiers fell in battle when they became so tired, they couldn't defend themselves and a peasant in a linen tunic killed them with a wooden pitchfork. (Not very sexy....but it happened)

[@wanderingstranger8944]

My suggestion for a rope management knot would be to pinch the two parts together then treat that like one langth. Make an over hand knot with your twist and all that. Before putting the working end through make a loop that can push through your work. Then the work end can loop through once more pulling tight. It makes this interesting braided look but only requires 1 strand

[@paulred1604]

I really like this concept for Larp. After years of plate and chain armour now I making a leather set like this, but with metal helmet. Is good to Remember that, larp is not only campal battle, but scouting, running in the wild and other activicties where heavy armour is not good.

[@doomslayer7719]

Comfy warkit is important. The single largest issue is however as you noted not just fit, form, finish, and ease of use within said equipment. Plate armor and the like is mostly a lost art, as no matter how well made most armor is, fit and getting it to not bind nor be worn wrong or ride into a part of the body is key.

[@Veklim]

I noticed the same thing a few years back doing LARP. Luckily for me, I'm left handed so my friend and I ended up sharing his heavy armour, I got the left pauldron and vambrace, he kept the right , we each had a shield and we fought side by side all event. Crazy effective and an absolute godsend when the heat got up in the midday sun. We looked a bit odd with our asymmetric look on top and we got a few chuckles from people but they stopped laughing after the first big battle. Historically speaking I don't think it's a practical or safe decision, but as far as LARP context goes, it's a big baller move for sure.

[@wavetactics13]

Funny enough, this is almost the same kit I came up with for an orc character in a story I've been thinking of writing. Kind of had the same rationale too: an emphasis on large shields over armor in a warm climate, armoring the vulnerable areas the shield doesn't cover rather than the entire torso, and prizing mobility over protection. Though my charater has a helm, greaves, and the one paldron is on the shield arm.

[@xoawolf]

Been watchin more of your content recently, enjoyin it, subbed

[@LivingAnachronism]

Thank you and welcome X0A

[@AmyRhubarb]

YES! Did a lot of looking into the ruana and great kilt before attending a celtic faire a few months ago. I found both very interesting, and enjoyed wearing my traditional ruana to the event. We had stormy weather that early March day (fine Scottish weather they said! LOL Even a tornado warning - in California!!), but it wasn't very cold and with all my layers I didn't need to pull it up to wear as a cloak, but tucked the excess into my belt, showed off my pleats in the back, and got many many compliments throughout the day. I love the options of cloak, sling sort of bag, and pocket options you can have with the ruana, and even more so with a great kilt. I'd love to see your video on it!

[@IrocZIV]

"It never got me killed" Seems like a good reply for about anything :P

[@dogmaticpyrrhonist543]

This is essentially the hoplite solution. Helm, greaves, shield. Basically just armouring things the shield doesn't cover. If we ignore the helm issues, which are really independent of the rest. I too hate all head gear, so I feel you. A helm though covers that one piece of you which HAS to protrude above the shield AND is critical to survival.

[@LobotomyPatient14]

This kit is the perfect example of function over form.

[@hendrikm9569]

More cloak videos are always appreciated :D

[@Minorsurgeryhurt]

As someone who's grandmother was very VERY Scottish. yes I would love to see you try on a great kilt, and hear your thoughts on it. Great video as always. I agree with your thoughts about shields as well, the first and best armor available is always a shield. but I think part of the practicality vs historical concerns of the armor on your torso is how deadly a strike is in LARP vs in real life. almost no one will die immediately from a cut on a limb unless it was severed entirely while strikes to the inner thighs, torso, neck and head are all likely to be imminently fatal. due to the speed and abstraction of larp weapons and damage you must armor yourself for the reality of the combat you face. I think there is never any shame in equipping yourself for the foes your face and if the abide by rules such as in tournaments or larps asymmetry is often warranted. think of medieval tournaments while jousting armor is fully encompassing it is designed around the rules of the game and is both asymmetrical and widely impractical for battlefield combat. Leather armor and metal Breastplates are shockingly hotter than a coat of mail, mail is like wearing a radiator on your body and cools gambesons off especially if there is a breeze if you find yourself getting hot in armor but want to still be "tanky" chainmail is at least my go-to.