Which Human Nation Is The Most Powerful in the Warhammer World? | Warhammer Fantasy

[@TemplinInstitute]

The real answer is: whichever one we're playing as. Join us on Twitch as we'll be streaming a whole lot of Total War: Warhammer III over the next few months! www.twitch.tv/templininstitute

[@mrnobody-unowen]

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

[@hamishsewell5990]

Great stuff! A similar vid on the non-human nations in near future?

[@redtheroblox8787]

You know I think you have a fetish for human like there are amazing and beautiful things out there to see curious about but why based like humans like myself and you?

[@ondrastonis2944]

Can you please talk about snakeman of khuresh

[@jameswinter3832]

Makin a lot of assumptions about my competence their buddy.

[@rexlumontad5644]

"Three things that make the Empire great! Faith, Steel and Gunpowder!" - Magnus the Pious

[@thiendo1260]

Sprinkle little bit of wizards that can use wrap power and an actual living God that revive dead soldier and turn them into medieval equivalent of space marines

[@jacksonbowns1087]

@@thiendo1260 Woah, woah, woah, slow down, that last part is getting into Age of Sigmar territory, and that is still a controversial subject for WHF fans to this day (on account of it killing their game off).

[@Prophetofthe8thLegion]

To quote a famous apothecary “And a loaded bolter never hurt!”

[@jasonnorris3292]

@@Prophetofthe8thLegion I must know the name of this apothecary

[@NguyenQuang-tm3ou]

@@thiendo1260 this is not age of sigmar

[@GaldirEonai]

The Empire is most notable for being the only genuinely forward-looking human nation. Everybody else is some flavor of conservative, but the Empire is all about trying out new stuff. Sure, some of the new stuff they try out goes horribly wrong, but they never let that slow them down. It's hands-down the most _dynamic_ society on the planet.

[@sev1120]

They traded with dwarfs for gunpowder, then figured out how to use it in a way the dwarfs never realized. 90% of imperial artillery isn't the final design, it's a field test

[@grizzlyowlbear3538]

Unlike some other king-worshipping human empire mostly ruled by a council with a similar name...

[@peterkroger7112]

The search for news things makes the people of the Empire especially vulnarable to the temptation of Chos.

[@rexlumontad5644]

@@peterkroger7112 Yet they still stand strong

[@RobRIPDG]

@@peterkroger7112 haha "im doing my own research" *grows tentacles "Ffs"

[@purpledevilr7463]

It’s hard to find Warhammer Fantasy lore videos because 40K is all that turns up when you search for stuff. I’m enjoying this series of videos.

[@GUTZ420]

warhammer fantasy is tha real shit bro

[@tuskam]

I recommend Book of Choyer

[@ZackAttack005]

@@tuskam I was thinking of the same channel, they make very good and immersive videos.

[@martinsokute9882]

40k is wild tho, the emperor of man sucked me in

[@purpledevilr7463]

@@martinsokute9882 it’s wild but sometimes you just want a physically smaller setting. It’s much better for imaginary self-insertion into major stories.

[@Ragas12]

Something I think needs to be considered with Bretonnia is that there's very strong cultural cohesion within its lands because of the worship of the Lady and reverence for the Grail Knights and Grail Damsels who serve her. It's actually part of the reason feudalism has lasted as long as it has in Bretonnia, because every king is a Grail Knight chosen from among the number of Grail Knights who are currently alive. That means they're divinely chosen and have to fulfill a number of trials to exemplify the virtues Bretonnia holds dear. This has been both part of Bretonnia's strength and also a weakness. Yes, local lords can still be petty and corrupt and this causes problems. There's a reason why the Herrimaults exist doing the whole Robin Hood thing. But pretty much every Bretonnian king and many of the dukes are genuinely good people. The conflict in Bretonnia comes from the fact that despite being good rulers they can't be everywhere to deal with issues that arise. But this is where the Grail Knights often come in, because it's not unheard of for one to kick the door in when a local lord is abusing power. This helps a lot with social cohesion because all those fairy tales about a hero riding up to help happen with more frequency within Bretonnia. As well, Grail Knights are powerhouses on the battlefield. When they group up they're quite possibly the best cavalry in the world and can have an outsized influence on a battle because they can punch way above their weight class thanks to the blessings they've earned through their trials. Individual Grail Knights have gone toe to toe with greater daemons before and come out on top, which says a lot for their potency. Grail Damsels are powerful sorceresses who can keep an army alive. They're easily as effective as Imperial mages, often even more so, though they're rarer than Grail Knights. Their presence can help rally an army on the verge of routing and supply the support needed to turn defeat into victory. Bretonnia's navy is also top notch, because though they don't have much in the way of artillery when armies clash because of a distaste for gunpowder that's not really an issue on water. Ocean warfare is considered a different game culturally speaking, something less important for honorable knights to concern themselves with. As a consequence it's a place where peasants can have a great deal of upward social mobility and gunpowder weapons are used in considerable numbers, allowing for Bretonnia to have a powerful presence on the Sea of Chaos and the Great Ocean. This isn't to say I believe their government is better than the Empire's, or that they have as much soft power, but I think they're a bit closer to Cathay and Kislev in that they have a powerful patron helping to guide them who supplies a philosophy that really helps keep their people aligned with their societal values. This makes Bretonnia a remarkably strong and stable nation, one every power in the Old World considers courting and fears angering needlessly.

[@sheepbeeps3369]

If we look at it less in material terms and more in magical terms. Brittonia's using a system similar to how the elves created their gods. Grail Knights are demi-gods who can go toe to toe with greater demons on the tabletop and in lore (albiet not in Total War but that's it's own bag of fish.) They can do that because all of the material, and yes, magical, resources of the kingdom go into them, and the culture that creates them. It's locked into the fudal system because if it began to drift away from that legendary arthurian style the magic that lets it spit out demon slaying champions would stop working. Hence britonia's sort of been in a catch 22, which was never explored in lore. If they industrialize, modernize, or allow the commoners to read and write. The holy magical mojo will stop working and probably become more like sigmar's warrior priests. Which while impressive, leaves the country vulnerable for decades if not centuries, while they go through the shift. And that's if you had some sort of all powerful king that could make the change like you do in later warhammer total war...

[@thechazz3230]

@@sheepbeeps3369 Pre 6th Ed non-scumbag Brettonia had even more cultural cohesion where its commoners weren't treated like dirt and it was far more accepting of change as long as it wasn't firearms. It's ability to grow wasn't nearly as hampered as the shitty knockoff version of Brettonia we've been stuck with since 6th Ed

[@OdmupP37]

I literally just came here to write this, Grail Knights are literal superhumans and apart from that the constant questing and testing of their mettle also keeps their martial prowess up much like the reasoning behind Kislevs military rating.

[@AeneasGemini]

Cultural cohesion is really not the term you're looking for. The peasants have a completely different system of worship, and they make up the bulk of the armies. If anything there's a huge cultural disconnect between the nobility and the peasantry because most of the latter don't worship the lady. "best cavalry in the world" is quite a bold statement. To begin with, you should specify heavy cavalry, since their light cavalry is a joke, any other light cavalry in the world could run rings around them. In terms of heavy cavalry, I'd agree that they're strong contenders, but pound for pound there are cavalry units that are superior. I'd stack blood knights (and *maybe* Dragon Princes) against any standard/elite Cavalry units of Bretonnia, and the gap only widens once we include monstrous mounted units like Demigryph knights. Regardless even Grail Knights can't match Blood Knights toe to toe. That being said, I would concur that (as a whole) they have the best heavy cavalry, if for no other reason that they have the largest force of deeply competent heavy cavalry.

[@xnikolasbs2230]

@@AeneasGemini Bretonnia has by far the best cavarly in the Old world and the most numerous and this is regarded as fact by the Empire and its officials. Bret knights are very skilled, ride warhorses that make Imperial ones look like old nags and come in huge numbers, sometimes in the tens of thousands. Kurt Helborg outright states that bretonnian knight charges are feared across the old world. Grail knights have defeated multiple blood knights at once in the lore while the opposite has never happened in any book or novel. A single blood or grail knight would eat half a regiment of demigryph knights for breakfast. We are talking about knights that consider it normal to take on regiments of minotaurs by themselves.

[@RyuPlaneswalker]

I would like to Suggest a Fifth Option. The Empire of "Man" where "Man" is defined as 3 Skaven in a Trenchcoat.

[@spamquisition4046]

To be fair, if we count the Under Empire as part of the Empire of Man, the rats probably outnumber the humans significantly. Skavenblight counts as Estalia/Tilea tho so maybe that'll help the margins.

[@LinkLegend0]

I dont trust like that.

[@RyuPlaneswalker]

@@spamquisition4046 So what you are saying is..that Karl Franz is really 3 Skaven standing on Top of Each other?

[@spamquisition4046]

@@RyuPlaneswalker Karl Franz is a rat that's for sure, at least that's what Boris Todbringer said to me last time we met.

[@Arthur_Revan]

What, don't be ridiculous! Giant talking rats, we dismissed that theory.

[@ravager2-636]

If games taught me anything, any faction that features a skull over their units normally means they’re the strongest.. So clearly the Empire of Man is superior.. >;)

[@daswordofgork9823]

@Sam Sully you’re thinking 40k. There are some good guy factions in fantasy. Yes there is corruption and darker sides to them but they are not over all evil 50/50.

[@garlonschuman1014]

@@daswordofgork9823 are you trying to imply the imperium is evil? That’s heretical!

[@neilz.]

@@daswordofgork9823 watch what you say. The inquisition is always listening.

[@yumasdikalianputra7415]

The empire clearlly the winner, not just it was more advanced, but also more allies, more tolerent over new thinking, like gunpowder weaponry, not like bretonnia still thinking the old way, not to mention that the empire also geograficlly well defended, surrounded by many mountains, making a very well defensive position. And like templin institute said, when all elector count band together, the empire virtually near undefeated and could be the main nation against the forces of chaos, if they embrace Kislev's style of government.

[@daswordofgork9823]

@@yumasdikalianputra7415 in the lore, Bretonnia kept kicking their asses somehow.

[@bubbasbigblast8563]

The thing about the Empire is that it's wildly inconsistent: its military can be nearly the best in the world, or it can be easily brushed aside by goblins. It's culture and politics can be positive, like under Karl Franz, or negative, like when a Witch Hunter tries to burn down a forest full of Wood Elves to stop the demon trees. Its geography also has its own problems, prone as it is to being filled with Beastmen in the forests and Orks in the mountains. At its best, fighting against the Empire is an absolute nightmare: Ogres, Dwarves, Mages, Cannons, Knights, State Troops, and mercenaries from every corner of the planet, all commanded by experienced leaders on griffons. At it's worst, well...see how the Skaven Wars started. Brettonia, Cathay, and Kislev all suffer similar problems, to an extent, but they have much more stable leadership in general, because it's much harder for people who are blatantly corrupt to rise to something more than the leader of a county.

[@soldiersPL]

To be more fair to the Empire, they are basically a form of elective monarchy and all of that is pretty standard for them to have ups and downs depending on what's been going on recently (hard times create hardy men, etc etc.). On other hand, Bretonnia and Kislev are both hereditary monarchies, compared to electives, they tend to have MUCH higher ups and downs, just look at Kislev, practically completely dissolving in to civil and religious war on Boris's death, or fact that King of Bretonnia HAS to be a Grail Knight, potentially leading to period of massive interregnum. So if we are talking about current Warhammer TW timeline, you probably have best that all nations can offer leadership wise on start, Empire is mess of squabbling princedoms that Karl can whip in to line by threat of Chaos, Leon in Bretonnia has enough sway and is considered honourable enough that his people actually listen to him, and Katarina is both powerful mage in her own right and terrifying enough to keep various factions from tearing themselves apart

[@emilianomerendino3311]

@@soldiersPL Yeah, their reasons for being inconsistant are far better than the Imperium

[@joes5010]

@@soldiersPL Bretonnia wont have periods of Interregnum as the king is chosen from the original royal line from Giles le Breton or from any of the Ducal lines chosen by the 12 dukes. There system is a hereditary monarchy with a redundancy system built and as every ruler is a grail knight that guarantees at least character and combat ability. For Bretonnian leadership to fail all eligible families have to fail to produce a grail knight simultaneously and in a society where a noble mans entire purpose is to be a grail knight that will be quite unlikely.

[@tlf7674]

Except that time Kislev was ruled by a vampire :P

[@xnikolasbs2230]

@@joes5010 The Royarch is chosen by a conclave of every grail knight who manages to attend the election. The royal line is favoured but if no suitable prince exists the GKs will just elect one of their number.

[@awesomehpt8938]

I’d disagree with how powerful the Tsar or Tsarina of Kislev is. While in theory they have absolute power over all in Kislev. In practice many within the kingdom, such as those who live on the open steppe or in troll country quite rarely have anything to do with the central government in the city of Kislev. Not to mention the rise of a rival faction in the great Orthodoxy.

[@krystalcz9251]

Not true I dare to say this comment is! While it may seem to be the case with Kislev in the past, the new Kislev with Tzarina Katarin is different and the land itself has the connection to the Tzarina+she has her Tzar atamans which govern the provinces-true they have some degree of autonomy-but their orders, armies, aid and money comes from the Tzarina, who has some sort of council/court for disscusing matters of importance with them-due to the army being loyal to Katarin and the ,,church" (aside from the fanatics-like Kostaltyn) too, the ataman cannot really take control even if he wanted too-thus I would say that modern Kislev with Tzarina Katarin in charge has complete authority and absolute power in the country. And then there is the matter of Grand Orthodoxy-it is true they are the rival faction-but they don't own any of the major cities(Praag, Kislev, Erengard) or other important places-in fact they are on the borders with Chaos, Skaven and Tzarina Katarin loyal vassals-and they don't even have the full support from within or complete authority above their own Grand Orthodoxy-further more they don't have any support from the population against Katarin, who is well loved by her people, has the support of the noblemen from the west and the Erengard vassal support too and EVEN has the support of some part of the Grand Orthodoxy and other religions too-so I would dare to disagree with ypir reasons and I would even argue that you are entirely wrong in this and that in fact-modern Kislev is the most stable of the four countries in the video.

[@Heisen2420]

Yeah, I feel like he overlooked the cultural rivalry between the Ice Court & the Great Orthodoxy.

[@andarara-c1p]

Kislev used to be more powerful and stronger before the Great War of Chaos. Nowadays Kislev is a bit of a shadow of its former self (not as bad as what Araby was pre-Estalian Invasion compared to now but still).

[@darken2417]

I'd say that Estalia could punch far above its weight since its location seems far safer in this setting and great for trade, it even has colonies. And its the capital of the Myrmidian religion which is extremely tactics focused. Only issue is that its not unified.

[@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547]

Estalia isn't a nation, it's a region with 7 different warring kingdoms.

[@razorflossrazor2937]

You can blame the skaven for that one. The one chance they had was when their sigmar myrmidia reincarnated as a human came a hairs breath from uniting the nation. Unfortunately seeing the threat they assassinated her and the rest is history.

[@zackkilgore528]

It’s literally in a constant bout of civil war though

[@claytonthegrubkiller6430]

@@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547 i think that's what he meant by not being unified Sir Franz

[@Nverdis]

@@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547 _Puts on aviators_ Welcome to Estalia Gentlemen! :)

[@thevoidlookspretty7079]

The Empire of Man: determined to industrialize before Archeon shows up.

[@lettuceman9439]

Literally fielding Airships and beat the chaos dwarfs on a artillery battle.

[@thevoidlookspretty7079]

@@lettuceman9439 Zeppelins flying higher than dragons can breathe.

[@unimportant719]

@@lettuceman9439 the fun thing is that this already happened Total war warhammer II

[@nikolaosrigos8121]

The main problem that the Empire has is that by electing a new emperor they face the problem that the new emperor might focus on his own province problems. Four parts of the empire are gone. Soland and Drakwald got destroyed. Silvania is a rouge state run by vampires. And Marianburg bought its independence.

[@Sigismund]

It isn't as if Solland or Drakwald are ungoverned wastelands though- they were absorbed by their neighbors, whatever they contributed to the Empire is still part of the collective whole

[@ProjectEkerTest33]

I don't think Sylvania really contributed all that much even when it was part of the Empire though, it was pretty shit land. The only real prblem with losing it is that it you now have a major enemy to your south-east threatening more valuable areas like Stirland and Averland.

[@lettuceman9439]

Stirland...hahshahahaha

[@lettuceman9439]

However the electoral system has been more good than bad for the empire as a whole with the surge of chaos's influence on a individual and the archaic nature of having a europe sized nation beset by horrors far stronger and numerous than humanity.

[@ProjectEkerTest33]

@@lettuceman9439 Haha relative to Sylvania it's still more valuable! Plus you get hobbits

[@CT-sf8wd]

A country calling itself 'empire of man' with nobody being able to complain is quite the indicator I'd say

[@pavarottiaardvark3431]

I'd say that Marienburg and Sylvania complain quite a lot.

[@zackkilgore528]

@@pavarottiaardvark3431 Sylvania is a vampire domain with a human serf class, hardly a human nation

[@pavarottiaardvark3431]

@@zackkilgore528 It's literally one of the Elector Provinces of the Empire and the Empire doesn't even rule it.

[@zackkilgore528]

@@pavarottiaardvark3431 yeah go tell that to the Carsteins and while you’re at it tell Gorfang Rotgut that Black Crag is a Dwarven domain.

[@pavarottiaardvark3431]

@@zackkilgore528 that's..... that's my exact point? The claim that the Empire is all powerful is clearly under cut by one of their major historical provinces being undead-ified

[@maxfieldjoyner5244]

I’d personally go with the Empire of Man but Brettonia is a favorite of mine and Kislev and Cathay are also really cool.

[@slowmoe1686]

They're all good. Well, depending on whether the viewer likes or dislikes Brettonia, but other than Feudalistan all the nations are good.

[@retardcorpsman]

Slow Moe Feudalistan lmfao

[@andarara-c1p]

I like human nations in Warhammer in general. They are pretty cool!

[@berthold64]

Gay flag, but I agree. Bretonnia is my favourite. I loved the sthick that a single grail knight can be a turning point of a battle (they kinda do in video games, see generic grail lords and high level paladins)

[@Al3xtheMeh]

I’d say it can change between the Empire and Cathay on any given day. Both are super reliant on the capabilities of its leaders and their strength fluctuates greatly. What I’m curious about is how they’re gonna address the Empire getting outclassed by Kislev and Cathay in game 3.

[@40kanon]

SUMMON THE REWORK UPDATES

[@ImperativeGames]

I think they underestimate problems of EoM's political system. When Kislev/Cathay will have 60 years of bad Tsar/Emperor rule - the nation will be less effective, generals won't be very successful. Some losses when attacked. When EoM will have 60 years of bad Emperor's rule - civil war and therefore complete helplessness before external threats. Destruction of EoM when attacked.

[@shrek4949]

@@ImperativeGames cathay can’t have worse rule because their leaders are immortal

[@AnonD38]

@@shrek4949 well an immortal leader on the one hand is good because they can gain „infinite“ knowledge on how to run the place, but it’s bad because they might just suck at ruling

[@richardkenan2891]

@@shrek4949 Yeah, but he takes naps longer than entire human lifespans. When he's paying attention, he's great. The rest of the time, his existence is an obstacle to Cathay's ability to act as a united whole, because nobody else can ever become Emperor and take over. At least when the Empire of Man has a civil war, you can figure that sooner or later somebody is going to win it, and given that they won, they're probably going to be pretty good at both war and politics. In Cathay, you know *NOBODY* is going to win it, they'll just keep on squabbling until the Emperor decides to step in and be Emperor again.

[@Heisen2420]

The ultimate question; Faith, Steel, and Gunpowder? Or Faith, Steel, and Horses? Or Bears, Ice, Steel, and Gunpowder? Or Dragons, Steel, and Gunpowder?

[@InquisitorThomas]

I think it should be Dragons, Steel, and Gunpowder because Cathay doesn’t have a lot of faith, but it has a lot of Gunpowder.

[@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547]

@@InquisitorThomas it's gunpowder is pretty nonsensical tbh.

[@Heisen2420]

@@InquisitorThomas Hmm, good point.

[@rexlumontad5644]

Yes

[@yvonnelapointe847]

Gunpowder is cathay's faith

[@mathinvitti7954]

I have to disagree with the idea that Cathay is middling in economy there are documented accounts of trade caravans being massively successful to the point that even the High elves regularly send trading fleets to Cathay and middle men like Gressus Gold-tooth get shockingly rich simply by taxing traders going overland to get to Cathay and back. They aren’t as economically advanced as the empire but they are easily more prosperous.

[@arandomcomment7208]

True but only one in ten caravan makes it their and back, but they also are rich enough to rise to nobility after words so your point still stands

[@valloarukaevu2846]

That doesn't really say anything about their economy though, just about the distance and danger the traders have to cross in order to make the journey. The less goods make it through the smaller the supply is and if the demand is high for those rare luxury goods then the price skyrockets. The point made in the video was that while Cathay is wildly dominant in population they don't seem to have the ability to leverage that population for increased output like the empire is able to with its early industrial revolution production methods. The empire is simply able to produce more per person because they are constantly developing while Cathay stagnated long ago.

[@griffincrump5077]

@@valloarukaevu2846 and yet despite that Cathay produces more wealth, because they can afford to lose most of their caravans. Their economy is strong enough that even with the incredibly inefficient means of trade they still remain robust in prosperity

[@edwardzhou9423]

Looking at the real word version of this, China nearly bankrupted industrial britian due to how much bigger its GDP and trade position was before the opiuim wars. The empire its just the HRE, i really don't think its even a fraction the total GDP of Cathay. I mean international trade is only a true mechanic of the highelves and cathay, that should say something about the sizes of these ecos

[@kennylam9895]

@@edwardzhou9423 thats during imperial times, where Great Britain was the dominant power. if we are basing it on real history the holy roman empire came to be around 9th-19th century so China at the same time would be under the Tang and Yuan dynasty. Under the Tang dynasty the silk road was greatly expanded and the mongols in the Yuan dynasty establish a pax Mongolia system in all of the Eurasia. The wealth that china experienced that time launched it to its golden age. If we truly comparing the wealth of the HRE vs what Tang or Yuan china had there was no competition. In warhammer fantasy I like your point that he didn't really take an account of Cathay navy and international trade with the High elves although it does seem that Cathay lack the tribute system ( soft power) that real historic china had.

[@lamnaa]

Bit of a strange take that Cathay gets bumped down in it's military ranking because it built the most massive fortification in history.

[@thisisaname5589]

On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, walls don't make strong armies. Strong geography, not strong armies.

[@trantrungnam612]

@@thisisaname5589 though you do need strong army to hold these walls from endless excursions.

[@thisisaname5589]

@@trantrungnam612 if anything, massive walls like that let you get away with having a weaker army. Cathay's definitely not a slouch in the army department, but they did lose to Grimgor in the lore.

[@hopelessearth]

France built some sweet fortifications just before getting crushed.

[@sev1120]

@@thisisaname5589 Let's not forget that the great bastion was made by one guy who then immediately went "alright, you guys handle it" without giving them any instructions whatsoever

[@oomguy9423]

I think it would have been better to call the last category influence as opposed to culture.

[@tomh2572]

I was thinking the same thing, but I was thinking "Cultural Projection". Influence is a more concise way of saying that. Having it be "Culture" makes it seem like Templin are calling Cathayan culture inferior, which, given the fact that many of the nations in Warhammer fantasy are analogous to real human nations, possibly has some unintentional racist undertones. I know they said that that's not what they meant, but if you have to clarify what you mean by something, you're probably doing it wrong in the first place.

[@charlesc.9012]

Cathay is actually probably so powerful that its neighbors learn from her, and make the pilgrimage to do so. They are actually so dominant that neighbouring cultures emulate them of their own volition. Korea, Vietnam and Japan in our world were actually so deeply influenced that they built pagodas, wrote Kanji and pronounced words with Han-on. They retain the ancient pronunciations even today, after most branches of Chinese moved on.

[@oomguy9423]

@SailorMoon least racist sailor moon fan

[@leogunnemarsson4178]

I think Bretonnia deserves a 'Middling' in politics. Yes it's an antiquated system as base but one with very clear advantages over our real-world counterparts. The requirement of 'Grail knighthood' for kings ensures a degree of competency other feudal systems could not guarantee and the Fay Enchantress being able to override the kings (or dukes) orders and command the grailknights (as have happened historically) adds another safeguard against bad leadership and internal strife. It's certainly still possible but it's a lot better than real-life feudal socities.

[@sirtrystepain2292]

Another very good video. I agree with most of the points that have been cited, except for one, the "low" in Politics for Bretonnians. Everything said in the video is true. They are feudal who, compared to others, have a rather archaic political system. But there is one point that changes the game. In the kingdom of Bretonnia, the highest positions (all dukes, the king and others) are held by grail knights. This is a position which cannot be inherited and which must be earned in the eyes of the Lady. Thus, there is a certain assurance that only capable men who have proven themselves by their bravery and their ability to lead men will attain the highest responsibilities. The religious dimension of the Grail Knights also ensures that there is a certain unity between Church and State within the Bretonnian territory since the rulers have been blessed by the main goddess of the country to fulfill their function. Where dissention may arise in nations like the Empire between the cult of Ulric, that of Sigmar, and between these cults and the Electors Counts.

[@arandomcomment7208]

Strange women in ponds distibuting swords is no basis for a system of government

[@sirtrystepain2292]

@@arandomcomment7208 Lazy lizard on a rock not either but Cathay seems okay with it. As same as Kislev seems to have good time with their Disney’s Elsa queen. Turn every aspect of a universe into a joke don’t help to understand it. On this case, the Lady of the Lake has in fact huge power and those who take a drop of the grail has a fraction of it. That's not questionnable, as same as the hard path needed to drink a drop of the grail and the stability granted by unity between the fact that heads of the States are litteral living saints of the main and overinfluenced Church of the country.

[@queekheadtaker7327]

Keep in mind that unlike Kislev, Cathay has never been truly defeated even the monkey king affair was more of a humiliation then the Great War against chaos. Also while this applies to all the faction to an extent it does depend on the province central Cathay is the most peaceful place in the Warhammer world while northern Cathay is basically Cadia.

[@andarara-c1p]

I think inner Ulthuan is the most peaceful place in the world.

[@queekheadtaker7327]

@@andarara-c1p canonically demons occasionally burst out of the vortex also the sea keeps eating the city’s also theirs a dark elf invasion, every other century which in high elf terms is equivalent to a decade. Still in the top ten

[@andarara-c1p]

@@queekheadtaker7327 Yes, but at the same time, Ulthuan is the only safe place from your vermin, my dear Queek. Not even central Cathay is safe from that. And Skaven are a notorious threat I´d say.

[@queekheadtaker7327]

@@andarara-c1p a fairly moot point since the skaven invented nukes and rockets, also floating castles do wonders for organising defences against skaven

[@andarara-c1p]

@@queekheadtaker7327 I still think south Ulthuan is safer than central Cathay. Central Cathay it´s safe just as Altdorf can be safe because geographically it has the threats apparently far, but not really.

[@DasUnbekannte]

WF setting basically depends on land productivity, where innovation is limited (As you said the Empire is the only faction that may be on the verge of experiencing industrialization). If Cathay has been able to support the largest amount of population it then implies it is due to the fact that it has the best geographical endowments too.

[@kenshy10]

Everyone laughs at the empire until the elector counts start working together. Then they start back peddling REAL HARD.

[@OriginalRAB]

The trick is getting those duplicitous bastards to work for a single goal!

[@kenshy10]

@@OriginalRAB maybe we should elect a cat herder as the next emperor? I could see him being about as successful as Frans.

[@theenderdestruction2362]

If the entire empire just stops infighting out of nowhere, everyone is now checking their personal relationships with it and are hoping its on its good side cause if not then all of a sudden its a fucking end game event and you got a race of murder monkeys led by a super powered murder monkey welding a hammer and everyone else has who knows what barging in through your door, and the walls, and the cieling, and the ground, and the air somehow hell it would cause the dragon emperor to get off his damn thrown alongside his wife and he would be quickly trying to make sure that grand cathay is in good relation with the empire

[@xkxkjohn]

Cathay has a disadvantage in culture though, cause of missing lore. We know it trades with high elves, it can have trading ties in Lustria and we don’t know anything about it’s relationship with Ind, Nippon and other nations in that region. With time I think Cathay will rise in the culture category

[@jacke8503]

Only the Empire have a trading station and an ambassador to the High elves. So they seam to be the only humans with that strong of a culture and power according to the high elves.

[@xkxkjohn]

@@jacke8503 I have to admit that I’m not sure where I read/heard it, but I’m sure that Cathay trades with the high elves, or the high elves trade with Cathay. Also I agree that the Empire will be number one in culture. It’s the poster boy for warhammer. I’m just saying that I think with new lore that’s coming, Cathay will rise in the rankings. But thanks for the new information, genuinely didn’t know that and I love that something as a high representative of the empire to the high elves exists and I wanna know everything about that character :D

[@jacke8503]

@@xkxkjohn The High elves have colonies that trade with Cathay. So they don't need to go all the way to Ultwan. The colonies are one to the south, three south west and one south east of Cathay. I only know that the ambassador is named. Don´t know if their is any more lore on him. But in Warhammer one can make one own lore o an extent.

[@thejackinati2759]

It wouldn't surprise me if the reason why Cathay doesn't have an embassy on Ultuan might have more to do with the Cathayan side. As I recall, the Cathayan's view Dragon riding with contempt. Ultuan might as well be Dragon-riding central! And all it'll take is for Imrik to open his mouth once before the politcal shitstorm is conjured out of thin air. Because we all know he's gonna want to ride them Dragons! :P

[@hoked2194]

@@thejackinati2759 I'm still not over the fact that a guy called "Pumhart" decapitated a dragon with a cannon. Can't take Cathay seriously when a shit like this happens lmao.

[@Aspiringamoeba1997]

I think the Empire should be dominant in economics, and cathay on high. Mass produced crossbows and complicated skyjunks are good signs of a industrial capacity. In real-life China, for example, standardized production techniques have been around for nigh millenia, and I suspect the same is true of cathay.

[@lettuceman9439]

I guess so i mean it depends on really since the Empire might not have impressive warmachines save for the steam tank (Also the fluff reason why you cant make a panzer division) is that the Empire have a near industrial economy while cathay doesnt. Junks and powerful gunpowder are great but on the larger picture a functioning industrial factory and a established center of learning is far better.

[@magnusmaximus1415]

@@lettuceman9439 but from what we see, at the contrary, cathay has a functional industrial factory, and at least a center of learning, cannon, jezzail and sky junk are not the thing you create in a forge by hazard, those thing need knowlege to be created, remember that the empire attain his level of industrialisation thanks to the dwarf who give them their technologie, of gunpowder by example. cathay has discover those technologie alone from what we know, and there are the only one with the dwarf who can fly artificially (maybe with the skaven, depend if take in count the rocket in the canon), the empire of man are unable to produce more steam tank, (there supposed to have 8 steam tank in the lore) when cathay can produce many sky junk as they wish. the problem that i have with this ranking is that we have not enought information about the ability of cathay, cathay is supoosed to be able to craft by example stone dog who are a much more little version of the terracota sentinel. the only one able to do that was the ancient nehekara, and you have cathay who can do that even nowdays.

[@lettuceman9439]

@@magnusmaximus1415 Cathay canonically I.e CA fluff still make those by hand while the empire use machines and mechanized factories for it.. Cathayan Magic is heavily monopolized by the dragons and doesn't have any institution that activity promote upper mobility like the empire

[@magnusmaximus1415]

@@lettuceman9439 can you tell me where you see that the empire use machine and mechanized factory ? From what i remember from the gotrek and felix serie, the cannon foundry use the method from the renaissance period and not the industrial period. So i'm curious. No, the magic is not monopolized by the dragon, if it was the case, in the army only your dragon lord can use magic and at least shugengan, or in cathay there are astromancer and alchemist who use magic, so it's false. The problem that cathay has no institution is that we have not enought information for that, we only know from the army roster and that all, but the inspiration came from china, and in china we have the imperial exam that help to promote people to a highter position, so is not so far fetched to think the same thing exist in cathay, represented by the lord magistrate, who is a human. another thing, that plead that cathay possess institution that help to promote people is the history of shi hong, once a peasant living in Nan-Gau, the Artificer Guild in Nan-Gau thought he showed promise and took him in, and became later one master of the guild.

[@lettuceman9439]

@@magnusmaximus1415 yeah you're right 8th ED is vastly different.. and more nobledark. I guess I'll die on a hill since CA And Gw made Cathay a bit to powerful if not retconning the Empire original geopolitical status q

[@kodan7879]

They all have pros and cons: Empire - Most technologically advanced, excellent relatiotions with Dwarfs, Elves, and human nations in general. / disjointed, and ever-bickering Cathay - Dragons, good gunpowder and magic infused warriors, construct. / too big to fully mobilize and under constant chaos attacks. isolated from human allies. Bretonnia - Super human knights. Super wealthy lands / majority of the population is opressed and basically useless in a war. Kislev - Hardened by millenia of struggle to survive and war. Small area makes it easy to rally to a flag. Most united of the 4 nations (which is ironic considering the scenario in WH III ) / CHAOS

[@NicolasFister]

I loved this! It's great to understand the differences between each of the human nations, especially in light of new lore being created just for them! One of the problems I considered when they announced Grand Cathay and how it would function in the lore, was how it would measure up to the Empire and the other human nations. I'm pleased to say that you broke it down rather well! One thing I will note though, is that the Grail Knights of Brettonia are rather crazy in terms of individual power thanks to The Blessing of The Lady. True, that doesn't measure much when compared to a Cathayan Dragon or even a Hellblaster Volleygun, but they're pretty elite!

[@StrikaAmaru]

8:55 This was the snagging nail I was waiting since I've read the video title; yes, Kislev's army is the best, but it's also occupied. It's an army that can't be brought to bear in a hypothetical inter-human conflict -- if they do, they'll immediately get rekt by the usual enemies that they already have.

[@bloodbornduck9536]

One thing I think deserves mention about Bretonnia in the political category is that the Royarch of the nation is always a Grail knight. A divinely chosen, incorruptible and morally good warrior king with an extended lifespan. They are also an absolute monarch like Kislev's Tzar or Cathay's Dragon Emperor. Now whether or not one of the blessings of the Lady to the Royarch is also an innate skill at statecraft is up for debate, but I think if Kislev can be afforded a higher rank due the apparent influence of the land then I think Bretonnia should get the same treatment.

[@mattmalloy8599]

also the Bretonnian King has more absolutle power than the Tsar imo. if the king calls everyone answers, and only the Fey Enchantress can over rule him..so basically a Divine being, is the only one who can say no

[@Cirex9000]

That's a complicated question. Each has different strengths and weaknesses. The Empire has large territory, large population, nagic, and is undergoing an industrial revolution, on top of their ancestral Alliance with the Dwarfs. The provinces are also divided between political and religious differences to the point that Karl Franz' biggest achievement is that he can get the Electors to cooperate most of the time. While not as large as the Empire, Bretonnia is more unified, due to a combination of the supremacy of the Lady's Cult, and the cultural domination of knighthood and chivalry. On average, I'd say your average Bretonnian knight is the better warrior than his peers from the other nations. Their magic is limited to Damsels however, and their infantry is limited to poor peasant levies. On top of that they reject modern advances in weapons technology. Kislev is probably the most battle hardened of the Old World nations, due to the constant Chaos attacks, and it takes a strong people to overcome all the setbacks they've faced. However, it's because of those same Chaos attacks that Kislev is rather stuck in a rut, and has only recently been restored to pre-Great War against Chaos levels because of Boris' efforts. Then there's the long-running divide between the Gospodors and Ungols. Additionally, while every nation hs their internal issues, the brewing conflict between the Ice Court and the Great Orthodoxy threatens to destabilize the entire country. At first glance, Cathay appears to be the strongest nation, and for good reason. They've got dragon rulers, powerful magic, the most territory and highest population, as well as advanced war machines. Look past that though, and it's incredibly fragile. When the Emperor and Empress disappeared for a few centuries, he dragon siblings who govern the nation went to war with one another, and the Monkey King took over for a time. With all that in mind, I'd end them like thus: 1) Cathay 2) The Empire 3) Bretonnia 4) Kislev

[@beamrunner0471]

Good list, hit the nail on the head there

[@barbiquearea]

Can't wait for them to release Ind and Araby.

[@patt5085]

Reasonable. Have a nice day

[@airsoft6147]

I'd say that Cathay would still come second to the empire mainly b/c of their leadership. Don't get me wrong, I know that the empire has its problems in this regard, but I'd say it's better than having an emperor who disappears and/or ignores their duties in favor of whatever catches their attention. worst case there is internal strife and civil war as we've seen and at best, the provinces ruled by the dragon's children appear more like their own nations allied with each other who may or may not help the others at their own discretion rather than one whole nation. Again I know that the Empire is guilty of this too, but at least there is usually an empire or other ruler actively attempting to establish or maintain some form of unity.

[@1YCARADOFACAO]

@@airsoft6147 People said Cathay were a bunch of Mary Sues but it's clear that they're rifted from within. The dragon lords have rivalries with eachother and to them humans are like little baby chicks for them to use and abuse, i find Cathay very complex and entertaining because of that

[@notsure1823]

The Military portion seems to ignore that Kislev usually "wins" by surviving because the Empire and Bretonnia beat the Chaos incursion after Kislev has been long overrun and its population surviving by being so spread out and thus getting rid of them to any significant degree is near impossible. This fact over everything else makes Kislev so hard to defeat, not that its Army is undefeatable on the Battlefield. still Middling/High though. Further the Empire itself is also bordering Chaos directly , just not on a land-route, the Barbarians are just a Sea apart and very well known for their skill at sailing and shipbuilding. These "Vikings" strike South almost constantly and in large quantities, several invasion forces were even launched over the Sea of Claws directly. But of course Kislev got the worse position still.

[@sephiroaone-of-nine101]

They play the wall off as a weakness when it's a massive boon not having to fight something that can run through your province and siege your capital

[@andarara-c1p]

Meanwhile Estalia cries in the corner after discovering that it would be the jewel of the world should be unified just like its real life counterpart.

[@Historyfrek4ever]

You guys kind of left out an important category (or two if you take account corruptibility or chaos) namely magic, which all of them employ. Hard part might have been that empire doesn't employ it as openly or as apparently widely as the other three but it has probably most developed and varied understanding of magic. (Based on number of schools they can employ and the fact they learned it from High Elves.)

[@claytonthegrubkiller6430]

Empire has the most controlled use of magic but also have the strongest magic users after the elves and lizardmen

[@serhatkarabeyli9818]

@@claytonthegrubkiller6430 Bro Cathay legit has thunderstorm.bringing dragons. I would say that is more powerful magic

[@claytonthegrubkiller6430]

@@serhatkarabeyli9818 and balthazar can turn you into a golden statue and all your weapons and armor into useless rusty lead, also the empire is more than used to fighting against magic users, hell, the stirlanders kill necromancers on the daily

[@claytonthegrubkiller6430]

@@serhatkarabeyli9818 also both sigmarite and ulrician priests can straight up cancel magic, arch lectors take fireballs to the face and get out unscathed

[@lettuceman9439]

That is religated to their leaders and the Dragons while thr empire can employ and control a higher number with a consistent quality

[@borgCube100]

The Empire for it's technological and military diversity, that and their diplomatic ties. Brettonia for their honour, unparalleled knights and desire to be better. Kislev for their strength and environmental harmony. Cathay for their numbers, trade and military cohesion. Untimely the answer has to go the Empire. Not just because the Empire is more well known. Honestly I think Grand Cathay is second, Kislev 3rd. They have the technology of Grand Cathay. They have the adaptation of Kislev. They have the military might of Brettonia, but better. They have the diplomatic ties and respect of the "Order-tide". They have the magic lores that are only beat by the High Elves and Slaan. They have resistance and resilience of Dwarfs (how many Chaos, Orc and Skaven armies have they beat when even at civil war?). They're the fastest growing faction (baring Skaven). Yeah the other human factions might beat them in certain areas (Kislev for hardiness, Cathay for firepower and Brettonnia in the air and cav) but the Empire brings enough to the field to counter EVERYTHING. Which is why they weren't OP in 8th edition TT, which is why the weren't UP in TT 8th edition. They had their strengths and weaknesses in every match-up. I played High Elves (they'll always be my first and true love) but the Empire were FUN. They were the ultimate balanced faction (ironically High Elves seem to have this distinction as per TWW2). Back to lore - they functioned in the same way. They had Faith. They had Steel. They had Gunpowder. That's what made the Empire great!

[@johanalitalo8331]

It's nice to see lore of fantasy world. Usually when you search warhammer lore, 40K usually comes up. Keep up the good work. 👍

[@kentam6891]

Man I wish GW would’ve expanded more on Araby and Nippon. Oh well at least they gave us a more fleshed out Kislev and Cathay

[@TheOffkilter]

In terms of sheer economic, social, and military might Id definitely have to say Grand Cathay although it being a "human" empire might be in question considering all its rulers are Dragons.

[@thecandlemaker1329]

And Bretonnia is an elf puppet state.

[@TheOffkilter]

@@thecandlemaker1329 lol touche

[@namekman01]

"karl franz seems capable, but theres no guarantee his replacement will be any good" his replacement: literally Sigmar, greatest of mortals, ascended to godhood

[@anvos658]

They guy who led the Empire to defeat, failed to defeat Archeon, got the world destroyed, and had previously got himself trapped in the Vortex for millennia. The point stands. . Let alone for such a discussion End Timesing the world shouldn't count. Even more when you realize just how much it messed and diminished multiple races while giving Norsca and Skaven infinite forces cheats.

[@reidparker1848]

​@@anvos658 Kirbyhammer isn't legitimate lore anyway. Storm of Chaos will always be the true timeline, not that insulting, character-assassinating, bullshit-lore-inventing, retcon-filled, comically grimdark "End Times". Screw Games Workshop. Archaon was defeated at Middenheim and killed at the Brass Keep.

[@reidparker1848]

The setting was discontinued after Storm of Chaos. End Times is a pile of retconned garbage by new writers.

[@BloodwyrmWildheart]

@@reidparker1848 The End Times was nothing more than an excuse for GW to shelve Fantasy, hence why it's nothing but rushed ass-pulls.

[@ValeTheOwl]

Another cultural area where the Empire outshine the others is technology and science. While Cathay does have alchemists and whatnot, their knowledge is mostly concentrated in the hands of restricted groups, and the strong "immobilism" promoted by the Dragon Emperor strongly favors stability over growth. Meanwhile the Empire has a VERY fluid and advancing culture.

[@mr.jayjay2401]

Very interesting video. Would like to see this on the rest of the races.

[@ktanner438]

Any answer besides the Empire has been forsaken by Sigmar

[@bthsr7113]

I do wonder how much modernization is plausible for Cathay and Kislev, and how soon. That would make for a strong shift in the balance of power. Though it is possible that the Empire might in turn learn from their advancements, with the nations driving each other to develop further.

[@blakjackal]

One massively overlooked aspect is the fact that the Empire is basically its own worst enemy. Vulnerable to cults, petty civil wars and just straight-up bureaucratic incompetence, it barely has a hold within its own cities (lol Skaven). Getting a united Empire is a big IF at best. Cathay can summon the full force of its military at the drop of a hat.

[@almightybogza]

The Empire only needs a good leader like Karl Franz. If it gets one, IF it gets one it just smashes any other human nation. I cant see a way cathay would beat Sigmar possessing karl franz like he did before.

[@claytonthegrubkiller6430]

If you're gonna take cathay at their peak than the Empire's peak would be Franz as the emperor, all counts unified under his banner, the Empire would steamroll anything on the planets if they weren't busy fighting each other and everyone else at the same time

[@Алексей545-т6б]

@@almightybogza And Good leaders in Empire are rare as fuck. Usually Empire live in permament civil war state

[@blakjackal]

@@claytonthegrubkiller6430 That's true, but that's what they say about Chaos too. So we have to go by averages. Grand Cathay on an average day vs The Empire on an average day... Strong and united vs strong and fractured/corrupt

[@lettuceman9439]

Its a testsment to the empire being a great humsn power while on a civil war they still repelled a orc waagh, Skavrn invasion,Chaos incursiom and another von carstein battle royale.

[@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547]

Bretonnia definitely has farrrr more people then Kislev. Bretonnia is *far* larger and all of it is very fertile.

[@OriginalRAB]

I think the problem is bretonnia culture, revolving around a romanticised satire of the feudal system, means a lack of innovation and social mobility. As such the lands may be large and fertile but its strictly controlled by Lords so peasant population doesn't really get to expand much. Geographically they should be more numerous but in this fantasy setting I believe Kislev has the larger population.

[@xnikolasbs2230]

@@OriginalRAB the lore outright contradicts you. Kislev in no way is as numerous as bretonnia which has many more cities besides the rich countryside.

[@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547]

@@OriginalRAB no.. Kislev literally only has three large cities and most of its area is a wasteland.

[@OriginalRAB]

cool story but unless you can provide actual population figures from lore your evidence is circumstantial. Not that it really matters.

[@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547]

@@OriginalRAB check out second Ed realm of the ice queen, the main source of Kislev. It states that it's low population is it's main problem. Bretonnia on the other hand j second edition (Warhammer fantasy role-play for both ) is stated to have a high population, but can't use it because it's mostly bound In inefficient rural farms

[@magala9287]

I love the way you are so in tune with the worldbuilding and its details. I admire you for that.

[@devinranaldi1751]

The greatest human nation of all time in Warhammer fantasy was Nehekhara, which at it's height dominated the eastern Old World and even raided the High Elves.

[@sev1120]

And they were ruled by Settra, a guy who could rip someone in half with his bare hands. And he also learned magic. He wasn't naturally gifted in magic, but he was so damn stubborn he FORCED himself to learn magic so the liche priests couldn't hold any power over him. He also made GODS submit to his rule. LITERAL GODS.

[@sovietunion7643]

@@sev1120 settra is so badass he was one of the only people who had a solid ending for the shitshow that was end times lore. everyone else got a pretty badly written ending (or was genuinely forgotten about). settra however, was offered literally everything he could have wanted with no catches by the chaos gods if they served him. i cannot reiterate enough how much that this had NEVER happened before in any capacity due to the chaos gods always asking for a price (usually your soul). settra, after being offered, once again, literally everything he had ever wanted, including that golden body he dreamed of, promptly told the chaos gods that "settra does not serve, settra rules" before walking into the end of the world. fucking badass, and the guy wasn't even magical in anyway, he simply had the fucking wills to not care.

[@KiwiEmpire4640]

9:30 I feel as though it's important to also realize that Kislev's inhospitable terrain also helps

[@ravidroseman]

Wouldn't Under Geography, also include how defensive the Area of their nations are? Considering the bitter Cold and rocky outcrop of Kislev the only way you will able to invade said nation would be that you born there or a sacrifice of Armies worth of lives. Hence why Cathay had to build a Wall/Bastion because they couldn't hold the Chaos armies back because it's far more easier for the Chaos to besige them

[@cameronbreeze6918]

I don't think Kislev's climate does much to deter norse men or daemons attempting to cross the border, and clan moulder will gladly let 2 thirds of its army starve and still outnumber the Kislevites 3 to 1.

[@draconomega]

​​@@cameronbreeze6918Kislev is literally alive tough, lt not only pushes chaos back but protects it's people. Don't believe me? explain ice magic, the unusually friendly fauna like the bears and ice tigers or the fact that somehow the land is able to even produce enough food to sustent half the country. And it's all possible thanks to the gods and spirits of kislev that both reward and humble Kislev most of the time and are, in my opinion, more active than the other gods

[@phigu198]

Some parts of this deserve to be reconsidered, especially as they relate to economy and politics. Somebody else already outlined that Grail Knights are probably the most OP humans around, including undead ones, as long as they dont have plot armor, and that therfore there is always a badass in charge, with the explicit support of the highest religious authority, the goddess herself and all dukes of the Kingdom. Unlike the Empire which suffers civil war much more often and also unlike its real world inspiration has a tendency to elect an Emperor with only half the electorate voting for him (somehow). Bretonnia isn't also any more or less feudal than a land of undying dragons with petty disputes between each other from what we know. Given that history isn't a simple progression or collection of arithmatics in the real world, let alone in a fantasy version of it, calling Feudalism anachronistic is a bold choice. Given that Kislev, Cathay, the High Elves, Dark Elves, Araby, Sylvania, the Tomb Kings and to a large extent the Empire work in a feudal system, Bretonnia in this regard is very much "chronistic". Placing Bretonnia as low is very much unfair, and the Empire is high is difficult to justify. Now economy. Having 8 remaining steam tanks with nobody knowing how they actually work after their inventor died is a far cry from being on the verge of industrial revolution. Having guns and cannons does not mean you are industrialising. Real humans had various types of guns before the spinning jenny was invented. The only thing the most industrous city of the Empire really produces is guns and big guns, neither of which require factories. They probably have something like craft production of the 1500s, given what we saw. So saying that they are close to dominant his too speculative. Even if they were an industrialised place, so what? Kislev can't afford your wares, Bretonnia thinks they are unchivalrous and will reject them and Cathay is too far away for it to be worth the trip to sell them there, so whatever economic power the Empire could get at a strech in the hopes and dreams of its fans, it has no way to actually leverage them in this world.

[@soggycracker5934]

Something you missed with the Empire. The Drakenwald. It is a significant portion of the Empire, but has VERY few people within it.

[@theomnissiah-9120]

It’s actually worse then that the Drakenwald is infested with beastmen

[@soggycracker5934]

@@theomnissiah-9120 And orks

[@BloodwyrmWildheart]

@@soggycracker5934 Orcs*. This is Fantasy, not 40k.

[@soggycracker5934]

@@BloodwyrmWildheart Did I stutter?

[@readingking1421]

Love all the Warhammer Fantasy content being released lately.

[@quinnellene8124]

Almost certainly Cathay, its just so much more unified then any other and has seen centuries of relative peace and prosperity. Add in the immortal incredibly powerful dragons as well as an elite military and you get a faction that is likely the most powerful and unified in the entire warhammer world.

[@Hartsele]

I'd say the forests in the Empire are more of a con than a pro, because of the Beastmen. Rooting them out of the vast woods would take extreme measures and leave the Empire severely diminished. Other than that a terrific weighing of each kingdom's strengths and weaknesses.

[@serkelet2]

"Kislev is the most powerful military because they do the same as Cathay with less men and no Great Bastion!" 10 seconds later: "Kislev also enjoys having allies in the Empire, Dwarfs..." There you have your answer as to how Kislev has survived with less men and no Bastion: ALLIES, the fucking EMPIRE and the DWARFS, while Cathay is largely on their own.

[@williambell3304]

Cathay to me seems to be a nation under huge economic strain. It has a large economy, but almost all of it goes to feeding the machine of constant warfare. It's people likely lead quite harsh lives with little resources left for themselves, despite Cathay's overall prosperity. To say nothing of the toll of not just warfare but accidents as it's mines and foundries struggle to produce ever more. This leads to strife and, at times, open rebellion in Cathay which we see in the game.

[@dazurathefirst8456]

Though this is caused by no fault of their own admittedly. Not discounting your points, just mentioning that they are fighting a losing war of attrition against a foe that can suffer infinite attrition.

[@williambell3304]

@@dazurathefirst8456 Of course the threat of chaos isn't their fault. Nonetheless the situation does affect their nation, their stability and their capabilities. For example, Cathay's ability to PROJECT power is likely far less than its actual military power, owing to their need to maintain that defence.

[@sev1120]

Cathay also leaves little to no room for innovation. Everything must stay in it's place, lest it fall out of harmony, and that brings swift punishment. It's a wonder they aren't limited to throwing rocks

[@williambell3304]

@@sev1120 It does and it doesn't in the lore, that's a the Yin/Yang balance of innovation vs stability. Rival Guilds had a brief sort of "space race" pushing airships to ever greater heights, which was good, until it consumed too many resources, (and included incidents of sabotage and assassination) and the dragons stopped it. One of the dragons is all into experimenting with alchemy and warpstone. His effectiveness is recognized, but his more traditional kin try to prevent him from going TOO extreme.

[@sephiroaone-of-nine101]

That can be side about all nations given they have to feed into war production or get ripped apart by some annoying raiding army or horde

[@EsotericSanity]

Disagree with a lot of it tbh, for instance you can't talk about how better Kislev is because they don't need a wall to fight chaos, and ignore that Cathay has to deal with way more threats by themselves. Cathay can easily be argued to be the highest in almost all these categories.

[@artski09]

Kislev is because they don't need a wall to fight chaos but i'm sure if you offered them one they would accept it

[@sephiroaone-of-nine101]

@@artski09 kislev gets rolled over by invasion after invasion when ever chaos looks their way. Cathay doesn't

[@magnus7153]

I'd say Cathay is the strongest human nation. Why? Aside from the Dragons, here are the reasons: First, they're the first human nation to use magic (maybe together with Kislev). Imperial Colleges are still young. It was Karl Franz's predecessor, Magnus the Pious who instated the mages. Previously, the Empire was very, very distrust with magic. Bretonnia is limited only because they only allow females amongst the mages. They had centuries to master magic to the point that humans can wield their own version of dark and high magic: yin and yang. Second, their philosophy: harmony. Each men and women of Cathayan knows their role in society. They bring harmony to their home, family, environment, society, and most especially, in war. Cathayan army emphasize on discipline, combined arms, magic, anything that they can throw against their enemies Sure, any other human nations can do the same but none can do as much grace and harmonious as the Cathayans. Third, is their economy. I mean, there's a reason why the Old World wants to explore Cathay. They have 'exotic' resources for them to purchase and use. If Ogres weren't in the way, it would have been easier for them to exchange. Last but not the least: they can prove that they can stand on their own. The Humans of the Old World have each other. If Chaos invades Kislev, Empire and Bretonnia can back them up. Cathay? Nope! They are on their own. To the west of them are hungry ogres who occasionally ally with but then, Ogres would raid them. Don't forget that the Chaos Dwarfs are near to them as well! To the south is Ind and Khuresh, both nations battering at Southern Cathay for centuries. To the east are Nippon and Dark Elves. Although it is unknown with Nippon's relation with Cathay, the Dark Elves clearly pose a naval threat. And to the north is obviously Chaos. Cathay is smart for building the Great Bastion on their borders lest they fall. Cathay has no friendly neighbors yet here they stand! Cathay eternal!

[@lettuceman9439]

Ill play as the devil's advocate (Bret Main here) Cathay might have better magic however unlike the empire it doesnt have s proper centralized institution to cultivate magic while empire had 3 different Colleges of magic spread within different Orders with Numerous other Center of learning from the gunnery school in Nuln or the Merchant Academy in Averland. Harmony is also one of cathay's weakness like a double edge sword it does enable stability however it stagnant and has made cathay isolated from the rest of order as the indifference of the Dragons towards its citizenry which lead to many uprisings and Civil wars far more destructive than those that hit the empire. That strict social caste itself had made cathay unable to progress in the rate of the empire. The Empire might not have a impressive warmachines save for the steam tank and that stupid mech horse but on the larger picture the empire has surpassed cathay and the dwarfs on mass productionwith imperial arms, artillery and commodities are produced on industrial factories while was confirmed to undergo a industrial revolution if not only for the End Times. Second the Empire is urbanized unlike cathay who still have a rural demographic. Soft power is something cathay does not have unlike the empire whos influence is felt from the old world to lustria.

[@Tafah_0]

I'm not sure how well Cathay's use of magic is, their casting Lords are those with direct blood ties with Dragons and judging from the Alchemist voice lines in Total Warhammer 3 they seem to be distrusted outcasts. Plus Tzeench's attention towards Cathay would lead to negative reactions to magic users as many of his cultists are wizards. And for the non dragon-blooded there's only two schools of magic, the Astromancers and the Alchemists, while the Empire has eight dedicated colleges that brings in students from all over the old world.

[@URKCEHinoSuu]

*Me before watching the video:* Summon the Elector Counts! We're going to war for the STRONGEST human nation award!! FOR THE EMPIRE!! SIGMAR CALLS US!!! Fun fact: during the End Times, they were among the last, if not THE last nation to fall. Cathay, Kislev and Bret all fell in some manner or the other. Truly a viable candidate for strongest nation. *Me after watching the video:* While I am happy my favorite nation won(happy, religious, Sigmar fanatic background noise), I am also now enlightened by the other human nations. You've truly helped me understand bits and pieces of the lore of the others that I found hard to understand. I can now truly appreciate them in a way I've never before. So thank you, Templin Institute. Never thought I'd learn so much just from a VS video 😄😉

[@alexandrub8786]

Was that really because they were the best or just by happenstance?

[@Алексей545-т6б]

Emm...because Kislev, and Cathay stand first against hordes of chaos, while Empire stroke their dick and done nothing to help them

[@lettuceman9439]

Mainly due to the Auric Bastion, the Empire's Mobilization still in effect after thr storm of chaos and that province didnt break easily. While also warring the vampires and grimgors Waaghhh

[@anvos658]

Games Workshop's propensity to make the narratives of both fantasy and 40k human focused has far more to do with Empire lasting so long. It is utter stupidity everybody aligned with the Empire decided to make their last stand at a human city rather than a dwarf fortress.

[@URKCEHinoSuu]

@@alexandrub8786 in my opinion, it wasn't just by happenstance nor because they were the best, I believe it was simply because the lore for Cathay wasn't as fleshed out as the Empire, Bretonnia or Kislev. During the End Times, in the wiki, you'd normally come across a sentence as such: "And so Indus fell to skaven." "And so Cathay was overrun by beastmen." Ogre kingdoms- "............." So, instead of taking the time to create the lore and add more to it, the easy route of "destroy it" happened instead. Plus, I believe Empire models were selling great at the time. But fantasy, overall was dying(in their opinion), and they had plans for Age of Sigmar, so the End Times was simply a means of doing away with fantasy and leave it for dead.

[@complexemotions338]

I love how Bretonia should have been better, but it's crippled by its own failings, while Kislev should have been lowered, but manages to place third due to its resilience in the face of unfair odds.

[@jackolantern147]

I think that Cathay is the strongest. Not only is it's technology unique ,with living terracotta warriors, balloons that give them command over the sky, and rockets alongside other means of firepower. It is also lead by a family of dragons that regard godly beings like Ursun and Khaine as equals. Although I do like the Empire and Kislev, I think that they would be able to defeat the others should they come to war. It would be like if the Empire was led by Sigmar, Morr, Ulrich and other old ones.

[@dazurathefirst8456]

I would argue against this as the technology of Grand Cathay is unique, against the technology of the Empire, it is frail. Whereas Cathay has power terracotta guardians, the Empire has giant tanks of steam and metal. Where Grand Cathay has flying sky junks that rain death below, the empire has the Luminarks that could take those down in a couple of shots. The Empire, given a couple of decades, will surpass Grand Cathay technologically. Grand Cathay may have rifling, but the empire has the advancement of repeating firearms. Accuracy doesn't mean a lot when you can fire a hail of lead down onto the enemy. Grand Cathay focuses on itself, seeking to retain the balance of what was and keep things as is, the Empire strives for ever greater means to improve itself. Eventually, one would fall in a war. The one with the weakest resolve would fall, as their technology, while different, is roughly equivalent at their current stages. The Empire would likely be the victor in that war, unless that war was within Cathay borders, in which case the empire is truly not suffering much loss.

[@lettuceman9439]

Cathay however is isolated often times in the offset of a economic strain. The Empire has a powerful army though that as numerous nor have the firepower equal to cathay but it has allies and have a definit soft power on The old world while verging on a industrial revolution while there warmachines arent as impressive as cathay they have a production line that staggers cathay raw productivity.

[@DominionSorcerer]

@@dazurathefirst8456 I think you greatly overestimate how common gunpowder weaponry, steam tanks and luminarks are in the lore. The Empire has neither the wealth nor the means to produce either of them in any large scale, whereas Cathay has had blackpowder weapons since before Nehekhara became a land of the dead. Hand-held gunpowder weapons are rare, cannons rarer still, you could count the amount of steam tanks the Empire have in total on your hands after cutting off two fingers, with luminarks not being much more common. The steam tanks are also noted to be unreliable to the point of where they sometimes won't function for the duration of one battle. The Empire has also lost the ability to make more luminarks and steam tanks. The largest amount of cannon fielded in one battle in the entire Old World was a hundred cannons from Nuln and three dwarfen holds, two of them Karak-a-Karak and Zufhbar. For an historical comparison, the Swedes at the Battle of Lützen fielded forty cannon. And that battle was fought one year before the Empire fought the Third Battle of Black Fire Pass.

[@BigMikeMcBastard]

I think they're pretty even. The Empire has some pretty advanced tech we don't see in the game, e.g. Nuln repeating rifles. Its artillery is also pretty op due to dwarfen influence. I think in general state troopers probably give the Empire superior overall infantry as well, as the Empire is quite professional and doesn't field peasant militias but instead has huge, well-trained state troop armies. In particular though is the Colleges of Magic. No other human nation churns out as many, and as diverse, an array of wizards as the Empire. This, again, is thanks to help from the high elves teaching humans advanced magic early in the Empire's history. Cathay fields some powerful spellcasters, but the Empire can muster an army of them which can do basically everything due to their complete control of the (separate) winds of magic. Cathay has better celestial wizards, but every other wind the Empire slaps with relatively speaking. This gives the Empire an edge in terms of naval power too I think -- fighting Empire bright wizards flinging fireballs at your ships is not fun. Economically I think Cathay has a significant advantage though. The Empire's decentralized Holy Roman Empire-esque system of elector counts is a liability.

[@DominionSorcerer]

@@BigMikeMcBastard Yeah, they have some pretty advanced technology we don't see in game and they have very little means to produce it in meaningful amounts. Steam tanks, cannon, rifles, it's all incredibly rare because of how expensive / difficult they are to make. And whether or not the state trooper is well trained or equipped is going to greatly depend on which province they hail from, otherwise they're can more or less be comparable to a peasant militia.

[@DarkApostleNoek]

This was great, and I agree with the choices. Hope the Institue is able to compare the other factions that are alike.

[@barmybarmecide5390]

Brettonia has the best cheese and wine, and therefore is the obvious answer

[@gabriel_tormentaroja5118]

The Empire of Man is my favorite, but for the new lore I said Catai.

[@InquisitorThomas]

I wouldn’t even say new lore, a lot of what we’ve gotten from Cathy is Warhammer 3 isn’t so much a retcon but more of an expansion. We always kinda knew that Cathay was absurdly wealthy, populated, and advanced and some of the best weapons in the Empire Arsenal like the Hellstorm Rocket batteries were inspired by Cathay.

[@the_dropbear4392]

@@InquisitorThomas The hellstrom was inspired by the enginer seeing fireworks from the cathay ambassador. Fireworks already existed in the empire.

[@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547]

@@InquisitorThomas no….no most of the new stuff is straight up complete retcons

[@koujow]

Magic should have been a category too. I think a comparison between their magical disciplines would have been cool

[@BigMikeMcBastard]

The Empire crushes the others in a landslide. The Colleges of Magic were founded with the help of Teclis and other high elves early in the Empire's history. No other human nation has as many, or as versatile, of wizards as the Empire.

[@sev1120]

@@BigMikeMcBastard The colleges were also designed to maximise humanity's strength and weakness in magic. A single human cannot wield more then 1 wind of magic. It's just not possible for them to do so. However, when combined the winds of magic can produce some powerful effects, and their central location shows humanity's greatest strength. Versatility. Sure, one fireball might not do much, but it won't matter of 900 more are coming at you from the bright college's field trip

[@MoaRider]

I understand why you didn't include the other human nations, but I still curious on how they would rank. Personally, I think Araby would be probably the 5th strongest human nation. I could see them being one of the dominate trade/economic powers of the world, plus they must have a great military to be able to hold their own against vampire pirates and the undying legions of Nehekhara warriors. They most likely have competent leadership and efficient government institutions, as well. Also, I hope that Araby, Nippon and Ind get added. Please oh please, CA.

[@TheMonkeystick]

Also, should one take into account ancient Nehekara? The tomb kings were human, and unlike the vampires they aren't corrupted by the taint of Nagash's dark magic (with notable exception of Arkhan the Black and, well, Nagash)

[@pierre-mariecaulliez6285]

Cathayan diplomat : "where are your walls ? How do you repel the Norse Raiders ? Kislevite lord : **points at his men training** -these are our walls..." (Historical reference FTW)

[@hunter5559]

I think it was once said in one of the very old codex's made for 2nd or 3rd edition Warhammer Fantasy that if the Empire could truly unite under a single leader, not just in name but in spirit and governance then it would be strong enough to conquer the entire world

[@EDuarteVillanueva]

Oh yeah, who would win? The nightmarish federation constantly at war with itself, the feudal backwater, the frozen wasteland on the doorstep of chaos or the giant prosperous empire ruled by celestial dragons? How is this even a contest?

[@EDuarteVillanueva]

Also "kislev's army is better than Cathay's because they're always fighting and the wall has made Cathay weak"? Are you kidding me? That makes no goddamn sense! It doesn't matter how hardened your warriors are if there's only a pitiful number of them!

[@alfredtg6762]

I would contest that Cathay only has a middling economy. One of the most referenced bits of lore related to Cathay is the Silk Road, a mercantile route that tenuously connects it to the other nations of men in the world. The value that can be generated from such trade is massive, indicating a level of economic power that Cathay distantly wields. It is also much safer than the Empire, which is inundated with Greenskins, Beastmen and cults aplenty. It's government is much better organized, and it doesn't suffer from messy transfers of power like the Empire does. That's the benefit of being governed by an ancient god-dragon, though I could imagine some downsides to that as well.

[@allancastellon9248]

I think it's a bit foolish to downplay just how overwhelming grail knights actually are for Brettonia militarily. They're capable of destroying a greenskin invasion with just 12 knights hopped up on Lady of the lake bathwater.

[@dragonfell5078]

Strange women living in ponds distributing swords IS a basis for a system of government

[@artski09]

@@dragonfell5078 Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!

[@dragonfell5078]

@@artski09 Grail Knights: Shut up, will you! Shut up!

[@gokbay3057]

@@artski09 Damn right you can if it makes you tank cannonballs.

[@seanrea550]

I would add a diplomacy category specifically. How capable are they at drawing others into a fight on their side.

[@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547]

Tbh. It's definitely the empire, it is an industrializing power thats mass deploying a fully professional army which has been called the best standardized army in the entire old world by the 8th edition rulebook, the best human mages and technology, mass deployed flintlock guns and being an overall economical powerhouse.

[@reidparker1848]

8th is prep for the ET nu-canon though, and I agree with the sentiment otherwise. I'll have to back through my 6th edition stuff

[@elliottprehn6342]

Great video! I love the points you made and you did a good job to cover your tracks with fair reason. Even things it seems you’re on the side of still have critiques brought to life

[@Goblinsharkhundredsofthem]

Although we can not deny that Bretonnia is a back water, since it's literally written to be one I must state a few things in it's defense, although we can not deny that Bretonnia is very feudalistic the King shares a few elements of meritocracy, at least to my knowledge, the King is chosen among grail knights and through acts of vitures keeps the dukedoms united. Further more Bretonnia is famed to have some of the greatest black smiths with a few even able to rival the elves.

[@CsStoker]

Having a plentiful farmable land is one of the biggest weaknesses of Brettonia, making your feudal economic system a permanent one that needs no change or improvement because the lack of anomalies avoid a technological change, makes them technologically stagnant

[@LillianAredhel]

Oooh more Warhammer Fantasy stuff!

[@ilyana1126]

I was just thinking about this topic and here you guys went ahead and made it.

[@anvos658]

This one was fairly obvious that it would be Empire and Cathay fighting it out for first and Kislev and Brettonia fighting it out for last. Personally I'd put Cathay and the Empire at tied, also you missed that they can call on Ogre mercenaries more readily than most powers in the allies and that people want their trade goods in cultural influence. Let alone the very fact they live so close to the Northern Wastes and yet their society isn't completely militarized pretty much shows how successful they've been, militarily.

[@gilesbarnes7456]

Good points all, however I think you are underestimating the power Cathay in some very particular ways. For one in politics you only looked at the macro level, governance of the entire nation. However I think in terms of this Cathay far outstrips the other nations of men and really any other faction in Warhammer. For one they do not use a system of hereditary fuedal landed nobles. Instead they use a commandery system which instead of relies on those being appointed showing merit and skill regardless of their social standing. The obvious question to follow this is who defines merit and we know that at the highest levels to be the Dragons who have themselves proved competent and effective at ruling at least when the Dragon Emperor is overseeing them and they have a lot of prestige to their name. Zhao Ming has massively advanced magic and science within the Kingdom as well as gaining Greasus and the Ogre Kingdoms as effective military auxiliaries for Cathay's armies. Miao Ying as effectively defended the Great Bastion so well that even the Everchosen have not been able to defeat her and even enter Grand Cathay. These are the people appointing mortals to positions within the Empire and they desire and know how to spot talent. In this Cathay is dominant. Finally Cathay's military while lacking the experience of Kislev does have an ability the other powers do not, to excert itself Globally. Cathay has under the direction of the Dragon Yin Yin, invaded the Southlands and Lustria with vast armies that although were defeated needed considerable might from local powers to deal with, particularly the Arabians and Lizardmen. This speaks volumes of the strength of Cathay's armies and fleets and their ability to project power. Finally Cathay's size argues potentially that it's diplomatic ability is lesser because there are not as many human tribes and factions to treat with and those that are around them we do not know Cathay's status with. Ind, Nippon, Kuresh there are hints that Cathay exerts control on tribes and people's of these region with the Monkey men and Onyx Crowmen being effectively vassal states and people's of Cathay. However it is just not known and that means Cathay's true strength has not yet been revealed. Overall a good video and brought up a lot of interesting and good arguments.

[@GrimgoreIronhide]

This is actually very simple, Kislev and Bretonnia are very explicitly weaker than the Empire in the lore, mostly due to their smaller populations and lack of technology. Kislev has some guns yes, but simply not on the scale that the Empire does. Cathey is more of an open question, I could see it being interpreted as stronger than the Empire however they do not have the close relationship with the Dwarves that the Empire has which served to boost their tech development significantly. The Empire also has the strongest magical institutions of any Human Nation due to Teclis establishing the Imperial collages of magic based off High Elf knowedge rather than the Empire advancing its own theory of magic. In short the Empire is clearly the strongest human nation because they are the only one that has absorbed as much knowedge from both the Elder races. While other human factions have better wizards than the Empire does none produces medium quality magic users with the same consistency or in the same numbers that the Empire does.

[@CyrodiilCome]

Bretonnia has cannons, super soldiers, and a larger population. They also have closer connections to the elves than the Empire

[@GrimgoreIronhide]

@@CyrodiilCome Bretonnia has cannons only at a sea (for very dubious reasons that I hesitate to even call valid in the lore anymore, but whatever) It does canonically have a stronger Navy than the Empire as well which will I will admit, as this makes sense due to Bretonnias much longer coastline. Another Bretonnian advantage you forgot: A significant portion of Bretonnia's leader base is made of said super soldiers and thus has a longer than human lifespan and very potent protection from both chaos corruption as well as conventional assassination. This is unquestionably Bretonnias biggest advantage over every other Human faction and its a big one. Even with this however Grail Knights are simply not enough to close the gap in power between the Empire and Bretonnia. Grail Knights areamazing and make the Brets one of the only Human nations that can beat Chaos and the Vampires head to head sometimes, but against the Empire they are to rare to make up the difference in technology between the countries, esspecialy against massed guns. I will have to disagree with wherever it is you got the notion that Bretonnia has a larger population than the Empire. Warhammer writers have messed up scale within Warhammer again and again, so I am not suprised it says this somewhere, but the word of one author is to little to go by. The Empire is clearly significantly larger than Bretonnia in terms of both land mass and population density and the vast majority of Warhammer lore is crystal clear on this point. Because they are far behind the Empire in technology as well the Empire is also better at making use of the population that it does have in wartime. This is made clear by both the general lore and the RP source material Knights of the Grail which goes into significant detail on Bretonnias population. The Empire has multiple cities in each of its Provinces and a number of smaller towns while Bretonnia only has one city per Duchy. Population is simply not comparable between the two. Bretonnias better relations with both the high elves and wood elves (Not to mention its relations with the Dwarves are not bad either) Are simply not enough. The High Elves are happy to trade with them and accept their aid, they would never help them against the Empire in any meaningful way, not just because they like the Empire up and running, but also because the Dwarves would likley side with the Empire if they got involved. Its just not something they are willing to shed blood over. In summary Grail Knights and good relations with the elves are very nice but they are not enough to give Bretonnia an edge over the Empire.

[@CyrodiilCome]

@@GrimgoreIronhide Bretonnia is an army of soldiers who've trained from the time they walk to fight. Supplemented by inbred surprisingly mediocrely armed peasant levees. Bretonnia has won wars against the Empire. And magic is the equalizer. Otherwise the elves wouldn't be vastly more powerful than the humans. Bretonnia has been aides by the wood elves against the Empire b4, Bretonnia does have a larger population than the Empire, their population was so large they use to launch crusades to get rid of the excess population. This is how the border princes, and a lot of the new world colonies got their start. Their leadership (Grail Knights) are more cohesive and wouldn't betray each other/ watch eachother burn to the ground. The Empire is politically unstable, with for the most part horrible leadership. A bretonnian army can rally and be on the move quicker than an Empire one.

[@mingchoi8369]

Truly, the god emperor Sigmar is pleased. Anyhow, I enjoyed this video. I hope you'll do similar comparison videos for other franchises, like Gundam.

[@clydethegreaty]

I hate to be "that guy" but I have to point out something that was stated that is factually incorrect. You made a statement during the political part on Cathay that they were no better than the Empire at avoiding civil war. This is, according to current canon anyway, incorrect as there is only 1 instance of Civil war in Cathay since its founding. The only civil war in Cathay's history was the era of disharmony when the Emperor and Empress disappeared and the Monkey King sized the throne. To only have 1 major, canon, civil war in thousands of years of history is very impressive and speaks to the stability of Cathay with the Dragons leading them. That said, I loved this video as it gave a very good perspective on the various nations of the Warhammer world that isn't often considered. I also love, LOVE, the new game! I was up waaaaaay to late playing last night. Ok rant over thank you lol

[@docks0]

I think the fact that imperial merchants are willing to try to walk to Cathay despite 1/10 will return, and less will return with goods. Suggests that while Cathay may need more people per ton of processed goods, they seem to ether have goods the western county's can't make or the craftsmanship is just that good. Personally I doubt the latter as Cathay is clearly based on china in the real world. Anyway my point is people will cross continents with a 90% mortality rate and of the survivors only a fraction will make any money, and Cathay doesn't seem to see the same kind of profit in trading with the other human countries. I understand that the Empire probably has higher production capacity per person. However, Cathay is the only country in hammer that is safe to travel in. This means 100% of shipped goods get to their destination. as a result I really think Cathay is the dominant force economically. However the Empire is just stronger overall by virtue of its friends.

[@lettuceman9439]

Not really if you remember the Ogres can be bride specially in greasus territory and that Cathay itself has caravan going to thd west sponsored by the dragons themselves while those in the empire save for those under the Burgmeister and elector counts are mainly from the empire rising middle class. Cathay like the empire has holes in its territory with tzeench cults controlling cities and skaven and ogres eating cathayan villages.

[@docks0]

​@@lettuceman9439 I was unaware that Cathay was sending caravans west. Thats my mistake. But they don't have beastmen prowling the countryside, and as long as you stick to the roads you are relatively (compared to other Warhammer counties) safe. Obviously in Warhammer everywhere is vulnerable to chaos cults and skaven/ogers however, unless I have greatly misinterpreted the available material (which is quite possible) Cathay is one of the only counties with a sophisticated network of soldiers, hardware, and autonomous terracotta warriors. Positioned to respond quickly to emergencies not just in cities but on roads as well. Additionally I think the fact that the caravans from the west come from people who have other options to make money that presumably have higher survival and success rates. Shows just how much money can be made in the west by completing just one trip. Similarly I just don't see the same kind of life altering incentives for caravans in Cathay.

[@weirdofromhalo]

Chinese craftsmanship was highly sought after in the real world.... Don't base your assumptions on the modern day.

[@docks0]

@@weirdofromhalo I'm sorry I don't understand how that has anything to do what we are talking about.

[@weirdofromhalo]

@@docks0 Then reread your original post.

[@galling2052]

I realy enjoyed this comparison. At first i thought cathay would be an easy first, but yea its obvious that an abundance of alies in combination with industrialisation would put the empire first.

[@sephiroaone-of-nine101]

Ok, the empire needed allies in dire sotuatio otherwise it would been steamrolled. With out the elves no magical lores, without the dwarves no guns nor allied help, with out the wood elves let more beastmen, without kislev always invaded first. Meanwhile Cathay has stood against chaos on its front door eons before Sigman became a God and yes never fallen. Not even with that money business

[@jdee8407]

You forgot to mention that Cathay owns a major airlines that serves most of South-East Asia.

[@anotherperson2627]

I think one of the big issues with ranking the human nations is the way Warhammer is written. The old word has been far more developed so the eastern nations aren't super well written since a lot of them didn't have armies.

[@DRTisKING]

Brettonian Royarchs HAVE to be Grail Knights, blessed by the Lady of the Lake and noble in both bearing and spirit. Unlike the Empire or Cathay the Only "civil war" was caused by vampiric corruption of the most powerful Dukedom. Brettonia is ludicrously stable and has supported overseas colonial efforts and anti piratical naval actions.

[@Tribune_of_Italia]

Yeah really wished that would've been mentioned. The aristocracy of Brettonia is noble by nature of their relationship with the Lady.

[@bubbasbigblast8563]

Stable to an extent: there's always the risk of the peasants rising up, and the knights alone only go so far.

[@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547]

The royarch is also pretty powerless outside of war and more representative then anything

[@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547]

@@Tribune_of_Italia it's not tough. The vast majority of Bretonias nobility is deeply corrupt and the lady allows titanic misuse of human life. Grail knights only make up a few Dozent knights in the country

[@kitfox92]

Was literally about to type this. they Royarch is literally chosen by a god.

[@twilightgryphon]

I would disagree with you on Kislev's army being "the best" in the world. I would certainly count them as "the toughest" or "most tenacious" but the best? Hardly. Kislev is one step away from a regional backwater, its people barely above a more primitive level of fighting due to the harsh and rugged nature of the land. They may be used to fighting demons but their supplier of arms and ammunition is the Empire. The two of them go to war, they lose their supply. Then all of a sudden you see them being shredded by ranks of volley fire and massed artillery barrages. Think the opening of Gladiator but with more guns and cannons instead of bows and scorpions (Roman anti-personnel ballistae for those who don't know by name)

[@arandomcomment7208]

Up until tzar boris kislev had barely if any actual gunpowder so most living kislivite spiders could still kick ass without it. Plus they are more unified and don't have to deal with 12 bickering morons to agree to go to war before fighting anything they just go kill it

[@canale39youification]

@@arandomcomment7208 Bruh if it wasn't for the Empire, Kislev would've been wiped out in the Great War against Chaos two centuries before reign of Karl Franz lol

[@valloarukaevu2846]

@@canale39youification and yet the kislevites survived the biggest chaos incursion ever recorder until then. They survived as a relative backwater long enough for the empire to come to their aid. On paper they should have been wiped out before the empire could even marshall it's forces, never mind get there, but they did. Their army is definitely, man for man, better than any other human factions based on their deeds(not taking into account grail knights, those things aren't human) it's just the facts that their economy, population and internal divisions are bad that is holding them back. But those same reasons are probably what creates their strong soldiery so I guess they can't really complain that much.

[@canale39youification]

@@valloarukaevu2846 "barely surviving only thanks to foreign aid" doesn't sound exactly a statement of unmatched strength. I could also mention how they got pretty much swept away almost effortlessly during the Storm of Chaos by Archaon, but that's a whole other can of worms considering how it's mostly considered non-canon due to the idiotic polices of GW.

[@DominionSorcerer]

I don't think you understand how uncommon gunpowder weaponry is in the Empire. Sure, the Empire fields a large variety of artillery, pistols and rifles, but not in any large amounts outside of Nuln and Altdorf. They are costly to make, they are expensive to buy and most Elector Counts can't afford to field little more than one unit or two of handgunners. The largest amount of cannon ever fielded in a single battle was roughly 100, and that was a combined army of three dwarfen holds and Nuln. For an historical comparison, both sides at the Battle of Lützen had a combined number of 84 cannon. So most battles featuring the Empire is going to be like the opening of Gladiator, but with very small numbers of gunpowder weaponry and mostly bows, crossbows, scorpions, ballistae and catapults and trebuchets.

[@KoltoMephet]

You forgot the all important "rides bears" category. SHIELD OF HUMANITY!

[@pootis2476]

Bretonnia's economy and govermnet are antiquated, I'll give you that, but it's military is far more powerfull. While the average footman is not very strong, the fact that it's cavalry consists of living saints with blessed weapons increases it's efectivness tenfold. Also, while they do not use guns, archers and trebuchets are effective. To add to this, I believe Bretonnia has the most effective navy out of the 3.

[@karlfranzemperorofmandefil5547]

It doesn’t consist of them… there is like two Dozent tops in all of bretonia

[@gagemullis313]

In the military segment of the video, it shouldn't be left out that the Bretonnian Knights outclass the Knightly orders of the Empire, they have the very best cavalry in the entire Old World

[@shotgunmcshotgun1142]

Knights are all well and good but muskets are armour piercing

[@elefprime8809]

Cathay could possibly dominate in all categories but we know very little about it because it has almost no lore while the Empire is basically the Warhammer poster boy.

[@alexandrub8786]

Yeah, disagree that the empire is the best in economy because while more eficent Cathay has the numbers of workers that can compensate for that.

[@Tenebraeification]

@@alexandrub8786 Cathay may have the most potential for the best economic power, it's also on the wrong side of the planet. The Empire has a far easier time trading with the High Elves, Brettonia, the dawi strongholds, Kislev and the Border Princes. Than Cathay does as the latter has to practically go through an odyssey before their caravans reach the rest of the Old world then make the trip back. Frankly that's the problem with Cathay, they're just so out of the way from the other "Ordertide" factions that they might as well be on an island like Ulthoan. Except replace ocean water with mountain ranges and wastlands full of chaos, ogres, orks and barbaric tribes.

[@alexandrub8786]

@@Tenebraeification you talk like they don't or can't do trade with Nippon or the kingdoms of Ind. and what is in the Hinterlands of Khuresh.

[@lettuceman9439]

Cathay is isolationist

[@Joker-yw9hl]

It's essentially Cathay or the Empire. If the Empire is united by a strong ruler it is temporarily stronger, but the general rule in my mind is that Cathay is consistently stronger. Both admirable civilisations in their own ways

[@SimonNZ6969]

In every Empire playthrough, I always conquer Bretonnia first. I just can't help but think I could use that land better than they ever could...

[@kirk7528]

Love Warhammer Content, especially comparison videos!

[@Gorbz]

Remember that the Empire's forrests do not help them. Yes, they provide plenty of lumber, but they also house Goblin tribes and Beastman warheards who are both all too willing to raid Empire villages and towns in order to kill or make off with their citizens.

[@Khetsisal33]

I think Kislev Politics is middeling at best. The supreme office of the Tzar/Tzarina is actively questioned by the empowered boyars, and there's a lot of infighting as a result. Kislev in total war literally starts off with a civil war by one such unhappy ruling class.

[@drag0nelf]

The Empire, everything else is heresy.

[@TheTeKuZa]

Try to witchhunt in Kislev and Kislev manhunts you!

[@King-Maelstrom-the-Esoteric]

Dangit. You beat me to it.

[@robertshaw1793]

Would love to see an updated or part 2 evaluation of these 4 nations with all of the new lore/info updates.