You MIGHT have been cheating for YEARS!

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#Farfa #YuGiOh #Cheating

[@DistantCoder]

Dude, I wish I wasn't half asleep while we were having this discussion, my explanations were so terribly worded LOL

[@Kalin_Kessler]

I love you

[@ElsePerson]

Take my babies

[@scizor285]

Hiya coder!

[@aphextwinkie410]

You did great sweetie

[@coardlowery322]

Thanks for putting up with farfa's madness for our sake :)

[@alucard4344]

Gotta love children's card game... So simple and straightforward....

[@hardcoregamer264]

@Alu Card and so sarcastic are you XD

[@emmahas2moms8038]

Idiots:”It’S fOr KiDs” Also idiots: “I don’t understand this game, so confusing!” The kids: “wtf is this boomer bs???”

[@denisvodovozov1099]

Gotta love Farfa... So quite and mature

[@madsvigan2898]

well its just farfa being stupid. "I see some cards together I dont like, so I change that". If he cant see thats cheating, then he is rather stupid.

[@alucard4344]

@@madsvigan2898 i think you're confusing ethically wrong to cheating. It'd be called cheating if there was a ruling against it, but since there isn't, you'll just come out as a massive chode but not a cheater.

[@Wannabechefguy]

*stacks deck during ROTA search, just to stall. JOKINGLY*

[@alphander7478]

I didn't even KNOW I was stacking!

[@casinoroyal93]

They sent me no mail no message

[@topgearturbo9]

If they can do it while playing at a reasonable pace then go for it. Also PSA just call a judge for slow play, just do it, if you think your opponent is slow playing you then they probably are. just call the judge

[@tiborn1559]

Jokingly making a video saying you did not stall for time. JOKINGLY

[@Krasser_Crusader]

I swear to god Ace Attorney is such a great game and "meme" template! You can make such great things with that! Just as here. Heard Vlad has done this. Well done!!!

[@ogeid772]

Kinda of a shame the guy named Phoenix was the one accusing Farfa, it would make more sense to have Coder as Edgeworth and Phoenix as, well, Phoenix

[@megaman12521]

The best way to truly determine whether or not it is cheating is by hiring Dream's rocket scientist to determine whether or not the deck is truly randomized in the event of declumping.

[@eleonarcrimson858]

lmao

[@aether9083]

I'm not a scientist, but do have a physics degree. If artificially affecting probability is considered cheating, then, yes, "declumping" is cheating. Having three cards stuck together is a valid random state. Just because they are the same card does not mean that their arrangement is not the result of a random process. The only way to "declump" them legally would be to simply shuffle the deck without splitting the clumped cards up first. The end result of a properly shuffled deck is still a random state. Mathematically, it should be okay. However, these are physical objects, and I'm sure all of us are familiar with cards or sheets of paper getting stuck together or being mildly attracted to each other. "Declumping" would articially break this kind of interaction. I'm not sure the significance this interaction would actually have on the state of the shuffled deck though. Best case would be to just shuffle, have your opponent cut the deck, and shuffle again. Edit: lol ignore this, I read another comment saying Konami has stated that a deck must be thoroughly shuffled after any sort of pre-sorting. So "declumping" is okay as long as it's properly shuffled afterward. I haven't played Yu-Gi-Oh in almost 8 years and just randomly stumbled upon this video.

[@pyro-is-magic8202]

@@aether9083 &&

[@pyro-is-magic8202]

@@aether9083 g

[@pyro-is-magic8202]

@@aether9083 *

[@SuperMono64]

I love how Coder was Phoenix and Phoenix was Edgeworth

[@netcat22]

THEY HAD ONE JOB

[@mintagenart]

I think it's cuz Coder was defending and Phoenix was prosecuting

[@casualbreloom]

Doesn't the second bullet of "You cannot pre-sort your Deck without thoroughly shuffling the Deck afterwards" imply that it's okay to sort your deck during searching? The implication seems to be that you can do anything you want with card order so long as you shuffle afterwards.

[@marque_iii3859]

THANK YOU

[@thegreatkylini]

I was about to make this comment. The part that says “thoroughly shuffling AFTERWORDS” is what sells it for me

[@DXYS95]

Yup, that's correct. HOWEVER, in order to truly randomize a 40 cards deck you need to perform more than 20 riffle shuffles, which no one does because it would take too long. Therefore, "declumping" your deck will have an effect on the deck you present to your opponent (which equals to cheating, somewhat). If your opponent happens to do this (which is very rare), take your sweet time to shuffle their deck

[@burnpisces7733]

@@DXYS95 homie I don’t know if you understand a riffle shuffle because it’s literally random unless you perform a Farro shuffle which is perfectly spacing your cards one to one. Which takes a lot of precision. You’ll end up randomizing the cards just by having more than one card land in between each as you riffle.

[@DXYS95]

@@burnpisces7733 I don't think you understand shuffle theory. You might want to look into it

[@LeodSMW]

What chat doesn't get is that you could do literally anything to your deck, even stack every single card perfectly how you want them without affecting the end result. This is because if your method of randomization REALLY "randomized" as per the word's definition, the state of the deck prior to the randomization should not affect how random it is after. Obviously nobody properly randomizes their deck during a duel though (takes like a couple dozen riffle shuffles each time) so Konami is just living in fantasyland where theory always holds perfectly true.

[@jsd4574]

That's exactly the problem though. The fact that declumping works demonstrates that the deck isn't truly random. Obviously we're not after true cryptographic randomness, but effective psuedorandomness is still important, and if declumping effects the result, you're clearly not shuffling you're deck sufficiently, which is why it's cheating. The 'cheat' isn't the stacking, it's the failure to effectively shuffle ,which, for the record, doesn't take dozens of riffles. The average is seven for a 52 card deck to be functionally indistinguishable from true randomness, and less for a smaller deck. So the problem isn't that the deck was stacked, it's that after stacking it, you shuffled it once or twice and maybe cut it, rather than actually shuffling properlly.

[@rosamelcachoful]

Based

[@EpicKingofFail]

@@jsd4574 That fault ultimately falls to your opponent tho, because they're the one who has the final cut + by doing so agrees that the deck is sufficiently randomized. If you are unhappy with how your opponent shuffled their deck, tell them to shuffle it again.

[@jsd4574]

@@EpicKingofFail If you attempt to stack your deck and the opponent fails to properly randomise, they may have been able to prevent it, but you're still the one initiating the cheat and you still get punished for it, not them

[@assault410]

Failure of your opponent to undo your stack doesn't excuse you from said stacking

[@dkyu-gi-oh]

Whatever you do to your deck, riffle shuffle 7 times and its fully randomized! So the declumping doesn't even matter.

[@thiccupcake]

Light played speedrun

[@tratanlightbreaker6029]

I mean, it does but not enough to matter

[@purplekt1722]

And then the opponent calls the judge for stalling while you are on your 5th or 6th shuffle.

[@MegaLolboy]

If it doesnt matter then why do it :)

[@dhanyl2725]

And people didn't take into account that clumping might happen again after the last cut...

[@MSTTV]

"You cannot check or arrange any cards while shuffling", searching not shuffling, I see my entire deck. I see the clump, you can declump. I don't see an issue as long as there is shuffling afterward. If you separate them, and then, shuffle, they randomize, the random chance of them being clumped together still exists... because its random. "Deck is stacked order, gets randomized = deck is now random" "Deck order is confirmed by searching, deck gets declumped, deck gets randomized = deck is now random" Random chance by definition is an unknown. The deck as long as it is unknown and random how it is currently ordered doesn't truly matter. Even if a game state rewound, and different cards were drawn, the cards could have been anything in the deck. People really need to get the notion of "pre-arranged""fate" out of their system yaknow.

[@jadegrace1312]

I think this whole debate is because yugioh players have such bad shuffling habits that they think that "declumping" will actually affect the randomization of the deck

[@JohnnyYeTaecanUktena]

@@jadegrace1312 You know i never thought about if i was mana flooded or screwed to play a tutor just to search and while searching to declump then shuffle

[@Zuvas]

If the odds are the same, then why do they bother declumping their own deck in the first place? Its definitely illegal, and if not; it definitely should be

[@MSTTV]

Because declumping offers peace of mind and can actually save time. I've witnessed people after they search and they see 3 cards stuck together. Since they can choose whatever method to randomize after, they choose to do a quick pile shuffle and then riffle while randomizing after the search eating extra time. The funny thing is: its isn't uncommon where after they split it up and riffle, they get clumped back together.

[@intergalacticdegengypsy6135]

Shuffling isn't actually random until like 100 shuffles though, 1 or 2 quick shuffles is most likely not gonna split those cards and at most U may lose 1 of the 3. Are U allowed to rearrange Ur deck at all in Yu-Gi-Oh?

[@seb5689]

"I interpreted the thing wrong" is the saltiest way to say "you're right".

[@seancoombs4652]

but what if i was wrong but you're still not right?

[@TheSuperf12]

I see your point but after having so much arguments IRL saying stuff like this is good enough... beats things like: "you obviously dont get it" or "i dont know how you could understand it that way but it is clearly this way" atleast saying that you interpreted the thing wrong gives a chance of you being wrong and accepting someone else's point... in the end people dont like being wrong no matter what side it is just helps when both try to be more open minded about it.

[@7F0X7]

Anything in the entire *WORLD* to avoid saying; "I was wrong."

[@dedbot9872]

He truly is Edgeworth

[@davidristic1824]

Vlad is just such a good editor widepeepoHappy

[@duelistacademy2014]

I feel like the point that should have been raised is. "Why are you separating those cards?" You have no need to separate them as you are about to shuffle? The shuffle as discussed randomise your deck so there location at that point is irelevant. The only reason to separate cards would be to alter the percentage of drawing the same cards or like for like cards togther. Which at that point if your alternating your deck to give you a better result during a shuffle you're soft cheating I feel.

[@taino175]

Yeaa EXACTLY.

[@sergioosorio369]

This!

[@fazdingo29]

the thing is the same result can be achieved by shuffling your deck really thoroughly and nobody has an issue with that. declumping is just a shortcut to save time. unless of course you prefer to sit there and let your opponent shuffle until they know they are no longer clumped (which is legal)

[@duelistacademy2014]

@@fazdingo29 the shuffle should always be enough to randomise the deck. So there is no reason to "de clump" or "clump" cards togther. If the deck is randomised it's random. Unless you explain what reason you have for de clumping other then increasing the probability of not seeing certain cards togther? But that would means your manipulating the chances of a better outcome

[@taino175]

@@fazdingo29 yea dude I'd rather let homie shuffle till he's content than watch him declump. Something bout that doesn't sit right w me

[@Janders797]

The reason people call declumping cheating is because it does nothing if you shuffle sufficiently for randomization, but gives you an advantage if you shuffle insufficiently, meaning, from a purely logical standpoint, there is no reason to ever declump unless you plan on cheating. However, human are not purely Logical, but also emotional beings. Declumping puts your mind at rest, knowing that these 3 aren’t together anymore.

[@chibiraptor]

If there's a "Shuffle" button that randomizes the deck, no amount of stacking before pressing that button will affect random chance. Phoenix is super wrong. However, trying to "De-clump" your deck by separating cards is you trying to cheat. You're failing at it because the shuffling should undo your influence on your deck, but the intention is to influence your draws beyond random chance.

[@matthewherlihy1106]

this is probably the best way to put it.

[@gtdfg4594]

I agree that it has an influence on the shuffling, but that doesn't automatically rule it as cheating. Different methods of shuffling have varying effectiveness, the "right" ones are the ones pointed out by Konami. By experience, shuffling quickly in certain ways makes the deck have not only 3 copies _very_ close to eachother, but also in a similar order regarding more than 5 cards (specially notable when you shuffle a deck that has 3 copies of each card divided by groups, like starters or extenders, one after another), and yet most judges deem it sufficient. In cases like these, separating cards can help out spreading randomization more evenly throughout the deck, resulting in a "more randomized" spread than it otherwise would have been. Of course, this regards shuffling after separating cards and the opponent's cut.

[@matthewherlihy1106]

@@gtdfg4594 I think the issue is more about the intention of the action the player is taking. They are putting their cards in a certain way that they deem could give them an advantage by making it, in their minds, less likely to, "Draw multiples of the same card." The shuffling afterwards really isn't the issue. It's what they're doing mechanically with intent to produce a more "ideal" outcome.

[@four-en-tee]

Well, no, if your deck is going to be thoroughly shuffled afterwards and then your opponent is also going to thoroughly shuffle it, then it really shouldn't matter. Its not something i do since i just don't pay attention to the order of my cards when i'm searching through my deck (its gonna get randomized afterwards anyways). I do think it affects random chance to some degree, but as far as what's currently written in the rule book, i don't see an issue with this whatsoever and it personally doesn't matter to me. The deck is gonna get thoroughly shuffled anyways. I think its the responsibility of the judge to rule when someone is stacking, and this doesn't exactly look like stacking, so i have no real issue with this. And if an opponent takes issue with it, they can spend as looooong as they're allowed to to shuffle your deck and ensure randomness. That being said, i'm not a judge. I'm just a casual player, lol.

[@matthewherlihy1106]

@@four-en-tee oh I agree it really doesn't matter if the deck is getting properly randomized afterwards, realistically I disagree with this rule, but my viewpoints are not what is at hand here. We are talking about how konami judges are supposed to interpret cheating as per the official policy docs. Like I said the issue is not randomization, but what the intent of the player is, which is a huge part of how they determine what constitutes cheating.

[@n0ame1u1]

You have to shuffle properly afterwards anyway, so it shouldn't matter

[@AzazgaPhil]

It clearly says that you CANNOT pre-sort your deck WITHOUT thoroughly shuffling afterwards. This therefore implies that you CAN pre-sort your deck IF you thoroughly shuffle afterwards. Declumping is technically pre-sorting - so you are 100% fine to do this.

[@Poske_Ygo]

how many people do this and then do not thoroughly shuffle, so we as opponents should thoroughly shuffle every time they give us an option to cut... bunch of time waste.

[@WeskintimeASVAL679-89]

Honestly. This sounds like something a Dragon Link user would cry about.

[@Sebto360]

Don't mind me, I'm just "declumping" my Harpie's Feather Duster to the top and my Red-Eyes Fusion to the bottom

[@louisfriend9592]

And then your opponent shuffles your deck and you draw red-eyes fusion anyway

[@fazdingo29]

@@louisfriend9592 this

[@dedbot9872]

"You cannot *check* or arrange cards while *shuffling*"

[@robinparadiso1701]

This being illegal implies that the position of cards in your deck while searching stay trackable even after shuffeling, which would conclude that every search gives you illegal information. If the position of a card you "stacked" would be trackable so would the random Nibiru you saw topdeck while going through the deck if it wasnt replaced by the "stacked" card before shuffeling.

[@LucianDevine]

It's not so much that it's trackable, it's that he is trying to consciously manipulate the deck to get a more even spread AFTER the randomization. If he's "properly" randomizing the deck, he shouldn't need to declump before randomizing.

[@Garchomp4LiFee]

@@LucianDevine this is the correct point. If anyone is actually doing any decent job of shuffling the deck, I WANT my clump to stay, because there's such a small chance of them sticking together after thorough shuffling.

[@profanemagic5671]

@@Garchomp4LiFee The thing is: it does not matter if you de-clump or not in the first place, assuming you randomize properly. If it somehow makes you FEEL better to de-clump before you randomize, go for it. Doing so (AND not doing so) will not affect the end-result, if, again, randomized properly.

[@frankestradag9474]

There are effects that send you a group of cards to the bottom of the deck in any order you want, I think Konami knows

[@ChaoticMeatballTV]

So I always thought that the conclusion from this video was that declumping wasn't cheating, but a Pokemon TCG player pointed out pretty effectively that you could totally use declumping as a way to run down the timer, even by a few seconds.

[@SimpsonsCem]

If it doesn't matter, if you declump the Deck, why even do it in the first place? There are just 2 options: A: The declumping lowers your chance to draw the card 2x in a row -> its stacking because you manipulate your Deck. B: After the shuffling process your Deck is randomized and the prior declumping has no effect on your deck order -> why even declump in the first place, if it doesn't matter?

[@dkyu-gi-oh]

It's option B and our human brains think that declumping influences the randomization. If properly randomized, it doesn't matter, but our brain doesn't like it.

[@AnimatedCarl]

Exactly this. You're shuffling anyway. That would do the "declumping." And randomized doesn't mean varied. If you were to flip a coin 10 times, it wouldn't be a perfect Heads -> Tails pattern. It's still entirely possible to get Heads 5 times in a row or only get Tails.

[@Ms666slayer]

For me is just a mania, seen 3 card togheter while playing just triggers me, so i declump them just to calm myself then i riffle shuffle like 10 times and pass the deck to my opponent for cutting, so yeah the acty of shuffling the deck maskes the declumping miningless.

[@michael_betts]

@@dkyu-gi-oh Unless you sit there doing a full shuffle at least 7 times every time you shuffle, then you aren't guy randomizing the cards, and the new locations depend on the previous locations. This is why casinos are constantly shuffling with shuffling machines.

[@Kawaiisikkusu]

@@Ms666slayer that's a really good explanation.

[@dantevega5103]

It actually is written in the rulebook to NOT do that, but everyone does

[@joekimlee9057]

Staring Distantcoder as Phoenix Wright Phoenix as Miles Edgeworth

[@ドランシア十二獣]

And farfa as judge

[@reepi6250]

I would absolutely do the same, but if the deck is getting 100% randomised afterwards then it really shouldn’t matter as they shouldn’t be together anymore kekw

[@TheLiverpoolOwen]

when shuffling, depending on the method used there is a chance that those 3 cards happen to stay together, whilst not likely it can and does happen, by moving the cards apart you then know for 100% fact that they where not together before shuffling. when I play and do any search effect and see cards clumped together I often split them up and then make sure that I heavily shuffle the deck

[@joshuagroom7068]

@@TheLiverpoolOwen ... So then you're purposefully altering the state of your deck order then. There's either no point in doing this, or you shouldn't be doing it since it helps your odds.

[@Marcusjnmc]

know people be lazy shuffling though, sometimes riffle shuffle pass & opponent tap deck, cut pass back, and that was pre covid

[@TheMatt_SD]

@@joshuagroom7068 the 3rd option is the cards are legitimately stuck together by static or gunk on the sleeves, in which case I suppose you should change sleeves, but that's not feasible in the middle of a duel. Other option is player superstition, in which case it also doesn't really matter, so who cares if they do or don't do it?

[@yousexythang208]

@@TheMatt_SD There are two reasons to do it: superstition and cheating.

[@Freedomcobraclan]

Farfa flossing is by far leagues more sus than him declumping, that's for sure.

[@Chase1995]

I used to declump out of habit in Weiss Schwarz, a game where damage is entirely dependent on the deck state, and a judge friend told me to stop doing that. According to him it is ultimately up to the judges' interpretation of the rules so it could be up to your luck if your opponent decides to shark you and how the judge you meet interprets the rulebook. So just to be on the safe side I entirely cut out this habit to avoid any and all bullshit this could bring about. Also why isn't Phoenix just Phoenix lol.

[@delgande]

He JOKINGLY stacked his deck

[@demonkingt]

above the blue highlighted bit. that's what you need to read. that's the exact thing you're refering to in this conversation. in other words as long as you thoroughly shuffle afterwards you are fine since you are refering to pre-sorting essentially while doing your search.

[@shina4229]

I think this is more of a Moral question than a legal one. IF truly randomized, why declump it anyway? If you declump it, you are expecting that the randomizing wont be so random, so you are actually stacking. This is more of a problem in Remote format, where the opponent can't shuffle your deck. In real life, the problem will be more of the opponents than yours, as he can always shuffle your deck which might result in clumping.

[@kingfatih]

Good point.

[@casinoroyal93]

Cause shuffling is not a true randomization

[@bijuutamer729]

I kinda get what the chet callers are talking about. In the scenario where there so happens to be 3 card stuck together than the duelist would be incentivize to split them because this would effectively mean that this three of card would either always be stacked together and drawn 3 times in a row or they would never actually see this three of card because the cards are always moving together.

[@Marcusjnmc]

it doesn't because it's going to be shuffled anyway

[@bijuutamer729]

@@Marcusjnmc depends. Most people shuffle by clumps. If you observe shuffling amongst most people they aren’t shuffling very precisely. Unlike something like power shuffling. Although in some advance cases power shuffling can be used to stack. Regardless. It’s pretty petty to call out uncumbling if your opponent is given the option to shuffle the deck.

[@kotkafer2292]

This might just be the most "AKCHUALLY" ruling discussions i have ever witnessed lmao

[@4dchessmoves235]

Lets compare this to another scenario that has a different purpose but would fall into same category, say your searching for rota you place a stratos on the bottom of your deck, place a bubbleman on the bottom of your deck, place a shadow mist on the bottom of your deck, place a vyon on the bottom of your deck and shuffle through the cards you placed on the bottom of your deck while your deciding which one your going to add to your hand, you make your choice place it on the table to show your opponent and you place the the other 3 cards randomly into your deck facedown, shuffle your deck and pass your deck to your opponent to shuffle/ cut. Now lets say your searching your deck for a card again and all 9 of your handtraps and clumped together and all your spell cards are also clumped together so you shuffle your hand traps into your spells and then shuffle the pile of spells/ hand traps into the rest of your deck so your deck no longer looks like you organized it for a deck profile, add your card, then shuffle your deck like normally and pass to your opponent to shuffle/ cut. As far as I've seen it ruled, you can move cards around your deck whenever you go into your deck for any effect that will result in your deck being shuffled. What it all comes down to is your opponent always has the option to shuffle and cut your deck, if you see your opponent moving cards around in their deck its your responsibility to make sure you shuffle their deck effectively. Lets even say your opponent goes into their deck to add a card and you see them moving 2 or 3 cards from throughout their deck and placing them towards the top of their deck then they do it again and place them 7 or 8 cards from the top of their deck and they repeat this moving cards around and placing them every 5 or 6 cards away untill they stack their deck how they want all the way through their whole deck, they dont shuffle but instead just cut their deck and hand it to you. What are you going to do call a judge and say "he chet he stack his whole deck then didnt shuffle" or are you just going to shuffle the deck until you feel its been effectively shuffled, maybe pile shuffle a couple times? Even if you do call jadge and accuse your opponent of stacking first things hes going to ask you is did he offer you his deck to shuffle/cut? This is why you always shuffle your opponents deck, they could have stacked their deck before they sat down at the table with you or while they were siding, there are shuffling techniques where you can move around groups of 5 cards so it looks likes their shuffling but there just moving around 8 stacks of 5 prestacked perfect hands where if all you do is cut your opponent deck their still going to draw at least 3 or 4 of their stacked cards.

[@brandonbrown5020]

While this may not be cheating it is definitely a waste of time. If the deck is going to be randomized anyway there is no reason to spend time "declumping". I feel like this just enables slow play.

[@luminous3558]

Nobody is putting a deck in a shuffling machine though, if stuff is clumped it could stick together through a halfhearted shuffling, especially if 2-3 sleeves are stuck to each other. In theory none of this should happen but sleeves wear out, get sticky or have static all the time and most shuffling methods don't fix this by themselves.

[@fazdingo29]

it isn't a waste of time because you aren't technically randomizing your deck by the definition of random. in most cases those cards will not be declumped during the average attempt at shuffling

[@brandonbrown5020]

@@fazdingo29 I understand what you and Luminous are saying but my issue with that argument is that you can't prove that those clumped cards would not have naturally been the cards you would draw. Once you start deliberately moving cards around the deck ceases to be random because randomness implies a lack of purpose or intent with the way you are shuffle. If you see three ash blossoms together and move them around because you don't like that they're in close proximity then that is not random. I don't want this to turn into a war, because this is just a game so I'll leave it at that. We can just agree to disagree. Have a nice day.

[@PhoenixFlareX]

I have been farmed for content what the hell???

[@RamenCupBMG]

if the heart of the cards want you to draw the same card three times in a row, you have to have faith

[@qwertyuiop-qv4qv]

when phoenix says that if you declump and then shuffle it affects randomization: it doesnt. if it's randomized you can't trace back to the original state. and once you declump and shuffle (randomly) you can't "de-shuffle" to get to the original card sequence

[@dnd1016]

>Does cringe dancing on cam to flex me: This guy’s a legend

[@SpectreXS]

At the end of the day, "DeClumping" is something that literally does nothing, but it does make the person look suspicious. If you shuffle the deck correctly, and trust your randomization, there's no need to "scramble cards that are too much together". So why declump in the first place?

[@professorsequoia7318]

If you're insisting that shuffling at the end randomizes your deck properly, then there would be no reason to declump your cards. You're declumping them to spread them out because no shuffle method is perfect. Just saying. Bring me in on VC

[@Anans1_Spyd3r]

I mean I would agree with you unless the cards are actually stuck together for whatever reason and then separating makes sense since they may remain together. I have been in virtual games where my opponent drew Ash Blossom every turn when I checked the replay and to be frank from that standpoint I kinda like declumping.

[@igotveemon]

Cards can be stuck together unnaturally, eg. due to moisture, when they're put into the deck. Ash blossoms are a playset, you usually put them together when you put them into the deck, it absolutely makes sense you want them to be separated before you shuffle, because otherwise your shuffle isn't legit.

[@Marcusjnmc]

people are lazy & don't thoroughly shuffle even though they should, the opponent's shuffle is their responsibility in maintaining the gamestate by ensuring the deck is getting properly randomised, and people who are good at it can stack/declump while shuffling while looking like a completely normal shuffle, so even though declumping like this looks more sus any opponent should really be trying as hard to randomise the deck as though they knew 100% the opponent's deck had been stacked the biggest issue here is the time rules, particularly towards end of time the randomness of the game state is maintained worse & worse as players rush through steps/attempt to at least be seen to be going through actions quickly so that they don't lose to a judge call on stalling but the current time rules mess with the integrity of the game in a bunch of ways anyway, even without this

[@professorsequoia7318]

@@igotveemon For unnatural causes like that I totally agree. With that said I feel like this should be done before a match right? My point pertains to when you shuffle before a duel, and by random change copies of a card are clumped. In that case it's perfectly valid in the definition of randomness. Randomness does not equal spread apart exclusively.

[@professorsequoia7318]

@@Anans1_Spyd3r agreed with all your points. If the cards are unnaturally stuck, then yeah of course separate and clean your sleeves! The sad thing is with virtual sims their "randomness" actually means all cards are spread out. It's a fun excersize in a coding program. Have the computer randomly generte numbers between 1 and 1000 a total of 1000 times. Then separate those numbers into 4 columns (1-250, 251-500, 501-750, 751-1000). You will see that these four groups all end up being 25% of the total numbers meaning it's not random. These virtual sims use the same computing logic sadly.

[@baval5]

This whole argument could have been avoided if he had just read the next line: You cannot pre-sort your deck **without** thoroughly shuffling the deck afterwards. Implying that you **can** presort your deck as long as you shuffle after.

[@AndreaGiuseppeCastriotta]

Splitting "clumps" of cards is, by mathematical study, making the deck MORE random when you shuffle it afterwards, actually.

[@ironmenace]

Preshuffle and know the mindset of calm When your opponent scratches your sleeve report to judge

[@digitalmon]

pokemon tcg has specific rules against 'declumping', so it would be cheating in that game, but the konami rules make it very unclear - i think what coder is saying makes sense, but if konami wants to clarify it they should either specifically say declumping is not allowed, or do nothing i guess

[@dandok3996]

Is there a rule on declumping because Im reading through the doc and I can't see any

[@SkumleBones]

@@dandok3996 Their isnt, hes just spreading false information

[@profanemagic5671]

If they had that rule, the only thing that confirms is that the rule-maker had no idea what they were doing, because that does not make any sense.

[@RDMANGLEYT]

if they are clumped, shuffling a few times should split them up, there for if DE clumping is done, then you might know how many draws you might need to draw those cards,. even if you shuffle after words, you could have just shuffled and still get random

[@Masterbrax1]

You gotta spread those aleisters out when they are clumped 😇

[@RaineBans]

spread aleister you say?

[@thiccupcake]

Nah m8 back to back aleister is the way for sure

[@casinoroyal93]

Wide spread aleister

[@zioncommand]

*A L E I S T E R*

[@ismelljello]

Random is random. Even if you declumped the three cards, the shuffle could reclump them.

[@zardichar3903]

"You cannot pre-sort your Deck (Sorting Monsters/Spells/Traps, etc.) **Without thoroughly shuffling the deck afterwards.**" That last bit ends the entire argument right there

[@SkumleBones]

but your telling the yugioh community to actually read LOL

[@Musical_Nero]

If my opponent ever complains about me doing this I'm just going to say "ok then, sit there and watch me do a pile shuffle mid game and this loss of time is on your hands."

[@mannyheart5320]

My question is, if de-clumping or rearranging cards before shuffling & randomizing the deck doesn’t matter, then why bother to de-clump in the first place? If you truly believe it doesn’t matter nor it changes the odds then why are you doing it? I think that’s why it comes off as disingenuous or suss to some.

[@cerogravity8653]

You should not be able to move cards around unless your shuffling your deck, so you can’t move the cards then shuffle your deck, just shuffle your deck the cards will be moved around anyway.

[@bennygroysman4205]

I asked judges about this and as long as you shuffle after it isnt cheating

[@Marcusjnmc]

the thing is, you can also declump on the first 2 riffle shuffles knowing about where the clumped cards are

[@Casualties11]

Another way to think about this is; There are a finite number of possible deck states. Let's just assume there are only 26, so states A to Z. Your deck can only have so many possible states in which every card is ordered somehow. Stacking your deck in any way you like will put your deck at any one of the possible finite states, in this case let's say you completely stack your deck and we call that state A.... As soon as you shuffle, and actually genuinely randomize the deck, you immediately changed the state to one of the other (or possibly the same) states, but you have no idea which one. In fact, it actually doesn't matter which state the deck was in before shuffling, because no many what you do the deck HAS TO BE in one of the possible finite states anyway. It only matters if you influenced the final state during the shuffle to get to some desired one. But given infinite shuffles, your deck will always be in one of the finite possible states before and after, so stacking your deck does nothing to influence the state afterward because, unless you are cheating, you have no idea how the state changed from A to Unknown. But, changing the deck from state A to state F and then to any other random state, is still as random as state A to any random state.

[@bl00by_]

Farfa betrays cardmarket! How could you?!?! You're a european, you're one of us!!!! You were supposed to fight them, not join them!

[@soulstarved4116]

Is there any point to "declumping" if the deck just gets shuffled any way? I mean when I see clumped cards off a search, I'm like oh better shuffle better, so I give it like five extra shuffles.

[@Komodo513]

I suppose in this case the declumping acts as a shortcut, if it really doesn’t make a difference it just saved you 5 extra shuffles.

[@HeyitsCamden]

Lovely work on this one. Had a big stupid smile on my face during the Ace Attorney bit.

[@kiranearitachi]

The ace attorney is fucking gold

[@ericgerald2886]

Okay but consider that artifacts are literally illegal to set in the S/T zone

[@plzcme434]

Why though?

[@thiccupcake]

Effects overcome game mechanics :)

[@Amergal]

I feel like this is a great example of skill differences to be honest. Like apply this too a mirror match and declumping could give you a better chance of not drawing multiple dead copies. Whereas someone who doesn't do that would have a greater issue with drawing multiples of the same card. Just like how you can have 3 copies of a searcher in a mirror but it doesn't matter if one person searches the wrong shit everytime.

[@SpencerCJ]

I declump constantly, the deck is fully shuffled after so ho gives a shit, I'm not more likely to draw that card now

[@firepuppies4086]

It depends on who does it really. If someone is known to keep track of and has a less than healthy sense of competition then they may need a bit more monitoring.

[@SkumleBones]

​@@firepuppies4086 then thats the opponents fault for not cutting shuffling his/hers opponents deck after a shuffle. You are allowed to cut, shuffle a deck after your opponent is done with searching/randomizing their deck.

[@firepuppies4086]

@@SkumleBones issue is, my statement applies to the opponent who is cutting.

[@SkumleBones]

@@firepuppies4086 their are going to be cheaters, but the game literally give you the tools for this specific kind of cheating. If you dont like cheaters dont play these types of games. Just like anything, if you dont pay attention and or look away, thats the moment anyone will need, this is what you mom teaches you so your wallet doesnt get stolen, come on now....Like any law, its not a safeguard....its your responsibility to protect yourself. Nothing you can do about shitty people. All you can do is abuse the tools given to you to safeguard urself, hence .... shuffle the deck, dont trust anyone. But if anything I think its just sad that people have less common sense now.

[@firepuppies4086]

@@SkumleBones ... did you just say not to play the game if you don't like cheaters? That does not look good on the game, if you are at THAT point.

[@profanemagic5671]

The BEST part about this is "Your dekc must be randomized using an accepted shuffling method: riffle, PILE, hindu. Yeah, I'm sorry to tell you, but PILE shuffeling is not randomizing the deck. if you do THAT, that's either illegal, or the people who came up with that section are EXTRAORDINARILY stupid.

[@profanemagic5671]

It's totally possible for 3x the same card ending up right next to each other. The cardboard does not care about the printing on it. Heck, to take it to the absolute extrem: The deck might be in perfectly "stacked" order after you shuffle it. The chances for that are astronomically (and I chose that word for a reason, there's a higher amount of atoms in the universe than there are ways to order a 60 card deck) low, but it CAN happen. "De-clumping" is not cheating if you properly randomize the deck after doing so. BY DEFINITION the card will be at a RANDOM place of the deck anyways, so nobody cares where you put that card before you did so. For that same reason, you'd not HAVE to de-clump at all, it's only your illogical brain telling you that it "feels better" when you do so, which is just a miss-conception of the human brain. We're VERY bad at assuming counter-intuitive things. The best way to visualize that is again, a completely stacked deck. When you build a deck (or at least when I do) I order them by SOMETHING (Creatures, Spells, Lands, in my case) After doing that, I shuffle the deck. The cards wont be in the same place anymore. The logic of calling a player who de-clumps a cheater would be the same logic you'd use to accuse me of cheating because I ordered my deck when I build it. It's absolutely non-sensical.

[@Gilgamesh-em6ru]

Phoenix is probably the same type of judge that would rule your opponent can't chain their shadoll monsters effects if you had Magical Meltdown activated and you super poly'd their monsters away.

[@samihdulkhan]

love the ace attorney template for the debate! good job vlad :)

[@ramzu]

This is such good editing CLAP CLAP Vlad!!!

[@justanotherguy7984]

I swear to god after the dream incident everyone is suddenly an probabilities expert mathematician

[@Noah-hz9cx]

Vlad is doing a great job man. I love this content since I dont have enough time to join them streams anymore (studying etc). I hope this will never end :)

[@jconny65]

i don't understand how that's illegal tho. once you split the cards that are split, you're still shuffling.

[@Tagperson]

This discussion was the Schrödinger’s cat thesis of Yugioh.

[@seancoombs4652]

except for the people that can read, however hard that is

[@Binzob]

I sometimes just pick a card and put it on top lmao. But it is still random as I don't have anyway of knowing what said card is.

[@WeAreStageZero]

I am pretty sure that Dzeef said not to do this in a "your first Tournament" video, which is probably where chat got it from.

[@Jesusistheonlydoor]

Damn Dzeef

[@cherubini_5348]

chat just doesn't understand the word randomized

[@ScrilboBaggins]

Farfa biggest cheater in yugioh history

[@joshuagroom7068]

If the shuffling randomizes the deck, then there's no point in taking that clumped 3 cards and putting them in random places, you're just stalling then. If you're shuffling, then there's no point in declumping them since by your logic they wouldn't be stuck in a clump of 3 after the shuffle. The only reason to do this is to spread them across the deck to increase your chances of not bricking with them. Which... kinda feels like cheating lmao.

[@fazdingo29]

ironically it's the opposite of stalling. farfa wants to lower his chances of bricking with them so he can either shuffle extremely thoroughly to split them up or just declump them which takes way less time

[@guidograndi7285]

Farfa JOKINGLY stacked his deck

[@OtherL]

IrL if I see my cards together after a search I shuffle 3x in hopes of separating them after resolving

[@filluponbread3461]

Wow my comment gave Farfa an excuse to pump out content! POGGERS KEKW monkaW strimer man

[@supershortvids11]

It's not cheating I don't think but if you change the distribution of cards to be non random, a riffle shuffle in general will keep the distribution roughly the same from a mathematical standpoint since riffle shuffles are shit at randomizing stuff. So apparently Yu-Gi-Oh let's you stack legally which is hilarious.

[@dkyu-gi-oh]

Farfa watched on stream a video of a mathematician saying that riffle shuffling 7 times is all you need for a fuller randomized deck of cards.

[@supershortvids11]

@@dkyu-gi-oh Fair point, think I confused overhand and riffle shuffles. If you're legitimately riffle shuffling though there's no point to declumpling since you've fully randomized the deck anyway. So at that point you're looking like you're cheating for no reason.

[@HobbyDad_dy]

The thing about randomness is that you can sometimes have 3 of the same card next to each other. You are making the deck less random by 'declumping'.

[@profanemagic5671]

That would only be true if you did not shuffle the deck after doing so. If you randomize the cards, they WILL be random. It does not matter where you put them. If you stack your entire deck and then shuffle it about 7x , you're good. that's not stacking or "affecting the randomness". Being random is a binary thing. Either it is, or it is not random. You changing the position of cards in the deck PRIOR to that process has no impact on the end-result.

[@thecorbeauxking7342]

Why was this even a debate? The policy docs talk about this EXACT situation and says its fine so long as you randomize after. Anyone who said otherwise clearly didn't read the docs.

[@DiegoGonzalez-zv8jh]

It's not cheating because if you shuffle after it's entirely possible to have another 3 identical cards stacked after shuffling. The people who say it's cheating don't understand randomization. Solving a Rubik's cube and then rescrambling it doesn't mean you're cheating on the second solve. It's randomized again. It may be easier to solve, it may be harder to solve, but it's certainly randomized.

[@King_Of_Games]

It’s about having the deck in a state of being randomized

[@ulrichweiss9912]

You could even argue that by searching the deck and pulling a card, you're affecting card order regardless. Two cards that were separated by a single card are no longer separated until the deck is shuffled. If the deck is adequately shuffled, the order of the cards prior to and during the search shouldn't matter. I can see why some people would have a problem with it, but the argument that it's affecting random chance doesn't hold any water. If you or your opponent shuffle well enough, you're changing the order of the cards to a new randomized state. Now if you want to see how people do cheat during shuffling, there are some pretty notorious examples in MTG.

[@shadowmarez7457]

if someone else Drew 3 Ash back to back they would go "That's Yugioh Bro, that sucks" But when their cards get Clumped together they go "Hold on, Let me De-Clump" ... Like WTF

[@sfsreiq]

No one ever really shuffles their deck properly, so if 3 cards are stuck together, chances are they may still be close to each other after 1 or 2 suffles. No one riffles their yugioh cards, please.

[@jweezy15able]

Rules lawyers: the death of Yugioh. I wish we were back in pre-XYZ's era; rules were still a little dumb but overall mechanics were less complicated and everyone didn't have sticks up their asses.

[@jevonsingletary-alston834]

The DREAM ARGUMENT!! CODER VS PHOENIX

[@chamber8234]

I jokingly *JOKINGLY* stalled for time by placing my deck in alphabetical order after searching

[@matthewanderson7852]

As far as I have always been told its not Illegal. As long as the deck is shuffled and then the final cute is offered to your opponent first.

[@duo1666]

Yeah, it physically could never matter because you need to shuffle and randomize after. It doesnt matter if you stack your deck however you want, your opponent is going to fix that, and it is in their best interest to shuffle properly as a result. The only time not declumping would matter as well is if the deck wasnt properly shuffled, so not doing so should be fine anyway, but habits and optics.

[@vibeace9870]

Here's a better way to think about it, Farfa: why are you declumping 3 of the same card? 3 cards clumped together is STILL a part of a randomized pile and can happen. You're declumping the cards because you feel it'll give you a more homogeneous randomization towards the mean, so you are in fact trying to influence the randomization. In theory it does jack shit at influencing the randomization and is just soothing that compulsive thought of "I can't have 3 of the same card together," but we never achieve true random realistically.

[@SuperNickid]

@Farfa: That is considered cheating according to konami rules, and this is the reason why it is considered cheating, I have test it myself in the past on why it is considered cheating, you resolves an effect to search you don't want to draw a clump of copys of bad card so you seperate them, but when you shuffle guess what happen they are more likely to re-clup when you shuffle after seperated them. Turn out it is legal to stack your deck before shuffling that is what I called legal cheating so that mean it is legal for my oppoent in duel book just to spam the shuffle deck as long as nothing is suppose to be in a certain order?

[@eggzisstenshulldredd1626]

I do believe that is a shufflable offense. THE JUROR HAS SPOKEN!!! But for real, I think that if your deck was already organized to have every copy stacked and if it still is then it is no longer up to chance that you get it. But I believe a coin flip is the most fair resolution. They predict head or tail to get their option of reshuffling or declumping. P.S. MY GOD I LOVE PHOENIX WRIGHT DISCORD DEBATE MEMES 🤣

[@justanoman6497]

There are one of two possibilities: 1. The declumping(or anything else) doesn't do anything meaningful and you should just stop. 2. The declumping(or anything else) does do something, which means the shuffle thereafter is not truly randomized in that the result is affected in a meaningful way, therefore even if you are following the letter of the rule, you are not following the spirt of the rule. Therefore you *are* a cheater, just not necessarily by "law" and you should stop. So while it is inconclusive whether it is cheating or against the rule, what is conclusive is that you should stop. Why argue about the process when the result is the same? Edit: Now, I don't have a problem with this in DB, but it is more of an issue in physical play. Specifically, most physical shuffles are insufficient in terms of randomization in the number of times that are commonly done. It is frankly impractical to shuffle sufficiently whenever a search occurs, especially with the frequency of search in modern play. As such, shuffles are, practically speaking, pseudo-random at best. Clumps not being sufficiently broken apart being one of the effect thereof and the reason why people declump (and, more extremely before matches, weave). As such, the "shuffle" and "randomization" as called by the rule can't actually be done, what is done is a step below. As such, the influence of deck stacking of any sort do carry over. And therefore, it should be considered cheating.

[@ashmanchester2611]

Twitch chat saying that's illegal is stupid, your still shuffling after the fact. Meaning for all you know you just shuffled the cards back together. The "while shuffling", means your arranging your cards to how you want so you have them in a predetermined place after you've shuffled. Moving cards while your searching does not count as you shuffling.

[@Dw7freak]

Declumping isn't really needed as as long as you shuffle well enough, the cards'll be declumped naturally.

[@joaodejesus3762]

Clearly cheating. If you are doing it to give yourself an advantage because you know that manual shuffling isn't perfect randomisation then I don't see how anyone can see this as not cheating. If you truly believed all the shuffling that happens would be true perfect randomisation you wouldn't declump your cards because it would be irrelevant.

[@14etan]

the very act of de-clumping admits that your shuffle isn't random. If your shuffle was random why would you de-clump? Because you know that due to popular shuffle methods clumped cards are likely to stay relatively close to one-another. You are taking an action that gives you an advantage that is not permitted by any of the triggered effects. Cheating.

[@femtohimself71]

compare computer randomization on duel links or legacy of the duelist you NEVER see clumping while searching.

[@jazzerokami2443]

Coder sounds so dead in this video that im not even sure if its him