The Moral Puzzle at the Center of The Last of Us

[@sinlesssoul]

I think the issue is that the 'moral high ground' is lost by the Fireflies when they intentionally refuse to inform Ellie (and also Joel) that the procedure will claim her life. Joel only finds out about it because he pieced it together, and the duplicitous behavior of the Fireflies is what sets him down the violent path of saving Ellie. In many ways, you could say that the narrative is trying to warn about the dangers of lies (even lies by omission). Imagine how different the entire scenario would have been if the Fireflies just told Joel and Ellie from the beginning that the procedure would likely kill her (and that they wouldn't perform the procedure without their consent). This would have given Joel and Ellie time to consider the weight of their choices, and it would have also fostered respect towards the fireflies for being so open and honest about their intentions. Yet by choosing to withhold that information out of fear that Ellie (or Joel) would reject the procedure, they give Joel almost no time to process the full weight of what is happening and force him to make a quick and terrible decision out of pure desperation.

[@abigailslade3824]

Yeah and they also attempt to kick him from their base with no weapons or equipment which is basically a death sentence. Nice reward for completing a mission for them.

[@matthiasthulman4058]

I wonder how different the game would have been if we had to choose whether or not Ellie goes through with the procedure.

[@mikeoxlong6129]

@@abigailslade3824nah not for joel half the time on grounded you wind up with jack shit in your inventory anyway lol. Not that it negates y’alls point at all

[@222oree]

@@abigailslade3824 You forget the part where the fireflies agree to kill joel? right before joel starts shooting them? the reason Joel starts shooting?

[@abigailslade3824]

@@222oree I did, you know how some people can’t handle too much information and I was expecting a backlash from those sort which didn’t come thankfully. Nice point well raised though.

[@Chorongy-]

In that mission after the cannibalism, Ellie is shocked and sad. His way of trying to cheer her up is answering all the questions she asked along the way at which he used scoff. It's not selfish at all, he's doing the best he can to get her to stop thinking about that experience. He's a broken character, a good man who's beyond his limit.

[@neurosophy]

Exactly. Ellie is traumatized, she doesn't want or need someone excavating her past.

[@f.e.areproduce5298]

To be perfectly honest Joel is literally a guy who lost his own daughter in the begining, he was pushed to the point where he likely is one of scariest people in fiction to meet, he had to not only have his child die in his arms at early stages of the apocalypse, he had to watch society collapse arround him, he had to then survive through years of apocalypse and he witnessed some horrors. So saying that he's a good man beyond his limit makes absolute sense.

[@NoirRaven]

He's broken, yes, but that doesn't make any of his actions good. Joel is exceedingly (and imo,) unforgivably selfish and flawed. Had he stopped to pick up the family, his daughter may not have been the one who was shot. Had he made better choices, they wouldn't have lost all the companions they made along the way. Selfishness = evil, every time. Think of others, put yourself second (or last,) be generous, kind and always helpful. Your past does not excuse your current villainy.

[@BoioBoing]

​@@NoirRavenselfishness doesn't always equal evil. Saying that "stopping to help that family at the beginning would have saved his daughter from being shot" can just as easily be countered with "what if the family was infected" or "what if the delay resulted in being swarmed by infected" or "what if it resulted in an even deadlier car crash" "what if the military caught them all and Joel didn't get lucky enough to survive that interaction." Also, he didn't abandon the random family at the beginning because he was selfish, he abandoned the family because he was putting his family first. Not himself, his family. They were at the center of a massive, never seen before crisis. Joel didn't really have the leniency to extend a hand because that meant more people to take care of, and he was barely surviving and caring for the two people he already had. Obviously, it didn't even work out in his favor because Sarah died. But she didn't die because Joel was selfish, she died because of the government's idiotic reaction to survivors. If it were any other day, not a massive outbreak, just a normal drive through the countryside, I'm certain that Joel would have stopped to help that family. They're crossing the country roads in the middle of nowhere, of course he'd give a hand. And we know this because Joel overextended himself in the beginning of the game to help others, the only reason he ended up "selfish" was because of the result of the outbreak. And even then, Joel isn't ever selfish for the most part, he's distant, independent, so he never gets hurt. The only time you could have a good argument for him being selfish is the end of the game where he saves Ellie. At the hospital he ended the Firefly's project at a vaccine. And at the end he lied to Ellie to keep her favor which can be seen as selfish. The rest of the game? Tess? Henry and Sam? He basically said to Tess he was willing to fight and possibly die for her. He made sure Sam was safe when they were stuck together, he made sure the group was safe while on the enemy turf, if he had gone up the truck first there's an argument that can be made about how Joel would've tried pulling Henry up while taking gun shots whereas Henry dropped Joel because of the tank. Selfish people don't do these kinds of things. Selfish people hoard and take and keep and don't let anyone else get close. Joel shared, made sure whoever he was with survived if he had control of it. But he's not perfect, he's broken, he's lonely and closed off. It's not to keep everything for himself, but rather to not let anyone else get close enough and hurt him. It's a very different thing.

[@Bratzismylife]

@@NoirRaveneasy said but if you were put in his situation you wouldn’t know what’s good until it happened to you

[@Ladyoftheroundtable]

I have achieved an understanding of why sarah's death hits so hard in the game. It's the crying. She's not just crying in pain, but fear. It's deeply upsetting. Her voice actress deserves an award if she didn't already get one

[@rhondahoward8025]

For me, it's just the simple fact that she suffers before she dies. Like when Guts stabbed Adonis. His death was not quick. He died crying, and gasping for air, choking on his own blood as Guts held his hand - the only solace he could give to the boy. Compare that to Spear, another character who inadvertently kills a child. It's not nearly as bad (personally) to me, because Spear throws him off of his back and makes him bash his head on a rock, killing the child instantly. In the world of Primal, quick deaths like that are a _mercy._ And in a Viking village, where even children are brought up to carry a sword, there were MUCH worse ways he could've gone down.

[@darvish2776]

Exactly! Those little sounds she makes are so damn realistic and gut wrenching. Voice actor really made that scene cut thru. I’m glad someone called it.

[@connormatthews522]

it's the first thing that stands out eh, she crushes it. i'd argue there aren't many games out there with this tier of acting in them, shit really hits. A lot of games over the years have struck me as great but this is the only story that i found myself thinking about regularly for weeks if not months after, and I think the voice acting is what took it to that place for me.

[@calvinjluther]

I think I would be hard-pressed to distinguish between a girl crying because she suffered an excruciating gut wound and crying because she's afraid of her own mortality.

[@Alatsno]

@@calvinjluther Congratations

[@bryophytemedia]

I’ve never seen someone so efficiently counter their own valid arguments in a previously disected video. This channel is a gift that keeps on giving!

[@dongusmalongus1915]

Go back to the cinema you spiteful mutant

[@Puppy_Puppington]

Devils advocate is always fun and shows that someone is well thought.

[@zenmindgamer]

I think that's what makes discussing Joel so interesting. A discussion of ethics and morality ultimately boils down to what's subjectively important to the people making the argument, and it's why both sides of his character motivations can be argued so well.

[@Nihahahahahas]

Waltuh white

[@uio740]

@@Nihahahahahas Haha funny man

[@DadJokeSamurai]

I think Joel actually cared deeply about Tess. You pointed out the unintentional feeling that slips out when he sees the wound, but I'd argue his behavior toward her in that scene wasn't distance, rather, him trying desperately to be dispassionate and cold, but he can't help how much he feels behind his gruff exterior.

[@crazychase98]

She was his fuck buddy. He just stoic about it

[@dylanc5636]

totally agree, I think that was a total misread of their relationship! lots of little bits of dialogue give clues to the intimacy (not necessarily romantic) of their relationship.

[@rodrigovda]

I think both points are right. He cares about her, but never lets himself admit too much care for her, so when he realizes she's infected, he's conflicted, because he DOES care for her, but he won't admit that to himself to protect him from instances line this. Heck, Tess even says "if there's enough here that you have to feel some sort of obligation to me". She's acknowledging that they are close but neither has ever acknowledged that out of self-preservation. She's the first one to ever verbalize the actual care they have for each other in a last resort attempt to demand Joel to do something "stupid" FOR her. And Joel ends up doing it. For her. Because he cares a lot about her, even if he always was walled up.

[@neltins5308]

Well he cared deeply about her but could not admit it. Tess did know though even though it was completely unspoken. With Ellie though its even more powerful because he admitted it by calling her "Baby girl" at least to himself he admitted it.

[@imsleepy6211]

I think he cared about her as much as he could. When you lose someone you love so much, which he didn’t just lose his daughter, he lost his brother too in a way and that was it for his old life, it becomes really hard to relearn how to get close to someone. I don’t think him being distant was a conscious choice, I think he legitimately did not know how to act any differently. Idk that’s how I saw it. I really do think he loved her (platonically) but just couldn’t be close and maybe she had the same issue and that’s why they worked so well together.

[@Somegoy]

As a father of a 5 year old girl......I played this game before fatherhood, and I found myself thinking Joel did everything a normal father would do. After becoming a father and replaying the game......I am twice as steadfast in my decision. Joel is an actual real man in a broken video game world. The writing of this game is some of the best in any piece of entertainment ever.

[@gusmontemayor3304]

Same here. When this 1st came out I wasn't a father and I remember raging at the screen saying if u don't give me the chance to save her if this is some fixed ending I'm done with this game. As a father to a little girl now. I feel for Joel more than before. It's different when ur a dad.

[@Alien_isolationist]

The kid isn't his. Having 2 kids and a stepkid I can honestly say, it's definitely not the same. I wouldn't think twice about taking a bullet for my kids.... Anyway, I think it's kinda selfish and weird he chose Ellies life, over the lives of 3 billion remaining humans, leaving those monsters to roam the globe but that's just me. Really good on PS5 👍🏻

[@Alien_isolationist]

Also the black guy taking his own life because his brother was bit was weird to me too, that writing was trash, again, another over the top drama queen scenario over a kid that's not his child. I can understand being upset, but sh00ting yourself in the head over it was unrealistic. Bill's magazine was a weird touch too. Otherwise the game was one of my favorites, I actually just beat it this week for the first time on ps5. I don't think it would hold a candle to say, Metal Gear Solid if they did a faithful PS5 remake, or FF 7 remake but that's just me 🤷🏻

[@sardonicus1739]

@@Alien_isolationist I feel terrible for your stepkid now that you openly admit your favoritism towards your biological kids. All that says to me is you think your dna is more important than any other, and that you can't grow as attached to someone if they aren't genetically related to you. That just sounds narcissistic tbh. As someone with an adopted kid and a biological child, I love her just as much and unconditionally as the other kid, and wouldn't be able to pick between them, and my stepfather did the same to me. A love for a child has nothing to do with how much they're related to you, and if you really feel that way I pity you biological kids for being loved for such a petty reason as being related to you, and your stepkid for never being able to earn the same love based around something completely out of their control.

[@Alien_isolationist]

@@sardonicus1739 the fact you would let millions of people d!3 and 3 billion remaining people left on earth suffer for your step kid seems selfish and narcissistic

[@gatling216]

The key here really is the Fireflies. I just beat the game this evening and was ranting to some friends about how the ending sort of betrayed the core thesis of the game. Had the Fireflies come off as even marginally less shady and a little more competent, then Joel’s decision to save Ellie would have been a lot more questionable. Instead, we see from their notes that they have no idea what they’re doing. It almost feels like they’re psyching themselves up for this big sacrifice because they NEED it to mean something. Yeah, it’s bad science, but the writers could have hand waved it to hint that it might have worked. But they didn’t. Then there’s the way they treated Joel and Ellie. There was no informed consent from Ellie. If she was given the choice, I think she would have sacrificed herself. That’s just who she is. And much like Tess, if Joel was given a chance to talk with her, he would have honored her choice. The whole thing could have been avoided. Instead, they try to bully a man who fought his way across the country with a teenage girl to look after, and expect him to just walk away. Joel lying to Ellie was bad, yes. I would argue indefensible. Buuuut cutting through the Fireflies like a hot knife through butter felt entirely justified. Hell, I would argue necessary. Even if I cared nothing for Ellie, I wouldn’t trust humanity’s last best hope to that lot.

[@DOT107]

not to mention that the Lie Joel tells Ellie, knows its a lie, hell her accepting it is pretty much a confirmation that she didn't wanna die and want to spend the rest with Joel.

[@dragonstormx]

I don't think the game's writers really considered how the Fireflies are a bunch of idiots. All the information we find on their actions says that destroy all the touch and the world would frankly be better off without them. But we are supposed to see them as people with good intentions who could do good things if Joel didn't kill them all. Given how stupid the Fireflies are, intentionally depicting them as morons who are deluding themselves into thinking that they are saving the world makes more sense. They do not have the infrastructure or resources to distribute a vaccine even if they could create one, and their dumb methods mean they wouldn't be able to, and they are in a losing war. I hope the show takes the route, because they don't work the way the game presents them.

[@mremu4358]

They patched this up now, but apparently, at some point in the last level, you could find a tape that explains that they'res more people like Ellie. Technically speaking, Joel wasn't lying. Now true, the fireflies were still around even after our blood rage, but it was pretty much toast. We don't see many scientists left or any depending on who all you left alive in the operating room, so he could have really thought they'd stop looking since the scientists appeared to be done for. However I'd still say he wasn't truly honest, but given the context and the words from an old Master "It's true from a certain point of view"

[@sliceofzura]

How does the ending betray the core thesis of the game?

[@danielpridemore3997]

I feel like the intended size and scale of the Fireflies wasn't fully articulated in the game which reinforced the sense of incompetency you highlighted, at least not until actually encountering them toward the end. Part II and the HBO show help amend that issue but still not to the extent where they even have a shot of preventing the cordyceps, they still seem like an ineffective revolutionary militia

[@sunnie3234]

the reasoning for joel not asking ellie about her past isnt because he was just “trying to find any daughter”. its because he probably knows what its like to be asked questions you arent ready to share yet, and possibly by just sharing things without her asking/when she asks would give her more inclination, and feel more comfortable sharing her past with him.

[@zero1188]

Same thing i thought. It was as simple as joel been holding in his emotions for 20 years, of course he going to make it about himself. Has nothing to do with ellie

[@unappealingairbender]

Thank you, this video was great but nearer the end Brett lost me talking about Joel's selfish nature of "Just wanting any daughter to dump his trauma on"

[@Laurel_Ellenstreet]

Joel knows Ellie is dealing with layers of trauma and is not going to be invasive. David, the losses on their journey, on top of what he'd deduce to have been an unimaginable trauma to be bitten and not turn. Opening up a little in the meantime is a good move. Joel has a tendency to positively change his behavior without comment. (I think his lack of reciprocal questions, at least in our hearing, is probably a benign writing omission in a narrative that is just more Joel-centric and they didn't make the time for Ellie's backstory till Left Behind, but that's not in-universe.) It's a common and baffling accusation (30 min in) that Joel just wants some kid, any kid to play a role in his life. I just don't see how one can observe the indelible presence that is Ellie and entertain Joel thinking of her as a placeholder. (Well that's not true. I can see how it's a tempting interpretive framework. I just rings hugely false to me watching them interact.) Joel wants Ellie to have a future. (TBF the show articulates more clearly Joel's concern for Ellie's missed childhood and general well-being, as well as having him pay attention to her interests.) Talking about his past with Sarah is an inherently complicated dynamic. New kids after you lose one, it's always going to be potentially fraught. (Ideally Joel would over time overcome his avoidant attachment type to make it clear he's not comparing but connecting. Ideally.) The "he's comparing / replacing" interpretation is probably tempting if you're looking to deconstruct, but Joel's memories are also a way to invite Ellie into the family.

[@DLxxx]

@@unappealingairbender That was literally only a minute long tangent that he himself said wasn't a watertight reading (and went on to explain why). If the the entire end of the video lost you just because of that, then.. I dunno, that just comes off as dismissive and narrow-minded. In the end, we don't know for sure what Joel was trying to achieve in that moment, or how his emotions were effecting him. Just because this analysis doesn't perfectly align with your own opinion, is no reason to write it off or lose interest in his other points afterward. To be honest though, this is more of a general response to a lot of the comment I see on this channel, and not entirely about yours in particular. There are just an alarming number of people here who don't even discuss or acknowledge the vast majority of points he makes in his analysis, and instead harp on something they don't like about the media being discussed, or bring up "counterpoints" I response to the title of the video, rather than what's in it (ex. An analysis about Baldur's character is mostly met with thousands of comments saying that "Freya is the real villain! She sucks because X, Y, and Z", instead of actually talking about Baldur's character and his choices/mistakes). It comes off as bizarrely hostile, dismissive, narrow-minded, or sometimes just comepletely unrelated to the content of the video. It irks me, only because so much effort, care, and love clearly goes into making these as quality as they are, but it’s never appreciated, because all people tend to do is hyper fixate on a small error (often not that consequential to the point being discussed) that "justifies" them attacking his work, or ranting about a point that wasn't even discussed. The Fireflies having the "moral highground" isn't even part of the analysis, which is focused strictly on Joel's character, yet that's the top comment (on almost every Last of Us analysis on the channel). Why?

[@thisguy8106]

29:36 Everyone always talks about the "baby girl" and rightfully so, but it's Ellie's "Joel.." right after he says it that rips my heart out every single time.. 💔

[@demonwolf570]

I stand by Joel not being horrible. Joel wasn't a good person by any stretch of the imagination but by the standards of the times, he's decent. He doesn't actively seek out people to steal from and Kill unless they attack first or if he's desperate. The Fireflies were a group of crazy nut jobs pretending to play the hero to make themselves feel good and justify their shitty actions. From blowing up a checkpoint with civilians at it, to knocking out a man trying to give CPR to a girl, to sending Joel out to die without his gear they are definitely the villains of this game no matter how you slice it. I dare anyone to make a rational case for them killing Ellie. Like those 3 doctors were gonna make any vaccine and somehow mass produce it with dirty ass tools and expired drugs, lol.

[@wavemasterxyra1630]

Exactly. Making the vaccine would require so much more than the Fireflies are capable.

[@Wapnep]

Joel literally admits that he used to ambush people and kill innocents.

[@demonwolf570]

@@Wapnep The Fireflies haven't killed innocents? I must have imagined those bombs then and the attack on military soldiers.

[@dongusmalongus1915]

Go back to the cinema you spiteful mutant

[@courirnorte8137]

the fireflies seem LESS worse than the military, who were far more ruthless than the firelfies

[@dannyhernandez112]

As a father myself, I can tell you that I would do the same thing Joel did, especially with how shady the fireflies are. Call it being selfish but there is no guarantee they would’ve even found a cure. Her death could have just as easily been meaningless. I would’ve given her a chance at having a life of her own.

[@kimberlyh.1090]

There was especially no guarantee of them finding a cure using Ellie, considering the 'Surgeon' was a Biologist with a Bachelor's (Jimmy Anderson, on The Last of Us Wiki). Not a Virologist or Epidemiologist to manufacture the vaccine, or a Neurosurgeon to remove Ellie's Cordyceps, but a...Biologist. Ellie might've been the guarantee for a cure, but if the people responsible to create the aren't qualified/up to the task, then what's the point? /r

[@dannyhernandez112]

@@kimberlyh.1090 Agreed

[@ChrisGoldie]

thats the thing, that wasnt his daughter 😂 joel was just as selfish in his actions as the fireflies and since both ended up lying atleast ellie chose to try with the fireflies

[@Benjammin0629]

@@ChrisGoldie Clearly you missed the part where he started to see her as his adoptive daughter. She didn't need to be of his blood for him to make the choice.

[@aperson4640]

You don't know if Ellie's death could have just as easily been meaningless. You and Joel don't understand the science. Only the doctors do and they seem confident in success. So you're just claiming it's a 50-50 chance to make yourself feel better about how you would choose regardless. It's a choice many would make but it's more honest just to admit that even if you were 100% certain it would work you would still selfishly let the world burn to save your own child, instead of deluding yourself into believing you were morally correct.

[@hunterweeks6091]

My guess is no one would even think twice about forgiving Joel's choice if he were Ellie's real father. Parents lie all the time. You have to constantly choose between honesty and lies depending on what keeps your child safe in each scenario. Emotional safety is important too, but you can't tell me you honestly believe a parent should take their child's opinion and choice into consideration when it could result in their immediate death.

[@Morten_Storvik]

That entirely depends on the situation.

[@Charnel_Heart]

It's not just the immediate death of the child though, it's the consequences for every other human being on earth. It's the potential damnation of mankind for the sake of one girl, but ultimately for Joel's own guilty conscience, that makes it a selfish act. Adoptive parent or biological.

[@richardbarton5910]

​@@Charnel_Heartthe thing is the consequences doesn't matter at all when a father what's to protect there daughter blood or not to Joel Ellie is his daughter and like any good parent he choose her over the world I would make the same choice if I was him damn the world.

[@Charnel_Heart]

@richardbarton5910 if you would burn the world for the sake of one child then you shouldn't have children. That is a perfect example of selfish and monstrous behavior.

[@richardbarton5910]

@@lrsb1678 well she was suffering survivers guilt and she was a miner she couldn't consent to the surgery because of her age

[@Nevermindless415]

I find it interesting how Joel(father figure) and Marlene(mother figure) both support one of the core motivations Ellie. That being companionship and purpose, but neither will allow her to choose between the two. This is because they’re afraid of her choosing one that doesn’t support their needs.

[@The1andonlysharpshooter]

Ah humans and their inbuilt selfish needs. What would we do without them.

[@zacharyyoung3834]

Great point. Would have been driven home a little better if they explored the relationship between Marlene and Ellie a little more

[@basicsimp8798]

But Part 2 shows Ellie would have gone through with it regardless. Plus one girl Vs a potential cure for a plague that's been devastating humanity, even just potential cure is a risk worth taking. Marlene spared Joel, and pleaded with him merciful. She could have just killed him and get Ellie back in the operation table but she tries to reason with him. Marlene and Joel both had attachments to Ellie but only Marlene was able to look pass her own feelings, in sight of the greater good. Then we have Joel who even admits he would do it all over again. Remind you, during that time in The Last of Us 2, Ellie wanted her life to mean something, to give her own life, but Joel basically said I don't care what you feel, I'll do it all again.

[@dongusmalongus1915]

Go back to the cinema you spiteful mutant

[@pain002]

@@basicsimp8798 Marlene didn't shoot Joel for the same reason the firefly soldiers didn't shoot Joel. The slightest chance of hitting the girl who carries the cure is not worth it. And even if you ask modern doctors about the decision one innocent girls sacrifice is one too much. There is a doctors code and abbys dad (sorry not sorry) is morally tainted and no amount of zebra saving is going to change that

[@romanodimm]

Honestly, I've always interpreted the ending differently. Let's take a look at the scene in the car. Joel says: "There is no cure, the Fireflies let us go. I'm sorry." And Ellie does not answer this in any way, she just turns away. Next is the scene in which Joel makes a promise to Ellie. Just look at Ellie's facial animation after the words "I promise". I think the actress and animators made it pretty clear that Ellie doesn't believe Joel. She knows that what he says is more or less a lie. She knows that he doesn't tell her something. But what does Ellie say to Joel? "Okay". Joel lied to her face, she knows it, but she accepts the lie. Why? I think because she realizes that she wants to live happily with Joel. Joel gives her this opportunity, and she grabs it. She kind of says to herself, "He's hiding something, but he's making it possible for us to live together without any worries, so I'll take it." The sequel, of course, refutes this, because there Ellie is shocked that Joel lied to her, so I consider these scenes solely in the context of "The Last of Us", without a sequel

[@miller-joel]

The retcons in "part II" are garbage.

[@VioletAeonSnowfield]

I don't know what you're talking about there is no sequel. There is only Part 1. Kinda odd they called it that, considering its a complete story with no sequel or need for a sequel, but whatever.

[@miller-joel]

@@VioletAeonSnowfield What is "part 1"?

[@eainjones9509]

I always saw it as Ellie knowing Joel was lying, but trusting his judgement because of the time they had spent together. She knows Joel is competent and has Ellie's best interests in mind. The fireflies are super sketch, and Joel has little trust for them to begin with. Taking his equipment away, refusing to let him see Ellie, and telling him to fuck off completely set me off. I didn't trust the fireflies as a player at that point.

[@miller-joel]

@@eainjones9509 At the end of the original story, Ellie clearly knows Joel is lying, but she doesn't even know what he's lying about, or how the Fireflies also lied to her, and were going to kill her. Joel haters love to call him "selfish," but Marlene would never have sacrificed anything for Ellie. Joel did. And again, what were the "doctor's" qualifications? Where and when did he get his degree? Joel was not the only one to distrust the Fireflies. They were also a joke to Tommy, and he knew then as well as anyone. Even the Firefly researcher at the university considers their obsession with a "cure" a joke. But the Joel haters will never acknowledge any of that. They just ignore it.

[@blameyourlag9455]

I think the point Druckmann and Straley are trying to make with the fireflies in the game is that the fireflies are just like every other group in the wasteland. They're ruthless, disorganized, and overall incompetent. They are a group that is stuck in the past, trying to bring back a world that is long gone. I mean think about it, Joel travelled the ENTIRETY of the United States just to get this girl to the fireflies and what do they give him? Absolutely nothing, I mean how in the living hell is that not completely ruthless? From Joel's perspective it is a no-brainer to save Ellie. Ellie is essentially his daughter at this point and he finally has a sense of purpose in his life after twenty years of surviving through torture. The possibility of a cure being spread by a group that is already under resourced and not doing well is quite unlikely, and even if they did get the cure, would they even spread it. They have already shown how ruthless they can be and having a cure would make them a #1 target by anyone to get that cure. Ellie had no clue going in she was going into die and neither did Joel.

[@FormerGovernmentHuman]

They are literally a terrorist group hiding under a cloak of self righteousness and delusional idealism who’s actions never align with what they preach. It’s insane to me how many people fall for their shit.

[@Hayden_Lummus]

Completely agreed! I've been saying this for a while now: The Fireflies are no different than the cultish groups we meet throughout the first game, and even the second game. Abbeys dad doesn't offer scientific proof that killing Ellie will create a cure. He just asks Marlene to "buy in." And that's exactly what cult leaders want their followers to do. To buy in to what they are saying you must do.

[@RunRecoverRally]

That's a big point that a lot of people don't realize. According to Part II, yes the Fireflies has a competent medical staff headed by a surgeon that can possibly make the vaccine a reality. The only issue is what comes after that? Throughout the game, we see the lack of control the Fireflies have over the USA. From the multitude of Firefly pendants to the deserted Firefly lab at the college in Colorado, we see the Fireflies have very limited presence. The majority of human threats Joel & Ellie face are splinter groups of Hunters. The Fireflies waning presence and control suggests they don't have the capabilities, influence, and infrastructure to distribute this "cure."

[@mariannefischer3613]

FatBrett provides a key insight here. The writers did not provide the viewer with enough information, of a sufficiently believable science, to believe that the firefly doctor is the one and only doctor in the country who is capable of crafting an effective therapy, nor that the broken down resources of that clinic are sufficient to make the therapy, nor that Ellie is the one and only immune person in the country to be the source for what is required, nor that the only way to obtain that material is that it is necessary to kill her. I realize now that I came away from this story doubting all four of those propositions. And Joel could also reasonably doubt those propositions. Furthermore, the writers did not give the viewer or Joel any reason, given the reality of that world, to trust those people in even small matters, let alone with the life of his daughter. The fireflies effectively taking Ellie at gunpoint confirms the doubts.

[@dream6562]

Idk it was enough for me to buy it in one

[@raw6668]

Another point is the Fireflies were also conveyed they were desperate people driven to act. That they made soo many mistakes that brought them to their lowest point that they clung to this one last hope to save themselves, made even better for it promises to save the world as well. A hope that may not be real. Do we assume they had a cure and save the world despite all the science and their own history saying it is likely impossible or even possible they are not competent enough to do to succeed? Or do we assume they deluded themselves into thinking they could make a cure? And through said delusion, their leader was willing to kill her friend's daughter to save the Fireflies and prevent its death.

[@dream6562]

@@raw6668 they may be onto something but the thing is since ellie was the only non infected they knew we don't know how much research they had a solid grasp of vs how much was theoretical

[@raw6668]

@@dream6562 I thought there were others that they already killed (though they were not confirmed as Ellie was). Also, that is another assumption they made. Ellie has an actual cure. Instead of a dormant fungus that would eventually kill her. I mean there were strands that are dormant in ants to suddenly activate to maximize infection in a colony. It could be producing serialized offspring until its ready to spread its infection.

[@dream6562]

@@raw6668 no I'm pretty sure that they mentioned she was the only one they were aware of that was immune

[@mick-ericboettge8683]

31:10 that's actually them making decisions together, when you put it in context. She says they'll go wherever he wants next right after Joel says THEY can go wherever THEY want instead of going to the fireflies, but Ellie says she really wants to go there now, so after they go where he really wants. Like taking turns deciding where to eat or go on vacation. It's actually a pretty healthy, fair relationship at that point.

[@jefffrederick258]

I haven't watched the video yet. But I love how, in the discussion of Joel, everyone bloody forgets that the living Mcguffin, Ellie, is infected with a bloody fungus! Something that needs a specific environment to survive and thrive. Killing Ellie kills the Firefly's best chance at a cure. Because killing Ellie kills the ecosystem the fungus thrived in. Doing this forces the Firefly's to either: - Rush to study Ellie and the spore samples as quickly as possible before decomposition sets in with Ellie. And the fungus and its spores die. - Transplant the Zombie creating spores to a new host. We know how well that usually goes for everyone that isn't Ellie. The Firefly's only real play would have been to keep Ellie alive. And essentially use her as a lab rat. Taking a biopsy of the spores, letting her heal, studying what they have, rince and repeat. If this happened then you could argue Joel is a monster. But there current plan - kill Ellie to get to the Spores... It may be debatable if Joel is a monster. But he absolutely saved Ellie's life that day in more ways than she could imagine. All because the Firefly's were about to throw the baby iut with the bathwater.

[@crazyinsane500]

This kinda shows how the first game was really well written in terms of it's story/setting integration. Time and again you find notes that show the Fireflies are aimless terrorists who's main goal is just "oppose FEDRA." Meanwhile FEDRA are just kinda. . . Existing? FEDRA at least has infection scanners, which shows they DO have R&D teams working on dealing with the fungus, unlike the Fireflies who have a single (retconned) veterinarian. So take a step back and look at the Fireflies' goal with that context. They, who simply want to get one over on FEDRA, want to kidnap Ellie, who was already in the care of FEDRA, and take her far away from FEDRA territory to kill her. If they wanted a cure, they would've turned her over to FEDRA. The story is telling us The Fireflies were willing to doom humanity's chance at developing a way to develop antifungals for no other reason than their petty grudge. But because it's not explicit, people who don't think don't clue into that.

[@SageOfLimitlessHands]

Sounds like you went to school with that kind of knowledge. Thank you for pointing this out

[@bertellijustin6376]

Cutting up a child to save ourselves……even if she survives…..we wouldn’t be on the side of the Angels. That’s some evil shite no matter how you frame it. Children even in an apocalypse…are not lab rats.

[@starwantrix5324]

Exactly what I was thinking when I played the game, I paused when Marlene said that they need to extract cordyceps. I mean the whole game when we kill infected, cordyceps dies as well, we don't see the infected that we kill get all covered in mushrooms and spreading spores, mushrooms start growing on infected that were wandering for a loong time and they turn into clickers, but dead infected don't suddenly get up and continue surviving. Kill the brain, kill the mushroom. So, by that logic, killing Ellie would be killing cordyceps that they wanted. That's the moment I unpaused and decided to kill everyone, not that there was a different option, I found out that you don't get to choose, Joel already has his choice, which coincidentally aligns with mine

[@kj12351]

The best chance would be for Ellie to have kids. It's flat out evolution doing it's thing.

[@Judge_of_Anubis05]

It really never made sense to me as to why they needed to scoop out her brain. The fungus moves to the brain through the nervous system, right, so wouldn't there be cordyceps in her spinal fluid? Why not extract samples from her through spinal taps? She lives, and you have a constant source of fungus to work with. Also, I think the fireflies not telling Joel or Ellie was them not planning to give them a choice either way for Ellie to begin with. I think it was for the fireflies a means to have a massive power play to hold a cure over people and them not even having a good means of distribution anyway. I know it's claimed they did other tests to see if if they could keep her alive but it still all seems very strange

[@miller-joel]

Answer: Because the Fireflies were incompetent butchers. They were in a hurry to kill the only immune person in the world. And they didn't even know the difference between a fungus and a virus.

[@ewancarey5847]

Try not to look too deep into it lol, it gets worse when you realise any "cure" they could produce would effectively entail intentionally infecting people with ellies version of the infection, effectively surrendering themselves to potential mutations, and long term effects of having a mushroom in your brain. (which we still don't know yet). Best case scenario mild epilepsy, worst case and you turn everyone you cure into another zombie. @Im_Chris _P

[@miller-joel]

@@ewancarey5847 The geniuses who keep repeating the mantra that "Joel sacrificed mankind" don't even understand that the "doctor" was not even a doctor. Thinking is not their forte.

[@AzureScintillae]

@@miller-joel ngl, after 20 years in an apocalypse. The chance of making a cure is a complete 0 from their lack of equipment, knowledge, expertise and immune subjects to keep going. 20 years, most of the brightest minds had already died in the start of the outbreak. Either through infection or FEDRA gunning them down. They lack the skills to survive like most civilians. Sometimes there are those who would even deceive people that they are more important, like take Fallout: New Vegas for example (sorry if I spoiled it.) There’s a person with a labcoat in the solar power plant called: Helios 1, and the organisation called the NCR believed that he can get it working. But that person is just all talk, can’t walk and leeches off to survive than die in the wasteland. So in otherwords, Joel didn’t sacrifice mankind. Rather he sacrificed a wacko organisation to save Ellie and to live their life. Most of everyone in TLOU is fixated on surviving than living which lead to them being unsustainable and became raiders, fanatics and tyrants. Therefore Joel did the right choice, the best choice of all choices.

[@miller-joel]

@@AzureScintillae Explain that to the people who don't get it.

[@lauryners]

I see joel not asking for ellie’s past as a way of him waiting for her to tell him on her own terms since he didn’t want to be pushed to revealing. he doesn’t want to do the same to her

[@CajunKhajiit]

The biggest problem here, and an additional reason to not condemn Joel for his actions at the end, is that Ellie was never given a choice. She was sedated and the fireflies were ready to perform life ending surgery on her without any consent. As we find out later, the surgeon that sparks Abby's quest for revenge explicitly makes the choice to do this surgery without ever requesting consent from the patient. In all likelihood, Ellie would have gladly given her life for a chance at a cure, but we will never know for sure. Neither did Joel. And after protecting her over a year-long journey, he would actually be earning the 'monster' label if he did nothing and let Ellie die.

[@oronk60]

Don't forget that Ellie is only 14 years old. She's not mature enough to make a decision that heavy, age of consent laws exist for a reason, she could've been manipulated by Marlene, who knows? Even if Ellie said yes I'd still be on Joel's side, maybe just slightly less adamantly.

[@Capex567]

whether it was with consent or not is not the point but rather is a littler girls life more important than the millions of others kind of situation. also in the second game she blatantly admitted that she would have wanted to sacrifice herself either way.

[@brodude7194]

@@lrsb1678 Na she didn't the only choice was to shoot or let her die. Giving Ellie the choice was off the table.

[@spotry]

In response to your statement about Joel opening up all about himself but not talking about Ellie's past much, I think that was just the moment that the dam finally broke. Ellie's constant attempts to tear down his emotional barriers finally worked and Joel, who hasn't actually talked about his past to anyone in 20 years, just lets it all out in a stream of stories and experiences. I don't think he wanted to weigh down Ellie with his emotional baggage, it's more that he finally started opening up and it all just came out suddenly. Of course, you could be right and he just wanted someone else to share the burden but it honestly seems he was excited in a way to finally be telling someone about his experiences. Edit: forgot to mention in the original message but, great video as always. I like being able to hear another opinion on matters, especially when the person with the different opinion has much better writing skills than me

[@reservoirfrogs2177]

Not to mention that no matter how stoic you project yourself, share enough time and trauma and you'll let those barriers down

[@pain002]

And I remember the university specifically Ellie was extremely interested in his stories, asking excitedly about his wife, Sarah, where even now open minded Joel stopped her with "ok. Too much"

[@Brian_S_O_Tuireann]

And Ellie just had gone through a traumatic experience herself, and was still processing it. So it wasn’t that she wasn’t interested anymore in opening up to Joel, it was just a difficult moment. But that ultimately helped to keep her going.

[@michaelrowlett1802]

I'm sure Kratos would have made the same decision as Joel. In GOW4, Kratos technically lied by omission about the final prophecy. Although both of their motives stem from selfish love, it is to protect someone else. Great video.

[@kamalalsb7292]

Naaah. I think it's different with Kratos, because the only thing telling Atreus about that prophecy would have done at that time would have hurt him. There was no imperative for Atreus to know in that moment. And Kratos is a very different person to Joel in as much as, if he had to kill a bunch of people to save Atreus in a way that WAS selfish - he would have just flat out told him. His whole arc was in part about how keeping secrets from his son was BAD for his son.

[@Blitzwaffen]

@@kamalalsb7292 To build on this Kratos is Greek, and a lot of Greek prophecy stories involve the person knowing a prophecy and trying to subvert it only to fulfill the prophecy in another way. If anything Kratos has no issue if his son kills him, his issue is if his son kills him without a means to survive on his own after it happened. To that end he omitted the prophecy and trains Atreus so that if that prophecy is fulfilled his son can survive without him.

[@kamalalsb7292]

@@Blitzwaffen exactly. I personally come down on the idea that what Joel did was motivated purely by selfishness - the question of "could the Fireflies have actually made a cure with Ellie's body" is less important than "Would Joel have done any different if he'd known for sure they could", and the answer there I feel is no. He lied to Ellie ultimately for himself. I don't think this makes him iredeemable or anything but his motivations WERE selfish, he was acting in HIS best interest, not Ellies. The comparison to Kratos isn't great because regardless of whether or not Kratos was right to lie by omission to Atreus about the prophecy - his choice to do so was because he genuinely believed Atreus not knowing was best for ATREUS, not himself. If Atreus knew that Kratos was supposedly going to die, ALL of his attention would have been focused on preventing Kratos' death. But if Atreus DIDN'T know, Kratos could quietly teach him to survive without him, and spare him the pain and anxiety of thinking his dad was going to die. It's totally different to what Joel did here - because he disregarded Ellie's right to choose, the same as the Fireflies. Ellie makes it fairly clear that she... kinda is fine with dying, and expects it's pretty inevitable given the way the world is. She'd be happier dying thinking it was for a good cause than spending her life worrying about dying from some random act of violence - and while the Fireflies didn't give her a choice either, Joel KNEW by that point what she would have said if they HAD asked her. And then lied because he knew she'd leave if he told her what he'd done.

[@Dtctr010]

@@kamalalsb7292 Well put; your response is my sentiments exactly

[@dongusmalongus1915]

Go back to the cinema you spiteful mutant

[@BangingMash]

YES, he was right, and that’s why Part 2 doesn’t work. Fireflies didn’t give Ellie a choice, they wanted her brain whether she wanted to do the procedure or not. That’s removal of personal freedom, and didn’t even let her ‘father’ see her or say goodbye, and instead tried to march him out of the building without the promised payment under threat of being shot. All on the basis of a “maybe”, i.e no guarantee they can produce a cure even if Joel let them take Ellie. Also, who’s to say they have pure intentions. “We have a cure but you gotta do exactly what we say or you won’t get it” kind of mentality?

[@cd1772]

Part 2 works because it wasn’t a random group of firefly’s that went after Joel. It was Ellie’s would-be surgeon’s daughter. Logic hardly plays a role in the blind rage of wrath and revenge

[@BangingMash]

@@cd1772 Trying to paint Joel’s actions in a bad light is silly for the aforementioned reasons, they kill him off in the first hour or two of the game which was a poor writing decision, not to mention bordering on false advertising given the trailers prior to release. Not to mention half of the game is spent trying to make the audience sympathise with characters who are undeserving of sympathy. Forget it. Hopefully the TV show does a better job of it then this dumpster fire.

[@cd1772]

@@BangingMash Hahaha, Joel deserves no more sympathy than Abby does. The writer’s biggest mistake was assuming that their target player base would have the maturity to understand nuanced issues and the ability to see thing’s from another’s point of view. They really, really fucked up and gave way too much credit to the general public

[@jacksonacosta7264]

@@BangingMashJoel is a murderer who killed innocent people prior to the fireflies. Part 2 isn’t about trying to tell you Joel was wrong saving Ellie. It’s telling you that Joel isn’t the only selfish person who’d kill for family. As Joel, Abby, Ellie, and Tommy do this. I agree with Joel’s decision. But your lack of understanding part 2 is sorta embarrassing

[@BouncingZeus]

@@jacksonacosta7264 The biggest issue with part 2 will always be they kill Joel, then try to make you care about his killer. It was stupid. All of the trying to humanize and make you care for Abby falls flat. It would have worked better if you started with Abby and her story. Kill Joel at the midpoint of the story.

[@bladudemovies]

Sara died for “the greater good,” yet accomplished nothing. When the same reasoning was being presented to Joel for his new daughter Ellie, he resolves to stop it. For if Ellie should die, Joel’s world would die too. Thus, saving Ellie is the only way he can save himself.

[@kxd13flow]

Is 'the greater good' the stop of the infection the military was trying to do when they shot her?

[@sacredbeastzenon]

In my mind it's simpler for Joel. The first reason is that he's betrayed by The Fireflies. They don't pay him for transporting Ellie, and they steal his gear only to throw him out into the outside world. This is a death sentence. The biggest reason is that Joel doesn't believe sacrificing Ellie's life for a possible cure/vaccine is worth it. I agree with him. What does a cure change? Humans and infected will still kill you. Lastly, The Fireflies are terrorists. They won't hand a cure out to everyone, but just their allies.

[@Micheal93k]

Exactly it was a selfish decision

[@sacredbeastzenon]

@@Micheal93k Why?

[@lassoc6301]

@@sacredbeastzenon because it only benefits him and completely abandons the rest of the human race

[@pinkskie5536]

I think the biggest blindspot this essay has is in regards to the Fireflies. The idea of them as humanity's last, best hope is something that falls deeply flat. The painting of them as innocent victims of Joel's rage, too, falls flat. To be willing to kill children, on a hail mary, for something that may not work, is not something a group of fine, innocent people do; but desperate survivors like anyone else. They betray Joel and Ellie through their actions, and that alone is a reason not to trust them to do everything they claim to be capable of. We already see through the writer's lens that every group can lie, cheat, steal, kill and more. Why are the Fireflies exempt from that capacity; why are we expected to believe them when we are shown that there are so many others that can't be trusted? Another aspect of it is with Joel's relationship with Ellie. Ellie has been nothing but forthcoming to him; in his big moment of opening up to her, I feel that it's him evening the playing field; meeting her in the middle. She's constantly been reaching out to him; sharing her joys and fears, and he is the one that has denied that hand; so him sharing himself and opening up to her reads, really, like him accepting every previous attempt she had made. With that read, I think it's fair to say that it's his responsibility, in that setting, to share of his own experiences without implying that it ought to be transactional.

[@kldawson53]

I cannot understand anyone who thinks anything positive about the Fireflies or any human in TLOU universe. Everyone's humanity is completely gone to the point where Joel's decision to save Ellie us really the only humanist thing that happens in this game. (The lying is bad, but the decision to save her was moral, IMHO.) The fact that all of these groups find it more productive to kill each other rather than coordinate to take out (burn, poison, whatever) the infected and fungal spores let's you know that absolutely all hope for humanity is lost in this world and it really is every man for himself. Anyhow, that's just my opinion.

[@cachalote8311]

I feel like people forget one simple factor. The Fireflies are enemies of Fedra, and Fedra views the Fireflies no different. what do you think would happen should one side create a cure? War. Suddenly one side gains immense power by holding the cure. And they get to chose who gets cured and who doesn't. And in this world, in which the fireflies and Fedra are already at war, it would escalate. And who would be caught in the middle of it? The regular folk who is trying to live another day. People see Fedra bad and Fireflies good. Mostly because we see Fedra's actions at the start of the game and the Fireflies are the ones trying to cure (only because they have one example of a infection survivor in Ellie). As I see it, the world went to shit, people included. It's every man for himself. If you have to pick between your loved ones or a stranger, who would you pick?

[@Joshpower57]

@@kldawson53 they treat the fireflies as just "the cure". It's very odd because it's a complete appeal to authority. They are just extremely desperate people who were like "we will do anything we can, to find the cure, even sacrifice children". This essay is still a very bitter devil's advocate and keeps treating what Joel did as horrific, but what the fireflies were going to do as "necessary". Just because the fireflies selfish choice benefits humanity if it works.

[@Galilelo_Telescope]

I don't think all the things about the fireflies being shady matters because it didn't matter to Joel. Everything could have been perfect, they could have been positive that a cure was imminent. Joel still wasn't going to let them have Ellie.

[@thorthewolf8801]

@@Galilelo_Telescope It very much matters. Imagine if the cannibals said that by eating Ellie they gain her immunity, and it was for the greater good that she is eaten. That they could save the world by eating Ellie.

[@celticangel3263]

i honestly think that if ellie was awake and actually informed of the "need" for her death in order to find the cure she likely would of said okay lets do it but would have set the condition that she could say goodbye to Joel to help him get the reason why

[@sorapwn1200]

Near the end where you were saying that Joel was just offloading a ton of emotional baggage on anyone he might consider a daughter, I'd just like to put this out there. This is the first time he's opened up and God knows how long. Ellie is the very first person in right around 21 years that he has ever really opened up to or broken down around. It could just be that, now that the damn is broken, it's all just... Pouring out.

[@pregmobrainrot2857]

right i feel like hes trying to demonize joel and his relationship with ellie too much. joel isnt a good person at all but it doesnt show in how he interacts with ellie. its quite the opposite actually, his love for and loyalty to ellie and the people he cares about is his redeeming quality, their relationship is healthy and just. wholesome

[@DLxxx]

​@@pregmobrainrot2857 "He's trying to demonize Joel and Ellie's relationship." He spends the vast majority of this analysis doing the total opposite. Interpreting the nuances of their interactions in a way that could make Joel (in a few lines of dialogue) be seen as self centered, is NOT "demonizing" anything. He also immediately says that the reading wasn't watertight, and gives off his own counterpoints. It's like no one bothered to watch the whole video, and just listened for whatever little disagreements they could find to blow out of proportion. Like, holy cow, the amount of people who are ready to dismiss half the analysis because they're so defensive of Joel is insane. He's not attacking his character just because he acknowledges Joel's flaws!

[@JM.piwz1]

I agree, but also disagree. As long as the boundary of becoming obsessive isn’t crossed, I don’t see why his decision to talk to Ellie would be demonized. As long as Joel never believes his pain is greater than Ellie’s, this perspective works.

[@cooliocats1104]

for me i think there is no right or wrong answer. its specificly left for people to decide for themselves if what he did was good or bad, which is why i loved the first game . we start of with him being broken only caring for himself, to finding his fatherly love again with Ellie and then to how far hes willing to go to not just keep her safe but the moral implications it will have on the rest of us . that itself made an amazing game and a great character, one where its up to u to decide if they are good or bad because the actions of that character has conflicted people.

[@jiggamanjr7104]

🤙🏼

[@dongusmalongus1915]

Go back to the cinema you spiteful mutant

[@Indigo_1001]

That’s the problem with all these comments. What makes the games ending so good WAS how interpretive it is. But these morons want to take that away form the story and retcon the ending to be “fireflies bad, Joel good” it’s so lame.

[@alreadyblack3341]

@@Indigo_1001 The fact of the matter is, if you want it to be interpretive, you shouldn't give a rat's ass what anyone else says. But because you're so butthurt, you can't help but speak out. Trust me, I know the feeling. Had the same issues with Halo. Except they actually killed it, and here it's just a disagreement with the fandom. My advice: Get out of the comments before they swallow you whole. I'm stuck here but there's still hope for you!

[@orderinchaos85]

@@Indigo_1001 both are in the wrong tbh... they both have their ulterior motives. Firefly wants to gain leverage against Fedra with the vaccine... the group was pretty much on its last leg. Joel was also selfish in his way because he didn't want to lose Ellie and would murder for her.

[@Jonchua1]

It also helps that Ellie is not the only person they have done this experiment on as you find out in that level. Why sacrifice her knowing that previous experiments have failed?

[@vault29a]

she was the only immune person, so it was worth a shot.

[@starwantrix5324]

Wow, I didn't know that, just proves the point that fireflies are stupid idiots. It's all pointless talk, but I'm pretty sure that's not how you're supposed to make a vaccine. I wonder if they actually took out cordyceps from her brain, they'd all just get infected with spores, haha. Humanity's last hope my ass, these dullards didn't know what they were doing

[@bronykingamethystrain5676]

Stupidity on part of the Fireflies and Abby.

[@camdensiam6493]

I actually love the scene where Ellie saves Joel from the guy drowning him. At first when she says "I shot the hell out of that guy, huh?" Joel just says yeah. It's only when she sits down right after and says that she feels sick that Joel gets mad at her and tells her she should've stayed put. I feel like it really helps show the player that Joel has truly started to feel for Ellie and is trying to push it down. A couple minutes later when leaving the hotel Ellie is pretty mad at Joel for his prior behavior and Joel says under his breath to himself, "Oh man, I hate this part." I just kinda feel like he has to be relating his daughter to Ellie while in the hotel and when he realizes that he gets scared and throws up a wall to keep Ellie back.

[@mattfarr137]

I think Joel just decided the world wasn’t worth saving anymore and that Ellie is more valuable than the world. Also who can honestly say they would be willing to let an innocent child get murdered for the chance to save humanity. The ending is basically the trolley car thought experiment.

[@kcthonian]

And if you would... is humanity worth saving? Or better yet... is there even any "humanity" left to save?

[@meebee2942]

@@kcthonian exactly

[@jebes909090]

The chance a single doctor could make a cure for this is basically zero. Take covid for example, literally 10's of thousands of scientists took 6 months to drum up a sorta working vaccine from 100's of samples with the best equipement possible in total comfort. Now look at this situation. A couple of possible scientists, with a single sample, in a unsafe workplace with shit equipement. Trying to cure the uncurable disease that destroyed the world .

[@jonathanshirley4366]

My dad said to my sister and I back when the game came out that he completely agrees with Joel because if he was asked to sacrifice either her or me for the world, he wouldn't do it. And that really put the ending into perspective for me. It made me understand Joel's perspective as a father who is going to lose his surrogate daughter right after he just informally adopted her. The HBO show has a great scene, which has Pedro beat an armed guard who was holding tess and ellie at gunpoint to death after getting ptsd from when Sarah was shot. I feel like the entire last level of the first game was trying to capture that same feeling. He couldn't protect Sarah, but he sure as hell was gonna save Ellie.

[@kratosGOW]

Since there is no reason for the Fireflies to immediately go with a life-ending surgery without any garanties of a cure instead of a litany of tests (like a biopsy at the very least), they essentially set Joel up to be their nemesis and cast themselves as the villains.

[@MissCandiDandi]

God I'm 6 minutes in and realise that I STILL can't watch that scene with Sarah and not cry despite how many damn times I've seen it 😭😭😭

[@antonfowler6582]

Every damn time 😭😭😭

[@ethanethanethan5312]

I like that people are willing to tackle this moral issue even though as far as the story is concerned we’re happy Joel made the decision he did not just because it means Ellie’s alive but because it makes the story feel more real and reminds us that it’s a story about people and not about superheroes

[@courirnorte8137]

you forgot to mention that ellie becomes closed off after the winter section and joel becomes more open, creating this awkward bond between them. we never truly got to see them bond in such a carefree way until the second game when joel celebrates her birthday. yes the do have the giraffe scene in the first game but its a short moment that doesnt last long while they try to get to the fireflies

[@tcm2367]

she was closed off because she saw a deer symbol and it reminded her of the winter trauma: being kidnapped + beaten. almost being r*ped by David, taking care of Joel after so long of it being the opposite etc and it only lasted a short while. joel was still being open as soon as we see him, he wouldn’t if she was quiet the whole time.

[@jacqueleneclark2325]

I am married to a “Joel”, so here’s some insight on Joel telling Ellie about himself. A person like this has been so guarded, when they feel like they have that someone to live for, they feel comfortable enough to share who they REALLY are. They haven’t shared freely probably their whole life and it is a way of sharing and trusting the other person. Also, sadly, I can get why Joel lied. Once you have that thing that’s been missing in your life, you’ll do anything, kill anyone, sacrifice anything to keep that peace. Is it right? No. Not at all. But I do get it.

[@grigoris.7732]

Yeah, I fully understand his actions. It reminds me of an quote I saw in a museum once in Europe. "I will do horrifying things for the people I love."

[@noodlesoup1264]

His death really make this game “not just a game” people talk shit abt his death but i really think it is really good. Like Tess said “we gonna run out of luck”

[@Exoc3tBOOM]

@@grigoris.7732 Arguably, isn't that what the fireflies are also doing...Murdering and monopolising in the name of the greater good but seemingly not understanding how to achieve that good. Not sure if it is still cannon, but I am sure I saw that there was a note you could find saying they had already experimented with other people that were immune. These people had died during the procedure but they had failed to make vaccine. Lending more credence to the vaccine being made not a guarantee in the slightest. I mean as Joel/a Dad, he reads/finds that note and I would think 10/10 fathers run head first into that room and save her at any cost.

[@dwightsnoop6797]

"i am married to a joel" this bias is intrinsic among most of the Caucasian players of this game who hold joel up as a hero and condone all of his actions. Had he looked like Idris Elba for example, i seriously doubt there would be so much empathy for joel considering the type of person he actually is.

[@jacqueleneclark2325]

@@dwightsnoop6797 thanks for…. nothing.

[@kingstonmclean4205]

A big thing that kinda irked me a bit in part 2 was that Ellie held on to this resentment towards Joel understandably but she pushed herself hard into Joel’s feelings when he was trying to push her away so he wouldn’t get hurt, for example at the ranch she knew about Sarah and told Joel she didn’t want to go with anyone else but Joel. Then thinks he would be alright with letting her die for a world that is too far gone

[@WAR904]

Innocent is a STRONG word for the fireflies

[@miller-joel]

It's the WRONG word.

[@kubomrazik9199]

Yeah, "innocent" people who just wanted to carve up 14yo girl. Also, I'm not too fond of the argument that Joel did it, because he did not want to feel the pain of losing his daughter again. He did it because he protected Ellie, not himself from the pain.

[@Ghostkiller__166]

@@kubomrazik9199 Both can be true, and I think in this case it is. To him that's his daughter, he couldn't bare the thought of someone he sees as his own daughter die again. Ellie is his second chance, he wouldn't dare lose that chance again.

[@seventeenseventythirteen7465]

it's pretty strong for Joel to but you don't see anyone saying correcting others that suggest Joel was in the right either. The Fireflies aren't good people in the fullest sense, but if they created a cure or vaccine for it then it could have turned the tides of the world back in humanities favor. Over all, Joel was the selfish one, ESPECIALLY because Ellie wanted this. People just love Joel way too much to see the flaws in his character. It's ultimately annoying to see Naughty Dog fail to write such a compelling and amazingly moral grey protag that I think only rivals Walter White, except for they didn't fail in the sense they made mistakes, they failed because people are too stupid to see the writing on the wall and just paint over it with "Joel did nothing wrong."

[@miller-joel]

@@seventeenseventythirteen7465 There's no "if" about it. They were not going to make any "cure," and it was never going to restore civilization. And NO, Ellie did not want to die for it. That's a garbage retcon in "part II."

[@Ma121Hunter]

"In a different setting in different circumstances, joel could have been a great husband or a great father, and it's easy to forget that" It's only easy to forget if you skip the start of the game where he lost his daughter. Too many people that play this game take the dialogue in too literally, and they don't get nuisance.

[@milacruz3970]

Honestly

[@Mr_van_Der_Linde]

In tlou2, abby flashbacks in the hospital, marlene talks with jerry, abbys father, marlene asks jerry if there is any other way, and then asks jerry what he would have done if it was abby his daughter, not ellie, he avoids the question and then marlene says just do it

[@zaneharoldson2293]

31:20 Touching on what you’re saying about Joel only wanting any daughter but there’s not much to go on. I know part two isn’t the subject of this video but seeing how much time and effort Joel puts into connecting with Ellie (researching space, teaching her to play guitar and swim, the whole museum scene), I think he absolutely sees Ellie as more than just his surrogate and isn’t possessive. When she confronts him about the fireflies he does finally tell her the truth (albeit there was nothing else he could really do here) and he lets her go when she says that they’re done. When his lie is exposed he accepts the consequences.

[@chadmann2724]

Tess not showing weakness over being bitten was a GOD tier way of writing a strong independent woman

[@RealHaydo]

During the Second sequence I noticed that while nobody really cared about Joel, nobody wanted to be in Tess' way. When old mate who had sold the guns got caught Joel waited until Tess nodded the order to smash him with the pipe. the way it felt to me is that Tess is a scary level of dangerous

[@honey-hunterslimefanno.3257]

@@RealHaydo Spoilers for the TV series based of TLOU- It sucks that they made Tess seem weaker at the start of the show, she starts of captured and making deals with the guy who sold their guns to the fireflies.

[@holy9781]

I'm playing remake on ps5 and you'll see tess even more god tier with her new facial expression.tess is clearly the boss in the relationship and I wish we had more time with her,but without her,it would never have happened

[@liabw05]

@@honey-hunterslimefanno.3257 she showed no weakness in that scene! Literally showed so much strength and Whit

[@honey-hunterslimefanno.3257]

The lack of getting captured by those people makes game Tess better

[@skotmatthews8940]

God dang watching Sarah's death scene in a KZbin STILL made me tear up. Definitely one of the most emotional death scenes in ANY form of media

[@andromedadrexy694]

Though I know its a collectable item, there is an autolog during the rampage at the firefly hq from Marlene that states theyve done it so many times already and it never worked, she didnt even believe it could work with ellie. So if the audiologs are cannon, Ellie wouldve died for nothing. Though thats just my response to the end, the entire video essay was great.

[@maessof91]

Thats not true, its a misunderstanding

[@iMasterchris]

*sigh* That in game collectible was not about someone like Ellie who was fully immune, it was about other test subjects that had the disease, it’s not even particularly ambiguous

[@EtherealAfro]

Wrong

[@chadmann2724]

Those others were probably folks bitten by the same infected as ellie. How a fungus can change species (breeds? Strains? Culture is a word i know) entirely is actually impossible even for the suspension of disbelief.

[@jefferyzielke7665]

It's impossible to ask a father to sacrifice his daughter. That's how Joel looks at Ellie

[@alexquiroz9414]

It’s that simple. Case closed.

[@rajohnbutler7131]

As a father of an 18 month old. If God himself came to me and said one gotta go you or your daughter. The answer is me every time, all the time, any time. There is no need to even process the question. Doesn’t matter what’s on the table. Doesn’t matter if my daughter the next Messiah and her sacrifice means everyone body earth gains paradise. The answer is still no, take me.

[@Galilelo_Telescope]

especially if he already lost a daughter.

[@vault29a]

but he was okay to sacrifice anybody else, just not ellie, lol.

[@RacingSnails64]

It's not even just that. It's asking him to sacrifice his daughter for something that *isn't guaranteed to work and might not work.* In that context, it is ESPECIALLY gonna be a "hell no" from a father. It better be 200% certain it's going to work before he even CONSIDERS the possibility.

[@beezergutler5488]

There was no guarantee that they would have been able to use Ellie to cure the fungus. However, there was a guarantee that if Joel saves her from them, she won’t die. Joel made the right decision based on observable certainties.

[@miller-joel]

Even if the "cure" was 100% guaranteed, killing Ellie is still an unacceptable cost.

[@OldManMcLoyf]

The biggest issue with the decision being complicated is that the Fireflies are horrible people, it always comes done to that. -They want to murder Ellie without her complete consent -They want to send Joel off without any gear because he doesn’t inherently agree with them murdering Ellie (Without gear Joel is dead outside) -The Fireflies bomb places left and right, calling them a militia group opposed to another word that begins with T and ends with -rist is a stretch -If they got the cure, they would use it as a power play opposed to this dream that they would cure the whole world, when they’d only give it to allies and not who they perceive as enemies *cough* nearly every other faction

[@MrImastinker]

TLOU Part II glossed over so much of this to make Joel look worse by comparison. And that still annoys me to this day. A sequel which only works by ignoring or straight up contradicting its predecessor's plot is not a good sequel.

[@CrobatmanIamthenight]

Joel did t give Ellie a choice either and then he lied nullifying Ellie's struggle

[@MrImastinker]

@@CrobatmanIamthenight Not justifying Joel lying to Ellie, that was pretty shitty of him. And him wasting the doctor wasn't necessary either. But let's be frank here, What happened at the hospital, that was Joel reacting to Marlene's ultimatum. It might not have happened if Marlene had let Joel and Ellie talk things out, even just to say goodbye. It's not so clear cut as "Fireflies right, Joel wrong".

[@ronak1058]

Yeah and even if the fireflies were generous and let Joel and Ellie talk it out. It would have been a gamble for the world's future. If Ellie said no they would still force the operation because it's not like another opportunity for a cure would come along. And if Ellie somehow convinced Joel that it was okay to sacrifice herself for the greater good, both of their journeys would have come to a destination where 1. Joel would get some closure about losing his daughter. 2. Ellie would feel fulfilled that she her sacrifices would be worth it. Either way only the fireflies would be in the position where their morals would be tested in the end.

[@OldManMcLoyf]

@@CrobatmanIamthenight Joel didn’t even get the chance to make a choice, it was die and Ellie dies or fight to survive and maybe save Ellie.

[@The_Mammal_Man]

"(...) instead of dismissing those comments I decided to take them seriously and reexame Joel's Character arc" And now we have a 41min video about Joel !

[@Leo._...]

I almost cry every time I see the scene where Sarah dies. Every single time, even 9 years after this game came out and after countless times having played it and seen it, it never fails to tear me up.

[@borzy]

Nice essay, but yet again, another analysis that misses what broke Joel, just like Druckmann. And you know Druckmann didn’t understand this because in TLOU2 he wrote the “if I were to lose you” song. What Joel lost when Sarah died was NOT JUST a daughter: what he lost, that’s thematically important, is trust in systems of men. And I know there were writers in the background who intended this message, because of the cyclical poetry of what happened. Sarah didn’t die to infection, she didn’t die from an accident: Sarah died when they were meant to be safe. The system of men, represented by the soldier, was meant to protect them. But instead he shot to kill them, for “the greater good”. And just like how Joel is caring for an injured Sarah at the beginning, this is mirrored in the ending, when Joel is again caring for an injured Ellie when (again) men with guns come to kill her for “the greater good”. This poetic full circle of events is not accidental. Joel had no reason to trust organized systems of men after such a system killed Sarah. This is why he was both an outsider to both FEDRA and Fireflies in the beginning. Possibly also the reason he did not join the Fireflies like Tommy. This is why in the end, facing down an armed, militarized Fireflies in the hospital, we could empathasize with Joel’s action: we understood that these soldiers are just another system here to take “our daughter” for the supposed greater good. And what is the greater good? We can already see Fireflies are in open conflict with FEDRA, buying guns, blowing up QZ, killing people, in a struggle for power. We can already see they are willing to kill Ellie for the vaccine. And what will such a system of men do with a vaccine once they get it? Give it away for free? Of course not. The Fireflies will 100% use the vaccine to leverage for more control and power, essentially becoming the new post-apocalyptic “big pharma”…. or “Umbrella Corp” if you will. Anyway. The full circle. The mirror of Sarah and Ellie’s condition when they were taken. It’s not an accident. Neil Druckmann didn’t understand it. And it seems many people miss this too.

[@burge117]

This comment...10/10.

[@cricker1998]

Well said

[@seventeenseventythirteen7465]

This is so much why I hate good story writing, because people can't fucking understand it and make up what the writers real intent was, or even outright says the writers where wrong. Fucking Christ, imagine retroactively calling the writer of the first story terrible at writing, because you didn't like the sequel. You're saying what was REEEEAAALLLLY supposed to be the point of the game, despite it obviously being not the case. Fuck sake I hate TLOU fans because they can't fucking figure out shit when it comes to moral complications and nuance. It's always "Protag good, princess good, anyone between is always bad no matter what. Protag can do no wrong." despite him clearly saying he did terrible things in the past... We're just going to forget about how selfish of a survivor Joel was? You're going to bring this back to the cyclical poetry that was insanely obvious of him holding Sarah at the beginning and him holding Ellie at the end? AND THEN!!! Further saying the writer of the game didn't even realize they did one of the most obvious ways of story telling in this game because again, you just didn't like part 2? This whole comment is riddled with "Joel Good, Firefly Bad.", going so far to say that the Fireflies would become big pharma for a cure? You don't even know that, the Fireflies weren't entirely terrorists either, that was also meant to be a moral grey since they were killing people that FUCKING KILL ANYONE THAT BREAKS THE LAW!!!!! You're making the QZ soldiers out to be better just to say the Fireflies were worse, JUST to say that Joel was even more in the right. Oh my god I'm going insane. This is so fucking obvious. But the worst part is seriously retroactively shitting on the writer because they didn't do as good a job in the second game, then saying that they were actually also terrible in the first game, all because you didn't understand the message or point of it. You're almost making up themes like them becoming Umbrella Corp and big pharma when the themes of the game had nothing to do with that. You're making up a story in your head and saying that your version was better, again, because you didn't like the sequel...

[@burge117]

@@seventeenseventythirteen7465 And breath :)

[@borzy]

@@seventeenseventythirteen7465 you are going insane. Lol. Chill dude. And no one said Joel was good. It’s about empathy. Understanding the motives of the character does not make them “good people”. The point of a good story is that we empathise. And the inference that the Fireflies will just leverage the cure for power? We do know that. That is not some bias to make the Fireflies “look bad”. If you don’t know the Fireflies will leverage the cure for power, then you didn’t understand the theme of the game (or any zombie movie or show for that matter). Like all zombie shows, TLOU1 was HEAVILY HEAVILY themed to suggest that it is PEOPLE who are the real enemy. The zombies are just scary beasts. People on the other hand can be terrible to one another; out of greed, jealousy, perversion, anger, spite, or just desperation. A beast acts out of instinct. People act with malice. Ellie’s “cure” was never going to save humanity. That’s the theme through the game.

[@U4ia28]

The fireflies incompetence IS the secret justification for Joel’s decision to save Ellie. The fact that finding out about said incompetence is so easily missed leaves room for varied interpretations based on just how much players explore and learn about the world and the lore of the game. It also makes sense that they were failures given the state of their world and the fact that the formerly npc doctor turned Abby’s dad wasn’t even a doctor in the first place. The dismal chances of success was a narrative decision that was meant to be weighed against Joel’s Decision to save Ellie. Take a chance at a 99 to 1 shot at a cure or save the closest thing to a daughter you have after losing your first one. It fully contextualizes the moral dilemma being put in front of the player. Who’s interpretations will change based on how much the player knows. It creates an incentive for exploration in the form of higher understanding of the world and the choices being made within it. The writers making the fireflies incompetent adds another layer of depth that can lead to players changing their views and interpretations of the decisions being made mid game. That’s world building. If there’s any mistake that the writers made it’s forcing us to kill the main doctor (Abby’s dad) blocking us from saving Ellie since it removes choice away from the player. A choice that has heavy ramifications for how a player will contextualize said forced decision. As opposed to having the choice to just immobilize vs kill and what both choices will communicate to the player about themselves and about Joel.

[@bluespidergaming7719]

also last i remember joel didnt just shoot the guy because he could the guy actively tried fighting joel for ellie

[@marakalos3838]

@@bluespidergaming7719 Ding Ding Ding! He tried with a scalpel as well, and wouldn’t let Joel get close to Ellie until Joel killed him. The doc, or stitch with his level of competence, was dedicated to a bad degree.

[@ChrisGoldie]

@@marakalos3838 in the docs defense joel did come in after going on a killing spree off innocent fireflies 😂

[@marakalos3838]

@@ChrisGoldie I don’t consider the fireflies innocent, not all of them. Some may not have been involved but they did hurt a lot of people when trying to fight the remnants of the old military. Regardless you are correct, Joel massacred his comrades before finally meeting him so his fear is understandable. Also the doc had his orders to follow

[@ChrisGoldie]

@@marakalos3838 and tbh honest if he told ellie the truth when she woke up. Like the full truth since u can find the gossip letters from Marlene stating she’s not really sure. Then i would say joel is only partly guilty. But he didnt 😂

[@bigguner5174]

I love that with the show being out it actually shows that it can't be cured

[@krasmasov6852]

The show not only demonstrated that the vaccine could've worked but provides additional information as to why Ellie is immune in the first place. How did you get the opposite conclusion?

[@bigguner5174]

@krasmasov6852 in one of the openings it shows the Asian professor and says you can't cure a fungus only destroy its spread

[@krasmasov6852]

@bigguner5174 Which at that time was true. Things change as we learn more lol. That's how science works

[@bigguner5174]

@@krasmasov6852 it's heavily based off the game and if you find the recordings and notes you'd see he's barely even a doctor and not only that the fungus it's based off works like that there is no cure.

[@krasmasov6852]

@@bigguner5174 Now that'd just outright untrue. In fact, the recording in the game suggest the opposite

[@Licket]

In the later game, we find out way more about the procedure the Fireflies were about to perform on Ellie, and it was in fact, completely experimental. In other words, there was no way to ensure that Ellie wouldn't die for nothing. On top of that, the gripe about Joel lying to Ellie after their escape from the Fireflies isn't all that different from what any other parent would do to try and protect their child from harm. I don't see it as Joel taking advantage of Ellie's vulnerability, instead I see him stepping further into the parent role and trying to guide Ellie away from a decision that would end her life even though she herself desperately wanted to assist in any way she could to find a cure. I'm not saying this in defense of parents who boldface lie to their children, I believe honesty is truly the best policy, but after all he's gone through, Joel can't really be held accountable for doing everything he could (in a state of desperation and panic mind you) to protect this new daughter.

[@KaylaLoveHeart]

Something I would like to mention is that when I played as Ellie all alone the first time, it felt even scarier than being just Joel. I realized it was because usually Joel would be giving instructions on what to watch out for and how to help. On your own you don't get that direction anymore, which really made me feel like a lost kid. Which Ellie was. Not only a child too, but a girl. Something I also noticed that wasn't mentioned was Ellie wasn't just kidnapped and almost killed towards the end of the game, she was kidnapped and creepily spared. The leader guy gave her multiple chances to warm up, acting extremely weird towards her despite Ellie completely rejecting and fighting. She only manages to escape by acting cute and sweet, then runs off. And before Joel finds her and she's close to being killed, the leader guy doesn't give me the vibe that he was just going to kill and eat her. He seemed to give off the vibe that he wanted to make her as miserable as possible beforehand, and make himself feel a little better if you catch my drift. Which is triple the amount of terrifying playing as her was, as well as how much better it felt to get Joel back when he saves her.

[@gaia7240]

That part was so intense

[@vanessareynolds5428]

Something no one brings up is that Ellie may not have made the choice to die. Sure, years later in the second game she says she would've gone through with it, but she's still a kid in this one. Why do I feel like she would've just been stunned? No one, not even Ellie, really truly knows how she would've reacted in the moment, with a team of scientists telling you you're going to die. And honestly even if the fireflies did tell her, no matter what she chooses, they would've done it by force. They're shitty people too, just with a morality complex.

[@thorthewolf8801]

Exactly, I might act brave and say I would do it, but its easy to do once you are no longer able to. What counts is what you would sas in that moment, and the fireflies robbed her of her choice.

[@noname77404]

Joel was wrong for not killing all of the fireflies, including Abby lol

[@InvertedWIng]

Seems to be the only "moral" lesson to take out of TLOU2. Every problem that happens in that game is a result of people not being thorough enough in their killing. Joel fails to kill the Fireflies, so what remains of them kill him. They spare Ellie, so she goes to kill them. They keep on SPARING Ellie and her crew, and so they keep on TRYING to kill them. Goes to show that the only surefire way to end the cycle of revenge is to make sure there's no one alive to get revenge in the first place.

[@malakarvonstroheim5372]

@@InvertedWIng Mediocrity is the true enemy of this series

[@tinamaryland4271]

@@InvertedWIng that's why in the mafia, they don't just kill you, they kill your entire family and all of your friends and anyone else you're associated with. Because they don't want any chance of anyone else coming back at them for revenge.

[@c13lack5]

@@InvertedWIng Doesn't sound like you finished it, the cycle of violence ended after abby spared dina and ellie who then let abby and lev go at the end of the game

[@han090]

@@InvertedWIng You mean the only way to avoid "an eye for an eye" is to make the whole world blind?

[@roshidex]

One point that I barely seen someone touch in TLoU analisys is that the fireflighs never Informed Ellie about the procedure, she slept the whole thing. Even if they could craft a vaccine, even if they had the capacity to scale the production and even if they would gave it to everyone without restrictions, that fact make the whole thing really sus. There was no benefit to rush to kill a child instead of doing every test imaginable, get the thing peer reviewed (as much as you can in the apocalypse) and inform everyone involved, and if Ellie really needed to die, She could make a choice and She could had talk to Joel, avoiding the whole debacle.

[@PixelHeroViish]

Yeah the Fireflies were so desperate about it that they just kinda went in to rush things and hopefully get that cure out there, it's extremely weird on their end

[@basilcook4280]

@@PixelHeroViish eh, not that weird. They were on their last leg, right? The fireflies didn’t have a whole lot of time left

[@PixelHeroViish]

@@basilcook4280 Were they though? Sure things got worse but they must've handled themselves pretty well for those 20 years, so only now rushing to get a cure? Pretty odd to me

[@morelstrike]

@@basilcook4280 They still exist in TLoU 2, so it wasn't that bad. In fact humans became much greater threat to each other then the zombies as those can be mostly avoided/killed at this point.

[@mahega128]

He definitely cares about Tess, he just never fully opened himself up to her emotionally in preparedness for her death which unfortunately ended up happening.

[@omelettte]

The way I like to view it is that when Joel makes that decision at the end of the game it’s about Ellie, it’s not about how competent the fire flies are or how successful the cure could have been because when he makes the choice he hasn’t read about the experiments or learned anything about the facility or doctors, he just knows Ellie is going to die and even says that to Marlene, he doesn’t care about the logistics of the cure, he just cares that they will “come after her”

[@sol4519]

I found the part in which you described Joel only interested in Ellie as a Daughter and not Ellie very interesting ! Personally, I believe that is also connected to Joel's difficulty in connecting to other people. During this entire time, he has never actively tried to learn about anybody's history or lives, matter of fact, everyone he interacted with was just as defensive over their past as he was. That type of socializing sticks, and at least to me, in those situations it feels much easier to share and wait for the other person to open up as well than to ask and risk opening wounds. Being vulnerable to Joel is also visibly awkward at times, it is very clear that he has a hard time approaching Ellie in a very fatherly way. Honestly, the way Joel beats around the bush asking Ellie about herself is very familiar to me. However, he still cares for Ellie personally and I see that in the ways he picks up on what she brings up. Every time Ellie shares that she likes something or enjoys something, Joel picks up on it and makes sure to somehow bring it up. We see in the comics in the first game, Ellie's birthday in the second and how he responds to her wishes to swim, play the guitar etc. He also takes active interest in her life in the second game, as we see him talking about Jesse with Ellie, showing he pays attention and cares for her as a person. In my understanding, Joel as an adult probably has more shame than Ellie does in asking about one's traumatic past too. I'm not denying that Joel projects his need for having his daughter back onto Ellie, as that is a crucial part of the story, but I also believe he likes Ellie for who she is and is trying to fix his mistakes while having very poor social skills from so many years of isolation. Edit: saw a comment that mentioned that Joel is probably also excited to finally break down those barriers and share and I also believe that is part of it. He held things in for so long that it must feel good to finally just share, specially with someone who is so lighthearted and open to vulnerability as Ellie is.

[@Generik97]

30:50 My interpretation here isn't that Joel is intentionally trying to dump emotional baggage onto Ellie or that he doesn't care about Ellie and her past its that he has spent so long being emotionally walled off that he is simply getting everything he has held onto over the last twenty years off his chest. Speaking as an introvert who isn't particularly out going this isn't uncommon for me, I don't talk to many people and when I do it's easy to get carried away and ramble while also forgetting to be mindful of others.

[@nickelakon5369]

Others here have said it, not sure if you've seen it He saw what happened with Ellie and David when he pulled her off him. And he can tell by the way she's acting it's effected her. He's trying to help her, he's opening up about his pain so that she'll open up about what's effecting her and he can help her through it.

[@lenoregreene9732]

I complete agree. If the writers had made it more clear that sacrificing Ellie would have at least been a real possibility of a cure (in the world of the game) or a for sure thing, then the question would have been "Is murdering one person morally ok if you are saving the world?" Especially if that one person is not allowed to decide for themselves. (I personally say no. It is not moral to murder an innocent person.) Or the flip side...Is it morally ok to not murder someone if you could cure the world. But instead, we are debating if the cure was a real possibility, or was it a mass delusion of desperate group of people. Because there is a lack of concrete info, I lean on the side of it was their delusion.

[@Tattoosbyjosh1]

One of the greatest game ever written, as a father I’d do everything Joel did without blinking an eye

[@danielcollins1187]

Late to the party, but: The Firefly's appearing incompetent IS the point. It took the ending from something we've seen time and again, to an ending we're discussing a decade later. And narratively, their incompetence adds a dimension to the question: what is humanity worth? Not only are you able to sacrifice those you loved for it, but how slim a chance at saving humanity are your loved ones worth?

[@JLJhippotype]

saving ellie was the only moral choice. letting a kid get killed because some lunatic who runs a militia says her brain can cure a fungal disease is insane. if joel let them kill ellie then that would make him a monster

[@nicholascharles9625]

But the fungal disease infects the brain and nervous system. Finding out why she's immune via vivisection might very well yield positive results. She has the infection and you could find the difference in how her brain handles it vs a regular person. However whether or not the fireflies could produce a cure for what's likely a genetic trait is another matter all together.

[@JLJhippotype]

@@nicholascharles9625 it wouldn't. fungal meningitis is cured by antifungals. they dont just take some immune randos brain out.

[@warmpillow4457]

@@nicholascharles9625sure, but bioengineering a vaccine through bone marrow/plasma from a dead host doesn't yield many results anyway. Not only that, but vaccines are ineffective against fungal infections, which is what the cordyceps virus is. There are even audiologs in the game that say the chance of success with making a vaccine AND it actually working were very slim. So to make the situation worse, they were going to kill a child for essentially nothing.

[@maessof91]

Murduring innocents and lieing to ellie was the only moral choice 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂🌈

[@rumaulia2709]

They were gonna throw him out to wilderness with nothing and at any moment now Ellie could be killed by the doctors. Easy decision for Joel to make

[@shaneroffey5638]

I don't care that I am a childless grown man, that scene with joel gets me every damn time. every replay, every youtube video.

[@707isnotfound]

I find it so interesting that you said that Joel murdered “innocent” people at the end of the game. I never saw the fireflies as innocent because they would be fine with sacrificing a 14 year old for a possible cure. Who are they to decide that ellie should die for “the betterment” of their world? Great analysis! I enjoyed the video.

[@gaia7240]

The second game make sure to show that fireflies weren't good, showing how Abby and her crew are, just murderous soldiers, even Tommy left the fireflies and there was a reason for it

[@starwantrix5324]

Fireflies constantly bomb Quarantine Zones and fight FEDRA, who's to say that some of those soldiers weren't innocent? It's clear that fedra teaches kids how to become soldiers in military schools, but they get their first assignment at 16 years old, so how many kids who were dressed up as soldiers they killed? Nobody knows. And when you use explosives many bypassers could have been killed in the crossfire, so no, fireflies are definitely not innocent, they are just another group of survivors. They are holier than thou and would do anything for the cause including killing 14 year old without a clear plan Marlene said that they can reverse engineer a vaccine out of the cordyceps. Lol, such fancy science words, if they can do that simply like that, they can do it without killing Ellie, she is saying it so confidently, like it's easy as pie, but it gives of a vibe that she doesn't know what she is talking about

[@bronykingamethystrain5676]

If they couldn't develop a vaccine for Cordyceps the first time around, what the hell made them think they'ed be lucky the second time?! a fungus is miles different from a virus.

[@nickelakon5369]

It's also made pretty clear the fire flies hands are pretty bloody themselves. They bomb safe zones, not only probably directly killing people in the resulting explosion, but also probably letting infected or raiders.

[@PokeNachos]

What makes Joel more realistic is his battle with his morals. He's neither brutally evil, nor is he a Saint.

[@areallybigdwarf4560]

37:15 idk why everyone just chooses to forget this but, Marlene herself doesn't explain shit to Ellie because she doesn't care about what Ellie would choose and it's not like Joel would just gun down 5 floors of dudes to ask the doctors to wake Ellie up so she can decide if she wants to die or not while Joel holds up everyone hostage.

[@jiggycalzone8585]

They also planned to kill Joel as well so on some level it's actually self defense on his part

[@burtemis1]

Roanoke Gaming did an excellent video on the cordyceps infection in The Last of Us. Joel inarguably did the right thing at the end. The Fireflies had absolutely no chance of finding a cure in Ellie’s brain. Edit: okay Brett addressed this like 15 seconds after I hit post. But I still think Joel was right.

[@DorianGay]

I think if you consider how patently unscientific and absurd the Fireflies' plan was, Joel's decision to save Ellie was correct. Even from a purely logistical standpoint, you don't kill your only test subject and only potential source of immunity on a hunch. Especially given that they did no research on Ellie as a living subject. They didn't even try anything else before they decided to kill her. If she's producing antibodies (or anything else) in her brain, she's certainly going to stop once she's dead. Joel's motivations were selfish and not about research ethics or science. But he didn't actually eliminate any hope for the cure.

[@aliciagrayson4203]

31:35 I have an alternate reading I'd like to put forward. To me, it always felt like Joel was trying to get Ellie to open up again after the traumatic events of the winter. You have to actively get her attention multiple times because she's just spaced out and staring. She's a lot quieter in general too.

[@onetwosreesour5161]

When you have the responsibility to keep a child safe no matter what those circumstances may be you will go to unbelievable lengths to do that. I see it as Joel simply doing his job

[@camstegames8437]

The simple fact is, Ellie could have talked Joel into acceptance. The Fireflies were to afraid to wake her up and let her make the choice that they wanted to pretend she made. Marlene saying "It's what she would have wanted...and you know it" always rings so hollow because they were taking away her choice rather than letting her choose to save humanity. Morality you force upon someone isn't morality, it's slavery. Even a saint would have wanted her to wake up and choose. To be honest, even if they laid out that there was a 100% chance of the cure working and all of humanity being saved...Joel still did the right thing as far as I'm concerned because they weren't letting her choose, they were turning her into a forced human sacrifice instead. No different than killing a child to bring the rain in ancient times. A world built on that isn't necessarily a better world simply because more humans are alive. As for the lie...the entire point of being a parent is you don't need to feel absolved from the lie....you just need them safe.

[@Vigilant_Owl]

I remember the first time I saw this and how gut wrenching and real it felt. There were no final words. Not heartfelt messages to let go or live your life. It was real and visceral and chaotic. It makes you feel sick to your stomach for the right reasons.

[@Comicbroe405]

Glad you made a follow up to reexamine/elaborate your stance.. I already thought the previous video was great so a more detailed look is great.

[@abigailslade3824]

It’s also important to take into account that Sarah wasn’t killed by Zombies but by those in power making decisions they justify by calling to the claim of the greater good just like the fireflies. Also Marlene promised to take care of Ellie to her mother but is ready to sacrifice her pretty darn quick imho.

[@sethbrown8180]

I like it to the saying "without condeming or condoning i understand"

[@johnson1735]

Joel is a doggamn gift he grew so much as a person, remember he taught ellie guitar as well...he didn't pick just any daughter he loved Ellie for all she was and accepted her as she was

[@Armand-ue7om]

especially with the fireflies being jerks when you finally meet them kind'a made the decision easier...

[@hidalgoWORLD24]

That “oh baby girl” at the end always kills me

[@kilroy987]

You could argue that the presentation of the Fireflies at the end made Joel's decision very easy, and leave it morally vague in the process. But it served Joel's relationship with Ellie, and made his decision more dramatic. It also allowed the writers of Part 2 to spend 25 hours of our time saying Joel wasn't innocent. Fine, whatever.

[@ThreeRoundBurstMusic]

I think it's also really important to note that the Fireflies continuously throughout the story lose territory, bases, and personnel to all manner of things: soldiers, infected, and even monkeys at this point. They're very obviously unable to maintain the small footholds they do have, let alone gain new ones, and, in my eyes, are unable to produce a vaccine. It was a shot in the dark to begin with, but for them, it was like shooting a star in space while being spun around upside down: it would have been astronomical odds that some random dude they found would've been able to make a vaccine, and I find it even less likely the Fireflies of all people would have found the one random guy who could have done it. The Fireflies, in my opinion, were written to be bumbling idiots. The moral choice sort of falls apart when you realize how incompetent they are. It's probably unintentional, but they seem to be the least qualified people to try to make a vaccine.

[@miller-joel]

Everything about this game was carefully deliberate. The Fireflies are not presented as incompetent morons by accident.

[@ThreeRoundBurstMusic]

@@miller-joel In complete honesty, I firmly believe that the other two writers (whom I unfortunately don’t know the names of) had a lot to do with how tight the writing was. I’m honestly upset that the Remake went out of the way to retcon how dingy and rundown the “surgery” room was, and since those two writers are gone, I feel like there’s a very intentional reason as to why that is…

[@miller-joel]

@@ThreeRoundBurstMusic Yes, "part II" makes it really hard to believe Neil wrote the original at all.

[@thegreyghost5846]

I feel like in the first game, the Fireflies were intentionally depicted as very dubious and untrustworthy people. In game 2 it feels like Neil had changed his mind on them and tried to retcon them into being angels

[@unexardiximarion1920]

It's not even a question of good or evil, but a question of competence at that point. Imagine if Superman, while still being the goody two shoes shining beam of goody goodness good he is depicted as, was the biggest incompetent moron you have ever seen in your entire life, always fucking up everything he does, saving 0 people, making situations worse, getting everyone that joined him killed, etc. Now imagine you are in trouble, a baby in your arms, and Superman came crashing through the building, fumbling over his cape, fucking up your precious antique china set in the process, got up after shitting himself, and told you "quick, give me the baby! I can save you all!" would you seriously give him the baby? Even though he is the most pure hearted man to have ever lived? No matter what the game directors or writers said AFTER THE GAME CAME OUT, every single time we encounter the fireflies or someplace they used to live in, they are depicted like incompetent, dead or soon to be dead, morons. In what plane of existence do they look like they can succesfully perform a brain surgery on a never before seen case in a run down hospital to find a cure to a world ending disease? It shifts the "save the girl or save the world" to "save the girl from a bunch of buffons about to kill her for nothing". There is no moral dillema, cause there is no dillema in the first place. Fireflies being either litteral angels or dubious untrustworthy people do not even comes into the equation.

[@myniko]

Let’s be fair to Joel, ellie had asked about his past before and he didn’t. That just felt like he finally filled that request

[@_enki]

Joel's dilemma kinda reminds me of Fallout 3's The Pitt mission, where you must retrieve the cure for radiation from the raid leader's room, ultimately killing the leader, freeing the slaves, and saving everyone's lives. The catch though is that the cure is actually the leader's child who is immune to radiation. So, the game is basically asking you to choose between freeing the slaves or siding with the raiders, all for a child. there's more details and story and basically one of my favorite dlcs from Fallout. i think to this day, there are players who are conflicted with these mission, some siding with the slaves and others with the raiders.

[@dreamtreater]

I just finished the game yesterday for the first time, and it was very satisfying and welcome to listen to this well written and nicely spoken thorough discussion of the experience I just had. There was a lot more to the story than I knew, but i felt it. Thanks so much.

[@pagespurls]

I guess I see the overall theme of the game as love and how without love or connection with others, people become cold and distant and even ruthless. I think in the moment when he rushes to save Ellie and he says to her, "C'mon baby girl, I got you," it shows that he has finally allowed himself to love again, to find purpose in his life again. I don't know, I always lose it when he refers to her as "baby girl" instead of "kiddo." The Fireflies intentionally didn't tell Joel or Ellie that the procedure would kill Ellie. I think he did what any father would do in that situation, whether it is the overall moral decision or not.

[@nathanporrata9274]

Joel did nothing wrong in that ending. He rescued his loved one. That's the rope of a man, to provide for and protect the ones he loves. He fulfilled that role. He did nothing wrong

[@TheGeoCheese]

Did like essay, it’s informative but you missed the moral (or lack of) compass of the Fireflies. Basically they wanted to commit to another hail mary because they wanted all of this suffering to mean something. They withheld information from Joel and Ellie, they refused to give them the ability to give consent, and they were willing to kill a kid for a miracle cure that does not exist (heading back to that medical research facility) if you can catch the part that one of them actually quit the project because of the very many repeated failures. While what Joel did was horrifying, he really didn’t have much of a choice in the matter. It was all decided for him it was just a matter of commitment to it. Weird thing is despite the lie he told (he doesn’t know) it’s still technically a half truth because of that tape they found and skipped through just for the Firefly’s location. The only difference is he didn’t omit he interfered with the operation. This was just a horrific situation for Joel to be in.

[@shihoblade]

I wouldnt say Joel did anything wrong even if the cure was 100% on the way with Ellie's sacrifice. They wanted to kill a little girl in her sleep and they had no intention of waitong for her consent. As players we knownshe likely wouldve consented but they didnt care enough to ask. What happens if Ellie wakes up and says no, they are gonna just let her walk away? Yeah I dont think so either. Joel is justified here either way.

[@pain002]

Very important detail was they doomed him to dying as well. People dont realize joel would never in a billion years made it back to jackson without his stuff...which they refused to give him. Not even meantioning the weapons him and tess were promised

[@seventeenseventythirteen7465]

Yeah, but, Ellie wanted that... Ellie said so, they probably even told her before she went on the journey, she valued the potential cure to save the world over her own life. Joel saved her for selfish reasons to essential make up for what happened to Sarah. I get why he did it, but it doesn't make what he did right. And they weren't "going to kill a little girl in her sleep"... You're phrasing it in the WORST possible way to make them look bad. It's like if treating a cancer riddled kid with chemotherapy is "intentionally give children drugs that make them extremely sick." She wanted this, Joel was the one that broke Ellies trust and he was the one that didn't wait for Ellie to give consent. Ellie knew when she asked the question at the end of the game. She knew he killed them all and went back on this whole thing all for himself. But instead of being upset about him ruining the one thing Ellie thought she had to do in life, she chooses to accept it because now Joel is all she's got and she's all that Joel has as wel. I swear to god that gamers will twist everything to fit the "main hero good did no wrong everyone else big baddy." because they played as Joel and don't want to think of him as evil.

[@thorthewolf8801]

@@seventeenseventythirteen7465 How come it never came up when she and Joel discussed their plans for after the hospital? How do you know she wanted to die?

[@seventeenseventythirteen7465]

@@thorthewolf8801 She said she didn't care what happened to her as long as she might be able to help make a cure. I mean did she ever talk about what happens after the hospital? I remember distinctly Joel saying "once we're done with all this, what's next?" and Ellie just kind of going silent. See, shit is implied through gameplay and subtle context ques. It's shit like that that tells you she might know that that's the end for her. Who knows, maybe she knew the whole time she'd be giving her life up, after all she was sent off by Marline who knew already the risks and even her dying regardless. So you think she might not have told Ellie? She brings it up a few times to Joel how much she's willing to go through to make this cure, that's all she thinks he life is worth at that point. If you really care to pay any attention to little details you can. Instead of just needing her to look you dead in the eyes and say "I, Ellie (last name) am willing to give my life for the cure no matter what. I am 100%, me, Ellie, okay with dying if necessary and am okay with it. Please, do not get it twisted, I am fine with my own demise."

[@thorthewolf8801]

@@seventeenseventythirteen7465 Actually, she said something like she goes wherever Joel goes if my memory serves well... She knew? I very much doubt that she would have left Joel without at least a goodbye. Which is exactly why the fireflies were shady, as soon as they got their hands on her, they were about to cut her up, without any tests, without trying to make a cure without killing her. I dont think you know how consent works...

[@ccolton9]

The actor who plays Joel in the show does a great job portraying the loss and all the emotions that makes Joels character even though he doesnt look much like the game adaptation

[@Lightna]

30:10, I'd argue that the transformation isn't quite complete by then. Joel has a whole vintage of bottled emotion in his cellar that he is now able to pop the cork on each on and pour out. Yes, he is talking about himself and not letting Ellie get a word in edgewise but consider the twenty years of emotional isolation. Now that Joel has made the choice to connect and open up, he can finally let loose with his emotions, his past, and the trauma it all entails. He is finally able to receive catharsis for everything since Sarah's death up to Ellie's rescue from the cannibals. You have mentioned that Ellie is perceptive of Joel. I believe she is perceptive enough to realize that this is a big moment for Joel, and she lets him run on with letting everything out. Her intuition and empathy more than likely urging her at the time that this is important and to entertain Joel's wants, less he retreats back and rebuilds his emotionless, lonely wall again because it isn't being reciprocated or received well. It's her way of encouraging Joel to come out of the shell. By the end of the game where Joel fights through the hospital, that is when his transformation is complete. His fatherly instincts have awoken and he goes full papa bear when it comes to Ellie. Nothing will stop him.

[@heyitsvonage2768]

I never truly believed they could manufacture a cure. I know Ellie was their best shot at it, but something about the way they were acting at the lab didn't make me confident that they were even right about being able to do it, and she could be getting sacrificed for nothing. The Fireflies just never really made me feel like they really knew what they were doing. Do we ever get confirmation that they can really do that from the writers?

[@vault29a]

"the cure" is a mcgaffin, joel never cared about it anyway. only ellie mattered to him, he even told marlene to find someone else to kill.

[@thorthewolf8801]

@@vault29a Doesnt the fact that he tells Marlene to find someone else mean that he does care about it? He doesnt say you cant have a cure.

[@mike-mz6yz]

how can someone watch that scene with Tess and come away with Joel not caring about her. If he didnt care why does he still want to stay and fight along side her. He is usually completely rational and cold yet here after knowing she is doomed he wants to stay. Also his initial reaction of stepping back is shock not apathy. its not a scoff its "oh christ" big difference there.

[@amac6214]

Agreed. I think he definitely cared about him, which was why she said 'there's enough here that you have to feel some sort of obligation to me." Joel wouldn't just agree to go on a cross country trek with Ellie if he had no emotional attachment to Tess. He's doing it because SHE asked him to, and I dont think it was simply out of just camaraderie. And he didn't react with that outburst "Don't you bring Tess into this, she's got nothin to do with it!" when Bill brought her up and telling her to basically 'shove it' out of simple camaraderie either.

[@justushightower8316]

He literally says this in the video

[@hgoggs]

id love to see you cover how joel and ellie’s relationship was handled in LOU2, i feel like the outrage around his death really overshadowed the story there

[@jomeotrashgod1098]

Sarah's death is one of the most human and heart breaking death scenes ever to me it's just so raw all of it hearing the pain and fear in her voice her hyperventilating and joel doing everything. He can to try and save his little girl the fear in his voice and blood on his hands it's absolutely heartbreaking

[@floatytrouty]

Even if the fireflies managed to bio-engineer a cure or atleast an immunity drug at the cost of Ellie's life, imagine what absolute power would they have over the general population and they will turn into the New FEDRA