Fear of Critiques and Attempting Photorealism - Draftsmen S1E01

Stan and Marshall discuss fearing critique but growing from it, finding a good balance with feedback, and what they think about photorealism. Marshall is teaching a workshop and Stan loves his shoes.
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#podcast #artcritique #photorealism
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CREDITS:
Hosts - Stan Prokopenko (www.stanprokopenko.com), Marshall Vandruff (www.marshallart.com/)
Production Assistance - Brandon Storer, Charlie Nicholson, Sean Ramsey (www.peoplewhodrawstuff.com), Katrina Collins (www.katrinacollins.com)
Editing - Charlie Nicholson
Audio Engineer - Brandon Storer
Intro Animation - Cody Shank (codyshank.com/)
Music Used with Permission
Intro - The Freak Fandango Orchestra
About Proko:
Instructional How to Draw videos for artists. My drawing lessons are approachable enough for beginners and detailed enough for advanced artists. My philosophy is to teach timeless concepts in an entertaining way. I believe that when you are having fun, you learn better. I take pride in producing high quality videos that you will enjoy watching and re-watching.

[@ProkoTV]

Do you love or hate getting critiqued? Also, what's yo thang?

[@danielemmanuel7068]

That pose tho

[@CashWiley]

Critique is one of the most important learning tools! I can't even imagine not loving critique, unless you enjoy sucking (ehm...you know what I mean).

[@genc6348]

Proko I don’t feel it’s a particularly marmite subject, actually. Personally, I like it but I wouldn’t say I love it because, of course, it does have some downsides.

[@danielemmanuel7068]

I accept it for what its worth and cross check it with others to see the validity of it and take action!

[@alejandrahernandez1133]

I hate to say it but I welcome it when it's from other artists. But other people the only thing I hear is, "it dosent look like the person".

[@cangrejo5238]

Walter White and Jesse Pinkman leave the meth business behind to start an art podcast All jokes aside this was pretty good i'm looking forward to the next episodes

[@maxpitchkites]

Your prediction came true

[@museumofdrawing965]

Very little art criticism is not political. One should game ones professors against each other. They are just using your work to establish their intellectual territory anyway. Your path is yours.

[@majorwind]

Was attempting something more realistic than usual and my lovely father commented "you really understand caricature". Pretty funny tbh

[@jeuyeu2789]

Ouch

[@pablobarrios7681]

That time when they try to compliment you, but it hurts you a little inside

[@cheephengxiong8790]

When you draw a circle but instead you’ve drawn a oval....

[@RetroIsaac]

Keep trying. You'll get there.

[@NightTimeDay]

Your dad has a good sense of humour, appreciate him haha

[@StormEngineer]

For f***s sake, you guys together are like an uncontrollable chemical reaction of hilariousness. I just absolutely love it. And all the while you are talking about serious and important things that can help millions if people out there. This is what "popular media" really should be like - entertaining, funny, and deep in the same time. Thank you.

[@captain4318]

I'm really not into KZbinrs or podcasts and the likes, but I found these 2 when looking up guides to help me improve my art skills. I could listen to Marshall for hours. Just putting their podcast on in the background while doing some other work, besides just entertainment value I've also gotten viable information and great artists works to look at. Fantastic stuff.

[@tb8865]

"Your proportions are off." "Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

[@KiX-K4T13]

I got into a fight in art class once. It was literally about the spelling, or rather the way I SPELLED proportion in a critique I had done. What's worse is he threw the paper away, so he could have just been fucking with me. Luke: You spelled proportion like p-o-r-portion. What is "porportion", lol? 🤣😁 Me: I didn't, I swear! 😯 Luke: Um...yes you did. 😐 Me: Well? Where's the paper? 😕 Luke: I threw it out. I'm not keeping that mispelled garbage around. 😎 Me: ffs. I did not! You lie! 😲 Luke: No, it's pretty cut and dry. You suck at spelling. 😎 Me: .............. 😵 What's funny, is we both were in a spelling bee together in the 5th grade, under a crude, cheating, swindling teacher. Oh, what a bee she was. Her daughter won. Her daughter. Fml. This was years before the art class incident. Thank you for reading. TL;DR: I got into a fight with my best friend over the spelling of the word: proportion. Not the pronunciation. The spelling.

[@walman9356]

@@KiX-K4T13 I don't mean to be another version of that friend of yours but don't you mean the *pronunciation* of "proportion"?🤔

[@Riley_187]

Katie....holy shit you crazy beach lol

[@dopekartistaddictionofart7837]

@@walman9356 that's deep hurt punch there bro 🤣

[@KiX-K4T13]

@@walman9356 No it was about the spelling. Not the pronunciation. However, I think you were making a joke, but I missed the point, so r/whoosh?

[@spacejunk2186]

"Your drawings look really flat most of the time." "LIES, DECEPTION!"

[@PeppoMusic]

- Matisse, 1940

[@pavelsokov]

Lfmao, struggle is real with intros. Love it

[@reon2x22]

Pavel Sokov introvert: hooray we said hello! Step one completed.

[@novski3175]

Marshall is like the old and happy version of Keanu Reeves.

[@Sifter2D]

-:- Timestamps -:- 7:02 Fear of Critiques 25:28 Attempting Photorealism Great podcast! It was very informative. Can't wait for the next one.

[@Wendiz]

34:57 Shoes!

[@karldarwin1253]

where's the shoe part!?!?!?

[@roodleypoodleydoodley]

o waddup again

[@xxnightmare41xx1]

Thank you!

[@nicksanford8188]

*Holds gun* Put all the episodes in the bag

[@keepyourshoesathedoor]

Nick Sanford 🥴💀💀

[@louuuuuuu950]

Lmao

[@happymoon92]

after years studying at graphic design university, and graduated, I had experienced having good critiques and bad ones. (Long comment alerts, It is really long.) Here are some my thoughts about good and bad critiques. > Bad critique is pretty judgemental. What I mean is, it simply divides one's work into two groups; good or bad, but no grey zone. Also, sometimes the reason how it divides so sounds unfair, and unpersuasive, like 'it looks bad for me. because......I don't know, I just don't like it.' (This was real critique I've heard at the university major class. One of the worst I got.) Also, the conversation flow is one-sided. We can see this when some teachers who gives critiques, no matter how the message is good or not, the conversation flow is strict and hard. It was always same way; one-sided. Teacher speaks, the student listens. Bad critique has veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery short lifetime. Both for the teachers who spoke, also for the students who listening it. When the class is over, well, nobody has one in mind. Sounds irresponsible, isn't it? But it is true. And that is why everyone in the class just looking on the phone screen waiting for the end session. The biggest matter is it often just ends there, like a dead end. No more directions, no soultions, nothing. Whenever this happens, most of the students get stuck and freezed. By after that, they lose directions. I think this is the main reason many students who don't want critiqued. 'Getting Lost.' > Then what is good critique? As I see, many people who gives Good critiques begin with analysis. They try to see and study what is going on than just feel. And then they figure out what is the matter. By that, they give us their opinion, which is good and which is messy. This sounds similar to the bad ones, but the reasons are more found and solid. The conversation flow is also much more free and lighter. Students try to explain their reasons and methods why and how they do so. Teachers listen to them and gives their opinions from their knowledge and experiences. The way how it flows is two-way or sometimes more. (But this point is pretty controversial because it has some side effects.) (Teacher speaks, Student speaks, and no body listens. just shoutful chaos remains.) The good critique lives longer than the bad one. Because the teachers try to give fruitful information, students have to keep their ears opened. And sometimes the teachers remember the feedback they gave them, so students had to be quite sharp. So They had to study by their own and manage some new feedbacks to give their teachers. This cycle makes critiques live inside both teachers and students much more longer. Most importantly, the good critique is pretty fruitful. Seldom it does bring us a dead end. Neither of teacher and student wants to have one, so they try to figure it out. by sharing the matter we face, It gives us hints to solve it. Knowledge, skills, people...etc. It brings more straight solutions and directions. >>> I think this is all I had in mind. I can be wrong, and this was written in short time. So I wish this won't disturb people who read this anyway. Thank you for reading a long comments. Thank you.

[@pentachronic]

This whole topic touches a big nerve with me. As kid I did some homework for art class and they were very good (apparently). I took them in to my teacher and she accused of cheating. This happened twice. My friend who was sitting next to me at the table where I did the drawings stood up for me (I was in a private school) but my teacher said that we were colluding! My art was very up and down since I was developing as a kid and was also very interested in science and math which were probably more "left" brained. I gave up art, thinking I had no abilities and I just had a lucky moment of observation. Forward on 40 years to discover I do actually have an ability and it's quite good. I will NEVER forgive this teacher for unreasonable criticism and being closed minded to my potential. I have missed out on something I love for a long time. This is where criticism is damaging and dangerous. PLEASE don't ever be overly critical of children. Accusations are very negative and demotivating. If you suspect a child of cheating just ask them to keep continuing and see how they develop. Maybe they copied but if you encourage, they may learn a lot and this is what the journey is all about !!! Tenacity is the key to lots of skills. GOOD feedback is key too.

[@ericfieldman]

She thought it was so good that it didn't fit in with her perception of you, which proves she attributes "good" and "bad" artist identities on people and doesn't comprehend a transfer. People gotta trust karma to sort out stuff like that when there's a benefit of the doubt, and a mind that closed probably isn't artist material, frankly

[@JeffreyXL]

"Anything other than reality becomes an opinion" Exactly my thoughts! Good stuff

[@kevin-lancheros]

Marshall is a really cool man hahaha I laughed a lot watching just the Instagram promo for this.

[@Kayseurounet]

I love listening to Marshall

[@DanAlport]

Awwwww thank you guys so much for answering my question! You two are so wonderful ^_^

[@fredflinstone6135]

Love this! Can't wait for more. You guys are very organic and it's always fun watching you to interact with one another!

[@samwizgamgie3rd828]

Yes, they taste artistic.

[@anowl1440]

I found myself actually enjoying the shoe conversation. Really enjoyable video in overall! Thanks guys!

[@Millicomics]

An owl This podcast really game my day a drive and a positive energy! It’s 8 in the morning and I’m going to go and draw 😄

[@ebinjayan]

Marshall is the cutest dad personality I’ve seen

[@tiodeleve]

Marshall talking about Kubrick, the Coen Brothers and even Robert sapolski, was Gold! What a mind! Showing that a true artist is also someone really interested in Life!

[@dorkchops]

Person: *critiques my art* me: oh wow, thanks 💕 My brain: *critiques my art* me: _pfft_ you know what, art was just a silly h-hobby anyway hehe *throws away sketchbook*

[@momoka9873]

it's literally the opposite for me lmao

[@bilalaamer30]

Is this tsundere ?

[@hossam3121]

You guys are full of joy I love it

[@lauramaue]

Stan (laughing hysterically): God DAMMIT, Marshall! Marshall (cool, calm, amused): It's a *process,* Stan! Lol, I love your guys' chemistry.

[@CerberusHydra123]

My thang is this podcast. I was listening to it while walking in the mall and I can't stop smiling and laughing. People probably thought I'm crazy

[@rimaelawar6855]

You guys are a blessing. This is proof that not every artist can teach art. Both have a knack for it and are amazing at it. I wish I had teachers like you during my art school years, which I have wasted because my teachers weren't good at teaching. But I am infinitely glad that I came across your stuff. Be it Marshall's perspective videos which helped me understand perspective for the first time in my life, or Stan's wonderful figure and anatomy courses which I have yet to practice with, but which upon watching them made me think of the human figure as a 3D object with a graceful flow of lines also for the first time in my life. You guys have uncovered a great store of knowledge for me that I knew was there but was always presented to me either without explanation or too vaguely or inaccurately, which made all the principles you simplify seem very hard and unattainable. you made this knowledge available to us and for that I cannot thank you enough. I admire you both greatly.

[@doug9418]

Critique, you never knew my dad. I'll never live it down, he's dead gone, I'm 61 and it still haunts me, got an older brother that treats his whole family like his father did. 🇺🇸 God Bless America 🇺🇸 🙏

[@appealingnamegoeshere3566]

I wanna thank you guys for a podcast that I've listened to over the course of soooooo many drawings. I can't believe it's been 4 years!

[@tacticslc4805]

I prefer watching the video version because it's funnier to see what's happening and counting how many time Marshall is drinking

[@BlondieBrutality]

A good way to go about non-realistic art critique is reviewing whether you conveyed your intended idea properly or not.

[@8bitblock]

Hear I am to rewatch all seasons again after seeing the last episode! Draftsmen the greatest art podcast ever!

[@periapsis413]

Thank you guys so much for doing this. Great chemistry and there's so few podcasts like this on art. Can't wait for the next episode

[@Real_LiamOBryan]

This is the greatest video podcast series ever! Love the chemistry, humor, and information.

[@SombraLooL]

This was a really fun and informative podcast! Great to listen to while drawing. Feedback wise, I'd personally like to see the podcast go on for longer- preferably around an hour or more, as that's how long I see most podcasts last. It'd help include time for more topics and discussion. But if that's not possible, that's totally understandable- this length still works fine. Great work to both you and Marshall as well as everyone working on the podcast. Can't wait to see more in the future.

[@carolholland1424]

I wish it were shorter. Cut out a lot of unnecessary talk, but I appreciate the advice here and the instructional videos too!

[@ProkoTV]

Season 2 will begin on April 7 and on it’s own KZbin channel… Be sure to subscribe! kzbin.info/door/fvIqreCk628yB9mp3e_ABQ

[@AngryBlondEFTW]

Alright 🥳😄

[@zeyuyuan7669]

What a great opening. It is so lovely. I appreciate all the time and effort you guys put into this. Wonderful work.

[@sandradelvecchio6894]

Really enjoyed this. Looking forward to them all.

[@chlopaczekhula3524]

Everyone’s uncomfortable

[@j.moon98]

This is amazing man. It's great listening to art teachers just talk especially you're just self-studying.

[@notrewe]

Wow love the setup, the video and audio quality plus composition are great. Love your content and thanks, helped me so much.

[@izzytheamazing]

This was amazing, the energy that you guys bring to this topic was so helpful in easing my own anxieties about critique. Thank you for doing this!

[@zachampsonartist]

this was so awesome! love the dynamics between you guys and the natural flow of conversation, thankyou!

[@clydebradley8329]

The bit about critiques, and the types of responses to them was really good food for thought. Loving this series so far. Never knew I needed something like this, thanks guys!

[@oxanalim8819]

Stan, y'know, you aren't my most loved youtuber. But one can't deny the amazing editing, production value (and hosts) that you bring to your channel, thus the world. Keep these up, and congrats on the Shorty nomination.

[@nopoprostu]

I have just discovered this podcast and I am amazed! You guys are such positive creatures it gives me such pleasure to watch and listen to you! Thank you for that :)

[@WISTO]

This is my THANG! Great information, friendly banter, good voice quality, good humor! Can't wait for episode 2

[@davz905]

Rewatching all the magnificent episodes. Yeah!

[@chadphilander6252]

How am I only finding this now?? Really great talk. Love the idea of adoptive art parents. I cant wait to get to ep 5. Keep it up Stan! Awesome stuff!!

[@havefundrawing]

Great episode! I love art-related podcasts. Keep up the good work!

[@sofiasofia8726]

This is an awesome episode! I love when you discuss things applicable to both art AND real life.

[@DD-nc3zx]

Thats true, what the old master say. You are gifted to explain complicated things quick and easy to understand

[@robotomato5736]

I really love this podcast. Kudos to everyone involved!

[@natelittle3878]

I think the idea of the cliff and the umbrella combination is the perfect analogy. If your umbrella is too closed when you step off the cliff, you're going to crash. If the umbrella is too "open" it will take longer to get where you want to go.

[@mechahika]

Proko, you can call it DraftCast😂

[@margkruzel9104]

Excellent. Love your chemistry and the wealth of info. Looking forward to more. Fun and educational. Score!

[@TC-dh7zi]

This was as good as I expected! Great job guys now lets just make it 3x longer!

[@YokaiKage]

2023 and this still hits.

[@mica4977]

I'm in a stage of my art journey where I'm comfortable seeking out critic. This past year's adventure through KZbin's art community has expanded my knowledge, motivated me and brought about my experimentation with new mediums that I found a new love for! Am more aware of the many aspects I must practice upon and have a clearer path of how to do so. My primary hurdle is becoming more social & seeking out a community willing to give proper critique rather than purely wholesome positivity.

[@chayemor]

I absolutely love this vibe. EDIT: My THANG is now binge listening to this while I draw, and switching screens to replay a laughing moment so I can also see it. Freaking awesome podcast!!! Hell yes.

[@Rikasuuart]

I'm waiting for next episode. Thank you Stan and Marshall :)

[@artwithalaska4852]

I REALLY loved it! I just left the podcast running in the background and had a lot of fun drawing! So thanks for that!

[@Piouskitune]

This is great you two! This series can really give artist everywhere an enriched experience in learning about art professionally. This has so much potential to take on so many forms. It would be neat to continually have guest artists to give their take on the questions we have in addition to your own.

[@paschendaele8786]

This was so entertaining to watch!. Looking forward for the next episode.

[@Daemonpool65]

Can't get enough of this podcast.... So I'm back to episode 1.

[@arunajaires9611]

Hi! I really enjoyed this episode. I laughed a lot! Love the chemistry and humor between Stan and Marshall. I wanted to share my opinion about receiving critique. I learned about myself that I welcome critique if I asked for feedback from someone I respect and trust. When critique aims to improve my skills. I always doubt myself at art. I practice a lot. Constantly trying to be better with each artwork. But sometimes my mind plays tricks on me. My inner critic tells me that everything in my art is wrong. I only see my mistakes and don’t acknowledge the huge effort I have put to my work. Now I’m trying to be not judgmental to my own artworks.

[@eszterambrus5949]

I really enjoyed this podcast guys:) I learned a great deal from both of you, and it was so nice to see you in a 'non-instructional' way too. It still has a great educational value, views and ideas are just as important as draftsmanship questions, so I'm looking forward to hearing more:) Also my thing recently is making random photos on the street of things that are somehow exciting (odd shapes, unusual lights, etc) and using them as reference for practice.

[@zacharyhorvath3615]

38:43 "this is my style" - loved the pained expression!

[@nealbiederman4664]

Yes!!! Proko AND Marshall in one room 😄 never been happier.

[@marzkilljoy731]

Hello Stan & Marshall! I always get sick to my stomach getting critiqued.. because I spend so much of my own energy critiquing my own work until its completed that its another blow to my confidence in my artistic process. What's my thang? Finding this podcast! I'm so glad it's been years since this was posted so I can binge these!

[@Millicomics]

This concept is amazing, it was great to listen and the decor is beautiful. I can’t wait for more!

[@YoshiMario69]

it´s been a month without Draftsmen and it feels like an eternity, so here I am for the re-watch!

[@smiley_worth]

Love how the years goes by and these two is still continuing to make Draftsmen Podcast

[@pikira2246]

This podcast has enlightened me. I listening to every bit of this podcast and I like drawing while listening to it.

[@danaobera4207]

Your (and your staffs) critique are always welcome, Stan. I'm very picky on taking critique. It's like medicine; it needs to be in the right portion and at the right time.

[@ZILtoid1991]

I also really "like" those subjective opinions dressed up as objective critique. "You should copy Disney/Pixar/Dreamworks instead of doing your own take on anime/manga." "You should attempt more realism." "You should be more stylistic." Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. The hardest part for me was gesture, which I still don't fully understand, and I've a unique method of drawing stickmen with more curved arms and legs (for now) with relative importance paid to keep it in proportion. Every artists say it's useful for different things: many use it to quickly analyze pose dynamics, many use it to study proportions, some even use them as the basic guidelines for their finished art. In general I have a bigger fear of messing up than anything else, leaving me with unfinished projects, and having to take off time from it for a week or so before the final strokes. I often had to be twice as good at something than my own agegroup in my schools to get some recognition, mostly thanks to me sucking horribly at sports, which was a big deal thanks to my country was once good at football...

[@AspLode]

This podcast speaks to my soul.

[@kia-yj3vp]

I am here after the final episode. I will miss you guys.

[@Hoswari1]

Looking back after a year and I cn see how nervous you both were at the start even tho I didn't realize it at first. You've improved so much!

[@gabrielstoinski6108]

This podcast is SO GOOD

[@pigmentpeddler5811]

I somehow forgot about this podcast - absolutely love Stan and Marshall, keeping me company through the sloggiest parts of my work ;)

[@ozn3258]

Perfect, I enjoy listen podcast like that while i'm drawing ! Now I'm waiting for the next ones !

[@kamiko8021]

wow teachers have it tough. a big thank you to all the art teachers out there we appreciate it👏

[@albinothunderbuns1997]

Constructive criticism is priceless. Personal insults are worthless.

[@marymcandrew7667]

I'm so glad I just found these episodes and will catch up watching any that are out there. I'm finding it hard to get focused on my art and get down to business of just doing it, procrastinating by gardening etc. This will help me, I'll listen to you guys while I work. I used to like getting critiques in College and as a teacher giving a critique; I would try to keep my personal opinion out of it and talk about what was accomplished with the work, did it meet criteria etc? I like talking about the work in design terms and drawing terms, how well did it accomplish these things? This takes the personal "I don't like it" or "I like it" out of the conversation. I can't wait to hear more about picking our "Art Parents", and wish I could take your class....Beatrix Potter is my hero, love her work. I also love the illustrators you mentioned for the class and have you heard of Molly Brett? Another favorite of mine. Cheers!

[@MabinogiSheep]

Been listening on Spotify, I still come by for the video 😆

[@bono3d]

Some things that seem obvious but would highlight about criticisms are also: 1. Just as important as knowing how to receive good criticism is knowing how to make the most of it by making a correction to your work right away to make sure you learn from it; 2. In a job that needs a lot of criticism, prefer to choose only the most important one.

[@StenghaberObzen]

Nearly shat my pants at the thought of PROKO + PODCAST. SICK.

[@fenriel4238]

Two minutes in I already love the concept, artists helping other artists and inspiring each other ! Excited to watch this !

[@ninemetal]

Really enjoyed this. A fun listen that brought up some good points.

[@theartysquid]

Loved it ! Got me chuckling a couple times, so it's a great atmosphere to learn about art. I hope you guys do more of these in the future ! (Also Marshall would be a stellar shoes salesman ;p)

[@MotionFriend]

60 seconds in, already giggling alongside you silly boys. Adorable. Looking forward to the show 😊

[@godserg7062]

love this !!!!, your advise is amazing. cant wait for more.My thang is listening to Prokos voice to go to sleep 😘🤣

[@MichaelWarthStudios]

So great, I've been waiting for this. I personally love good feedback if it's based on a critique from someone I respect - I really liked Marshall's umbrella analogy about too open and too closed. I'm open to critique from the right people - people I'd study from. So, my thang is making representational oil paintings and I love to draw. I have a podcast centered around art, I blog, and I have a regular job that helps pay the bills when my art doesn't sell as well 😂

[@eyeyeye-fm9oo]

Love it, can't wait for more

[@Chrisostomos]

This was excellent. More please. Oh and my thang is listening to podcasts while I work

[@jamesnoah9573]

10 mins watching the video I was already sure I'd watch this entire podcast!

[@luuhzavala2786]

This is great, I almost wish this was longer!

[@viethoang907]

Stan and Marshall are great duos as always :D I'd love to see time stamps in the description of the video. It's extremely useful if you want to watch a specific part of the podcast.

[@LeoPlaw]

More of these podcasts please. Looking forward to the next ones.

[@JohnKramer-artist]

Great team, entertaining and enlightening

[@thedabblingwarlock]

I wish I'd had listened to this about 10 years ago when I was in college. Well, listened to it without the fragile ego I had then.