Female Objectification in Media - A Persona 5 Case Study | Salari

[@Salari]

Hey folks! Thanks so much for watching, if you're unfamiliar with the franchise then I hope you still found it interesting since it's a topic that applies to media as a whole. The next video is going to be more of a social commentary one, I'll let you know in due time. I messed up the title at the end a bit, so I wanted to say again that my good friend Kurashu is responsible for that AMAZING opening, so please give him your love. Also, a reminder that if you want to support me via Patreon, any amount goes a very long way: www.patreon.com/Salari Lots of love to you all, I hope you enjoy the holidays, and stay safe. See you in the new year!

[@agatazietek9098]

@Mr Mistah how is that extremist lol

[@MrMadmaggot]

@@agatazietek9098 He's trying to force his morals into others... - HE shits on Capitalism. - He can't even tell the difference between corporativism and capitalism.

[@agatazietek9098]

@@MrMadmaggot you can criticize capitalism and not be a communist, you know that?

[@MrMadmaggot]

@@agatazietek9098 How can you do that lol ahahahaha

[@agatazietek9098]

@@MrMadmaggot if you think "criticizing something" is equal to thinking "everything about it is entirely bad with no redeeming parts and we should get the polar opposite instead" then you're not mature enough to talk about those subjects. I despise how "modern day capitalism" works, but communism is even more fucked up so I wouldn't exchange it. It's not that hard to comprehend.

[@aztektheultimatewoman]

Recognizing flaws in something you love is the most important part of healthy media criticism, and it’s honestly just sad that there are people out there who don’t recognize that.

[@nunothedude]

Agree

[@lopez.jacinto.6726]

@Mr Mistah wtf is wrong with you?

[@maadtee6281]

@Mr Mistah wow are you fine in the head or something

[@luiss428]

@Mr Mistah idk but its usually healthy and of good intention to question everything

[@returnedtomonkey8886]

Sorry but doom eternal is perfection.

[@sartenquemada1101]

"I'm both respecting your femininity by acknowledging your empowerment, BUT asserting my superiority by objectifying you anyways"

[@akachiokafor2338]

I got a flashbacks to the Fairly Odd Parents Episode where Timmy's dad comes in with a battering ram

[@sartenquemada1101]

@@akachiokafor2338 haha yeah i was referencing that

[@sarika3689]

Lmao this really how it feels

[@pandaexpress7673]

spot on lmao

[@kurokun07]

damn that hnk pic looking real good

[@senpainoticedyou6182]

Even tho the game tackles serious issues, I don't think any "chapter" was as dark, or struck as deep as Shiho's Case.

[@agatazietek9098]

I agree, I kinda felt underwhelmed by the later villains compared to the initial one

[@nikewalker96]

Completely with you there. I was so invested and hated kamoshida because his actions felt personal to the main characters. Other villains after that didn't leave as much as an impact imho

[@MylesB93-]

Agreed. I guess Futaba's arc is also pretty dark? Definitely not as much as Shiho's though

[@andrelima4125]

Agree, I think stakes felt diffrerent with Kamoshida, but also cuz it was the first. I mean Futaba's situation is terrible, Haru's is a soft shiho But the whole situation with Makoto and the fly man, expecially with the host that was picking up girls and scamming and idk if implied drugging them ,,,yikes

[@shawklan27]

@@nikewalker96 the other ones felt like Saturday morning cartoon villains compared to kamashida who felt real and grounded. I can totally see why he's the game's most iconic villain plus since the party was very small it added to that more determined feeling of bringing him down.

[@SapphicKnits]

Something that was only touched on lightly that I think is super important is the all too common and rampant sexualization of minors, especially high school girls.

[@cosmiccat26]

Ugh very true unfortunately

[@mikanchan322]

It's so normalized at this point in anime/cartoons and games :((

[@purplesdiamonds]

Sadly, it’s super common in anime, video games and stuff like that, and I love anime and video games but it’s sad,

[@davidalvarez5659]

It's something that has been slowly normalized in media; I mean, many American Teen drama series feature underaged characters indulged in questionably sexualized behaviors.

[@123armyoftwo]

Depends on the genre really. Alot of anime are targeted towards young teens but seinen or adult anime has little to no fanservice

[@thecheck968]

I think reclaiming your own sexuality can be a powerful message. But the fact that Ann is in shock at her outfit exposes that wasn’t really the intention. Shouldn’t a character *choose* how to express themselves if their arch centers around reclaiming their own agency??

[@natevans8024]

right. also notice how often people conflate "sexuality" with "looking sexy according to the male gaze" which is extremely infuriating imo.

[@Allen-yv5xg]

I mean her outfit IS a manifestation of her own rebellion. It was the purpose and was built into her character design and character development and the themes around her arc and the arc of the game.

[@vivvy_0]

@@Allen-yv5xg so why does she hate it then?

[@selmk8240]

They could of easily spun it as ann being confident in the suit and saying "My sexuality is on my terms and not yours." and it would of been way more tonally consistent. But noo, ENF beats narrative apparently.

[@Allen-yv5xg]

@@vivvy_0 she doesn’t, she’s briefly embarrassed. But was designed with her character and these themes completely in line and it makes up most her in game kit, from crocodile tears and sexy technique. If you think Ann hates it you have to dismiss that this is their own rebellion manifested. Even Queen (and Fox don’t quote me though) think their costumes are a bit eccentric. Still doesn’t change it’s a physical manifestation of their rebellion. Like they explain this in the game why do you think her momentary flustered-ness means this is something she doesn’t embrace about herself

[@gokueatsomanyburgers1911]

my general rule of thumb is the fanservice is bad when the female characters are shown to be uncomfortable/unconsenting to it and when the male characters go AWOOGA BIG BOOBA. nothing wrong with a female character showing skin when the story's being normal about it

[@kyleiori7569]

same

[@aduckinlingerie]

"AWOOGA BIG BOOBA"

[@salj.5459]

Liked this comment just for "AWOOGA BIG BOOBA"

[@thisismiles2484]

Hi do y'all know what song that is at the 9:31 mark

[@TechBlade9000]

But can we keep the simping cat

[@rsarin18]

I will never get over the fact that even after everything that went down in the Kamoshida arc, this game still gives you the option to date your teacher

[@Peasham]

Hear that subtle mandolin? That's textbook panderin'!

[@kaisarr7632]

The game's writers are unaware of there own themes

[@kaoru9829]

I barely see people talk about this, thank you!! I found the option to date adults in this game to be super uncomfortable. Like, did we not just play an entire game about going against corrupt adults as teenagers abused by an unjust system?

[@itsthedk986]

@@kaoru9829 its a game made in japan.... culture is different regardless of whether its right or wrong its hard to change

[@theheavenlyfb4071]

The difference is context. Kamoshida was actively sexually assaulting female students and those students gave no consent, meanwhile the option to be with Kawakami is completely consensual which is probably why they don't bring too much focus to it. Outside of that though, considering that they had the Kamoshida scandal it is pretty surprising that they don't bring it up when going for Kawakami.

[@adiazrue5776]

Honestly, if only Ann first impression to her Phantom Thief costume is proud and acceptance I will accept that moment as empowerment. Her heart did make that outfit for her as her rebellious form because she likes villainess character after all. But because she seem uncomfortable wearing her custome, I get uncomfortable too for her lmao.

[@creativebeetle]

I agree entirely. It doesn't help that she basically does nothing for the rest of the story either. Like at least give her some empowering speeches or clear autonomy over the rest of the cast, using her character traits to prove a point. Instead they just use her for fan-service and to ask obvious questions so the rest of the characters can summarise the story so far.

[@duppady5319]

She didn't get uncomfortable, as she says herself she feels embarrassed and gets over it pretty quick, if I remember a bit later ryuji asked her about it and I felt it was pretty clear she didn't care. She's not thw only one as well, Makoto after her awakening said that her outfit was a bit much but she didn't hate it. I remember there being a side conversation you could hear while exploring where Ann and Makoto talks about how they both think their outfits are rather out there but never is there a moment where she feels uncomfortable about her outfit, other then when you are in vents where she warns ryuji not to look forward or get a kick to the face, which of course she would say in that situation, any of the girls would

[@GeteMachine]

It might have worked better if she was at least surprised by it but then gave it meaning herself for her to grow into it consciously, but the transition into that middle of her character development is missing if not regressive.

[@diarandomized]

this this SO MUCH THIS! nothing wrong with a female character having revealing clothing when shes COMFORTABLE in it

[@sharku8417]

@@diarandomized it's a fictional character, why do you care so much?

[@WishIWuzKaji]

P5 is my favorite game, and Ann is my favorite character, but I still think this is spot on. I actually think the disconnect between Ann's design and her character is exacerbated by the anime trope of fetishizing bashfulness. Like, Ann has this whole dominatrix look going on with her whip and everything, and that makes perfect sense if her story is about reclaiming her sexuality and owning her power, and would work well with her modeling subplot. But any time the other main characters look at her sexually she just falls back on the anime cliche of being embarrassed and angry. Imagine if she were the sexually aggressive member of the group, pushing the boy's buttons and teasing them, making them uncomfortable. That would make way more sense for the whole dominatrix motif, and just make her a more fun and interesting character, but the game never goes that route.

[@retrograderiding3486]

There is a little bit of that in the beach outing after Futaba's arc where, in the animated cutscene, Ann laughs at how attracted Ryuji is to her and teases him about it. I thought it was a nice subversion, especially compared to how that exact same scene played out it the previous game, but some more of that would have definitely been nice.

[@theultimateshipperf.l.1186]

I agree, I hated how they made her embarresed and shy. Why not have her be confident and more dominant? That's waaay hotter and empowering

[@alesia4591]

@@theultimateshipperf.l.1186 So it is again about beeing hotter for the guy. Somehow you say she shoud be more confident but the way you say it makes it sound like confident for the guys not for her

[@theultimateshipperf.l.1186]

@@alesia4591 Not really, like them knowing they are hot and teasing the guys but actually not giving them any shit.

[@BARALover96]

My main annoyance is that she used for her sexuality by the group instead of her doing it herself for the group.

[@TheSummelBaerli]

Oh, this was so good. I don't mind sexualized character designs as long as they fit the character. For example Dorothea in FE three houses makes sense as she is a singer who values her looks. But in the case of Ann in P5, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Her whole arc is undermined by the way the game frames and styles her. I appreciate your nuanced take here, great work as always!

[@jj6148]

I love the FE3H character designs lol.

[@TheSummelBaerli]

@@jj6148 oh yes, definitely! 😍 They so effectively convey what the character is all about, too.

[@ciriknockoff5738]

Yes, I think sexy designs have a time and place. They gotta fit the narrative and the character. This is why I always kinda liked Bayonetta's design even if it is completely ridiculous, she fucking owns it

[@jeschoofs]

@@ciriknockoff5738 i think one of the reasons bayonetta’s design actually works is how they own it. They don’t put in anime tropes and let bayo just be a confident badass

[@PaulM68322]

Her design fits her perfectly, the whole point of the metaverse is to show who you really want to be (your darkest desires) in reality Anne is shy and timid, but she knows she's beautiful and her darekst desire is to use her beauty to seduce and dominate, hence the dominatrix suit. That was the whole point of her accepting who she was so she could fight along side you. Clearly you along with the creator of this Video missed the premise entirely.

[@Sen-droit]

It's kinda funny how you voice all my exact thoughts and feelings, though not about Persona but about One Piece

[@asri1361]

@jaca van heesch most female in shonen anime are written terriblely, aot is prabably my only exception, and naruto has the worst female I've seen

[@user-gk6nt5gi5n]

@@asri1361 she isn't written terribly it's just the character design

[@maadtee6281]

@jaca van heesch Clair from claymore, shinbou from demon slayer and Adelina from young elites are better

[@maadtee6281]

@@asri1361 you forgot demon slayer, promised neverland and I doubt snk is shounen series is way too dark and political to be shounen

[@jennywhat6108]

@@maadtee6281 creator of demon slayer is a woman. So it's no surprise that she writes her female characters well

[@jiminfested]

It sucks that you have to justify how much you liked P5 to be able to criticize it but here we are

[@linkster6478]

That's what happens when you want to critique any part of weeb/nerd culture and have fun doing it. If the fanboys don't think you know enough about the thing you're criticizing, they'll get upset and accuse you of trying to ruin what they love. When in reality, that thing is getting viewed differently then how they view it. (Edit: Let me clarify for the people that I've unintentionally offended that I was referring to the toxic fans of a franchise.)

[@unknownredacted3513]

@@linkster6478 Or or just listen to this *There are idiots that try to claim they love anime or manga simply to try and avoid backlash and as a reuslt make half assed reviews that makes the work look more worse than it does* Not saying this review is like that. Just talking in general

[@ultraagilao4026]

@@unknownredacted3513 I’m sure that happens but that doesn’t erase the fact that what Linkster is saying is very true...

[@bindyakiren6365]

@@linkster6478 nerds lol it’s funny when you think about it cause anime airs normally in japan lol

[@unknownredacted3513]

@@ultraagilao4026 True however that is every piece of media not just anime or manga When you review a piece of work, you can't "half ass it" unless you are actively fucking around (like saying "oh since this romance show don't have any combat, it suxs 0/10")

[@crankyartist111]

It's like what I said on a seperate video. Because the main characters are attractive and are "good guys", it's seen as okay and comedic for them to be disrespectful towards her. If we're told by the game "no this character is bad and creepy for doing this", then those characters are seen as bad even though the good guys and the bad guys behave the same way towards the women. In other words, when a bad guy/unattractive guy looks down a womans shirt, its made into him being creepy and evil. When a good guy/attractive guy looks down a womans shirt, it's played for laughs.

[@theultimateshipperf.l.1186]

Also if a girl does anything perverted its fine cause its a girl. I like kawakami but the fact that you can date her and its fines is bs

[@crankyartist111]

@@theultimateshipperf.l.1186 Yes! That one bothers me too. Just because the roles are reversed does not make it okay.

[@verybarebones]

@@theultimateshipperf.l.1186 same standard though, when a pretty girl does it is fine, if an older less attractive woman does it it's disgusting. It's ok as long as the event is attractive to the male viewer.

[@theultimateshipperf.l.1186]

@@verybarebones pretty much except that never happens because girls in anime are always attractive

[@raidoukuzonoha883]

There teens... shut up people grow a fucking brain before shouting these words when it isn’t the case

[@Shazzner]

Thank you! The "mixed messages" seems to be a staple in Persona games, and video games in general honestly. The fact that the player in P5 narratively is treated as someone fighting the status quo and yet ultimately it ends up just correcting "aberrations" of the status quo with everything going back to more or less "normal" in the end with no real commentary on it.

[@agatazietek9098]

I was honestly confused at the ending, I had no idea what the game was trying to say. Of course, it could show how both not challenging the status quo AND using the "wrong methods" or too drastic ones is bad, but I'm not sure that was the message - I think whatever it is, it got muddled a bit. The closest thing for me was that final palace in original P5 and how it represents the Sloth, but I haven't really played Royal so idk how about that.

[@chronicallyunstable]

How is it a "staple" of the series? The only game with blatant examples of such I can think of is Persona 5, as presented in this (and a few other ones) video.

[@SpawnOfYogSothoth2387]

They really conveyed the message better in Royal, especially with Sae’s character. The social reform they talk about isn’t really about the palaces and all, but you can see it more clearly in the confidants (especially Ohya). Also, what changed in after the last palace (Mementos) was that people were more aware and proactive in seeking change. They don’t show that much in vanilla P5, but, in Royal, after Maruki’s palace, you see the difference in interactions. They didn’t actually reform society because that’s up to society itself, they just created the conditions for it

[@Peasham]

A "staple"? Not at all. Call it tropes, call it bad writing, but there wasn't much of a disconnect in any of the prior Personas' themes. The problem with P5 is that it wasn't trying to make a good story or characters that made sense, it was trying to make story and characters that appeal to everyone.

[@junamboqcg2369]

@@Peasham *cough* Kanji *cough*

[@rexmon2592]

I definitely agree, Persona 5 presents different serious themes to the player but never actually goes anywhere with them. Its mainly just a facade to make the game look “controversial and taking on serious themes.

[@howiehiew]

Yeah, It's been a while since I played the game but I think I remember the Phantom Thieve's whole beef with the big bad was that he was taking away people's freedom and autonomy by changing reality for them or whatever. That would have been a good point for some introspection on how we've been doing that exact same thing by changing people's hearts and stuff. It would have been cool, we gotta shoot a god in the face and stuff so we probably didn't have enough time for that.

[@unknownredacted3513]

@Angelina Fang See I agree with you for P5 palace but P5R is where I disagree Spoilers of course We do see Maruki's side of the "everyone deserves happiness". The first week of Third Semester is spent seeing how Maruki made everyone's life so much better and we see that everyone is enjoying it. Hell the only reason they started to doubt the reality is because of Joker who plants that seed of doubt in them. Even after they are free from his control, they don't completely disagree with Maruki and his ideals. The only one who does this is Akechi which from vanilla P5 makes sense as ultimately Maruki is forcing everyone in this world and Akechi don't (or at least no longer) likes being controlled. They simply disagree because a)he is taking away humanity's free will like Yaldy b)people want to work for their goal. Strip of them of that and they become senseless beings They even brought the idea that sometimes the pain is just that unbearable during PT and Maruki's final talk so it isn't like the game isn't commenting about that idea. And the lesson you ulimately learn from the Third Semester (while not being realistic) is somewhat inspiring. You keep going hoping for a better tomorrow and if the pain is unbearable, get friends who will help carry that burden with you Or at least that is what I think

[@unknownredacted3513]

@Angelina Fang A)I mean again Pt didn't oppose them him like they did with Yaldy. They agreeed with him but his methods were questionable at best. With this in mind, it is obvious that they were conflicted about the decision but ulimately choose the path or hardship Also what do you think the theme is? I (personally) think it is about to take control over your own life and not allow society to control yours (unless u know you being an absolute dick then yea stop being that)

[@frogglen6350]

"But never goes anywhere with them" Did...you pay attention to the game? They clearly take action to fix the multiple problems presented. But I guess the left can't be satisfied with fixing solutions

[@somasora7]

I wouldn’t necessarily say it doesn’t go anywhere with its themes. The themes of Rebellion and Justice are quite thoroughly explored, as well as more minor issues of mental health etc. It does seem to straight up forget itself sometimes though, and undercut its own messages, which is a big shame

[@faultyexposition]

When you lay it out like this it really is a 'nice guy' fantasy: You get to save women, who you desire, from bad guys who are dickheads or even abusive, and then you get to continue to ogle them guilt free. Having said this you play a teenage boy and I can't say it didn't feel genuine to my experience as one; as unfortunate as that is to admit.

[@snailart9214]

I appreciate how honest this comment is. I think that's some good introspection there, and I didn't even think about the perspective of a teenage boy - even though arguably that's the main demographic aLL GAMES ARE PUSHED TO. Especially IN JAPAN. Which is maybe all the more reason to be critical of this "nice guy" trope. It's dehumanizing to women and sort of traps dudes in an unrealistic worldview - which might inhibit them from actually having healthy relationships with women.

[@bobeanie5642]

It’s even worse when you consider the fact that you can date your little sister figure, Futaba. Kinda unsettling ngl. And that moment where you have Ana naked in the other room and they make it a big deal. Creepy af ngl

[@mikei6605]

no wonder so many fans of this game are incels. The game's theme would be better portrayed if the protagonist was female.

[@bobeanie5642]

@@mikei6605 Facts! Maybe then we won’t have a 30-year-old as a love interest while playing a minor! 🥰 Wait- Maybe I’m asking for too much

[@squirtbrainz1219]

@@mikei6605 Ahem, Ken as a romance option for the p3 female protag

[@ObaREX]

As awesome as the Personal series is... It does sometimes have elements of a harem anime. Which is legit the genre I hate most.

[@angela_merkeI]

It gets worse: Harem Isekai. Why not take the worst of both worlds!

[@xhmbx9548]

Wdym harem is dope af lol

[@maadtee6281]

@@angela_merkeI don't you mean isekai cause they mostly tend to be just harem its a shame can't see bros enjoying the new world other characters being better then the main characters in isekai cause only the mc is better and the females are just waifu bait and nothing else imagine if demon slayer was an isekai zenitsu and innosuke and all the other male demon slayer corps and demons won't be competent at all and be hated and tanjiro will be able to save every female demon and make his sister his wife and marry every female that's how bad isekai is

[@maadtee6281]

@@xhmbx9548 lol nope it's trash same tired troupes would be better if it was a side male characters reacting to the harem mc or a group of guys who were the so called "bad" guys before they were exposed beg the mc to teach them how to get girls and the series will be these guys naively getting in the way of the female characters or something else but it ends up same formula best harem in my opinion is twin yandere sisters that love Johnny Bravo look alike but they are side characters in that webtoon

[@angela_merkeI]

@@maadtee6281 Somewhere, in a parallel universe, this universe this version of demon slayer exists and it's frightening. Honestly though, not all isekai are useless trash, although most are. From the top of my head I can name Inuyasha, Drifers and Re:zero (yes, it's a bit haremy, but it's still good). There are others too probably.

[@povilasl5383]

Amazing, but I wish you had mentioned the fact that Ann's knocked down animation makes it so her butt is up and not on the ground how it logically should be when someone is lying on the ground

[@marie-franceFortin]

She wearing high boots with high heels. When wearing high heels you are litteraly always falling forward, and the boot make the knee less flexible. The fact that she fell butt up and not on the ground is logical. But, she should have stop her fall with her hand resulting in a less "sexualized pose".

[@povilasl5383]

@@marie-franceFortin ah okay, good to know, Ive never worn heels so thank you for the insight, great comment!

[@Hanakothemizumiko]

Yusuke is another character that doesn't fall on his butt, iirc he stays on all fours.

[@raynethescribe2772]

@@marie-franceFortin yusukes is basically the same except he did catch himself and is on all fours ...tho having anns butt up in the air is.. which logical, still pretty... weird...

[@tofire2261]

Honestly, all the writing in the game is so... bad, for lack of a better term. Another example of "the writing says this but the game does the opposite" is Ryuji. He s has an abusive father, Kamoshida broke his leg which made him unable to do the one thing he was good at, this incident made him an outcast as nobody wanted to associate with him anymore because he dared speak up, and then... none of this matters, to the game, because he s the joke character. We get a scene where he sacrifices his life to save his friend group, and then gets beat up unconscious and left in an alleyway in the middle of the night by his friends becaus he dared to worry them. And this is treated as a joke. We should be laughing that this character that s been abused all his life is being absued some more because slapstick funny haha? Atlus just doesn t know how to write deeper, more upsetting themes without shitting on them later on. They don t have any sort of respect for people that went through stuff like harassment or abuse, and it shows \/(シ)\/

[@GreenWolf2k]

I will say a lot of the criticisms this game gets in terms of story writing I could easily counter or give a good reason why they wrote it hat way, but that scene where they leave his ass on the street still makes no sense to me! I get it, it's a common thing in anime but why wouldn't they even give you an option to pick up Ryuji or something like stopping the girls?!

[@miamor2624]

This kind of issue has been present since Persona 3, as far as I know. There's a part in the third game where Yukari drags Minato and Junpei to an alley filled with dangerous people to get some information about Fuuka's disapearance, even though Junpei warned her time and time again that it was a bad idea. And then Junpei gets punched in the stomach and Yukari barely does anything to help him (she backs away, actually). They all would have ended in the hospital if it wasn't for Shinji. And that's it. Both Minato, and especially Junpei, had all the right to be angry and demand an apology from her for being so reckless, but once it was over they never touch the subject ever again (I'm aware both Minato and Junpei knew the risks of going, but Yukari didn't take any responsibility for what happened, and she was being the insistent one). I love Persona's stories and themes, but it fails at noticing and polishing the little details. It acknowledges and tackles the main themes of each game in the story, but then you notice things like the sexualization and the characters beating one of their friends or even endangering them, almost as if they didn't really care about their "friends" at all, despite what they say in the main story (like Ren just watching Ryuji getting dragged by two random strangers in Shinjuku). Moments like these don't only affect the way the games approach their core themes, but it also says a few things about the characters and their relationships... and they are not necessarily good things.

[@tofire2261]

@@miamor2624 man i never seen anything of p4 and 3, but i sure am not surprised similar stuff happens in them. Also, you re right on the nose. These lil moments show (regardless of the intention of the writers) that the characters are just... not that good friends in the first place. I ve never truly felt like the group in p5 were friends tbh, just this vague feeling that they re not super close, and these little moments show it best.

[@allenharper2928]

A hormonal teenage boy... Obsessed with girls... Oh now that's just completely unbelievable!🙄

[@Jdudec367]

Nah most of the writing in the game is good really. That one scene is the exception though, most are not like that. Atlus does know how to write deeper, more upsetting themes without shitting on them later as seen with Ann, Futaba, and of course Akechi. They do have respct for people like that and it is not hard to see.

[@imaginingdefeat]

Here’s my issue with this. The game goes out of its way to declare its stance on sexual assault and the lack of agency/objectification of women with these trite and cartoonish examples (powerful businessman threatens prostitution, arranged marriage, perverted teacher, etc) - situations that are uncontroversially, objectively gross and are essentially low-hanging fruit to pick on and label as bad. And yet, when the seemingly mundane, (unfortunately) everyday acts of misogyny crop up, which are equally hurtful and infinitely more realistic than the other scenarios, it can’t be bothered to condemn them. In fact, they’re played for laughs. They’re wanting to have their cake and eat it too, earning pats on the back for doing the absolute bare minimum (rape = bad!!) but not having to anger their largely male fan base regarding more nuanced discussions on sexism. It’s so incredibly easy to regard yourself as a “good guy” because you find characters like the volleyball coach disgusting. It is much, much harder to recognize “smaller” events like Ann’s male friends conspicuously ogling her bare legs for the insidious and pervasive wrongs that they are...and maybe even come to terms with the fact that they’ve been complicit in the same situations themselves.

[@dippyfresh5130]

this is a really great and spot-on analysis

[@seiwarriors]

Ogling is not a bad thing when a person is hot.

[@mcmarkmarkson7115]

Look at these people. A prime example of stupidity. Beauty gets attraction, it's simple biology. Being disgusted at people that find beauty attractive can only be possible with a personality disorder if not flat-out jealousy by ugly people not getting the same attention. This only gets more pathetic when you realize that women objectify men all the time but you NEVER hear about that because it does not get the same views/attention to your channel. This is just hilarious considering the content of the video in this case.

[@imaginingdefeat]

@@mcmarkmarkson7115 The only reason I'm responding to this is so no one else attempts to grasp onto your flimsy pretense of an "argument," and makes this reply section even worse. It's abundantly clear that you have no intention of approaching this with any intellectual honesty or willingness to learn or have a discussion. Ignoring the insults, classic jealousy "argument," and good ol' whataboutism (God forbid we have *one fucking conversation* about women without some man trying to insert themselves into it. I don't go looking for videos about toxic masculinity and complain that female beauty standards aren't being discussed, nor do I walk into breast cancer charity fundraisers and ask the staff why they aren't raising awareness for prostate cancer), you have completely misconstrued what I wrote. I never said people couldn't find beautiful people attractive. I never said I was disgusted by people that did so. There's a clear difference between admiring someone's beauty, and staring at them to the point at which they get uncomfortable, feel objectified or singled out, or even violated, as I absolutely would if a "friend" sat behind me and stared down my shirt. A little reminder, this is all in the wake of the character experiencing sexual assault. Jesus Christ. Finally, you know what else is "simple biology?" The urge to procreate. Unless you're walking around every day fucking every female body you see (which I sure as hell hope you aren't), that is a wonderful example of the modern human brain triumphing over its basest evolutionary desires. Beauty gets attraction. Sure. But is that attraction expressed as unwanted attention? Is it seen as more important than, or mutually exclusive to other traits, like intelligence? Is it considered a man's "right" to admire in any way he chooses, and be considered a compliment? ~ just a few of the angles you miss when you assume you know everything

[@sepbla178]

Lily Homma you have been triggered! Lol

[@MarteaniArt]

I give P5 a certain amount of leeway because it also strikes a balance of "teens being dumb teens" that I think is often fine. Yes there is dissonance at times between messaging and narrative, but to me the worst points involve Kawakami. Her entire backstory is losing her previous teaching position by getting too close to a male student. The first section of the game is about the potential power abuse dynamics between students and teachers. And then they make Kawakami a romance option! For her male student! Who is also hiring her on the side to be his sexy maid! Her entire story is about why that is a terrible idea and how it ruined her life. Everything about that dynamic felt gross. The fact that the adults are romance options AT ALL is a problem, but this one is especially jarring.

[@katiahrvth8483]

Yeah! What are the ethics of a teacher (or doctor, for that matter) that pursues a romantic relationship with their teen student?? It just baffles me

[@cosmiccat26]

Kawakami being a romance option pissed me off so much. This sexy maid thing was super inappropriate and only plays into this very dangerous opinion a lot of people have that young teenage boys cannot be assaulted by "hot" older women. I was actually very sure Salari was going to mention this. A little surprised he didn't.

[@cowamanga1557]

I really like kawakami's design and against my better judgement i pursued her link, and the whole time it was just gross and i regretted it immensely. The emphasis on everything that made the relationship taboo but making it "okay bc we're in love" just felt like the writers trying to convince themselves and us that it was somehow excusable bc she doesn't literally sleep with the protag. Me being an adult playing as a teen character having to decide to date either adults or teens feels like a lose-lose

[@katiahrvth8483]

@@cowamanga1557 i feel ya. from what i saw around, the dialogue was changed quite a bit in P5 Royal in the romantic scenes for all characters to be less implicant of sexual relations but it still feels weird as hell. i don't know if adults are in fact the target demographic of the game, so it may explain some writing choices (?)

[@Noonesawmehere]

Meanwhile we can't date the guys that are our age, as a bisexual guy I really wish I could've held hands with Ryuji

[@jaysutter9934]

Something I would like to point out is that almost all of the problems regarding the female characters’ portrayal is in the anime cutscenes. I speculate that this may have come from the anime studio not understanding the themes of the game. It seems there may have been some miscommunication between the writers and the anime studio that did the cutscenes. Also, even though I am not saying that this was the correct choice, Ann’s outfit is specifically meant to look like a dominatrix, symbolizing her taking her sexuality back under her own control. It still didn’t make sense that she herself didn’t like her costume, since it was supposed to be formed by her own cognition. I also noticed that Ryuji is also treated somewhat hypocritically. (Although not as badly as Ann) He is established to be a physical abuse victim so making him target of all the slapstick comedy was in poor taste if you ask me. Funny enough, they changed the box art of the Western version of Strikers so that Ryuji is no longer being punched in the face. That’s progress I guess.

[@carbine090909]

May I point out that these characters are written to be teenagers. Powerless and naive teenagers, by design. Which makes the crime of sexual assault and abuse on them worse, by design. But being sexually abused isn't a matter of having your sexuality 'taken away,' so that through kicking ass one can then symbolically show that it has been 'reclaimed' by wearing a bust-boosting skin-tight red leather zip-up cat suit in front of said adult male perpetrator. May I remind you: sixteen. Does that sound at all... wrong, to you? I mean, a sexual abuse victim doesn't lose their sexuality, they lose their trust, and that's not something that can be "reclaimed" by kicking ass, as if the abuser has it in his possession. A person with PTSD will always have the memory of the trauma, you don't "reclaim" your memory by piling new violent memories on top involving the abuser. Donning a bust-boosting skin-tight red leather zip up cat suit isn't a metaphor of empowerment, it's an indication she is behaving in a hyper-sexualized way, not only due to the trauma, but also from having even more adults telling her to 'look sexy' for the camera as a model. Maybe I'm being too literal. It's animation, after all. But all I see is more of the same here, and a real adult human male wrote it and mainly animated it. Mostly males consume it. And the message misses the point almost entirely, by circling around and saying, Hey! Now that you're empowered again and all, go put on that catsuit for me babe, chop chop! I want to see me some boobies!

[@jaysutter9934]

@@carbine090909 Japanese entertainment in general has a serious problem with sexualizing young people. Something I noticed in persona 5 that I thought was odd was that it kind of ignored the fact that Kamoshida was a pedo and just focused on the fact that he was a rapist. (Or an attempted one at least.) Japan as a society just doesn’t seem to see the problem with sexualizing teens. Personally, I have trouble seeing the characters (or most other anime characters) as real teenagers. Same with a lot of western shows like Riverdale, there just seems to be a disconnect in people’s minds that these characters are technically supposed to be kids. And I’m talking about character personalities, not just there visual design. And I agree with your point about Ann, it’s pretty messed up especially when you realize she’s 16-17. I was just pointing out that at least there was a reason behind her costume design at least and it was meant to be empowering, even if the reasoning behind it is misguided

[@carbine090909]

@@jaysutter9934thank you for your thoughtful response. Agreed, it's an explanation, but it isn't justification, just as "I was adjusting my microphone" is an explanation, but it is not a justification. I'm really curious about the male gaze - in Japan it does seem from an outsider's perspective that leering at school girls is an out of control trope. In the US we prefer the excuse 'she looked older!' So no matter what a girl wears, she's a temptress just for existing as a corporeal being with garments. How do men cut off that urge among their family? I mean, I can only assume sexual desire is under conscious control, so why do they claim "it's natural!" "I can't help it" etc etc.. My conclusion is, indoctrination and grooming.

[@WeirdTale]

@@jaysutter9934 It has to do with the fact that many Japanese adults only had the chance to have sex as teenagers and they spend too much time working to enjoy the activity anymore. They overromanticize teen romance because in many cases it was the last time they felt 'free'.

[@pandaexpress7673]

I think they could totally design Ann's costume better rather than having a flimsy excuse about taking her sexuality back under her control because come on she's really not in control, the dev and the audience are. When you look at her design, it screams fanservice towards targeted demographic. Not saying we must never show boobs and butts and not even ankles, it is a really great design but not for her imo. She is 16/17, a sexually abused victim and she was probably designed with said objectification in mind, and that sells.

[@ninja6974]

I hated the thing that I couldn't even say anything when they wanted Ann to pose nude after being sexualy harassed. I remember that I had to stop for a sec and just take a deep breath I was really pissed at that

[@jeschoofs]

You could say something about it You had the option to say “hahhaha go nude hahah wacky” and nothing else

[@MayHugger]

God I hated when I couldn't tell characters not to do something I disagreed with.

[@alexanderinoa7850]

If I remember correctly you could joke or say that it was the only way to get into the building. The joke is fucked up, but it is true that her tricking Yusuke would have been the only way to get in.

[@justsomeguyontheinternet7134]

@@MayHugger I mean yeah but realistically even if you could it wasn't gonna change anything as the cops would have been called otherwise its clear if joker did detest the cops would have been called and they would have failed I'm not trying to say its okay but it at least explains why plus Yusuke states many times he not interested in ann plus he doesn't know she was assulted as victims don't usually go around telling people that

[@Jdudec367]

@@jeschoofs you can't say that though.

[@siandream4495]

Duuude the guys in the rhythm game got a badass video of them robbing a bank or smth and the girls got whatever that was 🤮🤮 Thanks I hate it

[@nothen3681]

Robbing bank did fit well with them being "thieves" but what girls got seems to be how Atlus views their female characters, also isn't Futaba still a minor...?

[@Morurui]

@@nothen3681 Yup both Futaba and Ann are underage. It’s also gross that they sexualized Makoto and Haru who are 18 in the rhythm game which is barely reaching adulthood

[@kaisolomon5187]

@@Morurui but they arent minors. by the time scramble and the dancing game come, makoto and haru are 18 ongoing 19

[@Morurui]

@@kaisolomon5187 ahh I see thanks for the info!

[@ultraagilao4026]

That pissed me off so much... especially the fact that more people weren’t mad ab it...

[@PocketDeerBoy]

I don’t hate bikini armor, i think on its own it’s fine. But the volume of it, combined with the lack of more practical or just different styles of clothing makes it clear they’re not designed for anyone other than straight men. My biggest gripe however is that men don’t get the same skimpy outfits.

[@ladiorange]

But that is the question. Would women want to see that? We may be conditioned to expect women to appear hyper sexualized and therefore we become ok and accepting of that. But it's a bit rapy to represent people this way. Carry on having men be geeky or heroic or whatever. But let women also be something other than hyper sexualized in game play.

[@mikanchan322]

I agree, but I don't think "let's also sexualise men" is the answer. As mentioned by someone above, it might not attract women the same way skimpy clothed girls attract men. Also I'd just prefer if neither gender was consistently oversexualised for entertainment.

[@guacamojo]

@@wheretao6960 it's literally a part of this topic..

[@guacamojo]

agreed, there should be a balance of practical/skimpy, and a balance of sexualized men/women. although I'm DEFINITELY not saying league of legends is balanced regarding character design, they're a good example of representing sexualized men rather well compared to other western games I've seen/played

[@verybarebones]

@@ladiorange "would women want to see that" yes. On actually attractive male characters too, not geeky nerd male characters meant to be relatable.

[@fioledarsenic]

i would like to add that it is difficult for me as a queer woman to enjoy objectified and sexualized female characters because even if i am attracted to women, i cannot unsee my own objectification and just enjoy the ride. I cannot unsee that this is how they view women, as eye-candy that should look and behave a certain way. be sexy but dont be too confident about it. be a strong woman but not the main character, etc. And when i see media that tries to comment on that BY objectifying and sexualizing, it just feels hypocritical to me, like the cishet male creators want their woke points AND their sexy babes. It always feels like they start the creating process by the "sexy ladies" first and then craft the story around that to justify it. (im mostly talking about kill la kill rn ngl)

[@seraph3m]

This is a great articulation of how I feel! I’m so uncomfortable with shots where it seems like female characters aren’t aware they’re being sexualized because I know what it’s like for someone to peer at me without me knowing. Combined with the fact that the characters tend to be young girls, it’s a bit like rewatching the things that traumatized me but from the gaze of the person traumatizing me.

[@k0rny672]

As a fellow wlw, I relate a lot.

[@EeveeFlipnoteStudios]

Sappho here, I really relate to this. I used to sorta like fanserviced female characters, but as I got older and started thinking about media, I find myself repulsed by objectification and can't enjoy it. You really voiced part of why it bothers wlw, but I feel another thing is that what is viewed as "sexy" is simply a product of culture/social ideas. There are cultures that don't see breasts as sexual, for example. And what about blind people who don't experience the visual aspect of attraction? Instead of being bombarded with imagery telling me "look, this is attractive, isn't it??" I would like to appreciate what I find attractive on my own terms, through my own experiences.

[@reduxer8405]

kill la kill was eh

[@factspeaker8518]

I get it. You hate attractive characters. Go make your own game.

[@EternaMidnight]

I'm surprised you didn't talk about Yusuke wanting to paint Ann nude being a big plot point right after that whole Kamoshida arc...

[@rsarin18]

I don't think Yusuke wanting to paint her nude is the main issue. But how the characters react to it telling her "it's the only way." You could somewhat defend this saying Ann is taking control of her sexuality, but she really didn't have much of a choice in this situation. Thankfully though, nothing weird happened in the end.

[@EternaMidnight]

@@rsarin18 Is it really her taking control of her sensuality when she kept saying no repeatedly but got badgered into it, told it was the only way, and joked about and told it wasn't a big deal? 😅 Tbh that intro made it hard for me to like Yusuke for a long time after that, and I've had friends say they experienced the same thing.

[@goroakechi6128]

I don't really think Yusuke looked at Ann in a sexual way (at least then). He even said ''I'm not interested in you as a member of the opposite Sex', he just thinks she's beautiful in an Art Kinda way, but Yes I understand why it could make it hard to like Yusuke.

[@factspeaker8518]

@@EternaMidnight But if you played the game,she never went nude. It was just buildup to her wearing a fat suit to troll the player. Left can't pay attention 👀

[@raidoukuzonoha883]

Man... there teens of course there gonna be like that.... kamoshida was a grown ass man.. shut up and get off your white horses

[@dasia7920]

I had a bf who loved this game. He was a generally respectful person and we had a very good r/s together. However, after separating from him - I realise his flaws. One is that he had objectified me very often. One example is he described the personal private photos/videos of me as 'artefacts' for him. It was incredibly difficult to get him to rid of those footages of me from his possession - and he's not a child, actually close to his 30s. I was disgusted of him tbvh. It was painful to realise another side to someone I loved so deeply. But an eye-opening experience nonetheless. Another thing I remember is when we watch something, he'd ALWAYS comment on the woman's figure. For example when we watched a Japanese reality series; he'd complain about how skinny/flat chested/pancake ass the women were. YES. COMPLAIN. I'm quite curvy/chubby myself and I have this conflict in me where I WANT this objectification of me to stop. That a healthy debate/discussion/conversation about life is so highly valued for me in a man. VS the me who loves being playful, sexy and teasing of a man I want to explore something with. I recognise that, these are two sides of me. I'm open to hear criticism of I seem to have double standards or something as I'm forever growing and developing as a person. I also think.. society and media and as you mentioned the 'male gaze' had conditioned that man I was once with, to somehow think this way? Perhaps I'm wrong. But he had this really high and mighty perception of what kind of woman should be with a man of his (apparently important) stature. Anyways, I'm happy to not be with him anymore. I will be honest that, it might be a difficult road ahead for me to find love in someone genuine. Be open and comfortable sexually but also be seen as more than my body or reproductive ability.

[@Salari]

For sure it's had a role in conditioning him, it has everyone. Of course, many men in general have perpetuated the notion that women exist to please them, and the kind of comments I've heard about women while in the company of other men is just disgusting, probably far more worse than what they'd say to a woman since they think they're with people who agree with them. In a male dominated society I imagine it can be extremely difficult for a woman for a woman to feel like they have ownership of their appearance without being subject to the criticism of men, and that's why we need more media that portrays women who look the way they choose for themselves, and not for other people on the screen with them, or the audience.

[@dasia7920]

@@Salari wow thank you for your reply 💟 I just want to add another thank you for creating incredible content and wishing you all the strength for the challenges ahead!

[@WeirdTale]

The answer is that you were dealing with a decent actor. Someone that could lie through their teeth. He never really loved you, he was after just your body, or simply did not understand the difference between love and lust. You do not condition someone. He already thought this way at one point. I am a person that generally expects the worst in people, but I would never keep my ex's sexy photos after breaking up. Mainly because it is a reminder of a personal failure. The fact that he wanted to keep them means that he never saw beyond just your body and feels entitled to it.

[@dasia7920]

@@WeirdTale thank you for your perspective! this is such a valuable read for me 🙌

[@Userdoesnotexit]

dude thats like any normal male ........ you make it seem like he is crazy ... i bet you got flows but not relaizing it as well ... STFU

[@casir.7407]

the thing i have, especially what made me just tune out of anime completely, was partly how prevalent female sexualization was even in shows aimed at girls; but mostly, more importantly, is how age and aesthetics apply to it. a lot of time, female characters in anime are high school aged (hell, sometimes as low as elementary school aged too). and when anime as a whole has tropes like panty shots, like beach episodes, like stock pervert characters... it feels less uncomfortable because a woman is being objectified, and more unsettling because its a minor being sexualized. i feel the same when western movies and tv shows have twentysomethings portraying sixteen or seventeen year olds who have sex with older people, or even long sex scenes which are meant clearly to be titillating to the audience. even if the actors are older, the context is one of underage people; and, in a graphic medium as anime, youth has been codified so much -with absolutely smooth skin, big eyes, small noses, high voices... i just feel bad. and while watching this i thought, well, its not so bad honestly, i mean. kill la kill is quite more ridiculously egregious with its fanservice -then the 25:50 mark came and... i just cant believe this is from a videogame that condemns sexual objectification. why are these made up teenagers dancing in cages?

[@vivvy_0]

i'd wish for an artistic manga/anime series where young characters want to reclaim their youth from those kind of adults that display them in an unrealistic, unhealthy way - that would be so amazing..

[@Eeveeening]

Tbh, fanservice is so weird now like I can't even watch an anime without a girl being sexualized every 5 minutes, it's pretty fucked up that they also do it to minors like ??? And they also have loli's which they justify by saying "they're 209 yrsold!!!!11!".

[@austinwalker240]

Just to preface what I’m about to say, it’s not meant to argue, but the reason they were dancing in cages was because it was the dancing game and not the regular game. It’s still super weird even in the context of that game though.

[@shawklan27]

@@Eeveeening word its hard to get into new anime because of this

[@Eeveeening]

@@shawklan27 Fr, I avoid the isekai genre all together for now tbh since it's the popular genre rn, sad that the actual good stuff gets ignored while animes w the same plot but different hot girls get anime adaptations, not saying they didn't work hard but it just shows that the world rn is so horny, the fact that being horny is cool now worsens it by a l o t

[@andimason3370]

I absolutely adore anime, but if there is one constant problem that I have with it it's the objectification of women. In recent years it has got better, far more anime are coming out now that avoid sexualisation entirely and are far better for it. However I still wouldn't quite call it the norm; indeed objectification is still common enough that I will still notice it when shows deliberately avoids it. A good example recently is Keep Your Hands of Eizouken (amazing show by the way go watch it) where a character kicks open a door. Many anime would use it as an excuse for a quick provocative shot, but in this one the camera is deliberately panned up for a few seconds to avoid any sexual imagery. The problem is that I noticed it, I was expecting to have to deal with pointless sexualisation for a few seconds and was pleasantly surprised when I didn't. Unfortunately I'd say even now only about a quarter of anime avoids any objectification, and although many shows have good enough writing and characters that I can ignore it it remains something that I will begrudgingly put up with and roll my eyes at so I can get past it back to the character developement, story and other aspects I actually like.

[@thesanesociety5948]

I was recently playing P5 and while loving the Game as a "Game" i was also shocked about the garbled way it poises between sexual objectification and "empowerment". I was debating if i should make a Video about it and then stumbled upon yours, no need for that anymore, Great Video...

[@GreenWolf2k]

Nah man this video is a terrible take on media in general and especially on Ann/P5R as a whole.

[@DarkChiiTheme]

It's really sad n tone-deaf to give the "good guys" free pass to more or less "disrespect" their female counterparts, just because they don't act on it, n/or aren't "as bad" as the real "bad guys". It's confuses me that they couldnt put two n two together. But it's basically how it is irl.. I've had so many guy friends that would be furious and angry when I tell them that I've been sexually assaulted in the past, just to then do the same thing to me.. n yet not get that they too did that same thing as those they claim to hate. Thank you for shining a light on issues like these. Love you contents!

[@rootsky7745]

Ann was one problem that honestly made the game feel hypocritical (like you said: the message of the first palace vs the game’s treatment of Ann later on), but I gotta say, the sexualization of Futaba made me so much more uncomfortable considering how young she is. It didn’t happen as often as it did with Ann, but still fairly gross.

[@MarteaniArt]

The entire bikini segment made me significantly uncomfortable for Futaba. She's so uncomfortable throughout the entire ordeal.

[@alexanderavila4662]

This is for the sake of story telling. The main cast is almost all about the same age. The characters are explored through things like these.

[@rootsky7745]

@@alexanderavila4662 nevertheless, exploring a 15 year old’s character through sexualizing her is a story-telling method that makes me deeply uncomfortable and I wish they’d chosen like ANY other way to do it.

[@alexanderavila4662]

@@rootsky7745 well the character's life has to do with those concepts. She deals with things like that. It's part of the story to go in deep to who she is. Age is not the point here. What matters is to show her as a character and her life. You know teenagers do a ton of things like these and that's real life. This is in the game to explain a specific plot. To explain how one character feels.

[@yoshikagekira4098]

I don't consider Futaba being sexualized in the bikini part. It was more like a representation of how she grew up self-confidence and trust on her group of friends, and how she managed to adapt to society after overcoming all her traumas and mental problems. I mean, a woman or 15-year-old girl wearing a bikini isn't considered sexualization irl, why should it be in a videogame?

[@somasora7]

While it’s a little unfortunate you needed to spend so long at the beginning and end on disclaimers, I agree with pretty much all your points. I do think there’s some other notable moments that merit discussion though, like Ann’s treatment during the Madarame arc (specifically having to pose nude) and being able to date your teacher (of all things after the Kamoshida arc). You honestly could be a lot harsher on the game for this kinda thing. Even though it’s probably my favourite game of all time and I love the cast, Persona 5 trips over its feet character and story-wise in some pretty big ways

[@landis9767]

had this video been made by a woman, the like-dislike ratio would be very different...

[@ShardServal]

Sadly, yeah. Because then she would've been "just whining over a video game instead of doing something about the REAL sexism in REAL LIFE", yadda yadda yadda. Because apparently sexism/objectification is the one thing you can't bring into discussion about entertainment without making it "too political". ESPECIALLY if you're a woman yourself. But then EVERYTHING else, including countless OTHER political topics, is completely alright to talk about and criticise. And then of course, there's the classic, utterly pointless rebuttal "Well, why are you playing it if you don't like it?", regardless of how much they'd mention to enjoy the game overall. Or how rationally they'd explain that the game contradicts itself with its own messages.

[@landis9767]

@@ShardServal yeah. or not even that, people would just dismiss her as a "crazy sjw"

[@klaussone]

@@ShardServal Or maybe because "objectification" is one of those terms that assumes a lots of things but has never been even proven to even exist or being a detrimental effect. Is mostly speculative and not very useful as Its mostly observed in total isolation without any regard for context or other similar but adverse effects. Even IF true. It has never been addressed as a one of many ways in which we develop relationships, probably not long term and rapidly substituted by different interpretations of a person after certain requirements had been fulfilled. In another words.. Its a useless term used mostly by people who lack the required knowledge to make proper assumptions of the actual ramifications of such affects and how it relates to the way humans relate to one another.

[@landis9767]

@@klaussone that was a lot a seemingly fancy words to say pretty much nothing. are you implying objectification is NOT something that happens? and that if it does it's not harmful in any way, it's in no way related to heavily ingrained social ideas and mechanisms, and it should just be ignored and not talked about? how about no? you want an easy peasy example of what the objectification of the female body, and by extension women causes? tons of men feeling entitled to "possess" a woman to satisfy their needs, an object to be used and to be disposed of when it rebels. ...are you saying violence against women isn't a big systemic problem? if so i'm not even gonna take you seriously. edit: of course one game with sexualized anime girls isn't gonna make anyone kill a woman. it just ever so slightly contributes to reinforcing an already huge, complex, systemic issue. come on now. the up close chest and butt shots of an abused 16 year old character was really not necessary. but stuff like that is extremely common in media, especially japanese. that's why they feel confortable putting it in there

[@klaussone]

@@landis9767 all those answers were within my original post, if you a can't make them out yourself. You are not worthy of my time.

[@Blarg8293]

It's so sad that you feel like you have to spend as much time excusing yourself as talking about the issue you were trying to address. I understand where it comes from and how easily the words can get taken out of context without those disclaimers, but I think in this particular case they were holding you back and as a result you touched on the subject only briefly, saying that there is a problem, without analysing it throughly. The narrative of Ann is an important issue in gaming to me, as I've been a victim of sexual assaults as well and persona is my favourite franchise, so it made me really happy to see this video. I appreciate your attempt of speaking up, and as a summary of the problems, the video was really good and concise, however the cases of objectification and overall horrible and sexist behaviour (like pressuring Ann into posing nude for a stranger, who was initially shown as predatory) are more frequent and severe than what you make it seem, and the points you've shown to defend the game don't balance them in the slightest - heroes, people that the narrative makes as admirable as possible, setting up a role model, harassing their friend, a victim of assault will never balance as a message of "some people in power do bad things". I would even argue, that the seemingly considerate tone of the game reassures the audience, that the predatory behaviour of heroes is justifiable and by condemning only a handful of individuals (the villains) it further alienates the fact that harassment can be done by anyone and leaves the audience even more sexist than before, not challenging their views in any way and giving the reassurance, that the casual sexism is just fine, since the "good guys" are doing it. It's basically a way of saying "at least we're not as bad as them".

[@cahiersdeliane]

If you are ever interested in making a video about this, I would totally watch it! (and I bet many others would)

[@Blarg8293]

@@cahiersdeliane Thank you so much for suggesting it! While thinking about the comment I noticed how much I have to say about the issue and the thought of making a video myself has crossed my mind, but I wasn't sure about it. If I manage to find enough time between my studies I'll do my best to make it!

[@shawklan27]

Well fucking said brother

[@RengokuGS]

Yea I felt the same way. This could have been over an hour when you consider other things like the maid social link. Cvit did a long video on it and pointed out some of the inconsistencies.

[@frogglen6350]

How is it sad that he says that he likes a video game?

[@senpainoticedyou6182]

Yes, YES! I love the Persona series with all my heart, But the Sexualization of female characters(Also depicting gay, trans characters as predators"cough" Persona 3 "cough") I get "Fan service" but it's so creepy, and fan service can go both ways, but they always cater for the " straight male gaze" also GOD! Ann gained her Persona, from the Palace of the person who was Assaulted her best friend, and her costume, is a sexy latex suit?

[@MxPokirby]

I think it's implied during Ann's social link that she was inspired by Cat Woman growing up, and their Phantom Thief costumes are supposed to be "their envisionment of a rebellious icon", or something like that. Not trying to justify it, simply explain it.

[@HelloOnepiece]

I would like to add the not so straight female gaze, and the fashion designer gaze

[@senpainoticedyou6182]

@Mr Mistah Yea, cause talking about social issues, and misogyny, is leftist agenda? F*ck off, and go to your waifu made my middle aged men to fulfill their unrealistic expectation of women, since most women can see through their misogynist behavior : )

[@senpainoticedyou6182]

@@HelloOnepiece That's just a bonus, I'm sure that those companies with mostly straight male employees didn't add this for also the sake of the Non binary, and women who are attracted to women. fashion designer gaze, they could've done much better, getting a cat suit that isn't sexualized. also because such a thing isn't that common and i personally think it would've looked badass (since the other characters costumes were badass)

[@senpainoticedyou6182]

@@MxPokirby That's a good point, however they could've made an unsexualized cat suit. The fact it was sexualized dilutes the impact of the palace as a whole.

[@Lollol-yq5zz]

A bit off topic but I highly recommend trying Persona 2 Innocent Sin on the psp. The problems you pointed out in this video are almost non-existent here. It has an amazing cast of characters and emotional storyline. It also includes what I think is the best female character in the entire persona series (Maya). Of course there are other problems such as dated gameplay which are slow and grindy. Still it's worth a play as to see how much has changed from P2 to P5. They only started including the social links aspect into Persona 3 onwards and that's where I think the flaws you show in this video start to appear. It's interesting to see how much the sexual aspects start appearing, which I think was one of the ways the developers were trying to bring in wider audiences because before persona 3, the Persona series was more niche than popular

[@agatazietek9098]

I like all Persona versions, but many of the Persona 3 and 4's female characters, especially the ones who are not party members, fell flat to me. In Persona 5 most (not all imo) seemed to have a bit more personality, but at the same time the fact that they acted like typical women from harem anime bothered me a lot

[@oOConfuseaCatOo]

Was gonna post this.

[@promisnwekenta9703]

And play Persona 1 as well. I liked it more than Persona 3.

[@BARALover96]

@@agatazietek9098 funny thing i think p5 are the flatest characters in the persona series since they are all archetypes in the persona series and dont do much to diverge from the ones weve seen already and met in the series with the same archetype.

[@agatazietek9098]

@@BARALover96 I mean I agree partially; IMO 3 had one of the best teams, and I think SEES characters are much better written than P5's thieves. But in P5 I liked most confidants, and in P3 for example I hated both Chihiro and the other girl and I found them infinitely boring. I liked some other confidants but even if I liked their characters, I felt like the writers never used the full potential. And I hated how you just needed to tell them what they'd want the hear, essentially. With P4, I don't remember it that well so it's hard to say exactly.

[@887frodo]

A queen once said that “It’s both possible (and even necessary) to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of it’s more problematic or pernicious aspects.”

[@neyo231]

she deserved so much better than what she got... she walked so breadtube could run

[@887frodo]

@@neyo231 damn if this ain’t true. Bless her heart.

[@fuckyoutubecomments7530]

Yeah she didn’t deserve the bs people gave her. Most of the videos criticising her were made up of out of context clips and men ignoring what she was actually saying.

[@gnorp-gnarp]

who said that?

[@neyo231]

@@gnorp-gnarp Anita

[@alexisthemarshmallow7041]

i think people who have played this game should have these conversations more often.

[@jemolk8945]

I haven't played Persona, because I don't own the consoles necessary, but this has given me a lot of thoughts about video games in general. There's so much to like, but it can also be so awkward. The character designs are beautiful, but the camera angles... ugh. Like, is it too much to ask that we don't have a bunch of gratuitous closeup shots of the boobs and butts of any and all female characters? The full body shots seem more beautiful (to me at least) and less dehumanizing, so why we gotta keep using the objectifying framing? It's also not like that happens to sexy male characters even when those exist. The double standard bugs the hell out of me and makes me super uncomfortable and self-conscious about my own look. Also, yes, is it too much to ask that this doesn't happen with literally _all_ the young-ish women? That's the other thing that makes it difficult to just appreciate the beautiful characters -- I get this creeping sensation that they were written as sex objects first, even if the characters end up being good, just because they can be anything else, but first and foremost must be sexy. It stops being something I can write off as an in-character choice pretty damn fast when that happens, because surprise surprise, not everyone would make that choice.

[@x54xHantamachine]

In case you weren't aware, Persona 4 Golden is on PC now. Would be a good place to start if you were interested. Definitely suffers similar problems discussed in this video, but less about female objectification and more focused on how gender presentation and sexuality are portrayed in media. Same as the topics discussed in this video, they address parts of those subjects well and other parts badly, but at the very least they are a good discussion piece. Acknowledging those portrayals is a hell of a lot better than most games are willing to do, even if they are flawed.

[@bluebird1914]

I agree. What bugged me about the beach scene in Persona 5 especially, was that if you've seen the full one, Futaba (the redhead girl) didn't actually want to go with them, because she would have to wearing a bikini. But then you see her at the beach in a bikini. Not only did that not make logical sense, seeing as you know, bikini's aren't the only form of female bathing suit, but it also just felt like they were purposely disrespecting Futaba for the sake of 'ooooh hot girl.'

[@unknownredacted3513]

@@bluebird1914 I...I honestly have no words for u... She didn't want to go not because she was in a binki. It is because it is a place with a lot of people. You would also know that Futaba isn't a people person as the first couple of days after the palace are spent trying to reintegrate Futaba into modern life after being stuck in her room for so long...

[@bluebird1914]

@@unknownredacted3513 Oh yeah, I forgot she's really shy. Still though, if you were in Futaba's place, would it not be more comfortable to go to a populated place somewhat covered up, as opposed to going to a populated place in underwear? I just can't see Futaba really liking showing a lot of skin.

[@unknownredacted3513]

@@bluebird1914 I mean to her most likely both is a death wish for her. Plus I don't know how she would react since we never see her reason to Binkis or such Closest we ever get is Shido's and even then it was more so uncomfortable because it was Ruygi's plan

[@DeadRebornKid]

Big ups on diversifying your content! Saw Persona references in your video about Japan, but nice to see a dedicated video on the series.

[@Salari]

Thanks Majima

[@authorbhattacharjee4957]

Kiryu-channnnnnn

[@cosmiccat26]

This was such a good watch! You put into words what annoyed me about Persona 5. I enjoyed the game, but I hated how male gazey some moments and characters were. As a bisexual woman I like female bodies, I like "hot" outfits, but not if its made from men for men... if that makes sense. Mostly why I simply cannot enjoy lots of Anime oder Games anymore. It just pisses me off seeing my gender being grossly misrepresented to please men. And knowing how many people consume media without questioning this stuff just makes me sad, honestly. This simply normalizes the objectification of women. Very gross! Anyways, great video. I love it when straight men are allys and speak up about this

[@Sinc3r3ly]

So basically , you can like it but men can’t ? Yikes

[@cosmiccat26]

@@Sinc3r3ly nah, it's a little more nuanced than that

[@turnipopolis]

100% agree. This represents my feelings pretty well, as well

[@thenotsoamazinggracetnsag3463]

@@user-gc1wj8tt2p I don’t think that female objectification was ever a part of culture

[@allyli1718]

Yeah, I feel like a lot of people just don't seem to see where the objectification is because they're so used to it, making the people who do see it seem delusional or oversensitive to them. I think Birds of Prey vs Suicide is a good example of showing how women can make themselves look sexy without it being male gazey vs sexualizing women for the male gaze.

[@DOCTOR.DEADHEAD]

To me, cases like Kill La Kill where there's a story related reason why women wear revealing clothing always seemed like a loophole for avoiding it being called objectification. Saying that her design isn't objectifying because the story calls for it is a fallacy, because the writers made it that way to begin with. Everything in a story is the way it is because the people behind it wished for it to be that way, so don't act like they couldn't change the circumstances as to not need to glorify a woman's body.

[@chrystallix]

Kill la Kill is a fascinating anime to me personally because you could argue that the revealing outfits actually fit the themes of the story. You don't have to make just a thermian argument. At the same time...it's undeniable that female characters are portrayed drastically differently from male counterparts, even when you hit the point of the show where basically everyone is naked all the time. Gamagoori is never framed in a sexual way, even when he's only wearing a tactical harness and nothing else, and that's where my issue with KLK comes from. There's a far more legit reason for the revealing outfits and near nudity but it's damaged by the lack of equality between how characters are treated and the fact that it's gorram high schoolers!

[@natevans8024]

yes! these arguments where people treat media as if it spontaneously poofed into being instead of being made by people drive me insane!

[@FranciT98]

It is objectification, and that's kind of the point. Kill la kill is meant to be over the top and part of that over the top nature is the absurdly skimpy outfits that are as flimsy as their in-universe justification. Everything, from the setting to the outfits to the fight scenes to the characters are designed to be absurd and larger than life, with the only real character that's somewhat grounded being the main character herself, and that's where I see the heart of the series. It's the juxtaposition of a crazy world that follows no rules except for the rule of badass and a character that's motivated by the very human desires of pain, grief and revenge that has to fight against and adapt to a crazy world and crazy situation in order to achieve her goals. Now I'm not gonna sit here and say that Kill la Kill is a flawless masterpiece, far from it. It's a very enjoyable show that does not and is not meant to be taken too seriously. I'm not gonna say that the show doesn't pander to the male gaze either, but I will say that it does so in a way that is meant to make it absolutely clear that it's doing so and that pokes fun at itself for.

[@thecamelchannel1467]

@@chrystallix Gamagoori has an attack which is just shooting out a massive pillar from his crotch, he whips himself to get stronger... He's really sexual? The nerdier member of the Elite Four would be a better example, because he actually isn't sexualised as far as I can tell.

[@FranciT98]

@philmastro The Thermian argument presumes that just because something is justified in-universe, then it is immune to criticism from the real world. It's essentially a misidentification of scope. The point I'm making isn't that the skimpy outfits serve an in-narrative purpose, but that they serve a meta-narrative purpose, which is a reasonable counterargument to a meta-narrative complaint. Yes, the sexualisation fits the themes of the story because the writers chose to write it that way and they could have chosen to go another way about it, but the fact of the matter is that they consiously chose to go that route and did it in such a way that it strengthened the intended message instead of undercutting it, unlike in the persona example from the video and a whole lot of other examples in various forms of media. I agree with you in that the "logic" of a narrative world is created to fit the biases of those who create and consume that narrative and that we should identify those biases. That's exactly the premise of Kill la Kill, though, instead of hiding those biases or pretending that they don't exist, the show brings them up to the surface by turning them up to 11. I'm not going to say that this is the only or even the most effective way of doing so, but it is one such way with its benefits and its advantages.

[@rioalif2358]

So long story short: Atlus did a great job initially setting up the representation of an idea or message, only to fail to keep it properly weaved through the rest of the storyline. In this case, it's Ann, but somehow I'm also reminded of how Atlus handled Kanji's arc in P4... #WhatTheHeckAtlus

[@crossdaboss8914]

How did Atlus mess up kanji arc?

[@rioalif2358]

@@crossdaboss8914 this is just an opinion of mine, but I feel like Atlus aren't sure how to approach Kanji's sexual and/or gender identity...

[@crossdaboss8914]

@@rioalif2358 it was never specified cause that's not really part of hos arc its more about so what if he is gay or not be is kanji and that's all that matters thats why I feel they never outright said anything

[@diarandomized]

love the tag about atlus im using that in the future. youre also very right

[@tlozmeowcatz7991]

@@rioalif2358 It's more the issue of how they just use his sexuality (whether confirmed or not) as the butt of the joke for the rest of the game. It feels counter intuitive to have his development be that he is completely fine with knitting, being perceived as bi, and other things that would be seen by others as not traditionally masculine when meeting and accepting his shadow self, to then have that aspect of him be made fun of by the other main characters and to have him be embarrassed about it. I hope for Persona 6 they try to be consistent in this regard, because it's one of my biggest annoyances with P4/P5 (albeit, I haven't finished P4, so this could change).

[@briannamcfarland5974]

I found it genuinely upsetting that they put Futaba, a former shut-in with severe social anxiety, in a bikini and paraded her around for fanservice points. She literally went from being afraid of all human contact to establishing a small circle of friends to being okay with a huge crowd of strangers (like seriously, that beach was packed) staring at her body in just a few weeks. They would never have done that with a male character.

[@davidmondragon6961]

She had a change of heart. Like literrally that's the premise of the game. You turn ways of thinking by stealing hearts.

[@briannamcfarland5974]

@@davidmondragon6961 A change of heart doesn't completely erase everything that's happened. When you first start her social links, it takes a lot of effort for her to go to Akihabara with Joker. It doesn't make sense that around the same time, she's also fine with wearing an outfit that draws attention to her among an even bigger crowd.

[@davidmondragon6961]

@@briannamcfarland5974 I think that a change of heart is like a super fast teraupetic treatment so the victim can confront their problems in a healthy way really fast. The victim can go from be a villian with a corrupt heart who doesn't care about the evil they do to being a compasive and empatethic human. Of course that doesn't change what they have done in the past, hence the repentance they go through after. What I saying is that If characters like Kamoshida or Kaneshiro can change from 0 to 100 so fast, why Futaba won't? Especially when she didn't do anything wrong.

[@briannamcfarland5974]

@@davidmondragon6961 I think we have different interpretations of how the change of heart works, which is okay. I just think that if it was that simple for Futaba, she'd be reenrolling in school right away (y'know, transferring to Shujin mid-semester) and spending her free time out in public. She only hangs out in her house, Leblanc, or right outside Leblanc unless she's with Joker or the gang.

[@Jdudec367]

they may have actually...they had no other choice.

[@matteste]

And one thing I think deserves mention is that thanks to interviews we know that the director of the game actively sought to objectify the female characters, demanding that they'd be designed as cute even when the designer intended for a more "rough around the edges" design. Though, if you think Soejima is good, then you should check one of the series founding fathers, Kazuma Kaneko. His style is simply unique. Though seriously, it makes me sad that there wasn't even a mention of the pre-3 games.

[@christiananimepunk4793]

Probably hasn't played Revelations: Persona or the two Persona 2 games.

[@ItsArixy]

My biggest gripe in the game is that Ann’s character development at the beginning is that she didn’t want people to judge her from her body. So for the *rest of the game, she uses her body to further the plot.* _What?_

[@SleepyDonnnn]

No she doesnt want that to be the ONLY reason people like her otherwise continuing modeling will make no sense

[@vermilion6966]

@@SleepyDonnnn well it makes no sense. But modeling also means mannney so in money sense it makes sense anyway

[@Jdudec367]

Well yeah not only judge her for her body and appearance. Well yeah she cleverly uses it for her advantage but with her own consent and with her agency so it's fine and she is still capable too.

[@Jdudec367]

@@vermilion6966 No it does make sense.

[@drkhan462]

You make really good convincing point. I never thought of it this way but it's true you can't try to lecture people about how distorted Kamoshidas desire for lust is while pushing lust through fan service at the same time. The Ann bikini close up was really weird and uncalled for.

[@deawinter]

Yessss, you won me over so fast. Normally it takes a while after playing a game I love to start noticing the flaws and contradictions, but Ann right off the bat struck me as odd. I mean, she’s the only one who isn’t instantly enamored with her cool, powerful persona - she’s a bit embarrassed, iirc. It really struck me immediately as fan service to the detriment of character development.

[@ThespartanGus]

It's so refreshing to see someone brave enough to talk about this kind of stuff in a community so toxic as the Persona fandom. Being in Facebook pages such as Persona Hell makes you see that some of this stuff really affects the way some of the players see women, and i think that doesn't deserve a pass; we can make things better, and be more socially aware of the damage we make and take from the media. Thanks for making a video about this

[@diamondminer5459]

It’s not toxic; you’re only seeing a vocal minority.

[@cyncynshop]

The thing about Ann's modeling aspect is that I think it's stupid she doesn't control her diet because that will make modeling too dark. It's clear that any fashionable aspects or her modeling it's just a quirk for the creators to create a model girlfriend for players. Instead of giving more insight into her character, even Ann in her social links see it as a quirk. She never develops original thought about society's pressure on her other than "I'll just try harder and nothing is wrong about what I'm saddled with." I think it's truly ridiculous that the game objectifies her and detracts from her character so much. I hate that the game always give us the impression that man has to be sexually aggressive because that is false. A similar game I love but hated the objectification of female characters is Xenoblade 2. And that game's very frustrating.

[@Peasham]

What do you mean? I thought the game reinforcing how society is bad and evil and its treatment of women is bad and evil all the while having Anne be a model solely because society wants her to be was AMAZING writing!

[@bluelan9393]

But, for her to take her modeling seriously, she needed to practice poses and, take diets, even if she didn’t need it, but the others models. So, yeah, food disorders can go in the weird mix of the character :/

[@iaxacs3801]

But the game does have her work against society's disgusting viewpoint. It's just not in her Social rank because that's usually seen as the MC being there is the main reason for their changes. They didn't do that there because instead they had Ann's true arc intertwined, unfortunately extremely subtly, in the main story, pay attention to how she slowly starts caring less that people are oogling her but rather calling people out for the harassment. All without the help, and honestly more the harm, of any men.

[@Peasham]

@@iaxacs3801 That's because there's less ogling in the latter part of the game, not because of super secret character development that isn't actually developed by any events and has no cause.

[@garenthal9638]

Then play Torna the golden country. Only Jin is objectified and it’s done only a few times. Xenoblade 2 didn’t bother me because while some of the characters models are literally hilarious in their bodies, their stories aren’t sexualized. They just have booba

[@elixns_]

I think a way of fixing the inconsistencies of Ann's whole character would be to, first of all, actually showing her embracing her own sexuality. for example, not getting embarrassed at seeing her PT outfit and her being the one deciding to seduce Yusuke (just like in Shido's Palace) punctually. then you could have it so the boys/the game itself _didn't_ perv on her, or if she gave a similar reaction as to when she laughs at Ryuji for looking at her boobs in the beach scene btw Ann is my favorite Persona 5 character.. and I kinda feel identified with her. though I gotta admit she has flaws

[@spAcegodzilla129]

Anna would never seduce yusuke that is the complete opposite of her character.

[@diarandomized]

this, so much THIS. makes me cry because i love the characters so much. I honestly feel like there were different people working on different parts of the story, its just so strange.. An example is ryuji just being so against kamoshidas actions and disgusting behaviour and then later... doing similar stuff to the girls, like staring at them in a way that makes them uncomfortable as fuck. doesnt feel in character, and its not ok "just because hes a teenage boy". I love Ann and i love the idea of her reclaiming her confidence in her own body but it's just...destroyed by the intrusive shit the guys do like looking at her cleavage even though she clearly DOESNT WANT IT. Just...WHY persona? Your story could be amazing if you didnt constantly contradict yourself. I love the concept the stories' messages so much, that's why its so upsetting that apparently, the team dont seem to understand the story themselves and that really destroys the (goal and impact of the) messages in part..

[@Justin-Thyme]

What really irks me about Ann in P5 is how easy it would have been to hint at her growth after the end of Kamoshida's arc. The next palace, for heaven's sake, has a chance to address the situation with the whole nude modeling stuff with Yusuke. Was it so hard to add a quick conversation in which Akira and Ryiuji ask her if she's okay? Instead, you can choose between three dialogue options that range from cool/edgy to sarcastic. It really pissed me off the first time I played through it, and I consume a lot of Japanese media, so I'm used to their tropes. ps: can we all take a moment and realise how absurd it should be that you need to make a 5 minute disclaimer to say that you're a fan of the game?

[@tlozmeowcatz7991]

There was a similar issue with this in Persona 4, where the main male characters put the main female characters in a really uncomfortable situation, and there's not a single dialogue option to even mildly go against what's going on. It's comes across as pretty clear what the writers want you to think with these moments.

[@Justin-Thyme]

@@tlozmeowcatz7991 Indeed. I would like to think that it was due to the time it came out :P4 came out in 2008, and at the time the industry was a lot more "male oriented" than it is now. But yeah, clearly not. Kinda absurd how Bayonetta came out only 1 year later, though.

[@Jdudec367]

@@tlozmeowcatz7991 That isn't a issue...Yosuke was just being a jerk...and possibly is closeted himself and is being homophobic to deflect that. I mean...they've already been consistent.

[@lookatthis7635]

Honestly I was so weirded out with Ann’s meteverse outfit I ended up using the smt 4 outfit because it was the least sexual one for her.

[@jeschoofs]

Yeah i just ended up using the gekkoukan or yasogami high outfits Also because i have an unhealty obssesion with mass destruction

[@NIHIL_EGO]

Isabeau best girl, we stan our Neutral Fujoshi 💅

[@marianhampe3169]

your videos are incredible! so glad you're getting the views to match all the effort. P5 was pretty hard to play as a woman who has witnessed friends experience the grotesque levels of harassment that the characters have, but I also don't think it's a bad start as far as divorcing the male gaze from media. The games are widely loved, and I feel like the choice to make these men people from all walks of life (like "handsome" athlete, older guy with too much money, and father with too much power) makes it more digestible to audiences that the mistreatment of women is a systemic issue rather than a character flaw of certain individuals. thanks for posting!

[@martianpudding9522]

I think it's very important to specify that it's not clothing choices and bodytypes in themselves that are objectifying, but rather the way that characters are treated in combination with those traits. If for example we say that a character wearing a bikini regardless of circumstance is objectifying, that has the unfortunate implication that wearing a bikini makes a woman less human/more of an object, which is obviously problematic as many real women choose to wear bikinis. It becomes even more questionable when it comes to bodytypes that real women have naturally. On top of that I think that by actively avoiding anything that could be considered "sexy", we'd still be catering to the male gaze but just in a different way. The assumption would still be to focus only on how men are viewing something. In other words women should be allowed to be "sexy" without being objectified.

[@joshs7160]

Objectification is really just a confusing term for stating that female sexuality is not respected, it is lorded over and used as a tool for men to enjoy, putting the sexes on unequal footings. There isn't a single thing wrong with the concept of female sexuality, whether it is men who desire it or women who wish to be desired for it, the problem is our completely skewed and sexist approach to sexuality, which has just become normalized as to what sexual expression is supposed to be like. In a truly equal society the scales would be more balanced, and the demand for women to be sexualized would lessen the more we come to see them as fellow human beings. This doesn't mean we wouldn't still embrace our sexuality in the appropriate contexts, we just wouldn't have a reason to do it all the time, and shove it into every movie, and make our forms of entertainment revolve around it. Personally, I have little reason to seek out portrayals of sexualized women unless it is for the purpose of sexual arousal, having it in a video game or a movie or on my phone is just unnecessary, and ultimately feels pointless. The majority of porn feels completely stupid and fake, I want to see two people who both enjoy sex, whatever that may be, seeing a woman act like a dumbed down sex object is utterly boring and makes "vanilla" sex into a fetish.

[@authorbhattacharjee4957]

Bikini is fine But jiggle jiggle physics And highly seductive poses Yeah that's definitely objectification

[@authorbhattacharjee4957]

@@joshs7160 I just wanna see two people who are in love with each other have sex That's everything I want to see

[@martianpudding9522]

@@authorbhattacharjee4957 I feel like jiggle physics are fine as long as they're somewhat realistic? And we don't get like close up shots of them... But I feel like completely solid boobs that aren't affected by gravity at all would also look weird.

[@joshs7160]

@@authorbhattacharjee4957 OK? You're in the minority, I'm afraid.

[@m.i.a.826]

"The power dynamic ultimately exists between the creator and their audience" this!! A character can be empowering themselves, while still pandering to a male gaze just because of how the creator frames them. Thank you!

[@louvi5893]

I've been saying this for so long, after having the somehow unpopular opinion in a common sense topic it's very refreshing to see my pov in a very neat and well edited video. Good shit.

[@spAcegodzilla129]

No this video is trash

[@louvi5893]

@@spAcegodzilla129 lol

[@samquik]

Totally agree. And I feel like Persona 4 does a similar thing with Kanji. His arc is about coming to terms with his own kind of masculinity, and the fact that liking things that aren't "manly" doesn't affect his sexuality or identity... But then it continues to make "Is Kanji gay? lol!" jokes for the rest of the game... sooo...

[@michaeladams5318]

What I find a little bit off-putting in Morgana. He is seen as having a crush in Ann. Every time Morgana mentions Ann, he calls her Lady Ann, which feels very fedora-y. He also developed this crush when gazing at the cognitive Ann in the castle. The game treats this as a joke but it still feels very weird.

[@Peasham]

He literally only has that character trait because Teddie had it and people liked Teddie, context be damned.

[@vi0let831]

@@Peasham Yeah, but Teddie was a simp for everyone lol. Morgana's just a simp for Ann and that's not as funny as Teddie simping over every one of the P4 cast (the guys included lmao, remember the love hotel scene?)

[@TechBlade9000]

@@vi0let831 Teddie could easily be spun into a more positive role and not the butt of jokes in that area Morganna is doomed in contrast

[@GudetamaSit]

@@Peasham I think the only reason I liked Teddie was that his annoying arse got dumped on Yosuke. Karmic justice.

[@frickinfrick8488]

This was an interesting watch, I think you had a pretty fair take on the subject. I feel like a lot of these issues wouldn’t be as big of a deal if the market wasn’t over saturated with the same issues. I don’t necessarily have an issue with sexualised characters, but there’s such a lack of anything else that it feels worse to me, as if this is the only way women are seen and portrayed. More diverse creators would help for sure.

[@takke9830]

The reason I love food wars is that it sexualizes men and women equally and it refuses to do so with children as far as I know. I applaud the anime for that.

[@aeYami]

I mean food wars definitely had a lot of scenes where the students were sexualized. Ikumi Mito the darker skinned girl was 15-16 in the show and if you google her you can definitely see the objectification. However, I will acknowledge that later in the show it was the adult judges a majority of the time.

[@mcchilde2903]

You know even though both are being sexualized, I can't help but notice that female bodies are always the weirdest, most unrealistic bodies I've seen, whereas male bodies look somewhat realistic, so I don't think this is a fair comparison.

[@pizzatime9261]

@@mcchilde2903 Do you mean in Food Wars or anime in general? Because if it's the latter, then I'd have to disagree since while there are lots of examples of unrealistic female bodies, there's also lots of examples of male characters having unrealistic bodies.

[@DanTE_1203]

@@mcchilde2903 yeah right. having a teenager with a bodybuilder's physique is realistic

[@herefortheshrimp1469]

The first time I had ever heard of P5R I was watching my boyfriend's roommate play it - it looked gorgeous and so fun but once I saw Ann's character design I honestly assumed the game would be filled to the brim with a lot of problematic stuff so I didn't play until this year - My God it's one of my favorite things in existence! (It's the only game I've ever played through twice) But there are DEFINITELY problems just like this. And I'm happy that you mentioned the excuse of "this is how the teenage boy character is seeing them" is pretty weak. Thank you for taking the time to make this and show how we're growing but...we can absolutely do better!

[@OutOfCharacters]

There's kind of a similar thing that happens in persona 4. Kanji, in his own arc, is encouraged to be himself; that he can still be both a man and be attracted to men, that his sexuality is valid and isn't something he should need to be embarrassed about. Unfortunately, after this admission is made, it gets thrown aside for the rest of game; I don't even know if it gets acknowledged, outside of being made made fun of by Yosuke. It felt very jarring to have the pro-LGBT message delivered in the plot, and then get walked back as the characters sexuality is reduced to little more than a joke when it was acknowledged at all.

[@davycroket100]

Lol kanji is definitely bisexual or even pan. Throughout the whole game he constantly has moments of sexual attraction towards the other main female cast. I won't denie he's the butt of one-off gay jokes but he isn't gay

[@OutOfCharacters]

@@davycroket100 yeah, you're right. I edited my comment.

[@davycroket100]

@Gustavo Tellez oh I known, people like to grasp at straws about characters sexuality to find some representation or relatability in their favorite characters.

[@x54xHantamachine]

@Gustavo Tellez i mean, I'd argue that his sexuality definitely played a role in it. Even if it isn't explicitly stated, he's heavily coded as not-straight (whether he's meant to be seen as gay, bi, pan, or anywhere in-between is subject of debate). His concern over the assumptions others make of him based on his hobbies is surely there, but i think him being comfortable with his sexuality, whatever that may be, is what the real takeaway is meant to be.

[@SenorGuina]

@@x54xHantamachine coded as not straight: feminine, wich is his character arc, people just really want him to be gay even though there's actually evidence to the opposite

[@marshagreen]

The editing of these videos is SUBLIME! So well done, even in relation to the ad breaks. Hats off.

[@AdNoctemMedia]

I thought Kamoshida's dungeon was pretty dark and heavy when I first played it (my first Persona game). I thought the costume change was a little weird, but her being a dominatrix and flipping around the objectification to become a source of power made sense to me. But I still always had this underlying sense of objectification throughout the game. It really makes me most uncomfortable with Futaba as she's way too young and also not quite emotionally competent. But also, there's the whole thing with dating several adults... No real consequences for fidelity or going the harem route... Everyone of your female confidants can be solved by romancing them and getting the woman... I mean, it kind of sets the tone that it's totally cool to set up the protagonist with his teacher or doctor or an adult journalist. But imagine if you could set up Haru or Makoto with Iwai or Sojiro or Mariko. Obviously that wouldn't be well received.

[@shisuiki]

Question: does anyone know the word for the camera shot where zoomed in, it pans from the bottom to the top of a body, exclusively done to conventionally attractive female characters. I've been noticing this especially in anime media, and it's really getting on my nerves.

[@Salari]

I don't believe there's a specific term for it in that respect, but that kind of shot is a vertical panning shot.

[@AndyLikesPie]

Technically it'd just be a panning from up to down shot, but given the context, you might be referring to an instance of the male gaze?

[@emmanouela1141]

you can call it a 'voyeuristic' shot!

[@shisuiki]

@@AndyLikesPie yep, it's without a doubt male gazey so to speak. There are several of them in this video alone

[@shisuiki]

@@emmanouela1141 i don't think it's my place to give it a name, especially since i'm not a feminist media critic

[@emileereinhold6872]

I was so happy to see this come up on my recommended page because I also had plenty of moments while playing that never sat right with me. I feel like the loudest fans often mock any sort of criticisms of the game coming from the perspective of women and/or other minority groups, so it’s so refreshing to hear a video voicing these concerns!! Great video, can’t wait to check out the rest of your channel!!

[@GuanYuber]

Great analysis! One of the things that's kind of insidious about Persona 5's characterization in particular is the idea that Ann and the other girls in the Phantom Thieves sort of laugh off the boys' objectification of them. On the one hand, you could chalk it up to teenage boys being young and stupid, but you could also attribute it to the toxic "boys will be boys" trope that lets boys get away with it without any further introspection.

[@leyacer]

Tbh, thank you for making this video. I’ve always felt uncomfortable with the way the female characters in P5, but particularly Ann, were treated, but despite being involved in the fandom to some extent for years, I’ve almost never seen someone talk about this aspect of the game. It made me feel like I was being overdramatic or something for being bothered by it, so it’s relieving to hear someone else seriously talk about it.

[@spAcegodzilla129]

You are. Your just boiling down the strong female characters in persona 5 to nothing but a sexual object. In fact mokoto is student body president, haru is a victim who saved herself by choosing to disobey her father and live for herself, kawakomi is a teacher,takemei is a doctor,, futaba is a genius, sea is a defense attorney, hifumi is a master of battle tactics,hifune is a fortune teller who later breaks from her life choice to be a better person, ohya a news reporter who goes through great leaks to prove her friends isn't guilty of murder,and sumire goes through a hole character arc in persona 5 royal.

[@Playerofakind]

You use tumblr you don't get to talk

[@sagethecommunist5275]

We love an objective king

[@Jdudec367]

this isn't objective at all.

[@insomniaaaaa4813]

This! I hate in video games when ALL the outfits for the female characters are so skimpy they might as well be underwear. Just give us different options. Edit: and this is coming from a bi woman

[@cocostash3212]

I mean there are alternate costumes in the game you can use that aren't skimpy.

[@alexanderavila4662]

Woah I think your talking about a completely different type of game. Also your gender plays little to no role here. It does not matter. Just be yourself but that does not change anything or support the argument. Anyways I'm watching dank memes

[@bonk1403]

@@alexanderavila4662 Gender matters here because she's offering a unique perspective - one of someone who is both the actor and the audience to the male gaze. Anyways, I might go watch some dank memes too.

[@alexanderavila4662]

@@bonk1403 Well gender not much but rather the concept of the character and their story. You could say a man or woman is treated wrongly by their gender but right after that gender is not much of a role but ones own actions mainly related to good and evil.

[@SaKura-il8op]

@@alexanderavila4662 It’s a comment about woman problems so of course it matters that she’s a woman

[@MrWhatcat]

hey, look, another excellent thoughtful take. you've actually convinced me to give Persona a try sometime, because I was initially turned off by a lot of this stuff. I think it was important to say that a thing can do some good things and some bad things, and we can understand and interrogate both

[@tristanneal9552]

"Take your time and hear me out, I might just steal your heart." Flawless execution dude, I really dig that bit of the script :D

[@krunkle5136]

It came off as arrogant, like he's confidant it will. Wasn't a bad video though. Like he said, it's important to be critical with things you like.

[@hamzah2556]

God, the production value of that intro

[@nunothedude]

Shut up Hamzah Mamoon

[@RoskGamer]

Yesterday I found your Japanese loneliness video and I'm really enjoying your channel... Keep up the great work :D

[@SussyBaka_irl]

I swear this video represents my exact thoughts on Ann's objectification & portrayol, after her arc concludes. Nice job.

[@FrogJuiceJustice]

Another thing is that needs the addressed is that Ann is an underaged character and because of that, it's kinda horrifying that she's played up as a fan service symbol in some scenes

[@controlroomguy]

Do better research

[@joshs7160]

If you can't handle (fictional) underage sexualization, then avoid anime more or less.

[@aagh8714]

@Orion Pax the age of consent isnt actually 13

[@aagh8714]

@Orion Pax nope, but only the NATIONAL age of consent is 13, the prefectures that make up japan have almost all raised it. its like if the federal government said the minimum age of consent is 13, but all the states raised it to 18... its basically 18

[@Kaithlyun]

I love Persona 5 and by my profile picture, you can tell Ann is my favorite character. Many people have thrown hate on the devs for putting Ann in that skin tight outfit when she is a sexual assault survivor. I see it as her taking power back, to use her own body for her own gain. It's her body, her choices. But, a very big one, just like you said, multiple scenes diminish that message. They continue to objectify her and without her clearly putting her foot down. Instead of fully standing behind the message they take a big step forward and slowly through the game, return to their original spot. I hope for Persona 6 they take in all criticism and make a Persona even better

[@Peasham]

I doubt it, most choices made in Persona 5 seem to be there solely because they were popular mechanics/inclusions in Persona 4, like how Morgana's literally just Teddie and how the party members get ultimate Personas trough links, so whatever's popular in P5 will be put into P6, most likely regardless of context. So if objectifying Anne was popular...

[@CassidyListon]

Thanks so much for making this video. I feel like a crazy person whenever I bring this up with other anime/persona fans.

[@ariaaster4122]

Your mistake is talking with persona 5 fans lol those people are just bad human beings

[@CassidyListon]

@@ariaaster4122 ... but I'm a Persona 5 fan. 😐

[@ariaaster4122]

@@CassidyListon yeah but you know what I mean when I say " persona 5 fan " weirdos who can't accept criticism and blindly praise the game and their just very weird and bad people lol

[@OwnyOne]

This is so good. It's sad to see many works of art, as I consider video games to be, lose value due to societies' flaws, flaws that sometimes can overshadow them. There are many examples of great series, films, video games and media in general that ultimately succumb to these flaws, portraying groups of people as something they are not just to please a certain percentage of the population, as you've already said. To find examples in which all of this doesn't happen is a gift, and most times they end up being rewarded for doing it right. The root of the problem is a very deep one, and I'm very glad to see someone address this kind of topic so masterfully, specially since it touches me so close, being a woman whose life orbits around a passion for true art and video games.

[@buttercupghost]

I haven’t finished this yet but oh my god I’m so glad people are talking about this, because this is a big thing that’s bugged me about p5 even though I adored it! Especially with Ann considering her trauma? It just felt kinda yucky.... which sucks because p5 is one of my favorite games and although I haven’t finished all of p5r I’m sure I’ll adore all of it also, so it’s kinda a bummer the objectification, and some of the other stuff in it (cough dating adult confidants cough). It’s not as bad as other games in regards to objectification, but that says more about the landscape it exists in versus it, itself.

[@raidoukuzonoha883]

It’s because it’s fucking stupid why people don’t mention it.... it’s honestly not that bad

[@jennywhat6108]

I wish there will be japanese game where I can play as non-sexualised female character. I swear a God it's getting very hard for me to play j-games after playing with good female representations in western ones.

[@jennywhat6108]

Megan Mocaby Recently I played “The plague:innocence”. Amicia was a great example of how woman should be written. She wasn’t even physically strong but she had skills, wit and courage so combat system was quite refreshing. Another examples I personally fond of are: Ellie from Tlou, Klara from Pathalogic, Aloy from Horizon, Clementine from TWD

[@PasCorrect]

@@jennywhat6108 I'd also nominate Chell from Portal/Portal 2. Just a competent, clever, determined action hero, wearing a practical outfit.

[@theultimateshipperf.l.1186]

Kassandra, assasin's creed odessey

[@RoanoraZoro123]

Just play Trails in the Sky

[@howiehiew]

Princess Peach In Mario Kart isn't too bad. Does that count?

[@you_just]

P5 paying lip service to the evils of objectification means nothing. Within the first five seconds of P5R’s opening, we get a prominent shot of Ann shaking her butt. But the shot is literally only her butt. I find it disappointing that the game says “teehee, Ann (a tenth grader, mind you) is a sexy cat,” turns around, says “Kamoshida should be punished by SexyCat- I mean, strong and empowered Panther for his evil and totally bad actions (Kamoshida’s bad, you guys),” and then has the nerve to spend their animation budget on scenes like the desert car ride, or Futaba’s (a ninth grader who is otherwise portrayed as a little sister character due to her apparent savant syndrome) beach scene, or the fireworks scene. It’s incredibly ironic to me that the artists designed costumes for the female party members (all of them thin women with perfect hourglass figures, by the way) almost (Haru’s costume isn’t designed this way, but she does have a suspicious boob window, right above her corset) exclusively based on form-fitting bodysuits that display their curves. And if that’s not enough for you, you can always switch them into their swimsuit costumes. That the game allows you to be running through Kamoshida’s Palace with Ann in a skimpy bikini while supposedly decrying Kamoshida’s female torso statues is insane to me. I could go on (about how the fandom is so eager to defend this sexualization, or how this is really based on a deeper problem with Japanese culture in general) but I don’t have time for that.

[@kevinmc3252]

Just discovered this channel and I'm marathoning your vids, well done. I wish you continued success. The Japanese loneliness one is top notch.

[@raitoyagami593]

I just finished watching Japan video, great content.

[@Sin606]

That's how I got here too

[@chiyowee2721]

Thank you so much for making a video on this topic! I have always thought this way about Persona games, and I'm glad people are talking about it instead of brushing it under the rug because of how good a game series it is like usual. All of your arguments and points were very well stated!

[@natevans8024]

5 minutes in the begining apologising for even discussing this issue AND THEN 5+ at the end reiterating that apology and reassuring babies that they have a right to enjoy skimpy designs. It's a sad state of afairs for feminism when such a simple, straightforward concept needs to be handled as delicately as something like genocide apologia or something, lest the masses will be outraged! (tbf genocide apologia is a lot more popular than feminism anyways but u get my point haha hah ha)

[@vivvy_0]

Yes it stinks most men act like babies around the perverted things they enjoy and can't take even a small slice of criticism

[@keshagriffin3375]

@Mr Mistah Yeah! they act like their always the center of attention.

[@natevans8024]

@Mr Mistah I did not say feminism is straightforward concept, I was obviously refering to the specific concept in question: objectification of female chars in media.

[@natevans8024]

@@keshagriffin3375 aw poor baby needs reading comprehension classes! 😞 what's straightforward is the concept of the objectification of female chars in media, not feminism.

[@funguslord8202]

Stop crying because men like looking at big tits. There’s nothing you can do to stop it, so stop seething. Trust me, you’ll be a lot happier not worrying about stuff like this. Just let people enjoy things and be happy. Make your own game if you don’t like it, don’t try to take away things we love :)

[@DarkshadowXD63]

19:11 I always love this scene only because of Yusuke stoic expression, its like he is staring at Makoto's back its hilarious 😂

[@danielbakergill]

-halfway through- ‘Oh, the P stands for Persona!’

[@superbfruitpigeon]

Ann is my favorite character in persona 5 so I really appreciate this video! I like to think of her outfit as reclaiming her sexuality and making it hers instead of men’s but I can’t deny that this is a franchise and part of the reason her outfit is like that is to make her more appealing to male audiences. A character dressing like this is different than a real person dressing like that. Ann really did deserve better.

[@Evan-nf8ep]

I really appreciate this video. I actually started playing Persona 5 a few weeks ago and have been bothered by this EXACT thing (as well as some other things you mentioned, like homophobia). So maybe KZbin algorithm is getting better lmao. I like everything you said, and I feel like a lot of it mirrored my own thoughts! I hadn’t thought before about the jump between Kamoshida’s story and the sexism in the rest of the game, but I absolutely felt it. The beginning of the game was AMAZING in terms of treating mostly everyone well and it really disappointed me how obsessed it became with women’s bodies later. I think another interesting aspect of all of this is that this overt sexualization of women often harms the characterization of male characters too, at least in my mind. Ryuji was my favorite character for the first few missions, but as the story progressed and ALL of his story became about objectifying women, I got so fed up with him that I would just skip his dialogue without bothering to read it. I guess you could argue that that’s just “who he is” but is that necessary to include? They even do it to Akira, too, which is like some of the only time they give him any personality at all, and it makes him seem like a douchebag. Not ONLY that, but they do it with characters that don’t even have personalities that fit with it, like Yusuke and Mishima. It really detracts from their characters hard, especially when the game gets *so fucking aggressive* about how much it wants to sexualize women. Granted, I don’t watch anime much so I’m not as exposed to the culture, but this all didn’t sit right with me in a lot of ways. It’s really nice to see people willing to criticize media for things like this-especially people (like straight men) who don’t, like, necessarily notice these things all the time and are relatively unaffected. It’s reassuring to hear I wasn’t the only one who was disappointed by these things in the game (which was, of course, brilliant overall).

[@ZuckerZebra]

The moment Ann discovered her persona and the outfit changed, I first had to think about that. I stopped playing for a moment, looking at the screen and asked myself: wait... wasn't the outfit to reflect how the charcter sees herself/himself? So Ann sees herself as an object or is it her emancipation that she sees herself in this way and thinks: I'm looking sexy, so what? I want to wear what I want. Yeah I also think its only to please straight men, but it left me confused as well. I'm a woman who likes Anns design, but you're right in saying some scenes, like in the mona car, are really needless.

[@davidmondragon6961]

In the confidant route of Ann she says that since childhood she admires a female villian character. That character is Fujiko Mine from Lupin series. She's a tieft femme Fatale who wears latex when on infiltrations. So that's the image Ann sees as a heroe. There is a recent series about fujiko mine directed and written by two females, also fujiko mine is clearly a feminist character,.

[@ZuckerZebra]

Ok that makes it all clear. Thanks

[@sooyoungfanclub]

I’ve never played p5 but I really enjoyed this video! I’m hoping you continue making videos about subjects you enjoy, I know I would watch anything posted on this channel because of the quality and research

[@booklover4078]

Spoiler alert for persona 3 fes and 4 golden I am an asexual man and I love persona games but I absolutely hate the the scenes that are meant as jokes by objectifing women like the hot spring scenes in 3 and 4 all I wanted to do the second I saw where it was going were to skip it or play something else

[@Rihcterwilker]

So, persona 5 does a critique at a thing, while procceeding to do that exact same thing. Just like that cuties movie.

[@TheAngelo443]

Dude, I want to thank you very much for uploading this video. It was so eye-revealing that you literally explained to me one of the aspects I didn't like about the game (I do like it, I just have like 70 hours in the original Persona 5 but I've enjoyed it so far), the fact that the game tells you "this person is bad and is awful" is contradictory when we see it with the characters. Especially, when you can date Kawakami or Takemi. The sexualisation of characters isn't necessary a bad thing, and can be applied to males and females, but rather the execution. And that's the main problem with Ann and I totally agree with what you said. I'll look the rest of your videos since they look like you put a lot of effort in them. Again, thank you very much!