Fencing gone wrong

[@loyalsausages]

"And not only, to me, do they look like complete dumbasses..." Matt Easton on Olympic fencers. GO MATT!

[@HipposHateWater]

Fencing became much duller once they removed the swinging chandeliers and lava pits from the pistes.

[@Jossandoval]

+HipposHateWater Nah, it became duller when they remove the edges.

[@TheThingInMySink]

+José Sandoval I suppose you think that was terribly clever

[@crazyscotsman9327]

Very sharp witted you.

[@garethbarry3825]

I think that insult cut too deep

[@HipposHateWater]

I don't regret taking a stab at it though.

[@buu678]

You know what modern fencing needs? a buckler. It would make matches more interesting to watch rather than just a two minute tag game.

[@korggan]

+buu678 10/10 would watch.

[@edwardhyde4861]

+buu678 when did you last fence epee? In which part of the Code Duello does it mention bucklers? So much ignorance on this thread

[@KageRyuu6]

+Edward Hyde Which "Code Duello" are you talking about? Because there are many across the centuries that dueling was legal.

[@buu678]

Edward Hyde I fenced last month but I just don't care. The game will look more entertaining if a buckler is added. At the end of the day we no longer fight with swords so fencing is strictly for entertainment. Its fun to fence but it is very boring to watch fencing.

[@Egilhelmson]

Legal, or do you mean common? Dueling was never legal in the USA (thus probably not in the colonial period, either), but in the period before the War of 1812 more naval officers died from duels than any other cause -- clearly someone didn't care about the "legality" of the matter.

[@Lunumbrus]

I didn't know people fenced with stiffened bullwhips. That's neat.

[@andretorres75]

+Lunumbrus antennas!

[@napornik]

That's sabre fencing? Looks like two kids playing with broken car antennas..

[@rasnac]

Ironically, lack or the "right of way" rule makes epee matches most "swordsmanship-like" thing in olympic sport fencing. Just watch the men's finals from the same olympics and compare it to the sabre finals mentioned above. They even actually parry in epee.

[@pradanap.m.3195]

+rasnac Which one was that? If it's Piasecki vs. Limardo-Gascon, then yes, that was one of the beautiful modern fencing bouts I've watched in a long time. I particularly liked the portion where Piasecki closed the points gap from 6-14 to 10-14.

[@rasnac]

Yes, that is exactly the match that I was talking about. It is far from real fencing yet much much better than that olympic "sabre" match.

[@micahpardee1467]

We are agreed. This isn't fencing at all they might as well call it foil tag.

[@flametitan100]

+Micah Pardee I prefer the term Foot Jousting, myself. At least that's what I see all too often in olympic fencing.

[@Robert399]

I wouldn't blame the fencers, this is the Olympics final, you're going to fence however is most likely to give you the win. It's like that because the time difference on what's a double is WAY too small (priority goes to the last person to parry or the person coming forwards, if both are coming forwards, no one has it) and secondly because the swords are so light and floppy.

[@alexandrosgrivas4406]

+Robert R you can actually wait for the other guy to just charge you xD and have all the time to aim your strike somewhere he isnt going to expect it

[@Robert399]

@@alexandrosgrivas4406 Wow, somehow I missed this for 3 years. Anyway, not quite. If you're standing still and your opponent's advancing on you, he has priority so he'd win the double. But if you're both advancing, no one has priority and that's where you see what you described all the time.

[@BrodatyOlo]

Matt and everyone else, before you start bashing sports fencing for whatever you don't like about it, take a honest look at what have become of HEMA competitive sabre in recent years. This might cause a shitstorm, but watching the sabre finals at last year's Swordfish, I got an impression that competitive sabre in HEMA has already became more detached from martial tradition than sport fencing. I analysed all finishing actions in both final fights and it turned out that out of 30 clashes, 23 (77%) ended in doubles and afterblows, while all of the 7 remaining, winning actions, were simple attacks without any opposing action from an opponent. At the same time I enjoyed watching the final fight of the sports sabre world cup tournament in Budapest (I'm one of the weird people out there who appreciate and enjoy both historical and sport fencing). Out of curiosity I made a similar analysis, applying HEMA-ish ruleset. Out of 37 finishing actions - 25 (67%) ended in doubles and afterblows (in this I also included actions with only one lamp, but with a "proper" afterblow). Out of 12 single sided touches, 7 were parry-riposte, and one a brilliant, complex action from the bind. Other competitions I've watched seem to show similar tendencies. Draw conclusions by yourself.

[@patrickstewart3446]

One way I'd fix sport fencing is to change the playing field - Put them in a larger, more open area rather than this linear, one-dimensional stuff. And give them something akin to a "location hit point system" (where hitting certain locations score you a different amount of points)rather than this "point per touch anywhere". And have it to where you have to score a certain number of points per set to win that exchange. Modern technology certainly allows for scoring by this method. I mean, can you imagine if boxing was handled like this? It'd be two guys running at each other trying to get the first jab - the other punches would just disappear because they score you no more points. Foot work would be limited to going forward and back and defence would practically disappear. I'm not fan of the way the Olympics scores boxing now (as it only seems to count punches to the face) but it is leagues better than that exposition.

[@Chrominance87]

Yep, you'd be surprised how many sport fencers actually believe that they are practicing a combat system and that they're swordsmen.

[@ravbright]

Check out Chanbara and you'll see a bunch of idiots who think what they are doing is real.

[@ruiningwang1644]

At this rate they should add rock-paper-scissors to the Olympics, it would still be more entertaining.

[@habojspade]

Much of the same could be said about counted blows tournaments in HEMA.

[@scholagladiatoria]

+habojspade Indeed. They are bullshit too.

[@zombieteenager007]

+habojspade Counted blows? I'm not familiar with such a thing; would you mind explaining?

[@enginnonidentifie]

More HEMA tournaments should punish it, though some do. That said, sabre seems to be the most egregious sportified fencing. Then again, I only really did epee. That said, they're athletic and some impressively so.

[@akatsukami9578]

+enginnonidentifie : IIRC, under Longpoint's rules, it's possible for _both_ parties to be judged losers if enough doubles happens.

[@scholagladiatoria]

+Akatsukami Formerly at FightCamp people scoring 3 doubles in one bout were disqualified from the competition. We have changed the rules now, but people scoring doubles get nothing and they only have 5 exchanges in each bout. So doubles generally result in people losing due to lack of points.

[@davidurquieta9838]

Something else i see in this kind of fencing is that their weapons flex way to much, so then, even when blocking, the other saber can flex over yours and touch your fencing mask...

[@Fidgottio]

If their blade can still hit you after you parry, you've parried wrong

[@davidurquieta9838]

that might be true... however, that only makes this weapons more uneffective as you are forced to do wider movements and block further away from your body in order to overcome the flexibility of the other sword... that is a waste of time and energy in my opinion...

[@Fidgottio]

+DAVID URQUIETA movements are very concise and there are very few wide movements

[@wingtsun1]

That was one of the best games of stick tag I have ever witnessed.

[@velcro8223]

The fist pump is psychological. It's to convince the ref that you are convinced that you had the right of way. Thus coloring his or her opinion.

[@0hn0haha]

+Rick Szalay But they do it so much!!! They should instantly take a lap of the stadium while pouring champagne all over your mouth, that'll convince the judges.

[@PsylomeAlpha]

I'd love to watch those matches after about twenty rounds.

[@PwnstarUK]

what suprised me the most is that that is called sabre fencing and not huge bendy spring fencing, i always imagine a sabre to be quite rigid, you couldnt hurt a fly with that thing.

[@Fidgottio]

Not true. Go away and get yourself hit with a sabre, then tell me you couldn't hurt a fly with it

[@Giskeoutdoors]

+Fidgottio he meant the ones used in sportfencing

[@gma5607]

The state of my left arm every Wednesday, begs to differ. Seriously Andrew, ow every time.

[@Fidgottio]

+Jon Åge Giske Andersen So did I. A lot of people here clearly don't know what they're talking about when it comes to fencing weapons

[@Fidgottio]

+Jon Åge Giske Andersen So did I. A lot of people here clearly don't know what they're talking about when it comes to fencing weapons

[@bluebytes2931]

Although i agree that modern fencing is not really representative of historical fencing, calling it "tag" is also wrong. Especially epee fencing. Since there is no right of way, no one actually wants to score a double (you don't get an advantage, since you both score) . So in a match you will see quite a lot of footwork trying to change the distance, feinting and provoking the opponent so that he makes a mistake and only you score, instead of trying to rush your opponent, hitting him as fast as you can and praying that you get the right of way (which is done in modern sabre fencing). And you got the 1/25 of the second rule wrong - if you score and then your opponent scores while 1/25 of a second has not yet passed it's a double. Yes, it could be longer, but it's still better than the wright of way rule. As for just needing to touch ("tag") your opponent with enough force in order to score, it has derived from the "first blood" duels, where you don't need to kill or gravely injure your opponent in order to win.

[@Gilmaris]

99,761 %, actually, judging by the current rating of this video (1 downvote out of 419 votes total).

[@Second247]

+Gilmaris 99,063% right now. So there's horde of roaring sport fencers around there quite clearly. We have about 6 hours between checks, so that's 0,116% increase in dislikes per hour. At this rate likes will be in minority in 17 days. Math is powerful tool. Beer anyone?

[@JonathanChappell]

Welp I went and watched that fencing vid...it was painful. The problem isn't that they have turned a martial art into a game, that's fine. The problem is that it's a really lame game with rules and equipment that lead to unclear, uninteresting and unsatisfying competition.

[@Sallet]

I just wish they would stop double celebrating on every hit. It's like when a weightlifter starts celebrating right before getting red lighted. It's just cringe inducing and embarrassing for everyone involved. But the weightlifter would at least learn from it and stop celebrating for the next attempts... fencers just keep fist bumping the air and claiming victory double after double after double.

[@Koolaidrulz21]

I actually hate right of way. I find people use it to overextend and be MORE aggressive by just attacking first, whereas in epee people are more cautious.

[@Riceball01]

+YRUThinkn I think that's why you have all of these doubles, sabre fencers are being taught to be aggressive, to try to get their attack out before their opponent so that leaves little to no time for parrying. So instead of being more cautious and calculating like an epee fencer they instead throw themselves at each other in a mad dash to get right of way. Saber fencing would definitely be more interesting if they used epee rules, or at least got rid of right of way, it certainly would make judging easier.

[@BaldPolishBiotechnol]

So epee is basically about double penetration?

[@edwardhyde4861]

+BaldPolishBiotechnol go on - post a video of how good you are at epee, I could do with a laugh

[@dragonwarrior75]

+Edward Hyde you seem aggitated for someone responding to a pun.

[@edwardhyde4861]

i think it was the idiot suggesting the use of sex toys earlier on a thread visible to any age that may have set me off. by the way I saw no pun just childish smutty iinuendo

[@troliol]

+Edward Hyde You're an idiot.

[@Its_Jonny_Boi]

I know this is an old video, but I feel the need to comment nonetheless. I do HEMA now, but I've also done sport fencing for 12 years. Frankly, I don't think you're giving us sport fencers a fair shake here. I can confirm that almost no one participating in epee or saber thinks of it as a martial art. It's very clearly a sport, with only a tangential relationship to anything martial. I can safely say that's a widely understood concept. So frankly, this comes across as a bit of a straw-man argument. Modern saber has picked up some new right of way rules that, as a foil/epeeist, I'm not qualified to explain. But there is a system to it, I assure you, and those athletes have fine-tuned their senses to notice those subtle shifts in right of way. I don't mean to sound rude, but just because you don't see those shifts doesn't mean they're not there. Longsword fencing looked like a mess of limbs and steel to me before I started reading the treatises, but I didn't assume the fencers were doing it wrong. Please, take a look at the comments--videos like this lead to people putting down modern sport fencing as "whippy antenna tag," and that isn't fair to anyone. It throws staggering levels of althetecism and training out the window, and it comes across as dismissive and disrespectful. I don't know if you plan to make any more videos like this in the future, but please consider these points if you do. I hate to see one community I love putting down another community I love. Thanks for your time.

[@Reziac]

I suggest electrifying the fencers' suits. A few good shocks would soon teach them to defend themselves rather than just stabbing each other.

[@Wessex90]

I like that idea. So if they got "tagged" it would actually hurt.

[@Berserk_Knight]

+Rez Zircon Good idea!

[@nathanbrown8680]

That's a really stupid way to fence. Not just because it's glorified tag, but because it's not photogenic. I'm not sure exactly what changes to the right of way and double hit rules are needed, but they at least need to use heavier and larger swords to slow things down and improve visibility. What they're doing is not fun to watch and a sport really needs to be fun to watch to make it as a sport.

[@ConnorJaneu]

+Nathan Brown No, it has to be fun to do. Which fencing is, even with its strange rules. Which should be changed, don't get me wrong, but it's still fun in its current form. I do prefer HEMA however.

[@rennaril]

+Nathan Brown It might not be fun to what to you but that doesn't mean that the people who practice it don't enjoy it. I personally think that once you get rules its fascinating to watch. :)

[@nathanbrown8680]

rennaril A sport only interesting to those who already participate is doomed. This is two people running at each other with spindly weapons most of the audience can hardly see. You need young people to think "I want to be like those guys" to perpetuate the sport. There needs to be enough money in the sport that people can participate professionally to call it successful. And not just a few that consistently place in tournaments. In basketball or soccer or gridiron or baseball there are professional leagues where even on a team that never wins the players get paid enough to continue playing. In automobile racing everyone makes enough from ad revenue and sponsors (which is another form of advertising) to continue racing even if they aren't placing.

[@Crowvus]

spot on

[@Ascaron1337]

The ONLY reason for those doubles is, that none of them uses a katana.

[@project86xero]

Because a sword style that emphasizes killing with the first blow never results in both opponents killing one another. Personally I think it has more to do with the rules than it does to do with the weapons themselves. If there was a rule stating that neither competitor gains a point when both of them have been struck this would not have happened. Under these rules they could have been using katanas or longswords, it makes no difference, there would have still been doubles. Now there probably would have been less because both opponents would not like the feeling of being struck. However, that would be the only real difference and I'm sure there would still be plenty of doubles. If they were dueling properly they would have been fighting differently depending on their weapons. If they were using katanas they probably would have been trying to dodge, slip, and outmaneuver their opponent in order to make a killing blow. If they were using longswords they would probably be binding and winding more. If they were using military sabers they would be parrying and reposting. Either way I feel the rules are far more to blame than the weapons themselves. Although calling those weapons is akin to calling a toothpick silverware.

[@EdsEnemy]

+James Whitworth baited hard lol

[@andy4an]

+James Whitworth *woosh*

[@Ascaron1337]

lol I trolled him so hard, he did even reply in 197862 lines! :) #katanafanboi

[@EdsEnemy]

Hinterfragen! GRORIOUS NIPPON STEERU FORDU OVE WAN SAUZANDU TAIMASU

[@rohgenextfan]

Except right of way is difficult to determine because fencers may attack at the same time right out of the gate. The point of claiming having hit one's opponent is to attempt to convince the judge. That may seem shady but there are sports where you are trying to convince a referee of something (baseball, basketball, football, hockey, etc.) A big part of succeeding in sport fencing is to understand how one's referee is calling a bout and to adjust one's tactics accordingly.

[@sleepykid156]

Maybe they should revise the rules to penalize or not count double hit? If not there should be a rule where it discourages double hits.

[@TheOhgodineedaname]

Should've posted this on april the first with a link to Rick Astley.

[@mountainwindcat]

I could not agree more! I used to compete in modern foil fencing and the joy of the sport was the complicated chess match of right-of-way. The way fencing looks now, it's just tag with metal sticks. It's so frustrating

[@notoriouswhitemoth]

...the whole point of intricate footwork, parries, all of that, is to avoid getting hit. They certainly look like they were having fun, but if this were a real fight with real weapons, they'd both be a bloody mess by the end of it.

[@Wooteq44]

Sport fencing is one of the least spectator friendly sports I've ever had the misfortune to observe.

[@ThePfcman]

"The way i play with swords is better than the way you play with swords" - Mat Easton

[@ArnandKularajah]

As a collegiate modern fencer, I have to say that I regret my time with Epee and saber - it gave me so many bad habits because all they emphasized is speed and aggression - especially in saber fencing where many saber fencers would rely upon the right of way to win matches and ignore their defense. I then had to unlearn all my bad habits and discovered that the skill, planning and careful execution of chess-like moves in HEMA was much more my speed and interest. Speed and agility will always play a roll, but fencing to avoid being killed is much more of a skill / chess-match than modern fencing's clumsy clashes. P.S. Really hate when olympic saber fencers hilt punch you knowing that it's legal as long as the blade contacts first and relying upon head trauma to their opponent to help them win. That's completely dishonorable in my book, but I've seen it so much in modern sport fencing tournaments, both from opponents and teammates - whom look at it as some ridiculous macho who can survive the most head blows.

[@TomekBlacksMyth]

1:36 turn on subtitles for the double double double part.

[@darkshardshoots]

I fence foil and Epee. I gotta agree, the doubles is a pain in the arse... however, part of the reason modern fencing sabre is as it is, is how god damn flicky that blade is. I mean it's kind of ridiculous. "Oh, I parr.... wait he hit me anyway..." is not an uncommon thing to occur, so you get a lot of this very aggressive doublingthing and it ends up being a game of who can move faster. it's so annoying.

[@andy4an]

this is the most intense I've ever seen you.

[@deceptivepanther]

They look like extras from Logan's Run in all the gear. :)

[@ArawnNox]

A little late to the topic as I'm sort of picking my way through and around your library, but anyway. What really bothers me isnt how the sport fencing is now handled, its the celebrating after a hit. Pumping your fist and all that seems REALLY disrespectful to your opponent to me. One of the things that was drilled into me when I started learning rapier fencing was to show proper respect to your opponent throughout the fight until -after- you finished the duel, then you could properly celebrate. These guys just seem like arrogant kids with that behavior.

[@GinsuBastard]

Here's an idea: A double is now a point deduction. Let's see them play tag after that rule change.

[@TheGreatOldOak]

+HappySlappy 10 points for hitting the other. 1 point for double kill.

[@Berserk_Knight]

+HappySlappy We may end up hearing "Current score is -23 : -26." if they keep at it despite that rule change.

[@GinsuBastard]

***** If scores go into the negative, competitors will be given dulled swords and must continue or forfeit.

[@MaxximumKB]

so, I'm a men's foil fencer. If any of you did not know, we have the same rules of sabre. All of us think that sabre fencing is stupid because the have no strategy. Its ridiculous. they just run at each other like you said. At least in Foil people use strategy. I may be biased, but I think foil is the most entertaining to watch. If you want to see what I am talking about then watch both foil, and sabre and see the difference.

[@ryanturner3176]

while I cannot say I am an expert on Epee fencing, but from my understanding, the historical significance of Epee fencing, is a duel format, which were often done to first blood, and not to the death, and in those sorts of duels if both parties wounded each other together then then duel was considered a draw, thus the timing being as forgiving as it is, though at higher levels when people get faster I agree the time is a tad too long, but decreasing the time would effect lower level tournaments dramatically. as we see with some of Hema's rules, compromises do have to be made at times. I fenced for about 10 years, focusing on Foil. From what I heard saber is widely considered to be the farthest gone from it's martial roots. There is no level of strength requirement needed to cause a valid hit, the blades are way too light for that type of sword (even more so than the other blades), and they are not allowed to cross their feet to prevent the doubles from going like we see in the video (fat lot of good that did). Olympic saberists have been described by other foilists and epeeists alike as "Fast, but stupid" to me on several occasions (I have met several perfectly nice saberists and do not mean to generalize too bad, but my club only had one saber coach, who was an ass hat, and his students were fast, but stupid, so it was hard to not believe what I was hearing from other places).

[@MisdirectedSasha]

When I did sport fencing, my coach referred to olympic sabre as the two-meter dash. Regarding the bravado, I would argue that that is for the judges' benefit. If you can make it look like you won, that might influence the judge into calling the hit in your favour. There actually is some historical basis for that behavior; I seem to recall a sword-and-buckler manual (Either Manciolino or Morozzo) that recommended doing an elaborate flourish and swashing your buckler a bunch of times before closing with your opponent. The reasoning was that even if you get your ass kicked, the judge might call in your favour for looking good.

[@JimCullen]

Personally I think at a high level, a *lot* of games/sports get less interesting that at lower levels. Soccer is an exceedingly dull sport IMO watching professionals, but I've always quite enjoyed watching highschool level games. Basketball is even worse, with professional games just being score at one end, score at the other, and repeat, but lower levels being quite interesting. Professional chess players memorise hundreds of positions, but amateurs try to work out on the fly what strategies are likely to be the best. I don't follow the sport, but I've heard that "college" level gridiron involves a lot more strategy and a lot more running with the ball than the NFL where a significant portion of the game is just hitting up against the opposing team. Obviously these are all vastly oversimplifying things, but that's a sort of general trend I see. When I studied sport fencing, my fellow students and I always observed far more traditional ways of fighting. We don't want to get hurt, after all! It probably helps that we were very insulated from any wider "sport fencing culture", since we never competed against anyone from outside our small group, it was easy to keep our own culture of trying to fence in a realistic manner. I don't know if my experience with sport fencing was similar to the normal one people have when first starting out or not, but if it is, then it would be another data point.

[@Arthi556]

The reason why olympic sabre fencers double hit so often is because the ruleset has become very strict right from the get go. By just starting off slightly faster you can score a hit, as you attacked "first". So they trey to be the faster sprinter out of the gate and achieve the "first" hit, the "first" attack, earning them the right of way. They don't necessarily want to double hit, but the right of way by starting first. Also, by keeping up the pace it also servers to wear out the opponents stamina, since you keep forcing him to attack simultaneous as you do - parrying such an attack is much harder and riskier than simply attacking yourself. Once the stamina has been worn out you usally start seeing the proper parry/ripostes, when the reaction times are shortened due to reduced stamina from all the sprinting. Basically attacking simultanous saves you the trouble of losing dumb points to your opponent, making risky moves when you haven't quite figured your opponents stamina out yet and after all, its the finals - you don't get to fence until you can somehow determine who is better - its who tags the quickest first ;) Hope this clears it a litttle for you, since I myself am an active sabre fencer currently. Cheers

[@Armorius2199]

The thing is that the swords, are way to light making any movements incredibly fast, almost impossible to dodge or block.

[@aatamisyren4747]

2:46 turn on captions

[@algallontheobserver3780]

+Aatami Syrén rofl!

[@joaoteixeira6523]

+Aatami Syrén AHAHAHAHAH

[@edwardhyde4861]

+Blah b you have an interst in those Blah - please keep your evidently curious social life to yourself, the people of mixed age reading this thread do not need to know what you get up to.

[@edwardhyde4861]

Why do you assume I am american, tha is vaguely insulting. All i was alluding to was your careless posting of your curious thoughts in a thread without age restriction. Clearly you are incapable of such open minded thought and only interested in your own peculiar fantasies. Try thinking before posting ANYTHING again as you so obviously lack any kind of lateral mental vision. Normal? I don;t think so - just self centred and thoughtless

[@aatamisyren4747]

+Edward Hyde i'm 12

[@dorsal-qb5fr]

Any sport will take away the fear of death which truly defines a real sword fight.

[@LorannaPyrel]

I remember, back when I took saber in college gym, our gym teacher giving us "The 30 Second Saber Lesson." It went something like this: "This is a block, this is a block, this is a block. Don't block; *attack*." I also remember being reprimanded for making "Cutty thrusts", because I would start an attack, see that my opponent had already launched into one, and move into a parry . . . and then continue my attack. This was all back in the mid 90s, though, and of course, that was just one college's fencing class; still, I always remembered saber as "Supposed" to have been very aggressive, very offense-focused, blink-and-you-missed-it, to hear my instructors talk. Loranna

[@Fidgottio]

Sounds like your coach didn't really know what they were talking about

[@garethbarry3825]

Scholagladiatoria, I do not fence but enjoy your vids from an historical perspective. I would like to ask you a question; i have watched a few HEMA fights, but I don't see any of the cool disarms that you read about in the treatises, I am guessing their is a technical reason for this? Thanks.

[@scholagladiatoria]

+Gareth Barry Disarms are hard to make work. However they do happen in sparring from time to time - in fact I did one last week. It's just that we don't film that much of our sparring. I'll try to make one happen on film :-)

[@garethbarry3825]

+scholagladiatoria cool!

[@hazzardalsohazzard2624]

+Gareth Barry I've had it with a basket-hilted broadsword (Claymore) when using black fencers or steel swords, because the progs/lugs on the basket get the fuller/blood groove stuck. It's quite irritating, because then we have to detach it and it interrupts the sparring or drilling.

[@garethbarry3825]

Malcolm Powless-Lynes forgive the really stupid question; but please explain how quillions help? I am guessing (from yours and Harry McCuster's reply) that basket hilted swords make it more difficult to perform? Is this another advantage/form of protection with a swept hilt? Again, please forgive the question if it is dumb.

[@hazzardalsohazzard2624]

If you want an example of the sword I'm talking about, just google "Basket Hilted Broadsword", plenty of pictures. If you get Highlanders then you have the right images. I don't think the baskets make it much easier, it's the fact that the baskets I use have gaps and prongs. I think the gaps are a structural weakness, since they make it easier for you to be disarmed, but the prongs give you a chance of sometimes disarming your opponent during recoveries. My disarms have happened completely by accident when recovering and accidentally catching my opponent's sword during a riposte. I don't use swept hilts, but I think they have the same weakness as a basket hilt with holes. I remember seeing film a long time ago where some sort of thin blade gets into another quillion and disarms the wielder in an impressive way, but I can't imagine it being something that happened often. Disarms would take a huge amount of effort and coordination that I don't think is worth the time it would take to learn. The basket hilt itself is extremely useful, because it completely cuts off attacks to the hand, with little in the way of drawbacks. And I don't have a problem with answering questions, it's good that you want to learn.

[@santiagocanova1878]

Hi Matt. It's the first time I write a comment but I've been watching your videos for a while here in Argentina. I'm a sport foilist and let me tell you I absolutely share your point. Since I'm quite an amateur yet I can still take the pleasure of following as much as I can the rules of classical fencing, trying to parry the hits just as much as hitting the other guys. I guess when I reach a more competitive level I will have to yield to the rather nonsensical ways of hitting frenetically, sadly. Cheers!

[@krotenschemel8558]

Matt, I don't know what you're taking about, I watched that video a bit, and the rules are quite clear to me. Hit the other guy and then flex and you score a point. The italian guy doesn't seem to get this, as he's only hitting, but forgets the flexing.

[@PsylomeAlpha]

The Italian guy clearly fences with less flexible foils, or even actually uses a sword.

[@guilemaigre14]

I understand you practice saber, i felt a bit insulted as a epee fencer :p, and no we don't always do double, at least clearly not as much as saber does, in my opinion . :)

[@lukutiss1324]

I've gone and watched the video...why are their sabres waving about like pool noodles? Real sabres don't do that as far as I know.

[@Robert399]

+lukutiss1324 Olympic fencing swords aren't swords at all. Épées are vaguely like smallswords, foils are nothing and sabres are unbelievably light.

[@CarnalKid]

+lukutiss1324 Because you can't play touchbutt with a real sword.

[@myowndata]

touchbutt made me laugh :D It s the right name for this "competition"

[@SwordTune]

It's because over time the weapons have been made "springier" for safety. The protection is really light, so people didn't want to get bruises everywhere. But don't be mistaken: light weapons doesn't mean fencer cannot use realistic ones. A lot of competitive fencers spend hours every day conditioning themselves. They have the muscle and endurance to use real swords.

[@SwordTune]

+daten Schutz I'm not saying the competitions are any more fun because of it. Even among fencers, albeit very few I think, competitions look funny and a bit ridiculous. Especially my club, we like to poke fun at it sometimes. But the fact remains that it can still teach proper swordsmanship as long as you have the right mindset.

[@jeremygiles7617]

If both lights are flashing, you're doing it wrong.

[@PXCharon]

It was once explained to me that they're trained to cheer even for an obvious double or a questionable touch, to influence the referee. "Oh, he's clearly happy about that, maybe the electronic thing is off, we should review and perhaps owe him a point." How that makes it any better, I don't know...

[@justg6871]

When you just can't hold back anymore..... And when you're right, you're right. ..

[@0hn0haha]

Watched many our fearless leader's videos, especially replays. Fought friend with sticks we found in forest on hike today. I haven't even done actual HEMA yet. Still only got one hit on me thanks to just great common sense advice from Mr. Easton, advice than can be carried to all fighting in many cases. My friend, meanwhile... cut to ribbons. Not literally, of course. So yeah: AWESOME VIDEOS, super helpful, *aaaaand* we had no doubles.

[@filou89]

How do you think those guys would compare to historical fencing masters in terms of skill, and experience in an actual fight ? I know those questions can be pointless but in this case I really don't know,.... it's not actual fighting in terms of evading the opponents blade or retrieving theirs and going back to guard after a hit isn'it ? They should be more athletic but can they really fight/fence ?

[@brized]

+Philipp Schneider If they learned to really fight I'm sure they'd do well. If they applied what they know now to a historical fencing master they would die in the overwhelming majority of fights. For one, a real saber handles totally differently from an Olympic fencing saber. Otherwise, you can see from the match footage that they may wound or kill their opponent, but they too would be wounded or killed in turn over 9 out of 10 times. If you get into a fight and die, what's the point?

[@joedirt861]

Yep, I agree. There aren't any Military Saber groups around me so I considered doing some sport Saber to get a foundation. I chose not to after a few conversations with the fencers/coaches that basically said: Parries aren't really important, everything happens too fast you can't parry, just make sure you have right of way and if you don't run away or wave your sword around. Thank you, no.

[@Fidgottio]

If they're saying that it's too fast to parry then they're not very good

[@joedirt861]

+Fidgottio I can't really speak with much authority on sport fencing, but thats what I was told by the coaches there, one of which was supposedly an olympian. I thought it was a little silly because it seemed a. to be way slanted to the athleticism aspect and b. that kind of flies in the face of a few hundred years of rules and traditions of sword fighting. Silver's time of the hand, body, and foot comes to mind. I don't see that being wrong today as opposed to earlier times. Humans have not changed that much...

[@Fidgottio]

As someone who has been fencing since the age of 8, I honestly don't know how that coach got to olympic level without parrying... That's completely absurd! Parrying is still very important in modern sabre fencing as it allows for right of way to be gained in the event of your opponent beginning their attack first. I relied on parry-rispostes for years due to my footwork always being slower than my opponents

[@Fidgottio]

Joe Dirt Also, would you mind me asking the name of the supposed olympian?

[@joedirt861]

I will have to look it up, its been a few years and I only took 2 classes before I figured I wasn't going to enjoy it.

[@adamjohn12]

"tag"! lol! I wish I could favorite this video twice!

[@DarkDeputy]

I am going to argue that double touch in epee actually has a valuable purpose. It doesnt matter what timeframe is considered a double touch. In college I chose epee as my main weapon because of its rules. If you are good, you will have at least one more touch than your opponent. At that point if they try for doubles on you they will lose as they are already behind. In saber or foil with right of way the directors style preferences or simply blinking can cost you points. The double touch in epee ensures someone cannot simply attack when they have no counter to your attack in hopes of the director throwing out the touch. They have to prevent your hit to ensure they "catch up". Plus the score doesnt stay tied at 4-4 for multiple actions.

[@joeyhochadel34]

Decently rated sport fencer, and HEMA military saberist here, also coming from watching your link. I'm gonna go ahead and jump down the throats of those of you who seem to have misunderstood what Matt is saying here, and say if you see this as sloppy or lacking in skill you have clearly no idea whats actually going on. Yes, the rules of modern sport fencing do create an atmosphere where a lot of double touches occur (though I have to say there were a lot fewer than what I expected based on Matt's commentary) but the reason for this is that the rules have evolved over time to eliminate what would be considered exploits. Strategies or tricks that if you did them, you were effectively unbeatable except by other people that did them. What you're seeing here is the result of a hundred years of rules tweaking to keep things "balanced". Yes this takes the sport away from its roots, but it keeps it being a sport, where HEMA is a game, and at best a martial art. And to those of you who seem to have misunderstood what Matt is saying, what we're watching here, to the eyes of someone who knows what they're looking at, was an incredible display of skill, timing, subtlety, and athleticism.

[@DantePopple]

(Former foil fencer) I think your right about the ugliness of modern fencing but I wonder how to fix it. Clearly the light cut off needs to be longer, but how much? While a cut with an actual sabre on flesh likely wouldn't make it physically impossible for the victim to fight further, they may be distracted by it enough that their next action is ineffective or too late. Essentially the wounded fencer must reset. I actually think the epee rule that simultaneous attacks both score makes a lot of sense if one thinks of each touch as an additional wound. Simultaneous wounding totally can happen and its not unreasonable to think it's slightly worse for the person already wounded (since it means fewer touches to make up any point deficits). It might make less sense in foil where a hit to most of the target area would cause death, absent modern medicine. In any case from what I've seen epee fencers display the most caution of all three weapons. I think foil and sabre fencers are reckless because they use right of way like an invisible shield. One other possibility could be to simply reward one light touches with more points as I understand is done in HEMA. If this is done without regard to right of way it would have the interesting effect of actually encouraging MORE counterattacks in foil. In sabre it would encourage more cautious attacks but also encourage fencers to keep their arms extended more as it would increase their chances of preventing one light touches. To me that seems to be consistent with historical fencing. Sure you can wound me with some reckless attack but you can be damn sure you'll be wounded too.

[@the-thane]

That was a painful video to watch. I even felt a bit embarrassed while watching it.

[@LucaPdor]

Ahahahah! Matt, it's so funny seeing you so emotionally involved! :D You almost look italian... By the way... I totally agree with you... that final was... sad.

[@andy4an]

now I want to see you helmet cam pool noodles more than ever

[@jacobyjones397]

One of the reasons he keeps doing the fist pump (I've fenced with someone who does this) might be to get the ref to give him the point. It doesn't really work, but if you get a double and act like you obviously got the point the ref might consider it. Again, it doesn't work, but its worth a shot, and at that point they are willing to do anything to win. Also, if the swords were real, they wouldn't move nearly as fast, so it would actually be possible to properly parry. At the speed they are going, its way too risky to attempt a parry since the other guy can just flick his wrist and hit you elsewhere. The people I regularly fence with do it for fun, so I would say it resembles historical fencing much more than those finals. Obviously Matt knows all this and I agree that they look dumb, but if the rules make one way of playing the best way to win, there is no way in hell these guys are risking it.

[@DrippinginSarcasm]

You seem to forget that, while yes it has been boiled down, the fist pumping and stuff is because on those simultaneous attacks, they have throw their support behind their attack, if they don't they could lose the point because the judge sees that they don't think they got the point.

[@WeAreSoPredictable]

Where were the sabres in this so-called sabre fencing? Hell, my not-very-cutty-for-a-rapier rapier would cut deeper than those silly, wibbly-wobbly car aerials. Martial arts of any kind + Olympics = embarrassment

[@EmpiricalPragmatist]

+WeAreSoPredictable Judo has done _okay_ in the Olympics so far, I think. The banning of Kani Basami has been a long time in the making due to the associated injury rate, but the new changes to grips and sweeps. o_O

[@WeAreSoPredictable]

EmpiricalPragmatist It's certainly fared relatively well, but then Olympic Judo is still just competition Judo, and that makes it a little silly. Banning the Kani Basami seems reasonable to me, as I tend to prefer to err on the side of safety if reasonable alternatives can be found. Watching Dimitri Peters Vs Ramziddin Sayidov, and halfway through the match the score is 1:0, and the two were just broken apart just as Ramziddin had only just rolled his opponent into back control with a collar grip. I understand that these are Judo competition rules, but that's about as silly as resetting a boxing match any time a boxer gets pushed into a corner. I also realise that it would grind down into a spectator-unfriendly BJJ match if the matches were allowed to continue on the ground, and the spirit of Judo and the Ippon would be lost. So *as Judo* what we see in the Olympics is fine, I guess. But as a martial art it's a little silly, as it's only really half of the martial art that we get to see. I guess since we're seeing _that half_ of the martial art being used pretty well it's not embarrassing, though - unlike Olympic Foot-slappies...erm...Taekwon-Do. :)

[@EmpiricalPragmatist]

+WeAreSoPredictable Yes, for me the important thing is "Does training for competition have direct value on your capabilities in a real fight?" Here of course fencing messes up completely, but Judo makes for excellent takedowns, and will benefit that area of your complete skill set no matter what happens to your ground game. It's a pity BJJ is regarded as spectator unfriendly. If only people were more familiar with the 1001 things going on in a high-level BJJ match, they would find it far more entertaining. The ground game in MMA too.

[@WeAreSoPredictable]

EmpiricalPragmatist Agreed, on all counts.

[@charlesreed5839]

This is perhaps the result of people playing to the letter of the rules and the limits of what judges/referees will allow. Something similar happened in point-based open karate tournaments years ago. Attacks just got strange, with players taking advantage of certain rules and referees allowing it. Many winning techniques ceased to resemble anything with even a smidgen of reality-based application. That warping of rules is what, some think, helped fuel the rise of MMA. And after a few years, MMA fighters started to adapt to rules and what refs would allow, and became something else again. Maybe a rules shake-up would reset some of the issues seen here?

[@yeroctehh4xor]

Wasn't Epee originally a practice weapon for a first blood dueling weapon? As an abstraction of an abstraction, it will likely inherently not resemble the original, but seems a decently accurate representation of what it directly is practice for.

[@SibylleLeon]

Ohmygods, I can't breathe... so spot on! LOL

Let's hope historical fencing doesn't go down that road.

[@DaaaahWhoosh]

It seems strange that the sport would go that way, you'd think the people in charge would do what they could to prolong the fights. Like, we can make good protective gear now, there's no reason to be using such tiny swords. Bigger swords mean more time to strike, which means more time to react, which means more entertaining fights.

[@willnonya9438]

Time to get a HEMA Olympic sport! wait.... that might be a trap...

[@sparrowhawk81]

I'm insanely late to the party here, but I've talked to young people who go to olympic style fencing tournaments. The fist pumping and screaming is all psychological. They actually practice it and don't really mean it in a lot of cases. They are attempting to subtly influence the director's judgement should they need to decide who was "on the attack" first if the hits are simultaneous. They are also trying to psych out their opponent. It's dumb.

[@andolion440]

yep you're right. The hungarian guy was really quick but he would be dead if he were fighting outside the sport. The French guy fell in to the trap of playing tag a few times as well. the problem could easily be remedied if they stopped rewarding points for simultaneous hits.

[@MusikCassette]

I suppose, the problem is, that producing a double has no downside. The chances of producing a double are probably higher, than the chances of actually defending against an attack. So it is the better defence against the other person scoring, to just hit him. within the context of a turnament you could actually fix that. In the way, that getting hit gives you disadvateges for the turnament. For example: you get plus one point for placing a hit, but minus two taking one. ( a double would in that logic give both fighters -1 point) in the and the one with the most points wins the turnament.

[@juliahenriques210]

It seemed to me that the Italian guy was a better fencer, while the Hungarian guy was a better sports fencer.

[@PsylomeAlpha]

Yes, most of the Italian guy's fails were based around him parrying or blocking in a manner that would work with any real sword against any real sword, and the other dude's sword whipping thirty degrees in and tapping him in the armpit.

[@devingendron2287]

As a matter of personal curiosity, how is sport fencing as far as teaching footwork that can be applied to HEMA? The college I plan to attend has fencing as an available class, and there are no HEMA clubs closer than a 6 hour drive in the area, and I don't have a car. I have or plan to acquire books on HEMA, particularly singlestick and broadsword, and am curious if taking fencing classes, namely epee and sabre, would be useful for learning the footwork etc.

[@devingendron2287]

Yep. Though it's an improvement over where I live now, which is another 5 hours than that. There are a definite shortage of HEMA Clubs here in California. Love the state for everything else, but that particular hobby falls by the wayside.

[@JustGrowingUp84]

+Devin Gendron Actually, that's the good part about sport fencing: footwork! I'd argue that most of sport fencing is that. And it can definitely be applied to HEMA, especially rapier and smallsword. Although note that they move mainly in a linear way, not sideways.

[@JustGrowingUp84]

+Devin Gendron Also, footwork in HEMA, like in all martial arts, is focused on balance and stability. Sport fencing is more about reflexes. You *will* have to unlearn some things if you then transition into HEMA, but it definitely gives you a great head start. I recommend you that if you take up sport fencing and try to learn HEMA by yourself, at least go to a HEMA club once or twice a year in order to have an instructor aid you, and correct whatever bad habits you might have picked. It helps a lot. :) Edit: And reflexes are pretty important, too.

[@devingendron2287]

TheFilthyCasual Thanks! Like I said, I wish I could go to a club more often, but once or twice a year should be manageable. Based on my research, the nearest to where I'm going to college is in LA, the aforementioned long drive, but I'm sure I'll find reasons to go into the city at least that often.

[@Naki728]

Actually i do think that epee in some occasions are more realistic than sabre and foil

[@ColonelSandersLite]

You know what would put an end to this? New Rule: If you get hit, you lose.

[@sephyrias883]

That looks like they're weilding iron noodles instead of blades.

[@MichaelJenkins910]

As a sport fencer: preach it, Matt! It's a damn shame that the sport/art has come to this.

[@Elderos5]

I have to say that those two are quite skilled at playing tag with a car antenna. I venture to say that if they were in a real fight with each other, with a real blade, they would probably both end up dead or at least severely injured.

[@georgederuiter1412]

I think, that the problem with modern sport fencing is not the sport itself, but the attitude by many fencers. On Tournaments the only goal to achieve is to win and that is also one reason why I dislike tournaments. The whole art of fencing isn´t present any more. One might just look in which way modern sport fencers greet each other: Not any more with these slow motions, the guard up to the amouth, but 2 or 3 small "blows" towards eacht other and the Obmann and that´s all. In order to bring back the real fencing style one should perhaps change the rule system or the system how points are achieved

[@Tananjoh]

Do you think it would be a good idea to replace right-of-way in sabre with an after-blow rule?

[@tomsta117]

Saber has definitely been ruined in the past few decades. They just charge in and try to tell the ref that they had priority, and then often get angry when the hit isn't given in their favour.

[@PsylomeAlpha]

Yeah, the best trades they had were when the Russian guy would take a hit to the sword arm so he could score a cut or stab to the italian's belly or chest, and even those were shitty trades since they were liable to permanently cripple their sword arm.

[@DonMeaker]

"Time thrust" was a counter to the attack.

[@jobusmobus4370]

Watched the video you linked, and I agree, it is rather silly. Good video btw!

[@mharm734]

Because the sabres were lightened too much it became difficult for directors to see the blade action clearly so a lot of directors basically direct by sound and an impression of motion that was too quick to follow which can be interpreted a lot of ways. The arm pumping and shouting are an attempt to influence the director's thoughts while they're mentally going over it in the seconds after the lights go off. Unfortunately you score so much better with the stupid arm pumping and shouting that you won't see any high level fencers not doing it. :(

[@martinvranovsky7085]

Aaargh - hit - aaargh - hit - hithithithit - aaaargh - hit :D What a nice rhythm.

[@Dhomazhir]

My step-father & a good friend of his are both former Nevada State Fencing Champs. in Foil & Saber respectively, have not liked several of the changes that have happened since they were champs in the '70's. Also- MY GOD!!! Holy shit that's a lot of Doubles. I can expect that in an SCA Crown final where at least the excuse is they've been in armor and fighting for hours. Also it's not celebrated but seen as a bit shameful.

[@Williamstanway]

a question for top five questions, why do I always hear that it took three,four,five,or even seven blows from an executioners axe in the executions throughout British history , I mean Anne Boleyn used a French swordsmen (supposedly) so there was clearly superior techniques out there. why did we use such a clearly inadequate tool? was it for a better show ? or just English stubbornness?

[@kanonierable]

+William Stanway Sounds like a nice question for the history chanel, or maybe National Geographic will also do a documentary, and if you're really lucky they'll do a series on "History's deadliest executioners" in the near future.

[@Williamstanway]

yes I understand most of the things you here are utter trash but I'm sure there could be a smidgen of truth. I'm sure elitist sarcasm weekly will be contacting you to write a column soon.

[@minuteman4199]

In epee fencing you can sometimes get a lot of doubles. It depends on who your opponent is, and how they fight. At our club, if we are only fencing a five point bout we don't count doubles, and you can't win on a double. The coach makes the kids do push ups when ever they score doubles.

[@jessesmith7553]

Okay I did see one good parry reposte from Occhiuzzi where he actually covered the line and successfully counter attacked.

[@jordanreeseyre]

The ridiculous cheering is mainly a show to try and convince the ref that it was you'r right of way. My uni fencing team (including the sabres') agree it's the silliest of the three weapons nowadays. With foil having right of way and epee ideally consisting of managing distance to hit without giving up a point sabre is kind of the derpy cousin.