Fetishising Gay Men | A Yaoi Discussion

[@XX-ej9qb]

The CRINGE when I heard a girl call the gay couple in my school yaoi

[@sunflowerseed6474]

Christ, cringe indeed

[@pjs4663]

Plsss girl that's just a regular couple trying to live peacefully. 💀 this ain't wattpad.

[@josie3340]

EWWW straight women🤮

[@kxtxa_]

@@josie3340 don't generalize like that tho

[@kai5430]

I had a situation that some girl came up to me and my girlfriend asking if we are dating and we said yes. She ran off screaming "yuriii". I'm also a weeb who reads yuri manga a lot, but that's just cringe.

[@Covenfan-lg4mx]

I think there is a difference between bl and hardcore yaoi with the latter leaning more towards lewd content, I personally as a gay man don’t think it’s inherently wrong with non mlm people enjoying that type of content my main issue is with self professed fujoshis who made their love of yaoi a part of their identity which does feel fetishistic

[@TheArtisanGeek]

Yup totally, I feel like there is a lot of misunderstanding with regards to the subgenres and also, unfortunately what often happens to fandoms it that the most obnoxious people become the most prominent.

[@fendybendy6466]

I totally agree on the fetishize aspect. Fujoshis are so strange, and being so obsessed with something like a sexual attraction between people who literally couldn't romantically care less about people of your gender, much less you, is so strange to me. I was one of those middle school kids who read probably too much yaoi, but I had never gotten to the point where I would see to males interact and be like "Ooh, I wonder if their gay" cuz that's frickin weird. I don't really read yaoi that is prominentely adult scenes anymore, and if I want to read something like it, I tend to lean on the more wholesome side, or I read stuff that has a lot of plot development, like on and off or fools.

[@meownover1973]

The word fujoshi is used sometimes interchangeably with the word "female otaku". Although it is mostly used to describe women who like gay fictional pairings, therefore this definition doesn't extend to real gay relationships. I do agree it's kinda weird to ship kpop idols together and it's generally frowned upon by most older fujoshi in the community.

[@dunnejos8423]

I don't know... A lot of BL and yaoi has themes of rape, sexual violence, gender denial (often accusing gay men of being women just for being into men) etcetera etcetera. Sex is often equated to dominance and violence which... Is yikes. The seme uke dynamic seems to be a reflection of something that actually exists in gay culture called Top/bottom respectively. But whereas in the gay community it only extends so far as sexual preference, in Yaoi/bl it is extended into their entire personality. It's kind of... Icky.

[@fendybendy6466]

@@dunnejos8423 yeah, i really dislike those types of yaoi, but it isn't too difficult if you just look at the cover for me. i have read quite a few mangas with 2 males as the romantic interests that are perfectly pleasant and really cute and gush worthy. i think, at the end of the day that "yaoi" in a Japanese context is going to be the stuff that you said has sexual themes, and the "shounen-ai, bl" is going to commonly be a lot more pleasant, and not aggressive.

[@fuyutoraa]

i think it's okay to read yaoi/BL BUT it starts becoming problematic when you project those fictional tropes and relationships on real men or start excusing the problematic plot points in the story just because it's "cute" because they're boys. i see this issue a lot with people who read manhwa 🤷

[@xxrandom_userxx9994]

Exactly!

[@nyansybones4983]

FACTS

[@knight-of-rain]

@@gh4939 I don't think noncon is that problematic in strictly erotic works, its just a fantasy, and a common one at that.

[@pizzermaster1145]

Or if youre a girl who's obsessed with bl/yaoi

[@baggachaos3406]

As a bi man I fully agree with this,,,

[@qualifiedarmchaircritic]

Is it just me or do booktubers who read diversely get "policed" a lot more than booktubers who absolutely don't read diversely

[@celticwelsh]

It's for the same reason that "right-wing" authors get less shit than "progressive" authors. If you don't give a shit then they can't police you, because it's like shouting into the ether.

[@JDT4]

@@celticwelsh Right wing authors get policed too, I think they're just more likely to get cancelled altogether so only the ugly ones really stick it out. The internet is just a horrible place sometimes.

[@miurtouissi1093]

@@JDT4 they don’t care that they get policed. It’s the same thing with following a religion or being vegan etc. Whenever you are trying to follow some type of moral standard , people will hold you accountable at a higher standard.

[@Carolina-wz2qo]

booktubers (or people in general) who are more interested in diverse reading attract audiences with similar interests and awareness; their viewers are usually more concerned with these issues, so it's a more common subject of conversation and criticism in these spaces.

[@britanyborens7168]

Those KZbinrs who only read novels by John Green and would recommend them like they weren't on every Barnes & Noble display

[@punk7999]

I'm gay and I like reading yaoi and bl. I personally don't see anything wrong with straight women enjoying the genre as long as they observe a clear distiction between fiction and reality. --Being a 'fujoshi' isn't an indentity-- Opposing that would be fetishizing.

[@isaacevilman7586]

I mean, the term fujoshi has a long history. It was actually a homophobic and misogynistic insult against women who enjoyed mlm content and supported the LGBTQ community by calling them rotten. It’s a homophone with the word for “married woman” but changing the character used to represent the mora “fu” turned it into “rotten girl.” The term was then reclaimed and embraced which made it into more of an identity. In Japan, nowadays, it’s just a word for a woman who enjoys mlm content. There’s no inherent fetishy implications that go along with it.

[@priiifrg]

@@isaacevilman7586 I disagree. Self-proclaimed fujoshis objectify gay men and most of them even go as far as ‘shipping’ straight guys in real life (and that includes celebrities) to satisfy their fetish. Oh and they are so cringy it’s very common that they will say they find hetero romances disgusting ou boring, even though they are straight themselves. So yeah, they are obsessed with m/m relationships and that’s not respectful or healthy.

[@katieroxttylxox]

​@@isaacevilman7586 i understand where you are coming from but there have been research/papers that breakdown what fujoshi means to a lot of woman in japan and it being 'just a word for a woman who enjoys mlm content' is not always the case. some women consider being a fujoshi similar to being a sexual minority and they 'come out' as a fujoshi. obviously thats really harmful to actual lgbtq people because their experience in japan is much different from a straight fujoshi's, no one is going to be fired from their job for reading yaoi, but people in the community often get fired or bullied out of work because they arent cishet. if you want to read about it it's in this paper www.webcitation.org/69VoOtasa?url=imrc.jp/2010/09/26/20100924Comics%20Worlds%20and%20the%20World%20of%20Comics.pdf

[@notlikeyouneedmyname.4378]

@@isaacevilman7586 Yeah, I was actually a self-proclaimed fujoshi when I was 12 or something ( a crappy phase, I still read it cuz I'm actually pan and I too get a warm feeling when I see someone can have a gay relationship and being happy ) a few years later I finally picked up it's something bad because it has the same meaning in Chinese and now I just cringe whenever someone shows off how proud they are to be one, bothering people about it , making people uncomfortable, even sexually assaulting cosplayers to fulfill a ship. Like this isn't something to be proud with, people like that ruins it for everyone.

[@sitizulaikha7875]

@@isaacevilman7586 may I add here that I've read somewhere that rotten just means that reading bl makes you frown upon and unmarried-able 👋🏻

[@faeshyye6193]

i hate when people assume that all yaoi is inherently problematic. there’s a lot of really good stories and representation out there, but they get overshadowed by the gross stuff and it’s super annoying

[@quiestumeme1228]

which is the majority, as as a gay man i find a lot to be problematic

[@stef9656]

Your comment is so TRUE ! I read BL books that consist of a very healthy relationship.... and I don't believe I have ever come across the toxic ones. I really don't know what BL books the people in the comments have read to make them think that way. I feel sorry for them.

[@kasia2750]

@@stef9656 seriously? You never come across problematic ones? No "i'm not gay, i only like him" trophe? No alpha-omega shit? No plots starting with one lead being awfull to other and then transformed by power of highly selective gay love? No supporting lgbtq+ characters, that get touchy with one of the leads and seem to not understand that no mean no? No women characters that are only therw to be this bitch, that try to steal somebody's boyfriend? If so, please give me some title recomendation, i would love to read this novels if they are so toxic free.

[@digdigdigo]

no. yaoi is inherently sexualized, the 'good representation' comes from shounen ai and BL

[@euahbesoyo1638]

@@kasia2750 doukyuusei is good :>

[@vestigiaI]

this isn't that related but i just want to say that ayo 🔊 killing 🔊 stalking 🔊 relationship 🔊 isn't 🔊 healthy 🔊 stop 🔊 defending 🔊 sangwoo

[@TBT707]

Say it louder 👏👏👏

[@chikapu3128]

i hate when they say that it's BL when the author said it is not and she was weirded out when they ship yoonbum and sangwoo together 😩😩😩😩

[@myuuwah8443]

I wanna slap this at every girl in my social media account who always ship them and WISHING that they should have a happy ending. WHEN THEY HAD A SUPER TOXIC RELATIONSHIP.

[@vegasunfeededpet]

This!This is the argument that they used to stop people from reading yaoi

[@notareallin620]

I've never seen killing stalking. Looks kinda scary...

[@Kollector_K]

I'm a 32 year old Black gay man in the U.S., and I really would like to see you review more yaoi and manga in general. I use to be read them heavily as a teen. It was the only way I could express my sexual orientation at the time. I still have all of those books today. I never got the vibe that you were fetishizing gay men, because your description of Depth of Field sounded innocent. You also had a yuri in your haul if I recall correctly. I know it's hard, but don't let trolls and haters get to you. Here are a few yaoi I would recommend, they are quite old now: Yellow, FAKE, and Earthian. Yellow and FAKE are similar where it's kind of like a "buddy cop" story. Earthian is about angels, and has beautiful artwork.

[@AvgJane19]

+

[@darth3266]

Thank you for the recommendations!

[@bookswithike3256]

I recently bought the first volume of Yellow, but I was wary about it, so it's encouraging to hear another gay man regard it positively.

[@ManubibiWalsh]

Shimanami Tasogare is also really good and sweet.

[@devsland4139]

FAKE is one of my favorite stories because it’s more of a slow love story and has awesome action scenes. Also, Dee Laytner is FIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNEEEEE

[@Kiki-reads]

“A lot of people tell me that I’m not reading diversely enough” I’m sure Seji doesn’t need me to say this, but she already reads very diversely. Of the booktubers I follow, I don’t know of anyone who is as conscious about reading from various races, lgbtq+ authors, neurodiverse authors etc. There are hundreds of millions of books out there, one can never be well-read across ALL cultures and identities. Too many books, too little time.

[@vicentesaldivia937]

ikr ! i was so surprised when she said that. i feel like i dont know any other booktuber that reads more diversely than her

[@janbonne]

Agreed and her choices are so amazing and how she shares them with us are generous beyond belief

[@Themoment888]

Readwithcindy is also a great booktuber who's conscious of diversity and critical thinking.

[@BewareTheLilyOfTheValley]

It's a case people bi*ching about her not reading what they read. Shut up, let the woman enjoy whatever she wants, she's not supposed to be some carbon copy of you (not "you" as in anyone in this thread, I mean the ones complaining).

[@mai_cello]

@@Themoment888 I was just about to say this. Yes, Cindy reads diversely too. :)

[@cuppiesaur]

I love Yaoi and Yuri - and yeah, they can be SUPER fetishized sometimes, but they could be done well. I mean, it is not like ALL straight mangas do have a NON problematic romantic relashionship, right?!. So, to me, it seems dumb to say "oh, don't read this or that", especially when you are reading a story that are being developed in each volume. Unless you know it is a problematic story, you have to read the story as the volumes are released to form an opinion and to know if it is a bad or good/problematic or not/ fetishize it or not manga.

[@TheArtisanGeek]

Yup exactly!!

[@chibikenma]

Or echie

[@BadKarma108]

You liking yaoi or yuri is already messed up

[@BadKarma108]

I really wouldn't call it yaoi if u read helathy mangas about lgbt then is not yaoi it's just normal relationships.

[@Whatingodsname]

@@BadKarma108 none of what you just said made any sense to me yaoi just means two men fucking each other and that's really it it's still smut even if the people having it are in a healthy relationship I understand where you're coming from but it's just porn (yaoi) and all porn is fetishy Porn isn't putting the lgbtq+ in a bad light in fact let me tell you right now I'm bisexual and people watching this kind of porn is normal and it was part of how I realized I was kinda gay You can watch whatever you want to watch/read as long as you don't hurt REAL LIFE PEOPLE that are some what similar to whatever you were watching/reading

[@connor-cg1iy]

I feel as if the problem with yaoi is the ways that people consume it, like if a straight woman were to enjoy queer content, I think that's fine, but if a straight women were to consume yaoi in a way that dehumanizes mlm, or enforces stereotypes on mlm (i.e, the bottom and top stereotypes, the assigning gender roles in mlm relationships, etc.), then it would be a problem. But honestly, consuming and enjoying LGBTQ+ content isn't a problem so long as you are not supporting these ideas, or supporting people who support these ideas. Those are my two cents, at least.

[@mrsMashimaro]

it's fictional. as long as a person doesn't treat real gay people that way it doesn't matter.

[@pizzermaster1145]

Also when they are obsessed with bl

[@pizzermaster1145]

@@mrsMashimaro It kind of does

[@Hannah-uv8hy]

i agree!

[@mrsMashimaro]

@@pizzermaster1145 how?

[@LABYYY]

I like BL, but I seriously thinks it’s really gross when people see two attractive men and go “ou I ship them, I wonder who’d be the top/bottom”

[@anbuX101]

I can't believe you've been criticized for "not reading diversely enough" when the rest of booktube is an echo chamber of the same western YA books over and over lol... you're one of the only channels that I come to for diverse recommendations I know I won't find on other channels!

[@bigbookenergy6440]

Right?! Not diversely enough?! This is the most diverse channel I have found so far, especially considering how much she reads outside of what's popular in the US

[@unknowns78]

Yea and also can she read what she want

[@EmmaPie13]

It’s the damn irony. People who don’t try to read diversely don’t get called out for that smh

[@antonioscendrategattico2302]

@@EmmaPie13 Sadly some people are just incapable of seeing things with nuance, and feel the need to loudly put down others for not being "moral enough". But that's a childish conception of morality and gives concepts like diversity and representation a bad rap for no reason.

[@noah1502]

as a young gay woman, yaoi was something i could relate to. i also see other gay women being drawn to it.

[@matchasketch8224]

As a lesbian, I agree. I don’t like most yuri because I can’t really connect to it, but I can connect to more BL (for the simple reason that there’s just more available than yuri) where both characters play a more equal role and there’s no strict seme/uke dynamic or one partner that’s made more feminine/masculine (though those are extremely hard to find). Maybe it’s because I feel that a lot of yuri is wholly unrealistic compared to my experience (and super idealized and fluffy and pure), so I just can’t treat it as a story to enjoy. I wish a lot of tropes in BL and GL didn’t exist though, and that they could just be treated as any other romance story. I don’t know why but yuri manga has a tendency to have the main couple to be all cute, feminine, and pure, but I would like to see more stories with more butch women or more mature women (where are yuri about adults or college students? Why do they all take place in catholic high schools???) - anyways sorry about the rant. Simply said, I have a complicated relationship with bl, but I prefer bl over gl bc there is way more variety and I can relate to it more

[@TheUnicornWhisperer]

Im a lesb 2 and honestly yuri girls r too young. With yaoi there older, and i like older girls but i relate more to yaoi since theyre usually older

[@emmanuelaadebisi5743]

Bi but I agree that’s why I watch bl

[@emmanuelaadebisi5743]

There just isn’t enough GL

[@cidevant002]

The stereotyope of a fujoshi in Japan is a lesbian so I would say that you are not alone on that lol

[@reyyxoxo]

as a gay guy, i don't think there's anything inherently wrong w/ yaoi, as long as it's kept to the fictional world. drawing/reading yaoi of real people, or projecting yaoi-ish stuff on real people is HIGHLY offensive. I absolutely HATE when people say crap like "oh i wish i was a gay guy x3" or "omg yaoi gaybies xD" or saying anything of the sorts, especially to real mlm couples. Keep it fictional.

[@lynxaway]

I know from experience that a lot of people who say they wish they were gay guys are in fact yet to realize that they ARE gay guys (that is, they’re trans men who like men), so that’s something to keep in mind if you see it on social media or whatever, though of course you’re not obligated to be the understanding party if someone is saying it to you irl in a way that makes you uncomfortable. As a lesbian I’ve put in effort over the years to understand how not-yet-realized trans lesbians engage with lesbian content, so it’s the same principle, I think. Always good to be aware of these things! Especially if you’re cis.

[@reyyxoxo]

@@lynxaway I am a trans guy, and I do understand where they're coming from! However, whenever I've been told things like this, it's usually cis people. I'm speaking from personal experience, I agree not everyone's like how I've met. However, always try my best to see from that perspective (i.e they might not realize they're trans yet.)

[@lynxaway]

@@reyyxoxo Ah, glad to hear it! Thanks for clarifying. Now that I’m really thinking I’m remembering that a major source of annoyance for _me_ is straight women saying they wish they were lesbians in a rather tone-deaf way, sometimes right to our faces....! It is, indeed, tricky to navigate. Wishing you the best, dude :-)

[@ferideylmaz6114]

@@lynxaway It's not always related to being actually trans though. Most of those straight girls wishing they were gay boys feel like they would have better relationships with boys if they were boys themselves,because they wanna have the same relationship dynamics they see on those series ,with boys deep down. That's because gender inequality and other social norms,gender stereotypes etc. you know harm straight relationships so much,and usually leads them to be toxic or less genuine . They feel like it's almost impossible their het relationships would be like what they see in bl series or gay relationships featured on other series , with their gender identity so they feel a bit sad and envious :/ For instance, I feel like people of the same gender understand each other in a way so much better than people of opposite genders could ever do and trust each other much more given a lot of comments and experiences confirming my idea , hence get an impression get same sex couples in general feel superior to straight ones in general , while not wishing to be a gay boy. Like it's likely to be just an illusion or is just a case with a louder minority but sometimes it just feels like they look down on hetero love and that makes me a bit triggered ,even though i know that's not always the case and I shouldn't get angry at it . I absoulutely know that it's wrong to obsess over this and i might find a perfect relationship one day as a straight girl.But for now, when i see so much pessimism around het relationships created by girls i feel dissapointed and wanna attack them whether they're lgbt+ or not but try hard not to do, and instead watch wholesome straight content that portrays healthy relationships that can take away those obsessive thoughts as well as my dissapointment and help me not have hatred for any group of people. Neverthless I hope everything gets better for lgbt+ community as it is not only what they deserve as human beings but also a revoulution for gender equality and human rights as well. This will benefit all opreesesed or ailenized group of people and hopefully give straight people the real happines, equality and freedom in their relationships which they lack most of the time. P.S : My writing style might be unnatural ,therefore unpleasent to read btw , I might have made mistakes too because English is nor my first language neither is a language in which I could study enough to develop my writing skills, but i am really trying to convey my ideas in a better,more articulate way ; sorry for now :((

[@Limacinablues]

You maybe will hate me of this. But I used to be an fujoshi like them...

[@honeyy5240]

side note for everyone in concerns of this theme: Killing Stalking is not Yaoi or Boy's love, it's a psychological thriller/horror, their relationship is based on abuse and trauma, the Manhwa itself is an amazing work of art but it's not love

[@wanyeelee8792]

It really does depend who u ask. the labeling of BL stories and mangas can be quite vague, for example killing stalking is marketed as a BL in Japan the label there doesn’t mean that a bl manga cannot be a psychological thriller nor that the content in question is necessary romanticized or seen as ideal. you’d be surprised to know that the bl genre has a pretty big sub genre of darker and grittier stories. the mangaka harada for example is infamous for their psychological bl work, not all bl stories have to be taken as romances or ideals.

[@bozo154]

I am a gay man and I don't have issues with yaoi as a whole (I even have other friends who are mlm who actually read both explicit and non-explicit yaoi) but there are just so many titles that perpetuate the awful stereotypes and the ones that don't are incredibly hard to find that it makes it hard to know how to feel about yaoi. I think if someone is reading and promoting titles that portray healthy relationships and discourage others from reading the toxic ones, I have no issue with them reading yaoi. Honestly, my biggest concern is just about younger people, both gay and straight, finding the bad yaoi and having bad views of mlm relationships. When I was in high school, I had some straight girls that I was friends with who found Killing Stalking and perceived the relationship as okay (it is about a man who kidnaps another man and does awful things to him) and it made me deeply uncomfortable. Part of the reason they thought what they were doing was acceptable was because of the culture online that viewed that sort of fetishization okay, spurred on by the mass libraries of yaoi that promoted the same thing. I don't think I can definitively say that yaoi is good or bad but the current state of the genre isn't good and I don't know the solution.

[@elijahtrenton8351]

Yh that's kinda how I feel too.

[@jartalol31]

That's not actually exclusive to BL since a lot of het romance has this problem too. And while majority of BL is supposed to be romance, it doesn't mean it's exclusively romance. Killing Stalking is a dark psychological BL and not a romantic one. I've only ever read the 1st season and I did hear that the 2nd season was weaker but the 1st season I've read is actually really good. I got chills reading it.

[@BadKarma108]

You would be if you had problems in the past you would hate ppl like this

[@chicagos.pop.princess]

@@jartalol31 That’s weird bc the creator specifically said it was not a yaoi/bl, but rather a psychological thriller that just so happened to be about two men involved in a messed up relationship. Stans just twisted it up and perceived it as love or intimacy when it’s really just abuse.

[@dippledopple]

I've seen a number of women who create mlm fabrics and project themselves into the relationships where one is feminine and the other isnt. It's just them disguised as the male character, or you can tell anyway

[@TheArtisanGeek]

Oh there's a clip of me missing at the end, but essentially it says this would be a great opportunity to find some great gay titles, so please do feel free to leave them down below :) I also want to say I'm NOT telling people what they can and cannot read, that's none of my business lmao -- this is purely me talking about the situation I am in as someone who frequently talks about and promotes books. Also, KZbin keeps instantly deleting comments -- I don't know what to do about that, but I don't have any restrictions on words or anything like that, sorry!

[@cosyreadingtimes8857]

This is now I the second time I can't find the comment I posted under your video. So either something went wrong and it actually failed to upload or I just can't see it and there are actually two comments from me here. In that case, I'm very sorry. In the other case: I highly recommend the Manga series Blue Flag (Ao No Flag) by Kaito. It's mostly a Manga about friendship and coming of age (+the lead romance is straight), but there are also two queer characters within the main cast (since they only come out through the series it would be a spoiler to get any more specific at this point). It's in general very wholesome and tackles quite a few deeper topics which I think it handles quite respectful and well. In German there are 6 volumes out so far, I don't know if it's been translated to English yet.

[@assl4321]

Shimanami Tasogare is really good! Also, you can check out the Doukyuusei series, Ganbare Nakamura-kun, and Hourou Musuko!

[@fendybendy6466]

fools is a korean boy love/shounen ai comic i like a lot. it's an online one, but it's quite pleasant to read and very wholesome.

[@elijahtrenton8351]

My comments keep getting deleted even when I censored myself?

[@elijahtrenton8351]

@@cosyreadingtimes8857 same ☹️

[@rexgeorgerodriguez7620]

I found it strange that some fans of yaoi are homophobic to real gay couples. I know its sounds ridiculous but it really happens.

[@Gabbyy_Gabriella]

Exactly 💀👊👊👊👊

[@Riaah_love]

They be hatin on lesbians too

[@landmindssoul4636]

​@lagabbybubbles9344 wait how??! 😂

[@leedollarbeansiyeon8874]

I'm lesbian and I have 3 siblings who fetishize gay relationships a lot. They only like gays when they're like drawing or fictional but they get grossed out when its an actual person.

[@leedollarbeansiyeon8874]

I cringe when i hear them talking about bl esp when they talk abt the s*x scene like "who's the top" "who's the bottom"

[@vincentvitug190]

Pls their like my classmates i guess their homophobic which is disgustin..

[@SamuelSamuelSamuel1]

I’m gay and I have a lesbian sister. We have to suffer with my straight brother being OBSESSED OVER LESBIANS and my straight sister ONLY READING GAY SMUT. Atleast I got some bonding with my sister over how awful it is to hear them talk about gay people 💀

[@Lullayable]

Whilst I'm aware of the shortcomings this genre has, I'm also really grateful it exists because this was the first type of LGBTQ+ content I ever had access to as a kid. I used to read most of my mangas online and as a straight woman, I certainly think it helped to open my mind to a sexual orientation that wasn't as heavily discussed when I was a child. It led me to read books about LGBTQ+ characters without ever thinking it was strange and just consuming books about said characters because I enjoyed them. Now, as an adult and more informed reader, I can say yaoi mangas have shortcomings but not all of them do. I definitely do not think that all of them are written to fetishize homosexual relationships, but I'm open to recommendations from LGBTQ+ people who feel that way since it's not an experience I share with them.

[@henloworld514]

same, as a girl born into a pretty homophobic family and homophobic school friends, bl mangas have really helped me learn how beautiful all types of relationships can be

[@tookawaii9765]

@@henloworld514 Me too...

[@kadeoberon7117]

There is this stereotype that yaoi is for straight women, yet the vast majority of yaoi fans I personally know are LGBT. They're not all perfectly written thats for sure, but a lot of us are just grasping for what representation we can find.

[@isaacevilman7586]

We also have to consider the culture it’s written in. Japan is far more conservative than the West. A lot of BL tropes exist because that’s how Japanese society actually views gay relationships.

[@johnross5098]

Yeah, but I feel like bara is more "for gay men" while yaoi is more "for straight women", even if bara is yaoi.

[@RenaissanceRockerBoy]

@@got500won5 well tik tok is mostly 13-16 year olds, which is definitely the age when people are the most likely to be in a cringed immature headspace

[@beatrizsegovia4871]

​@@got500won5 A little clarification, Killing Stalking is not yaoi, despite having a gay couple as protagonists. The problem with this manhwa is the romanticization that the readers themselves imposed.

[@cookie1271]

@@got500won5 The problem is, you're on TikTok were majority of the people are teen/preteen girls

[@sweetchocolatesecret]

I really feel icky about some of Yaoi/BL culture. Mostly because, being a kpop fan, people use these tropes on idols, mostly Asian men,all the time and make assumptions about people they don't even know. These are REAL people and it's okay to have crushes on these people and like them but making leaps in logic about these relationships is not really okay!

[@youbasictoxicconch]

I'm not a K-Pop fan myself, but I often stumble into a considerable portion of the community that's blatantly projecting sexuality/gender identity headcanons onto their idols, and that's very uncomfy to see...Obviously this isn't only happening in K-Pop culture, but there's been a large number of idols subjected into fan tropes that I find quite unsettling. I wish people could view them as human beings and treat their relationships as such.

[@tookawaii9765]

I understand how a lot of people can be toxic "shippers", but as long as don't project it or believe in it, I think it's fine...it would be just fictional scenarios, the real problem comes from delusional people who whole heartedly believe it's real when it's probably not.

[@olgak4446]

Oh snap! Yeah, that’s one of the biggest reason I’m not really in any fandom. I’m just really uncomfortable with all those edits like “Sope being a perfect match for x minutes straight”, like, these are real people with real emotions.

[@titanenwurz-4shorts-etc]

I agree. I get that there is a demand for represantation, but some things just go way too far. I remember when Sunmi cut her nails and because she said she supports LGBTQ+ before, people wrote certain uncomfortable comments under her pictures and were "certain" she's gay and "tehehee".. "fingering". Many things came across like harassment... and she even wrote "what's wrong with my nails?" as a comment somewhere because she didn't understand. Turns out, that it's because of an instrument she plays or something. It's like, when I read about people being sure that their K-pop idol or anime character is gay, based on wrong facts or wishful thinking and then they get offended when you tell them they are either wrong or rude and can't know for sure... I don't mind when people live out their fantasy in a closed room, but they should know what it is - fantasy. I cringe when everything remotely affectionate between the same sex is seen as gay. You should know what a joke is, what fantasy is and what reality is and where the line was crossed.

[@mori9226]

You can read yaoi and stuff but when you see two men and you go I wonder who’s top/bottom is weird and problematic

[@moiramember]

Literally I've seen so many straight relationships that at this point I just like to read about same sex couples working out a relationship and I'm a sucker for wholesome stories.

[@kittycat-ud4ym]

same here

[@plainroz6771]

Same, I feel like also with the LGBTQ community not being fully accepted yet in most parts of the world, it makes some of the problems in the stories more realistic (I know about this first hand since I'm a genderfluid pansexual), I've had enough of the whole 'Mean Girls' kind of problems in stories to be honest. It's rather refreshing seeing real problems being depicted.

[@randomposts7424]

Same here, do any of you guys have recommendations?

[@Sephora_Sade]

@@randomposts7424 I don't know much, but "I cannot reach you" , "Salad Days", "This Question is super difficult", and "SaYe" are all really amazing stories. In Salad Days, I'd say that the romance specifically gay romance is a "subplot". The main plot is them striving for their goals in ballet and boxing while dealing with family, competition, friends, love, and so on. I believe this story is ongoing with 70+ chapters. Really good story. I like how the other characters actually have a bit of depth to them and aren't just "background" so the MC's can shine. I Cannot Reach You is in a highschool setting. It's a slow burn best friends to lovers. To summarize, best friend has always been in love with the MC, mc doesn't know it and as the story goes on he starts to realize this. But, then he sort of becomes unsure about his own feelings. This story has me hooked so far. It goes at a steady, slowburnish pace. I like the subtle cute moments they have and their relationship as friends is pretty solid. There's been a few misunderstandings between them.. Overall, it's a decent read. "This Question is super difficult" is probably my favorite out of this list. It's about a "school bully" that is caught by the smartest kid in the school climbing back into school grounds after skipping. This entire event was during a thunderstorm, which supernaturally made them switch bodies. Yes, literally switch bodies. And the "school bully" isn't very smart! So he does have a hard time answering questions in class which lead to some hilarious comedic moments. 💀 the art is very good too. It's a slow burn, I guess you're probably noticing a pattern here? it's not just slow burn though, but in my opinion the most "realistic" slowburn. Like, they don't fall in love with each other right off the bat, but as they share more moments together they start to develop deeper feelings & learn about eachother. It's ongoing, and the story isn't at the part where they kiss or hug (atleast in the english translation its not) so don't expect a kiss on chapter 19 lmao. But it'll feel more real when we get to that point. "SaYe" is significantly different from these other stories I've listed. A more realistic, less comedic theme this story has. It's not a super depressing story or anything, but told from the lower class perspective? So, the MC finds out that his parents aren't his biological parents and he leaves to go be with his bio dad and bio family. He just isn't feeling the vibe of the family, specially since his bio dad is a drunk. His bio mom isn't there with them anymore. If I can recall, he's outside one day and the love interest's little sister is being bullied outside or was left outside perhaps? He calls up the love interest and he comes over to get his sis. From then on they start to gradually get more acquainted. Very beautiful intimate moments in this story. The art is mesmerizing.

[@a1inlxc305]

Same, I’ve seen way too many male and female relationships that I just need to stop cause I’m starting to find it annoying

[@alec2702]

hi, an mlm here, i believe personally that it is ok to consume bl and other forms of mlm relationships in media as long as you don’t read it because its mlm. i’m not saying you shouldn’t read an mlm story because you want to read it because it has lgbtq+ relationship, but you should treat it the same as a wlw or a nblm/nblw/nblnb relationship. as long as you interact with it the same as any other lgbtq+ relationship its fine.

[@0rangeeige199]

preach my guy

[@vitoriaberzatto]

Thank you for your comment, I was so scared of being called a fetichist(if the Word is wrong sorry english is not my pattern language) because I like to read lgbtqia+ contents like heartstopper, heaven's official blessing, 19 days, etc, and ship characters of books and animes and really scared that I could being disrespectful to gay men because I'm a cis straight woman that reads those contents because of the plot and romance. Well, I'm still scared of being misunderstood tho

[@trash6950]

I’m a bisexual girl but always felt scared about people finding out that I enjoy reading BL because of all those bad popular troupes that give the community such a bad reputation

[@nick2709]

So just don't talk ...🤷🏽‍♀️ It's like me for example, I watch some anime and read some manga, and my brother thinks I'm those toxic otaku

[@Luckykougga]

Ur fucking gross , stop reading bl its fetishing gay people

[@Niko-qc8uw]

In my opinion a big reason for why yaoi could be seen as “problematic” is cause it’s largely not targeted towards gay people but towards straight women. I think that kind of often makes the representation lacking, of course there are exceptions but yeah. Ideally I think that stories about minorities should primarily be for those same groups of people to enjoy.

[@0rangeeige199]

Fr, it also happens with Lesbian content, most of its consumers are straight men

[@iknowthatyouregayfireflies9992]

Yeah, i see the pattern. "BL" for straight women, "GL" for straight men.

[@mr.trashcan1707]

Before I start, for context I am myself a gay man, and I've discussed these things with other mlm in the past and for the most part found that people tend to agree with me at least to some extent. I welcome discussion, of course, but I ask that non-mlm (especially self-professed "fujoshis") take the time to genuinely consider what I'm saying and the reasoning I provide. I discuss some historical matters briefly about how yaoi formed as a genre in Japan and if anyone would like sources on that, I'd be happy to provide some. Let's get right into it, then. Yaoi, as a genre and an aspect of Japanese media culture (specifically the whole "fujoshi" subgroup and their culture, which feeds into and is closely tied to otaku culture and fandom culture at large) is inherently based upon the fetishization of gay men and their relationships. When I say fetishization of gay men, I mean one of two things. The first is the literal definition of the word, gay male relationships being reduced to sexuality alone, typically for the enjoyment of straight people. This is something that is persistent even in nonsexual yaoi in the form of things like homophobic stereotypes of archetypal relationship roles based upon sex, the taboo of gay relationships being highlighted for entertainment, etc. The next way I mean this is a bit harder to detect, and perhaps more insidious. The other thing yaoi as a genre does, specifically less sexually explicit yaoi, is oversimplify gay men and their relationships until they become an almost cartoonish caricature which ultimately dehumanizes them. Those archetypal relationship roles I mentioned? That's the most prominent example. As a direct result of the sexual fetishization of gay men and their relationships, they become watered down to easily digestible quirky stereotypes, and those stereotypes are rooted in homophobic preconceived notions about gay men. The formation of all of these media portrayals is obviously motivated by the reaction of fans. People pay money for manga that caters to these homophobic portrayals of gay men, and so the demand increases. In Japan, censorship laws have historically made the positive portrayal of LGBT+ people very difficult. However, yaoi as a genre is so non-threatening to the status quo about gay men (and in many cases is even regressive) as well as so popular that it was able to develop relatively uninhibited. Yaoi became so popular in the first place when fujoshis as a subculture/group began to form. These typically teenage girls who were massive fans of the yaoi genre as a whole. In many ways, one might even consider it somewhat a feminist movement. Teenage girls were embracing interests that society at large found dirty and shameful, expressing their sexuality openly and objectifying men in a way that they considered subversive. The term "fujoshi" is a smugly reclamatory term that translates approximately to "rotten girl" and was embraced with pride. The central message here of teenage girls embracing their identities and disregarding the constant pressure from society regarding literally everything about them, the idea of young girls uniting under a shared interest and reclaiming the idea of being dirty or shameful, that sounds absolutely amazing on paper. However, as I discussed, this was done by means of fetishizing gay male relationships. The dirty and shameful interest that girls were embracing was the concept of gay men and gay relationships in general. In essence, they weren't saying, "Yeah, we support gay men, we want to hear their stories!" They were saying, "Yeah, gay men **are** dirty and shameful. We like them because they're dirty and shameful." By using gay men as stepping ladder for their own liberation, they furthered the stigmatization and sexualization of gay male relationships in a way that is still deeply impactful in Japan to this day. Asian gay men I've spoken to have talked about how they still suffer the consequences of that stigmatization. Even gay men who aren't Asian, even in America, face this stigmatization in ways that range from rude comments and assumptions online to genuine barriers to LGBT+ rights in their country. This wasn't started by the yaoi genre and it certainly wouldn't suddenly stop if it disappeared, but yaoi has perpetuated homophobia on a major scale, especially in Japan. Because of the feminist roots of the fujoshi subculture, however, it is often very difficult to criticize those who engage in this kind of media. I'm here to say, though, that teenage girls (and Japanese teenage girls) can do better. They deserve to be respected, to be valued as the three-dimensional human beings they are, and they don't have to exploit gay men to do so. The only successful activism is that which is intersectional. As for those who still really enjoy yaoi, or some aspect of it, that's fine. No, really, you're allowed to like and read yaoi! However, it is your responsibility to be critical of the media you consume and consume it responsibly. Consider why you like the things you like, and what that could mean about internalized beliefs you have. Do the work necessary to be a good ally, engage in activism and research, understand why people are saying the things you like are harmful. If you are doing all that, are respecting LGBT+ people and putting in the effort, you can read and enjoy whatever you like. You probably shouldn't pay for things that contribute to harmful institutions, but hey, that's your choice to make. Also, I'm pretty sure there's a lot of free manga online, including yaoi. I know this is a very long comment, but I thought it was really important to be thorough. I don't think it's fair to just brush it off as "Yaoi isn't that bad!" and I don't think it's fair to ignore the feminist roots of fujoshi culture either. The situation is complicated and nuanced, but the fact remains that yaoi as a genre (and the fujoshi subculture) is deeply flawed and rooted in homophobic fetishization.

[@omowako]

I'm not a mlm (I'm a cis bi female), but I really agree with a lot of your message, especially about consuming yaoi responsibly. But I would like to add a little bit more about yaoi propagating homophobic ideas on a large scale (if that's all right with you). The yaoi community is flawed. DEEPLY. Without a doubt I agree with you. I've seen many fujoshis who “support” gay relationships but not lgbtq+. And these problems are often a product of the societies. Most of these women/girls consume such media without lgbtq+ context. In their mind, traditional relationship structures(meaning one must be masculine, the other feminine) are just “the norm” because they don't have anything else to reference it on, and that why the yaoi community has become problematic. The current lack of lgbt awareness in some countries have made it more difficult for “fujoshis” to correctly understand gay relationships. Thus it is not just propagating harmful stereotypes but also reflecting what they have basically been taught by their societies.

[@karenholl2489]

i love your comment! I actually think i've read the same article you got a lot of that info from about teenage girls sexualizing gay men as a way to subvert the way they've been sexualized. i found it on one of my bored jstor browsing sessions lol. i also totally agree with your point about consuming yaoi conscientiously. i'm not a straight woman but i am a bi woman and i too try to make it a point to be critical of the content i consume because i think people fall into a trap and think only straight women can fetishize. my point is kind of irrelevant here cuz i don't really read any actual yaoi so i don't have the same knowledge but i have watched a lot of asian bl shows which also can be problematic. normally i purposefully choose shows that represent healthy lgbt relationships cuz that's honestly what i'm here to see, that's my personal draw to the bl genre. And for the shows i watch that play into problematic stereotypes i always take those with a grain of salt.

[@cookie1271]

Japan is definitely progressing and getting better in terms of how they view gay relationships. I don't even think a lot of the Japanese people know the existence of the BL genre. My main problem is, majority of those who criticize "fujoshi" is a straight male, and they condemn girls who consume BL in a very sexist way. When people criticize "fujoshi", it's usually in a way to repress the sexual liberation of a woman and that's where this whole fujoshi culture gets complicated. Condemning fujoshi for fetishizing gay relationships is very understandable, but hating on them because people are still trapped in the mindset that women are "non-sexual beings" that cannot express any sexual freedom is completely wrong. This mindset is especially common in anime otaku culture where a lot of the anime are leaned towards male entertainment with tons of sexualization & unrealistic portrayal of women.

[@vipulasharma302]

@@karenholl2489 Have you seen these movies/dramas? If not, I highly recommend them. 1. Your Name Engraved Herein (Taiwanese) 2. I told the sunset about you (Thai) Season 2 is coming in March 2021 3. Dear Ex (Taiwanese movie- heartbreaking) These are some of the best movies/dramas I have ever watched, period.

[@verovero7135]

This thread is the best in the comment section! I wanted to add that Japanese media tends to have very stereotypical characters in general, it is encouraged and part of the production process. I think this has a lot to do with it. I love manga, but you can always recognize what role is given to a character, especially in the genres targeting teens, and often that is as far as the development will go (and to an extent I get it, because manga casts tend to be huge, and you can't go in-depth for every character. For romance stories this falls trough though).

[@vreemdear6344]

as a nonbinary person people could find a way to argue that I'm "fetishising" any romance media I read as enby/enby media simply doesn't exist. I don't think theres anything wrong with consuming media about people different to yourself, what matters is how you treat real people

[@akazienoel2009]

The problem is just that fetishizing fictional characters can still get problematic, as an example, I ve seen a lot of minors getting sexualized and more heteronormative to fit their view of gay people or fantasy, although it s still fiction, it s still really questionable

[@user-lc8lj9yh3c]

@@akazienoel2009 If it's that "problematic" then why are you still bothering yourself to engage on those topics then?

[@NkSku]

i feel really uncomfortable when women are obsessed with yaoi and gay men, it makes me feel really disgusted with myself as a gay boy myself :/

[@Itsang_ham]

I’m sorry you feel that way. I feel the same thing as a pan person, it’s gross:(

[@asshaimelisandre3218]

As a gay boy, I feel you. If you ever want to go hunt down fujoshis, count on me!

[@ibtisamabdi4951]

I read yaoi/bl bcs i enjoy it i dont obsess over irl gay men

[@janiyahl.9456]

I’m sorry that y’all actually have to feel this way. The narrative “top and bottom” is never used in mlw so why should it be used in mlm or wlw or etc. I always found it pretty stupid and as a cis women had always made me uncomfortable when reading a lgbtq+ story. I really only read lgbtq+ stories once in a while because it’s hard to find a book that isn’t fetishizing the lgbtq+ relationship or that doesnt have toxic themes. Again I’m deeply sorry that this has to happen to y’all and I apologize because when I was naive I was obsessed with those stories.

[@raccoonja5905]

"My brother's husband" is great. I feel like the story of the main character meeting up with his brothers husband and slowly loosing his subconscious prejudices could speak to many people, who don't know anything about beeing gay. The series made me realise how far behind Japan is in accepting gay relationships. I'm glad the author could write this into an optimistic story about learning from others. Manga needs more stories like this with gay characters not only beeing used in Yaoi or as "quirky feminine side character".

[@Limacinablues]

Also “I think my son is gay” it’s about an closeted gay tries to hiding is sexuality from his parents, but he always fails. Despite that, his mom knows that he is actually gay and supports him, but she keep that in secret and decides to tell him the truth when her son coming out

[@f41ry27]

i feel like it’s so weird that straight girls love mlm and watch bl dramas yet are so against wlw

[@Itsang_ham]

Ikr

[@zbadjuber]

RIGHT?

[@0rangeeige199]

fr

[@lufeng9794]

As someone who used to avoid yuri and is into yaoi, i'd say the main reason was because i'm straight and i didn't like reading the inner monologue of the women feeling pleasure during sexual activities. And the reason to why i avoided shoujo ai was because i was scared i'd relate to it and i would have this inner crisis. now tho i'm perfectly fine with reading anything gl :) i just prefer reading bl because i like guys and i think they look good

[@capo3645]

I'm a gay man and honestly I have no issues with women reading gay (male) fiction, or even consuming explicitly sexual content such a erotic manga or pornography. I actually always argue with people online that girls are perfectly fine doing this, and largely, yaoi/BL is created by women FOR women, and isn't really created for gay men anyway, and honestly, that's fine. It's just manga, it's fictional characters that don't affect real people. However, I do think that some FANS of the genre can be problematic. I myself have had to put up with girls acting creepy toward me (for example, girls I have only just met saying stuff like "that's hot" when I mention I have a male partner, or asking "so who is the top" or "who is the girl" and stuff). This is definitely something that happens and it's gross and makes me feel gross. However, realistically, this is something I've experienced from many people. It's hardly limited to hetero women who read BL lmao. And I've met many women/girls who enjoy this stuff and act like completely normal people around me, or are very supportive of gay rights etc. Honestly I think it's just a case that homophobia and creepy behaviour toward LGBT+ people is relatively common in society. I don't think it actually correlates that well to people who read BL manga as being specifically more creepy than others.

[@toxicccpie8278]

Exactly!Im a straight woman who is consuming yaoi/BL Content alot and honestly I dont read any straight stuff.But its not like that I think that Yaoi is LGBTQ and that I think in every gay couple there is the "feminine boy" who is cute and stuff and the "real man" who is like protecting and big.

[@cazbutterfly4229]

@@toxicccpie8278 You're creepy and fetishize gay men.

[@peurx2089]

For me the statement of “it’s made by women for women” may sound ok but in my opinion not really, Because it does involve a minority group and for some to use that as an “excuse” doesn’t really make sense because you still are objectifying or making something of a minority group into yours in a way? I don’t exactly know how to explain it but it just seems weird for people to say that this is made only specifically for this group of people that aren’t anything to do with the thing their making content of. Plus since it does involve a real thing that exists among actual people(gay and queer men)it just sounds rather odd to say they can’t read or make an opinion on something that pretty much does revolve around who they are. this is just me tho I don’t want to start an argument I just don’t understand that excuse especially since I a queer man can’t make an opinion on something that does revolve around what I am, that’s being used by and for a group that isn’t like me(het. women).

[@Jimmyneutron19988]

okay but same with straight man literally took word lesbian as an pornhub term to search i think we cant blame one gender for this

[@GhostsTelevision]

As an asexual female (who ig is straight idk anymore) I do read/watch bl and read fanfics, but I also have a gay friend who recently got a bf. I am very supportive of them and freaked out when they finally kissed, but I've never gone as far as asking "Who's to and who's bottom." Hell I didn't even know people did that until I read this, it's invasive and kinda disgusting.

[@jonnestyronicha497]

My thinking is kind of like this: 1) I get uncomfortable when people say they like yaoi/bl. I *don't* get uncomfortable when people say they like reading "gay stories" or "LGBTQ (romance) stories." Why is that? Well, "yaoi/bl" are terms with a lot of baggage. Among that baggage is both the historical usage for stories that fetishize gay men in grotesque ways and all the frequently sexual tropes that often get applied to it (for example, "bottom" is a sex position; sometimes bottoms are submissive in relationships but this isn't an absolute at all although the "BL genre" can convince you otherwise, and the fanbase as well gets unnecessarily obsessed over it). 2) I feel like gay romance shouldn't be considered as anything other than a subgenre of regular romance, or "gay" itself could be a genre about being gay in society, or whatever, but "gay romance" should just be considered as part of the "romance" genre, rather than being given its own name a if it's something entirely different. E.g. paranormal romance, historical romance, these are subsets of romance, and gay romance should be treated the same way. 3) If it involves rape or traditional tropes (e.g. hypermasculine tops that are basically "straight for everyone but him", "turning him gay", even just a very distinct "top" and "bottom" role in a relationship) then these need to be either condemned (in regards to rape) or deconstructed to point out the flaws in those tropes. Because plenty of people are hypermasculine and prefer to penetrate in sex, and plenty of people experience same-gender attraction to only one gender, but those facts should play into accepting one's identity, accepting that one doesn't *need* to be that way, and things like that; they shouldn't be treated as "BL tropes" and then moved away from 4) Relationships are always personal until otherwise stated. Prying questions should not be asked without an indication that it's fine to do so, and assumptions should not be made, ever, unless they're reasonable assumptions backed up by research. 5) A gay story written by a gay person can be considered as "research" as I said above. A gay story written by a straight woman probably can't be considered that. Same principle that applies to a story about black experiences written by a white person or a book about female experiences by a man.

[@Dragonking-fd1qv]

Yeah I hate those words cause it is sexualizing gay men especially with it’s past, I just read it because I like the fact that the lgbtq community is being normalized and I feel included within romance (I don’t use sexuality labels on myself but I consider myself gay as an umbrella term) but rn I’m stealing away from romance because now when I see relationships no matter what I stear towards self hatred, don’t get me wrong I support the couples a lot (as long as there’s no abuse going on) whether fiction or reality, but I start sometimes making comments to myself like “this is why you can’t be like this, and never will be, because ur so fucking disgusting, your only meant to be a supportive friend who likes memes”, those comments don’t come up to much anymore, unlike 2 years ago, but I start feeling miserable and incredibly lonely, so currently trying comedic or historical stories instead!

[@praisethelordgriffith8338]

Yaoi and yuri are outdated terms already in Japan from what I remember. They refer to it as Bl and Gl. It's just the manga piracy sites that categorize mangas as yaoi/shounen ai or yuri/shoujo ai.

[@naii1924]

@@praisethelordgriffith8338 these pirating sites literally have "shotacon" genre like wtf😭

[@okmae._.]

yeah I read Yaoi and I hate yaois that like sexualize rape. Some I read that don’t have rape or if they do, they condemn it and say it is a bad thing (which it is), are really good (eg. Sign (Ker), Banana Scandal, Sasaki to Miyano, and Your Dream is Delicious I’d say are quite good)

[@burnt.norton]

as an mlm person, it makes me pretty uncomfortable when girls set bl stuff as their profile picture or just generally obsess over it. and when i tell them that it can make us uncomfortable, they just use the excuse that female characters aren’t developed enough, therefore they read/watch mlm?? which doesn’t really make sense to me.

[@krystal_4282]

They just use that as an excuse to fetishize. They also think they’re being “woke” for fetishizing gay men.

[@pripri7307]

@@krystal_4282 PLS IK 😭😭😩👎 and they think they’re quirky once they start reading yaoi/fetishising gay men

[@ronixoxo]

@@pripri7307 wait if I have my pfp as a gay ship but it’s a matching pfp with my guy best friend and we are both part of LGBTQ+ does it still count as bad? Cause I don’t wanna fetishized gay men but we both like those characters a lot and we thought but would be a cute matching pfp 😳

[@dippledopple]

@@pripri7307 Or every friendship between guys is immediately TENSION Or they write fanfics that's sexualise male minors because ITS A GAY SHIP And even making one of their characters submissive and feminine instead of two healthy and normal guys in a relationship

[@MinieAnne]

I don't justify they action but I do find bl more interesting that sojo cause unfortunately the girl is always super dumb or something among the line even though they are also stereotype in the bl industry like usually one is more masculine and the bottom is feminine.. But at least they have more interesting character.

[@adi_3039]

A lot of people in the comments are saying not all yaoi is bad, but here’s my opinion as a gay man, I feel like yaoi has become a separate thing that isn’t just a romance between two men. When you combine the toxic community and all the stereotypes about gay men and relationships that come from yaoi, you can’t deny that it fetishizes mlm. There are many great mangas/anime with proper queer rep but to me that is not the same as yaoi/yuri, it’s simply romance.

[@nithyasreesathyanarayanan5611]

There are some shounen-ai that are actually very cute and real, they are hard to find. But many tapas comics themed with BL which explore lgbtq themes and troubles faced by them in real life.

[@_emly_]

If you're looking for more LGBTQ+ manga content that's also about the artist themselves, I discovered a short series by Kabi Nagata called "My Lesbian Experiences with Loneliness". I've only read the first one, but I remember it being about her coming to terms with her sexuality and her first sexual experience with a woman. It was a little sad in places as it also addresses her struggle with mental health, but I remember it being quite a sweet story. So, if you're looking for something a little different that's more of a manga biography type thing, I'd recommend this series! :)

[@emmanuelaadebisi5743]

As a sapphic I needed this recommendation ty

[@RayOfTruth]

The Bride Was a Boy is also another great one. Only one volume long too.

[@user-yw3ri5lk2b]

I’m a Bl consumer and to be honest, I’m ok reading any type of love story as long as it portrays a good plot line, teaches me something about life, and I can actually get an outcome of what I’ve just consumed. I feel like the preference of reading BL over straight relationships comes from this overused stereotype showed in movies, books, poetry, etc; that at some point started to sicken me. It was not until one year ago that I became more open with my reading preferences and wanna read something good just because it’s good, and not because of how good looking the characters are, or what are their sexual preferences, and other nonsense but picky categories. As said, love is love and it does not have to matter who embodies it. PD: A manga recommendation is “Old-Fashioned Cupcake” by Sagan Sagan. I love this manga and if you can, give it a try!

[@teneewebb5601]

I'm currently reading this and its great so far💖

[@henloworld514]

wow same; I think I started enjoying BL bc of the overused stereotypes

[@briar5036]

Yeah same man, is the title available on any website?

[@PreciousIvy]

omg I love this manga~!! the art is so beautiful, and their relationship is so precious~ the taller guy (I am not good with names) is such a cutie everytime he blushes~ (also do you have any recommendations for shounen ais exactly like this one?) spoiler when togawa cried over nozue discovering that he is in love with him... I haven't felt this hurt in a very long time.. legitimate wish there was infinite amount of mangas exactly like that one

[@justthetruth3950]

Thanks for the recommendation!

[@RilianeEC]

the worst is when they want to marry/have romantic relatioships with the boys from BL novels and all. Like girl they're gay 💀

[@SamuelSamuelSamuel1]

And they be gay in the straightest way possible 💀💀💀

[@kim-qx7yt]

they’re fake characters they can be anything u want them to be

[@Astro4Knowledge]

@@kim-qx7yt however the cannon is the cannon you can't change the cannon,so no.

[@Squibballs]

@@kim-qx7yt if the character is gay. they're gay. saying that you can change it is disgusting ^_^

[@joseignacioalonso9454]

It creeps me out how yaoi forces traditional gender roles into gay relationship like the “top” is super masc, big, muscled... and the “bottom “ is passive, fem, smaller, skinnier... like, it doesn’t make sense to me... it’s exactly like asking who’s the boy and who’s the girl in the relationship (a question that has soooo much more to unpack besides what I am talking about now)

[@candiedgarbage8684]

As a yaoi artist this is a very touchy subject in the community, I try my best to not glorify gay relationships. I'm not gay nor a man, but I do support the LGBTQ+ community by donating some of my prophets to help support gay men. It's sad that many of my fellow artist glorify gay relationships, and I'm not trying to prophet off of gay relationships. And yes your opinion is valid, I met some yaoi artist who just don't care and just want to draw how they fantasize what a gay relationship is like. Some of us just like drawing boys in general and hentai, I'm not ashamed about it, I do it because I enjoy it.

[@lavienrose8991]

*profit

[@Ajia_No_Envy]

What are some of your yaoi you've created?

[@PreciousIvy]

can you explain to me what does "glorifying" mean? I'm like you, I wanna be a creator who creates only gay stories/art, and I happen not to be a gay man. and that's mainly because I don't like consuming het and lesbian relationships. so would that be considered glorifying to you?

[@Sashakawaiicat]

I think there's an important conversation to be had about the genre of yaoi and its more common popular tropes, but let's be clear, it is absolutely OK for anyone to read, write or create fiction about m/m. BL in general, on the surface is just fiction that focuses on the relationships between m/m, whether it's sexually explicit or simply romantic and there are many reasons why people might enjoy it. The problems are the fricking problematic tropes that are so common in yaoi, and how the fandom take those tropes an problematic depictions of gay men in some BL and place that on actually gay men in real life.

[@yuukokagami]

Anyone who gets upset at people fetishizing homosexual lesbian couples NEEDS to remember the same thing happens to men as well who are in a homosexual relationship, ESPECIALLY when it comes to yaoi. The double standard is frustrating... :(

[@user-sx6tg2kd9r]

I feel so fricking cringe when someone saw two men/women holding hands and then saying "Guess who the seme/uke is."

[@marsheilajonathan3833]

and i hate how the "bottom" would basically look like a girl and the "top" would be that mascular man who is like 100x times bigger than the bottom. like- just write straight couple if you want to make them look like that.

[@solin3180]

and you see how there is barely any switches in yaoi 😭 as if they don’t exist. people who write yaoi make it seem everything is strictly top/strictly bottom.

[@naii1924]

Personally, I really like kanna kiis mangas It portraits realistic mlm relationships I have alot other healthy queer romance manhwa to reccomend aswell but that'd be extremely longg

[@naii1924]

(Btw kanna kii is the author of the anime umibe no etranger incase u didnt know

[@iknowthatyouregayfireflies9992]

This!!! I swear.. I personally like it when the bottom is bigger at times because I myself am interested in the experience of bottoming, but I'm also a big guy. Not necessarily super tall (I mean, I am considerably tall, I am almost the height of my door), but my build is very big. So like, I guess it makes me feel more comfortable with my body and that I don't have to think about being skinnier just to be perfect.

[@user-qr8co6hp4r]

As a bi girl who loves Yaoi/ Yuri I can say it does get overly fetishized by fans especially who would go far to sexualize real life people in the same gender. I personally don’t read much unless the plot and genre is genuine to my preference, as I hate to see many that overuse non-con sex more to sexualize over contributing to the plot and have characters that act the same and can be replaceable...

[@joelbedulla4]

You should see the fujoshis that ship One Direction or BTS members with one another. Toxic af.

[@user-qr8co6hp4r]

@@joelbedulla4 I’ll never understand why they ship real people anyways 😐

[@user-qr8co6hp4r]

@:ミヤン ikr it’s sickening and especially when it’s targeted to minors also.

[@pleasedontlookforme8036]

I feel exactly the same.

[@ElizaRuth]

i consume a lot of queer content, and while i am a lesbian, i find myself gravitating more towards BL, and i always wondered why i did that if i had no inherent attraction to men. i realized about a year ago that because there are NO female characters in the media i consume, then women can't be objectified. it's a lot easier to exclude myself from the narrative if i don't have a character that is female, or a character that is a lesbian. in other words, it's easier for me to read or watch content about two men because there is no distraction from the storyline. where as, if a woman/queer woman was present, i feel like i would always be nervous about the ways that the character might be treated. another reason why i gravitate towards this media is because there is not a lot of fem queer content that i have come across that i find 100% palatable, and i'm tired of seeing the same straight storylines over and over again, or being queer-baited into watching a series and then getting 0 representation, so with BL, i don't have to worry about any of the above issues

[@lilmuffin9253]

In BL, even when there are female characters they're very one dimensional and usually act as a canon fodder. Weird considering most of these BL comics are written by women

[@Oqhixiism]

@@agnesh.1155 I can't kinda relate to you! I am a lesbian as well! I love to read love story's but when it came to Gl I found the story plot boring, which causes me to question my sexuality, or if I do find an interesting Gl it's toxic, or I feel like my relationship with a girl in the future is gonna be this boring. I found bl and I enjoyed the story line! I read a little bit of yaoi but for me it was personally awkward, but some of them had some good story plots! I did come across some Yuri but for some reason there was like no romance and all about s e x which lost my interest right away.

[@emily-iw3jx]

i find it so hard to find good gl content and often relate to the characters of bl stories that i read, the chemistry between characters is superior to hetero stories that have been written to the grave so i find it fresh and appealing to see more queer media

[@mochibunnyan6556]

The term yaoi literally means “no plot”, so I personally like to classify stories that focus on relationships between two men as such: Yaoi: PwP/pron without plots, mostly focuses on pron, usually not really meant to represent actual gay relationships, basically the gay version of het porn manga’s. They CAN have plots, but usually it focuses more on the sex aspect BL: more focused on plot, might have some sex scenes but it isn’t the main point of the work, may or may not represent realistic relationships but focuses romance and feelings, more story/plot-heavy (examples; MDZS, Go for it Nakamura, Quickly Wear the Face of the Devil) These are just my personal distinctions though, and of course not all mlm content fits neatly into either category, and not all content with mlm couples are focused on their romance (like Viktuuri in YOI) but they help me organise the content I consume Also, I dont think yaoi is inherently wrong (after all there’s a lot of het media focused on sex that display obviously unrealistic relationships), it’s just that there’s too much of it that most people’s first impressions of asian mlm content is sex, and many people assume that yaoi is about romance when really its about sex. Its like calling 50 Shades of Gray a love story when really it’s about porn not love

[@ayo3181]

Straight girls that write soft stories of gay couples being "uwu and cute" infantilizes the gay experience. As a gay dude it's very VERY uncomfortable for me to see tons of straight girls create edits of irl gay couples. Some straight girls sorta view gay people as little cute toys to as aww over like puppies at a pet store.

[@IAMASELENATOR92]

I'm gay and I'm not upset at people reading or making yaoi. Tbh, a lot of what is categorized as "fetishization" is NOT fetishization.

[@looc_96]

I think a lot of the issues stem from yoai/bl being targeted specifically towards straight women. Like how lesbian p--n is targeted at straight men. They're not making things for the LGBT community to consume to find good representations. Especially when people already think people in the community are overly s--ual, hence why companies are reluctant/refuse to include LGBT characters in children's media

[@grff_]

As an lgbt person what im most uncomfortable about is the words like "yaoi" "BL" because if i read a good story with lgbt characters I will call it lgbt. I don't know your sexuality/gender, but i also feel extremely uncomfortable when straight women read BL and talk about it like is the pinnacle of romance bc,,, it feels very ferishizing, same with straight men obsessed with lesbians. However, I have no issue with you reading lgbt content as i know you're very diverse with your reads and you actively try to read from lgbt writers, just please do your research on what the stories are about. Nowadays you can definitely find more yaoi and yuri that is still labeled as such but is not fetishy(?) Bottom line is i am ok with lgbt people reading lgbt media, problematic or not, but i do wish they supported proper stories FOR lgbt folks and not for straight people to drool over and I'm very uncomfortable with cis het people consuming problematic lgbt media but i do think they should read more lgbt media (and when i say lgbt i mean ALL the letters in the acronym)

[@rayewb6507]

@ PossiblyViv/ Totally agree, I’ll start reading something, giving it the benefit of the doubt and then it’ll “365 dni” me. I really wish manga artists, authors, and script writers would stop promoting toxic relationships. I know that wasn’t exactly what you were talking about but it made me think of that.

[@jaydenkhai3480]

its not fetishization,

[@mariefurukawa2627]

Understandable, but you also have to realise these words are imported directly from Japan where LGBT wasn't used until recently.

[@justthetruth3950]

As a bi girl I'm fine with the term GL, it's just Girls Love, I don't think that's fe/ti/shi/zed

[@charat9550]

I feel like the whole tags of "fujoshi" thing has kinda screwed it over, like how all the japanese terms had give a bad vibe to the thing

[@tati3861]

hey queen! girl, you've done it again. constantly raising the bar for us all and doing it flawlessly.

[@marshy_5406]

As an Asian person, bl / yaoi gave me a lot of Asian gay representation instead of general gay representation. A lot of culture between western gay culture and Asian gay culture is different and most western media doesn’t portray a lot of cultural differences in how gay culture in the Asian community. There are definitely a lot of different authors and some don’t portray the healthiest of relationships which is definitely not good but in general there are a lot of good ones and are probably the only source of lgbt representation in Asia.

[@duolingoowo4855]

The main thing that bothers me about yaoi/bl is that it's about mlm but it's made by women for women. I've always had a problem with media that's about gay people but made by straight people for straight people because they feel inauthentic and act as if gay people only exist for the entertainment/enjoyment of straight people.

[@joannaerhardt7294]

I'm so sorry you have gone through this. I'm a Latina and have experienced this too. It's so gross 🤢! Girl, you are entitled to read whatever you want to read! That's why there's so much variety! So we can CHOOSE for OURSELVES what we enjoy to read. I like sci-fi and children's classics and I read them over and over again. Since watching your videos, it has exposed me to learning more about horror, manga and watching anime (I cried so much watching A Silent Voice 😭!). I guess what I'm trying to say is, you do you! This channel is about your literary interests and there is nothing wrong with that! You can't read something you're not passionate about and interests change with time. Art is always changing and reading is an art because it takes imagination. No one has the right to dictate what you should read or not. KZbin is vast and I'm sure they can find other channels for those other genres. You are not their personal book critic. Take care and know you are awesome!!!😁👍💗💗

[@DebrisDiver]

Gay dude here! 🙋🏽‍♂️And I recently started reading BL. First, that was a wholesome and sensible video; I was blown-away: you're amazing! Secondly, I have long held prejudice about the BL genre myself, because yes, at its roots and like you so well defined it, it is a fetishisation of gay relationships as a vehicle for female readers to safely project their own sexual desires beyond Japanese society's restriction. It's heavy, yeah. But the genre has also evolved with 'societies'. Just like the acceptance of diversity of all kind, of genre, and sexual preferences, has made its way through the minds. It's still a work in progress, both in global and Japanese society, but also in the BL genre as a now 'international' medium considering its impact on the audiovisual and literary landscape over all of Asia. Like you so explained so well, this fetishism is slowly fading, becoming its own subgenre in the BL genre. And what may have been true at its origins in Japan with doujinshi circles decades ago is not true anymore. In terms of clear examples to illustrate this, I think about two titles adapted by the young 'BL Animated feature' studio 'Blue Lynx' in Japan, and the titles they adapted recently: Given and Umi no Etranger. I got swooned by the latter, and whilst being written by a female BL manga author, I have found a sensible story I could relate to as a dude who likes dudes, and an sincere acknowledgment of the troubles of being who I am in a heteronormative society that makes me feel isolated everyday, and pushed aside and bound to become an angry hermit living by the shore. Now for clear comparison, I wish to mention the group of creator CLAMP. They have always been recognised as flag-bearer of BL, from their origins as doujinshi creators, to the numerous implicit recognised queer characters in their massive collection of works. However, as much as I admire them as mangaka, they have in my humble opinion, remained stuck in the past, and failed to evolved with societies and the crushing of normative walls in their portrayal of us, queer people. It only takes a look at Yukito and Touya, or Tomoyo from 'CardCaptor Sakura', and compare them to the richly fleshed gay+queer main characters or happy lesbian/secondary characters of Umi no Etranger from KII Kanna to see the gap, and how 'dated' CLAMP's portrayal of queer individuals feels today still in their most recent works. CLAMP is stuck into that forbidden secretive fujoshi fantasy, unable to educate themselves and consider gay men beyond their characters, and their impact on society. And this feels wrong to me. Anyone who expresses an idea to others, and creators and artists ever more, should always feel accountable to the people they write for / and about. That's my opinion as an archaeologist and aspiring filmmaker. This gap between some BL authors and others is more visible when there are artists like KII Kanna, or SAWA Sakura author of a few Edo period BL series like 'Momo to Manji', willing to actually reflect onto their work, and what it means for men who actually like men in the real world, outside of fantasy, and have to face a world where people still die because the law somewhere or religions, decided that there is something wrong and forbidden about us, well, being us. I'll just leave this article from ANN about a conference with BL artists (SAWA Sakura included), allegedly about the impact of lgbtq awareness: www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2019-05-26/boys-love-authors-discuss-the-impact-of-lgbt-awareness-on-bl/.146936 I am also a demisexual individual. I do not enjoy unnecessary intimate relationships being thrown to my face in pages or a screen if they do not nurture the relationship of the characters in meaningful ways. And yet, sexual or not, I have recently started to consume BL from Japan, Korea, and China, over different medium adaptively, as each countries have walked that path of understanding of being true to romance no matter the sexual identity and genre (yeah, I'm looking at you China and your continuous televised straightwashing). Also, talking about Manhwa, I actually wanna make a video essay about Korea and Joseon period-set BL, it's fascinating. I started consuming BL as a response for growing weary of seeing straight romance everywhere in our society; in every movie, every tv program, every ad, every norm, but struggling to find media where I could find characters I actually related to. That's what made me want to be a filmmaker as well. Anyways, we are living a transitory time right now for the liberation of lgbtq representation, and despite its problematic roots, the BL genre is slowly and surely becoming a precious ally for queer representation in the media. There's still a long way to go, and we lack the distance to see the long miles walked so far already, only because we're still on that road, but it's with readers like you, or I, being critical about it, that change will come for the better. That's a hella long comment you'll probably never read. But thank you for your video. It felt good to watch it. Cheers

[@mikelangelo66]

hey bro, i just wanted to say that i read your comment and it made me very happy and optimistic for the future of yaoi/lgbtq+ representation generally, so thank you and have a good day/night/whatever :>

[@Evannd97]

As a gay man, I'm just happy to have some sort of representation, and something I can read and relate to. For so long, I've had to just headcannon things (and I still do to an extent) but I don't see a problem with yaoi or bl. If that's written or enjoyed by straight cis women, I could really care less. I'm like a cusp Gen Z, and the whole acceptance of the gay community came on *very* rapidly, it was almost like overnight. I graduated high school in 2016, (one year after gay marriage was legalized) and in just like that year I started to see the rapid acceptance of progressive attitudes towards gay people. I say this because although it's important to criticize the fetishization aspect of bl and yaoi, the fact that this is even a phenomenon perpetuated mainly by straight people is wild considering I probably would have gotten punched in the face if I kissed a boy publically in high school. In short, I much prefer the discourse that is happening now over gay men than like, getting hatecrimed or never growing up seeing *any* representation.

[@WL2R]

I’m gay and I don’t reallly care. Like what you like and don’t be ashamed of it.

[@bababooey2436]

As a straight person, I watch read BL/Yaoi, one of the reason, of course, is for entertainment while also learning something. I love how they question themselves, how they faced hardships and how the story shows them accepting the fact they are gay, that they are still the same person everyone knows of and seeing them progress from an insecure or "ashamed of themselves for being gay" to a confident person, make me happy. It just shows that everyone has their struggles and makes me understand what gay people have been through. I am also not into those inappropriate yaoi type of anime, like r**e? Or slavery? Cause no. Also, I am the type of person who would never force others to read/watch yaoi, if they want then so be it. I won't force them. I don't just go around saying, "I am a Fujoshi!" or "Go watch Yaoi" cause hell nah! I am the closet fujoshi, no one knows that I love yaoi/bl and I like to remain it that way. I hope what I say if not offensive, English is not my first language so I might have some vocabulary problems (?).

[@matchasketch8224]

You were not offensive at all! As a lesbian, I read BL stories for the same reason. I like how (some, but not all) BL deals with the problems of figuring out your identity and navigating social life as a gay person (at least more often than GL/yuri does). I like seeing a character accept their identity and gain confidence by the end of the story. However, I don’t like how a lot of BL is highly unrealistic, with either “straight” characters “turning gay” for one person or a person who expresses that they are “sinning” bc of being in a same-sex relationship bc I think that reinforces a lot of misconceptions about lgbtq identities and fetishizes m|m (and w|w by extension) relationships rather than normalizing it. I understand everyone’s experience of gender and sexuality is unique but BL is often not very nuanced and the same tropes are repeated over and over again for entertainment purposes

[@jinae7019]

@@matchasketch8224 I just don't see how reading problematic or unrealistic stuff, BL or otherwise, is harmful if the reader can make a clear distinction between fiction and reality and does not apply any possibly harmful ideas to real life. I find it strange that consumption of mlm is heavily criticized and BL works are expected to always be accurate, wholesome portrayals of LGBTQ experiences when that is a double standard that is often not applied to straight romances.

[@samiraansari5686]

@@jinae7019 I think the difference is that straight romance is usually written by straight people for straight people, while many (although obviously not all) BL/yaoi works are written by straight women and the target audience are also straight women- and that is where the „fetishizing“ aspect comes in. There is a difference between portraying a relationship that has problems, and specifically following certain tropes for the entertainment of a straight audience that then get to fetishize their own sexual fantasies about gay men, while actually gay men are still heavily stigmatized and face many hardships in Japanese society. That is not to say that all BL works are bad or that nobody should read them- it‘s fine to enjoy certain tropes, but it is also important to be critical when reading them.

[@mmddmm6170]

i can relate i really dont like those rape or slavery shit like how does that turn on people. yall weirdos

[@TeresVlogs]

​@@mmddmm6170 This happens in every genre actually. And it is all disturbing indeed. People fetishize everything. It isn't just in the "yaoi" genre. The last drop for me was a website where men fetishize anorexia. The slavery, rape and torture content is there too. It just means that humans can make everything revolting. Sad...

[@funfuz]

Absolutely horrid that people tell you such terribly violent things in general, and specifically because they don't agree with what you're reading. Some people really need to be reminded that they aren't saying these things in a vacuum, but that they are saying this stuff to an actual human being.

[@wolfgangrivas6096]

This is the reason I stopped reading Yaoi (original intent of the genre) and started reading specifically BL. I have never felt fetishised by yaoi personally (maybe because I'm asexual), but I stopped reading it because all the stories felt like the same toxic thing on different levels, always focused on sex, it just felt wrong to read. On the other hand, Bl was a blessing because it really depicts how two men fall in love (in a fictional context) and takes time to develop a good story line.

[@isaacevilman7586]

Well, I’m Japan, “shounen-ai” has a different sort of implication attached. If you were to say “shounen-ai” to a Japanese person, they would think of young boys, not mlm.

[@wolfgangrivas6096]

@@isaacevilman7586 oh my bad, should have said just no, let me fix it

[@justthetruth3950]

Also BL is a lot more diversified

[@fanfiction8853]

I'm asexual too[and aromantic] so I can definitely relate to you, more than the other comments

[@froggiebeans6928]

i'm mlm, and here are my takes on the subject: - while i don't have a problem with straight people consuming lgbtq+ media, i do get uncomfortable and freaked out when a straight girl says they read yaoi or even bl, partially because of my own bad experiences with those types of people, but also because of the connotations associated with those terms. - some things i think are important to ask those people are: would they react the same way if it was wlw and not mlm? do they treat the characters the same way that they would if said characters were straight? do they read/watch it because they like romance and/or because they like seeing representation, or do they like it specifically because they find two men in a relationship attractive? - i think that if it's marketed specifically to women and girls then that's a bad sign, because i think if it's made ABOUT gay men but not FOR them then it's probably made to be fetishized and objectified. gay people don't just exist as entertainment for straight people to enjoy. - i honestly don't think it should be treated any differently than straight romance, because if it's main selling point is the fact that "omg look it's soft gay boyz uwu" then it's not doing anything to normalize lgbtq+ relationships. unless it's made for lgbtq+ people and with the intention of like, actually normalizing it, it's doing nothing. we just want to be treated normally. - obviously all the stuff with the stereotypes and associating them to real people, i'm kinda tired of typing tho

[@lufeng9794]

hello i'm a straight women who has read a ton of bl. i think these questions are interesting so i'd like to give them a try. i will try to answer them as honestly as i can - it depends on what i'm reacting to. if it was sexual activity, i would react very differently because i'm not really into the inner monologues of women feeling pleasure during sexual activities. As for guys i'm also not really into it but i do think they look hot. If it was a shounen-ai /shoujo-ai, they are cute if they are cute, and they make me swoon when they make me swoon. Most of this happens towards men characs and some because of women characs. It happens more towards men because i like them. -mmm this is a harder question. Yes i would treat them the same. If the gay charac turned into straight will still act the way they do towards their love interest then i'd still really like them. Example of this is, if Hikaru Kusakabe from doukyusei would still be his awkward and silly self towards a girl or if Mabuchi Kou were to act the same towards a guy, then it doesn't really matter :) -i read/watch it because i like guys. I like the expression they make when they're in love, when they feel good and when they gradually start to recognize their feelings. It's kind of the media for me where i can get 2 things at once. One being the body worship without the female mc and two being 2x of everything. I don't really think about the representation while reading/watching the media, it's sort of just what's happening is happening and they make me swoon. i don't like it specifically because i find two men in a relationship hot, i like it because i find two hot men in the relationship. (attractive, cute, special, good personality, call it whatever >.

[@victorysampson]

YOUR HAAIIIIRR ITS SO PRETTYY OMG!

[@gravelandtoo]

Just wanted to say that I think you are probably one of the most diversely read booktubers out there and not only that, you are also always trying to expand your reading horizons which is a wonderful thing to do! I’m not sure what those people who say you need to read more diversely are talking about bc as I’ve said, you’ve got such a wide range of culture that you read from and you’re always finding more!

[@Kiki-reads]

I love this channel so much. I found it right when I was hitting a plateau in my reading diversely endeavors and it has really opened my eyes to many exciting books.

[@gravelandtoo]

definitely! my reading has totally diversified recently and now i’m doing a translated fiction challenge to read literature from six different countries around the world which i never would have done if it weren’t for this channel!

[@phoenixdaniels212]

as a gay man i used to read a lot of yaoi growing up starting at about age ten and because i saw mostly all the bad ones it did lead to me getting involved in a lot of toxic relationships and involving myself with much older boys as i saw no problem with it. it also contributed to my internalized homophobia so yes there is a fuck ton of it that is fetishization and its creepy and involves childeren or abuse their are some that are just wholesome. for example (though this is a graphic novel and not manga) Heartstopper by Alice Oseman has good rep and diverse characters with cute stories (book four comes out soon though you can read he series online) so if youre just looking for a cute sfw mlm comic series i would highly reccomend it.

[@charlieparker5346]

This is a huge problem in fan communities, too. Especially when it comes to cramming gay men into heteronormative relationship roles and desires. I brought up to some friends a while back that I'd never seen the character who's usually the "top" in a pairing we all enjoy admire his "bottom's" abs unless their roles were reversed and they were like "Damn....never thought of that..."

[@cometreviews]

In my experience, it's been really hard to find yaoi/bl to recommend (mostly because of unchecked sexism/homophobia/sexual assault. Lol, reviews on my channel just prove my point). I would suggest looking on... more "fan-based" sites to search for BL/GL in tandem with the LGBTQ+ tag. And then you can see what's licensed in a way you can buy. That tends to lead to better results as far as I've seen. Here are 10 recs: Yaoi/BL recommendations: 1. Yuuri on Ice (obvs, lol) (anime). It might be a little queerbaity but I think if you want a story that isn't just about the character's sexuality, there you have it 2. Doukyuusei (also obvs) (only the animated movie): highschool drama romance 3. Given (animated series only): music and drama 4. Pinky Swear with a Stray Cat by Aki Takatsu: super wholesome (single-volume manga) 5. Feeding Lamb by Mado Fuchiya/Nishin Masumi/Madobuchiya: (super gory and explicit) thriller/horror one-shot manga 6. Coyote by (Ranmaru) Zariya: urban fantasy with some explicit scenes 2 volume manga 7. Saezuru by Yoneda Kou (manga and animated movies): crime drama (super explicit) GL/Yuri recommendations: 1. Aoi Hana by Takako Shimura: great high school drama (also has an anime) 2. Futari Escape by Taguchi Shouchi: Slice of life 3.... ugh... I don't read enough to know more sorry! In case you're interested, there's also Smells Like Green Spirit by Nagai Saburou which has at least 1 trans character. It still has some tropey stuff but it's better than most, I think. Sorry for the super long comment!

[@johnross5098]

Read bara yaoi, its mostly written by gay men, for gay men. Even tho a lot of it is also problematic

[@mayapolpin8794]

Given and doukyuusei have mangas btw :)

[@veiiyan]

if you're interested in reading comics, you should try reading shounen ai (mlm) or shoujo ai (wlw) it's filled with fluffs (｡’▽’｡)♡ one of the best one in my opinion is salad days (shounen ai) it's a cute story about a rich boxer and a dancer from a village ^^

[@pekoteko8689]

@@veiiyan please dont use shoujo ai ;; that actually refers to lolicon shit and isn't the same thing as shounen ai if you need to just use GL or just yuri because its a lot different than the connotation of yaoi

[@cindynguyen5680]

a gl anime i would 100% recommend is Bloom into You! Its a really good anime.

[@PSYCHOreader624]

I have some across the same issue with "yaoi" manga and my best recommendation is to do what you are doing now - doing as much research as you can on the author or the series. One manga series that focuses on LGBTQIA issues without fetishizing gay men is Our Dream at Dusk by Shimanami Tasogare, who is a nonbinary mangaka. Also loving your hair and putfit/makeup!!

[@islanddryad]

I used to read BL and Yaoi and one day my friends were talking about a yaoi manga they both read and the way they described the men made me uncomfortable to the point of feeling disgusted. I know they were more focused on imaging themselves in that... sexual encounter rather than fetishizing the men specifically but it was enough to throw me off of BL and yaoi all together. I still have LGBTQ+ OCs because inclusivity is important to me, I just avoid explicit content and make sure that the sexuality of the characters isn’t just flavor text or sexualizing and that goes double for the content I consume

[@stef9656]

Oh wow o-O

[@urmomlol1557]

as a gay guy, i think of straight women reading yaoi the same way i think of straight men who watch lesbian adult videos. it doesn't sit right with me tbh.

[@laurenmungaray3912]

Gay people read bl/gl too. Are they fetishizing their sexuality? As long as they don't disrespect gay people in real life they can watch and read whatever they want.

[@urmomlol1557]

@@laurenmungaray3912 Lauren listen to the gay men

[@SamuelSamuelSamuel1]

@@urmomlol1557 WHY IS YOUR REPLY SO FUNNY 💀💀💀

[@Squibballs]

@@laurenmungaray3912 we can't fetishize ourselves?? are you honestly that stupid?

[@tuna5379]

thanks for this mature and insightful video abt this issue, i feel like it doesn't get talked about enough! oftentimes this kind of media is the only visible lgbt content asians grow up with (myself included) and i know many lgbt people who have benefited from reading stories about non-het relationships. there are just some things that asian lgbt ppl experience that would never be represented in western media! its nice to see someone understand that its not all just r*pe fetish sex and that there are legitimate stories being told :-) as for recs, if you like wholesome stories i think you'd enjoy i hear the sunspot and our dreams at dusk. both made me cry quite a bit but in the best ways-- they've got happy endings i promise!

[@EmeraldB94]

Thank you for making a video about this! I've felt personally torn about my enjoyment of this genre for a while, and it's comforting to know that said dilemma is a valid one, especially considering the general ambiguity and all of the external factors adding to it. Also, regarding the "you aren't reading diversely enough" comments: you are only one person who can only read so much at one time! There is so much out there, plus you (like all readers) have their own interests and boundaries that determine what literature they choose to read, and you have a right to make such choices, even as a "Booktuber" ❤️

[@quiondasjj9293]

Accidentally didnt plug in my headphones and got a lot of weird looks in my bus when people heard "Today I'm gonna be talking about yaoi".

[@Itsang_ham]

Lmfao I’m dying 💀

[@hangfire5944]

noooooooo 💀

[@frenzee_4762]

i don't have beef with people who enjoys bl relationships but one of my classmate started to think that it was okay to ship real people, from their bestfriend to their seat mate shouting "shippp" or "yiee". That same guy also clearly told her to stop since the relationship between him and his bestfriend is starting to go off because he was straight and the other guy has a girlfriend. The girl just told him that he was overreacting and that the other boy was just being a tsundere. I swear to god lmfao. Ps: btw another fujoshi that i encountered told me that i'm homophobic bcuz i told her that sangwoo x yoonbum's(from killing stalking manhwa) relationship was problematic asf and shouldn't be supported on. Like bruh i'm literally omnisexual. 🗿

[@beverlyshields2399]

This will be coming from a trans woman, but my experience with yaoi has been overall fairly positive. In my early teens it was the driving factor in understanding my attraction to men, and while the representation wasn't exactly great, it was representation at a time when there was almost nothing in western media. In middle/highschool was the gay friend to the gaggle of yaoi girls at a time when making any sort of friends was really hard for me(Autistic). And though that group has fallen apart over the years I did keep in contact with most of them in some form or another, and I began to notice an odd trend. Out of the 15+ people who made up our friend group at the time I kept up with 12 of them, and at time of writing, 7 of them are now trans men and 3 of them are nonbinary. Now I am not saying that all trans men went through a yaoi phase or that all fujoshi are actually trans men but, given what they've said to me, it seems like it gave them an outlet. Somewhere they could imagine themselves as who they truly are. And while obviously more and better mlm representation is fantastic, I feel its important to note that when looking back on all the worst of yaoi people should also consider the good that's come of it.

[@rebeccariley6273]

Read what you love and please don't get shot

[@laurenfrat]

My opinion: both bl and gl are romances, just because you read them doesn't mean you fetishize them. You can read both because they are romances, as long as you aren't fetishizing the relationship/projecting it onto lgtbq+ couples or being homophobic there shouldn't be a problem :)

[@lyddie465]

I loved Our Dreams at Dusk, which is written by a non-binary Japanese managaka with lots of representation. I think as long as you are conscious of the tropes in manga, and how those tropes could be harmful, you have every right to read whatever you like. You always celebrate diverse books, lesser-known classics and things you are passionate about. You shouldn't be criticised for that. Love this video, thank you.

[@Limacinablues]

That manga is way too underrated and overshadowed by crappy Yaoi/BL mangas who isn’t good

[@strawberrysiya6776]

I especially hate it when they try and make a GAY couple heteronormative just to make hetero ppl feel comfortable while reading it. like honestly?? What do you expect when you pick up a book with a MAN and a MAN??

[@jxomxo]

Being a bisexual man, I don't really mind yaoi that much, as long as it's in proper taste. I do want to say I smiled from ear to ear when you mentioned Gengoroh Tagame; I love his work and personally find a lot of catharsis in his stories, and I'm glad My Brother's Husband is reaching as many people as it is. Bara, for as niche as it is, really has a lot of potential to be widely renowned.

[@mingming2339]

Women be assuming every gay men reads yaoi just because they're gay

[@slowdiveshinji]

hi!! gay man here! i just want to recommend some books with wonderful representation for gay men!! Bloom by Kevin Panetta, No. 6 by Atsuko Asano, Maurice by E.M. Forster, Banana Fish by Akimi Yoshida, and Go For It, Nakamura by Syundei!!

[@NinjaWieldingLimes]

I'm going to start this comment off by saying that I don't think you shouldn't read yaoi or BL. I think you should absolutely read whatever strikes your fancy. Plus, you already know how to think about books critically. You're literally a book reviewer, and you're good at it. The fact that someone who watches your videos didn't take that into account when commenting really says more about them than it does about you. That said: Maybe it's just the weeby social circles I'm part of, but I've never seen yaoi and BL used interchangeably before. We always used heavy distinctions between the two. Yaoi is focused on the sex, whereas BL is focused on the romance. IIRC, the local comics stores were also pretty good at separating the two. I wonder if that's a North America-specific thing? Maybe even Canada-specific?? I also don't think it's always wise to go with the publishing industry terms as default. As a librarian, my day-to-day life is heavily affected by publisher's terminology, and it's made my job INCREDIBLY hard. If I were to follow publisher's terminology all the time, my library's copy of The Water Dancer by Ta-Nehisi Coates would be in general fiction. But I know that's wrong on a couple levels. For one, I would be chewed out on a regular basis by my patrons if I put it in general, because how dare I put magic in someone's "literary" fic. For another... like... there's magic in there?! How is that NOT fantasy????? Black authors' works are so often relegated to general fiction or "literary" when their works don't belong there, I think because being a Black author/reading books by Black authors is seen as being "artsy" or a "novelty." I think this is similar to publishers shoving all gay manga into the yaoi category when a solid chunk of titles don't belong there at all. At work, there are a couple of BL titles that I'd be fine with middle schoolers borrowing. I would NEVER let anyone under 18 take out a yaoi title. But with publishers conflating the two, it's made it harder for me to order comics for the queer kiddos who just want to see themselves in media. I dunno. This is a complicated subject. I have some feelings on the matter, and have a tendency to get really picky about terminology. If you're looking for a different perspective from mine, Masaki C. Matsumoto - Queer ESL - on KZbin has a video about his opinions on yaoi and BL. (The video is a couple years old, and his opinions might have changed since then.) For other non-fetishising gay manga titles, the two that I always recommend are My Brother's Husband, which you've already covered, and Our Dreams at Dusk: Shimanami Tasogare by Yukhi Kamatani. Our Dreams at Dusk covers a few more queer identities than My Brother's Husband, and similarly focuses more on the struggles queer folks face in modern Japanese society, and isn't so much about romance (though I've only read the first volume so far, so that may change.) From what I can tell, the author of Our Dreams at Dusk is X-gender and asexual, using they/them pronouns in English.

[@PaoPhenomenon]

im a closeted genderfluid and reading yaoi is kinds like a coping mechanism, its okay if you like reading yaoi but you need to know to separate fiction to reality and don't ship people irl and say of its an uke or a seme, people need to control themselves

[@fiorella.9927]

Let's not forget that Asian mlm and non-Asian mlm have a really different experience on this matter. Many of my Asian mlm friends are deeply uncomfortable with fujoshis/people who are not mlm/nblm reading yaoi(NOT SHOUNEN-AI).

[@annapirkovskaia]

Personally, I started to read yaoi and yuri, because when puberty hit and I wanted to know more about relationships, intimacy, etc, It was very difficult for me to find some good and respectful heterosexual manga/fanfiction. A lot of times there were descriptions of a literal rape which made me feel sick and I didn't want to have something like that. I know that there are a lot of titles in yaoi genre that are problematic too, but I don't read them. And also I discovered about an actual concent, safe words and more things just cause of yaoi/yuri, it really helped me to know what I like or don't like and also I wasn't shipping every guy I saw with his best friend.

[@yellowmellow2033]

AHHH FINALLY THE DISCUSSION I'VE BEEN SEARCHING FOR

[@red4921]

I wish BL and GL wasn't a genre on its own it should just fall under romance because it is just romance.

[@nithyasreesathyanarayanan5611]

If only most straight people accept that! I want it to happen too so that all people are respected!

[@bananamilk.__.4344]

same:'')

[@Itsang_ham]

Same thing, I just want it to see it as normal in romantic anime/manga.

[@charlie2.048]

Great video. Something that annoys me is that a lot of the people I have seen accusing others of fetishizing gay men are (usually cis) girls. And they do it w/o actually looking at the media in question or who they are talking to. I commented a while back on a webcomic I love that I thought that two (male) characters who were very flirty with each other would be a cute couple. A girl jumped on my comment and started ranting about how I was "fetishizing gay men" and just wanted everything to be gay "for no reason." I am a bisexual man(/masc nonbinary person). I read mlm comics to see representation of MYSELF. I have no problem with women liking mlm fiction. *The problem comes when people start treating gay and bisexual men as OBJECTS rather than as complex characters and PEOPLE.*

[@BoredBookworm]

"I know it's fiction so it doesn't affect me" yeah no that's bs. I remember having some friends growing up that really fetishized gay relationships, not seeing it as something that exists in real life but as entertainment. Their actions went past just reading/watching yaoi, they would fangirl over irl gay men being together and project the fantasies they have from yaoi onto them. Being pushed by them to read yaoi turned me off from reading pretty much any mlm stories as so many of them included abuse and manipulation of some sort. I can still to this day remember some of the excuses they would make over why it's actually romantic and not abusive/manipulative/unhealthy. A few years ago some different friends and I ran into a gay man while waiting for a train home from a convention. The man, having gone to the same convention, shared that he had been trying to find some yaoi but could only find stuff that was pornographic while he wanted something that focused on the relationship. While my friends were able to point him in the direction of some love stories they knew, it's shows how much people fetishize gay men that the majority that was available was porn. People can make all the excuses in the world but the fact that a gay man has such a hard time finding a story about gay men outside of porn shows how much the fetishization of gay man in yaoi HAS affected people. As a child my first exposure to het relationships were all healthy or healthy looking so even tho I've def seen unhealthy het relationships portrayed in the media I consume because my first impression wasnt bad I can keep going until I find a healthy one I like. With mlm stories tho, my first exposure were awful stories of men taking advantage of other men but it's okay cuz he liked it in the end and fell in love for some reason! It was horrifying to read and tainted all mlm stories from then on as I would constantly be reminded of the first stories I read. I really wish there was a better way at distinguishing the fetishising/abusive stories vs the ones that show an actual healthy relationship. If there was maybe I could have avoided those stories. I've been told about some really good non erotic, non abusive yaoi over the years that I really want to read but it can be hard at times. I was able to read and enjoy a mlm novel semi recently so hopefully I'll be able to move on and enjoy mlm manga one day too. I'm glad that at the very least I wasn't exposed to any abusive yuri stories as I am a bisexual woman and I would hate to have been robbed from being able to enjoy wlw stories

[@jinae7019]

Your experience with BL is not reflective of everyone else's experiences though... there are people who are able to maintain a strong separation between fiction and reality. I read tons of hardcore smut and stories about toxic relationships, including plenty of 'harmful" tropes... do I want any of that for myself or project such tropes onto real people? Lol no, I'm aroace and real people romances don't interest me at all.

[@scilla359]

I appreciate your honesty and the way you handled this. I always learn so much from your channel! I’ve always steered away from yaoi because I didn’t understand it’s intent and there was so much negative swirl around it (here in the US). As a casual manga reader, I didn’t do more research and just steered away. I was curious when you mentioned it last video because I thought maybe there was a positive space for it in showcasing men/men relationships. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate this video!

[@terriermonisgod]

as a gay man, i am just happy people enjoy these kinds of stories! you got my approval, lol XD the only thing i hope change is the stereotype many of these stories have, like usually the characters are very feminine (targeted to women) or they look like they are all on steroids(targeted to men). i mean there are stereotypes in all mangas. but i wish there was more stories with just normal looking men, and healthy and realistic portrayal of romance. some of the most popular ones match that description tho. it will probably be more in the future

[@squidthesquid1233]

the stories themselves are called BL or Boy Love. Yaoi, is specifically made to be fetishized.

[@arianat296]

I think the problem is that they are making yaoi storylines and targeting them to a female audience. LGBT+ representation should be aim to LGBT+ people.

[@user-te7ti3wv8u]

There's a great manga doing this called Shimanami Tasogare

[@racoon2893]

You should read bara

[@mynameismari387]

@@racoon2893 what you're thinking of is called gei-comi. pretty sure bara as a term is becoming more and more outdated

[@PreciousIvy]

@@mynameismari387 huh really? I haven't heard of that at all. also isn't bara usually refers to comics that are very explicit, does this term applies to ones that aren't explicit as well?

[@nickb1156]

some lgbt representation should aim to lgbt people and some should aim to whoever else is interested.

[@rosari20]

My main thing in shipping (fanfiction wise) or 'yaoi' is If i would still like the dynamic and ship if they were a straight couple. I think that the relationship and character interactions should factor more into shipping and pairings than gender. I read sapphic media, gay media, and straight media all the same and I honestly evaluate based more on interactions than gendered relationships if any of this makes sense.

[@Deustux]

Same, I don't care for the gender of the characters I ship, as long as the dynamic makes sense and it isn't toxic or problematic then I'll definitely ship it. And I'm always rotating from Straight Romance to lesbain and to gay. But if I see a gay or Lesbian fanfiction showing problematic traits like non con or stereotypes then im instantly dropping it.

[@lusezh]

istg this video opened my eyes and I'm so thankful for that. i watched many toxic yaois and normalised so many problematic things without realising it. but after i watched this video, i became aware of what type of content i want to support. thanks a ton.

[@jaxbl3525]

one time someone went as far as to criticize me for having bl in my username bc “bl is bad and everyone needs to stop reading it” but it’s literally just the first letters of my last name...

[@taradreams3]

Speaking from the perspective of a female BL fan, I think what a lot of this boils down to is the concept of fiction vs. reality. There are some problematic elements in the yaoi/bl genre, but one could argue the same thing about many manga series and books centered on straight couples. The problem is when people start superimposing the very fictional world of BL onto real LGBTQ+ couples or relationships. Real relationships, be they hetero or homosexual, are so much more meaningful and complex than a series of tropes. Yet many BL fans view gay relationships with their "trope goggles" on.

[@biscuitporkasmealchoice6741]

I would strongly suggest Given and Sasaki to Miyano! Given is already fairly popular, but I want to mention how much I love the focus on both love and on individual relationships to music. Sasaki to Miyano is deeply underrated. It's absolutely lovely and comfortable. It's a generally upbeat and kind take on gay relationships and questioning sexuality that I rarely see elsewhere. It's also particularly related to this video since the main character is actually a straight male who reads yaoi and BL.

[@25254617]

I agree!! Even though I just recently read Sasaki to Miyano but I agree it's really good! It's very interesting the way that they touch the subject of stereotypes in BL and later on show how completely different they are with actual mlm relationships. Ahh I love it so much, just a wholesome romance that happens to have two male leads within the story.