FFXIV Endwalker Venat: The False Savior

[@echoesofetheirys]

Thanks for the shout out! This video is 🔥 and the Amaurot's Character section. 🤌 I do not envy the comments you're going to get on this one.

[@durantes]

Welcome! Like I said, you deserve it. And you're right not to envy em. Been getting some wonderful replies. I'm great at making new friends.

[@omensoffate]

I listen to the venat video you made monthly to cope with the pain of ff14 writing

[@Sazandora635]

@@durantes I've seen both this video and the other being labeled as "bad faith" discussion. Because apparently it's "bad faith" to bluntly spell out what happened in EW and how it all reflects rather poorly on Venat. People throw around the term so haphazardly that nowdays it feels like it's just being defined as "something I disagree with".

[@lolcat5303]

@@Sazandora635 Yeah and also just shrieking ZODIARK TRANCE is apparently a good faith response. Very enlightening how (little) people think. I do enjoy watching the mental gymnastics this community engages in to defend EW/Venat, and how badly they understand the story usually, even if they begin hurling accusations that people just didn't "get it".

[@shawnscouten5184]

@@lolcat5303If you think about the story too much it just falls apart, so it’s really hard to think of a rebuttal that doesn’t just resort to petty insults I think. Combine that with a community that has frequent issues with being uncritical to an extreme and you end up with this scenario.

[@HCSR2]

Venat spits on one of the core principles the story tries to instill from the very beginning, even before ARR. "To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom, it is indolence."

[@MrMattderp]

"But Venat, by not telling anyone about the end of days and allowing us the chance to circumvent it, you've surely doomed us all!" "Lol" said Venat. "Lmao"

[@RvnWolf]

Yeah, no there was no time change in Shadow Bringers to save us from Black Rose. We changed nothing, it was Zenos who returned to the empire killing his father, forcing Elidibus to flee. And destroying the Black Rose project for daring to deny him his Fight with the WoL.

[@omensoffate]

Zenos helping us defeat venat would have been peak giving his heritage

[@ruka9700]

At least he got to eat her

[@RaysofLight98]

But people don’t like him, so instead of a Garlemald expansion, or anything that would tie him in with the blood legacy he’s got, we drop him like a sack in space at the first opportunity. *Also since he ate her, she gets to feed him some of her delulu lines that did make me feel nostalgic at the time.

[@EatTheMarxists]

Also also (probably last ‘also’ for this video) had Venat not intentionally left Hades unsundered, and the other two either intentionally or unintentionally, there wouldn’t have been any Ascians and no Rejoicings. Had Emet been as sundered as everyone else it’s not like he would have remembered anything about Zodiark, the Unsundered World, and having been an ‘Ancient’. Zodiark would have remained, sundered but chained, and his existence still would have protected the planet, and the reflections, from the Meteia’s Song of Destruction. His being intentionally unsundered by her leads to the deaths of billions of people during the Ascians’ Ass-Hat-ery and the calamities that Rejoinings bring. She’s one of the greatest mass-murders in her entire universe. Even the Meteia *may* not have killed as many people as Venat did.

[@EatTheMarxists]

Okay, I lied - also, also, also she only created a nonsensical escape plan for THE SOURCE and NONE of its reflections! Apparently she only gives a shit if you live on the Source and not a shard that hadn’t yet been Rejoined. She really is a twat.

[@MissKashira]

The issue with Venat is less a time travel issue and more a characterization issue. Say you come from a future controlled by Nazi Germany, then you go to the past and give Hitler the blueprints for the atomic bomb, you can't be surprised he created the exact timeline you came from. It's not so much Venat didn't try to change the timeline. Us giving her knowledge of the future *causes our timeline.* We are the direct cause of our own existence. She even lets the Unsundered escape in order for them to rejoin the worlds at the correct time and the correct order in order to create *us.* Millions, if not billions, of people were burned, drowned and buried in the inferno of our creation. Something to think about next time you're fishing on your WoL. Every rejoining was an intentional sacrifice in order to create *you.* The issue here is that people are working under the assumption that with knowledge of something terrible happening that Venat would attempt to prevent the terrible thing, but we went back in time and told her how to become a god and how to shape the star to her preferences and she did exactly that. When we tell Venat, Hyth and Emet-Selch about the future, Emet-Selch is horrified by what we tell him. He doesn't see himself in the person we're describing. Venat on the other hand simply wonders what motivated her to make herself a god and wipe out her species. This isn't something outside of the things she'd do, this isn't news that horrifies her, she's just wonders what motivated her to do it. The answer to that question is Meteion's report. When Meteion said that a race of people offed themselves because they got bored with their perfect lives, that's the moment Venat decided to wipe out her species and replace it with ours. The preparations she's talking about when she's escorting you back aren't her plans to prevent the future, but to *ensure it.* Venat is a psychopath. Remember in that scene when they guy is being eaten and she doesn't even bother trying to help him? That's who she is. She loves humanity as some abstract concept, not individual people. She met her goals, she saved skies and laughter. She doesn't really care who or what is looking at the sky or doing the laughing. She's Athena, but instead of turning people into half-trees, she turned them into half-bunnies and half-cats. My guess on what happened here is they originally intended for her to be a villain, but some exec decided they wanted her to be good, so they put a coat of white paint on the darkest of acts and invented dynamis so there would be a genetic excuse to wipe out the Ancients besides just a cultural one.

[@shaesullivan]

Which could have be fine within itself IF they had just spent another couple of rounds to touch up the story. Why can't the Ascians do anything about Meteion, because they cannot interact with dynamis as we can because of the world being sundered, so they need a weapon to be able to do so. That's the player character; we are the living embodiment of what dynamis can become, both good and bad, but in order to create us we need to go through the trials of a world that is broken and have ourselves be 'reattached' piece by pieces throughout thousands of years, that could be what Emet-Selch wants because he was in love with the player character when they were the original Azem. He despises what has happened because we/player character agrees with Venat's plan, but respects our choice...at least until he has to watch us/player character be killed over and over and over again, driving him to the point of insanity. Venat's plan becomes more understandable this way, as well as does Emet-Selch's rage and his 'vision' of Azem in the light, he's too stubborn to see reason by this point, but what he says about 'remembering him' makes more sense, being that we/player character was his lover, but even moreso if you add other elements. Why does Meteion go insane, because she interacts with us and the pain of our existence causes her to final have a living meltdown. She even says that others can interact with dynamis, so what if being near us causes her to malfunction and then go on a universe wide killing spree because she ends up absorbing our 12k+ thousands of years of suffering and misery and despair on top of the reports she keeps being sent by her sisters? It is very clear that the writers wanted her to have a parallel to what happened on the 1st when people turned into Sin Eaters, which only happens when an excess of light overcomes a person, its really interesting how no one brings up the visual/thematic aspect's similarities to one another. We now are the causes and solution to the problem because we, inadvertently, cause the downfall of the entire universe because of our very presence. This leads Venat to making the decision, an educated gamble, on us, but only after making a few changes. Obviously not everyone agreed with the Zodiark plan, so why not create a pocket space where the Ascians who do want the plan to happen will be safe with Zodiark and can return to recreate the universe using stored DNA from other worlds collect by Azem, our original Ascian counterpart, who is strangely absent from everything? It would explain why Azem isn't around, also why the Midgardsormr through to travel through space to come to Hydaelyn, the planet, and what happened to Azem. Having him/her/them go to other worlds and collect individuals/physical genetic material who can be utilized to recreate their people/races, meanwhile those who wish to stay and survive are sundered because Venat knows, from our future self, that the world will survive and become more able to interact with dynamis? Is it a fair plan, absolutely not, but at the moment no one can do anything about Meteion because of her fleeing to the end of the universe, something that we need Ragnarok to create, which is something Venat uses the Loporrit to create and test throughout the generations in preparation for he moment.

[@MissKashira]

@@shaesullivan To believe any of this, you have to believe the Ancients incapable of dealing with Meteion and that's impossible as the solution, as bad as it was, was devised by an Ancient. So I have to believe this one woman has figured out the one and only viable plan and a world full of people just as smart and capable as she is can't? The Ancients can't deal with Meteion except that the WoL is made up of pieces of an Ancient. We got there on a ship inspired by a civilization built by an Ancient. We would have failed completely if the descendant of an Ancient hadn't shown up as a dragon and given us a ride. We used Ancient magic to summon Ancient spirits to get us past the last hurdle. But again, I'm supposed to believe we are capable and they are incapable, when we are the literal creation of an Ancient. Had Venat worked with others, they probably could have come up with another plan that didn't involve both eradicating their species and letting every other alien race get murdered while we sat under our human meat shield. Because of Zenos we know that a dragon can just fly there and punch right into Meteion's Ultimatium. No 12k years of torture necessary. They could have just built something big and tough and unfeeling to punch her to death. We know from Pande that they are capable of sundering their own souls. So they could have broken off a piece of themselves and tortured that before sending it on it's merry way to go resolve the problem. They could have filled the universe with hopeful species that would change Meteion's view of existence. There were many, many things they could have done. Venat's "Final Solution" wasn't the only possible solution. The reason she went with it was that she liked the WoL better than her own people. She used the information we gave her to do exactly what Athena was trying to do "improve" the species. After all, that's what Ancients believe their purpose for existing is. She just took that purpose to the darkest of extremes. When Yoshi P said, "I guess she was an Ancient after all," that's what he meant. The entitlement it took for her to do what she did is baffling, no one has the right to do what she did. And you know the absolute worst part? The Ancients as a species are so altruistic that if they had all the information and every other plan failed, they would have agreed to be sundered. She stole from them their right to self-determination and mutilated their souls. I'm not sure how you could make those the actions of a hero with a couple edits.

[@genisay]

The trick is, one of the reasons she went ahead and continued with the timeline that we told her about was because us existing, and being there, was already proof that the plan for delaying the End of Days until we could line up the dots to stop it had already worked. But that was only one reason, and time and time again with these arguments, I constantly see people ignore/be unaware of a few subtle, but rather major details. One, because Venat was the only other person to remember what Hermes had done, as much as it saddened her, she remembered and understood his point, and the warnings the Meteions brought from the worlds they visited. That if something drastic did not change, the Ancients would ultimately go down the same paths as the worlds that chose oblivion, such as the Ea. We were given evidence of this on Elpis, they were already on that path, with the greater populace developing an increasingly casual behavior regarding death and nonchalance regarding the existence of their creations. Their disconnect had become so great, most of the ancients could no longer fathom why this nonchalance bothered Hermes so greatly. Venat, having traveled the width and breadth of the star as she had, was one of the few who could still understand. By subtly slow degrees, so slow no one noticed, they were coming to disregard what made life precious. The Convocation was literally willing to let an entire collection of people die to a volcano because it wasn't deemed a high priority to save them. Our Azem had to 'borrow' a concept from the archives and go handle it themselves, and when asked why they bothered, their reply was to point out with facetious sarcasm that 'there was a rather outstanding crop of grapes growing on that island, it would have been a shame to lose the whole concept'. Basically ribbing them for the fact that they would have cared more about the lost concept then the loss of life. This is displayed most strongly when you realize that every single individual who participated in the summoning and fueling of Zodiark, no matter the cost, gave up their lives with little to no hesitation, full well knowing they would not be reborn until Zodiark was undone. It could be said this was a show of just how much they cared for their star, but Zodiark's very existence would have eventually leeched the star dry. Her people were destroying themselves from the inside out, and they were so fanatical in their sacrifice, they could not see how it was twisted. Following the road they were, they would have failed Hermes' Question outright. The second major point I see people miss all the time is that the solutions that were worked out in the past were never a true end to the problem, merely only ever designed to forestall it. And even had the Convocation's plan to restore as many of the Ancients as possible, the End of Days would have come again once Zodiark was gone. Some of this was due to the nature of lacking a greater period of time to work out something more permanent. By sundering the world, effectively hiding it from Meteion, she bought them millennia to set in motion a permanent solution, as well as a contingency plan if something went wrong. If we were not yet ready. If mankind had failed to find the answer. People act like Venat wanted to do what she did, but seem to ignore the fact that sundering the star killed her inside, even as she knew it was the best chance they had to avoid not only the End of Days, but also the road of ruin the Ancients were beginning to walk, so that they would not ultimately become like the dead stars Meteion encountered.

[@lolcat5303]

@@genisay >But that was only one reason, and time and time again with these arguments, I constantly see people ignore/be unaware of a few subtle, but rather major details. Nope, we're aware of the 'detail'. The problem is the story is all over the place with the points you raise. >That if something drastic did not change, the Ancients would ultimately go down the same paths as the worlds that chose oblivion, such as the Ea. Something drastic did change. It was called the Final Days. EE3 even alludes to this as being open to the interpretation that the self-same Final Days had opened to the ancients a new perspective, i.e. brought about a change in them. EE3 also states that the way they understood the issue was whether creation magicks were too volatile to continue or not. I.e. they were misled as to the true cause of the issue, which is no surprise, since Venat never revealed it outside of her little coven. >We were given evidence of this on Elpis, they were already on that path, with the greater populace developing an increasingly casual behavior regarding death and nonchalance regarding the existence of their creations. Their disconnect had become so great, most of the ancients could no longer fathom why this nonchalance bothered Hermes so greatly. I'm afraid I don't see this as "evidence", especially since Elpis also shows a mixture of attitudes to their creations, with some sharing Hermes's issues, only they don't take it to a similar level of existential angst, which is the part that puzzled them, and should puzzle any right-thinking person. Besides, if the story was hoping to set up a contrast to the sundered here, it would fail miserably, because their own attitude to other life forms is by far more callous. I can bring up example after example on this point, and it is not for the WoL's "empathy" that Venat praised them, but their strength (which the story keeps tying back to being a soul shard of Azem.) She is engaging in a case of confirmation bias here. The story has outright resisted the notion that the sundered should be exterminated because of their flaws in the past... why should I find it acceptable with the comparatively more virtuous ancients, again? >The Convocation was literally willing to let an entire collection of people die to a volcano because it wasn't deemed a high priority to save them. Nonsense, that isn't what they were doing. The reasoning was that the people had already been aware of the issue and so had the opportunity to take their leave. The ancients possess the power to travel by magic, so why on earth do you think that this would involve letting them 'die to a volcano' when the story gives no such inference? Furthermore, it wasn't just Azem who weighed in favour of this, but also Elidibus, whose job it explicitly was to ensure that all perspectives in the Convocation were taken into account and balanced, because it had many highly intelligent and strong personalities on it. A "reluctant" Emet was then conscripted to help. The point of that story wasn't to reduce the ancients to some hivemind bad strawman but to show the friendship dynamic between the group. People such as yourself cling to this singular example and spin all sorts of bizarre interpretations out of it but then ignore counter-examples, such as the debate in Amaurot about whether Amaurot should intervene to help the neighbouring cities, a decision the Convocation ultimately weighed in favour of. You seem to struggle to understand that the ancients had individuality of perspectives (something EE3 and the Beyond the Rift quest both stress, but Yoshi also noted this in an interview on Emet, that the ancients would entertain multiple perspectives at once, even if they did not agree with them) and seem to need to reduce it to this singular strawman version of them, like the ones they had Venat 'lecturing' in that cutscene. I guess the case for her is so weak that that's what it takes. >This is displayed most strongly when you realize that every single individual who participated in the summoning and fueling of Zodiark, no matter the cost, gave up their lives with little to no hesitation Because the alternative was that their entire star would be destroyed. All other methods they had tried had failed. This is stressed in EE3. Of course they gave it up with no hesitation under such circumstances, because they loved their star, and they also did this so that others amongst them could survive. So why are you spinning it this way? >full well knowing they would not be reborn until Zodiark was undone. It could be said this was a show of just how much they cared for their star, but Zodiark's very existence would have eventually leeched the star dry. Based on... nothing whatsoever. Neither primal is said to have exerted a constant drain on the star. When commenting on the relative strength of Zodiark and Hydaelyn, Yoshi even comments that because of the technique that went into Zodiark's making (summoned by the Convocation) and the sheer amount of corporeal aether going into him, he was able to preserve the souls of the ancients in him. He only required further energy for specific actions and that was provided through further sacrifices. This includes their plan to restore their brethren. Nowhere does it mention that either him or Hydaelyn require a constant source of aether or drain the star that way. This includes EE3. You seem to be extrapolating from the characteristics of post-Sundering primals, which were deployed by the Ascians to sow chaos, and then insisting the ancient ones would've worked this way or that this in any way implies anything about ancient attitudes to their star, which is ridiculous. Even if it were true that they did drain (and like I said, nothing confirms this), it was certainly not knowledge the ancients operated on, as to them the summoning was a one-and-done sacrifice to bring him about, another to revive the star (as opposed to 'draining' it) and then later the more controversial one to release their brethren (controversial because of the schism over creation magicks and their volatility.) So it is a non-starter. >Her people were destroying themselves from the inside out, and they were so fanatical in their sacrifice, they could not see how it was twisted. Gee, almost like missus could've opened her mouth before this point, given that the WoL had revealed it. B-b-but Hermes would be upset and they NEEDED him and she's just not smart enough to figure out a way to work around this through subtlety. She, for her part, contributed to that destroying from the inside out. Like I said, EE3 had outright stated that the Final Days could be taken as opening them to a new perspective. She just did not volunteer the reasons informing her opposition to Zodiark and instead it centered around some strawman argument about the "volatility" of creation magicks. > Following the road they were, they would have failed Hermes' Question outright. 1) who cares about that woe-is-me-sociopath's "question" and 2) he himself, as Amon, decrees he's seen nothing in the sundered that would change his mind. >Some of this was due to the nature of lacking a greater period of time to work out something more permanent. By sundering the world, effectively hiding it from Meteion, she bought them millennia to set in motion a permanent solution, as well as a contingency plan if something went wrong. If we were not yet ready. If mankind had failed to find the answer. But the millennia would be there thanks to Zodiark's shield anyway. It wasn't until it was removed, even at a fraction of its aetheric strength, that Endsinger was able to break through, so what do you even mean? Why should they devise something permanent to it if they don't know the true cause? Who knew the true cause? Venat. The Sundering was a massive risk, because it rendered all sundered vulnerable to dynamis were Zodiark's barrier to fall. There would be no fuel for a Zodiark-style sacrifice in this event, because the Endsinger would've consumed their souls too. She did not hide the world from Meteion. Endsinger knew exactly where the world was and was constantly vomiting despair beams at it. Zodiark's shield is what stopped that. "Mankind" collectively did not find an answer to any of this. The WoL, with plenty of help from ancients like Emet-Selch and Elidibus did, as well as alien beings like the dragons, and yeah, the Scions. The sundered would be running around like headless chickens being transformed into atrocities were it not for all this. >People act like Venat wanted to do what she did, but seem to ignore the fact that sundering the star killed her inside, even as she knew it was the best chance they had to avoid not only the End of Days, but also the road of ruin the Ancients were beginning to walk, so that they would not ultimately become like the dead stars Meteion encountered. I'm afraid I'm not awfully interested in this aspect. I am judging by what she did. And that involved not opening her mouth or working with the Convocation, shoo-shooing the WOL away and offering excuses as to why she "couldn't" work with the Convocation. I think your response highlights a certain arrogance in this community, that if people dislike Venat or EW, it must be because they misunderstood something, but I note you are wrong on several 'details' here. Even if Venat went into this with the best of intentions, I would have a problem with what she did, because she is judging her civilisation on a basis of a pre-crime (logical endpoint: strawman world Nibirun - but then the quests in UT show even those dynamis reconstructions could have hope restored...), and withholding information about the true nature of the incident on very flimsy pretexts and allowing a civilisation to die for that. The trick is... there is no trick.

[@lolcat5303]

@@MissKashira Panda also reveals they could devise a method to soul merge with their creations. Presumably if you combined that with an entelechy, it'd give an ancient a means to bind to a body with the properties of an entelechy. We can't say for sure how this would play out but they definitely had potential avenues to explore to devise indirect methods of dealing with Endsinger.

[@hatchettwit]

My friends weren't happy when I ranted about this once. I was the crazy one for saying she was kinda full of herself, took an entire world's fate into her hands just because she could. And then you have the Ascians do the same thing. And Athena. Like.. I swear it actually feels like a pattern with those original people, prone to feelings of grandeur. I'll fix everything, they think as they wipe out populations.

[@ladyxer630]

Yet again thank you for the video. Venat never sat well with me and a poster on the forums once point out if this was any other FF game Venat would have easily been the well intentioned villain which I have to agree with. Even if I am being fair with her utter inaction and looking at how her plan worked out it makes no sense, her absolute faith in the sundered could overcome Endsinger comes down to a handful of people and ultimately the actions of a rogue agent she could have never banked on in Zenos showing up to stop Endsinger's Ultimatum. While I know you shouldn't need side content to understand a story and I agree with that notion Encyclopedia Eorzea 3 really didn't help her portrayal as a character and helped solidified in my own interpretation of her she had long lost faith in her own people. This is a note about her sword Allegoria from EE3- "A weapon of Venat's own making, the concept for this versatile armament was never registered at the Bureau of the Architect. Allegoria was described not as a single weapon, but several somehow merged into a vessel in which could change form in accordance with the wielder's needs in battle. Why Venat never chose to divulge the secrets on it's creation is unclear but perhaps she feared they might fall into the wrong hands at the wrong time." I wish I was making that up but I wrote it verbatim. She didn't trust her own people with the concept for a sword that could become other weapons. This woman is insane. I really wish the game would have taken a true neutral to both side of the whole Zodiark and Hydaelyn debate and pointed out both were wrong in the main story. I know the EW Omega quests exist but picking all were wrong is an option there and not mandatory and that content itself is very optional. My overall view of the game at this point is certainly not positive as DT repeated a lot of the sins EW skated by on and I do hope to enjoy your future content if only for the feeling of some amount of catharsis.

[@elrilmoonweaver4723]

So optional, I can't even find the starter quest on my own unless I actually go look for it among my numerous uncompleted sidequests.

[@YohXoX]

I think biggest problem is us running into ill informed conclusions where either Venat assessed her people correctly or not and we have to fill in gaps based on our own moral grandstanding. From my personal and professional life experiences I can say she took the route of most probable success(not guaranteed but most probable). What I conceed to is that it would have been much better to explore her character further in patches because even with limited exposure there was a lot of things that made her rather "uneven" and contradicting as a character which means there must have been a more to her story of why she lost faith in Convocation, her people, refused to return to Etherys, yet held so much love towards the world. If that was done I think we might have gotten better grasp of where she was coming from as a character because I did not buy her "white robbed malevolent goddess" from a get go.

[@dragoon3266]

I personally think the issue of Venat is one of characterization. She’s very clearly meant to serve as a character foil for Hermes. Like Hermes she is marked as something of an outcast in the society of the Ancients; like Hermes she hears Meteion’s report, and makes the decision to keep it to herself, choosing selectively who can be trusted with the knowledge; like Hermes, she alone makes the decision to condemn her entire people to suffering and death. The only real difference between them is that Hermes is motivated by his own despair, and Venat her love. This would actually be very interesting, in my opinion, if the story was allowed to acknowledge Venat’s flaws. Instead, her character suffers for it, because she is consistently depicted aspirationally instead of as a monster, even if a monster with the best intentions. It also sacrifices the notion of Azem striking out their own path, separate from the Convocation and from Venat, that was clearly the authorial intent of ShB.

[@Cerxen]

There was so much potential here that was wasted because they tried to force a time loop instead of a divergence. If everything plays the same up to Kiteris, and then instead of hiding in the shadows we step forward and tell them what happened, we could have had a divergent past, then helped them stop the end of days in their own timeline, before taking the solution back to our timeline to save the world. Venats choices could have been shown to have happened because she wasn't part of the inciting incident in the original timeline, and were in fact a result of acting with incomplete/flawed knowledge. This also woukd have opened up ancient etheris as either a future expansions zone, or (a much better option in my opinion) as a future MMO successor to FFXIV as FFXVII or something, with upgraded systems, graphics and the ability to pull your character customization forward(to play as your ancient self). But that's just my thoughts on the matter.

[@durantes]

Had they made this segment the main idea of its own expansion, that all would've probably worked out. But they forced it all into one. Ruining years of development.

[@erikdandurand3124]

Time travel is a terrible writing device that just needs to stop. As for Venat, yes she could have changed things and she knew it. She was philosophically at odds with her society, an individualist who wanted struggle for the sake of it to give existence meaning. Her society wanted the modern world of convenience and not struggling. She was willing to destroy all to achieve her ideology, and whether delusional or not saw you as the justification that her view would prevail in the world to come. It’s best to not look at these characters as logical or reliable. I have no defense for the WoL they were lineal in writing us and we aren’t allowed to challenge like you said.

[@xion0713]

I remember yelling at the screen when she threw her tantrum summoning hydaelyn i unironically believe in that moment she became the most evil character in the entire history of final fantasy

[@lolcat5303]

Yoshi struggled to explain the time travel issue when asked this directly. As you note, he had to comment something to the effect that it would always have played out this way (imagine the implications of this...) but also that it could be interpreted that a divergence did not occur because Venat actively worked to ensure that (so far from being a hapless victim of a time loop, she is actively ensuring one... this is consistent with her sparing Emet to aid her plan, thus ensuring the Rejoinings, the war with the dragons, etc etc., which all taken alone is monstrous.) I agree with you that the number of possible butterfly effects here is legion, and yet this is not really addressed. It's possible (even if it has bizarre implications) that time is linear but Elpis, as a puzzle piece, can affect that directionality but... he recently confirmed the setting can be read as a multiverse where any number of triggering events can result in an alternate universe (AU), in the context of the sheer amount of possible settings they could explore. So even that doesn't stack up. And this made me even more despondent about the future of this game as multiverses can be very messy, especially in the hands of undisciplined writers like XIV's. Elidibus's statements on the past are bizarre, even if you took them as meaning "even if you want to interfere, you won't be able to". I don't think he accounted for Emet reinforcing your aether once he saw you're an Azem droplet. But no, he does sound like he's cautioning against the interference... only for Venat to later mention, as you note, that it will affect their and not your timeline. I think even if you argued that the WoL was tetchy about how an AU might play out during their first foray to Elpis, this argument is completely defeated by the time you're going back there on the reg and going to Panda to help deal with the nascent crisis there. At that point, after Venat confirmed that the supposed conjunction of timelines had completed, I think it was pretty weak of the WoL and crew not to begin examining the situation more seriously and considering how they could've aided the ancients. I don't think the writers really thought about it this way, as is par the course for EW. I absolutely agree with you that the writers should ensure all material needed to understand the story is in the game - this was the major challenge of debating EW and why we chose, via Echoes of Etheirys, to redress this problem. It was a lot of work because the writers' statements are all over the place. After Beyond the Rift undermined the core of Venat's "suffering good" reasoning, EE3 was really the final nail in the Venat/EW coffin. It makes me wonder if the writers just don't coordinate or if there's some dissent in the team itself regarding how the story was written. The latter seems plausible given that EW seemed like Yoshi and Ishikawa pushing their pet characters (Venat and Hermes, respectively) at the expense of everything else. Regarding tempering, I'd say watch the latest video from Echoes of Etheirys on this. The term is diffuse and people tend to conflate post-Sundering tempering (tampered with by the Ascians deliberately to sow chaos) with the energy alignment aspect of it that a large primal summoning like Zodiark's would cause. As we detail in that video, the tempering of the Ascians did not deprive them of their free will, and this is particularly evident with Emet-Selch and Fandaniel (Emet remarks in SHB that they choose the sundered shards as Overlords, even though any would technically do, because faith in Zodiark is engraved on their souls... well, we saw how that turned out.) Emet himself chooses to upset their plans and enact his own 'test', the result of which he honours even if it harms their own plans. I think the reason the Convocation wasn't swayed was more so that Venat's proffered rationale was weak. EE3 confirms this was the supposed 'volatility' of creation magicks, but we know why that was the case. She omitted the reason. So of course the Convocation would not be swayed to give up something so core to their civilisation. All this to me means it was a real risk that they could be swayed, even if they were unlikely to be given the paucity of her faction's rationale. You could read it, I guess, as her being assured in her belief that the Convocation would never buy this, since she's not revealing the truth. It's probably why she refused to speak badly of their motives in that scene. She knew they were doing their best given the knowledge she had allowed them. Anyway, the way EW presents the third sacrifice is kinda strawman-y, and when you take into account EE3 on the basis of the Schism (="volatility" of creation magicks) and the fact that their brethren's souls were trapped in Zodiark and unable to return to the star, a thing they valued, the third sacrifice makes more sense to me. So I don't think even the third sacrifice objection is fair, especially given that the ancients lacked any context behind Venat's true concerns. Her reasoning has little to do with saving the vague lives in the third sacrifice and is all in service of her belief that suffering is 'necessary' and that this sacrifice would entail a reversion to the status ante quo, and thus 'doom' them. Regardless, like you say, she could've altered this if she offered the full information, so they knew the stakes and what they were up against, but I think it's important to understand that preventing the sacrifice is done for utilitarian reasons and her beliefs about suffering and less so the actual lives, which are stated by shade hyth in the JP version to have been sown by Zodiark. There's also evidence from the dialogue in her short story and EE3 that her faction were switching the context a bit. When they speak of the "new life" inheriting the star, it seems they had the sundered in mind. Restoring the ancients would mean they keep using their creation magicks, as before. I think what happened is she may have fudged the truth a bit and presented as if the creations being sown by Zodiark could evolve to be sentient that way, when in reality her faction's intent was to sunder their own kind and really meant the sundered... but this is all speculation on my part because the writers refuse to be drawn out on it. Either way, the point here is her focus is the result of the sacrifices completing (reversion to how things were, hence their 'doom' will repeat), whereas she wanted to remake mankind. EoE goes over that in the video on the Schism. The whole affair seems to be her attempt to buy herself time and support to bring Hydaelyn into existence, if I'm to be frank. To steelman it, even if we ignore everything I said about tempering or the third sacrifice: she ultimately allowed the situation to get to this point, and to escalate from there. Tempering is something Venat knew how to shield against, so if that was to become an obstacle, it would be one she allowed for. Even the third sacrifice was a situation that only arose because of the nature of the solution the ancients were forced to resort to, and in the final analysis, she seems to have ensured events would take that course. And all for what? The vanity of winning some ideological bet against an insane psychopath whose test had to be honoured so she could be proven right, that life will endure regardless of form... provided we let this abstraction fool us into overlooking the mountain of corpses, of the ancients, of the sundered who had to die for her plan to work, and all the worlds Endsinger killed off after she began her "song". Never has the story allowed us to entertain the notion that it's right to wipe out the sundered owing to their many flaws, so why would this suddenly be fine with the ancients? Seems like protagonist centric morality. Your breakdown of Hades and Lahabrea in Panda is good. One thing that stuck with me is that for all this nonsense about how Venat had to subject her people to immense suffering to prepare them for Endsinger (I won't tread over the absurdity of this), the Ascians as a collective, and particularly the three unsundered, toil for close on 12k years to restore their civilisation. This is a strength of will that is almost inconceivable, and they do so even at immense personal cost (Lahabrea loses his mind, Elidibus sacrifices memories dear to him, and Emet struggles with the blood cost of it all.) So the belief that the inventive and stoic ancients would inherently lack the mental resilience to go through with such a task is just another lie that EW tries to sell, to me. Just tell them the truth, lady! They could then begin working on indirect methods, like the hemitheos project under work in Panda, which allowed merger with creations... imagine if one was an entelechy. Or they could selectively sunder a few of their own. Or devise entelechies or primals attuned to destroying Meteion. Etc etc. Counterfactuals her silence never allowed to be explored. Her just accepting Hermes's insane 'test' is what really broke any belief I had in her as having reasonable intentions. She's little different to many a villain in 14, but to name a few... Thordan, Ilberd, Zenos, Guildivain (SGE quest villain), Athena (Venat without the pretence) and now ... even facets of Zoraal Ja. Just a lot more feel-good fluff wrapped around her. The Hildibrand quests brought up at least one alien world the Endsinger's Final Days had consumed. I'd listen to the lyrics of Dragonsong (sung by Hydaelyn) again after playing through EW... the sheer lack of self awareness is almost admirable. What I hate most about EW is that FF as a series has a strong 'defy fate' theme, whereas EW at its core is surrender to fate and try pretend this is a good thing or that that somehow is 'defying' fate. To which I say... lmao.

[@genisay]

Your last statement broke this for me. If anything, the way I read the loop back around in EW was not as 'you are fated to do this', but you are instrumental in guiding fate. I'd say pushing fate into a direction where the cycle does not perpetually come back to bite you till you succumb to it is a pretty strong argument for defying the fate that was originally handed down. (Being wiped out by the End of Days.) We literally decided to do it differently and not merely hold it off, or run from it, or give in and let it take us, but look it right in the eyes and put an end to it for good. Meeting the WoL in the past, seeing how far we had come, what we had accomplished and how far we could go, gave Venat faith that mankind would not only answer Hermes' question and overcome Meteion's warnings of a stagnating world, but had the determination to *survive*, not just forestall. Even if you ignore the issue of the end of days coming to the ancients, again and again, I see people omit, ignore, or simply be ignorant that we are given tons of clues that the ancients were heading down the same path as the Ea or the Nihilists. Their growing nonchalance towards life. Poofing living creatures out of existence simply because they didn't fit the 'design' of the world, the Convocation willing to let an entire island and its inhabitants be wiped out by a volcano because it wasn't a high priority for them to step in (so Azem went rogue and did it themselves), hell, watch the cutscene where Venat starts the sundering and ask yourself what is wrong with the blind willingness to offer up more and more lives in sacrifice till your population is nearly decimated? Would the Ancients have changed their minds if she had told them what she learned from the Meteions? Maybe, but from that same cutscene and other behaviors witnessed in Elpis... not likely. Much like the Greek gods they were based on, their Hubris had grown too great. Having replayed the entire game in recent months through NG+, I noticed a few things I didn't notice or pay attention to the first time around, and the sundering, though it destroyed the ancients, had two major purposes. It knocked them off a slow, but ruinous path to self termination like so many stars before them, and it hid them from Meteion to buy them time to do more than merely hold off the End, but stop it for good. As the former Azem, Venat had been charged with shepherding the people, to 'Council' and watch over. Hearing of an age where mankind had regained their fervent will to survive lead her to believe that their time as all powerful beings needed to come to an end. And when her own role was done, she too would become a thing of the past.

[@lolcat5303]

@@genisay Yes, except for that 12k year segment of history that Venat seeks to proceed unaltered and commits to that path, and that's what I am referring to. Not her handing 'us' the cheat codes later on so 'we' could obviously resolve the situation in the present timeline... as if there was any other choice assuming you preferred living over non existence? >Meeting the WoL in the past, seeing how far we had come, what we had accomplished and how far we could go, gave Venat faith that mankind would not only answer Hermes' question and overcome Meteion's warnings of a stagnating world, but had the determination to *survive*, not just forestall. But you're dealing in abstractions here. By "mankind" we're not talking about the ancients, because she eradicates them. Furthermore, by "mankind" we're not talking about the sundered in general, but the one singular shard of Azem raised up by her to fulfil this very task, with ample assistance from the other ancients. Were it not for this one champion and all the cheat codes and help they're receiving, "mankind" would be running around like headless chickens and die out entirely during the second Final Days, with no means of devising a shield like Zodiark. So she is surrendering to fate for the entire period of time she is maintaining timeline consistency. >Even if you ignore the issue of the end of days coming to the ancients, again and again, I see people omit, ignore, or simply be ignorant Like I said in my other comment to you, you and many other EW defenders have a very arrogant attitude about you that is virtually always unwarranted. Far from being ignorant of these facts, we're either disputing certain assertions the story is making or are combining them with lore or story 'themes' from elsewhere in the game that undermine EW. >that we are given tons of clues that the ancients were heading down the same path as the Ea or the Nihilists. Yes, we're well aware of what the game is trying to claim here. I'm not going to repeat why this is a weak argument on your part. You can refer to my other comment on this. Like I pointed out there, if we want to play the "they lack empathy" game, I can justify genociding the sundered many times over on that basis. It's not that I am ignorant of anything, but rather that you fell for EW's strawman version of the ancients, hook line and sinker, and then proceeded to ignore everything any other lore on the matter goes to say about them, and in addition ignore the fact that SHB had very emphatically posited that the right to exist is not a conditional one... certainly not when the flawed sundered asserted it in spite of the many, many things that could result in them becoming any number of Dead Ends, and which did result in several worlds dying out due to their foibles being easy for the Ascians to exploit. Nevertheless, the game asserts (via the Scions) they have that right to exist. Fair enough. Now extend that courtesy to the ancients in the face of the woman who would become their doom - and no, I don't mean Endsinger. >Would the Ancients have changed their minds if she had told them what she learned from the Meteions? Maybe, but from that same cutscene and other behaviors witnessed in Elpis... not likely. I'm afraid I see 0 basis for this claim. They were acutely interested in safeguarding their star and the lives of their people. If Venat had presented them with credible evidence of this and not muddied the water with nonsense about the 'volatility' of creation magicks (see EE3 for this as the basis of the schism she exploited in their society), which she knew the true cause of, why would they not investigate further? The video's author makes this very point with Emet and Lahabrea as examples, and we could throw Elidibus and Eric in there too for good measure. >Much like the Greek gods they were based on, their Hubris had grown too great. Hubris is not an attitude of the gods but of man trying to arrogate their power for himself. This is not the situation here. The ancients are, like real world mankind, an apex species. One, I'd add, which given its incredible powers, is very responsible with them, particularly given what the rest of the FF14 world universe is like. Moreover, this entire "hubris" argument is nonsense that various sources, like EE3, don't support, as they instead portray the ancients as ascetic and focused on notions of the greater good on the whole. The only scene you can rely on here is the strawman scene of Venat trying to girlboss a bunch of grieving ancients who had nearly lost their entire world and civilisation. I'd like to see how you'd react after a similar apocalypse were to hit you. I somehow doubt you'd be very receptive to the generic platitudes Venat was tossing out there. >Having replayed the entire game in recent months through NG+, I noticed a few things I didn't notice or pay attention to the first time around, and the sundering, though it destroyed the ancients, had two major purposes. It knocked them off a slow, but ruinous path to self termination like so many stars before them, and it hid them from Meteion to buy them time to do more than merely hold off the End, but stop it for good. Yeah, like I said, this argument is bunk. Zodiark is what bought them time. Venat did not hide them and you clearly did not pay that much attention if you think she did, because the minute Zodiark falls along with his shield, she resumes her despair vomit. >As the former Azem, Venat had been charged with shepherding the people, to 'Council' and watch over. Hearing of an age where mankind had regained their fervent will to survive lead her to believe that their time as all powerful beings needed to come to an end. And when her own role was done, she too would become a thing of the past. Her people never lacked the will to survive. It was what drove them to summon Zodiark to begin with. > lead her to believe that their time as all powerful beings needed to come to an end. A cute way of saying she 'had' to genocide them'. Let's not mince words here.

[@fakeorchestra4260]

The worst part about the Amaurot Elpis plotline is that it tries to prove Hermes somehow right by presenting the Ancients as a society which cannot progress because it looks too much towards perfection. In a way - this is a good message, and in line with the existentialist philosophy of the game. But the issue is, the game DOES NOT show what it preaches, the ancient society DOES NOT look from the evidence provided as a society that needs to be destroyed for the sake of progress lest it pushes into nihilism. WHICH IS EVEN WORSE BECAUSE FFXIV DID PROVIDE US SUCH A SOCIETY IN SHADOWBRINGERS, EULMORE. This is completely ridiculous because the fucking game is trying to pretend as if Ancients were the Nietzschean Last Men, but it does not show it at all. WHEN IT HAS PROVEN IN THE PREVIOUS EXPANSION THAT IT WAS CAPABLE OF THAT. Venat's logic ONLY makes sense if the ancient society is so completely irredeemable and unable to see reason, seeking only comfort instead of hardship - but we see direct evidence to the contrary in literally EVERY SINGLE FUCKING PERSON WE MEET BESIDES FUCKING HERMES.

[@BNBB14]

When we were fighting with Meteion at the edge of the universe, dealing with lahabrea family affair, when the first blasphemies appeared far from amaurot and the ancients were racking their brains to come up with research to counteract those unknown monsters, what was she doing? When the final days finally reached Amaurot, when plants and animals died out, when there were mountains of corpses of her own people, when the world was literally dying, what was she doing? She offered zero alternatives to solve the crisis and later just showed up with her co after the second sacrifice when the final days was over. Her motto is “Nothing is impossible” and she even said that if it could be imagined, it could be done. I can’t believe such a character would sit idly by watching all of these happen, but I guess it’s what it is. Though her fans claim that she already did tried “something” but failed (yeah the evacuation plan that no one knew about and the fortifying defense that was nowhere to be found, there’s so much to be done I guess😞). Imagine seeing mountains of corpses of your brethren and still keeping your mouth shut about the true cause of the apocalypse…that’s insane. From the beginning, she had no plan other than relying on Zodiark. And yes, we and the scions have never once criticized her in the msq. Even a character in the raid series like Ericthonios was able to call out what his mom was doing and tried every possible to stop her. But the WoL as a protagonist of the story, after finding out that Venat succeeded what Athena failed to do, just straight up smiled in a heartfelt and tearful farewell while tearjerking music playing in the background making 99% of the player base crying until they choked. We’re just her tool like Eric to Athena, a weapon she has been groomed for 12,000 years to kill Meteion. She kept hitting her child to death over and over again for 12,000 years until they were strong enough in her eyes while whispering in their ears that she loved them so so much. BEST MOM EVER🥶

[@lolcat5303]

I don't think she ever intended to do anything as an alternative to what the WoL told her. She may have had contingency plans if things didn't turn out as the WoL said, because there was (and should have been) the very real risk of things not evolving that way, as she's trying to ensure 12k years turn out the same way across 14 worlds (which beggars belief as something the story is asking us to just accept), so yep, agreed! EE3 makes her out to be even worse, BTW. The whole schism over the third sacrifice, according to that, was a disagreement over whether the ancients should give up creation magicks or not because of how "volatile" they became during the Final Days (she knew the cause of this, of course - Endsinger.) The way I read it, she just ran with that to buy time as she gathered support and resources to summon Hydaelyn. So the whole argument was over a false premise/non-issue, and one her side fed to gain support, even if this would eventually dwindle. EE3 then also describes her and her followers' explicit plan to sunder mankind and reduce its aetheric density, so even if she didn't tell them everything, it seems to me the goal was always just to go straight to sundering. The schism section even says that the whole disagreement could be seen as the ancients coming to a new perspective on matters following the Final Days, which to me is doubly ironic because Yoshi in the 6.0 Q&A that her belief was that the ancients post- Zodiark couldn't "change". It's all a discordant mess.

[@annalisa32]

@@BNBB14 It’s really like Erich and Athena… except that he denounced her, rightly so… while the wol falls for it hook line and sinker because Venat says a bunch of pleasant sounding words… damn

[@BNBB14]

@@lolcat5303 I’m not even a fan of hers and I still can’t believe she didn’t try anything as everything about her character in elpis suggested otherwise. I completely agree with this video on how her character turned upside down after the kairos incident. Even her fans couldn’t accept it that’s why they keep saying she did SOMETHING. I’ve read some of their interpretations. They believe that she already tried to change everything but failed. And after being disappointed by the majority of the ancients who wished to proceed with the 3rd sacrifice, she then resolved to the sundering. And how is that even possible? How could she try to change things while also ensure everything worked out exactly as we told her? What time-travel rules are these? And if that’s really the case, will she let them live if they didn’t proceed with the third sacrifice? Then what about dynamis? Even her actions contradict her own. It’s incredible how she could persuade a group of knowledgeable people to willingly wipe out their own civilization. Did they even know anything about the future and meteion? You have a problem with our society? I have a plan. We’ll kill them all to birth a new species to inherit the star (and with you as their new gods). Any sane person wouldn’t agree to that, right? And people treat this as a benevolently selfless sacrifice. I’m speechless. If you’re dissatisfied with your society then help fix it not destroy it. Not to mention that after the sundering they ascended to godhood, watching their former peers eat dirt in the world full of suffering live from heaven🙄 It’s funny, if they really believe the ancients need to change in order to avoid becoming like the nibirun, then her no small amount of followers are already proof that the ancients could change, they are that change themselves (though personally I don’t think the ancients have to change anything, their society while flawed was still far better than the sundered).

[@lolcat5303]

@@BNBB14 Aye, I'm familiar with the sort of thing you mention, and like I say, EE3 pretty much leaves that type of fanon in tatters. My personal interpretation of what she means when she's preparing contingency plans etc. is she is devising these because she doesn't have a 100% complete knowledge of the future from the WoL, only a cliff notes, which should be a problem in and of itself where time travel is concerned and butterfly effects abound. Hence the need to plan if she gets something wrong in that sense. That is at least consistent with a desire to keep the timeline 'right'. Then you have Yoshi in some recent comments saying the setting is a multiverse and any number of events can spawn AUs where some details vary, and how they could use this to inspire new stories. It's a mess. We put links to the sources in EE3 on the Echoes of Etheirys videos on the Schism and the final video on the ancients, as they're pretty much the nail in the coffin for people who claim the ancients were doomed and there was 'no other way'. >then her no small amount of followers are already proof that the ancients could change, they are that change themselves (though personally I don’t think the ancients have to change anything, their society while flawed was still far better than the sundered). I agree with all this. As mentioned, the section on the Schism in EE3 even says the ancients could be read as coming to a new perspective on things after the Final Days. The schism was pretty much over a false pretence, i.e. the "volatility" of creation magicks, which Venat knew the true cause of. Her support later dwindled because she mentions before summoning Hydaelyn that they had little support left. Perhaps if she had told the truth, showed the evidence she had regarding Endsinger, and not used a false pretext to buy time for herself, the ancients would have been persuaded to listen.

[@BNBB14]

@@lolcat5303 Then you must have been through a lot. If that’s really what it was then it’s even worse. The game deliberately mislead us with her words about us fighting in our age and she in hers, and the potential of a different world when we go back, who wouldn’t expect her to try something? Then they made us believe that she had already given the ancients a chance by preaching about suffering to some randos on the street. They were trying so hard. Not sure if I should say that the game was misleading or it was actually venat herself. Thanks for taking the time to make such a detailed video that can be referenced back anytime, I really like your channel! I found only two videos criticizing EW plot and it’s yours and this one. It’s a pity. And about the AU, maybe they’ll keep that for the ultimate like DSR, where venat told them everything and their civilization still ended up like the nibirun, because she was always right. That’s what the writer envisioned. Every time they touch upon the ancients after EW really makes me wary, what kind of villain will they make them out to be again? Sadly no matter how EE state people will always pretend it didn’t exist and stick to that cutscene, venat and co will always be a benevolent group who stop zodiark from consuming all living beings. A saving grace. That’s what that cutscene was aiming for and they really succeeded at that.

[@Nayukhuut]

Thank you for this video. Endwalker proper and how it handled Venat was what started turning me away from the game, and the post Endwalker patches are what finally succeeded. I hated the feeling that I was crazy since everyone loved her, and I just could not. I hated that she turned us into hypocrites. All our morals from everything before then in the game forgotten and turned into "well, it is okay if we say so." I hated that she hit the reset button on the world and wiped out all the life she was supposedly fighting for. I hate that she is never called out for this, and treated only as some benevolent force, despite the fact that she, by her actions, has more blood on her hands than anyone else in the story. She is more of a villain than anyone we fought against, and the story just goes on about how much she loves us and did it all for us (and how thankful we are). I also hated that the story showed us one thing via quests, and then just told us we had to believe something else because it said so. I had such a huge disconnect after playing that expansion. Our morals don't matter, what we see in the story doesn't matter. If we decide we are right, well then fuck everyone else's point of view or right to live. That despite us going on and on in previous expansions that every life matters. A few points I would like to add, however. One, the third sacrifice was never really mentioned what it would be. It is usually brought up as a portion of the planet's aether, which literally could have been enough plants and animals over time (remember the Ancients were near immortal). It could also have been sapients, true, but it was never specified that it was. If the former, it really is not a lot different than us slaughtering animals and harvesting plants for food. If the latter, well, fair enough. Though Venat still wiped any of that new life out with the Sundering clear as any sacrifice would have. Life was set back to zero with no real knowledge of what it was before. It had to start again. She basically murdered everyone, and we never get to call her out. Especially if the former, you can't really blame them for wanting to restore their world and their people. Specially since the souls in Zodiark were still aware. The entire game has been us fighting for our loved ones and our homes, and we are supposed to fault the Ancients for wanting the same? Second, I would like to talk about the gods. She mentions that Mankind should hold their own destiny and dislikes their reliance on Zodiark, so her solution is to murder everyone, split the world into pieces (a lot of which she knew were doomed to die, btw), and instill gods of her choosing that we need to pray to in order to keep the whole thing apart and stable. Those gods are gone now, but they left the machine that will turn people's prayers in the energy that will keep the Shards stable. Everyone in the questline was upset that the gods were leaving, and I was just sitting there thinking "My gods Venat is a bitch." No one even brings up the how hypocritical it was to denounce one god and then single handedly install your own. No one ever brings up the horror that if people stop praying to them the world basically ends. Heh, that was the storyline that finally did me in. Sorry about the rant btw. I just... ung. I hated Endwalker and what it did to our characters and the story so, so much. Thank you kindly for the video though. I agreed with all your points, and it was entertaining to watch. I appreciate the time it took to make. :)

[@lolcat5303]

Yeah and the third sacrifice as an issue seemed to revolve more around the implications of reverting their civilisation to how it was (i.e. continuing to use creation magicks) according to EE3. In the section on the Schism in that, it mentions this was the root cause of the argument, i.e. the 'volatility' of creation magicks. We know Venat did not reveal the truth to the broader ancient populace, so she must've allowed them to labour under the misconception that their creation magicks had just run amok, to bide time and grow her support, when she knew this wasn't the true reason. EE3 never centers the debate around what was being sacrificed. In fact, the only time this is brought up is by Emet in SHB (via shade Hyth), but Yoshi commented at the time that we didn't yet know her faction's true beliefs, and we later find out that her faction is far more concerned about their 'doom' repeating, which they saw the sacrifices as instrumental to, because they'd restore things to how they were. It wasn't so much about what was being sacrificed as the end result. >Those gods are gone now, but they left the machine that will turn people's prayers in the energy that will keep the Shards stable. Yeah, and the Scions resolve to uphold the 'noble lie' and maintain this false belief, partly because they think the oh so stronk sundered need the comfort. I recall this being something they would've been vehemently against in earlier expansions... oh well, I guess when mommy is involved the polarity of our morals flips!

[@chrisbennett1358]

I didn't have any issues with Venat, but I was disappointed in what ended up being the main antagonist, the whole cause behind everything. Felt like that character came out of nowhere

[@jonno.alexander]

I feel like a lot of this could have been prevented if they simply projected WoL's consciousness into Azem whilst he visited Elpis. Like memory visiting in Assassin's Creed or the pensieve in Harry Potter. One is an active viewer in the situation, but can't alter anything

[@micebirds]

agree t_t

[@Enochlesis_t]

There's a crucial bit of cosmology that most others overlook when criticizing the ancients for their eagerness to sacrifice themselves to produce original solutions to modern problems such as a reality eating apocalypse and a glassed planet. Within the cosmology of FFXIV, the planet is what gives those that inhabit it souls and without souls, living beings cannot reproduce. The ancients could have left Eitherys and simply fled, but it was not just their duty as the stewards of the star that compelled them, but also the risk-reward analysis of the fact that it is not guaranteed that they could find another habitable planet within the vast, vast universe, across unfathomable distances, that nothing will befall them along the way and that, upon arriving there, the planet will recognize their descendants as alive and grant them souls. To cut it short: the mass sacrifices and creation of Zodiark were deemed acceptable, because without the planet and the means to safeguard it, all of them would have died out either way. Oh and Venat killed Minfilia btw.

[@lolcat5303]

Yup agree on all of this, and well said, but the other thing that people often omit with this is that they did exhaust all other options. Emet states as much in the JP version of the Amaurot narration but it's more clearly outlined in EE3. It's just that their other approaches, including ones not rooted in creation magicks, were not capable of resolving the issue. Additionally, by the time they summoned Zodiark the star was mostly desiccated, limiting what sources of aether they had. That, coupled with their sense of duty, meant they would of course sacrifice to stop that. Opposition to the sacrifices to summon Zodiark, with no alternatives put on the table, would be asking them to annihilate themselves and their star. Essentially a death wish.

[@Max44321]

To bring up a related point, Zodiark is constantly demonized in the story, even by the ascians as their 'dark god', but he only ever did exactly what was asked of him, no question, no grab for power, nothing, and for his work he got stomped on by some mad woman, shattered and locked up for thousands of years. He doesn't even get a single line in the story. By the way, with there being 14 shards, does that mean Hydaelyn jumped between each of them individually to create 14 moons and lock up bits of Zodiark in them by hand? Did she make the moon first and then shatter the world, and the moon with it? Are there still like 7 more moons with 7 more shards of Zodiark in them remaining? Back when there were all 14 shards around, how could she know which would be the 'main' shard, the Source, or did she just create the loporrits and all their facilities on each of the moons? Sounds like a lot of work when Zodiark wasn't even doing anything, and Emet's banter about the ascians getting tempered by him seems to have been undone in Endwalker (like several other bits of established lore have been too).

[@lostaname64]

1 extra point for venat's psychopathy is that, in order to stop zodiark (who's element is 'flow'), is to cut literally everyones soul into multiple pieces, literally multiplying everyone's suffering by 13. But venat's inactivity in regards to preventing is atleast reflected in the 'element' that hydelin supposedly embodied: stagnancy.

[@lolcat5303]

It is monstrous when you reflect on it and that she both does this by intention and sees it as ideologically essential for life. Yoshi even mentions during a Q&A that she deliberately spared Emet, and that her goal can be taken as preservation of the timeline, which basically means she needs for the Rejoinings to happen the way they did. It is story presentation softening it and making it seem more like uwu mommy loves us. She intentionally births all the misery in the world because she thinks it's 'necessary' to deal with Meteion... neglecting that it isn't the sundered as a whole who do this, but one single individual with some assistance from their friends and plenty from extrinsic forces, including the ancients no less, like Emet. Then you have the Beyond the rift quest line further undermining Venat's logic, and EE3 pouring cold water on it. She's not called out nearly enough for it. The whole storyline is about as antithetical to the general 'defy fate' theme you see in FF games as you can get. This is a surrender to it.

[@LoneTurtle86]

Honestly, I never thought about it. I got caught up in the music and the destinations. Thanks for the in depth look.

[@FrostiKing]

Honestly, I liked Endwalker, the hopelessness of it, sending us to the end of nothing for an attempt, it did feel like the end of a grand story we have been told for a long time. I think the main issue, isn't Venat. I think its Medion. At the Nth hour, at the final days the game just laughs and goes "Oh yeah na, there is a whole new evil you can't fathom that's the REAL cause behind all of this suffering and pain and all that, good luck, here is a bird with depression." It set up Medion nicely for the story, but there needed to be hints, context clues, about the best we got was the bard hunting for the Song of Oblivion in Heavensward, and I dont think they did that with Endwalker in mind. I dislike pulling an enemy out of someones ass at the end and go "I am the real big bad here." That's just real bad writing. I mean if there was no Medion to throw a wrench in any of this, we wouldn't have to rewrite so much of history to justify this thing's existence. Can't make a joke out of Zodiark being not the end boss of Endwalker. Just Imagine, the plot is streached out, fighting Garlimald, then going to the moon and try ing to stop Zodiark, and that being the endgame content, no Elpis, no going to the past. And when we defeat Zodiark, we celebrate, then in the post patch the End day's come and we got to deal with it. As much as I liked Zero, it would have been better than her.

[@kataku8609]

I thought the same about Venat not doing anything. We could have stayed longer and try to fix the future. And if we changed the future, so be it. We could have prevent a lot more pain. And saved a lot more people.

[@RicardoSantos-oz3uj]

And we already changed one future in ShB.

[@Sazandora635]

Having to do the Pandaemonium raids after coming to similar conclusions to this video felt like having salt rubbed in the wound. The entire initial premise being predicated on going to the past *again* because the problem there might make the Final Days worse if it's not addressed made me seethe when there was the alternative of "try to prevent the Final Days entirely" when we had a certain emissary present whom we befriended then neglected to tell anything to.

[@Kurainuz]

Funny enough meteion at that point is a lot weaker than when we fight her as she has yet to collect thousand of years of dynamis, so if the ancients summoned zodiark and instead of summoning heydelin to split reality we used her magic to go to ultima thule with help of emet and hythodaleus we should be able to defeat meteion in the past easily. Venat decided no sacrifice her whole species for a chance that maybe we win against meteion, knowing that there are doomed timelines like the one the exarch came from

[@ruka9700]

Im late to the party but this is the easiest sub of my life.

[@Kurainuz]

Funny enought a lot of venat problems and how she just decides the fate or her people are pointed out by omega in a quest writen by ishikawa, and after that she was "promoted" to a manager job after wich we got... zero... and dawntrail. Also one of the most infuriating things is that venat knows that by following what we told her, she is maybe sending his whole reallity and multiple planets not just hers to their doom, because maybe she is the venat of a timeline like the exarch original one We right now can go to the past in another timeline and alter things, but somehow we are leaving that ancients to their deaths, because with meteion lacking tousands of years of dynamis we should be easily able to beat her there by summoning zodiark and heidelin, the last not for a sundering but for traveling to ultima thule with emet, venat and hythodaelus. We beat a thousands year stronger meteion with only a sliver of heidelyn power, 2 dead ancients, 0 zodiarks and power of friendship.

[@orpheustelos23]

Im so glad someone out there is acknowledging the fact that Endwalker's story was ALSO a badly written trainwreck and that this problem didn't just suddenly start at Dawntrail.

[@lastoutcast1541]

Echoes of Etheirys also had a few videos going over their issues with Venat. Definitely worth checking out their channel as well

[@durantes]

Endwalker was the red flag. DT is the downward crash. I still can't believe how low the standard's become.

[@lastoutcast1541]

@@durantes From what I gather the director really wanted to be done with Ascians which lead to things getting rushed when the lead writer had things pretty set in stone initially

[@annalisa32]

@@lastoutcast1541 It’s so sad too because… why were they in such a hurry to close the ancients plotline? I look at dawntrail and wonder, they were in a hurry for THIS??

[@lastoutcast1541]

@@annalisa32 they really weren’t lying when they said with dawntrail they were gonna just throw stuff at the wall and whatever the audience liked most would be what sticks

[@jedikitteh]

To be honest, a newly created timeline would actually serve as an in universe explanation as to why we can keep going back to elpis whenever we want

[@fakeorchestra4260]

I think that pointing to Venat as the worst problem here is a bit misguided as Venat's problems are only an extension of the fact that the game tries to somehow make Hermes to be right about the society of the ancients. The only reason why Venat acts like she does is because the game assumes that we see the exact same thing as Hermes does and that this information has been conveyed. If we ASSUME that Hermes is right about the ancients and that the ancients aren't able to change and are a fucked up society which only cares about perfection and comfort - Venat's actions actually make perfect sense. There is no point trying to save this society because pain and suffering in this society is so alien, that they're not going to listen anyways. This is what the scene of her sundering the world is supposed to convey to us - that she tries to reach out to them, but that there is simply no point for the sheer reason that they aren't willing to listen to her, preferrring comfort over actual progress. In this situation, her insanely extreme actions actually seem somewhat reasonable, as it becomes a situation where it's not that she won't save her society - it's that her society isn't able to be saved to begin with and only something new can be born from its corpse. The issue as I mentioned in my other comment is - The game NEVER actually shows this. The game only TELLS US that the Ancient society is irredeemable due to their rejection of existentialism as a philosophy and embracing of comfort-seeking. The game tries to tell us that the Ancients are Nietzschean Last Men, that they are just people who care of nothing more than comfort and eventually they will just kill themselves (As stated by Ishikawa in one of the interviews comparing it to the last society we see in the final dungeon of the game). The issue is - the game presents PLENTY of proof to the contrary, just as the video mentions. But the issue really isn't with Venat herself, it is with Hermes and the case that Hermes makes. Because in light of what the game SHOWS US, not TELLS US, the case of Hermes MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE. While the game RELIES heavily on the idea that his case DOES MAKE SENSE, and relies on this for us to sympathize with Venat - because if his case makes sense, then so does Venat's response. But it doesn't make sense, we see too much valor, too many strong and good people in the Ancient society and sympathize with them too much for us to say "Oh, this society needs to be destroyed". For a better exploration of a similar concept - see the Lostbelts in FGO where a similar dillema is presented, but the societies in question ARE ACTUALLY SHOWN TO BE STAGNANT AND IMPOSSIBLE TO SAVE.

[@EatTheMarxists]

YES - thank you for pointing out how stupid the plan of using the moon as an escape ship was! It doesn’t matter how long we traveled in that ship, eventually the Song would find whatever planet we moved to and would cause the Final Days on that planet as well. Basically, as far as we know, we’re pretty much the only mortal life left in the universe because most civilizations found by Hermes’ pets were already dead or were dying and they were hastened into death by the Meteia, and their Song wound up killing billions of lives throughout the universe and kept them from returning via lifespring reincarnation and it seems like their Song also turns all life on a planet into decay, including the soil needed to go food and all animals that are used for meat. Their Song would have reached us eventually no matter where we ran off to, and life would have ended with mankind dying from the Final Days on the last planet in the entire universe that was hospitable to life.

[@ConmiesterYT]

40:18 "Ja, we are the baddies and we are paying the price for it!" I didn't care Venat as much but I could tell that there's something really suspicious about her which it's a no wonder why I have stopped taking Endwalker's story seriously. Alas, it was the starting point where I question my WoL's existence, even before Dawntrail and Wuk Lamat herself. Time travel is always such a shit show and it explains a lot of how I feel with Endwalker as I look back from it's MSQ. Thank you for this video, regardless.

[@youtubeuser4221]

No, the rant is fine. I was wondering why, after we just finished our whole fight with Venat, she insisted that physically grabbing Meteon was the only way to stop her. She had all the power in the world to just snipe the bird out the air and had point blank range to do so. She just didn't, and even showed that she could have landed *something* when she hit her with that tracker as she was rocketing away at the speed of light. I just kinda rolled with the "This had to happen because paradox if not", but that's something that hasn't been sitting right with me a bit. Do I appreciate SE trying to keep the game going? Yes. However when the entire last ten years turned out to literally be "Everything is Ascians right down to our own Gods, and we're powerful enough to fell them all", it doesn't leave much to continue with.

[@LadyHighwind]

I appreciate this video. 👍 I dislike time travel in general, but it's just so nonsensical in EW. Also, I love you pointing out the Ancients' resilience and determination with examples of Hades, Hythlodaeus, Lahabrea, and Themis. I was thinking the exact same thing like they're clearly still strong-willed individuals despite living in a society that has less tragedy comparatively and there's no reason to think they wouldn't be able to think of different ways to stop and overcome Dynamis and the Endsinger. It's wild to me how Venat doesn't even give her own people a chance and just decides to genocide them all instead. She really is like Athena yet somehow and for some reason is hailed as a hero. Absolutely mental lol. I feel so bad for the Ancients. They deserve such a better fate. It will never happen, but I wish for an expansion or side story or something where we have the choice to go back in time and save the Ancients. I just want the chance to be a good friend to Hades and Hyth like they were to me. Well, one can dream lol. Cheers for the video!

[@esemq]

As a story skipper, I never realised this game’s msq was SO badly written with this many inconsistencies… For a game that makes $300million a month from subs only, where the fuck is that money going? Shouldn’t it be invested in AT LEAST consistent story writing and AT LEAST better cutscenes?????????

[@PraisetheFluffyTail]

The money goes to supporting other Square-enix bullshit like their endless string of failed gacha games, or NFTs

[@skyesfury8511]

Before watching this, I have to say I'm amused you did a video on her. I haven't liked Hydalen since her secret was revealed in late ShB. So I'm really eager to enjoy this video! OK, watched the video. It was so much better than I was hoping! Awesome video!

[@ludekcortex]

Finally found someone that acknowledges that time travel rules presented in Shadowbringers does not work with Endwalker explanation. There can't be a closed loop system, because existence of the loop requires G'raha initial travel - so how the story happened / what was Venat's original motivation in G'rahas timeline, the one which did not have WoL travelling to Elpis because well... they were deead. Every time I asked about this on any XIV lore discussions, I just get standard answers "you are too stupid to understand that, it is closed loop, the devs said that, everything is working as intended", but does it?

[@lolcat5303]

Yup, as they mumble something about z or y shaped timelines.

[@elaine_of_shalott6587]

"A Paradox, a paradox, a most ingenious paradox" While I think that the real reason is that the writers didn't think through consistent rules of time travel in advance I do have an explanation that works for me. Do remember that the nature of a closed loop timeline is that there really isn't an "original timeline," the closed loop was always there. And we have to remember that in our examples of time travel we have two closed loops and one branching timeline. That makes G'raha's ability to change time the exception. So why was G'raha able to change time? Because it was already part of the closed loop. Being born into a timeline where the WoL he had saved had traveled back in time to meet Venat in Elpis the was able to act in a way that changed his timeline to "fix" the early death of the WoL.

[@YohXoX]

It can be closed loop if you assume all possible timelines are existing from a get-go, changes in timelines are there from the beginning, we just don't see them as players. Venat might as well have chosen a different path but we don't see it because we are bound to our timeline in the future. Also Graha did not return back to his time at all, so we don't know if he had traveled forward into future where exactly would it have taken him. Maybe Graha's time machine allows to move between branching timelines but alas it's a reductive speculation. Point being, with time travel stories try hard people always try to call out "plot holes" where it's just missing or poorly explain worldbuilding elements. Logically there is nothing that contradicts between ShB and EW if you fill in the gaps(if you care about those gaps).

[@jwade3569]

What if the venat we saw in the cutscene, the venat that eventually turns into Hydaelyn. Isn't our venat? Or at the very least it's the venat that wasn't interfered at all with our presence which would be our default timeline. Meaning they could set up the stuff we did in the timeline that where our presence helped venat, in either a post patch story or another expansion. Like... what WOULD actually happen in a world where venat and the others WON against the final days? Or at the very atleast contained it? Probably wouldn't look good for our kind considering that the races and people's only exist because of the final days and there consequences

[@Beathemighty]

This is why I'm super excited for either Hydaelyn Ultimate or Pandemonium Ultimate. Imagine Athena Hyjacking the sundering ritual creating a light aspected Athena Pallas. Or that we fight an unsundered Zodiark piloted by Elidibus. Say what you will about the MSQ but they've been cooking with the ultimates

[@SirVyre]

Coulda swore I had a big ass comment on this one like I did on all your other ones, but maybe I was just like, "Yep, this was my conclusions too." Either way, it's another banger, Milord. Good job!

[@Akantorz]

Story was still good, but I think the time thing is more of an issue of "the devs can't decide which one they want even if the answer is right in front of them." As Dawntrail proves, I think SOME people do have the talent to make time travel work in the sense of the narrative, and then there are others that have NO FUCKING IDEA WHAT THEY ARE DOING. A perfect example of this is that Alexander actually gave us the answer back in Heavensward: "Out of all the possible futures, yours is most promising..." From what we can estimate, that means that despite all the potential possibilities to interfere with the problems earlier than intended, they would not end with Ethyris being alive and kicking. So what could go wrong? Venat's people have little to no control over Dynamis and thus would be subject to loss against Metion due to her Dynamis powers. Think like rattlesnake poison to a Human, the mongoose could handle the poison, he is built for it, but we are not, thus we would die. So many possible scenarios probably had the same issues, if they diverged from the path earlier, this could spell doom for the timeline. I think the sacrifice Venat makes isn't to just give into the plan, but forgo her need to try everything and trust someone, just because she is a free spirit does not mean she doesn't see reason nor capable of free thought. Think of it like Doctor Who, when he prevented his death by using a robot that looked like him with a bunch of small people manning it. He still fulfilled the timeline of him "dying" but it did not specify that is was REALLY him we just SAW someone like him die. The difference here is that we KNOW Venat's people die to give way to our people via the sundering. Thus jumpstarting the ascians plan. Do I think the story is amazing? No, but I think people hate on Endwalker too much because Shadowbringers fucked up the lore by involving time travel the way they did. Were it not for that, Endwalker could have easily resolved the story in a more concise way. In fact, here are all the issues Shadowbringers brought aboard: -They summoned Zodiark to prevent the end days -Something was killing them before Zodiark -Hydalaen was summoned in a similar manner -Hydalaen fragmented Ethyris into different shards -Graha travels back in time from a failed timeline -Uses the crystal tower travel to the first and pull the scions over there -Y'shtola should have died from teleporting again but got saved by Emet because "muh waifu" Thus if they wanted to resolve the story they needed to confront: -Time travel shenanigans -What Zodiark was protecting them from -How to find what was killing Ethyris -Why our timeline is the main one The only one they previously answer was via Alexander confirming that our timeline had the best outcome, could they have had the conclusion be the same without time travel shenanigans? Probably, but at the very least, the restriction Alexander made confirmed that deviating would be devastating to the timeline. Now my hope is that they do not touch time travel again to prevent future problems. Is this a rough conclusion, can it make sense though? Yeah, but they DEFINITELY should have clarified the timeline by having you communicate what Alexander said to Venat. Who knows though, I won't say it's that bad, but a lot of the story being bad is riding on the same shaky logic that it would be better if they just did it my way, duh. A lot of people think these would be better their way and end up wrong, so all I think Endwalker really messed up was the pacing, but I blame Stormblood for dragging it's feet and not being 2 separate expansions and then Shadowbringers dropping a ton of lore that drops a massive amount of loose threads to close by the end of the arc. It was going to be a shitshow, but definitely was a lot of fun, just needed more time for certain scenes and info. Ultimately, this mostly a problem because the devs can't pick one version of time travel and will probably fuck it up in the future. We'll see though.... Edit: Sorry about the essay, thanks for reading!

[@Heyhaylix]

great video, I enjoyed it a lot because I really disliked endwalker. My friends say I "think too much" for the plot, whatever that means. I think though the most egregious part of endwalker was meteion. A decade long story, that had all sorts of plot hooks and breadcrumbs and hints only for in the 11th hour the villain to come out and it be one that no matter how much you paid attention, you never could have seen coming. Ten years of build up, anticipation, theories, lore posts, etc...for nothing.

[@AA-ph5dj]

Just because the writers under thought the plot doesn't mean you're over thinking the plot.

[@echoesofetheirys]

The overthinking excuse is nonsense because EW blatantly disregards large swathes of lore in favor of Venat's POV when she's an unreliable narrator. I don't know how EW's issues were not blatantly obvious to anyone who didn't pigeonhole everything prior to the 'sundering' cutscene that was completely fabricated and never actually happened (Hydaelyn herself even confirms as much at the Mothercrystal). I do get some amusement from the fact that the "Henceforth, he shall walk!" quote people love so much didn't happen anywhere but in Venat's delusional mind.

[@lunaserpent443]

After being hugely disappointed with EW story, the dissonance between Venat’s actions vs. story themes, I resubbed to skip the story and play the new dungeons. I got to the first one and couldn’t do it. EW completely broke my immersion for this game and I can’t take it seriously anymore.

[@EatTheMarxists]

To be fair the events of Shadowbringers are said to not have changed the history of the Eighth Umbral Calamity - it still happened in that alternate universe or some such nonsense and they’re still rebuilding their lives and civilization and our WoL is very, very dead there. Yeah, it’s cheap writing but it’s still FAAAAAARRRRRR better than what they shat out in YawnFail!

[@EatTheMarxists]

Also, she has so much trust in us because she knows that we are the sundered Azem, her protege and one of her absolute closest friends. That doesn’t explain why she never tells the Convocation about what is causing the End Days but it does explain why she trusts us so much.

[@SanctusRexGAVIAL]

The fact that timeline exists is harrowing because of the fact that Ascians and Meterion are alive there. And how dangerous they can be, what's stopping them from popping in the picture down the line?

[@shawnscouten5184]

Great video, it’s nice to see another person being willing to call out Endwalker on its many issues. Venat’s casual willingness to not only doom her own people, but to also intentionally allow 3 unsundered to escape (who she knows will go on to kill billions more) is just terrible writing if you want people to treat her as a good guy. (To say nothing about all the new life being doomed to arbitrarily die after a few hundred years as a result of the sundering. And the continued existence of reality now being dependent on a device powered by prayers to a false religion) It’s kinda unfortunate how many people refuse to call out bad and contradictory writing in Endwalker, especially given how easily everything collapses under the story’s own internal logic. I guess people being willing to call out similar bad writing in dawntrail is a step in the right direction though. If only people would be willing to apply that lens to Endwalker.

[@lolcat5303]

>but to also intentionally allow 3 unsundered to escape (who she knows will go on to kill billions more) It's worse when you consider that this may not just be an 'allow' but a 'rely on', given that her plan can be read, according to Yoshi, as maintaining the timeline in line with what the WoL told her. Her 'escape' plan (which would never work) also entailed the shards dying off, and not one of the Scions challenge her on that. Not even Thancred.

[@NockLegacy]

I was so disappointed with the story of endwalker. At the end of shadowbringers I have thought about what was about to come in the next expansion, and honestly I think that my ideas were way better than what we got. So here’s the story if I was able to fix it : first of all, nothing much would change until the moon, except that Anima would have been the first trial and Garlemald would be 2 areas. On the moon, Fandaniel would not kill Zordiark but free him with the help of zenos. Then they would disappear saying that they are gonna slay our precious Hydealyn and revive the ancient world. I would also cut the loporrits from existence. On the moon, the scions met the watchers and will learn the truth that reside inside the moon. So by going inside the center of the moon, the scions learn the truth about the sundering (not in Elpis, which is cut, because time travel sucks). So basically the truth is that 12 000 years ago, Etheirys was dying. The planet was old, and the life stream of the planet (the ether) was almost all gone, since the ancients were using it so much in so big quantity. The planet, dying scream in pain and let free her minions to kill everybody (the first blasphemy) (like the weapon in ff7) and save itself from the ancients, these parasites. Venat learn the truth AFTER zodiark birth. Zodiark was able to shut the scream from the planet that wanted to kill everybody, by becoming the god of the star, thus overruling the planet order. BUT Zodiark only stopped the minions, and the final days to spawn, not the planet to die. And since nobody knew that the stars was ending very soon, Venat minutes before the end, sundered the star, diluting everything and Everyone, that way each shards would use only a microscopic amount of ether and the star could still exist, even though the ancients has to be gone for that. That would be the truth, that without Venat, everybody would be dead by now. Now after learning the truth, the scions persued Zenos and Zordiark in center of etheirys but are too late. Hydealyn is slayed but not killed, since she succeed to escape the fatal blow. Though, because of Zenos, she gets corrupted and became the second trial. After the battle, Hydealyn is no more, but Venat appears instead. Zodiark starts to block the access to sea of star from the scions and co by creating a nest (the final area). The scions and Venat (after being healed) fled on the surface, while zodiark stays in the middle of the sea of stars and starts to send waves of darkness to the shards, destroying them by distance and thus restoring the old world. This plan (Zodiark being free and attack Hydealyn to get access to the core of the star and destroying the shards, was only possible after shadowbringers, because how weak Hydealyn has become. Prior to that, she could have easily resealed Zodiark, but not anymore. That’s why the ascians prefer to do the rejoining directly in the other shards, away from the powers of Hydealyn, who could have easily strike them. But doing the rejoining by the heart of the planet was always an option, just not possible beforehand. The scions, Venat and all the dirigeants around the world go back to the nest and through the final dungeon, defeat Zenos (who was the final boss of it) and went to confront the third trial : Zodiark. After his defeat, Venat capture his ether and become once more Hydealyn. As the goddess, she stays back in the sea of stars and restored the shards since now she is powerfull (she has the ether of zodiark in her). She will protect the stars from dying by staying there forever and keep life on etheirys. Everyone is happy, and the world is saved. The end. Of course, it is not perfect and not complete, but this is the big plot points that I would have put in my ideal endwalker.

[@emeraldpichu1]

It feels like the time travel aspect was unnecessary. It could’ve just been a repository of memories that you could traverse using the echo and while you could slightly shape the details to better understand the players, you couldn’t actually change the outcome because it was inevitably just a memory.

[@Caribbean-Man]

thank you for this. i hated venat, everyone sucks her off but shes a damn hypocrite. its only in a side quest post MSQ where speaking with the watcher you the WoL can give your opinion on whether venat or the other amaurotines/asians were correct. i chose neither, they were both dumb. EW shouldve allowed us to choose who to side with or choose a neutral path a la Shin Megami Tensei, it wouldve been a thousand times better. i hated that they railroaded us into siding with venat. also as a FF12 lore maniac i hated her even more knowning she share a name with a character from that game. 10/10 video. thank god shes gone. now we have wuk lamat....🤢🤮

[@lolcat5303]

Similar sentiments here.

[@loomingdeath1758]

U wanted venat gone so you got wuk lamat u still not happy pray tell meet me at the waking sand well get u back with lyse. XD

[@lolcat5303]

@@loomingdeath1758 I mean if all the writers can do is write one or the other rendition of cringe... it really does justify the decision to quit the game and find something else.

[@Barnuses]

I think you could account for the divergence in how time travel works by considering how they occurred. Such as Alexander seeing 14,000,605 possible futures and realizing that time travel is a bad idea and decided to create time loops to prevent escalation of the aether being drained from the land. When G'raha travels, Cid and friends Frankensteined our raids together to not only time travel but also cross the rift between worlds riding a giant tower with the limited resources of a post apocalyptic future. Which results in G'raha being sent back a hundred years before he meant to and creating a branching timeline. When Elidibus sends us to Elpis he is an unsundered Ancient/primal who has merged with the Crystal Tower and was able to send us exactly when and where we needed to be. As far as we know, the time junction was created by the fact that we didn't physically travel back in time, it was just our soul and our body was still on the First, bridging the timelines. That doesn't necessarily mean the time travel is inconsistent because the circumstances surrounding each event is different. We dealt with a lot of these issues in FFXI with Wings of the Goddess, Abyssea, Walk of Echos, Rhapsodies of Vana'diel, etc.. And the way they explain a lot of it is basically that the universe we live in is the one where everything works out because we, as the player, exist in it. Where in other universes something different happened which resulted in some sort of apocalypse. It's like the 616 universe in Marvel, we live in the canon universe where things keep going. We don't have a world where all the heroes were affected by the Sil'dih zombie plague and it spreads throughout the Source and reflections or one where Estinien decides to kill the Final Fantasy Universe. There could be an innumerable amount of universes where Venat did something different which resulted in an even worse outcome. But in this one she decided to go left instead of right. That's time travel, baby. When we're talking to Hydaelyn after her fight, she mentions having tried and failed many times. Which is to indicate that where we end up is a result of alternatives not working out. So all the arguments about how she "should have..." or "could have...", maybe she did and they didn't work out for a multitude of reasons. Venat's walk was also a truncated representation of how the Final Days played out for the Ancients. Venat's pleading with the other Ancients being a symbolic representation that she did try to convince them, but they wouldn't deviate from the path they had already decided. Until Meteion's report, nobody on Etheirys even knew other life existed in the universe. And when Venat(and others) were made aware of definitive proof that life had existed beyond their world, it was to report that it had all be wiped out. Exactly what could she have done for the other worlds? Hydaelyn had the Loporrits working on space travel since she sundered the world and it took them thousands of years before they finally completed the propulsion systems. Granted, it was for moving an entire moon, but anything less than a moon with a Zodiark core protecting it would just be consumed by Dynamis out in the expanse. Another thing to keep in mind is that it's mentioned multiple times that returning to the star or lifestream isn't considered death in their culture. In fact it was probably the eventual voluntary result for the entire population when their work was done. Being sundered isn't necessarily killing them. It is, however, an end to their way of life, which would have been necessary anyway if they were to be able to face Endsinger. Which was unlikely to be possible given they can't interact with Dynamis and Endsinger has the rest of the universe's cultivated despair to utilize. But by sundering the world and cultivating suffering of her own, Hydaelyn managed to provide an opportunity to stop Endsinger and give those budding new lives across the universe a chance to survive. But then again, she said herself that there was no kindness nor justice in what she did. So if she is a villain, then she at least gave us an opportunity to continue living to scorn her actions.

[@omensoffate]

The fact that some people actually think endwalker is the best writing in the game pains me to no end

[@lolcat5303]

amen

[@loomingdeath1758]

Wait who cause i thought we all agree shadow bringers was peak.

[@shawnscouten5184]

@@loomingdeath1758I heard a ton of “endwalker is the perfect ending” and “shadowbringers is good, but endwalker is better because it pays off plot elements.

[@lolcat5303]

@@shawnscouten5184 yeah usually by people who'll screech at you if you criticise the story for "missing the point" or "skipping cutscenes", then you probe a bit further and it is sheer projection.

[@azatheeverchosen7615]

You don't know the half of it. I've seen people go so far as to claim it was the best writing in *any JRPG they've ever played* before. Literally insane, and showcasing just how little media they even consume, if any at all for that matter.

[@lens_hunter]

I watched this whole video, after listening to your DT video and agreeing with practically everything you said, as I dislike DT. I agree with some of your points here, but I still love it. No piece of media is perfect, there is always going to be something to poke holes in, but I think liking something despite it's flaws is what it means to love something. FF7 certainly has its flaws, but its still my favorite game ever. I look back on EW very fondly. Great video!

[@josephgregorowicz5135]

24:00 - Just to clarify, because you keep incorrectly saying it, we did not time travel in Shadowbringrs. G'raha travelled back in time from an alternate future to a point in the First's past, after the flood but before the events of its destruction. WE traveled to the First via a teleport spell from the PRESENT, a time where the speed of time between the Source and the First were in synch (possibly due to and needed for the ardor to occur). We were not travelling to the past to change the present, we were told the events of an alternate future, and acted on them despite the consequence of sentencing the other timeline to death or worse. WE DID NOT TIME TRAVEL IN 5.0.

[@Kanaleah]

Technically we do time travel. 100 years into the future. Because of the time difference between 3.4 and 5.0 there. It's kind of like saying someone who traveled at the speed of light across star systems didn't time travel. In all technical terms, they did - but would have had a similar experience upon reaching their destination.

[@AA-ph5dj]

The whole thing with the Ragnarok really made me scratch my head. You mean to tell me that the Sharlayan scholars well and truly thought one ship (that was smaller than a Boeing 747) would suffice to shuttle the entire population of Etheirys to the moon. I don't care how fast it travels or how many trips you make, people are going to get left behind.

[@durantes]

Ugh. Preaching to the choir, dude. Stay tuned. I got some things to say about that as well.

[@lolcat5303]

Also let's not forget the even dumber part of their plan. The thing they're up against is vomiting despair in all directions. Even if they escaped on this ship, it'd come after them eventually as it had resolved to destroy everything. But that said, they didn't really intend to take everyone with until Alphinaud whined enough.

[@AA-ph5dj]

@@durantes The only benefit I could see is Wuk Lamat getting left behind. Cuz we all know the Turali aren't going to make it to Eorzea in time to evacuate.

[@kiearawagner7901]

I thought I remember reading at one point, yes, this was going to happen. I thought I remember the Twin's father saying something like "There are concessions we must make, decisions that must be held, and that some people must be left behind," I believe it was more insulating entities like the Beastmen/tribes, criminals, and those that they could not reach in time, but when you think about, that meant they were potentially going to leave ALL of Toral to die since as far as I know, not a single representative was sent to the New World to alert the Dawnservent and his council of the coming calamity. Now I could be misremembering as I haven't played through 6.0's storyline since, well, it was current, but I thought I remember something being mentioned about that very same discussion and how they know full well that many would be left-behind.

[@RicardoSantos-oz3uj]

She is exactly as Atenea. But one is believed to be bat shit insane. While the other gets a free pass. An we already changed the past in ShB.

[@xShakuu_]

Ultima Thule is made from the planets that Meteons sisters visited that had civilizations that had either already ended or were ending. It wasnt by her hand that they came to collapse as this was before she had gone batshit crazy. The entire plotpoint was supposed to be that there is no longer any life anywhere else outside of Etherys. So when tasked with "finding out what gives people's lives meaning", the only answer they found was death. The dead ends as well as Meteons monologue during the confrontation with hermes are recounts of those civilizations that she came across that had ended.

[@Ethonra]

You don't disappoint with building up hype for future videos. This one was quite eye-opening. While I could write an entire essay about it, it is 2:45AM and I meant to do this 5 hours ago, so I'll be brief. Basically, my tunnel vision hatred for the dark theme of EW's MSQ "I don't want to live, so everyone has to go gently into that good night with me", which was then laser-focused onto Hermes (can't wait for you to dissect him), made me miss a lot of details about Venat's issues and other issues I am sure I missed as I just couldn't get invested into most of EW, I'll spare you the bullet points. I called bullcrap on Hermes saying letting Meteion escape while erasing our memories is fair, but failed to notice Venat's...plan. Particularly because, according to you, in one timeline, the WoL is dead? I either completely forgot that or missed it somehow. I thought the Crystal Tower and G'raha's plan was to simply bring us to The First to save it from The Light. Different dimensions, not different timelines. As for the Black Rose Game Over, honestly, I don't remember it at all. I don't even remember if I remembered it during EW. It feels vaguely familiar, maybe I misunderstood it as what COULD happen as opposed to what DID happen (I cannot stress how vague the memory is), but prior to EW, I don't remember The Bad Ending for us at all. I played FF14 from the beta to just a little bit after meeting Zero and ending 2 out of the 4 Fiends. Of all the things I remember, G'raha time travelling to prevent Black Rose isn't one of them and I find that concerning. At any rate, if I had remembered that, Venat's decision might have popped out more to me...that and if I was actually enjoying EW enough to absorb the story. That character bio and stuff you showed and read is definitely something I haven't read. Anyroad, I just want to end it by saying I appreciate you calling bullcrap on "leaving the story up to the player's interpretations" instead of any real answers. That always bothers me, but even I understand the difference between a truly ambiguous ending and bad, lazy writing. As I stated and hid poorly during my playthrough, I didn't overly enjoy EW. My least favorite expansion. I enjoyed maybe 30% of the MSQ, and even then, that was largely because of Zenos (looking forward to his video too even though I sense you won't like him as much as I do)...but that also was hit because of freaking Fandaniel. The other parts I enjoyed, sad to say, wasn't related too much to the MSQ. Like Zero or the EW Raids, for example. Maybe my subconscious is why EW just vexed me to no end. It never felt good to me like the other expansions. I thought it was just me that disliked EW and the bad writing didn't start till DT...but now, I see it was way sooner than I thought... And no, this isn't my essay. I can go even further beyond. Lol But thanks for reading.

[@lolcat5303]

>Particularly because, according to you, in one timeline, the WoL is dead? He means the 8th Umbral Calamity timeline, the one where G'raha in SHB originates from. This essentially was both a case of dimension-hopping and time travel, and resulted in an alternate universe split (something Yoshi now says is rife in the setting as he described it as a 'multiverse' recently, but ultimately the implication was already there in SHB.) They did a short story during Shadowbringers on the persistence of this alternate timeline called An Unpromised Tomorrow.

[@Ethonra]

@@lolcat5303 I see. Well, alright. As you said, it must have been quite short. The more it is brought to my attention and the more I think about it, the more I remember. But it feels like (in my memory) that it was only a conversation or two, not like say, an overarching issue like G'raha's immense guilt that he may have trapped our friends in The First or, again, his guilt that our friends would basically die do to being split from their physical bodies. He was running himself ragged over it (among other things) so it stood out to me more than "I am not the G'raha Tia you know" arc. Or maybe Past Me barely acknowledged it because whether he's my G'raha or Different Dimension G'raha, he's still best boy. Lol I dunno. Anyroad, thanks for clarifying.

[@lolcat5303]

@@Ethonra Yeah, the short story does basically establish it as a confirmed fact. I'd search for it by its name, it should come up if you add in FF14 along with that. The devs have since confirmed on that basis that their world is a multiverse, anyhow. edit: he linked it in the about section of the vid.

[@alexwebber6663]

Okay finished the video. I completely agree with time travel its a concept in writing that 99% of time leads to countless plot holes. Only if the entire plot is focused around time travel with thought and care as well as limitations does it ever work. Venat having no faith in her people is inexcusable and not only that her plan when you break it down as effectively as you did is terrible. What exactly did she achieve in the end? What I would love is a follow up video on how you could fix Venat but I am not sure if there is a suitable answer within the limitations of a single patch. Personally I think she should have worked with the convacation trying every possible method to try and fight endsinger and to create something similar to try and track down Metieon and her sisters to try and protect the other worlds. Elpis and its society was a great society and didn't deserve to die the way it did without a serious attempt at fighting back. Ultimately they should not have tried to wrap up this Saga so quickly only to replace it with a shallow new journey with even worse writing. For me it needed at least 2 more patches including Endwalker to wrap it up properly.

[@Sazandora635]

Honestly, that's all it would've taken to make her "work" for me; an actual effort to try to avert the first Final Days that either fails or worse, inadvertently ends up contributing to/causing it, creating a scenario that feels more like a properly foregone conclusion, not something that she actively pushed towards.

[@dullahandan4067]

Time travel is always a mistake in writing.

[@ciel5273]

Unless it’s the entire point of the story, yeah. Back to the Future… great trilogy. Back to the blue feathered furry girl… not so great.

[@loomingdeath1758]

Oh then i would stay far away from 11 its got some good amount of time displacia, traveling moments.

[@p03t13666]

I am normally very critical of stories that include time travel. The paradoxes it can create in a timeline annoy the hell out of me. That being said, I thought they actually pulled it off in this case.

[@RicardoSantos-oz3uj]

Except in Chrono Trigger. There it was done right.

[@shawnscouten5184]

I think time travel can work if the story is planned around it from the beginning, but if it’s used as an exposition dump or get out of plot hole free card it sucks.

[@KagagiouX]

I don't think they all have the Echo. Venat has it and she wove it into her protection spell. Only logical play here as it was stated that each Ascian, Ancient, whatever, has their own specialties and abilities. (Why Hades is the GREATEST mage and Venat opts on physicality.) If they all had the echo, sadly, it'd explain certain stalling, which it shouldn't because Venat was able to control it. So claims could EASILY be checked by Echo checking each other... which negates memory wipes because you have a reference point. But it is no less annoying being aware of this... Also note, the First (Rayne, Reen, whatever) complained about seeing the end times approaching too. So not only the current galaxy but the shards and those thereof as well. "They may even try to take E-" Me: "That's an expansion! The 13th gave it a half-assed shot, why wouldn't others?"

[@Chichaetomate]

another of the coincides that i find funny... omega and the dragons... did venat counted on their races going to war? because no war means no dragons in eorzea no dragons mean no enemies of the allagans making the primal shinryu...and no heavensward for that matter anyways... no omega means that when the griffin had awakened the primal shinryu nothing would have had the power to stop it if that doesn't happens then there is no zenos fusing with shinryu meaning we never get the freaking platform to fight the endsinger i mean along the story there had been examples of making makeshift arenas, like the pirate ships to fight leviathan or when the ironworks made 2 huge flying arenas to fight the emerald weapon but i highly doubt that something can be bult that can: withstand the endsinger attacks even tho the wol and the summons take the brunt it you still have to withstand all of the preassure the attack can created... which is not focused on the feet of the participants transported to the end of the universe since we know you don't have the machinery needed to build it there and the ship doesn't has a lot of space being able to keep up with the endsinger during the fight you see zenos flapping his winds meaning he is flying during the fight so... venat somehow started the conflict between the dragon and the omicron or/and counted on the end singer killing pretty much every life on the universe so bahamut only had one destination available

[@BiscuitsV2]

It's completely normal for time travel to completely wreck an entire storyline. Why solve a problem in real time when you can go back in time and waste time to not solve the problem because doing so would create a paradox? As much as I enjoyed my time in Elpis, looking back on it, Elpis' entire purpose seems to be to humanize the Ascians more. I can understand the desire to wring out as much sympathy from the audience after the resounding success that was Emet-Selch. But if I look at it form the outside, going to Elpis seemed to be entirely a waste of time, since this is something we could've figured out simply by going to the mother crystal, which we were probably going to do anyway. So once again, another problem that the Scions could've solved on a lunch break, but we need more sympathy points, so let's draw it out. Also, SE has a bad habit of not including content in the media you're enjoying. Mainly in the Final Fantasy franchise but sometimes it infects their other titles as well. XV's story was incredibly disappointing for me because even after having watched Kingsglaive, the story still felt disjointed because of how they chose to present it. I really wish they would understand that if it is not told or shown to you in the content you are reading/playing/watching, that it doesn't exist, and is therefore not a part of the story. Endwalker suffered from quite a few instances of 'let's not elaborate on that'. Particularly with Meteion and her sisters. If we have time for an arbitrary Test Your Might fight with mom, or time to screw around with the Loporits, then we have time to explore other aspects of the world. It's especially aggravating in an mmo when they say there was no time. I heard that argument made several times in defense of DT's pacing, too. People have 1000's of hours in this game. It's not a movie where if you go over 2 hours run time people's brains start melting out of their ears. People play games to experience them. You had all the time in the world. You just either chose to not write it in, or forgot to. Or your were lazy. None of the options presented are good ones.

[@theegocollective2695]

FINALLY someone bringing up that either endwalker or shadowbringers makes no fucking sense in relation to the other. Honestly Shadowbringers breaking containment out of its own expansion and into the wider game/mechanics/world building was the beginning of all of the issues here.

[@ShxpxRok]

All they had to say is that if we did help them metion would not be solved and she would probably be be far stronger on our return or even going there in the 1st place would kill more than it saved... Metion is an unsundered being so I get the feeling that she is the same throughout all timelines but that itself is a can of worms so after we defeat metion shouldn't she no longer be a threat to the elpis we went to? or are the many endsingers out there what if they decide to trave across timeline? what if we met an even stonger endsinger or 5 endsingers?? the Amouratines could not perceive Dynamis so it would be useless for them to try and to attack her. Time travel is such a bad plot device it makes things so convoluted I personally feel like the end of days should have went on longer it should have been everywhere and you have the red sky and stronger monsters all over no instances so the monsters could spawn so it does not hurt new players or maybe the level 1 monsters appear as level 90 monsters.

[@Ajt500]

As soon as we went back in time to elpis and it wasn't like a singular cutscene where we get some information but instead was a whole area where we started being able to walk around and talk to people I knew something was off because us doing random stuff back there should've started messing up stuff for the future but they didn't want us to think about that I guess

[@ArtificialOcean]

It's been years and I've long quit but I still occasionally think about how weird the writing around this one character was and how it felt very much like a case of the Emperor's new clothes until Dawntrail came around and a bunch of people realized they got flashed. Kind of hard to let go fully after being invested since 3.0, after all. I can't entirely blame Endwalker either, it's just the logical end result of the trends of ShB and its patches but most people didn't seem to mind because the story dipped its toes in nuance and it was full of emotion. Let's see... 1. Remember when the ascians were not-orgXIII? Sorry, only 3 of them ever mattered. Actually, only one, Emet! Oh, and then Fandaniel too. And they're both Ishikawa characters, what a coincidence! 2. Garlemald exploding offhand, much of the city levelled, the entire royal family killed because for some reason they all gathered in one spot. Convenient! 3. Funny magic piggies solved the long-standing problem of tempering. 4. The Good Guy Alliance are now super best friends with the beast tribes (sorry, allied societies now) with decades/centuries long grudges forgotten and this shows no sign of going away. 5. Elidibus is handed the idiot ball and gets himself killed and also getting magic dementia. Convenient! I recall much acclaim and clapping over how Endwalker 'cleanly' tied up every plot thread and the end result, the story that CBU3 was apparently aching to break their shackles of old lore and clear the board entirely to tell was.... Dawntrail. Anyway, I digress, it's a great video and many people have summarized their problems of Venat in a better way than I could have. When you throw time loops, memory wipes, and surrender fully to the whims of protagonist-centered morality where anything goes as long as you are a 'good guy' I can't take a story seriously anymore. Nor something like EW where it exalts the virtues of suffering and struggling but you know nothing truly bad will happen to the main characters (or else fans will have meltdowns and make Yoshida retcon it).

[@lolcat5303]

And of course they'll drop all that preaching and sermonising about 'suffering' the minute the next expansion hits... the game barely even remembers dynamis at this point, but then that was just the excuse for wiping out the ancients. The minute it ceases to be useful, in the memory hole it goes.

[@ArtificialOcean]

@@lolcat5303 Don't even get me started on dynamis and the Blasphemies, introduced at around the same time they seemed to be sunsetting primals as a threat. Feels energy? Pretty cliche, but maybe it could lead to new plotlines where someone snaps under the weight of their emotional burdens and becomes a horror nightmare monster. No? Guess not. That would be a little too uncomfy for the Second Life goon-and-plap ERP crowd (who needs their fantasy setting to be as bland and sanitized as possible while they write 200 page long google doc callouts on each other) and cut into the G'raha mukbang budget.

[@oppaijustice9146]

@@ArtificialOcean "That would be a little too uncomfy for the Second Life goon-and-plap ERP crowd and cut into the G'raha mukbang budget." LMAO Thank you for taking your time to type this post, it made my day better.

[@RicardoSantos-oz3uj]

If Venat were treated for what she was. A charismatic psycho villain. Then the story would have been one of the better stories of all time and a warning how otherwise good people can fall into personality cults. Like 90% of the FF14 fanbase did at the time. If you said something at the time you where either disregarded or activelly attacked. That's when I realized the fanbase turned into a cult. Not the first time that happens. Remember how people where activelly defending "The force Awakens" and its MaRey Sue in Star Wars? Then the Last Jedi Happen. Which was an economical success but doomed the next sequels. Dawntrail is the Last Jedi or FF14, while EW was "The force awakens" The thing is that cults are traps not only for the cultist but also for the cult leader. Who develop a sense of invinsibility and as a result, destroy their cult. Unless Square get more serious with their product. 8.0 will be their "Rise of Skywalker". Afterwards it will be dead. People have started developing Apathy for the game. So i don't think they will have as many pre-orders for 8.0.

[@kohlicoide2258]

Imo using Time Travel in your Story is always a REALLY bad idea.. because at some point you f$ck something really bad up, thats the reason why i say you should avoid it at all cost, i mean sure i like some lighthearted storys like Back to the Future etc.. one of my favorit movie triology.. but after it get more serious, its just a matter of time until you find the first logic problems.

[@elaine_of_shalott6587]

I mostly like your video, but I interpret some of the discussions in Elpis diffently. As I understood what was being said, we came with the statement from Elidibus that we cannot change the timeline. When we refused to answer Venat and she said that it would create an alternate timeline we, the Warrior of Light, changed our mind. I don't see the final discussion with Venat changing that. She says she is going to prepare to avert the final days, to unite her people to face the struggle ahead, but she isn't willing to risk the division that might result from confiding in the convocation or revealing Hermes' actions. A decision I felt my character while not entirely agreeing with, might accept with the immediate need to return to our own time. Note that when we return, at least weeks, have passed since the Scions had spent some time fighting the effects both in Garlemald and in Corvos. It is also true that she seems to have become more comitted to preserving the timeline and made only a halfhearted attempt to avert the initial final days. Admittedly the next bit is not backed up by anything substantial but remains plausbile with the few hints we are given of what happened in the intervening time. To me the key is Pandaemonium. When we spoke with Themis he told us that he had heard about us from Venat, It is reasonable that he may have told her about his encounter with us. If not Themis, then we know that more than one of Venat's supporters, upon whom she patterned the Twelve, were in Elpis at that time. My theory is that hearing about our return, she came to the logical conclusion that we only would have been able to return if we had succeeded in defeating Metion. And she chose what was now the certainty of our victory in 12K years over any attempt to bring about an earlier victory, but that if it failed might result in the complete destruction of Eitherys before we came along. I do agree that it is still a morally suspect position, but one more in keeping with the general flaws of the culture of Amaurot as we are shown it. Once last point I will dispute is that you say we are never given the choice to dispute Venat's choice. That is incorrect. You do have the option in the Omega quests to tell Omega that Emet-Selch was right, that Venat was right, or that they were both wrong. The last option being the one that I chose. I see Emet-Selch, Hades and Venat all being very similar. They all have that same fundamental flaw in being so arrogant to believe that they alone have the right to choose who is worthy of living and dying. A flaw that seems to be inherent to their culture.

[@durantes]

I did forget to mention the Omega quests. That is true. Though that hardly fixes the problem. We don't call out Venat to her face. When it actually meant something. Saying in hindsight, "Yeah, she did wrong, too" doesn't matter much when we were forbidden to say it to her when we had ample opportunity to. I'll have to remember to talk about that angle in a future video.

[@lolcat5303]

>It is also true that she seems to have become more comitted to preserving the timeline and made only a halfhearted attempt to avert the initial final days. At this point, I think it is. EE3 basically mentions that the schism in ancient society over the third sacrifice was predicated on the 'volatility' of creation magicks, but she knew the true cause of that. Furthermore, it mentions she and her following had intended from the outset to sunder mankind to be aetherically thinner. Yoshi also mentions in the 6.0 Q&A that she can be interpreted as committing to the timeline. Her sparing Emet also suggests as much. All this combined can be taken as a basis for this conclusion. >When we spoke with Themis he told us that he had heard about us from Venat There is the issue that the time fast-forward occurs right after you leave Elpis and by then she's committed to that path already, but given the sloppiness time travel introduces and that the writers make it up as they go... who can say. >Once last point I will dispute is that you say we are never given the choice to dispute Venat's choice. Yeah, the issue is that this is in a side quest after the main expansion has concluded that the writers know full well most people will never bother to touch. Admittedly, it does undermine her reasoning a bit through some plot elements, but because of the way it's structured, it doesn't really factor into anything else as Durantes points out. >If not Themis, then we know that more than one of Venat's supporters, upon whom she patterned the Twelve, were in Elpis at that time. I think this is the issue with the way they wrote her and her motives - it requires logical leaps like this that the story never quite states to be the case and still don't really do much to move the needle on the matter. >A flaw that seems to be inherent to their culture. Because it's applied to animals and plant life forms? Takes a nutcase like Hermes to apply it to his own species and an ideologue like Venat to think this is a proposition even worth 'testing' on a 'fair' basis. They at least recognised this with Athena, and with her it took a magic alien rock to remove her inhibitions. Emet is at least fighting to restore his people to their proper state, something taken from them without warning and on false pretences. Some of the Scions admit they would do similar in those circumstances. Even if we want to claim that this was just a manifestation of the 'flaws' of their culture, since when does the game hold up someone epitomising said flaws on a pedestal? In this case, you'd go for a character like Themis or Eric, fighting the 'inevitability' of their fate. My only regret with that quest is that I couldn't pick Themis/Elidibus.

[@echoesofetheirys]

​@@durantesTo be fair, the Omega quest line was added later. It still remains that within 6.0, Venat's story arc (after which she's soul dead), you cannot dispute anything she's done. IIRC, Ishikawa specifically wrote Omega: Beyond the Rift due to negative feedback they'd received about Venat.

[@durantes]

@@echoesofetheirys As usual. Ishikawa is the best.

[@akseiya]

How much does it unfuck itself when you acknowledge that Venat, a specialist in using Aether, might have limited options when dealing with a being of Dynamis? OK it's just one thing. Still many fuckups, very likely indeed stemming from Endwalker cramming something like 3 xpacs into one...

[@yugifrolife]

👏🏽 👏🏽 👏🏽 👏🏽 👏🏽 Bravo!!

[@alexwebber6663]

I have only finished up to the time travel dilemma but will do a 2nd comment when finished the whole video. I wanted to drop an early comment of appreciation early before finishing the video as thanks for this long video. I have to be honest I didn't have as many problems with Venat like yourself and others did because at the time I was hyper focused on the terrible writing of Fandaniel/Hermes and meteion (Evil twitter) as well as the disappointment that was Zodiark. For me what ruined Endwalker was the fact they tried to do too much in one patch that if done with care could have taken another 2 patches if they handled Garlean empire with the attention it deserved after a decade of build up. Also I don't think I will hate any character as much as Fandaniel/Hermes and Wuk Lamat anytime soon even with this superb video. Regarding the time travel I just felt that Venat being as wise and intelligent as she was knew it was futile to spend effort on something that cannot be changed and chose to spend her efforts on mitigating the damage. I like you did find it very concerning she instantly trusted you the MC more than her own people but ultimately I brushed aside most criticisms about her due to having bigger issues with the rest of the story and didn't focus on it as much as I should have done in hindsight. Also to my own discredit forgot the very CRUCIAL detail that it was extremely out of character for Venat to behave the way she did considering what we know about her from other characters and lore surrounding the game which at the time I didn't focus on. I honestly regret not looking at her character with a more critical eye. The more you know about the game and the lore the less her behavior makes any sense at all. While I was never as enamored by Venat and her plight like the majority of the player base I will admit I didn't think for a long time she was as bad as the haters thought she was. However coming back to Endwalker's story with a more critical eye it made me notice more problems with Venat and her plot so I started seeking out channels like yours that did a deep dive into it. Here you have complied all the issues with her behavior and the excuses for it and dismantled each point effectively by using examples from the lore and Venat's own character description in game. Thank you so much for this and I look forward to the rest of the video.

[@omensoffate]

When you call people that critique the writing haters i automatically stop caring about your opinion

[@alexwebber6663]

@@omensoffateYeah you misunderstood me. I was hyper focused on other characters that I didn't really think about Venat too much. Not once did I label anyone critical of Endwalker as a hater. While I didn't hate all of Endwalker I did hate parts of it a lot. On my first run of the MSQ I admitted I overlooked Venat's problems at the time. I admit I stepped out of FF14 until Dawntrail because Endwalker was such a disappointment to me. I watched a stream of it to prepare myself for the Dawntrail story. My rage towards characters like Fandaniel/Hermes had calmed over time so I had more focus on Venat and started watching videos like this which do a great job of compiling all the problems I have with her character in once place.

[@Naxthural]

I think the Ascians being Tempered by Zodiark is a bad part of the writing for the simple reason that tempering is their invention. They made primals do that, why would they do it to themselves when they have the echo? Also it removes agency from them as characters and robs them of a lot of the tragedy of "they want their world back and they're willing to go to any lengths to do it." Which is why they're villains at all. Agency is required for true villainy. As we see with Venat. Other than that, amazing video and a lot of really good points. Edit: The original part of this comment stated I did not think the Ascians were Tempered. I however was pointed to the obscure dialogue from Emet confirming that they were. I however, still think it is not a good part of the story by any means. It still removes their agency and thus, a very interesting part of them.

[@lolcat5303]

Emet states point blank that they're tempered (it is worth noting he also states this is true of the sundered Ascians such as Fandaniel, which should expose how little influence this 'tempering' really has.) The issue is more with the nature of it. There's many facets to tempering, and the one Emet is alluding to is alignment to the primal's energy. The channel Durantes alludes to, Echoes of Etheirys, has a recent video going over the tempering argument and showing it is not something the writers ultimately invoke in any way. It does take a lot of time to go through it all so I'd recommend it, but your intuition is right. As you note, it would remove agency if they went with the sort of tempering the post-Sundering primals engage in, but we know that that specifically is the result of the Ascians adding a bit of extra secret sauce to those summoning rites, which results in zeal to convert to the primal, which was not present for Zodiark. They tried to explain away Lahabrea's zeal through the erosion of his identity over time, but with Emet-Selch and Elidibus (even though he sacrifices some of his memories) you see that they have their own intrinsic motivations, and Emet-Selch chooses to diverge from their usual plan and go through with his own, further highlighting that it's not a strong form of tempering. So I agree with you and I think the writers correctly abstained from invoking tempering as an explanation of their motives.

[@Naxthural]

@@lolcat5303 In what cutscene does he state that he is tempered because I certainly do not remember that.

[@durantes]

My assumption was based on Emet referring to him as "Lord" Zodiark. Nothing in Elpis suggests he's the pious type. That, along with the general nature of primals, including the fact Zodiark was summoned to be a savior, is why I stick to the belief they were at least partially tempered.

[@Naxthural]

@@durantes I can see why you would think that, especially given the fact that lahabrea outright worships Him. I think the reverence and title might have more to do with the souls in Zodiark. The idealism forces Him to be above Emet, thus a title. My perspective on the matter is if they are the ones who tampered with creation magic to make tempering happen to mess with beast tribes why subject themselves to it? Far as I know Laha just went crazy and thought of Zodiark as a god while Emet was acting of his own volition. In Shadowbringers he's looking for a reason to stop all of this. He is a man who clearly doesn't want to keep going on, while other Tempered people never show signs of second guessing or being tired at all

[@lolcat5303]

@@Naxthural It's one of the side dialogues when you question him on the nature of the Ascians in the quest The Best Way Out. His comments on the nature of the Overlords is from Return to Eulmore side dialogue. If you look it up on Gamerescape you'll find it. Of course, I would watch the video we made on Echoes of Etheirys (the most recent one) to consider all the sources on the subject in totality. Again I would note that the game uses the term "tempering" both for the energy alignment to the primal and also the heavier form that the Ascians introduced into the post-Sundering rites. It also uses it in cases like Tiamat's, where she retained her will. So the concept is diffuse and covering many possible facets. You're correct that nothing has ever suggested that type of tempering would be present in the original primal summoning, because the Ascians deliberately inserted this to sow chaos. At most what we see here is an affinity to the primal's element. Emet certainly revered Zodiark for what he represented, the salvation of their people, but he acted of his own volition and was aware he was no god as such. Lahabrea is likelier the result of allowing his identity to be eroded such that, over the millennia, he became more reverential to the primal, but this is just me speculating using various other tempering lore that could give rise to such an interpretation. The video I alluded to goes over all the main sources on this. Overall I agree with you that it's a non issue. Even if it had been, Venat both knew of what would happen once Zodiark was summoned (she was told) and she also knew how to ward against 'aetheric corruption', so I cannot see this acting as a blocker for her to reason with the Convocation. She just had no intention to.

[@katiepersons6575]

Venat was the ten year story arc big bad we needed. Instead we got depressed bird.

[@durantes]

Complete with Hot Topic attire, too.

[@ollaniuspius1211]

And they had the AUDACITY to have us spare that blue chicken...

[@echoecho2666]

To be fair I’m pretty happy Venat wasn’t the true big bad because god that would’ve been the most boring and predictable way the story would’ve gone, but I do think they could’ve done something else

[@RicardoSantos-oz3uj]

@@echoecho2666 She was indeed a villain. Just because someone has a fake excuse for their actions doesn't clean them up.

[@joseduran7104]

Um hold up wasn't shadowbringers on a whole different star to one of the reflections not going forward or back in time to a different world rocked by the calamity of light if I remember correctly it's the first reflection where the star still lives but was tittering towards fully falling to the light until the WoL came along to stop it I am confusion?

[@honest_psycho7237]

I'm highly confused, maybe someone can summarize Venat's reasons for not telling Emet-Selch what happened? Maybe because the Sundering was neccessary, so the split souls (less rich in aether) can wield Dynamis to defeat Meteion? Because there was no other way to prevent the End Days since Meteion escaped? But as you said, there could have been better alternatives than Zodiarcs aethercage. Like creating another creature to go after Meteion etc, so why didn't Venat say anthing afterwards? Man, I need to replay the whole MSQ, beceause I wish I payed more attention. Would have saved me from suffering through Dawntrail...

[@lolcat5303]

It's that she did not want to consider alternative paths. Her reasons are quite literally the ones cited in the video in the Hermes timestamp section. Very flimsy, weak reasons. This is a woman who was a seasoned problem solver, and she can't think of a few ways to work around Hermes? But she's going to maintain timeline consistency over 12k years over 14 worlds? This is the sort of thing this story wants you to believe with a straight face.

[@honest_psycho7237]

​@@lolcat5303 Looked up some discussions as a refresher: One of the (many) reasons to not tell anyone is because dealing with the problem now and forever will lead to a scenario, where the ancients go back to a perfect utopia, get bored and off themselves (like that race in the Dead Ends dungeon). I think Meteion herself mentions this race to Hermes iirc. So the sundering produces lesser beings, who will learn to deal with strife on their own, leading to more fulfilling lives, makign sure life persists. But yeah, this is the same insane logic like Thanos. I actually liked Endwalker back then but I wasn't in the right mindset to actually think about whats happening.

[@MaikeruX989]

As best I understand, Venat was restricted as to what she could say to ES, Hyth, and the Convocation as she didn’t want to do anything that would disrupt the Sundering. Again as best I understand, she did whatever she could to prevent the Final Days, as long as it wouldn’t do anything to jeopardize the Sundering should the Final Days still come.

[@lolcat5303]

@@honest_psycho7237 Well my issue with that reason is that she's prejudging the outcome based on a couple of lines from a report regarding a species that wasn't really all that similar to the ancients (for one, they became immortal unlike the ancients who naturally had long lifespans and thus were used to that), shallow visual parallels aside. It wasn't lost on me that their world literally looked like it was made out of straw. : ) Fitting for strawmen of the ancients. She also doesn't want the broader ancients to 'panic' (ignoring that not knowing the nature of the Final Days causes just this after nothing they try works), thinks Hermes is 'necessary' and doesn't want to risk depriving the Convocation of his 'genius' even though she knows the exact nature of the problem and that the solution would take, and also ignoring that the ancients have plenty of ways to ensure his compliance. >But yeah, this is the same insane logic like Thanos. Pretty much. There's a lot of issues with the assumptions there, such as the notion that suffering of the kind she's introducing to the world (in contrast to challenging oneself under controlled circumstances, which is what can help build fulfilment and strength) is essential to a fulfilling life. It's a well known fact that suffering can also psychologically break someone, especially the type she's "birthing" into the world and I think you have to account for the fact that that could actually render the sundered more susceptible to Endsinger in turn. The Omega quest Beyond the Rift actually touches on this and walks back some of the more unfortunate narrative implications the story had, but in so doing it also undermines her reasoning. This is in addition to her making them aetherically thinner which makes them more vulnerable to dynamis. Her plan is pretty insane and very reliant on the WoL and crew hard carrying the sundered as a whole with plenty of external assistance, both from beings like the dragons, Emet-Selch, Hyth and Elidibus and also Zenos taking the decision to go assist the WoL. Using her reasoning, we could also prejudge the sundered as being susceptible to various dead ends, and any in that dungeon would qualify, including the Nibirun, because as I mentioned, they became that way, and nothing has changed in terms of the ideals the likes of the Scions hold sacred... even if it did, time would eventually remedy that.

[@lolcat5303]

@@MaikeruX989Well I'd agree that you're correct there - if you interpret her actions, as Yoshi says they can be interpreted, as trying to preserve the timeline, then yes, all the other reasons are window dressing and that's the actual true reason why she is not telling the truth.

[@ArioDragon]

But wasn't the whole point of sundering, so people could use Dynamis somewhat? Otherwise Meteion would just wipe out anyone that tries to reach her without any effort. Time travel tough? That part is a big OOF that's for sure. Tough i liked our time with Emet and Hythlodaeus.

[@ulibarriL]

Enlighten me to how WE changed history in ShadowBringers. Ugh. This drives me so crazy when people say this. We didn't change anything. Even now, in DT, we are playing out our timeline as set in Endwalker. In ShB, we did not alter the course of G'raha's timeline. ShB is a continuation of ARR and the Ascian's plot of a rejoining. We went to another reflection, eliminated a bunch of light wardens returning nightfall to the realm, liberated Eulmore and Ryne from tyranny and an unjustified fate respectively, and nearly succumbed to the light before absorbing a shard of Azem and using that light to kill the most prominent Ascian of the unsundered. That's what happened. The Black Rose and the 8th Umbral calamity were thwarted by none other than Zenos. On the SOURCE. No tower was needed. Only a hunter who won't let anything stand between him and his prey. All this did was allow G'raha to exist outside his own timeline so he can simp for the WoL in hers. F everyone he left behind. This is why I hate time travel in stories. There are only two theoretical possibilities to play out. 1. You enter a bootstrap paradox wherein every action and inaction results in the events you're trying to change to take place. 2. You create an alternate timeline, thus performing an exercise in futility to change the current. Don't get me wrong. You're absolutely 💯 correct on Venat. However, it's not that she didn't do anything. She did do something. She took the knowledge we gave her and used it to genocide her people. Making us complicit in their murder. This is exactly why the WoL looks upon her with vengeful disdain when we meet her in the Mother Crystal. The devs and her simps will continue to support her decision, though. Being a god in FFXIV is a thankless job.

[@durantes]

Zenos' actions were an important part. That much I don't argue with. But the total collapse of Garlemald came about thanks to Fandaniel's machinations. And he was only able to break free from the Ascians thanks to the Unsundered all dying thanks to us. Thanks to Graha's interference via time travel. So, yes. We do in fact alter history from Graha's original timeline through these actions. Without them, EW doesn't play out the same. Or at all, more like than not.

[@ulibarriL]

@durantes Well, Fandanial is the catalyst to everything. Without him, the entire game doesn't take place. His construction of Metion and her sisters engineers a self-fulfilling prophecy that brings about his own destruction. The game uses both time travel scenarios I pointed out earlier with G'raha and the WoL being the jumpers. With G'raha, his respective timeline where Blackrose is unleashed and the WoL dies still exists. He merely hopped onto an alternate timeline where it doesn't. Only for him does history change. The WoL is placed on the other scenario, wherein going to Elpis as the sundered Azim is fated, and puts the wheels in motion for the End of Days and Venat's mass murdering of her own people. The point being, we, the WoL and the Scions, don't alter the course of history in any way. If we altered history in such a way that the End of Days never takes place, our current form as an eight times rejoined shard of Azem would cease to exist. This is how I feel the WoL is able to come to terms with it. Because in changing the course of their own timeline, they would, in fact, be destroying everything they hold dear and making their struggle against Hades and the other Ascians entirely in vain. The game shows us that history cannot be changed. Only the future.

[@durantes]

@@ulibarriL Averting the Final Days wouldn't alter anything for us. It would split into a new timeline, as discussed. So, any change made would have no effect on us. I specifically talk about that. That isn't about us changing our history. It's about Venat changing her people's futures. Our current state as 'eight times rejoined' will not be undone following the rules they established. Rules they constantly ignored... And probably will again in the future. FML

[@ulibarriL]

@durantes In order to avert the End of Days, the WoL would have to be like G'raha and remain in the past on an alternate timeline. This is what the ShB MSQ does not touch up on because by averting the Eight Umbral calamity, it alters the entire history, or rather, a preordained future as he knows it. The stories he tells the WoL, the people he knew, and the places he visited will never happen. They only exist on his own timeline. For the WoL, because they go back so far into the past and change a pivotal moment in history on a much grander scale. The repercussions and consequences are far more severe. All the civilizations, flora and fauna, and histories that take place on each reflection will never happen on the alternate timeline, and there is no way to return the current timeline without leaving everything intact. When Venat tells us things might be different when we return to our own time. I was like, "Ummm. No. They won't. Otherwise, I will not have truly returned to my original timeline." Where things get even more interesting that bakes my noodle when thinking about G'raha's time travel vs. ours is that G'raha does not alter events in such a way that prevents his birth, so he is still able to exist outside the flow of time. This would not be the case with the WoL, which you did bring up when you talked about the grandfather paradox. By averting the EoD, Azem's soul is never sundered, which means the WoL is never born on the source. But this can't happen because Fandaniel is the catalyst for everything. Because his actions result in our creation and, ultimately, his destruction, there is no timeline that can exist where both the WOL and EoD are not on it. Oh, and FTR, I understand completely why this frustrates you. But in the writer's defense, this is exactly why time travel should not be used. It almost always creates more issues than they solve.

[@theegocollective2695]

Also if the ancients can't sense or use dynamis how did Elidibus get four limit bars in Seat of Sacrifice? I'm seriously asking.

[@RicardoSantos-oz3uj]

Elidibus is the hearth of Zordiark and as such the only limits he has is in his character. He could have destroyed the WoL if he wished but he was too much of a hero to do so that way.

[@shawnscouten5184]

@@RicardoSantos-oz3ujUnlikely, given he legitimately would have killed us without Emet’s intervention. I would assume that the heart of Zodiark would be weaker outside of Zodiark, and the reason he is fighting us in the first place is his sudden memory loss. At least that would be my explanation. He might not want to kill us, but he certainly would not hesitate to do so.

[@lolcat5303]

@@shawnscouten5184 Well, his reason is that he is fighting to restore his people as the last of the unsundered. He tolerated the memory loss to make that easier but his entire personality is paralleled to G'raha's and to Ardbert's, so he is not the kind of guy who would ever give up on the ancients. I don't think those memories would've made a difference there. IMO, he would've done as he did even if he did remember Azem because his duties carry more weight. Regarding his ability to use limit breaks there, the ancients can use them (e.g. in Ktisis Hyperboreia) and they are still explained as aetheric phenomena in EE3, so in light of what Endsinger says, I think they can be fuelled either by dynamis or aether. With that said, Elidibus no longer has a body in the usual sense (in Japanese Hermes places greater stress on the density of their corporeal aether as why they can't easily interact with dynamis.) He is a disembodied ancient soul with primal characteristics, and the game draws an association between prayer and dynamis, so it is very possible in that form he is (unknowingly) fuelling the LB4s with it through the power of prayer he's drawing on. Hermes wouldn't have accounted for this scenario in Elpis, and neither would Venat before ending her people, so it's another possible workaround.

[@smartalec2001]

It's something from The Hero with a Thousand Faces that the villain of every story is the 'dragon of the past', the tyrant that wants to keep the world forever within their grasp. They think of themselves as working for the greater good, but are actually out to make themselves as important and powerful as possible. Letting them win means the world stays in the dark. The WoL is on the monomyth, and for most of the story, the Ascians are their dragon, the keepers of the past. There's another stage in the journey, the meeting with the Goddess, in which the hero meets a powerful female figure with whom they bond, and are inspired by. They are the hero's anima, their spiritual side. Venat/Hydaelyn is that. And she represents the antithesis of the Ascians. Where they grasped the world to restore the past, she broke the world to ensure the future. In the journey, the hero is not complete without the goddess. But, neither is the goddess is complete without the hero. The goddess is not the hero. Venat knows it, and is not proud of what she did, she says as much. The world fell into despair, and Astral Darkness was invoked - and then Umbral Light *had* to oppose it. This could not be any other way. It is simply what Light and Darkness do. That fundamental interaction goes beyond character motivations; the paths of these people-becoming-gods were locked in place as soon as the story began. The world is out of balance, because of it. The fight between Light and Dark is the source of all the woes of the world, and it should not be. That's why Venat is not proud. But neither Light or Dark can heal the divide. The point of the WoL's hero's journey is to synthesise both sides of the equation, restore the balance, and become the master of these two worlds. And they do. "For those we have lost, for those we can yet save" - that phrase guides the WoL and the Scions, and it also contains the mission statements of both the Ascians/the Dark ('For those we have lost') and Hydaelyn/the Light ('For those we can yet save'). And by enacting that philosophy, they restore the balance between Light and Dark again. That's why they're the 'warrior of light'. Not light as a cosmological force, but simply, hope; the light side of Dynamis, and the soul. Hydaelyn knows it so fundamentally, that she's content to be killed by the WoL. She has faith they'll do better than she, because they are more complete than she. Emet, too, has that same faith in them, and leaves them his legacy. Focusing on Venat being a killer is... like the same thought as Luke Skywalker being a mass murderer from blowing up the Death Star. It's true, if you want to think about it that way, but I think you can get hung up on details. That's not the story that's being told.

[@lolcat5303]

But it's not a 'detail'. The story, in very strong terms, tries to present this as 'necessary'. The story is making very strong claims about the nature of happiness and suffering, to the point it is passing off a genocide of a people as a necessity, and one it is too afraid to really have the protagonists meaningfully question - the Omega quest (a side quest, at that) notwithstanding, and even then in very tepid terms. The 'detail' in question is foundational to this entire setting. >Focusing on Venat being a killer is... like the same thought as Luke Skywalker being a mass murderer from blowing up the Death Star. It's true, if you want to think about it that way, but I think you can get hung up on details. That's not the story that's being told. Doesn't really work when the writers went to pains to humanise the ancients, even having you go back in the past to interact with them, and empathise with the tragedy that befell them, only to try spring the notion that they were some manner of 'dead end', epitomised in the strawman confrontation between Venat and the grieving ancients. The writers can intend to convey whatever point they want but they cannot bypass what the story is in effect saying to the audience through its details, whether they like it or not. So it doesn't matter what "story" is being told for the purpose of these criticisms. I think most understand this is not necessarily what the writers were trying to say (hence the Omega quest walks back some of the more unfortunate implications of EW), but again, it does not matter one whit, and it is worsened by the fact that your character goes back even after the events are a fait accompli, re-visiting Panda several times. >But, neither is the goddess is complete without the hero. The goddess is not the hero. Venat knows it, and is not proud of what she did, she says as much. The world fell into despair, and Astral Darkness was invoked - and then Umbral Light had to oppose it. This could not be any other way. It is simply what Light and Darkness do. That fundamental interaction goes beyond character motivations; You're abstracting this to a degree that the story really cannot support through its lore. The "umbral light" didn't "have" to oppose anything. It certainly could be another way, and neither Venat nor Zodiark's summoners were cosmic forces incapable of reasoning or changing their minds. We know she intentionally withheld a lot of information. Whatever allegory there is, it does not jive with the way the story is actually presenting things, even if the writers would like it to be read this way. Allegory isn't going to come to the rescue here. We're not dealing with actual cosmic forces here but individuals with agency and, on that basis, the criticism being presented is perfectly reasonable. >the paths of these people-becoming-gods were locked in place as soon as the story began. If you want to read it as some work of purely fatalistic determinism, sure. Not even Yoshi would commit to this. >Focusing on Venat being a killer is... like the same thought as Luke Skywalker being a mass murderer from blowing up the Death Star. I think this is a very disingenuous comparison, since that was a retaliation in response to military action. Here we are talking about dooming an entire civilisation with no idea what was about to hit it... because it was kept from them. To me, the story as told is just an exquisite example of utter hypocrisy and protagonist-centric morality. What 'monomyths' can be read into it are of secondary importance, if any at all.

[@smartalec2001]

@@lolcat5303 Rather than write an exegesis of your reply, I would like to boil it down to two of your sentences, because I think they are what we're talking about here. And those two are, 'The "umbral light" didn't "have" to oppose anything. It certainly could be another way.' I must disagree there; I think that when out of balance, that is exactly what their relationship is. FF14's story is a Daoist fable, in which mechanistic science, authoritarianism and aggressive exploitation of the natural world are the true evils, and a return to nature and freedom from strict government is always the path to harmony. And the conflict of the story stems from the two most fundamental forces, the yin and yang of the FF14 cosmology, in direct conflict with one another where they should simply be in transformation and contrast. The Ancients, in Daoist terms, are a civilisation that no longer understands the proper way of things. They are spiritually empty, and see themselves apart from the natural world rather than a part of it. Elpis is an excellent symbol of their society: it's an artificial floating island, heavily curated and above everything. It's very similar to the Allagans, and Azys La. And when faced with ultimate crisis, the Convocation push their world out of balance by bringing darkness forth and empowering it with sacrifice, to shield the world. That was the only choice they were capable of makinh, because of who and what they were, and how they thought. Now, Venat is as much a product of Ancient society as any of them. She has a love for the natural world, and yearns for a more natural connection to it, but she doesn't quite have that. As a result, she has only one choice, because of who and what she is; which is to pit the light against the dark, and eventually split Zodiark apart - and the world with him - in desperation, to keep the dark in check. That's the tragedy of their civilisation. They were incapable of saving themselves. Neither the best of them, or the worst of them, could do it. It's not until much, much later that it's even possible to heal that wound, and it has to come from someone new. This is also why Hydaelyn has to die, in Endwalker. She is as much a part of the imbalance as Zodiark was. If she remained, then darkness only rise against her again in some way. For life to flourish unimpeded, she has to go. And she's totally aware of that. So yes, i disagree that I am abstracting this story. Rather, I submit that I am facing it in the way that it's meant to be faced: as a fable, or a myth, rooted in Daoist beliefs. And I think, if you look at myths like conventional stories, you miss something in them. You can look at the fury of Achilles, or the arrogance of Beowulf, and you can say that Achilles shouldn't have been so angry, or Beowulf should have been more humble. And yes, it's true that if they did so, there might not have been a tragedy. But if we do that - then what's the point? We're listening to the tragedy of the fury of Achilles, and how it doomed him! If you take that out, there's nothing left. There is no Achilles, no story. The idea of abstracting the myth from the story spoils it, I think.

[@lolcat5303]

@@smartalec2001I don't really agree with your interpretation of the ancients at all. It is very reductionist in how it is trying to flatten them down to fit a 'theme', and while I don't disagree that EW MSQ itself attempted this, the problem for the writers is that they also wrote about it in many other places (including in EW itself, and especially the side quests and EE3), pushing against this caricature view of the ancients. We could in the same vein cast the same, if not worse, judgements of the sundered as a whole, which you for some reason limit to the Allagans, as if the current city-states wouldn't all play such a role on such a viewpoint... but of course they're afforded the chance to 'do better'. Sharlayan even has direct 1:1 references to Amaurot, and where it is castigated sometimes in the story, I'd note Amaurot took the exact opposite approach it does. This is precisely what I am getting at with the story's hope that you view the ancients as some 'dead end', even as UT later tries to show hope could be rekindled even for those artificial dynamis recreations ... just not the horrid ancients. All to pigeonhole them as having succumbed to the 'true evils' of the story's theme, nevermind all the lore pushing against such an interpretation of the ancients. Like I said - this doesn't work after SHB and even EW try at various points to humanise them, and with the messages SHB itself pushed. >And when faced with ultimate crisis, the Convocation push their world out of balance by bringing darkness forth and empowering it with sacrifice, to shield the world. That was the only choice they were capable of makinh, because of who and what they were, and how they thought. That's certainly an "interpretation" of it. Not one that makes a lot of sense, mind you. The Convocation did not "push their world out of balance" for no reason. It did so because the world was atrophied through the onslaught of dynamis weakening the celestial currents. Darkness was specifically chosen because of its astral, i.e. active, nature to reinforce the planet's defences. The ancients did not know the true cause of the situation and, as per EE3, had exhausted all other methods of trying to deal with this. Sacrifice was their last resort because the planet had been desiccated and had no other available sources of aether. Venat had all the knowledge at her disposal to prevent them from going down this path, by the by. She is not merely driven by 'desperation' but by asymmetric knowledge she refuses to share. It's telling to me that you act as if there was not some massive thing already throwing their world out of balance - indeed, killing it - that the Convocation sought to combat. >They were incapable of saving themselves. Neither the best of them, or the worst of them, could do it. It's not until much, much later that it's even possible to heal that wound, and it has to come from someone new. Yes, I'm afraid I consider this to be nonsense as well. They did manage to halt the Final Days, for starters, and restore the star. A certain someone concealing the truth of the situation prevented them from dealing with the root cause of the issue, and also led to a schism on false pretences - ones she exploited to buy herself time to summon Hydaelyn. But for a symptomatic solution? Zodiark worked very well and is the only reason the star even survived. EE3 even mentions that the apocalypse could be read as awakening them to a new perspective. Meanwhile Yoshi insists Venat believed that they "couldn't change". Being charitable, I'd suggest her belief was flawed. >because of who and what she is It's almost like you're treating her as some rock rolling down a hill with no capability for agency. >This is also why Hydaelyn has to die, in Endwalker. She is as much a part of the imbalance as Zodiark was. If she remained, then darkness only rise against her again in some way. For life to flourish unimpeded, she has to go. And she's totally aware of that. She helped directly engineer their demise and to permanently damage the star, in a way it itself seeks to undo, but it's nice that she decided she has to go on her own terms after the mess she helped ensure came to pass - and helped render somewhat permanent through the Twelve and now the prayer box left in their stead. >So yes, i disagree that I am abstracting this story. But you are. You are having to take quite a reductionist view of the ancients to jam them into the shape that your interpretation requires and ignore any story details that push against it. Everything has to be reduced to some mythological symbolism to re-cast the story in terms you find more palatable. Meanwhile the actual ancients, in all their fullness as characters, with all their nuances and dimensions? Gone, reduced to the angry old man elezen face strawman the game so loves for crystal mommy to yasskween to oblivion. Disagree all you like, but it is what I have seen you and many others try to do to distract from how the story pushes its point, i.e. demonising an entire civlisation by writing it off as a 'dead end', denying that it had any capability to change (even as texts like EE3 support the opposite view) and pushing the reading that this meant a genocide was the only way for the situation to resolve. > You can look at the fury of Achilles, or the arrogance of Beowulf, and you can say that Achilles shouldn't have been so angry, or Beowulf should have been more humble. None of it matters. The issue here is how the story goes about it. Trying to paint an entire civilisation in such broad strokes, especially in the aftermath of a huge tragedy, is not really a very great message to be pushing, and it is one SHB repudiates, i.e. the notion that the sundered were undeserving of existence for all their many flaws and sins. So I reject such an interpretation being applied to the ancients as well, yes. You say they were incapable of saving themselves - and I say that Venat, as a person, through her decisions, is the one who sealed that damnation. Those decisions are what are being criticised, as well as what the story is pushing in service of its 'themes'. Not to mention parts of Elpis has the characters acting completely out of character to ensure the plot progresses as it does, in addition to all the plot devices it is pulling left right and centre, like Kairos. >But if we do that - then what's the point? We're listening to the tragedy of the fury of Achilles, and how it doomed him! If you take that out, there's nothing left. There is no Achilles, no story. The idea of abstracting the myth from the story spoils it, I think. I feel this is all a very long-winded way to say: the writers chose to cast them in this way, just accept it. But the writers are open to criticism in both the point they are trying to make and how they go about making it. They did so clumsily here, and so have been criticised for it. Whatever 'daoist fable' they are trying to execute. If the writers themselves even know.

[@smartalec2001]

@@lolcat5303 To focus on a single set of sentences again: "Meanwhile Yoshi insists Venat believed that they "couldn't change". Being charitable, I'd suggest her belief was flawed." I'm not quite sure how that is being charitable... surely if anyone knows the truth of that, Yoshi would. Isn't saying that he might be wrong being rather uncharitable?

[@SirVyre]

@@smartalec2001 FFXIV isn't a Daoist fable. Not even close. The good guys often turn to methods unnatural or scientific in the extreme in order to save the day. There is no Yin and Yang or balancing towards "The Way." In fact, Shadowbringers plot revolves around an action taken by a future, alternate timeline in defiance of cosmic order to turn back the clock and unwrite events. The Ascians didn't live above nature either. It was a strong belief held by the majority of their society that they choose to die in order to sustain the planet itself and all of nature's splendor. While it's true that they proclaimed themselves nature's steward, and that does take some amount of hubris, it was actually the fault of Ascians who did not hold to their societal beliefs that ruined the world. Once with Hermes and once with Venat. When it comes to their solution for their crisis... The crisis to them was a mystery, because it came from a place beyond their understanding. They were in the dark groping for a an answer, and that answer was also in the dark. It didn't have to be. Venat could have lit the way, but she's more or less the gnostic Sophia and selfishly chose not too. The psychopathy of Venat does not make for a very compelling myth. Especially given the mythic proportions of her people. They made a blueprint for divinity. And then were able to make god, twice. The tragedy here is closer to the Garden of Eden. Where paradise ends because of the selfish desires of individuals wanting to be gods on purpose. Hermes wanted to escape death, for it caused him restless, unending despair. Venat wanted to escape her fear of stagnant perfection. Athena wanted to truly place herself above the entire planet and make each and every person equal to a god. These three all have a common link in that they believe their beliefs to be superior to their fellow man. Ironically, each of them requiring their fellow man as stepping stones to achieve praxis. Hermes has help in creating his first Meteia. Venat had to steal the god creation ritual from the Convocation. Athena needed all of Pandaemonium and Lahabrea's love and her son's body. Zodiark on the other hand was mankind united and sustained, and he could have solved their problem if their problem was made known to them. The story of FFXIV beyond them with the WOL requires that they all die, because WoL exists as a direct result of their death. Venat has to die too, so that the Sundered can truly inherit the world. It is, in truth, very grim. And it can't be viewed as a mythopoetic event, because we know too many of the dynamics and specifics on the causal chain surrounding it. Along with the fact that Ancient Ascians were people, first and foremost, and the tragedy is that they did not deserve their fate.

[@ballisticsdummy7331]

I'm still digesting what the video is saying, so bear with me. I enjoyed EW for the most part. (Biggest things that bugged me was the reason given for fighting Venat being 'a surplus specifically to fight', and most of the hermes v2,3.. shit but I digress) I can't really argue ShB time divergence, that one's kinda a big one as it doesn't follow the other ones that are closed loops. As well as the loporits being ineffective. But one thing I did wanna touch on was the WoL 'not doing anything in Elpis after learning of Metion'. If we go with the idea that the WoL stays there and, for sake of argument, manages to help and convince the Ascians to fight off Metion somehow, we would be giving up literally everything we know because why the hell would Ascians agree to a sundering at that point? And even if they for some reason did, our world would still be gone as any 'future' we would 'return' to would be the divergent one meaning we've no fucking clue what we would find, and in our OG timeline we left, we just fucked off and left everyone to die. Venat, from my understanding, saw the WoL as living proof of our claims for a multitude of factors, and Metion's report of the civilizations leading to dead ends, especially the paradise one I think it was, struck her as relative as the Ascians followed those same patterns as shown in the sundering scene. Which she saw as validation of how the ascians wouldn't change. The 'idea' for the story here is that Venat wasn't/wouldn't be able to change people's minds on why they should do something else. A plot hole of sorts being that the WoL could stay as a means of 'proof' but that would essentially force the player to stay in Elpis until the ascians change their mind. Which meta wise isn't really feasibly logistical to do. Not even accounting for the divergent timeline problems from doing so. Also, bit of a divergent thought but, the events in Elpis would essentially play out the same way they normally would regardless of our involvement (save for the sundering I believe) because Metion's report is a scheduled thing, Hades and Hythlo were going to Elpis and staying anyway, Hermes's desire to listen to the report would be the same, and Khiron's memory wipe would happen as it does as a result, with the potential change being if Venat stayed/left in the dungeon considering she was trying to save us from it as a major factor for fleeing. Essentially leading to the result (from my personal perspective) that the most significant change from us going to Elpis is causing a time loop by ensuring the sundering by granting its inception in Venat's head as an option as everything else would have happened the same.

[@lolcat5303]

>Which she saw as validation of how the ascians wouldn't change. That's certainly what the story wants you to believe, that the strawmen arguing against all-knowing mommy are just hopeless dead ends, and so is she really killing anyone? (Yes, she is.) Then you reflect on what we actually knew of the ancients (inquisitive people who revelled at the possibility of a new problem to solve... that they managed to salvage their planet after its near destruction is something no other world consumed by the Meteia or any other 'dead end' had done, much less the sundered who piggybacked off the sacrifices of the ancients), and you see EE3 state that one reason behind the Schism between the factions can be interpreted as the ancients having come to a new perspective following the Final Days (=changing), and it's like, what are you even on about, Yoshi? Make your minds up. It is weak, defeatist logic on Venat's part and not logic the story would ever condone for the sundered as an excuse to wipe them out. >The 'idea' for the story here is that Venat wasn't/wouldn't be able to change people's minds on why they should do something else. That'd require her actually telling the truth. Spouting moronic, tone-deaf platitudes to a people grieving the near-death of their civilisation is not convincing. >Which meta wise isn't really feasibly logistical to do. Then don't write it this way. >And even if they for some reason did, our world would still be gone as any 'future' we would 'return' to would be the divergent one meaning we've no fucking clue what we would find, and in our OG timeline we left, we just fucked off and left everyone to die. Yeah, until Yoshi decides the 8UC timeline would make for a cool expansion and it becomes possible to venture there. He's already stated the game's world is a 'multiverse' with AUs spawning from any number of possible events. It's only a matter of time until a trip to the 8UC is due. So all of this is at writers' discretion and is ultimately a non issue. Again, if it causes 'logistical issues', do not write yourselves into a corner where the only way forward is trying to excuse a genocide the game would not condone under any circumstances for the protagonists' people.

[@MaikeruX989]

6:10 A somewhat harsh assumption. We don’t get to see the rest of her preparations, even though she said she’s going to make them. Perhaps she “Did nothing else”, as you say. Perhaps she did a great deal. We weren’t shown, so we don’t know. At least, not yet.

[@durantes]

Perhaps. When we meet her again in the aetherial sea, she mentions her many failures. But the game, nor any post EW content has really explained the meaning of this. And considering they clearly want to move on from the Hydaelyn storyline, it's unlikely we'll get any answers.

[@lolcat5303]

@@durantes Yeah, plus if, as Yoshi said, she can be read as maintaining timeline consistency, I doubt she would've done all that much that would endanger that. One thing to note is the WoL offered her an abridged version of events (and would have to have done so, given that they themselves have gaps in their knowledge and only so much time to speak to her.) This underscores why the notion of maintaining consistency over such a timeframe, with so little knowledge, is absurd, but anyhoo... What I think she's getting to by her "failures" is the fact that she may not necessarily have known all the details e.g. about when a given Rejoining will hit, but it's hard to parse if this is what she means. At the end of the day we have to go with what we're shown and what her aims were and those don't really suggest much in the way of deviating from history as she was told it.

[@WaterLockser]

@@durantes You won't meet her again in the aetherial sea. When Hydaelyn faded that was her fading in body and soul. there is nothing left of her to go into the aetherial sea

[@MaikeruX989]

8:35 Two observations here: 1. The WoL must NOT put themselves at any further risk at this point, or the knowledge they’ve gained to fight Meteion will be lost, and that entire timeline doomed. Venat realized this, and insists WoL go home. Kudos to her for this. 2. While it is true that Venat could decide to veer off from the WoL’s version of the future, you have to understand what’s at stake. Despite the sheer horror of the Final Days, and the countless deaths she will ultimately cause over 12k years by doing the Sundering, she knows that humanity will still exist in 12k years if she doesn’t veer off. There is absolutely no guarantee of success if she does anything to prevent the advent of the WoL in the future, so Venat ultimately decides not to chance it. I’m not saying I agree with her choice, but I will say I don’t envy her, for the position she’s in where she must choose.

[@lolcat5303]

>she knows that humanity will still exist in 12k years if she doesn’t veer off. Yes, after she genocided her people to birth said 'humanity'. >There is absolutely no guarantee of success if she does anything to prevent the advent of the WoL in the future, so Venat ultimately decides not to chance it. There's no guarantee of success regardless. If we assume that any number of things can cause the timeline to veer off course, especially with the necessarily limited catalogue of info the WoL has provided her, she has 12k years to ensure not a single butterfly effect arises across 14 worlds. The story is asking you to believe that either the setting is fatalistically pre-determined (Yoshi has never committed to this and does not categorically posit it to be the case, especially since he offers an alternative interpretation and has later referred to the setting as a 'multiverse' with AUs spawning from any number of events) or that this went through without a hitch and you just need to bELIEVE. Not like I've got much of a choice but it sure does strain credulity... She only knew that mankind had persisted up to the point you came from. All of the particulars about how Meteion would be dealt with came after. Bear in mind, Nidhana even admits she has no idea how to put dynamis to any practical use or application and Ultima Thule is a complete mystery in terms of how to navigate it. Her entire plan could've potentially collapsed if Zenos had not come along or if Fandaniel or even Emet regained their memory sooner. Or if the dragons or Omega never landed on the planet or were wiped out more effectively. Or if Alexander had never been summoned. Or if the sundered continued being swarmed and consumed by Endsinger at a faster pace. Or if Zodiark's shield, being thinned, gave way at a sooner point, especially since Yoshi stated the amount of energy she imbued into the Sundering was not something she could precisely control. And so on and so on. What she is, however, guaranteeing is the end of her people, and then she also sets Emet free, presumably so the Rejoinings can proceed apace, as this is a necessary component of any plan that involves ensuring adherence to the timeline she was informed of. I don't think anyone is going to say her choice was enviable but that alone does not wall her off from criticism...

[@MaikeruX989]

@@lolcat5303 All completely valid points to consider, and in no way, shape, or form is Venat to be ‘walled off from criticism’. If the WoL, as the rightful successor to the seat of Azem, is ever forced in the MSQ to make a comparable decision as Venat did, hopefully WoL will do better. It just seems like Venat is getting a ton of criticism, and I’m eager to defend her. I’m not confident I could have done any better if I had to do what she did.

[@lolcat5303]

@@MaikeruX989 It also seems like she gets a ton of praise and deflection, both from the fandom and the story. I can count on two hands how many critical videos (by unique content creator) there are of her btw, and not all focus on her so much as EW. Meanwhile there's many more, e.g. of the type wailing about how PEAK it was that she girlbossed those ancient strawmen into oblivion. I'm sure her reputation will do fine, with or without anyone defending her given this community's zealous attachment to her.

[@shawnscouten5184]

@@lolcat5303I’d be curious to hear about what those videos are. I only know about Echoes of Etheirys and this one so far.

[@lolcat5303]

@@shawnscouten5184 I don't even remember off the top of my head. Just that there were a few more outside of these two channels. But yeah that underscores in itself how few there are.

[@josephgregorowicz5135]

8:40 - What do you mean "No Damage Done?"? When G'raha was sent back in time to the First, as you said, the 8th calamity timeline still existed. They need to exist to send him back. They knew this and did so anyway, because ti would bring salvation, if not to them, then those of the alternate timeline. If anyone from that timeline lives on, it is from the knowledge and hope that they did what they could, as that is what bostered our ability to overcome despair. But in the end, it did sentence them to their miserable existence for all eternity. For all we know, Meteion ended the universe soon after the final rejoining there. That said, here is the difference between what G'raha did and what Venat did. The people in the 8th calamity timeline CHOSE to send him back with the intent of changing history, knowing full well they would not see or prosper from it. That they would need to continue their dreadful existence to ensure it didnt cause a paradox. Alternatively, we are sent back with the help of Elidibus in a similar manner, being told we cannot effect meaningful change. WHY? Because changing things would doom our current timeline to a similar fate. THIS is the conclusion Venat came to. We can't change the past, only work for the future. So she took the knowledge we gave her, as part of the potential paradox, and instead of condemning the current timeline to death or worse, went above and beyond, so far as to ensuring the same misery and plague occurs in order to maintain everything to happen as it did before. THAT is a hell of an undertaking, even for a god. It is the one and only explanation for her to not do anything else. And it was only after trying to get Fandaniel to work out the issue of DYnamis, or for Azem to support her when informing them, she came to the sad conclusion that there was no alternative. She said as much herself when she ponders why she would do the things she did, become Hydaelyn, and commit ot the path we said she followed. She followed it for a reason, and she came to the conclusion that it was a self-fulfilling prophecy, and a road she was forced to walk to maintin the status quo and ensure the paradox didnt cause their teimeline to end.

[@shawnscouten5184]

The devs themselves confirmed that the 8th umbral calamity timeline lived. And you absolutely can change the past if that past is currently your present. And again, that still doesn’t explain what reason Venat would have to sacrifice her entire species to save a race that from her perspective, was about to get wiped out anyway. Edit: also, side note, but given that Zodiark was the shield blocking meteon, the final rejoining would have likely made Zodiark stronger, buying them more time to defend against meteon. They would still probably be screwed given Elidibus’s memory loss making it somewhat difficult to free the trapped ancients in zodiark, but they did have a decent amount of time, Zodiark wasn’t showing any signs of weakening, even in his sundered form.

[@echoesofetheirys]

I recommend reading the Tales from the Shadows short stories because not everyone in the 8UC was on board with the Ironworks' plan. In fact, they had to rebrand their goal in order for people to start coming around because the risk was that their entire existence would be erased for a timeline they'd never see that had no guarantee of successfully averting the 8UC.

[@zarthes]

I think Venat's flaws are a symptome of the Ancient's flaws as well, we saw how uncaring for life in a lot of ways the ancients were with their godlike creation ability hence Hermes' depression, hence Venat's plan being flawed but ultimately a better idea, 'bringing the gods low' to be more human and actually empathetic, that's not to say I disagree with most of your point. Also your final point missed the mark, the Endsinger didn't kill most of those civilizations they themselves did, remember Meteon's fall to becoming the big emo bird was a result of witnessing the collective depressive suicide of thousands of worlds with her sisters, sure she might have brough more to ruin but every single one we saw at Ultima Thule was them killing themselves and we saw their shades from a combinations of Meteon's memories and Dynamis.

[@alexwebber6663]

To you 1st point I would agree but we have seen them employ the scientific method all the time in Elpis so how exactly did Venat arrive at this conclusion with no prior knowledge due to a lack of testing? Venat is pragmatic and rebellious is it really within her character to cave into fate so easily? Especially as was demonstrated in this video Hades proved Venat's theory wrong. To your 2nd point. You are not wrong as it was this extremely shallow observation that led to Meteion's abrupt conclusion. Durantes isn't wrong to say the Endsinger went on to destroy many other worlds and we didn't even get to see how many others were destroyed due to this conclusion. Ultimately all these problems with the plot are due to the limitations of trying to tie up too many plot threads within a single patch leading to shallow writing with quick solutions.

[@lolcat5303]

Their attitudes on such lifeforms varied as much as did the sundered. Do the sidequests in Elpis. There is a variety of attitudes to their creations, many of which do actually care for them and you even have one of the researchers going to pains to empathise with the WoL as a rather peculiar familiar. Hermes's depression is more the result of him being incapable to grapple with death. He saw a lot of it where he worked, because it is a facility researching how to increase their star's biodiversity. The ancients were not 'uncaring' for life but believed each life had its place and role to play. You can disagree with that but it is their perspective, and really the sundered do much the same, e.g. we see this in Azys Lla (albeit with more reckless abandon), in Eureka and in Labyrinthos, and those aren't even the examples where they kill lesser lifeforms for pleasure (e.g. the Colisseum) or for other uses, such as food. You may even be visiting Elpis with an anima weapon forged out of the remnants of souls and with a little voidsent soul muncher in toe. I mean it's a rather sick joke to try claim the sundered are more empathetic than the ancients, because I can provide you with a litany of counter-examples here, not least of which one from our first foray in the void, where a voidsent recounts being summoned into a mortal host just so it could be tortured for funzies, and that's notwithstanding the fact that the sundered engage in war and conflict pretty wantonly. Where is the 'empathy' in this? Or did the WoL just forget to mention all this to Venat? Or was it never really the point at all? I guess they're "actually empathetic" in the sense that a torturer might know what buttons to push to make his victims squeal. > 'bringing the gods low' to be more human and actually empathetic, that's not to say I disagree with most of your point. This is absolutely not her plan. Not once did she state it this way and not once do the authors state it this way. The idea that this was about empathy is player headcanon because they are taking the pretext for Hermes's emotional tantrums and confusing it with the actual cause (=inability to understand how life could have meaning or worth given the reality of death.) Bear in mind, as Fandaniel, he states nothing he saw in sundered man had altered his desire to destroy everything. But empathy has little to do with Venat's own reasoning in any case, which is all built around her own particular ideas on 'strength'. Her actual plan is predicated on the belief that 'suffering' is essential to avoid going down the path of the Nibirun (a civilisation she had heard more or less 2 lines from a report about), and also the belief that because the ancients could not directly interact with dynamis, that they had to be reduced aetherically to do so (completely ignoring the prospect of workarounds here, such as creating entelechies and soul merging with them ala the hemitheos project.) Hence, she reduces man's state to force upon them all manner of suffering, ignoring the fact that suffering in this way can psychologically break a person instead of toughening them up. Even Hermes, in his short story, does not see in the WoL someone kind. Here is what the story says: "What Hermes had glimpsed in his gentle countenance was neither kindness nor forbearance, but strength. And that strength had allowed him to overcome innumerable hardships." You will note that Venat herself also does not remark on the sundered's "kindness", but on their supposed "strength" from the recollection the WoL gives her. At the same time, she's getting a very abridged version of events. What is happening here is Venat engaging in a massive amount of confirmation bias, all on the basis of one single instance, an instance no less connected to a very strong ancient soul known as Azem. Her plan is all predicated on one singular individual being uplifted in this way and totally ignores the prospect of unplanned forms of suffering potentially breaking one's will - a theme the Beyond the Rift questline explores when it reflects on the fact that existential despair took both the strong and the weaker willed amongst the sundered, hence this was not truly the deciding factor. An acknowledgement of sorts by the writers that they had to correct the unpleasant implications of EW's narrative a bit. Regarding the Meteia, they did do a bit of pushing of their own by incessantly pestering some of these civilisations to the point that they induced existential despair, e.g. with the Nibirun. After the point that they became emo birds, it was their explicit plan to destroy the universe and hasten its heat death and we know from Hildibrand of a civilisation perishing thanks to the Endsinger. So it wasn't just the Dead End strawmen civilisations that reached an end. If we want to justify a civilisation's annihilation based on their flaws, the sundered would be kaput many times over... and we could pick any one of the Dead Ends remaining a threat to them based on their tendencies. Even the Nibirun began as mortals and share with the sundered many tendencies. The channel's creator mentioned another channel called Echoes of Etheirys, which has done a series of videos covering these topics. I would suggest you consult them.

[@zarthes]

@@lolcat5303 You make a fair point, its been a few years and I don't 100% remember some of the side quests and other NPCs perspectives.

[@lolcat5303]

@@zarthes Yes, no worries. I am mostly highlighting this because it was the perspective many people came out of EW with and I think the story deliberately misled people in some ways by shoving a lot of this stuff into sidequests and source material like the short stories or EE3, which is out of the game. I don't think the writing team really had a clear concept of how to handle the story.

[@zarthes]

@@lolcat5303 I went into EW with 'Faith in Hydaenlyn' on the brain because I saw an immense amount of the community going "Were gonna fight Hydaelyn! She tempered us!" and I at the time got tired of the JRPG trope of lets fight god because it too is bad. So I justified in my head that the Ancients were surrogates for ancient and uncaring gods. When I forget that there is a whole planet and we just know of the creation facility and Amaurot, which is a small scope compared.

[@CuppaGi]

Some counterpoints around the time travel. 1. Venat, and us (the WoL) aren't aware of how Time Travel works. We have theories, which is why Venat says we may find our future altered, only for us to... not find that. We know G'raha was able to change history, but he never went back to his future. We have no idea if his future changed, or if it stayed the same. So we have no way of knowing whether or not altering the past will effect our time. The same would apply to Elidibus and the others, they don't fully understand time travel, and would prefer to be safe, not sorry. 2. G'raha travelled time AND Shards. While this may not seem important on the surface, what if this allowed him to essentially break the rules of time travel. Assuming the theory of consistency, we cannot change the past because the past already happened. If you tried to kill your grandfather in the past, you would ALWAYS fail, because he survived to have your parent. The events already took place, and clearly your Grandfather didn't die. So that means every attempt failed. So, tens of thousands of years ago, we actually appeared in Elpis. History was never changed. We really did appear back then, the events of Elpis took place. And it wouldn't be for eons that we'd come to exist and start the loop by travelling back in time. But G'raha didn't do this. He didn't travel to HIS past, he travelled to the past of another world. A world where time does not flow the same as it does on the source. This would essentially break the conventional laws of consistent time travel, assuming he can find a way to interact with us. He basically pulled us out of our timeline, causing a paradox.

[@lolcat5303]

But he's not wrong. While 1. is kinda true (although you could argue G'raha is implicitly aware at the very least and that alone could've served as a foundation for further inquiries... maybe it even will in future plotlines), Yoshi does say it's a possible interpretation of Venat that she acted deliberately so as to maintain the timeline, here from the 6.0 Q&A: "Q: I don’t really understand why the Warrior of Light messing around in Elpis didn’t create any alternate timelines. Can you explain what happened? A: First of all, we’ve left that part up to interpretation. With that said, my personal interpretation is that the past and present were always the part of the same timeline. Although there was still a possibility for the timelines to diverge, the Warrior of Light was unwittingly acting in accordance with Venat’s plans, which unified the past and present. Another interpretation might be that Venat worked really hard behind the scenes to ensure that the timeline wouldn’t go awry. Seeing how Argos took to us on our first meeting, I’d say that proves that the past and present were already unified." As can be seen, he is stating that there is the possibility that the timelines could diverge even in the stronger version of what he's saying about the timeline being the same, whereas with the latter he outright states she can be seen as preventing anything making the timeline go 'awry'. That'd be consistent with her trying to spare Emet, which would be a precondition of adhering to the version of the timeline the WoL gave her cliff notes for. Point two is a theory fans have as to why the timeline didn't diverge but then he could've answered the question in the 6.0 Q&A that way but chose not to. It also doesn't really hold up with what he's said in recent interviews, e.g. the one with Finaland: "The way we imagine space-time in FFXIV is what's known as the branch theory, i.e. there isn't just one timeline, but each time an event occurs, it splits into different branches. So the branch where the 8th Umbral Calamity took place, i.e. the poisoning of the Scions of the Seventh Dawn and the Warrior of Light, their death, the awakening of G'raha Tia in the Crystal Tower, who will return to the past with the Crystal Tower etc... This branch of space-time, it still exists and indeed it continues even after G'raha's departure. If we had to sum it up in a single word, it's a bit like the theory of the Multiverse. There's a story in Tales from the Shadows, after the 8th Calamity and after G'raha's departure, to show you that life somewhere continues on this version of the Source which is no longer ours, since the future has been changed. I think that, having sent G'raha Tia into the past, those who remained are still fighting to defend their future, and in this version of reality, Emet-Selch is surely their greatest foe, and they're facing unknown threats. Since the Warrior of Light is dead, no one can stop or kill him, so somewhat he's still alive there. " Again he could've chosen to differentiate the 8UC by virtue of what you mention but didn't. So I don't think it holds that that was the reason it had a divergence but in Elpis's case there wasn't and his answer to the 6.0 Q&A doesn't really support it much, either.

[@FuyuYuki92]

I think I get the time convergence thing. So, when we traveled back in time, technically we created a new timeline, since we already change events by simply being in elpis. Our connection to Venat and her actions/inaction then leads to our future, which is how the convergence is formed. Apart from that, the stakes between the black rose timeline and the elpis timeline are completely different. In the black rose timeline, there's nothing to lose, since there's only death and destruction to go back from, whereas in the elpis timeline, 14 new civilizations are born in the form of the source and its shards that are worth protecting. I think given what Venat learns together with us, the way she sees it is that the world unsundered has no future either way. The world unsundered strives to be a perfect paradise, and as we have learned from other civilizations, that approach has not been a successful one even without Meteion's influence. It's fair to criticize her for that, but I can see what thought process she might have undergone while weighing her options. Edit: Thinking about it, I wonder if us saving our future without the time convergence would even have been possible, since we got the blessing because of the time convergence, if I understand correclty? Hm.

[@alexwebber6663]

This is really good criticism of the video with fair points. I still think her lack of trying is not in line with Venat's personality considering she and the MC didn't really try alternative methods also her plan of running away was terrible. Still really good points though and I think it does make a lot of sense even if I don't personally agree with Venat but I don't think there was enough time in a single patch to explore this in a satisfactory way.

[@lolcat5303]

Yeah the problem is this is shot through with contradictions, e.g. EE3 mentioning the schism between her people potentially being due to them seeing a new perspective on matters, which contradicts her supposed rationale given by Yoshi that she believed they 'could not change'. Besides, what kind of prejudgement is that, even? I don't really accept the way the story positions any of the Dead Ends, and especially the ridiculous strawman that is the final one. It was magicked into existence to make her rather paranoid reaction seem rational, but to me it is not a very well thought out or realistic 'critique' of reaching paradise. I would watch the last couple of videos done by the Echoes of Etheirys channel the video author mentions, as it unravels a lot of these plot points. The story is not well constructed. >In the black rose timeline, there's nothing to lose, since there's only death and destruction to go back from, whereas in the elpis timeline, 14 new civilizations are born in the form of the source and its shards that are worth protecting. Yes, and one is sacrificed at the altar of this (even assuming it is a case of either/or, given the propensity for AUs to spawn in this setting...) The other problem is the sundered themselves will strive towards similar ideals to the ancients on long enough timelines. Indeed, the Nibirun were closer to them than the ancients, as they started out mortal. I'm afraid the story is asking me to believe that a mature civilisation that was already inured to living very long life spans, and focused on enquiry, the arts and debate, would suddenly just collapse because it... ran out of things to do? In a vast magical universe? I just don't find it compelling.

[@ballisticsdummy7331]

We would not exist without the time convergence. Literally, the WoL exists because of the sundering and that happens because of our timeloop to Elpis. If we didn't go back, Venat would likely have not known that sundering was an option.

[@MeltyVampire]

Okay the literal only issue I can think of is that you said this will only feature 6.0 spoilers but then you mention "living memory" at 14 minutes in and from what I google, that's a 7.0 spoiler. Please dont do this next time.

[@legend524]

Venat didn’t help us out since ARR. doesn’t she literally give us the strength to not die during our fights?

[@shawnscouten5184]

In the praetorium, sure. But everywhere else, that’s mostly due to the echo.

[@2210Scott]

HerMees did nothing wrong; then so did the phantom of the opera.....

[@RicardoSantos-oz3uj]

In the case of Thanos. He had the time stone. It wasn't a delusion. If he didn't do what he did that's what would have happened. He wasn't an evil guy but a guy that had to do evil things to prevent a greater evil. Is also possible that the ones that were removed are the ones that would have caused the burden. You just assume they were randomly chosen. However is one possible future. Which may or not been adverted. And given that Dr. Strange saw all the possible futures and found only one that would have have a different outcome. Thanos did what was needed to be done.

[@PaziPazzo]

(edit: grammar) didn't Thanos said that the snap would erase half the population in existence randomly? The whole time he talked about it was to have the death be the fairest judge, and takes no consideration with the person's rank in the world. I remember he talked about fairness of the erasure procedure, it'd be odd to assume he'd specifically choose ones that are less detrimental to the world's survival also why not just duplicate more resource if he has the ability to alter reality? If it's about teaching some sort of philosophies then it's no wonder people would oppose that when there are far less violent alternatives to be had, much like Venat's attitude toward Hermes/Meteion

[@Antiyoukai]

>Tfw my wol doesn't have a messiah complex so they don't have a problem with the ancients being gone Feels good to be buds with Zenos.

[@shawnscouten5184]

“To ignore the plight of those we could conceivably save is not wisdom, it is indolence” remember this line? We are supposed to be a hero, correct?

[@Antiyoukai]

@@shawnscouten5184 Saving them will doom us

[@shawnscouten5184]

@@Antiyoukaidid you not watch the video? The devs have canonically confirmed that the 8th umbral calamity timeline lived and just became a split timeline, so clearly using the crystal tower can change the past, and changing the past doesn’t erase the future. And even if that were true, venat has no reason to not try to save her people over a race that from her perspective, was about to die anyway, so she is still a pretty awful person regardless. She already acknowledges that it probably wasn’t a timeloop, and our actions in the past changed her decisions in endwalker, so it doesn’t work regardless.

[@MaikeruX989]

5:10 I have to respectfully disagree. ES and Hyth absolutely made a sacrifice, as there was no way to restore their memories prior to death. Venat would have to convince them to help her, without a shred of proof, to work against Fandaniel. Exceedingly difficult and risky.

[@durantes]

They have the Echo. Venat could have very easily revealed the truth through her own experiences. There's a lot of implications to that I plan to discuss in the near future.

[@MaikeruX989]

While I would counter that only Venat had demonstrated mastery of the Echo, and that she was able to help guide the WoL as WoL is her champion……..my own counter has a flaw. If she couldn’t share the Echo with other Ancients…….how did she convince her followers to summon Hydalin? So I concede that there are unanswered questions about how she convinced, and failed to convince, different Ancients.

[@omensoffate]

@@MaikeruX989the writing is just terrible

[@lolcat5303]

@@MaikeruX989 The ancients can explicitly share visions from their own memories (Panda shows this) and share in such experiences even. As Emet had said, the Convocation had methods of arriving at the truth and was practised in that. Provided she actually put herself forward for this, that is. That would then also help them realise both Emet and Hyth's memories need to be interrogated further to see if they could restore their memories somehow, without having to wait until they eventually pass away. We don't know that it would be an impossibility to restore their memories before death, because no such attempt was made, and in the end the way the Aetherial Sea does this is sort of like a massive aetheric washing machine, so it doesn't seem impossible to me to simulate such a process... At the end, it could well have been possible to explore such a method, had they the incentive to do so, but they could just rummage through Venat's own memories using the echo if need be. Bear in mind she had put a tag on Meteion and already had that as compelling evidence. >how did she convince her followers to summon Hydalin? Yes well we don't know the precise details of what they were told, only that she withheld some details. Her short story mentions some crystal of significance, but it may just be where she kept the coordinates.

[@Beathemighty]

Athena did it. It would okay make sense Venat being her foil Can do the same

[@FrankWest-py2se]

Thank you for reminding me why I didn't play the game with EN voices. Why does every woman sound either like they are trying to sound like Bubbles from the Powerpuff girls or a wine aunt in her 40s with a smoker's cough. Man, who was the voice director for this game?

[@4mb127]

Given how poorly the game is translated many of these could just be translation issues. I have many issues with your logic, understanding and claims, but presenting that would require at least 2 hours, so I shall digress. Suffice to say that the Venat storyline makes sense to me. You can't expect complete perfection. There are no glaring issues with it. As with nonexistence, people have difficulties in understanding causality. Free will is not binary, the question itself is a mirage. Yeah, time travel is mostly bullshit, but in this game it's so far internally consistent. If you want a weak point in the story, explain how Elidibus saw us at Elpis, and how it fits with the raid storyline.

[@lolcat5303]

Some of it is down to poor translation but nope, Japanese is consistent on the core points here. The 'localization' just worsens the base issues here. >You can't expect complete perfection. There are no glaring issues with it. rofl if you say so.

[@Roxnit]

I'm surprised no1 is pointing this out, but it wasn't Endwalker that broke the time travel rules of the ff14 universe, Shadowbringers did. The Alexander raid was the first instance of time travel, and that story line worked in the same loopy, self-fulfilling sort of way EW does. Shadowbringers is the one that introduced divergent timelines via Graha which contradicted the previously established time travel mechanism. Timetravel is already a contrived plot device, FF14 isnt exactly great at implementing it, but if we're gonna base a whole character analysis and judgements on its missuse then at least place the blame where it truly lies. :p The way I choose to read, with time travel being the mess that it is , is instead of just handwaving it away like the oversight it probably is, we could go with the headcanon that both forms of timetravel exist in this universe. That is, time either loops or diverges depending on how the people aware of it go with or against their "fate", and that Venat could choose to either play into the loop or go against it. Fact of the matter is, by the point she had a choice, the Final Days were going to happen either way. Meteion's Dynamis was a sort of kryptonite to the Ancients, and they were not equiped to go against it. Even had she tried to share all her knowledge of the future to prevent the final days or minimize the damage, they didnt have the tools to face Meteion proper. What allowed the WoL to stop the final days was the ability to combat Dynamis with Dynamis, which the ancients simply didnt have as an option due to what and who they were, and it was Venat playing into the timeloop with knowledge about the future that got her to the conclusion mankind needed to evolve to a different form via the circumstances she created to give our timeline a fighting chance, choosing the be the "bad guy" that sets humanity's suffering in motion via the sundering believing that the WoL will manage to truly save the world from Meteion.

[@lolcat5303]

> and that Venat could choose to either play into the loop or go against it. Well Yoshi more or less says as much when he says it's a valid interpretation of her actions that she acted so as to ensure the timeline did not deviate, so yep. She spared Emet, after all, and it's hard not to see why she'd do that if not to service that aim. >Even had she tried to share all her knowledge of the future to prevent the final days or minimize the damage, they didnt have the tools to face Meteion proper. But that's just not true. They lacked the ability to readily manipulate it directly, but it doesn't follow that they lacked indirect methods of potentially manipulating it... after all, they could create entelechies amongst other things. What was the reason they could not just selectively sunder a few of their own if they could not contrive any other way to handle it? I could also add in their burgeoning research on merging with their creations, which would be of possible benefit here depending on the creation involved. >What allowed the WoL to stop the final days was the ability to combat Dynamis with Dynamis Well no, not really. It was more that Venat and plenty of other ancients, and beings besides, were ready to hand them the means to get to the bottom of what was causing it. Besides being an exceptional individual, often attributed to their Azem soul, the WoL benefitted from plenty of aid here. She greatly weakened mankind's ability to withstand it. If you want to talk 'cryptonite' here, the sundered are far more vulnerable here because they lack the denser corporeal aether of the ancients, hence instead of spawning blasphemies via creation magicks, they are directly turned into them, with no trace of their soul left. Against a scattergun approach like Endsinger's, this is by far a greater vulnerability, especially absent Zodiark's potent shield. The ancients on the other hand had bought themselves plenty of time to ponder ways to solve this, but never did because Venat never said a word about the true issue. There wouldn't even be fuel for a Zodiark type being if it hit them rather than the ancients. Dynamis factored into forming the path to Endsinger, and she vaguely alludes to it during LB3 but for the former, that assumes the same exact path would have to be taken to reach her... Zenos just flew right up to her as a primal, an aetheric being. Secondly, Emet's 'ghost' had to tie it all together for that path to even hold, nevermind that they could just take an aetheric drill to her seeing how much weaker dynamis is, and has been confirmed to be in EE3 as well, than aether. So much so she requires overwhelming quantities of it and still couldn't penetrate sundered Zodiark's barrier until Fandaniel conned you into taking him out some 12k years later. Also the ancients can use LBs as well, which is no surprise considering they're described even in EE3 as aetheric phenomena. My point here isn't that any of these specifics would have to be the way it happened but that you cannot assume that how the WoL, with her aid, handled it, is the only possible path to resolution. The Omega Beyond the rift sidequest also set aside the notion that any specific psychological traits were advantageous in overcoming the despair, and instead went with the explanation that what the sundered, ancients and dragons shared in common, allowing them to overcome it, was the capacity of individuality of perspective, which Omega's 'people' lacked. She may have believed they couldn't handle it but it's an assumption on her part at the end of the day and not one I find very plausible.

[@echoesofetheirys]

Alexander locked itself in a time loop to ensure the star's safety. If you look back over the dialog, it says it could have changed the timeline but the cure would be worse than the disease due to how much aether it'd have to absorb to do it. Venat didn't have that limitation.

[@lolcat5303]

@@echoesofetheirys Yup and to add to this, Alexander would be running calculations to consider a number of possible states until it settles on a better timeline. So it wasn't a case of targeting a specific thing to change but something far more comprehensive, similar to getting a computer to try optimise across a gigantic range of variables. Thus, being a primal, he'd consume an awful lot of aether to do this.

[@1mdub90]

I'm not in the right headspace to listen to someone rant and complain just for the sake of ranting and complaining. I'll give this another go when I'm feeling there's less negativity in my life, cause it's a little too much right now.

[@darrencopperwell1406]

Go hit the gym or something, buddy. Not only will it improve your 'headspace' it'll hopefully make your life less dependent on whether or not someone criticises the mommy figure you imprinted on in an inconsistently written videogame.

[@1mdub90]

@@darrencopperwell1406 projecting much?

[@darrencopperwell1406]

@@1mdub90 Nah mate - and that particular comeback makes no sense in the context of what was said. I'm certainly not the one going on about 'negativity in my life' as if that has any bearing on a discussion over a video game of all things. You're just another effete FFXIV nutter using manipulation tactics and now you're mad because pattern recognition is in play. So my advice stands. Hit the gym, get some testosterone in your system and you might just manage to avoid becoming the next Pint, Jocat or Sena Bryer. Which, let's be honest, is probably the biggest risk for any guy still playing FFXIV at this point!

[@paradigmshift470]

Nobody hates the story of 14 quite like the bigger fans lol. I think yall just like to complain.

[@ArtificialOcean]

ARR gets slammed? I sleep. HW gets called bad and somethingsomethingGordiasalmostkilledthegame? Eh. SB's story dunked on for its cliches with endless gnashing and whining over Lyse? Zzzz. ShB? Well that was villain propaganda! Reeeee! Wait, someone criticized EW? I must sound the alarms and gather my friends to correct this! Let's sit in a circle chanting TRANCE! TRANCE! TRANCE! until the bad feelings go away! Phew, my perfect virtual mommy has been defended and we look very sane and normal to anyone looking in, unlike my discord trancer nemesis who are the real crazies! We won, sisters... wait... why are they still around?

[@lolcat5303]

@@ArtificialOcean All the while they wallow in the loocalizer infested slop that is Dawntrail and try reassure one another that it's definitely PEAK.

[@puzzlejinx]

ZODIARK TRANCE

[@lolcat5303]

How are you enjoying wallowing in the mess that's DT? Squeal louder, piglet.

[@th3urbangeisha696]

Granted the civilizations that we see in Ultima Thule may have already been dead or destroyed by their own hands, there's no telling how many other worlds emo bird pushed to the brink of destruction with her song of despair. The blood of those worlds is on Venat's hands as well. Thank you for this. I get so tired of people sucking off this character. EW sucked just as much as DT tbh, but EW tugged on players emotions which is why I suspect it gets a pass.