FFXIV Lore - Thordan's Betrayal was worse than you realize

[@SynodicScribe]

DISCLAIMER: This video was made to focus on Thordan's betrayal, why it was considered unforgivable and how the dragon's justified their rage. I'm not pardoning the slaughter of innocent people like many are assuming. The video discussing Nidhogg's decline into madness comes later. That video (along with the complete history of Ishgard) will take time, I'm just one guy.

[@Skijaramaz]

Fair enough, though it might have been a good idea to present that within the video itself. Just to avoid misunderstandings like this moving forward.

[@kitsunehanyou09]

I just finished watching this and as far as I understood, it was highlighting Thordan's wrongdoings and how his own short-sightedness essentially brought needless suffering for a hundred year long war. I still feel bad for Ratatoskr :

[@v8046]

Cant wait

[@AirYosukekun]

I thought you presented everything very fairly. Did people miss the part where you said Nidhogg was a racist and a supremacist?

[@TheZorch]

Though we never saw it in the Echo, there is a very high probability that Thordan's Betrayal was spurred on by the Asians. This something they'd do, in fact, their interactions with the Arch Bishop centuries later are likely part of a larger plan they had. A plan that ultimately got Lahabrea killed.

[@josephpiscitelli8053]

This really puts vritras success in thavnair into picture. In his words even when ratatoskr was slain he couldn’t bring himself to smite the mortals he had walked among for so many years

[@vigo2669]

@@dyingember8661 So out of all the dragons in Etheryis, not a one of them could still care for the mortal races. I mean he still hid himself from his people for thousands of years.

[@Dastreus]

and now that he is no longer in hiding, I now fear for his continued existence. Tho it may be thousands of years later, who can deny that another Thordan might come to be in Thavnair, eventually. Dammit.

[@SirKickBan]

It read to me as more of a "I value the bonds of choice more than the bonds of blood", kind of thing. -I'm not sure it speaks as much to Vrtra's success as their personality. They valued different things than Nidhogg and Hraesvelg, and so didn't feel the same level of anger when it happened. Presumably if the people of Thavnair were wholesale slaughtered he'd go into a similar rage, though when we see it happening he seems to regard the monsters as still being Thavnairian, so that's just speculation. -And I suppose we also don't know how many would have to die and in what way for that to happen.

[@FF-tp7qs]

Vrtra might have hidden the fact that he was the real sahtrap, but he was still viewed as a guardian of Thavnair, and people still knew he existed, they just didn't know he was ruling them from behind the scenes using the sahtraps as proxies. The alchemists working on the scales clearly knew there was a dragon living there, because Vrtra was having his simulacrum body delivering the scales he tore off his own body for their research.

[@UCvow2TUIH0d2Ax2vik9ILzg]

@@FF-tp7qs satrap!

[@StellarJay77]

Thordan is a textbook example of fear making manifest that which they are fearful of.

[@SynodicScribe]

Indeed. A cautionary tale to be sure.

[@Sethir]

Well, one knight did deny Thordan's madness... the Forgotten Knight

[@gb1oke]

I think that was after the deed was done. More like washing his hands and "yeah F this guys, I quit." instead of denying/opposing Thordan.

[@Felrika]

Another thing to note is that mortals have rather terrifying similarities in thought process to the Omicrons.

[@eastbow6053]

[@kingtk5848]

Well omicrons were in fact mortals at one point before they forsook their flesh in the pursuit of power.

[@granmastersword]

@@kingtk5848 power they initially craved to defend themselves from otherworldly threats. Yet they let that fear consume them to sacrifice their humanity for safety, which in turn led them to realize much, much later on that with all threats gone they no longer have a reason to live onward

[@KyrialArthian]

This is why Thordan has always been my most hated villain in the game. He was living in a practical paradise, but just because he himself was not the one in possession of all the power, he ruined it for everyone in the most evil way possible. Any other villain, there's some kind of decent reasoning behind what they do (even if that purpose has become warped over time, and/or their methods to achieve that purpose are horrible/wrong), but Thordan literally wanted power just for power's sake. He had nothing he wanted to achieve with that power. That said, his knights were pretty shitty for not fighting him on it. We clearly see that more than half of them weren't really okay with it, and went along with it solely because "my king ordered it so I gotta", which is just a hollow excuse. Those ones at least had the sense to say "fuck this, I'm out" after defeating Nidhogg, though. Haldrath just dedicated his life to slaughtering all the dragons he could, while the ancestors of the 4 High Houses were just like "hey, let's make up a bunch of lies about what actually happened here in order to make ourselves look like heroes and the dragons look like the villains, make it into a fucking RELIGION so no one dares to question it, and rule the nation ourselves!" Which... kinda almost as shitty as Thordan himself? Nidhogg may have wanted to make the Dragonsong War "an eternal requiem sung for his fallen sister", but I think if the Ishgardians actually knew the truth of what happened from the start, they would've found a way to bring peace long, long ago.

[@verdantmischief7092]

Honestly, yeah. Out of all the final bosses and major villains. I was the most ready to finally put an end to Thordan's reign. He was a horrible person that needed to die

[@aniruddhbhatkal1834]

There's one thing about paradise, imo. People don't realize it is one until they have burned it all to ash.

[@mikoto7693]

@@aniruddhbhatkal1834 That actually reminds me of happiness actually. I’m honest enough to admit this isn’t something I thought of myself but heard in Fallout 4 but thought. “Damn, that might just be one of the most true and profound things I’ve ever heard.” Made all the worse because a villain said it. “The trouble with happiness is, you only really know about it when it’s gone. You focus on the next job or some petty bullshit. You may think you’re happy but you never really believe it. It’s only after, when it’s all gone by comparison with what comes after do you realise, that’s what happiness feels like.” I’m sure that’s probably still just me paraphrasing and I’ve forgotten the exact wording or sequence of words but the gist is still there. My personal best example is when I was a child. I can just about remember a time when I was perfectly happy and content. I had absolutely no worries or fears or concerns. My parents really did a great job of both providing for me and my younger brother and making us happy. But it didn’t last. My family often went to the same places for various holidays because my parents really liked it there and so did we. A little village nestled at the bottom of a valley with a river running through the middle and all sides were nothing but forested hills. I don’t know how my parents discovered this place but we usually had one or two holidays a year staying in our caravan at the local caravan campsite. Exmoor really is one of the best natural places in the UK. But I have one very potent memory, when I was a teenager but still somehow had the endless energy to cycle around the camp over and over again. I think I must have had some homework I hadn’t finished yet and would need to do it after we got home after the half term week but before school started and I was mildly stressed about it whenever I thought about it. So there I am cycling this same circuit road as I had for so many years and that’s when it hit me. I realised that I was mildly stressed and annoyed by remembering the homework, but there had once been a time when I cycled that exact same road and when I had once been perfectly happy and content. And I was a bit sad when I realised both that I no longer felt like that and that I never would ever again. As similarly profound as when my first pet died, a hamster called Rosie and how shocking and sad it was that I really wouldn’t ever see her again.

[@zeninspriggan794]

It really put into emphasis the phrase "This is why we can't have nice things" 🥲

[@GanonAutumn777]

His knights were tempered It was confirmed in an interview that all the heavensward were tempered by thordan

[@lyconxero457]

I know it wasn't mentioned here because the focus was on Thordan's Betrayal but there are also clear differences in the psychologies of the various mortals throughout the world that I find interesting. For example, the Garleans always address the Eorzians as "savages" which from an outsider's perspective makes perfect sense when you look at their history. But then you also have to wonder just how much influence the Ascians have had over the world at large. Is it possible that ALL of the world's greatest conflicts were sparked by the Ascians in some way and that without their influence people may have found ways to work through their differences? I look at Thavnair and Merycidia as prime examples of how two similar cultures could come to two very different ends. Both Vtra and Bahamut/Tiamat made their homes in their respective lands before they even came to be known by their modern names and through their rule settled disputes and kept the general peace. Yet Bahamut was eventually slain by the Allagans upon their revival and Tiamat was tricked into summoning him back as a primal that was then bound and used as a power source and thus Merycidia seemingly fell to ruin. Vtra, on the other hand, decided to take himself out of the spotlight and rule from the shadows only making himself known to his people after his proxy was killed and the end of the world was upon them. By this point the Ascians were gone and the people, already aware that a dragon had a pact with their leader, seemed open to the idea to continue serving under him. It's not impossible that some group of mortals could have been tricked to come after Vtra after revealing himself were the Ascians still around but now that idea seems highly unlikely. Pair this with the fact that Vtra has probably spent more time with mortals than any other Dragon alive and is also aware of the happenings of other dragons around the world and those odds become even lower as Vtra would definitely know what sort of telltale signs to look for preceding such an incident.

[@Trattato68]

The blame can also be give to Ascians, if you want, but they just instigated the events, they never acted directly. For example, if the first King Thordan would not have been so incompetent and unfit to command, the Dragonsong War would not even have started. Or even speaking in real life, how much pain and tragedy could have been avoided if the people were able to elect their rulers on the basis of effective and proven leadership instead of how well one is able to use the language? And this in the modern era, in the past it was even worse with the transfer of power through inheritance. In reality Emet Selch looking at us would never have considered giving us the slightest chance in my opinion

[@iantaakalla8180]

I love how even in the most hopeful of cases like FFXIV, there explicitly requires a superpowered precursor shard for there to be any meaningful progress for humankind.

[@ToastyCoyote]

This also shows just how much compassion Vtra has for his people he’s known about mankind’s betrayals and faults yet he still cares for his people…. Though you could say he cares because he is essentially their immortal ruler that won’t be succeeded by anyone (yes it’s not like he’s god king or anything but)

[@sockhead3028]

I wouldn't be surprise that Vrta consider them his own kin cause out all of the brood it seem like he never had any kids of his own

[@pforgottonsoul]

to be fair i think vritra's people actually revered him none really tried to commit atrocities against him because the system they had was working.

[@emojisarepurecancer8097]

local king ruins everything, more at 5pm

[@AegixDrakan]

This whole story is so *freaking* tragic, and the horror of Thordan and his knights not only doing this, but then turning around and spending the next near millenia pretending that it was the *dragons* who struck first, and were the true bad guys...It's monstrous. Definitely A tier writing, loved the whole story, no matter how mad it made me at fictional characters long since dead. :)

[@turntapeover5749]

Another place that proves this bond can work is Thavnair as it flourished under the rule of a dragon. But despite this, Vrtra is all too aware and it makes him hesitant to unveil himself as its true ruler from fear of repeating another dragonsong war if the people of Thavnair were to learn the truth and rules from the shadows and hides behind his Sartrap and replica.

[@elinfini]

8:58 Hell, even Zenos said as much during Endwalker. He was pretty much the _only_ one willing to openly admit it (unlike everyone else on Etheirys).

[@dragoncamping655]

Personally I think it says a lot that instead of attacking the dragon that showed him contempt. He instead went for the one that showed him and his people nothing but good will. He even stabbed her in the back to take her power acting like a god even though he had done nothing to earn it. We're the dragons wrong with how some of them treated humans yes, but Thordan in the end only though about his own people and how he could lead them to greatness over the corpses of others.

[@TheHyny]

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

[@starofaetherius]

"Making the mother of all Omelets here, Jack. Can't fret over every egg." - King Thordan I probably.

[@diamondedge83]

I honestly don't think he was thinking about his people at all, just himself. The people were content.

[@FrostReave]

The thing about tyrants like this is it’s never really about others. It’s always about themselves. This wasn’t about raising humanity to a higher level it was only about raising himself.

[@elixxon]

More like he was too much of a pussy to fight Nidhogg for his power and instead assassinated an easy target. Thordan's story is not greed or thirst for power but perpetual weakness.

[@mslayer6467]

I must thank you and your videos, they helped me with my FC trivia night and I won first place do thanks, also love you videos, since I'm replacing all my wow knowledge woth ffxiv knowledge now

[@SynodicScribe]

That's so cool! I wish I could have been there to cheer you on!

[@SniperKing-O]

To be fair, the dragons should never completely let their guard down around mortals anyway. Them having experienced two seperate occasions what mortals can become if they give in to their lust for power or their fear of mightier beings than themselves. That way they can readily prevent tragedies of the past ready to repeat themselves at a moment's notice. The dragons may be powerful and wise beyond their years, but they're also susceptible to naive thinking. Something they need to learn to resist to insure their own race's survival.

[@lyconxero457]

Something just popped into my head that I never even considered before: is being immortal an aspect that possibly comes to beings who are unsundered or who at the very least carry vast amounts of aether? Like, we know that the Ancients were all immortal in the sense that they chose when they returned to the aetherial sea due to their incredibly dense aether (yet despite this there was still quite the wide margin between their individual abilities). All of the dragons that we've come into contact with were also immortal despite all being descended from the same small pool of genetic diversity. They are seemingly able to self-actualize their shapes as they evolve over time and only continue to grow steadily stronger. Then, we have many of the beings that were encountered towards the end of 6.0 who were also immortal in different ways but still immortal and the only commonality I can see between all of these different beings is that they were seemingly never sundered which seemed to allow them to lead longer lives and thus push towards their eventual ends much faster and easier. Mortals, on the other hand, have to struggle just to make it through the day at times and so there lives are defined by an eternal march to keep moving forward as much as they can while ensuring that future generations can take up where they left off. Feo Ul said it perfectly back in Shadowbringers that it's a mortal's lot to sow seeds that they may never see bloom in the hopes of a brighter future.

[@RuneKatashima]

Venat did say something to this effect. That because we were sundered we live fleeting lives.

[@ChronoMagister]

I didn't even think about dragons being unsundered. I forgot that they are aliens and weren't around until after the final days and the sundering

[@heartlacies]

Ahh, I love this channel so much! ♥ I was just watching the Dragoon back story, so I was pleasantly surprised to see this pop up. Please keep up the fantastic work!

[@KaminoZan]

When you hear a great dragon say, he labors after a thousand years to comprehend the enormity of a betrayal, he f*cking means it! As an aside, I *love* that line. It's one of the best from Heavensward.

[@Sarantserel]

That same feeling is also conveyed so powerfully by the last section of Dragonsong.

[@piersoncalley2236]

I heard an interesting take on the Dragonsong War and Thordan's ambitions. Shadowbringers spoilers ahead: So, the Eighth Calamity was the calamity of Light, the Source was priming itself for that, but what if Black Rose was a contingency plan? What if the original plan for the Eighth Calamity was to use the primal Thordan VII had become as the catalyst? We don't have any explicit statement saying which element he was associated with (to my knowledge) but he certainly looks Light-aligned. The biggest hole in this is that the world wasn't primed yet, but it would stand within reason that the Ascians could be using that as one of the "priming" events.

[@Crouza]

I think they would have capitalized, but I doubt it was planned. Lahabrea I doubt would willingly kill himself to help fuel Thordan, nor do I think Emet Selch or Elidibus, not matter how much they disagreed with him or his methods, would suffer an Unsundered to be killed for this.

[@piersoncalley2236]

@@Crouza Fair point, though I would argue the counterpoint here that was unforeseen, after all, Thordan does tell you from the beginning they were planning to betray the Ascians. I'm noticing a pattern with people named Thordan and betrayals.

[@BlackfangDragon]

The Calamity of Light being caused by Thordan was definitely Lahabreas plan. Then he got outplayed hard because he had no intention of being a puppet of Lahabrea.

[@Advon]

It is telling that Ardbert's journey would have taken place roughly during our time with Heavensward, and if that had gone right, the first would be in the middle of priming during all of this. But the Ascians very much seemed like the sort of people with many, many backup plans. Hell, us bringing down the Garlean Empire was probably the next backup plan after Black Rose, mirroring what was supposed to happen on the first.

[@RuneKatashima]

@@Advon Ardbert's journey was a long time ago. It was over 100 years before.

[@antarath517]

Still, when I think of Ishgard and the dragons, I am reminded of Deka-pente: "Local civilization once flourished under auspices of higher power. Said power later laid waste to civilization in fit of rage. Upon revealing this to me, entity elected to self-terminate in lieu of providing answer to question. No other intelligent life-forms found." And I wonder if this paradise would truly have lasted. I wonder if Thordan's fear were not unfounded. Though I still do find his actions deplorable, I wonder if this truly would have been the right course for life. Yet we can only wonder now.

[@SynodicScribe]

It's interesting to think about for sure! Things that matter never last forever. And the idea of a true paradise, much like perfection, is an illusion at best. So maybe it would've ended eventually. But Thordan's choices certainly rushed his civilization to it's ending, and sowed the seeds for a thousand years of strife. Maybe Nidhogg would've been as bad as they feared, or maybe he'd have been proven wrong. We'll never know.

[@kamisan89]

I suspect Nidhogg still lives, or at least some bit of his essence does, through Estinien or at the very least the spear which he used to destroy the eyes of Nidhogg. Meaning we may still have a bit more to glimpse on the relationship between Vritra and Nidhogg while Estinien is in Vritra's employ.

[@octapusxft]

Estinien kind of lives on for Nidhogg as well, doing the things Nidhogg would do if he was still sane and unbetrayed.

[@emeraldpichu1]

Technically a part of him lives inside all three of the former Azure Dragoons. He seeded them with part of his essence in an attempt to gain a vessel and that part of him is the source of many dragoon abilities.

[@DodecahedronBroke]

And thus one mans paranoia and hubris doomed generations of his people

[@TheZorch]

And, the Asians were probably behind it all. When something like this happened in history, the Asian's hands are usually all over it.

[@Barnuses]

I can just imagine the dragons and Ishgard relations staying strong over the thousand years. Forming alliances with the other Eorzean nations. The Garleans roll in to conquer Eorzea, Midgardsormr shows up to fight off the Agrius with Nidhogg and Ratagoskr at his side. Midgardsormr survives the fight. With the influx of refugees from Ala Mhigo pouring in and, with the emboldened Eorzean alliance, they push the empire right back out of northern Aldenard. This scares them into jumping to the whole plan to bring down Dalamud but with the combined Eorzean, Ishgardian, Dravanian, and probably Ala Mhigan allied forces they manage to stop them. Thus forestalling the Seventh Umbral Calamity. This would, of course, mean that the Crystal Tower remains buried, Coerthas remains a more temperate zone, Louisoix and the Circle of Knowing would still be around, and New Sharlayan would probably still be in operation. How this would affect summoning Alexander is kind of in the air. If Mide's group would team up with the Sharlayans to awaken Alexander given the potential and original purpose of it. And how they might use Alexander for their "Glorious Purpose" or whatever. The events of Heavensward and Stormblood wouldn't happen. Which would have an effect on the events of Shadowbringers. Everyone would probably just get Black Rose'd and the First would fall to the light because there would be no Crystal Tower or reason to awaken Omega. The Seventh Calamity brought by a surfeit of light. Then the Ascians rejoin the reflections. By this point Meteion has probably built up enough Dynamis to completely drown out Zodiark's barrier of aether and life in the universe ceases to exist. So in a way Thordan's Betrayal saved the universe.

[@CatCloud46]

Except probably not. Cause that kind of ending would go against everything ff14 is kind of about. Something that sounds more like something that would happen in ff14 would be that between that if the Black Rose fucks over everything you still had a super advance civ created by in part of dragons and an united Erzoa that is able to easily fight the Garlands. There is no way the survivors of Black Rose aren't able to find some other way to save themselves or another timeline of themselves in some way. Heck, there is nothing to say that this dragon/ishard alliance isn't able to advance Allagen research further given that many of them were alive back there and they would've had many more resources. Like, literally some of the major ongoing themes of ff14 have been all about how it's good to forge these kind of bounds with people, and how when we all unite together we can pull off impossible feats. As well as about not giving up in the face of despair and getting up again to reach for a better future no matter how bad it gets. It would go against everything ff14 is about to say "actually you lose BECAUSE you forged too many strong bonds with other people. And it turns out you can only overcome despair if these arbitrary conditions you weren't aware of were met before hand."

[@Barnuses]

@@CatCloud46 You're applying the canon timeline's narrative plot armor to an alternate timeline. There's already a future where everyone got Black Rose'd and the world fell into chaos. That timeline was either erased or continued on until it was probably rejoined by the Ascians and Meteion destroyed it eventually. You could argue the future timeline that G'raha came from was the way things were "supposed" to happen and the one we exist in is an artificially created timeline because of G'raha traveling back in time. Because of time travel we were saved from that Black Rose future and from Meteion. Much like the many worlds Meteion visited throughout the universe our world should have died if we didn't keep using time travel to change things. But in this timeline that I presented with the dragons would suggest there would be no time travel because the Seventh Umbral Calamity didn't happen with Bahamut destroying part of Eorzea and Louisoix/Phoenix revitalizing it. The Crystal Tower would remain buried. The Empire would be pushed out of Ala Mhigo so Ilberd wouldn't summon Shinryu. Thus Omega wouldn't need to be awakened. Also worth considering, it was the Omicron/Omega that destroyed the dragons' world and forced Midgardsormr to come to our world. The dragons would be very much against awakening it for any reason. The only thing that really presents as a mystery is how they would handle Alexander in this alternate timeline. If the Sharlayans still occupied New Sharlayan I don't think they would summon Alexander as a primal like Mide's group or the Illuminati. And even if they did, they wouldn't have enough aether to activate the time travel abilities without draining the land of aether(which would be stagnant with light if the First was rejoined) or the Crystal Tower, which would still be buried. Assuming anyone could even read the Enigma Codex to begin with.

[@Xehnas]

I see it a tad different. Obviously Thordan was part of the problem. But as the dragons are right that we cannot understand their longevity, they cannot understand our comparative ephemeral nature. As you said Niddhogg was a supremacist of his kind. This in a sense of irony, albeit however justified his rage after Bahamuts death help him in turn fuel Thordans fears. This means by the fears both held of each other, the both made the dragonsong war a self fulfilling prophecy. And in turn it took both sides laying down their weapons and cease fighting to attain peace. Both agreeing to attempt to forgive but never forget. But thats just my take on it.

[@ranaku603]

There is a small piece of the puzzle missing here tho, we learned from i think it was Ehll Tou or the quests from the moogle tribe (worst tribe ever...) that ratatoskr was apparently singing and she sang about stuff that could rub some people the wrong way, about reigning and such stuff. King thordan misunderstood that and thus the fear was born that dragons only want to rule them. Doesn't excuse eating eyes but it makes the things he did a bit more understandable and the war even more forked. Thousands of years of war cause of a translation error.

[@SynodicScribe]

Ratatoskr's only crime was her honesty. She was always frank with Thordan. Never understanding how much the truth of his own weakness scared him. Could she have worded herself better? Possibly, but she had no reason to believe she had made a mistake until her untimely death.

[@SirKickBan]

In hindsight, while Thordan didn't have good reasons for betraying the dragons, coexistence does seem *totally* impossible in the long term. All it takes is for one person, not necessarily even one you agree with or are aligned alongside, to make a dragon sufficiently angry, and that apparently just flips the 'genocide' switch not only for that dragon, but nearly all of its descendants. Living with dragons is like building your house on top of a gigantic landmine. Even if *you're* careful and don't ever set it off, if someone else does you're just as fucked, and the sane thing to do is to not live around gigantic landmines. If dragons were portrayed as a humanoid society, literally incapable of forgiveness and with the hive-mind ability to make all their descendants hate you as much as they do, they would be seen as an unambiguously monstrous society. ..But because they're mystical dragons that just gets swept under the rug >_>

[@Trattato68]

Well yes, but if you play stupid games you obtain stupid results, and thats what is happened with the dragonsong war

[@galath9242]

basically, Allagans should have exterminated them when they were still around. Make Source great again!

[@andrewherrmann5243]

idk about yall but i'm in that lecture hall with him, scroll and quill at the ready as i take down notes. can't stand academia irl, but drop me in a fantasy school with lectures as fascinating as these ones and i'm all there for it

[@thepainsight]

While Thoradan is 99% to blame for this situation, I don't think it's fair to dismiss Nidhogg's opinion's of humanity having a part in this nor his rampage again the humans who were unrelated to this rather than the leaders of the city. While dragons are creatures of emotions they are perfectly capable of restraining themselves and rational thought. There is also the matter of Hraesvelgr giving his eye to his brother despite knowing what would happen if he did and lets not forget that Nidhogg gave his brood no choice in attacking Ishgard and forced them to do so even when some of them did not want to. This whole situation was handled poorly by all parties and never needed to happen. Regardless even if this was avoided the ascians would have used this civilization to prime another calamity eventually so it was doomed from the start until the current WOL and co showed up

[@SynodicScribe]

Oh yeah, I can't wait to talk about the atrocities that Nidhogg committed. While his rage was justified, his actions were extreme. This made convincing Ishgard that he was just an evil evil dragon suuuuper easy.

[@thepainsight]

@@SynodicScribe Yep also not telling the Ishgardian public about the betrayal before attacking them is just plain stupid. All the majority of Ishgard knew is that the dragons attacked them randomly one day after killing their King. While I do not expect an enraged Nidhogg to explain, I certainly expect Hraesvelgr to do so. As they some would say, the people who knowningly could prevent a disaster but didn't are just as much at fault as the person who committed it.

[@Argascend]

imo it's less about trust persay and more about accepting/tolerating differences. Things don't always work out but life and living is about striving to see things through. All it takes is one catastrophic failure for a society to break apart but that applies to life as well.

[@BroadBoulders]

I like the character you take on in these. Like a real historian if it was real history. I can only imagine how well this would go if we were discussing real world politics and history 😂

[@SynodicScribe]

If I could stomach politics in the first place then maybe. lmao

[@savvivixen8490]

@@SynodicScribe Art reflects life, reflects art, reflects life....

[@GilgameshofBabylon]

I'm just thinking of Legend of Dragoon and the Dragon Spirits that come from their eyes. The humans in that game had to grab then to stand up against other oppressors. I wonder how a crossover would work?

[@Morrowinder777]

You forgot the detail that thordan went nuts went he learned that Niddhogg was going to be the next chief of dragons, and given the "hatred" niddy already had for humans (at best considering them beasts), no wonder he snaped and killed rata to deal with niddhogg. They talk about this in the lvl 80 DRG quest, that changes a lot how the conflict is. The dravanian-ishgardan war is an absolute clusterfuck, the only way to stop it was to kill both heads of the conflict.

[@Dastreus]

I AM SUDDENLY FEARFUL FOR VRTRA'S FUTURE.

[@ShiningNoctowls]

Thanks for sharing; take care

[@HikingFeral]

What you said about Midgardsormr glassing the land at the end there is pretty impossible seeing as he swore to protect it.

[@verdantmischief7092]

Plus he's quite fond of the player character he likely has hope in humanity regardless of their habit to allow betrayal to happen

[@Nikoli492]

I know this is somewhat unrelated but king Thordan VII may have become a primal but it may be possible that him using Nidhogg's eye to in power himself runs the risk of both him & all of his knights being corrupted & control by Nidhogg & that alone could be a calamity. Imagine Nidhogg having both the power of a primal & the power of a great dragon with Lahabrea life force & that just him having one of Nidhogg eyes.

[@sansfangirl4life439]

when you think on it the end of each patch could have been a Calamity, one that you manage to stop. The Ultima Weapon in ARR, King Thordan (and i u want to include him, Nidhogg) in HW, Zenos possessing Shinryu in StB and ofc what was happening to us n ShB. if it weren't for Ardbert, we would have been turned into a Lightwarden, and our soul was breaking to pieces. we almost became the Eighth Calamity. Dx

[@zedorian6547]

I love that these “scholarly” types now all of a sudden only refer to The Source aka Hydaelyn as Etheris. Just because the ancients referred to it as that way back in their time before it was sundered does NOT mean that Etheris is its only and permanent name. The Loporrits call it that because thats what they know it as, but every player character was not born in that era nor have lived in it aside from like 2 short instances and those instances exist in a place that no longer is. Places and names change. Etheris is gone and it isnt coming back. That was the point of us slaying Zodiark and stopping the Ascians. Its why Hydaelyn entrusted the future of the world to humanity as it is now and not to those who were during her time.

[@dullahandan4067]

So you're saying we need to eat Midgardsomr's eyes and kill the dragons before they kill us?

[@eW91dHViZSBpcyBjZW5zb3JzaGlw]

SOMEBODY FUND THIS MADLAD I THINK WE ONTO A BREAKTHROUGH!!!!!!!!!

[@latelotus]

Oh my! Dragons are unsundered aren't they!?! So no dragons on the reflections unless SE goes to great lengths to explain.

[@SynodicScribe]

Yup! That's why true dragons didn't exist on the first.

[@kaihedgie1747]

There are dragons in the First, in Lakeland, specifically

[@nervnerd]

@@kaihedgie1747 those are not known true dragons. Most of those are fae. True dragons such as nid or baha are only able to come from the dragon star. We only have one report of a dragon coming from the star and by that account it is middy himself.

[@kaihedgie1747]

@@nervnerd The fae are in Il Mheg/Voeburt, which is far away from Lakeland. With the exception of Feo Ul, fae tend to not wander away from their kingdom

[@TheJohnnylupine]

@@kaihedgie1747 there's also a whale. Bismarck 2 where are the dragons in Lakeland btw?

[@jasonthomas7909]

Isint it a bit hypocritical of the dragons to expect mortals to strand up against their corrupt leaders? to go against desires for self preservation and safety? Dragons are capable, and willing to use what is basically mind control to force their children to follow their will. The storm blood dragoon quest shows us that Nidhogg wouldent have suffered any of his children advocating peace or forgiveness.

[@pedroportela6476]

It IS hypocritical to us. To immortal and unreasonable Dragons like Nidhogg duirng the dragonsong war and Midgarsomr, it doesn't seem that way. None of them could ever understand what being a weak human that relies on other people to survive feels like. And the one that DID understand a human, ended up devouring said human. I'm pretty sure that Vtra is the only one that GETS humans. Thordan's betrayal didn't do anything but speed up the inevitable. Dragons and men WOULD never ultimately see eye to eye for very long before the chasm of differences between the two races shows itself.

[@thepainsight]

@@pedroportela6476 Especially when certain dragons hold humanity in contempt

[@ubiwrongcomeatme3452]

Mortals do stand up to corrupt leaders, tho.

[@thepainsight]

@@ubiwrongcomeatme3452 They do and with a king like Thordan they would die meaninglessly especially when the story of what happened is hidden to the public.

[@ubiwrongcomeatme3452]

@@thepainsight This generation *is* broken. Standing up to tyrants is *always* meaningful - even if you die, even if you fail.

[@madambutterfly1997]

Literally everyone is guilty because those who should have stopped the war like Haldrith, but opted to avenge his father instead and make peace less possible. Rather than rectify his mistakes he chose to abdicate the throne and go off protecting the Innocence whose deaths were going to be a byproduct of the actions he took

[@whydidntiriswin]

I love your videos a lot! They draw me in and are good for when I am not feeling well! Is there some sort of way to suggest video ideas? I've been interested in Sineaters so I would definitely try to input that!

[@SynodicScribe]

I'm glad I can make your day at least a little better! Sineaters eh? I could certainly try. They're extremely similar to voidsent so it shouldn't be to hard.

[@destroylight2532]

Real quick but I had a question about something in the level 80 dragoon quest that is tied to this video so real quick spoilers ahead When I played through the quest i remember that vedfolner and his mate said that the betrayal and butchering of ratatosker seemed less premeditated and more spur the moment. Am I just remembering it wrong? Also I do remember that thordin did pose the question to ratatosker about what nidhogg thought about humanity and if they could be caretakers of the planet like the dragons. I might just be going too deep into this but this definitely doesn’t make thordins actions I think it would make it even worse sense it would mean he wasn’t thinking about consequences when he did it.

[@SynodicScribe]

What happened was that Thordan had the idea. But when he went to meet with Ratatoskr she was honest and said what Nidhogg thought of the races of man. Thordan's fear of Nidhogg took over at that moment, making him decide then and there to murder Ratatoskr for her power. So he knew what he could do, but only went through with it once he understood Nidhogg's opinion of non-dragons. Soooo it was technically planned, but the murder was spur of the moment.

[@jedikitteh]

You know, this is quite intriguing.

[@griffca4814]

I saw your channel icon and thought this was Tempelton Institute. Nice video though.

[@gustavkristofersson1326]

Yay youre back!

[@SynodicScribe]

Sorry for the wait! Posting 4 videos last week took a lot out of me. xD

[@ridewild1956]

something i'm confused about from the level 80 dragoon quest, was ratatoskr nidhogg's first mate or were they just really close

[@nervnerd]

I dont think they've implied mate status just that the three dravanian dragons where closer then their other siblings. Rat was super kind and supportive and nid liked that. He wanted to be good but he was driven by his code that he use his strenght to protect his kin, especially after the murder of his brother and imprisonment if his other sister.

[@specialnewb9821]

Reviving the Dragonstar makes them even.

[@averageplayers5288]

great vid

[@Geekezf]

The only way for the war to never happen again is simply to write down in every history books the actual reason why it has started. Make Thordan the first the exemple no kids should follow and Ratatosk the dragon that was a bit too naïve for the mortal nature. For now, the WoL can and will stop a war from happen. He/she make sure of it. It all depend on Aymeric and hraesvelgr (and other dragons) to make sure it never start again

[@lucatielofmirrah914]

Awesome!

[@madambutterfly1997]

Ratatoskr and Vritra were very pro-coexistence with humans

[@BlaxxShadow]

Honestly, if Nidhogg slaughtered the Knights of the Round and no more than I wouldn't have batted an eyelash.

[@Makorze]

He kinda did. He killed Thordan and his host but that did not quell the burning anger in Nidhogg's heart and so the Dragonsong War raged on upon thier decendants.

[@mikoto7693]

I’ve listened carefully and watched the story of Heavensward and honestly I see fault on both sides of the Dragonsong War and the events that caused it. So straight up Thorden and his twelve knights were very wrong, very selfish, shortsighted, foolish and evil. There’s absolutely no doubt about that and he should be remembered in Hydelyn as Hitler is in the real world. If I had but one wish regarding this game would be to talk to the writers. One of my biggest questions would be “So if Thordan had been a good and honourable man, or perhaps one of the Elezen closest to Ratatorskyr had explained the fears of lesser men about the power of dragons, would she and any other dragons have been willing to share their powers? Even if the answer was yes, I still think that the dragons would have to devise a series of tests and challenges to be given the opportunity of borrowing a dragon eye until their deathbed on which the dragon would retrieve his/her eye and may choose to lend it to a worthy Elezen anew or to keep it depending on what was done with the borrowed power. Wouldn’t that be a kicker? If Thordan had just been a bit nicer and asked, he would have gotten the power he sought without harming the future at all. But getting back on topic there’s nothing that can justify what he did and at first, in the very beginning after Ratataskyr having been betrayed and murdered, Nidhogg had a good reason to seek out justice or even vengeance if the rest of the Elezen of Ishgard didn’t agree and assist the dragons into bringing Thordan, his knights and other supporters to justice. But things should have ended there. FF14 isn’t the only one or even the first to have a character that had this same, simple and fundamental flaw. Nidhogg was justified in going after Thordan, his knights and other supporters and only them. I mean he won by default by the sounds of it through the simple biological advantage of being immortal. Thordan and his supporters died of old age if nothing else. I could have even tolerated him going after their sons/daughters and even grandchildren of direct bloodline from Thordan and his supporters. But anything beyond that just can’t be justified. Going after an entire country for the crimes of a few? Not every Ishgardian is a bloodthirsty fool, nor are all of them the best Ishgard has to offer. To use examples from real life, it would be like me (or maybe someone with actual power like Boris Johnson) hating every single Russian from babies to old men, because a small group of Russia soldiers smoked and chatted with two unarmed Ukrainian civilian men then callously shot them in the back while said civilians were walking away, then stealing from their corpses. And BoJo deciding then that he despises *all* Russians and spends the rest of his life carpet bombing Russia from one side to the next. (Obviously I’m excluding the availability of nukes from this scenario. I’m just making a point.) But yeah I call a limit at Thordan grandchildren because by that point his descendants will bear very little direct genetic relationship to him, and enough years would have passed that it’s likely Ishgard’s culture would have evolved or shifted a bit. Heck in the real world cultures shift significantly every decade or so. Some of us remember a time without Pokémon! So now that we’ve gotten that idea established, how bad is it that because of Thordan and his supporters, Nidhogg, his brood, and more dragons hate all Elezen? Including the Gridanian wildwood and even the Duskwrights or Elezen as yet unknown to me who still works her way through Stormblood? And what about the Hyur? There is a significant number of them in Ishgard although they are a minority. We know dragons fight and kill Hyur Ishgardians because of that equally stupid woman who drugs the WoL and tries to sabotage peace between Ishgard and Dravania. As I recall she wants the war to continue so dragons can continue to die at Dragoon spear tips, again because one dragon killed one Hyur and she has the same flaw. Just encourage any dragon deaths instead of just that one dragon. If she wanted revenge that badly she should have trained and become a dragoon herself and hunt her husband’s killer down much like she might have done had his killer been Ishgardian. But getting back on track, no Hyur ever killed Ratatoskyr. You can probably guess what I’m going to say next, but the hatred of… mortals? Hyuroids? Humanoids? For the purposes of this post, Hyuroids then. So the Miqo’te, Roegadyn, Lalafell, Au’Ra, Viera and Hrothgar then. Why include them in the seemingly blind hatred that the dragons of Nidhogg’s brood? Some of those races exist on another continent. But I have to concede that the exact opinion of other races and nations is a bit murky. Really the Dragonsong War has been pretty much confined to Ishgardian and Dravanian territories so it’s hard to say exactly. There didn’t seem to be any indication of the dragons position of Ishgard joining the Eorzean Alliance part of the way through the story of Heavensward. On the other hand the dragons were speaking to or confronting each other using the term “mortal.” I suspect that’s probably more a case of the fact the rest of the world in Stormblood and beyond didn’t technically exist yet when Heavensward was new. I suppose it doesn’t matter in the long run because Nidhogg and his brood lost any kind of justification for the Dragonsong War some roughly nine hundred years ago when the last grandchildren of Thordan, his knights and supporters died. I get that the dragons are immortal and bear the memories and emotions of centuries long passed. Nidhogg’s lack of ability to seek properly directed justice, grieve, recover and move on drove him insane and so when the WoL finally killed him for good did both him and the world a favour. But the bit I’m not certain about is whether his madness was solely due to Nidhogg himself or something inherent to dragons given that the only thing that prevented Hvaesrelgyr from going the same way was his merger with the soul of Shiva and even that didn’t stop him from saving Nidhogg and just standing back and watching his brother and his brood senselessly butcher thousands and thousands-perhaps millions of completely innocent Elezen and Hyur whose only “crime” was being born in Ishgard. At least some of those being from an entirely different species that had no involvement with Ratatoskyr’s murder at all. Perhaps most damningly in my opinion is that Hvaesrelgyr could have likely ended the pointless slaughter of generations of innocent people by either taking back his eye or perhaps getting Midgardsormr to at least make Nidhogg stop the pointless butchery of innocent people. As a final side note, I’m not entirely certain about the sanity of Tiamat either. (Again I remind you, patient and kind reader to have gotten this far, that as of the time writing this post I’m only as far as Stormblood, specifically handling the blue and red Kojin and have only accidentally come across a handful of spoilers beyond this point and none of them regard dragons.) Yeah it’s awful what the Ascians tricked her into doing regarding Bahamut yet allowing herself to languish in Azys La for so long without even trying to rectify or at least mitigate the damage caused by Primal Bahamut doesn’t strike me as particularly sane either. She is a dragon who is the daughter of Midgardsormr, the kind of power at her command could surely have helped against primal Bahamut especially if she chose to have her own brood. Ease her guilt by mitigating some of the damage. And so I come to the end of my thoughts and opinions regarding the Dragonsong War. In short, yes what Thordan did was evil and appalling and the dragons were fully justified in trying to get justice or vengeance against him and his supporters. I’d even excuse them killing their direct bloodline until the great grandchildren generation who should have been left alone as both different and innocent. But the wanton slaughter of hundreds of generations of totality innocent people for the crimes of ancestors they’d be lucky to even know of after a few hundred years, no the dragons should have known better. Where was the supposed wisdom great age is supposed to impart? Yeah it was partially problems of biological lifespan but I find myself asking a question I’m not certain of the answer to. Given all that I’ve just written, who is the real monster here? Is it Thordan and his followers for betraying and murdering a trusting ally to steal her power? Or is it the dragons for actively butchering thousands of completely innocent people, most of whom whose ancestors had nothing to do with Ratatoskyr’s fate or even are of a different species entirely? Dragons who either did the butchering or didn’t, but could have stopped those who were? If anyone wants to give me their answer, debate my position, agree with me or expand on what I started or correct me if I’ve missed something, or gotten something wrong, I would welcome the discussion. Only please stay polite and don’t give me spoilers beyond my point in the MSQ though if you think it’s really important then use a spoiler space warning and try to indicate how the spoiler is important. Otherwise thank you for reading what turned out to be an essay. 🙂

[@Demonboy007]

Several things to point out your essay, which I read and enjoyed: There's a dungeon in 3.2/3.3 that puts humans into the very trial you suggested, so yeah, one day that bond COULD have happened (not to mention would have been an amazing callback to FF1 and maybe FF4). Dragons have a different perspective of time than humans, so 1000 years may be much small in their eyes. There's this one joke that goes "You're still on about your sister? That was ages ago." "IT WAS YESTERDAY YOU FUCK." In regards to Nidhogg and his madness, imagine during those 1000 years, her power and blood that the surviving knights twelve is being spread from their offsprings, but from a dragon's senses, it's still potent. So you have to feel your sister's essence as a constant reminder that these people killed her and consumed her power. As for Tiamat, two things to remember - She's stuck in Azys Lla due to that barrier and the neurolinks locked on her. She couldn't move even if she wanted to and would still be stuck behind the barrier if she was free. Also, she's not sane - she's tempered. Not as bad everyone else was but that's due to her seeing Bahamut as her beloved rather than a god, which saved the bits of her mind from being completely tempered. The worst part about the betrayal was that they didn't go after Nidhogg or even Hraesvelgr: They went after the kindest of the first brood, the one who labored and sang every day to bring peace between the two races. As a note, one part of the Dragonsong War that interested me was Nidhogg's death and forced revival, where even Hraesvelgr and Midgardsormr were like "ayo what the fu-".

[@gamephreak5]

Nidhogg is more of a "Hitler" than Thordan. King Thordan did nothing wrong and thought only to protect his own people.

[@verdantmischief7092]

​@@gamephreak5He didn't want to protect humanity. He wanted an eternal reign as god king. We beat his ass when that happened too by the way

[@Evnyofdeath]

Huh. I wasn't expecting of all things the use of glassing to break the immersion. Its a turn of phrase so deeply associated with Gritty Sci Fi that it just ripped me right out of the mood.

[@aniruddhbhatkal1834]

Thordan's betrayal is the only major incident that we can't prove was orchestrated by the Ascians, right?

[@SynodicScribe]

It's implied that the ascians gave Thordan the knowledge of the dragon's eyes. But it was entirely his choice to betray them and abuse that knowledge for his own gain.

[@hoshi314]

i need to stress this for myself, i was thinking about HW Thordan and not the very first Thordan LOL

[@FrankTulloch]

Epic Betrayal

[@cspcchcody]

Guess DRK start at Ishgard for a reason Glad we take thoraden and his knights out of their misery

[@laylaalder2251]

I can't believe Thordain isekai'd Ratatoskr into a Fromsoft lore channel...

[@MidKnightOTC]

Imagine a 3rd regicide of the 1st brood. Midgardsormr would erase the star and every warrior of light on it.

[@RuneKatashima]

It's a little less clear cut than this. You said we will never have peace but also, in a way, this was the point. In fact, the Dragons were betrayed a third time. When Vidofnir came for peace talks she was immediately attacked and almost killed. This was almost necessary to prove a point though. You cannot blame a whole for the actions of a few. And of course there's the Sins of the Father theme going on the whole way but I'm sidelining that for now. The Dragons had to come to understand this. That Mankind themselves are worthy of an alliance and that they do want peace most of all, and that neither side can let detractors destroy that. Vidofnir was attacked, but so too, did Nidhogg keep attacking even after peace was brokered. History wasn't meant to be buried. It was meant to be learned from. Thordan's influence is a thing just like the World Wars were for us.

[@dianauwu1312]

Thordan is one of the most despicable leaders in the star's history but Dragons hating mortals isn't justified all this time after his rule and eventual fall. If Elezen and Hyur fight a war, and kill each other, they might experience tensions for a long time but that's not an excuse for either race to distrust the other on principle.

[@destroyah4ever411]

What I take from everything Niddy done is simply I don’t condone what he has done but I understand why his rage was justified

[@goldtoothslair3052]

Though Nighog was a very powerful and very Savage dragon. His anger wasn't without reasons. Though fighting him at the final steps just felt pity for him and wish you didn't have to come down to that fight. I know us dragoons are not really supposed to be feeling emotions and we charge headfirst into any challenge but killing somebody that only wanted revenge for what has happened to his own love in his life after seeing his brother as well be slain by the race of man. I think I would have caused a thousand year war as well.

[@swapertxking]

You just know the garleans are gonna ruin it.

[@Gumpie13]

Comments are...confusing.

[@SynodicScribe]

Right?!

[@Gumpie13]

@@SynodicScribe I mean..it's unreal real right?

[@SynodicScribe]

@@Gumpie13 You should see the entire essays of people's head cannon I get now and then. Gets crazy. xD

[@Gumpie13]

@@SynodicScribe 😅

[@williamchin5904]

The question is, "is the average ffxiv player in extreme or savage to be treated as an altruist like hraesvlgr/shiva or to be treated as a self-interested 6 year old like Thordan?" (Assuming one has to choose between either for simplicity's sake) How do we foster equity, you know?

[@eW91dHViZSBpcyBjZW5zb3JzaGlw]

DRAGONS DID NOTHING WRONG. 1ST DRAGONSTAR AND THE ALPHA RACE NOW ETHERYS AND HUMANS. DAMN THEY STAY GETTING SCREWED OVER.

[@dragoon109]

I have a question. We know Shiva let her self be eaten. But what if the she dragon did as well. We never saw in the vision the king killing her. Only said he did. What if this was a plan between them?

[@SynodicScribe]

If Ratatoskr did willingly offer up herself and her power to Thordan, it would have been a spectacle. A grand show to demonstrate the bond between man and dragon. She would have had no reason to keep that a secret, especially with how temperamental she knew Nidhogg was.

[@dragoon109]

@@SynodicScribe may be it was for both sides? She knew nidhogg was angry at mortals. So maybe keeping it a secret would show what the dragons really think of the mortals? Like there is a difference between a love for a pet and equal kind of thing?

[@Xbob42]

"Proving that mortals can never be fully trusted." Ah, good to see an ancient and incredibly wise race of beings has the intellectual capacity of a belligerent toddler. Seeing the actions of a few and assigning blame to everyone is some ultra simplistic thinking and I don't think anything about any dragon's dialogue shows that they think of "mortal races" as some big hive mind or something. Frankly the entire Dragonsong War struck me as weirdly petty and childish. Not that Nidhogg wouldn't be filled with rage, but that it would be this bizarre attack on a completely irrelevant-to-the-conflict collection of beings who obviously were completely uninvolved with the betrayal. It's like you (not you personally Syn, you do good work, speaking generally here!) have to make the dragons dumb assholes to get the pieces to fit properly. But in the actual story we see how thoughtful, considerate, contemplative, compassionate and empathetic they are. It has always sat poorly with me that they'd be on some utterly meaningless and self-destructive revenge crusade for something that could not be undone by people who didn't do it to begin with, to punish others who were long dead and couldn't give a shit less because they were dead. And it's kind of made even more bizarre in hindsight because of Endwalker. Clearly Midgardsormr was able to endure incredible loss and sadness (so, so much more than Nidhogg) without becoming a raving lunatic about it. "Well, Nidhogg isn't Midgardsormr, he's another being entirely." That's true! It's almost like dragons aren't a hive mind and individuals can make colossal mistakes and be desperately wrong and stupid even when their anger itself is more than justified! And that if humans around the world dedicated their lives to eradicating dragons because of Nidhogg's actions, they would not be framed in this weirdly "well, they had it coming because of what Nidhogg did" light because they would be wrong and assholes for doing so. I mean, I know, I get it, the story goes into this and that's kind of the point, but I just can never fully suspend my disbelief long enough to believe the dragons would be so dumb in the first place. Nidhogg going crazy and his song making his brood go nuts as well, sure, but the other dragons? Really?

[@JulianSkies]

I don't think we specifically ever meet different broods than Nidhogg's and Hraesvelgr's? Nidhogg's going nuts because their lord is super pushing it on them, and as shown in the Stormblood Dragoon quests, it takes a tremendous power of will and geographical distance to avoid the call. And every chill dragon we meet is from Hraesvelgr's brood. So we don't ever really... MEET the "other dragons". Meracydian dragons (Bahamut and Tiamat's brood) are MIA during the entire dragonsong war (either dead or enslaved i'd say, but Tiamat's actions in the final patch of Shadowbringers indicates some of her children were still about somewhere), Vrtra doesn't HAVE a brood to call his own and Midgard's final child is conspicuously silent to the world.

[@KyrialArthian]

I can agree with most of this, but I think one thing that you fail to take into account is that dragons simply don't process time the way we mortals do. They specifically stated that while it seems "almost impossibly long ago" to us, to dragons, it's like it happened yesterday. So, I think some leeway should be made there. Also, my interpretation of the dragons' beliefs is that because mortals don't live forever like dragons, death just isn't as much of a consequence, and so the only way they can see to effectively punish mortals for killing them would be to hold their entire bloodline responsible. It's the closest they can get to "an eye for an eye." You cut short a nigh-infinite life, so we'll keep cutting short the lives of people of your bloodline forever. Are they justified in doing that? Probably not, but at the very least, it sounds a bit more reasonable than than just an "utterly meaningless and self-destructive revenge crusade for something that could not be undone by people who didn't do it to begin with, to punish others who were long dead and couldn't give a shit less because they were dead."

[@DistendedPerinium]

@@KyrialArthian To add to this, Midgardsormer is possibly the oldest being we've seen in game, contemporary to the Ascians. The first brood is, comparatively speaking, almost as old. Beings who live on these time scales simply do not think like mortals do. They won't even conceptualize generations the same way. While we may look at a dragon like Nidhogg and see Nidhogg, a dragon would look at a mortal and see a mortal, not John Smith from Gridania. They may recognize something like a tribe as their equivilent to an individual, but not individual beings.

[@SirKickBan]

@@KyrialArthian Even if that's true, that doesn't mean it's not weird, somewhat ham-fisted writing. It means, for instance, that humans can literally never trust dragons. You never know when some random person is going to make one so angry they flip some internal 'genocide mode' switch and decide to wipe out your entire race, while forcing all their descendants to feel the same way, forever. That's bad writing for a setting like this, both because it's utterly bizarre in a way that strains suspension of disbelief, makes it harder to empathize with dragons, and also means there's no hopeful outcome to this story. *Eventually* our descendants, provided the world doesn't end, *will* have to fight Vrtra, and Hraesvalgr, and all of their kin and descendants, and either wipe them out or be wiped out. I mean, you give anybody a few thousand years and they'll experience some pretty enraging events, but only in the case of Dragons does this mean their entire lineage gets stuck in a permanent war against you.

[@KyrialArthian]

@@SirKickBan The difference here is, I was saying 'bloodline' as in the literal family line, not the entire race. It was implied that most of Ishgard was descended from the families of those 12 knights who killed Ratatoskr and defeated Nidhogg. So Ishgard was being "punished" by Nidhogg because they were the FAMILY of the betrayers, not because they were Elezen, or because they were mortal, or some such. He could've simply wiped out every descendant eventually (Estinien even mentions that he's often wondered why Nidhogg has never just burned Ishgard to the ground and been done with it; he's clearly capable of doing so), but he purposely didn't because he wanted to keep them suffering forever. Also, while I was stating that the dragons DID believe that, I'd also like to point out that they CAN *change* their beliefs, and many of them *did*. In the end, they rose above their hatred and agreed to work with the Ishgardians towards peace. I think you're taking Nidhogg's failings as an individual and applying them to all of dragonkind, even when your whole problem with the dragons seems to have been them doing that to mortals. Yes, Nidhogg lost himself to rage, and basically forced his brood into war, but that doesn't mean any of his siblings are guaranteed to do the same if they experience enough bad shit. I don't think it's "bad writing" to have a flawed individual go way too far with said flaws, causing untold suffering and having to be put down, while simultaneously serving as a lesson to everyone to not repeat his mistakes. I feel like I didn't say this clearly enough in my original post, but I think your whole problem stems from you seeing the Dragonsong War as the dragons launching a "bizarre attack on a completely irrelevant-to-the-conflict collection of beings who obviously were completely uninvolved with the betrayal," but that's just... completely wrong. They are NOT irrelevant to the conflict; they are the very descendants of the betrayers. To us mortals, that might mean jack shit, but to the dragons, it was very signifigant. It was really just a bad case of culture shock, which was eventually resolved through our actions in the game, which got them to stop fighting and talk it out.

[@andljoy]

Thordan did nothing wrong.

[@verdantmischief7092]

We beat his ass in the ultimate. He's wrong in every timeline!

[@Sylentmana]

Ah yes, dragon logic: one mortal does something bad, therefore I must kill every mortal who had no idea what even happened. It’s just like Ramuh’s logic. Some mortals are bad, therefore all mortals are to blame. Brilliant.

[@verdantmischief7092]

Nidhogg was the main reason the dragonsong war kept going on, don't you remember? He gladly let ishgard live for centuries instead of just destroying the country just so he could keep claiming vengeance. And the intersting thing is that dragons experience time differently. The betrayal probably still burned like it happened a year ago and he couldn't move on from his loved one's death.

[@Dragon_Lair]

One thing to note is is that the dragons are guilty of just as many crimes as Thordan was. Nidhogg punished and slaughtered thousands of people who had no way of knowing that a crime had even taken place against dragons at all. His actions made it easy for the Ishgardian church to paint all dragons as aggressors and Ishgard as innocent victims, because to many of the everyday Ishgardian, the dragons attacked and slaughtered them without provocation. This, and your video about Minfilia being done dirty, are probably some of the only videos I dislike of yours. When you mention Minfilia was done dirty it made it sound like you think the only type of power and influence a woman can have that has any merit or worth is combat prowess, and in this one you seem to absolve the dragons of all blame in the war.

[@SynodicScribe]

You maybe be focusing to hard on particular things my friend. My aim with Minfilia was to showcase how many times they used the "damsel in distress" trope on her, not to assert my own bias. Likewise, my goal with this video was to explain why Thordan's actions have lead to permanent dragon hostility. Nidhogg's anger was justified, but his madness needed to be stopped. If you fundamentally disagree with my methods that's absolutely your right. Though I will say my channel is made for entertainment only, not to push a personal agenda.

[@Dragon_Lair]

@@SynodicScribe Fair enough. I do enjoy your content significantly (just beat Heavensward two days ago, I'm a WoW refugee). You keep doing you. You make good content. As I said, this is only the 2nd video of yours that had stuff I didn't 100% agree with. If you were to 100% reflect my views and opinions then you would be me and there wouldn't even be a need for discussion or viewpoints, plus you know a lot more about the lore than I do seeing as I have only been playing since December. Looking forward to more videos in the future and don't change anything because of doubters or skeptics, such as I just was in my original comment. Stay true to whatever content you enjoy making.

[@SynodicScribe]

@@Dragon_Lair Then I hope you enjoy so much more this game has to offer! I'll be cheering for you!

[@Dragon_Lair]

@@SynodicScribe Thanks. I'll be watching your videos....unless the title makes me think there are spoilers for parts I haven't gotten to yet. lol

[@eW91dHViZSBpcyBjZW5zb3JzaGlw]

If only the whole world could be as civilized as this comment thread wed be on mars by now... *deep sigh*

[@Thundawich]

This has always felt like racist propaganda to me. 'Life was perfect and no-one ever suffered until those elezen showed up. Some of us kinda liked some of them but then one of them did a murder and this shows that they are all evil so lets kill them all'. Is it any wonder that thordan might have felt the need to try and match the strength of the dragons if there was essentially an entire army laying next door that was openly hostile towards him and ready to attack at the drop of a hat? Thordan is the villain here because of the intentions of the authors, but if the situation actually happened in the real world we would be incredibly sympathetic towards him. Dude is just scared of the openly hostile giant monsters that live next door and keep saying they don't like him and preferred it better before his kind showed up, growling whenever he walks past the window and never inviting him to the neighborhood barbeques. Whether his actions were actually needed to safeguard the lives of himself and his people is irrelevant, its entirely predictable that *someone* like him would eventually do *something* like what he did. If the circumstances of the races were reversed, I would expect that some dragon would do the same thing to the elezen.

[@iantaakalla8180]

Honestly, I was surprised there was peace. This is very much like races in the US; there is tolerance and interaction, but it will take only one action to stoke the flames of war between whatever.

[@verdantmischief7092]

Thats now what it is.... the humans brutally killed and experimented on their kind. These dragons are powerful creatures that can level cities and they're being treated like that. Even after being friends for centuries the best among them was slain, it makes sense that many of them would turn away from humans after that. Its not justified but neither is what Thordan did. As explained in the video, humans can overcome dragons by sheer force of will, they were judt greedy and lusting for more power and killed an innocent dragon for her eyes

[@verdantmischief7092]

I seriously don't get how you think people would support Thordan irl that part is just insane lol

[@verdantmischief7092]

​@@iantaakalla8180Believe it or not people like peace they like to make friends with others and learn new things from them and make a better world to live in, the people in power (Thordan/Nidhogg) are fighting each other because they believe their strength gives them a right to enforce their own selfish ideals.

[@gamephreak5]

Screw the Dragons! King Thordan did nothing wrong!

[@Underborn11]

King Thordan was based

[@Nikrard]

hydaelyn is the main culprit. she sundered humanity and the new humans, fragments of the ancients, are more greey, envious of others the power of the dragons is weaker than the true power of a unsundered, it is normal that unconious mankind is envious of the power and want it back

[@draochvar9646]

Are dragons sundered though? I'm pretty sure they arrived on Hydaelyn after that happened.