FIFTH WHEEL RV vs GOOSENECK Trailers. WHY THE DIFFERENCE? Explained!

#rv #towing #trucks
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[@raven7068]

The sad thing about this video is that he had to spend 1 minute in the beginning of the video explaining himself so that people don't have to get their feelings hurt. People just need to grow up and not get so hurt about every little thing, lol.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

And to make things worse, there's people who claim to be frame designers, builders, and engineers and absolutely try to make people believe that flex is not inherent to any structure along the span. They're trying to convince people that physics is not supposed to exist in trailer manufacturing.

[@philip600rr]

I just drove My family's class A from California to Georgia on Interstate 40. The roads were absolutely horrendous, multiple times I actually caught air driving the RV. The roads didn't get smooth till Texas and then our exhaust pipe flange to the catalyst snapped off completely after a huge bump near Atlanta, Georgia. Our infrastructure is absolutely garbage. I think this is contributing to alot of issues people are having.

[@armslength2618]

Yup, all the more reason to have a trailer with greater strength and resilience and carry less weight. Sort of like the first western cars shipped to the newly-freed Soviet states had to be. Nothing like the jolting potholes of a Soviet road to wake you up in the morning.

[@JFSMASH]

I agree 100%. I40 has very bumpy sections in az and NM

[@Itsa_Mea]

Flexing isn't the problem. It is when fasteners are missing or loose and it begins to hyperflex beginning a chain reaction of self destruction.

[@armslength2618]

If you fasten toilet-tissue to a frame with the strongest glue in the world, you still only have tissue walls.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

​@@armslength2618 So you are making a false argument for what gain? The walls are generally aluminum Luan or Azdel then aluminum studs, wood blocks inside, Azdel and fiberglass. Not as strong as steel, but not as weak as you may think. If not secured properly, then yes, a failure will eventually occure.

[@matt4262]

Even skyscrapers flex with the weather. Bridges flex with weight and weather. Flex adjusts, rigid breaks.

[@buzzbuzz5724]

As always, well thought out, honest and informative. Thanks JD for talking about this subject and offering you experience and opinion.

[@TheDesertdawg1]

JD. You better go weigh your Coachman before you remove anything. Even add water you might haul. We want to see your numbers and how close you are with your ford. Would be a nice break from frame talk.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Did you not watch the video where they do deflection testing with strain gauges?

[@mattsmith3305]

Very informative! Just when I thought I knew everything about RVs, you teach us something else.

[@donaldpereira2652]

High end Living Quarters horse trailers are gooseneck trailers, and they've figured out how to build walk in front bedrooms without making the trailer overly high. Thinking I'd like to see you compare them.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Example of a horse trailer with a 6ft+ tall front walkable area please? I know a lot more about Horse Trailers and how they are built than you might think.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Unless it has no air conditioner, it's nearly impossible to get the space for a full walkable front area.

[@donaldpereira2652]

I had a 1995 Trails West four horse gooseneck trailer, with a front tack room, that I bought in 1998. In all those years, I never had a horse injury, or an issue with the trailer. Then, in August 2019, at 11PM, we set out on an 8 hour trip to the northern California coast. 30 minutes in, we got on the freeway, set the cruise and settled in for our night of driving.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Trail West trailers were always relatively short, and had short upper decks as well. I think the Max Gross vehicle weight rating on one was 12,000 lb.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Also, the upper deck was only about 4.5 ft tall. Remember, the vast majority of issues people are having are with RVs that are over 42 ft long, weight more than 17,000 lb, and our full profile (over 6ft of headroom) and lived and traveled in full time.

[@lorenc8010]

This just brings home the point you always make..... Upgrade your suspension!

[@jmac1099]

It’s not the flex that’s the problem, it’s a ridged structure on top of a frame that flexes and the connection fails. Loading is a big one, ride quality is another. Not have a bedroom slide probably makes a huge difference as it adds so much weight and take so much strength out of the walls

[@jeffreyhanks551]

I have a Montana High Country 383TH….if you know how it is designed it may be the ideal way to keep from overloading the front storage as it has very little compared to most….it does however have a massive amount of storage under the rear bathroom and rear bedroom. I haven’t had any problems but that is not to say I won’t in the future. Just with all the talk about spreading out your cargo to act as a counterbalance to not overload the pin weight….don’t give the option to do that. Especially since a dealer or manufacturer never explains this….they just boast about their huge front storage compartments. And yes I am no different not being informed I would have been one to load up mine, if it had a huge front storage compartment. Thanks for all the information you have tried so hard and spent a lot of time trying to gather.

[@marketshare3969]

There are a lot more things going on structurally than any one has hit on yet with 5th weal frames, if this was evaluated as a ground structure they would address seismic consideration, lengths, and deflection, heat created from Highway temperatures with expansion and contraction evaluation included, and most likely the outcome would be to put an expansion joint in the house structure where horizontal from from pin-box drops down to vertical to alleviate movement and structural damage along with cosmetic damage. Not sure anyone has ever taken into consideration the amount of deflection that occurs in horizontal steel when it is loaded and driven down the highway. Place a chronograph/seismic meter on a large fifth wheel loaded and run it down 5000 miles of the US Highway and see where your engineering takes you. There is absolutely no excuse for inferior welds and hardware missing on any frame that they are finding in some of their investigations. 👊👍😎

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Totally and completely agree, unequivocally. No excuse for horrible welds, no excuse for poor craftsmanship. That said, look at today's workforce.....

[@user-pp2ze4yq3m]

@@BigTruckBigRV-- But don't look too long or you may find yourself feeling ill. :( We took personal pride in our workmanship my entire life. I sometimes wonder now if that has become a lost art. :(

[@janehargis9301]

Thank you, thank you. I’ve wondered about this since I started researching 1.5 years ago. It’s definitely an underserved topic and is much appreciated.

[@HSTWXMAN]

As one of the gooseneck commenters, this was a good video.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Thank you sir

[@gregwaltman6539]

JD I think your doing a excellent job explaining this frame flex/failure issues. I'm by no means a engineer but I do have a lot of mechanical experience being a farmer/rancher, there's plenty of blame to go around and every situation is completely different. I do feel there are manufacturing issues, both on the frame builders and on the RV manufacturer, poor workmanship and under designing to keep things cheap is definitely a issue in my opinion, that being said RV's are also being over used for what they are designed for by the manufacturer. However I feel that is on the industry as a whole because when you buy a RV there's no company that spells out the limitations of these RV's because it was cancel a lot of sales do to the expectation of the consumer not being met! The industry as a whole needs to step up and do a better job of educating the consumer!

[@barrycooper450]

Thank you! Great explanation!

[@krazedkamper]

Very informative, thank you.

[@armslength2618]

It's a good thing to present some of the differences between these two technologies. However I would still build my next RV on a decked gooseneck. First, the kind of flex that's killing a lot of fiver frames, from photographic evidence at least, is indeed up-down twist around the lateral axis, of the forward box member not side-to-side. The massive I-beams of the gneck resist vertical forces and vertical kinds of flex that fatigue a fiver box frame, even though they permit a little torsional and sideways flex. But the converging top rails of the gneck also resist a lot of the horizontal stacking forces that the welds of the RV fifth wheel forward floor rails have to deal with. So the overall stronger front end of the gooseneck would eliminate the vast majority of typical fifth-wheel frame failures in that area. The gooseneck hitch structure would not serve as a bedroom of course, but it doesn't need to. A streamlined enclosure fanning up over the gneck could carry smaller amounts of storage, such as bedding or clothing or hay feed. The living area starts behind the hitch, just like a receiver-pull. The main purpose of a gooseneck trailer is superior stability, handling, and capacity compared to a receiver-pull; not a little more living space. If you need that much interior space, a converted highway transport pup-trailer and convention highway tractor would give you far more volume for the length of the rig. And be far stronger and more stable. For the greater strength and stability of the gooseneck structure over the 5th wheel though, I'm prepared to carry around more structural steel weight. Second, when you see the kind of fixes to cracking done in the repair factory in Indiana, it's mostly to make the nose much stiffer and stronger (and heavier). Flimsy fifth-wheel alu-frame nose sidewalls and covering don't add a whole lot of strength at all to the complete structure. Better to let the gooseneck take care of that from the get-go. If you want a more monocoque type construction (like a BMW body/chassis) you need to use steel skin or impregnated epoxy foam-fiberglass sandwich like a boat hull. Third, there's still a substantial amount of space between rails of a gooseneck. You may have to run tanks longer and shallower, but not too much. You could even sling them a few inches lower over the axles, still allowing maximum travel. Conventional fifth wheel structure is still more just a matter of manufacturing convenience than necessity, like using flat walls instead of aerodynamic formed walls is for example.

[@bethlong9126]

I just wanted to mention that there are gooseneck trailers that have holding tanks between the cross members and RV living quarters sitting on top of the frame. Living Quarters Horse trailers have a living area at the front (ours has a slide) and a horse area in the back. The tanks and components are the same ones you would find in any RV. Some horse trailer manufacturers are now making toy haulers too because there is a demand for a sturdier trailer than a conventional toy hauler. Our LQ horse trailer is 8' wide and 34' long. Dry weight is 8700lbs and GVWR is 17,300. This is a fairly short LQ horse trailer, many are well over 40'. The holding tanks on our trailer are a 50 gallon fresh water tank which sits under the pantry cabinet, a 39 gallon grey tank and a 39 gallon black tank. The gray and black tanks are on the underside of the frame between the cross members.

[@kevinbarry71]

A very good video. Makes it easy for the average person to grasp this. Simply put, anything that moves flexes. It is impossible to make something rigid enough that it doesn't flex, if you did, it would break. If you look at a tractor-trailer, both the tractor and the trailer are built wit C channel framing. This allows flex.

[@fonnfour]

JD, take a look at a Sundowner toy hauler trailer. It is a gooseneck trailer. They have sleeping compartments but are designed for hauling cars vice motorcycles or cars. The design is totally different than a conventional 5th wheel but it backs your discussion points.

[@russellriggan2088]

At the 23:07 mark you commented about re-evaluating how you load your 5th wheel. IMHO, this is the most responsible thing we as an rv'er can do, because every KZbinr who makes a video about frame flex i would guess they are full timers, & 1. Take everything they can possibly pack into rhe basement, and 2. Have accumulated even more stuff through the years. I think i need to get out to my storage space, pull out all the junk in my passthrough & do some housecleaning.

[@michaelsullivan1052]

I appreciate your videos trying to get clarity on frame flex problems. I’m convinced the industry is building trailers that can’t handle the rigors of how these trailers are being used at the price points people are willing or able to pay. I can’t see myself buying a fifth wheel trailer from any manufacturer if I intend to drag it all over the country. I think it’s best to go with a lighter fiberglass unit if you want to pull it over our rough roads to see the country. Maybe get a 5th wheel if you don’t intend to put many miles on it.

[@texillini1]

As a musician, I presume that you create your own bumper music for your channels? I like them.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

I don't, but I could I suppose. Thanks!

[@timhammond691]

Have you taken you rig and have it weighed, truck separately from the RV and with? It's really an eye opener to find out how much pin weight there is and the probability that the truck is overloaded as per the GVWR on the factory sticker. From the videos I've watched and the factory trips you have shown, it appears that there is blame everywhere but generally the least is on the frame manufacturer. That of course is if the frame doesn't have any defective components or welds and the final manufacturer builds within the design spec's. The end user has some responsibility to load the unit properly and then there is the problem with the road surfaces and speeds involved with moving down the highway. Like one person said "It's like taking your house through an earthquake every time you move from one place to another!" It seems like the RV manufacturer could design the top structure to be isolated from the upper frame of the trailer that would allow the frame to flex without transferring the torque to the rigid structure of the body. Most of these problems have been brought to light due to the major increase in demand for rv's and reduction in workforce, particularly experienced workers, at the beginning and during the covid outbreak. This is showing up now there are miles accumulating and the repetitive hitch and unhitch with more fulltime users seeing the problem the most. It doesn't look like there is an easy fix to the issue and nobody wants to take the responsibility and cost to correct the problem. It's going to be important for future buyers of these units as the obvious problems with the cosmetics, i.e. cabinets and some wall flex issues are not as apparent at rest and unhitched and could be "adjusted" by someone that may not be so forthright to advise the buyer that there is a problem. There are shady people everywhere, dealers and individuals alike so try and be as careful as possible. There has been an increase in RV inspections as well and this could prove worth the fee to save on buying a potentially bad RV.

[@iceman942]

All steel structures have to have twist and sway. If they didn't have the twist and sway the steel would fail. Take a steel tower if they were ridged they would eventually fail and fall down. A ridged steel framed RV would destroy everything inside in a short period of time and the inside would look like a bomb went off inside. Gooseneck trailers are more ridged but they still have twisting going on. In my opinion a ridged trailer of any type would be very difficult to tow because the trailer would bounce up and down the road. Please confirm this if you can?

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Flexing also absorbs energy. Sometimes people think any movement at all needs to have a gusset, The reality is oftentimes you want movement as a form of energy absorption.

[@armslength2618]

That's the difference between sprung vs un-sprung weight. Suspensions are there to absorb and release the energy of inertia going against road irregularities. And to damp vibrations to dissipate much of the energy so it doesn't keep sloshing into and out of the springs. Unsprung weight will get tossed around a lot. Which is why you want to keep your wheels relatively light, and not contain big electric motors in the hubs. You can make a truck frame extremely rigid but with the right suspension you'll still have a smooth ride. Same with a trailer. Problem is, most people don't know or care that a quality suspension on a trailer is important too. Mostly because they're not riding back there when everything is getting slammed around.

[@davecamilleri9411]

We keep getting deeper and deeper into construction and trying to figure out how failure occurs, this is good. Engineers are paid to do this and when a design fails it should fall back on them. In the realm of pickup trucks, we have C channel frames and boxed steel frames, the difference is that boxed steel frames are rigid and don't flex as much as C channel frames they each have there place and different characteristics. With the front of 5th wheel frames being designed mostly of boxed tube steel, the amount of flex that is allowable is very small. When a design fails because the tube steel is stressed beyond it's tolerance resulting in fatigue and ultimately failure, the solution is to increases the thickness or the size of the member. If you look at Lipperts new 5th wheel frame it uses what looks to be a 6x6 tube steel front crossmember, much more rigid than a 2x6 square tube. Every piece of structural steel flexes, but when the load increases to a point where the steel is stressed beyond it's elastic point it wont return and fatigue will start, repeating the cycle will ultimately cause a failure. Typically 2x6 tube steel as used in the front section of most 5th wheels is pretty stiff vertically, but when a load is applied to the side it is much less stiff. What really needs to be determined in most of these discussions is the amount of load that the front frame is designed to handle and tested for. When I see people stating that their pin weight on a trailer with an empty pin weight of 2350 lbs is over 4400 lbs there is a major problem. People that think a 3000 pound payload is a lot need to understand that 100 gallons of fresh water just used up 800 pounds of payload, add another 60-80 pounds of propane, food clothes, add a washer and dryer and 280 lbs for a generator and we quickly become over loaded. When I was still working I would make food runs every other week 320 miles round trip. I had a Haulmark Grizzly 28' enclosed gooseneck trailer with a large overhang similar to a fifth wheel. The main difference was the amount of 2x6 tube steel in the front of that trailer overhang was three times the amount of steel in any fifth wheel frame I have seen. I never noticed any flex in the front of that trailer over thousands of miles and many inspections. I typically loaded that trailer with 4-6 full pallets of canned food, plus a pallet of milk and two freezers filled with beef and chicken. The trailer was rated at 14k, but I was typically closer to 18k. I set the trailer on a set of scales one day and moved full pallets with a pallet jack to determine how far forward I could load full pallets and not overload my single rear wheel one ton truck. It was quite interesting to see the bridge effect of loading heavy pallets between the front axle and front of the trailer. Usually the very front of the floor of the trailer would only transfer about 50-60% of the weight to the pin (ball) I had it figured out very well in case I got pulled over by the weight police. I even upped the ante and bought a one ton dually to haul this trailer to keep myself legal. One day I got pulled over by Montana DOT and was told I was going to get weighed for compliance. I was empty at the time. The officer asked me what my license plate was and I told him State of Wyoming, 30 minutes later he came back and told me he wasn't going to weigh me, but I was overweight for my driver's license with a total GVWR of 28,000 lbs and that I needed a CDL for this much weight. I ended up going back to my single rear wheel truck because I didn't want a CDL. I asked the officer what was the Montana law for RV's, and he said they didn't care about RV's, you could do whatever you wanted and not be bothered. We can agree to disagree, but I don't buy the story by the Lippert engineers about the RV walls being an intergral part of the frame structure. The walls could account for a small amount of load in certain conditions, but if they were taking loads all the time the walls will fail they just aren't strong enough. Lag bolts through wood are fasteners to hold the walls in place, not designed for loads. I recently watched a video of a repair center in Indiana that welded in many pieces of aluminum to reinforce a wall where the aluminum studs had torn loose and then they repaired the fiberglass. They added pieces of 2x6's into the wall to tie into with longer lags bolts and sure they stiffened up the wall, but they didn't fix the main problem of the front part of the frame being able to flex 2 inches. Their fix will fail again! I am thinking I will go out to my Solitude 310gk and place a dial indicator on the pin box and then apply a jack under the king pin and see how much deflection there is. I can't find any frame damage on my trailer and I can't notice any deflection when I hook up or unhook, so I am curious to see how much deflection there is. I am going to guess less that .250 "

[@BigTruckBigRV]

I pretty much agree with everything you said. The one variable to consider is that this is primarily only impacting 21/22 Fifth wheels ans toy haulers over 17k lbs, 42ft+, Full profile units that have found to be lacking the bolts and are being used as full time units that get towed alot. The vast majority of large fifth wheels aren't having this issue.

[@bellacarroll]

I appreciate you and what you've done here, so I hate to be critical, but that 20-30 lb increase in mattress weight claim you made at the beginning would mean that after a few years, mattresses would weigh 500lbs. I assure you that is not so... lol

[@stevejernigan4371]

After looking at the posts about the upper deck and maybe the rest of the body. It looks like the factory is putting wood inside the tubes of the wall framing and then running lag bolts through the chassis into the framing. Thus if this wood ever gets wet, it rots, the lag bolts break free and big problems. It seems to me that even if the wood never gets wet there are still a lot of variables in this style of attachment. It would seem like they should design them to where even if water was to get inside that it would not cause the structure to fail. After all, we are on a water world and sooner or later water will find everything. Maybe they should bolt the super structure to the chassis in the same manner as the king pin is bolted to the pin box. And they should find a way to ensure that all the bolts are put in there since no matter what happens(rotten wood or missing bolts) it comes down to a series of events that cause a cascading failure in the frame centering around these attachment points.

[@Lendon68]

Mechanical Engineer here , issue is length of overhang on these rigs and where the king pin is at on the far front of that overhang with that weight . , if you look at semi truck and trailer set ups you will see the position of the 5th wheel and king pin is not dealing with 6 plus feet of transition with weight on it . Solution would be to shorten the overhang and bring the king pin back. Gooseneck is tapered to limit load and there is no weight on that gooseneck area above it .However this brings clearance issues. So you have to over engineer that front frame area to compensate for that

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Remember, the allowable movement without the structure on top is only an inch or less. The structure creates a rigid platform. It is technically over engineered according to them. I don't know to what degree though

[@lyfandeth]

I have an unfortunate habit of spilling a little coffee while reading in bed. So, a waterproof, dust-mite proof, mattress cover protects my mattress. It goes in the laundry with the sheets. So 20# per month in skin or dust? Nope. They're not expensive, and can be fitted like a sheet, or zipped up tight.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

I think it's around 20lbs per couple of years.

[@cliftonperryman]

Perhaps the rv manufactures need to build flex joints throughout the body to allow the box to "give" as the frame flexes?

[@BigTruckBigRV]

They actually do on the curb side upper deck.

[@cliftonperryman]

@@BigTruckBigRV ok, but maybe it should be universal and/or standard above a certain size rig?

[@kingjames8283]

For me on my 5th wheel, I don't want a gooseneck trailer design but I want that gooseneck hitch like your 5th wheel RV has so that instead of riding on a small 5th wheel plate, the trailer is riding on a ball in the back of the truck. While it would be nice to use my semi-truck to move my 5th wheel RV (which it can do) the fact is the wiring harness and connectors are incompatible between a commercial truck and a RV trailer. As most farmers have trucks with the gooseneck ball hitches in the backs of their trucks, I'd rather have a gooseneck box instead of the conventional kingpin boxes RV's come with. Also the latest information just out, it's been learned that Grand Design and various other 5th wheel RV builders made RV's that were overweight before they left the factory and that the mfg ID plate on our trailers has false tare weight information and it's many of these trailers that are suffering from frame damage due to being grossly overweight. In other words, many of our trailers were overweight before we filled the water tank and before we put our personal possessions, generators in the trailer. There is a huge fall-out over this issue and a call for federal regulations on the RV manufacturing industry that RV's must meet the same safety criteria as the automotive industry including recalls as needed.

[@jimlarkin1400]

I agree they have to be built to accommodate the tanks the issue I have is the quality of the welds and the area toward the front riser and pin box. that is the failure points that need to be over done .with gussets and bracing and this area doesn't need to be tanks and any compartments built in to it. and I have seen some of the tubing with very thin walls which is not acceptable to use in that area.

[@Captain-Awesome]

Question: I switched my king pin to the GenY executive torsion gooseneck on my Brinkley Z3610. Was that a mistake? Everyone seemed to think it was okay buuutt, everyone isn’t going to pay for my RV repairs.

[@ericeckley5615]

I have a 5,500 pound G.T.W. trailer for work, that I pull daily pretty close to the max. Would you recommend gas or diesel 2500 Long bed regular cab 4x4 and I also plan on towing a small dual axle travel trailer with about 7,000 pound GTW?

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Either should be fine honestly. Most modern trucks can easily handle that amount of weight when properly towing, weight distributed and secured.

[@garyarsenault5879]

How is the body of a rv attached to frame, if for example does the manufacturer use lag bolts,then what does the bolts go into. I have a 44ft trailer gooseneck that has living quarter in front I have ben to the factory where they are built, they construction the frame then sidewalls are welded to frame ,sides are applied as so is the interior, its not put together like a 5 wheel. A 5 wheel the walls are applied to the chassis, what holds the walls to frame?

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Absolutely outstanding point my friend. Because frames are purchased by RV manufacturers to build on top of, they don't weld they're structure to the steel frame. Often times it's aluminum that is screwed. This process absolutely could be improved.

[@smirnoff242]

Just have to look at heavy duty flatbeds for semi trucks. They're all built with an arch just to compensate with the flex of the weight

[@chrishuebner2547]

JD Another great video. Can you explain why someone would want to replace a conventional pin box with a gooseneck style? I was always under the impression that a gooseneck pin box can concentrate loads back through the frame? Thanks

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Thank you. The biggest issue with switching to a gooseneck is ensuring that it doesn't apply too much leverage to the front section of your RV.. think of it like loosening lug nuts on a wheel. The longer the bar, the more leverage you're applying. That said, right now only the reese goose box is the approved method that I'm aware of.

[@jimjohnson3244]

@@BigTruckBigRVbut why would you want to change from the pin box to the gooseneck style? What would be the big advantage of doing so? Thank you for all of the time and effort you put into these videos. It’s been quite an education for me.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

​@@jimjohnson3244the biggest advantage is that you remove the huge and heavy hitch from the bed. Makes using the truck far more convenient when not hitched up. Also, it allows for some lean when towing. The RV isn't secured to a semi static plate. I'd imagine that could also relieve some stress while towing.

[@F450FTW]

Wonder what would happen if these frames had torque tubes engineered in to them?

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Torque tubes are primarily designed to prevent a load on top of the trailer from leaning or swaying too much while traveling. I'm not sure at work too but have much benefit to a fifth wheel.

[@gordon3730]

Its really going to matter when ppl die because a frame fails. This is exactly why this industry needs regulation. You have ppl loading up trailers as large as a 18 wheeler with no regard for weight restrictions. TheY use vehicles that under tow. Now frames are failing and everyone is throwing a dart at moving wheel. Then other ppl don't want to know because they don't want to be out the money. eventually there will be horrific accidents and will have the truth. For now I've told all my family never ever be behind a RV. And don't buy a used fifth wheel.

[@davidtannersr.1670]

You need to scale each axle n load the correct way😊

[@user-pp2ze4yq3m]

With 8 years and nearly 5 months of experience -- living fulltime and offgrid in our 33' 5th wheel (and currently moving into our 2020 Torque M-373 -- I can tell you that the rockers/equalizers between any two axles tend to balance each other out and equally share the load. So it seems to me that almost regardless of how you load the 5th wheel, all weight *not* on the pin will be split equally between the 2 or 3 axles. This reality is confirmed every time we roll across the scales.

[@Itsa_Mea]

@@user-pp2ze4yq3m you have to consider left to right. For example my old 2007 was considerably heavier on the right side. Enough for it to lean until it was adressed. The right side had the fridge, sink, storage cabinets, our EtoW bed slide, the Blackstone in the basement, and a 3500k generator in the front storage for a few examples.

[@user-pp2ze4yq3m]

@@Itsa_Mea-- Due to the crown of any civilized road (higher in the middle and lower to the edges for proper drainage), any builder worth his Momma's milk would put the heavier stuff on the driver's side to offset the natural "lean". On our '94 33' 5th wheel with the rear kitchen, the sink/stove/microwave/refrigerator were all on the driver's side.

[@Itsa_Mea]

@@user-pp2ze4yq3m based on what you're telling me, my old 5er was set up for Australia then. Interesting.

[@user-pp2ze4yq3m]

@@Itsa_Mea-- Are Australian roads lower down the center line and higher along the edges?

[@williambline4057]

I have a Diamond C 38ft flat bed. It’s on an engineered beam and the deck is cambered. To allow for flex. And it has a torque tube built into the cross members the length of the trailer. No comparison. That’s like comparing a Navy Destroyer to a sail boat. Not the same.

[@williambline4057]

Love your channel. I’m getting ready to enter the fifth wheel market. You do a great job of telling both sides of the story from the consumer and the manufacturer viewpoint. Keep up the good work.

[@Itsa_Mea]

JD, is your a Rhinobox frame or conventional like the 1621?

[@Itsa_Mea]

10:56 Nevermind. You have the traditional. That us the design that is failing. That is also the design that failed on my 2007 Forest River. I have not seen a Rhinobox Space saver fail yet. If you did, let me know.

[@Itsa_Mea]

Also, do you remember what the engineer said on how much stronger the new Rhinobox Space saver is? I thought I heard him say 40%.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

I think something like 30 or 40 percent

[@paulavery366]

Unless Lippert and the RV manufacturer have fully analysed stresses and deflections, using finite element analysis and strain-gauge placement, they have just winged it and deserve to be challenged in court Any frame that fails under normal road and travel conditions (acceleration, shock, thermal, user loading) should be grounds for buy-back and compensation for all losses. The Lippert factory tours have shown no evidence of structural analysis or product testing. Normal loads should be multiplied by 10x to 15x to accommodate the loads possible in an accident.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

I'm not sure if you saw the video of their research and development which did do strain gauge testing

[@JoshHefnerX]

I agree w/ most of what you said here - however when some make/models have higher rates of failure than others, it needs to be examined - was it a mfg shortcoming, or a design shortcoming? If it's not from poor workmanship/materials then it would have to be a design issue. Sure customer abuse could be an issue but again, there's always some customer abuse to all rv's and if one fails more than others.... And for anyone that doesn't understand that literally everything flexes ice, even concrete, as does glass..

[@BigTruckBigRV]

In almost every case, regardless of a weld quality, it has been determined that bolts were missing during the installation process by the RV manufacturer.

[@JoshHefnerX]

@@BigTruckBigRV Manufacturing failure then. Par for the course in the RV field it seems. I get there's a price point that needs to be met, but the things I've seen is pure lack of giv-a-damn.. No other industry would the poor qc be acceptable.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

​@JoshHefnerX it's really more than a price thing, it's a weight thing first. As you can see in many newer units, they spend a ton of money on things you can see and touch but all that weight comes with a price, a lighter frame. Hear me out plz. If you have a toy hauler with a 20,000 GVWR and a Dry weight of 16,000lbs (very typical of large toy haulers, and specifically the ones with this issue), the frame alone weighs around 5,000-6,000lbs. Imagine if the frame weight went up by 2,000lbs worth of thicker steel, added bracing, and more reinforcement. WHAT would that do to the cargo capacity that people claim they need to carry their Razr which weighs 3,000lbs plus all their gear, supplies, and stuff? That means the RV would have the same GVWR but a cargo capacity of 2,000lbs for EVERYTHING else. Remember, RV manufacturers get new customers because they dangle really nice interiors and cargo capacities. The frame needs to support this weight and often times needs to be as light as possible. Couple that with the lack of proper securement to the super structure and you get problems.

[@ColtonRMagby]

Gooseneck uses a ball in the bed floor, whereas a fifth wheel uses something that stick up above the bed. I'd rather have the gooseneck because the king pin lockjaws on a fifth wheel are a more involved repair, which means it'll cost more money to fix an issue with that than a gooseneck issue. If someone wants a fifth wheel camper, a dry van that goes behind a semi is better than most of the options at dealers in terms of frame flex.

[@spatton7875]

Personally I don't want the frame built so rigid it doesn't flex. I want it built to not fail from what the average user would consider reasonable usage and built strong enough to use a gooseneck hitch. I don't feel like that's too much to ask for when paying $100k or more for an rv. The frame, suspension, and tires should never be the limiting factor. They should be robust enough that they can handle being loaded and driven on rough roads. Frame failure is an easy problem to eliminate. Yes there will be give and take. There will be some loss of storage space and gain in weight but due to the catastrophic result of a failure I think this is acceptable.

[@georgeholmes3411]

How many miles do you have on your 5th wheel?

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Maybe 5,000.. actually closer to 7k.

[@georgeholmes3411]

@BigTruckBigRV that's good. A few years back I asked some Montana 3820FK owners and they started showing issues around 8,000 miles.

[@i70show]

Under engineered, not enough support for the approximate weight. Half ass welding. There I put the real reasons down since no one will say them on video.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

I would TOTALLY and COMPLETELY and UNEQUIVOCALLY agree....if the vast majority of RVs on the road were experiencing the same issue.. most aren't. That said, they SHOULD make improvements when needed and where needed. This might be strengthing areas on heavier, longer RVs.

[@dalehansen5050]

Gooseneck is on a ball that can move sideways,fifth wheel is locked tight to the truck, on a semi fifth wheel the truck is designed to flex.

[@user-uz7xb6rn7x]

What are your thoughts on using a trailer saver fifth wheel hitch , looks like this hitch would take a lot of the shock from the roads and such, therefore relieving stress to the camper?

[@BigTruckBigRV]

At this point, I would stick to only approved items. I'm not sure if the trailer saver is approved.

[@F450FTW]

I run a BD5 trailer saver hitch, it's so smooth. I researched for a long time before I bought it. It does a really great job isolating road shock from my truck that would otherwise be transferred to the pin box.

[@F450FTW]

Never heard of a manufacturer approving 5th wheel hitches with the exception of switching to a gooseball setup. I can understand that because it is a different dynamic on the trailer itself. If I am wrong please correct me as I would like to see a list of approved 5th wheel hitches.

[@user-uz7xb6rn7x]

JD, I am referring to the trailer saver hitch in the bed of the truck, not changing the hitch on the camper.

[@user-uz7xb6rn7x]

@@BigTruckBigRV JD, I am referring to the trailer saver hitch in the bed of the truck, not changing hitch on the camper.

[@markadams5823]

I understand the flexing. But I just don't like the breaking.

[@shearenergy8203]

Opinions are great but really engineering should be consulted before making an opinion

[@BigTruckBigRV]

I'm sorry, what are you referring to? Engineering was consulted, and my information here is based off of that engineering.

[@patrickhamburg8113]

Grand design is building crap trailers I saw a video of someone's trailer and they showed the poor welding that was done by lippert and I mean poor. So no quality control from lippert and no quality control from grand design. They obviously did not inspect the frame before building on it. Also they did not put all the lag bolts in to hold the walls in place. There was alot of the bolts missing. You can try and explain this crap away all u want but the bottom line is they are not inspecting there work for quality. It sure seems like ur trying to defend these guys

[@Jayhawk226]

My thought is that water damage is a bad thing in a house and worse in an RV. I think the mfg need to be exceptionally careful about water, and so do owners. Alos the tend to put storage right where you have it and the blame you loading that up.

[@greghoneycutt1163]

Your tanks really shouldn’t matter because I’d think you would dump your tanks before you travel anyway.

[@kckettridge]

@@greghoneycutt1163 I wouldn't think that since the tanks are below the elevated area of the frame (upper deck) wouldn't have that big of an effect on the upper deck which is where the issues seem to be. Watching all of JD's videos on frame flex and other KZbin videos, I am re-evaluating what I carry in our 5th wheen now, even though we already travel pretty light. Keystone has 5200# axles on our 5th wheel and yet the dry weight on our rig is 10,550# which I can't understand either.

[@Jayhawk226]

I wasn't referring to tanks.

[@crappieworldlivescanner1114]

Dang all you have to do is search rv cracked frame and lippert has had frames cracked way back not just now

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Yeah, it certainly does happen. Same if you research cracked truck frames.

[@newenglandrvadventures]

@dunesport rv like 🧐🤔

[@user-pp2ze4yq3m]

Notice those massive triangular steel gussets between the elevated front platform on your gooseneck and the lower flat bed level? Those are completely missing on any 5th wheel frame I've ever seen and that could easily be the reason WHY they are experiencing excessive frame flex in this area -- compounded by slide openings which attempt to bridge this critical portion of the frame (like on your 5th wheel) and IMHO that can only make things worse. :( Any slide opening forward of that critical juncture between the two floor levels is part of the problem IMHO. :(

[@BigTruckBigRV]

I actually don't disagree with some of this. Because I'm not a frame engineer though it's hard to say why they do and don't do some things. Cost is a factor but not as much as you might think.

[@user-pp2ze4yq3m]

@@BigTruckBigRV-- I'm sure that cost and weight will always be primary considerations with our infamous Merikun business model where low bid remains King with very few exceptions. Cars/boats/planes aren't built to last forever and neither are RVs. In keeping with their low bid mandate, Lippert will forever and always be trapped between a rock and hard place -- damned if they do and damned if they don't. :(

[@donaldpereira2652]

I have a 22 foot 82 Layton fifthwheel rv that became deteriorated, that I never used. I stripped it down to the bare frame, thinking I would build a flatbed on it. My thinking is to build a 4 foot dovetail with ramps, which would give me an 18 foot flatbed. After calculations, I'd never be able to use it for anything more than a car trailer. Thinking I might find someone I can just give it to.

[@donaldpereira2652]

@@user-pp2ze4yq3m Lippert MUST ensure that the welders they hire can make a better weld than I could as a teenager...I've been watching this for a few years, and what I'm seeing is very poor welds...despite what JD shows on his channel...I believe, Lippert needs to look at their Welders, and possibly cull some.

[@user-pp2ze4yq3m]

@@donaldpereira2652-- I agree. Those not capable of quality workmanship they can be proud of need to go the way of the Dodo bird. I learned to weld in HS and the worst lines I *ever* laid down were better than much of the crapmanshi! I'm seeing. :(

[@kylepokorski6045]

With all of these metallurgy problems in a lot of industries I wonder if there is some blame there

[@jamesstever8335]

FOAM fill walls with a few aluminums tube around windows and corners "IS NOT" a reinforcement for the "steel" frame. The Frame should be designed to carry the "ENTIRE" weight of that unit. You are either misinformed or you are spinning on behalf of the manufactures. Either way this is BS you are spreading.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Why is it so hard for you to understand that what you're asking virtually impossible on a trailer with a 40ft+ span? Almost any engineering student especially structural and mechanical engineers will tell you that creating a frame over that distance that will not flex or move is impossible. Putting a rigid box on top of it that cannot flex or move is impossible. They have to work together or the structure will fail. There's no way around it. The problem with the content that's going out is that it's a very technical topic with folks who can't understand the engineering or structural aspects of it. If you can find an engineer who could construct a frame that has to meet certain weight criteria, plus carry a rigid structure on top of it with integration throughout it with zero ability to allow the box and frame too reinforce each other, I would love for you to share an example. Please don't say gooseneck trailers, horse trailers, or cargo trailers, because they all flex and some far more than RVs.

[@jimlarkin1400]

why is it so hard to understand that the pin area needs to have certified welders and more bracing. I do not agree with College degree Engineers that build from teaching and not real world experience. not trying to create a fight here just pointing out that people built better before engineers got involved.@@BigTruckBigRV

[@riccochet704]

@@BigTruckBigRV It's not the frames simply flexing. They're breaking. The tube steel is splitting/cracking. The bubble gum welds are coming apart. Some of those welds, that LIC says are done by a machine, look like something I did 30 years ago when I got my first welder and was learning. So they're being done by people, and incompetent people at that. No way a lot of those welds would pass certification. Sloppy, chunky, burnt through or poor penetration. Yes, frames are going to flex. They have to. They shouldn't be failing. But they are.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

​@@riccochet704I'm sorry, when did Lippert or I state that any of the welds except for the main I beam stitching were done by machine? They have over 600 welders manually assembling them. I'm sure human error, laziness, and many other factors impact their workforce at times, like any other. I can bet you, those same welders go home and weld an amazing BBQ pit for their friends and family. When it's a 9-5 job, most aren't going to do TikToc welds.

[@user-rb6qe5md8n]

Thanks Captain obvious and yes you can build a flooring system into a gooseneck it just cost more you get what you pay for. All frame builders and rv manufactures are trying to save money that’s the problem. They build them cheap

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Lol

[@peteengard9966]

Frame flex is the entirely wrong term. Frame breakage would be the proper term.

[@United_Kangaroo1992]

But there's still plenty of comments saying there should be zero flex

[@jimlarkin1400]

you know we are not argueing that flex is going to happen but the welds are failing due to non certified welders in place come on lets get serious here. it is all about cutting cost for profit and sacrificing safety.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Jim, everyone who has been commenting has had different things they complain about. Some say Flex, some say RV super structure, some say design, some say engineering, some say all RVs need to be able to go through anything an owner could subject it to.... Fact, that's been said several times

[@jimlarkin1400]

the majority of the "Frame Flex" is Frame failure due to poor welds and garbage Material 1/8 wall on a pin box is not acceptable everyone supporting the corporations are just as guilty as they are this needs to get resolved. not just for safety of the owner but others on the raods. no excuse for this to be going on@@BigTruckBigRV

[@BigTruckBigRV]

​@@jimlarkin1400brother, are you seriously ignoring the fact that almost all instances of "frame flex" and "failure" are occuring because there are missing bolts from the front section of specific Grand Design units? The ones with this issue are also experiencing the excessive frame flex which ultimately leads to failure. Poor welds just exacerbates this once it starts happening. Regardless of what side you take or what you believe, if you're being unbiased and honest you will see that this is in the case nearly every time.

[@jimlarkin1400]

really lag screws into wood giving strength to a frame supporting 2 to 3 thousand lbs come on that is hillbilly construction theory.@@BigTruckBigRV

[@BigTruckBigRV]

​@@jimlarkin1400again, Id agree if it were happening to a higher percentage of units. The correct attachment (from what I've been told) AND on units that aren't experiencing failure is: A permanent construction adhesive, 6 lag bolts on each side (12 total), pre drilled and glued, 6 large screws (12 total) from the bottom on each side, pre drilled and glued. I'm just guessing that it's because of this process, most manufacturers haven't had this issue.

[@Kneemako]

Show a horse trailer not a flatbed . Easy fix - build a raising ceiling over -duh- lots of words and not much talk about how to correct the issues . Horse trailers do not have these failures so- all of this info interesting but not necessarily helpful. You claim the reason you cannot raise the floor is headroom- again, make a ceiling “pop-up. All of the bodies of the RV could be attached with flexible attachment, so many ways to fix all of the issues.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

You are saying to do things you can easily avoid by going with RVs that don't meet the criteria for problem units. Mid profile units rarely ever deal with this problem. You're assuming some oddly popable and technologically advanced unit is going to be appealing to folks who want a traditional full profile RV.

[@jamesstever8335]

The goose neck transferers the force properly to the main frame components. That same or similar concept could be applied to an RV, at least for the horizontal forces. A simple set of diagonal tube section from the pin box back to the upper platform connections, properly connected, would do a lot. But they won't do it to save COST. Learn something about engineering.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Really? Do it without compromising upper deck space?

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Also your incredibly inaccurate information about Semi Trailers (Dry Vans) was COMPLETELY wrong. But you never replied to my response.

[@jamesstever8335]

Easy@@BigTruckBigRV

[@BigTruckBigRV]

​@@jamesstever8335but it's true.

[@andrewblue47]

It’s cause most these frames are cheap trash.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Question, serious question, how much more additional weight do you think needs to be invested into the frame in terms of material and thickness to change your opinion of this? As well as what type of welder would you generally require to do the work?

[@andrewblue47]

@@BigTruckBigRV For one the welding is terrible on these lippert frames. Just gummed up welding. Maybe I’m just used to oil field welding, you don’t make it here if you don’t weld great. Also the steel is subpar, I get they use the steel from china to save money but it’s not good.

[@kevinbarry71]

Ridiculous myth about your mattress getting heavier all the time

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Why is this a myth? I just did a quick search and found just about every credible answer stating that they do gain weight over time.

[@kevinbarry71]

@@BigTruckBigRV 20 pounds a year? Ridiculous. Most permeable things gain weight overtime, including us

[@603Cummins]

​@@BigTruckBigRV mattresses do gain wait over time, but 20lbs per year would mean that after 10 years (average lifespan of a mattress) a king would have more than tripled in weight, while a queen would have close to quadrupled. Snopes has disproven this, as have others, so if you actually googled this and found "credible sources", I'm now much more suspicious of your general research capabilities.

[@jamesstever8335]

FOAM fill walls with a few aluminums tube around windows and corners "IS NOT" a reinforcement for the "steel" frame. The Frame should be designed to carry the "ENTIRE" weight of that unit. You are either misinformed or you are spinning on behalf of the manufactures. Either way this is BS you are spreading. You should be banned from KZbin for spreading this crap. But I am sure it will be my post that is taken down.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

Since you repeated your comment, I'll repeat my answer: Why is it so hard for you to understand that what you're asking virtually impossible on a trailer with a 40ft+ span? Almost any engineering student especially structural and mechanical engineers will tell you that creating a frame over that distance that will not flex or move is impossible. Putting a rigid box on top of it that cannot flex or move is impossible. They have to work together or the structure will fail. There's no way around it. The problem with the content that's going out is that it's a very technical topic with folks who can't understand the engineering or structural aspects of it. If you can find an engineer who could construct a frame that has to meet certain weight criteria, plus carry a rigid structure on top of it with integration throughout it with zero ability to allow the box and frame too reinforce each other, I would love for you to share an example. Please don't say gooseneck trailers, horse trailers, or cargo trailers, because they all flex and some far more than RVs.

[@jamesstever8335]

I have done bridge girders that defect over 2 feet, The issue is not "Flex" as you put it. The issue is "Yeilding" or failure. The way these frames are connected, and transfer forces is incredibly amateurish. It is no wonder the welds are failing, and fractures are occurring in the base material at the pin box and where the upper platform connect to the riser. And the way the standard leaf spring are connected, another place where failures are occurring, I wouldn't do with a mulch trailer let alone something that weighs in at 6 to 9 tons and 40 feet long. But your right, it most likely first year college student engineers that came up with these ideas. Especially seeing what colleges are turning out these days. This is putting the lives of RV owners and possibly other travelers on the road in danger. @@BigTruckBigRV

[@BigTruckBigRV]

​@@jamesstever8335so it seems like you do understand basic engineering principles. Given their chassis division has over 35 engineers, most I'm sure with PEs, it would probably behoove you to actually reach out to them and speak to their engineering department and ask the questions that you want answered. That way, you can argue with them and tell them about their lack of knowledge and abilities to engineer a frame.

[@jamesstever8335]

They won't talk to me. I wonder why? @@BigTruckBigRV

[@BigTruckBigRV]

​@@jamesstever8335what number did you call, who did you speak with, and what was their response? I'd be happy to get someone who will speak with you.

[@dalehansen5050]

You aren't having a problem because you are on a goose pin box

[@marketshare3969]

OR it very rarely leaves the driveway and have under a couple thousand miles on the coach.

[@BigTruckBigRV]

​​well, unless your camped out everyday spying on us you really have no idea how much we use our RV do you? We're not a vlog channel that produces personal content about our use of the RV like so many other channels. That said, we have between 5k and 7,000 mi on it. So I agree that we don't use it nearly as much as many of the full-timers who are complaining of the issues.

[@marketshare3969]

@@BigTruckBigRV are they complaining or seriously concerned about the structure of their fifth wheel investment being worthless.

[@shutupstoopid4518]

My thoughts would be to equalization of force a goose neck the triangle front beams equalize the tug, with a 5th wheel frame you're pulling on the center of one side of a square you can't equalize the force in every situation from that location of pull , like I've said hold a rope with your arms spread to your side like you're the front of a 5th wheel and have someone pull the rope from the center and your arms will form a goosekneck from the pull...equalization of force?