Tiff VS Electronic Stability Control | Fifth Gear Classic

[@aaronroberts3329]

So good story about tiff, I used to work for a company called rage as a mechanic, we produced tubular chassis off road vehicles, sub 700kg with 220bhp, I went for a filming day with one of the cars where he would be driving and about halfway through the day he casually told me the brakes were playing up a little, he didn't make a big thing about it and said he was happy to keep going so off he went racing about for camera (against an Ariel nomad) He was doing some fucking fast driving with some jumps aswell, handled it like a pro, at the end of that day he thanked us for coming shook my hand and parked it behind the trailer. I jumped in to pull it onto the trailer, put my foot on the brake (as you do) to start it up, it had absaloutely no fucking brakes at all... Nothing, and he was jumping it and kicking the arse out around corners.... Complete and utter brake failure and he hardly fucking battered a breath about it. One of the all time greatest in my eyes and also a realy decent bloke!

[@MaxSpeedMike]

1:15 "I'm not getting paid enough for this!

[@saikat0511]

ded inside

[@schrainerwinkler4801]

Our local police got a seat belt simulator for people they caught without wearing it. You slide down a little ramp and come to stop immediately. You sit in a car chair and wear a seatbelt, that thing reaches 11kmh when it stops and i can tell you, even that hurts when you get pushed into the belt. I dont want to know what this guy must feel!

[@Julian-do7bv]

Mine has saved me a few times it’s crazy how well they work

[@freddyfox5002]

The public should all have access to a facility like this to keep practicing driving tryout your life.

[@233kosta]

Hear hear! Most fatalities are caused by the fact that the only time you get to practice avoiding an RTC is immediately before it and by then it's too late to learn anything.

[@gewoontimm]

if i go there i wouldnt be practicing.. i would just play around fiding the limits of my car..

[@confusedredditor1660]

@@gewoontimm and you'd still be practicing without knowing it

[@gewoontimm]

@@confusedredditor1660 up to a degree yes.. beyond that degree its just beeing an idiot behind the wheel trying to make it flip or spin..

[@MisoElEven]

@@gewoontimm Well you have to spin it to find the limit..

[@tomhill3907]

I saw esc save the life of a Leon driver who didnt notice traffic had slowed in front of us on the m4, he moved from the outside lane to the middle lane which I was travelling in before panicking after seeing were were slowing to a crawl and swerving across lane 1 which was even slower but luckily had a gap and his next obstacle was on the hard shoulder with an exposed barrier end. By grace and technology he amazingly didn’t hit anything and the car stayed in control, absolutely amazing safety system and one that I am sure has saved and will continue to save so many lives.

[@JohnDoe-bd5sz]

One time on the motorway i changed lane to overtake and the outside lane had been damaged a bit so i ended up with the outer wheels on grass/gravel next to the center divider, i turned slightly to get onto the road with all 4 wheels, and when i got on, the car instantly began swinging the back end of the car. I would certainly never have been able to recover that myself, but the only thing that happened was the cruice control disengaged, the car made a funny noise as the ESP system did its thing and after a second or 2 i was again going in a straight line. Would have been a nasty unavoidable accident had it not been for ESP.

[@zzoinks]

@@JohnDoe-bd5sz Oh yeah, I read about that in my drivers manual. They said if one side of the car drops off onto the shoulder, the car's going to feel like its steering itself to one side. If I remember correctly, I'm supposed to turn the wheel slightly to the opposite direction to counteract the steering, don't stomp on the brakes, just let the car slow down and apply the brake _a little_ if needed. Then once I'm traveling slowly then carefully get the car back onto the road.

[@TheSaabClinicUK]

I think im right in saying the first production car to have ESC as standard across all models of the range was The Renault Laguna II in 2000. Also the first car ever in the world to get EuroNap 5 rating.

[@gravemind6536]

I believe it was. My 2003 VW Golf had ESC and have put it to the test, it was useless on that car and nothing like the modern systems in this video, Traction control and ESC were always 1 second too late to kick in sometimes they would kick in after I've corrected a problem and you could certainly get the car to skid and slide.

[@darenzy]

@@gravemind6536 Yea it had hard time reducing fwd understeer, especially in the snow. I had 2000 Audi A3 which is Golf mk4. Now I have 2007 BMW X3 which is way, way better.

[@soundseeker63]

This goes some way to explaining why nowadays White Van Man drives as if he is in a sports car, and 17-25 year old kids in their "premium" hatchbacks seem to think they are skilled racing drivers like Tiff. The cars themselves may be safer, but the technology has made people more cavalier about how they drive and also more ignorant to the laws of physics. People certainly push their luck more now than they used to!

[@edwardimray4075]

yeah very true. I turn my off alot, tbh my car just undsteers rather than over steers so it can't really do much against that xD

[@wongtszshing3795]

Next section: "ESC just wouldn't turn off completely so I just can't drift this thing..."

[@233kosta]

Where there's a will - there's a way 😉

[@warrenchu4612]

bring back the hand brake!

[@RejectedBeats]

@1:39.... The first car with Electronic controlled Anti Lock Brakes was Chrysler Imperial from 1971. It's name was “Sure Brake“. Originally, this system was invented by engineer named Gabriel Voisin, back in 1929. to be used on commercial aircraft. The system was mechanical and it prevented burning and destroying tires on the aircraft. The first passenger car with mechanical Anti lock brakes was Jensen FF in 1966. The first car made in Europe with Electronic controlled Anti Lock Brakes was Triumph 2500 Estates from 1972. The BOSCH Company trademarked acronym ABS for the system in 1978. and system was introduced on the Mercedes Benz S Class W116 but only as an payed additional equipment, not as an standard and serial equipment in the car.

[@diegoalejandro8981]

I think they meant the first car to come with ABS as standard. The imperial had it as a option

[@RejectedBeats]

@@diegoalejandro8981 As an car journalist I already wrote an article on this subject long time ago. There is this part of my comment based on a knowledge from research for my article: The BOSCH Company trademarked acronym ABS for the system in 1978. and system was introduced on the >>Mercedes Benz S Class W116 but only as an payed additional equipment, not as an standard and serial equipment in the car.

[@Claroboy911]

My system failed right before centering back after getting cut off on the highway causing both my front wheels to lock up for a couple of seconds. Saved me half way then almost made me loose control lol

[@chrisogrady28]

This is what happens when you design inherently unstable cars, if you have good tyres and 50:50 weight distribution it’s easy to make emergency manoeuvres without electronic systems and without crashing. Seeing that qashqai lollop around like a drunk elephant is just pathetic. As has been expressed in other comments, everyone should have to drive their car on a track/airfield to see how it actually handles on the limit, and hopefully it would change their car buying decisions away from stupid crossovers and SUVs.

[@hilledegroot]

Exacly this! Unstable car and a computer there to solve it. Makes no sense. Start off with a stable car.

[@Turbotoaster1]

Interesting however that the best car ever to do the Scandinavian moose test is an old front wheel drive probably poorly weight distributed Citroen xantia thanks mainly to clever suspension design

[@FSXgta]

Try the van with ESC disabled

[@theofficialstig]

I once had a hot hatch with no esp and mismatched tyres in the wet I wrote it off I've never regained confidence since You really don't know the value of esp until its needed

[@ericrolv]

Actually the first car to come with ABS (as an option) was the 1971 Imperial LeBaron, by Chrysler. It was called the "Sure-Brake System"

[@davidkennedy1077]

US cars of the time often only had crappy drum brakes all round!!! Drum brakes, very heavy weight and terrible suspension, brakes that didnt lock was the least of your problem on those old boats!!! Especially if it was a muscle car, because then you also had to factor in way too much power!!!

[@DMC_Motorsports]

@@davidkennedy1077 not the point he was making smartass

[@alfisti93]

ACTUALLY i think it was Jensen. With their Interceptor in the mid-60ies. It used an ABS-system sourced from aviation.

[@diegoalejandro8981]

I think the Mercedes was the first to have ABS as standard

[@russcattell955i]

@@diegoalejandro8981 1967 Jensen FF.

[@carlo9524]

It means you think you have Reinmeister Micheal Schumacher skills, but in reality it's mr. ESC with the talent. 🤣😅

[@fdante87]

Scandinavian flick done nicely with esp off 😁

[@alfisti93]

1:39 Nah, I'm pretty sure Jensen was the first company to fit roadcars with ABS. Which was in the 1960ies already!

[@iainmacrae6982]

Nope

[@alfisti93]

@@iainmacrae6982 sure

[@C.I...]

Yeah it was the 1966 Jensen FF.

[@brycmtthw]

Chrysler also fitted ABS to the Imperial in 1971... Mercedes absolutely was NOT the first. Jensen was rudimentary and mechanical. Also it was an extremely low volume production. Ford implemented an electronically controlled version, but only on the rear wheels. Chrysler’s (Bendix) Sure-Brake was electronically controlled 4 wheel anti-lock brakes, in 1971. A full 7 years before Bosch/Mercedes claims the “first”. www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/articles/2013/04/09/antilock-brakes

[@diegoalejandro8981]

brycmtthw I think they meant the first car to come with abs as standard. I think some cars had ABS as a option before the S Class but they didn’t come with ABS as standard

[@joshbacon8241]

5:00 - Imagine having that happen to you during an emergency avoidance manoeuvre in an older car that doesn’t have ESC... 😱

[@lukalukic1]

That was on dry road, imagine on wet road or even on ice/snow

[@chrisogrady28]

It wouldn’t happen if you know how to drive a car, only if you blindly turn the wheel on full throttle.

[@janrdoh]

@@chrisogrady28 You forget how many female drivers are out there.

[@Termiic]

What would happen driving an old and probably underpowered car: 1) nothing, cause it wouldn't have enough power to provoke the driving style necessarry for this 2) the person driving it is very familiar with how the car drives and handles, knows and feels it's limits.

[@saikat0511]

@@lukalukic1 even ESC can't do shit on icy roads. Once you go sideways on ice there is no saving. Drive slow on ice

[@derbigpr500]

He doesn't counter-steer with ESC off, overly dramatic and exaggerated demonstration. Every modern car is very easy to control over the limit with ESC off and it's very hard to make modern cars lose grip to begin with, you really have to try hard and intentionally want to spin.

[@caelebyoung2658]

Also can hear the "handbrake applied" bing from the dashboard in that insignia... Effectively pulled the handbrake up mid manoeuvre to enhance its effects.

[@soundseeker63]

I think its fair to say most drivers don't know how to counter steer effectively in such a situation because A- It isn't taught as part of driving lessons and B- Never occurs in normal situations. So no, its not entirely unrealistic of an average driver in a real panic avoidance situation.

[@gtlegacy8]

ESC just makes every car under steer around a corner great for family cars bad for sports cars.

[@soundseeker63]

Why is it "bad" for sports car except on a track environment (where you can normally switch it off)? On the road you always want to keep the car on the road, upright, and facing the right way, in any type of vehicle, which is exactly what the system aims to do.

[@Nathan-gh3jx]

soundseeker63 I wouldn’t listen to ‘cloud ix’ clearly never driven a car in real life.

[@mohabeats4674]

It really doesn't 😂 maybe if you're trying to drift yes but otherwise no

[@Nathan-gh3jx]

Cloud ix why delete the comment? Did you realise how ridiculous you sound? Btw casually sitting here next to my 4 base spec Bugatti Chiron’s.

[@gtlegacy8]

Nathan nah I just block trolls like you.

[@aviatorzthebest2452]

@3:36 he was almost out of control .. it is very nice to demonstrate these features but make sure u choose the right car and brand for your safety...!!!

[@no-damn-alias]

4:55 doesn't counter and wonders that the spins out.

[@no-damn-alias]

@King Brilliant even if he won't call because there's no reasonable answer to this for a top notch motoring journalist other than this was staged but then they should rather take an average driver instead of trying to foul us.

[@saikat0511]

i don't think a person will remember counter steering and throttle management amidst the panic in case of a road incident

[@no-damn-alias]

@@saikat0511 an average person not but Tiff in a closed situation like this definetly. Moreover it's a question of driver's training. There's a reason why safety trainings exist.

[@ferrumignis]

Thank god for armchair experts like yourself to explain where an experienced race driver and journalist went wrong. Whatever would we do without you?

[@no-damn-alias]

@@ferrumignis trolls like you had nothing to comment on then

[@mechanicadam2011]

best man for the test! 2:00

[@pazuzutru-truluv7094]

Problem is the more you make the car safe the stupider the driver becomes. The best safety device would be a sharp spike in the middle of the steering wheel. That would make all drivers super careful.

[@Ade067]

Exactly, while cars have got safer with all the electronic gizmos the standard of driving hasn't improved!

[@derbigpr500]

@@Ade067 Of course it has. If an average driver from the 1950's came to the future and you put him into modern traffic, they'd be shocked by how fast everyone is driving.

[@badman1220]

That statement is partially true, for instance motorbikes are still very dangerous and vulnerable in an accident, and yet most of them drive like maniacs

[@pazuzutru-truluv7094]

badman1220 I agree, but again there is an argument that states the same for bikers in that crash helmets, leathers, body armour etc gives one an illusion of immortality. I, as a biker, must confess to this and my father has often wondered why I or anyone would wish to go so fast as when he ‘were a lad’ and they didn’t even have helmets, suspension or decent brakes drove a lot more carefully. I have to agree as when I ride his 1948 Triumph 5T it scares the life out of me.

[@soundseeker63]

@@derbigpr500 Faster yes, but no better in terms of car control, and most likely a hell of a lot more careless and distracted too! Most of the young lads and lasses who think they are the shit in their little hatchbacks on finance couldn't even cope with a non PAS car from 30 years ago lol

[@porpentosa]

I see that Tiff tried to switch off the ESC with the Insignia only, not with the Nissan or the van. Because the risk of rolling over was too high?

[@talhasiddiqui2523]

I wish my micra had an esc when I slid out and totalled it

[@almins12]

Can ESP/ESC be dangerous when you are driving hard through corners?... What if the ESC kicks in and let off the throttle so the back end gets 'light' and the car starts to oversteer (especially with RWD-cars)??

[@EricAtMazda]

Almin .S The system’s G-force sensors will detect that rotational force and brake the inside front wheel which counteracts the oversteering rotational force.

[@derbigpr500]

It won't do that.

[@soundseeker63]

These systems have 30+ years of development in them, I think they would have been able to account for situations like that for quite some time now.

[@rickoshay545]

What about the ol' "Don't like what you are seeing unfolding in front of you so you remove your hands from the steering wheel and cover your eyes" scenario.

[@boringstuff3463]

My 07 focus doesnt have esp/esc, anyway, ill buy another car in a year or so

[@losmeets98]

So what did you get? Don't leave us in suspence :)

[@boringstuff3463]

@@losmeets98 Still own the car to this point, but i bought a BMW e34 525i as project car. Maybe not so safe, but fun as hell

[@CarsaremytingTV]

Tiffs having a seizure

[@applebitefool]

What if I’m trying to get into trouble? I miss my E36M3

[@bigal9658]

my son owns the insignia !

[@brycelowry1826]

All I could hear through out the tests were elephants

[@Chpspsa]

If you see tiff at the esc off try he not try to control the car he just turn the wheel and he do nothing after this to make it more dramatic

[@Philmoscowitz]

Tiff Needell is a British national treasure.

[@Elaba_]

The funny thing is the Renault Clio, Vauxhall Insignia, Volkswagen Passat and Nissan Cashcow are all cars that breakdown alot so if you're driving behind those cars ESC is more than welcome.

[@mantaspin]

the Nissan doesn't break down a lot. the rest I'm not so sure

[@Elaba_]

@@mantaspin inews.co.uk/essentials/lifestyle/cars/car-news/the-most-and-least-reliable-used-cars-named/

[@soundseeker63]

Don't think the Passat is too bad, I see quite a few of them as minicabs etc. They seem to take high milages ok.

[@nuss529]

@Gibbon How does that make sense

[@johnny6476]

Carpe diem Vauxhall insignias don’t break down much either.

[@maxmcwilliams1997]

But lotuses don't have it

[@kp4643]

My car didn't even have traction control and as a result oversteer resulted in a crash into a lamp post :(

[@chrisogrady28]

That's the result of poor driving

[@diegoalejandro8981]

Christopher O'Grady oor a accident. I’ve seen you all over the comments saying “it’s A GooD DrIveR” well yea but in a situation that you can’t control like slipping on a wet road or someone hitting you from behind or a animal crossing the street or a crash right in front of you, a good car and safety systems can make a difference

[@AnthroGearhead]

I love how they used real ppl for crash test and they all seem to walk away with no injuries XD

[@no1DdC]

The idea was that they would get x-rayed and examined by doctors to check for internal injuries after each crash test. I'm not kidding.

[@spaghetti9067]

princess Diana's car accident left her with minimal external injuries but her heart was moved to the opposite side of her body ripping major arteries and veins crashes are sometimes misleading

[@confusedredditor1660]

@@spaghetti9067 yikes

[@ziad123bakkich2]

Thats my insignia!!+

[@danr1920]

Let do this in snow, about one inch in the driving lanes, about four inches else where, change lanes at 50 - 70 mph and see what happens.

[@stiggyness1976]

Yeah? do it in a smooth and controlled way and no problems, unless you have crap tires of course.

[@Andy-Robus]

I have got a Renault Clio IV and the numbskulls havent included a 'Traction Control off' switch on the dash so if i get stuck in snow or mud this winter how am I suppose to get out of it if it stops the wheels from slipping? - I'm pretty sure the manual said 'turn traction control off ' in situation of getting stuck in snow .. but as i say they haven't added a switch!

[@audionut9974]

stability control just means you understeer into a tree don't ask how i know

[@stiggyness1976]

Either your brakes are crap or you have crap tires, all of my vehicles (Vauxhall) have ESP and I have tried my hardest to try and get any of my vehicles to loose control, just incase I need it one day, just to see how the systems respond and I can report they are fantastic. In fact I would go as far to say it's like the hand of god guiding the cars, all you get is tire sequel and constant control. No understeer and No oversteer. But I'm the sort of guy who keeps on top of the maintenance of my vehicles.

[@misi2752]

With every new safety feature in a car, the driver tends to drive more recklessly, saying " the car will sort it out" or "I will survive anyway". These things are good but they can give you a false impression of total safety.

[@LawrenceAbramoff]

I find it hard to believe that Tiff can't control the car

[@derbigpr500]

He can, he didn't countersteer at all, and even turned in harder once the rear end started sliding.

[@LawrenceAbramoff]

@@derbigpr500 well yeah. In a real test I'd pick Tiff over ESC in a heart beat. Poor guy was made to film this rubbish

[@SpeedDaemon3]

I guess he simulates the average idiot behind the wheel. We're not all ex-F1 pilots from the 80s with a lifetime experience in drifting like Tiff to deal with such situations. Honestly I'm scared of the race mode with no assists on my car. I use the sport mode and remember I'm just a normal human, maybe with a lot more experience than most as my job means driving a lot but still no super trained pilot. Just because ABS is there and saves people doesn't mean a trained pilot can't break better without ABS. It's just tha tthe average human can't especially in a life and death panic situation.

[@soundseeker63]

That was kinda the point, he was DELIBERATELY trying to loose control so as to simulate Joe Avarage's panic response to an emergency. Even moderately skilled drivers know aggressive steering inputs on a trailing throttle will cause the back to slide and are not a good idea on the road! Of course Tiff could have steered out of it if he wanted to.

[@collinslfc]

Tiff isn't the average standard driver though is he? That's the whole point...

[@losmeets98]

My 2011 Fiat Panda doesn't have ESC or even Traction Control Guess I'll die :/

[@TROLLINGTROLLY-sc7cv]

Me: mom can we watch top gear? Mom: we have top gear at home Top gear at home

[@finleypdoherty]

Should’ve tried a rwd car

[@BLacknesmonstaz]

Did someone use a yellow highlighter over his teeth for the thumbnail?

[@vaishak007acharya]

I would love be a passenger while Tiff is carrying out this form scientific experiments. No pay me anything I will work for free. If there's a way I will pay be his passenger.

[@nzwotb2525]

Complicated electronics

[@233kosta]

ESC 1 - Tiff 0 🤣

[@davidg4026]

Maybe it should be Tiff vs Dentist.

[@danibiker8379]

Wide choice of cars... all fwd ;-/

[@danibiker8379]

@ yes but FWD cars are less like to slide or spin ...so to present real impact of electronic aids it's better to use at least 1 powerful RWD car. Actually 1RWD would be enough

[@slickidrich490]

As long as you have ESC you are invisible

[@aminnezerov6617]

First

[@davidg4026]

Hero.

[@aminnezerov6617]

Thank

[@davemike1010]

Pin pls