Is The Aircraft Cannon Obsolete?

[@casbot71]

*The year 2080:* Designing the latest gen AI piloted hypersonic stealth drone… _"Hang on, we have lasers, rotary missile launchers and a metal storm pod, why do we need to include a cannon?"_ "It's tradition… I don't know why. We just need to have one variant with a Gatling gun to prevent the weebs from hassling the Defence Secretary".

[@ArcturusOTE]

What's a metal storm pod?

[@casbot71]

@@ArcturusOTE Prototype weapon (been in prototype for several decades now and still…?!) that's a electric triggered gun barrel with the rounds stacked inside the barrel that are sequentially fired one after another by electric signal running down the barrel. It can theoretically fire at up to a million rounds a minute or similar! But there's no reload mechanism. It's set up with a series of barrels mounted together inside a pod, with each barrel being capable of having different ammo ect. When fired it puts out a wall of lead or explosive projectiles (for the larger calibre versions) that just shred the target. Concepts included a terminal defence AA where it put up a wall of bullets against a missile that got through other defences, another was a pod of shape charged grenades that wipe out a Tank column or grid reference - and can be fitted into _a downward facing pods that can fire from a aircraft flying overhead!!_ It was invented by a Australian tinkerer (and now researched by the American MIC) and was big news in Australia when the US first showed interest due to the local angle [I'm 🇦🇺 of course]. Google it, have *-game* so that eliminates other results from the video game of the same name. There's a basic article by *business insider* that gives the skinny on it, if you want to add that search term to *metal storm* for a quick read. Basically it's a sci-fi gun that's not really going to happen, but had a lot of cool futuristic mock ups done that actually fired and had some videos of it working.

[@argokarrus2731]

Tbf, I still find that guns will be useful mainly to swat rotary-wing aviators

[@556deltawolf]

But wouldn't lasers technically count as cannons? I mean in star wars they are called "cannons"

[@KoishiVibin]

@@casbot71 Bleh. Weapon looking for an application. Terminal air defense is done better by missiles or maybe lasers, air to ground has fewer issues if you just throw bomblets, etc.

[@RJKilroy]

Aircraft cannons, to me, after learning about how modern air combat actually works, have followed much the same historical path as bladed weapons. For a long time in the relatively short history of air warfare, guns were the meta of air-to-air combat-just like spears and swords were the long-time meta of ancient and medieval warfare. But now that war has changed with new advances in technology, aircraft cannons have been relegated to a more secondary role-just like soldiers still often carry combat knives into battle. So while I don’t think aircraft cannons are necessarily obsolete, they are on track to go the way of the combat knife: Handy in emergencies and specific scenarios, but only seldom used in combat.

[@fightertales]

That's a good way to look at it

[@TenShine1productions]

There is recorded bayonet kills in Afghanistan One British Lance Corporal fixed bayonet and charged across an open field while under fire to attack a Taliban position. I think he got the Victoria cross for it as well.

[@n.a.4292]

I'd like to point out soldiers still get issued combat/survival knives because "you never know". I think aircraft guns/cannons follow the same philosophy

[@candiman4243]

A good knife will also have utility in non-combat scenarios, like for cutting things, or other survival related tasks

[@KoishiVibin]

@@n.a.4292 The problem is that on a plane, pounds matter. On an infantrykit it's a pound holster support and knife. On a plane that's an internal bay and then ammo space. You could fit one or two missiles, probably.

[@CHKNFRGZ]

Removing the cannons from aircraft would upset the machine spirits, though... Also here from LP, good stuff thusfar.

[@rettichdergeile9361]

Removing the Cannons sounds like Heresy to me

[@terrynewsome6698]

Even in death we serve

[@teknofreak2387]

Aircraft should be equipped with the holy trinity of gun, flamer and melta

[@impcec6734]

Cannons on aircraft is slowly starting to give, “get in close, I want to hit them with my sword” vibes.

[@AnimarchyHistory]

There are two things that make me hesitant to abandon the gun (Besides my virtual fighter pilot BFM pride - Former DCS Folds of Honour Finalist) In terms of actual combat utility in peer to peer air engagements you are absolutely correct. I can blast anyone away with an AMRAAM or AIM-9 before they get even remotely close. But there are a number of situations where the gun is a superior option. The primary ones are helicopters and drones. Now I know we can assign a missile. But even with modern radars and infrared, firing at a helicopter is rather fraught given altitude, speed and how those variables effect weapon employment. There is a much higher probability of kill if you are engaging say an MI-8 or MI-26 with a gun. And if a fighter is engaging those targets anyway it’s safe to assume you have air superiority in the area. As for the drone. Why would I spend a million dollar missile against a UAV that costs half as much. Better to spend a thousand bucks of 20mm. In fact the latest air to air kills with guns have been against drones, namely by MiG-29s on both sides of the Ukraine war (The Russian UAV kill was caught on tape during the Donbas crisis in the late 2010s). In terms of ground attack the utility of the gun is simple. Especially 20mm. During COIN operations my friends in the Infantry have said more than once that having the gun is nice because if things go as you said catastrophically wrong, they can bring them in far closer than a 500IB JDAM and their FAC can walk them on. Ideally they’d have an Apache. But if a Viper is on station you don’t say no. The other big argument for keeping the gun in my view is the fact that peer to peer conflicts. As in real ones. Are gone the way of the dodo themselves. The only reason we haven’t given the Ukrainians enough munitions to march on Moscow is because we fear escalation with a nuclear power. Ergo we do not want to start a war with a nuclear/“advanced” power. Which means consequentially almost all of our conflicts are going to be COIN. Air Policing. Strikes on rouge powers etc. And as a result there is going to be civilian traffic. Neutral nations air forces on training flights. All sorts of stuff going on. So we will have to fly intercept protocol which means getting into gun range to positively ID the target as in Vietnam. Otherwise we might blast an airliner or a friendly/neutral target. Causing a major international incident. Honestly. From a budgetary perspective along with a contingency planning perspective. It makes sense to keep it. “In case of emergency break glass”. As weird as it sounds though. I think the drone swarm is what will kill the gun in the end. High speed micro munitions, gps/laser guided bullets for lack of a better term. But I am an old romantic at heart. Knights of the air books fill my book case. So all I say can be taken with a huge pinch of “this guy likes guns”

[@KoishiVibin]

I'd argue that helicopter/drone baits/protected by air defense would require missiles anyways. Competent militaries might place air defence artillery nearby just waiting for someone to go "oh it's just a rotary/slow-wing" to ruin your day with a telephone pole. At the point of closing into WVR a sidewinder still has the upper hand. A gun needs an accurate track with no significant target displacement. A missile you get a lock and go bang

[@AnimarchyHistory]

@@KoishiVibin Realistically speaking helicopters shouldn't be engaged by fixed wing assets anyway unless you are doing deep interdiction behind the lines. And if you are able to do that you obviously have air superiority anyway. The only consideration I would say is the MANPAD's threat. Which locks fixed assets to fly above 10K. So engaging with the gun at the FEBA/Frontal Areas would be inadvisable. At which point you'd use an AMRAAM. So... we're both right? I guess?

[@lolwtfover9k]

Is the CEP for the vulcan actually any less than, say, an SDB? Because my understanding is that it's not, and you can actually get better, safer close air support from guided munitions than a gun run.

[@KoishiVibin]

@@lolwtfover9k Oh yeah Laser guided hydras with APKWS were found to be an order of magnitude better than their conventional version Cheaper too.

[@KoishiVibin]

@@AnimarchyHistory gentle confusion.

[@MrTheWaterbear]

Skipping Pierre Spray like a boss. A LazerPig approved maneuver 👍🔥

[@fightertales]

I'm sure he knew his jazz

[@petterteignesse5486]

The “aircraft’s cannon ≈ an infantryman’s pistol” was a great analogy. Although I already agreed with the premise, it was a very nice way to put it

[@fuckoff4705]

but infantrymen dont all get pistols, usually only the machine gunner/ sniper

[@mbattalionenjoyer5162]

Imo, the cannon is more like an infantryman’s combat knife. Short range missiles (e.g., sidewinders) are like an infantryman’s sidearm/pistol.

[@米空軍パイロット]

It's also the samurai's sword. Everyone thinks it's the primary weapon, but it's the secondary to the long range bow.

[@sinisterisrandom8537]

​@@fuckoff4705that's still considered infantry. Machine gunner, marksman, squad leaders, grenadiers list goes on. Get side arms. But at the end are all infantry if needs be.

[@Maussiegamer]

here from lazerpig

[@fightertales]

Bless

[@daspas2111]

same here

[@ramonbasques3753]

Same

[@ThePirateParrot]

Where's the wine??

[@fightertales]

@@ThePirateParrot I'm a liquor man, myself

[@MyBlindThirdEye]

I will admit, I was sent by a certain swine. But I stayed for the good content. Thank you for the well-formatted and succinctly delivered information, and I look forward to what seems like a very promising new channel.

[@fightertales]

I'm glad you stayed, and thanks for the kind words! There's more to come out of this blonde head of mine.

[@MortRotu]

I second all the above, sent by LP, Staying for great content.

[@mixtape9123]

@@MortRotu what video sent you here I lost it

[@kaih7647]

Never really thought much about it, but yeah, ditching the cannons absolutely makes sense. I think an even more fitting equivalent may be a bayonet, which you'd only really use as a last resort, if you can even get close enough to actually use it. On the other hand, brrrrrrrrrrt? Also, thanks for just skipping Pierre Sprey, the less people talk about him the better

[@fightertales]

The bayonet is definitely a good comparison!

[@sealioso]

Best argument gun supporters can give "brrrrrrrrrrt" (they do have a point)

[@nocturnal0072]

@@fightertales imagine stealth getting so good, merging becomes common enough and missiles fail to reliability track unless it's a fox 2 from the rear. 🤔

[@TheGallantDrake]

Sprey is only worth mentioning as a case study in woozle-ing

[@lethalslaughterband5498]

@@nocturnal0072it could happen but I'd doubt that heavily.

[@jakubpawelczyk2688]

Funny thing you mention the F-8, because despite being called "the last gunfighter", out of all of it's kills I believe only 2 were made with guns

[@TLTeo]

Yeah this needs to be repeated at nauseam. The only two Western- made aircraft from that era that got a significant number of gun kills were the F-105 (which almost never carried missiles in Vietnam) and the Mirage 3 (which in the 1967 Israeli air force carried even worse missiles than the AIM-9B).

[@jeremynikijuluwstanevil7551]

What missile that is worst than the AIM-9B that the Israelis are using?

[@alanwestmoreland6152]

​@@jeremynikijuluwstanevil7551 matra R.550, a close relative

[@kylebrady969]

The Crusader's Colt Mk.12 Cannon were notoriously unreliable in maneuvering fights, so that's partially why.

[@nixet]

The gun pod is the answer in my opinion. Just like you have various missile, bombs, sensor packs etc., you could have a gun pod for when you need it, without having to always carry it when you don’t.

[@nocturnal0072]

*conformal gun pod

[@exo068]

The main problem with gun pods is that they take up space for other weapons, a internal gun doesn’t. For any CAS operation against soft or semi soft targets a gun is the best way to go unless you have cluster munitions.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

You may only know you're going to need a gun after you see a situation where you'll need a gun. You don't get the benefit of hindsight before takeoff.

[@outis7080]

@@exo068 A gun system takes up space that can be used for extra fuel or equipment. Since the gun is rarely used, it is usually deadweight, unideal for aircraft. This issue is compounded in 5th gen aircraft where internal space is even more important due to RCS constraints.

[@exo068]

@@outis7080 you don’t really gain any significant space from removing the gun. 5 gen aircraft also have basically no other option then to mount a internal gun because even the stealth gun pods reduces the stealth characteristics.

[@kylewhite5695]

Glad lazerpig recommended you, and good luck on your KZbin career. Subscribed ofc.

[@fightertales]

Thanks man, I really appreciate it!

[@ThePoeticPariah]

So, it should be noted that equipping infantry with a sidearm is a relatively recent idea and some modern day soldiers take the pistol off their webbing to make space for other stuff, namely more ammo for big gun.

[@HardThrasher]

I will admit to having been immediately like "but big gun goes burrrr" - so thought I'd look up Sea Harrier kills in the Falklands as proof that guns have been used to make kills recently* Turns out nope, never happened, just lots of Sidewinders and some fancy jamming stuff to stop getting shot down by Argentine missiles. They did get close enough for guns sometimes, and they did fire a few times, but no kills made - mostly because the Daggers and Mirages were trying to zoom and boom the ships so closing speeds were insane. All of which is to say now I want to do a video on the Falklands naval campaign and you may have a point re guns on jets *I mean 40 years ago, but I remember it pretty well, so like it must have been recent right?

[@AspiringDevil]

Here from LazerPig & this a very good video. Keep it up & keep improving. Very good subject & I like thr format your using. We all love guns but you need the right tool for the job. Cannons are probably the side arms & combat knives of the sky in the modern era. It's something that you need to have but it's only going to be used in specific situations.

[@whybndsu]

The thing is, I don't think the aircraft cannon will be fully omitted. 6th gen fighters are predicted to become bigger and there isn't much sense to delete a relatively simple backup weapon which can be used on both air and surface targets. It's useful for interdiction roles by firing cannon rounds with tracers as warning shots to intruding aircraft. It also makes economical sense to have it for use against drones l. There are numerous smaller aircraft cannons such as single barrel 30mm cannons on european and russian aircraft or three barreled rotary cannons mounted on the korean FA-50

[@KoishiVibin]

Alternatively hand the other guy nails and see who blinks No money but the flight hour fees.

[@mey.tomhero4876]

Am here from Lazerpig, but I’m impressed with the production value. Earned a sub from me, looking forward to equally well done videos.

[@bobfrancis123]

Followed Lazerpig’s link and was impressed, Falcon! Yes, with the vast improvement of BVR and IFF tech, linking to forward tracking radar or AWACs, your side arm analogy for the canon is spot on. It’s a comfort blankie more than an actual piece of truly useful kit.

[@thirstysailor579]

I see them as a last ditch back up weapon for the moment. However, if the laser ever matures, that’ll be the next “gun”.

[@devildolphin2102]

Came here from Lazerpig. And my god. You have such great audio and editing quality. Look forward to looking at more from you man. Glad I found you early.

[@fightertales]

Thanks dude. Glad to have you aboard

[@sebastianquintero1725]

Falcon, fantastic channel instant subscriber! Also great video btw. To delve deeper into the topic of aircraft utilizing cannons, during the Falklands conflicts, pilots from the Argentine Air Force and Naval Aviation extensively employed their cannons against British helicopters and ships. One notable incident involved Argentine Navy Aermacchi MB339 pilot, Owen Crippa, who single-handedly attacked HMS Argonaut. Additionally, multiple Skyhawks utilized their cannons to inflict significant damage on British ships. This was a really interesting conflict with many variables of both sides that can be a great source for future videos or references! Looking forward for more great content !

[@690_5]

One thing that I've always liked about aircraft having a cannon (in videogames) is even if your jet is entirely dedicated to A2A combat, you can still plink off a few ground targets if it's desperate. (Wargame, War Thunder, the like.) Same being said for aircraft dedicated exclusively to ground attack. You've still got a gun if everything else goes wrong. It's a utility more than a necessity. That's probably the reason modern aircraft are still being built with them. Hell, I remember that being mentioned by a Colonel in an F35 documentary I watched a long time ago (and forgot the name of)

[@Shaun_Jones]

That is probably the best use for guns in the modern day, but I am of the opinion that laser-guided rockets are well on their way to filling that niche. Think of how many Hydra 70s you could carry instead of an ammo drum, remember that any target that is vulnerable to a burst of 20mm is likely to be destroyed in one hit by a rocket, then keep in mind that the rockets can hit a target the size of a manhole cover from three miles away. If internal weapons are a concern, there is actually a solution: the F102 Delta Dart had two dozen 70mm rocket tubes mounted in its weapon bay doors.

[@sgt_s4und3r54]

We always say "stats say we don't need it" but in the end its better to have it and not need it because you never know when you will need it.

[@generalspitfire01]

This guy summed up what I was bout to say. The guns on modern fighters should be used as a "OH SNAP" moment. Now Top Gun is still around to teach new pilots can be prepared if they get into once of these "OH SNAP" moments.

[@Fandom_Junkie]

Here from a friend who probably saw you recommended by LazerPig. Hello there and good video

[@diestormlie]

I believe that Fighters should have two cannons. Not actually for any good reason, but because then it'd be symmetrical, and that pleases my brain.

[@Destroyer_V0]

So you would prefer 2 single barrel guns over 1, 6 barrel gun?

[@diestormlie]

@@Destroyer_V0 I don't see any reason (that I view as legitimate) why we couldn't have -two- Rotary Cannons.

[@fightertales]

Why stop there?

[@diestormlie]

@@fightertales You're right. THREE Cannons. Centerline, one on each wing.

[@Nr15121]

Super bugs gun is centerline how do you feel about those

[@mikedrop4421]

Thanks KZbin, recommending videos like this is how you prove that you know me better than anyone else.

[@mikeymikey4186]

Love the editing and the character! Brand new sub!

[@fightertales]

The camera caught my good side. Welcome!

[@commandopengi]

In BFM or DACT, I've heard the gun being used like on the possibly infamous USAF colonel's account on the Indian Su30 where the F15/F16 used the gun to kill the Su30 when it attempted to use TVC when the merge was reached or Dutch F35A pilots specifically mentioning the gun when beating their F16 aggressors in BFM. The only realistic use of the gun is to strafe ground targets. There were articles written advertising specialized ammunition for all variants for the F35 for attacking ground targets.

[@Foremarkex]

I'd kind of be interested in aircraft design philosophy. After WW2 and in to the 1960's and 1970's, aircraft design diversifies in to quite a lot of groupings, but over time it's fallen in to fairly homogenous design decisions, that would seem at odds with previously successful concepts and ideas. The one I've always been curious about was the Folland Gnat, being sort of overlooked, it's philosophy was to build a cheap-but-reliable-enough aeroplane that could take a serviceable-enough payload but without a lot of the costs, work well-enough but turns an air-war in to a game of numbers.

[@Ninjapancake36]

Just found your channel and I must say excellent video. When it comes to aircraft cannons and their use, I have not much more to add beyond other instances of “It’s the last resort” aircraft may not always be available for a specific mission. And in a scenario we’re an emergency is needed to defend or support ground units and the only thing nearby that has secured airspace is a F-22 apart from some Global Hawks. You can’t always tell those guys to sit tight backup will arrive once we scramble a AH-64 from the nearest FOB or F/A-18 from a nearby Carrier, that F-22 and it’s gun will have to make due and of course it’s not a JAGM or Hellfire, or even a MK82. But for the guys on the ground it may be just enough to keep them alive and keep the enemies in cover until med-evac or proper support arrives. Many militaries function with an overlapping code of arms which the same reason we still train ground units on stingers when patriots and other air defense systems are much better. It’s to cover eachother in cases so nothing is not accounted for

[@williammagoffin9324]

The whole cannon situation from Vietnam it some ways came down to using the wrong plane for the mission. The Navy stuck to a two fighter inventory because they needed an interceptor/fleet defense fighter (Skyray, Phantom, Tomcat) and a general purpose fighter (Fury, Crusader, Hornet). The Crusader, while famous for its guns had older guns because it was an older aircraft dating to a 1953 requirement. As a result the Crusader shot down very few planes with its cannon even though it had the benefits of radar (except for the original F8U-1s) and IRST. Now the USAF did have the idea of two different styles of fighters but their general purpose fighters were more tactical strike aircraft for nuclear strikes in Europe. Their strike aircraft (F-84F, F-105) being ill suited to air combat, and their light weight fighters (F-104, F-5) just not being liked. Although the fighter with the most gun kills in Vietnam was the F-105. Maybe this has something to do with the perception, the USAF had some success with the F-105 and cannons so the F-4 struggling without a cannon MUST be the lack of a cannon. While the Navy had a "gunfighter" that wasn't having as much success with cannons so it must be something other than the cannon that was wrong. I think the Navy was right, it was pilot and ground crew training that was the problem.

[@kylebrady969]

That Ault Report was rather eye-opening at the time. I'm in agreeance that the Navy had the right idea in teaching guys how to properly use and maintain the tools they had. You are right about the gun situation on the Crusader; I responded to someone else about this, but the Mk.12 20mm cannon on the F-8 had a pretty poor reputation for jamming under G-load (I think it was 2-3 G's, maybe 4-5). Even if you got into a position to use the cannon they might not stay working very long, so that certainly doesn't help.

[@jeffreyblaisdell1988]

Some Love from lazerpig! The Hogs of History salute you!

[@lethrington]

You are a very cute anime plane boi. Also to be serious, yeah, growing up in the late 90s and early 2000s I remember looking at books about planes and wondering what the point of the guns were. Especially the F-22, which I was obsessed with as a kid. I mean if that thing has gotten to within gun firing range either someone has royally messed up or your doctrine is horrifically broken.

[@fightertales]

You flatter me. I'm still waiting for lasers, not gonna lie.

[@timber_wulf5775]

@@fightertales I want this twink obliterated (jk)

[@imperialistbrit128]

I’ve always seen it like a bayonet for a rifle, it is obsolete, until it isn’t

[@skinny878]

one does not disobey The Pig

[@B_Man99]

Nice video! First time watching you and I must say well done! Videos well structured with plenty of facts backing you up, and the editing is superb, im now subscribing to your content. Thank you LazerPig for the recommendation

[@Ten_NE_Ten]

Your music choise is so good! Earned yourself a fan for fantastic content, and made a Karl Casey fan in the process.

[@fightertales]

Karl knows his shit

[@vortecmacs]

I also would posit that in the 30 years while we’ve been engaged in wars we haven’t done a lot of air to air work with guns OR missiles because we’re fighting people, usually, without a standing Air Force.

[@neilmouneimne5451]

One factor that shouldn’t be overlooked is the price of ammo. Gun ammo is cheap and easily replenished. I remember footage during the first Gulf War where CAP aircraft on the news frequently launched with only two missiles on the wings. Likewise, one of the lessons from Ukraine seems to be that nations tend to underestimate their wartime ammunition needs when the lead time requires acquisition during periods of peace. All the missile refinement and technology in the world won’t count for much if it’s not hanging off your hardpoints.

[@De_Wit]

'...maybe we can learn something together.' I like you.

[@PhycoKrusk]

The answer to "How important is the cannon, really?" has simply become, "More than you might think, but only a little." The main reason for failures in Vietnam, after all, were the F-4 being pressed into a role it was not designed for, with technology that had not matured yet, and rules of engagement that prevented the optimal use of the technology; it was basically guaranteed to not do well.

[@Albyint]

This channel seems like a good find! Subbed!

[@feekygucker2678]

Sent by the Scottish, ‘bacon-in-waiting’, fact checker. Good stuff my dude… I’m aging myself here, but this is a thought I had in the late nineties, but your research is something I could never do. You got my sub 👍.

[@Genesis0Nieves0]

Holy shit! the quality of the videos just keeps improving! and they're getting longer! Keep up the good work, Loving it!

[@L1GHTYTHING]

The things I'd do for a video on the top gun training programme. Love the video man, keep it up.

[@fightertales]

Oh its coming.

[@FlightSimHistorian]

Lazerpig sent me over. Awesome video!

[@spray916]

I think of it as I'd rather have it and not need it, then need it, and not have it. Most of the F-15s kills during the Gulf War in the 90s were AIM-9Ls in a merge, which surprised me. I would've figured it would've been the later model Sparrows they, the F-15s were carrying at the time. Point being a merge CAN happen. If the missiles miss, id like something to fall back on. That said modern missiles in a pier to pier conflict at a certain range is mutually assured destruction. AIM-9X Block II, R-73M1, MICA, Python V... ext.

[@Averagevenator]

Here from laserpig, I will watch your career with great interest

[@SenorGato237]

I'd say it's more like a knife than a sidearm. That being said, as an infantryman I never left the wire without my knife. EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying "Ohhh you never know then you might need to go in for guns on a Fulcrum!" Because you won't. BUT, when we have TIC on the ground, and they need CAS, ANYTHING with a ground attack capability will be tasked to get them out of that. If we have fighters enforcing a no fly zone, loaded up with AIMs and AAMRAMs, they probably don't have a ground strike package. But they can bring the "BRRRRT".

[@warmachine5835]

I don't like the knife analogy because to a solider, a knife has more uses than just "stab the baddie." An aircraft gun and a side arm all have a variety of uses, but the vast majority of them are specific to shooting at or near the baddie, which doesn't even come into the same league of utility that "flat piece of metal with a cutting edge" has. Essentially, the knife analogy gives the aircraft cannon too much credit. I wonder if anyone has tried to cut paracord with a pistol shot in a pinch?

[@TheSchultinator]

Seems like the gun pod route, with training so pilots still know how to dogfight, would be the best route overall

[@Joveric2]

Lazerpig sent me btw. Nice vid 👌

[@jehoiakimelidoronila5450]

About the keeping the sun behind your back part, I understood that reference

[@excalibrrimcold9354]

Would love to see a video on the replacement to the a-10.

[@fightertales]

I'd love to do a video on the F-35

[@excalibrrimcold9354]

@@fightertales The plane is known as the sky warden. Something that looks like itz from ww2 but has modern equipment on it.

[@fightertales]

@@excalibrrimcold9354 So the sky warden is a Counter Insurgency aircraft more than a dedicated close air support plane. It CAN do CAS, but in such a fluid job, something fast that can avoid being hit by ground fire is probably the way to go. Doesnt matter how well you can protect the boys on the ground if your ass gets shot off

[@bryce4724]

I think you will see the return of COIN or wingman drones with a CAS based package fill this role in the future.

[@mrexists5400]

It's like soldiers carrying a pistol when he has things like rifles, machine guns, grenade launchers etc., of course there are vastly superior weapons to pistols, but having a backup when shit hits the fan hard is rather nice.

[@SonOfAB_tch2ndClass]

The Problem is also that we havent seen a peer on peer conflict where the pilots are of equal training and skill. Highly unlikely to see one seeing as the lackluster training of the Russians and Chinese pilots would be dead even before the WVR became a consideration

[@KoishiVibin]

Skill don't matter. Like, it's a nice thought but US aviators are mostly just better in using doctrine and tactical. In terms of actually direct combat there's not much you can do against modern missiles. Jam them, most have HoJ. Decoy them, most have rejection logic. Evade them, some can pull like 200+Gs in a turn. It's slowly becoming akin to naval warfare.

[@bubblesofthecoast6393]

If there’s a way I’d describe the aircraft cannon, it’s like heated seats on a car. It’s nice if it’s there but isn’t critical for an aircraft to have. With how strong missiles are today, there should be no chance for aircraft to get so close to each other where a gun would be used. There is one situation I could see a gun being useful: if two stealth fighters were to run into each other and miraculously somehow not get picked up by AWACS nor by their on-board radar, we might run into a situation where a gun could be used but even then, close-range IR missiles are absolutely cracked and can be launched from the craziest angles due to HMD’s and highly-maneuverable missiles, but overall, I think I’d rather have a gun than not at all if you can fit it on.

[@FarmerDrew]

My uncle was a USAF flight instructor. I've been studying design my whole life. The F-35B having a 25mm cannon gives me more hope for the future of CAS than any A-10 X.

[@chedchz]

Lightning go Brrrrrrrt

[@get2burning]

Great video! Can't wait for more

[@lewisshaw1242]

I don’t how true this and it s more of a peace time rolebut the EE lightning’s used to have cannons in its initial variants but later on they were removed because of the need for more fuel but final versions had the guns reequiped as it was deemed that a intercepter may need guns to fire ‘warning’ shots at unresponsive aircraft. I could just be chatting doggy doo doo

[@Man_Emperor_of_Mankind]

I was sent by the Photon Hog. Great videos on your channel, I'm looking forward to more and would love some longer (20min+) videos.

[@BlacktailDefense]

That's what the US military thought during the 1950s and 1970s, until the resulting aircraft without guns fought aircraft _with_ guns. We lost a lot of aircraft to aerial gunfire in that war as a result. As Col. Robin Olds famously stated, _"A fighter without a gun is like an airplane without a wing"._

[@fightertales]

The Navy would like to have a word

[@kylebrady969]

Olds was also of the opinion that he would never clear his fighter unit to carry gunpods. He believed (rightly so at the time) that his USAF pilots would get into way more trouble that the pod was worth - plus losing 600US Gal of fuel on the F-4 Phantom was a big deal. He stuck to his guns, pun intended, and firmly taught his guys to fight MiGs his way and no other; take the strengths of your plane and engage in such a way as to emphasize those strengths. When the enemy screws up you pounce - ironically exactly the same thing TOP GUN would teach later.

[@BlacktailDefense]

@@kylebrady969 The experience with gunpods is another reason why fighters from the early 1970s onwards almost unanimously had internal guns; gunpods lost alignment, jammed, and got ripped-off in high-g maneuvers too easily. As one commentator put it in an article I read some years back, _"Bolt-on guns are like bolt-on boobs; they tend to point in the wrong directions"._ Mig-21s had these problems a lot in combat during the 1960s and early 1970s, a lesson that arrived too late for the Mig-23, Mig-27, Su-15, and Su-24, but every Soviet and Russian fighter since then has had an internal gun; so too has every Western European fighter since then, from the Tornado to the Tempest. Experience with the F-100, F-4, and F-8 in Southeast Asia resulted in the F-14, F-15, F-16, F-18, F-22, and F-23 all having internal guns, though the system un-learned that lesson with the F-35 (the F-35A's gun bulges out of it, while the F-35B and F-35C went back to gunpods). The Chinese caught-on late, but from the J-10 onward, every new fighter they've introduced have internal guns. Even attack aircraft designers have thrown their lot in with internal guns, with the A-10, Su-25, AMX, J-22, and JH-7 being prominent examples.

[@ATFprdepartment]

An aircraft nerd? With an anime profile picture? RECOMMENDED BY LAZERPIG?! I’m staying. Forever.

[@terrynewsome6698]

I think it still has a value on the modern battle field. Not for air combat or pier on pier cas missions, but for low cost counter insurgency missions. Let's take something like the South African mwari or Brazilian super a-39, and give it a target like a column of technicals (Toyota hilux 1993) armed with zpu-2 and nvs machine guns. This would be far to much of cost in balance to use 100 thousand dollar hellfire, brimstone, spike, or maverick to hit these trucks that at most may cost 2,000 dollars. Most 3rd world countries can't really afford to waste such money on what is essentially low cost easily replaced enemy assets. But if they used cheaper hydra guided pods rockets to destroy the aa systems and 20mm gun pods to clear up the rest with a few passes. Much like aaa tanks (gepard or tunguska) it still has a place on the modern battle field even after it can no long fulfill its main purpose. AAA can shoot down drones, and plane guns can destroy cheap insurgent vehicles without wasting valuable guided missiles. The ov-10 in the ISIS campaign perfectly represents this idea.

[@SupremeRTS]

I agree, it does still have some viability against a vastly inferior enemy with limited anti air capability and whom aren't worth the cost of a bomb or missile. I believe this is why A-10 is still in service despite the high cost of maintaining these ancient machines. However in terms of air to air effectiveness, the gun should be ommited from future designs. I think having a dedicated close air support plane armed with guns or cannons (and other munitions of course) to fight insurgency forces like you said is good. I actually think it would be worth the air forces time and money to procure a much cheaper replacement for the a-10 specifically designed to fight guerrilla fighters. Of course it should never be used in a true war like in Ukraine.

[@fightertales]

@@SupremeRTS You both have valid points.

[@terrynewsome6698]

@@fightertales if 20 years of Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia, and Nigeria have taught us anything it is that counter insurgency is a long, expensive, and logistics intensive affair. And most airforce need to cut corners were they can.

[@fightertales]

It's important to note that this video focuses mostly on high performance jet fighters vs COIN aircraft where having a gun really is the best option for the type of aircraft being used. A low flying Super Tucano is better off using a 50 caliber than a 6th generation stealth fighter flying at 25,000 feet. It's basically apples and oranges.

[@terrynewsome6698]

@@fightertales fair enough, I was just talking about why the gun slinger still has a place in aviation. But I will take a f-35b loaded down with aim 120 over a gun pod any day

[@concordemakesvideos1070]

Lazerpig sends his regards. Can you tell him to give me my family back now?

[@fightertales]

I'm currently in negotiation

[@GorduzBackstabber]

main gun usage would be anti drone operations, which arguably makes the gun relevant again...

[@fightertales]

Most drones worth sending a jet after are big enough to be whacked by missiles, tbh.

[@ulvschmidt7174]

@@fightertales but missiles cost way more so if you can swatt them with something cheaper thats prefferable i reckon

[@terrynewsome6698]

@@fightertales yes but would you waste a 200,000 aim 120 or 50,000 dollar sidewinder on a shead 136 if you could just tag it with a 2,000 dollars worth of 20mm ammo?

[@fightertales]

​@@ulvschmidt7174 I'll have to go into the first jet vs. Drone engagement sometime. I wouldn't want to mess with a drone that might be packing air to air missiles like that predator was.

[@madkoala2130]

And how would you hit it, if that drone is smaller then a car. Missiles are too expensive and guns arent reliable enough to hit small low flying target (plus most people who advocate guns on planes are forgetting that those bullets need to land somewhere even if they miss the target, it could land on someone's home and do mini A-10 war crime on innocent bystanders)

[@exudeku]

The Fartcannon is something someone must've prayed if they hear it, both for each sides

[@dieselelectricrazor377]

Aviation Twink gets a sub

[@KoishiVibin]

Glad I wasn't the only one to think of that lol

[@0570965]

You never have "A one weapon for all situations." And when you need it, and don't have it. Your singing the sad blues.

[@loganjelinek2226]

I'll admit I'm here from the Pig, but seeing "Somewhere in Nevada..." earned my instant subscription before the video even started.

[@matthewwolfe9417]

As a Navy Corpsman who served with ANGLICO, I have never heard the sound “brrrrt” and thought good things, it was usually “oh, yayyyyyy the plane known for killing the people who called for it”

[@matthewwolfe9417]

I love this though Falcon and would love to see a piece on the other end of that interaction as a member of the most elite group of Marine ordinance callers (who just seemed to be a magnet for shit). The war in Ukraine (funny enough) features almost exclusively Forward observers trained by 5th ANGLICO (my unit) and Air Force FO’s.

[@fightertales]

I've actually been trying to do research on ANGLICO as (youtube shit aside) I do historical reenacting and milsims. Me and the boys are putting together a 1985 2nd ANGLICO FCT for a Cold War event called "Red Divide". Most of the group is made up of Marine vets but we've had trouble finding fine details about ANGLICO from word of mouth. Would love to chat with you someday about this!

[@vivecald-vehk6978]

The content is well designed and narrated well, and it's only onward and upward from here it seems! Subbed

[@howardbartlett3026]

We don't very often give a thumbs down on a video but this one I'd give a thousand but could only give one. Former Air Force Commandant General Robin Olds who flew in WWII and F-4s in Vietnam with NO GUNS and NO DOGFIGHTING capability in Vietnam is ashamed of you for forgetting the past. The man that trained me to fly F-5E/Fs Tiger IIs (after I was maintaining, repairing and often flying in the back seat of F-14 Tomcats while working for Grumman Aerospace) that I flew for 32 years (1988 to 2021) flew F4s in Vietnam, went to FWS (Fighter Weapons School) and then flew F-14As until he retired thinks you are very misguided (I'm being oh so kind right now). Don't even get me started based on my 32 years of experience which included dogfighting MIG-21s and Venezuelan F-16As. Bottom Line. Hell will host the Stanley Cup and Winter Olympics before we subscribe to this channel ! BTW - Lets not even talk about close air support (CAS) and only having LAU-61s as your only alternative if I had no guns and was out of Mavericks

[@bobtank6318]

F-4 is addressed in the video, but to summarize, the AF adding a cannon didn’t actually increase kill rates in Vietnam. The Navy, which instead invested more into increasing the effectiveness of pilot training, experienced a large jump in kill rate It wasn’t not the lack of a gun that hampered US aircraft in Vietnam, it was the atrophied training of US pilots during the period.

[@howardbartlett3026]

@@bobtank6318 I'm well aware that the F-4 was addressed in the video. Also the lack of and / or poor training especially in dogfighting. The external gun pod option whether USN or USAF messed with the F-4s flying capabilities in a negative way. According to my USN flight trainer mentioned above and General Robin Olds amongst others I've known that were actually there. that tried the gun pod option. Note that I also mentioned the USNs FWS but left out the USAF training solution. Anything further and it is probably best to agree to disagree on the subject. I still gave you a thumbs up anyway.

[@bobtank6318]

@@howardbartlett3026 I prefer actual kill rate data over one guy's opinion.

[@fightertales]

Thanks for watching the video and I can understand where you're coming from. I think you'll actually enjoy the video I have planned that will cover TOPGUN and the Ault Report. What it comes down to is that we kicked ass through knowledge, experience and skills that adapt to a changing battlefield. Even though we disagree on the subject I appreciate you taking the time to write an extensive comment. Its important that we all have different perspectives on the matter, be the actual historical data or anecdotal.

[@howardbartlett3026]

@@bobtank6318 I'll take EXPERIENCE over numbers any day.

[@Ralnon]

LaserPig pointed me here: very much worth the click, interesting take on the matter.

[@andmcd1996]

Honestly solid vid! Quality work!!

[@Turmtxt]

Here from LP, Wow this channel is underrated I love it keep it up!

[@badgerdad777]

Your reasoning is spot on. Cool footage of the Venezuelan cannon usage.

[@ARGONUAT]

Well put together and well said. There is a legitimate difference between modern digital and classic analog. I still would like to have the analog available if all else goes wrong, but I recognize that this is a modern digital world.

[@doubledekercouch]

Alot of signs point to yes but as soon as they’re removed they become necessary

[@KageRyuu6]

Sure, they might not get used much if at all, but like the bayonet it's reassuring to have it should all else fail. Not to mention it can still assist carrier groups and ground bases by providing a mobile AMS against cruise missiles.

[@jonwop]

Lazerpig put me within visual range of this video.

[@ceoofsocialanxiety6658]

Cool video. Really liked it and learned something too.

[@avi8aviate]

"I swear I'll explain what that means someday" In the past, when that was first a rule of air-to-air combat, it meant blinding the enemy with the sun so they couldn't get a shot as easily a dogfight. Now, it means causing any enemy IR-guided missiles to home in on the sun instead of your engines. Plus, if you're flying directly away from the sun, it looks super cool.

[@Dominionthayde]

Lazerpig suggested I give you a watch and I am glad he did.

[@Malice1111]

great editing and art.

[@hippypunk]

I was sent by LazerPig and he wasn't wrong this is good stuff. Like, sub, and comment to feed the algorythim but always great to see another channel doing cool aircraft content, looking forward to more Falcon keep it up.

[@fightertales]

Thanks man!

[@lornamorgan3575]

Got the recommendation from LazerPig. Good vid. Will catch up with the others later.

[@varrunningtrains4112]

Such a fantastic video, loved the points using data about gun kills post Vietnam. Subbed and can’t wait for more!

[@zbeen-ah-lah]

I’ve heard that the bulk of Iran’s kills with the F-14 were either with the AiM-54 Phoenix, or the M61. Most kills of course going to the pheonix. The reason sparrow and sidewinder kills were so low is because they were using older models of the sparrow and winder. (They also have a few kills with the MiM-23, including one on a MiG-29)

[@deadsnake_war]

One thing you forgot, during the South African Border the only known gun kill of a jet vs jet engagements was a mirage F1CZ vs a Mig21bis, where the mirage missile failed to lock and launch. There is a video of the Mirage F1CZ downing a MiG21 over the skies in Angola.

[@fightertales]

Oh shit I have to see this

[@deadsnake_war]

@@fightertales tried to send the sends links, google doesn't like it. So when I have send it, it got removed, is there anyway I can send it to you

[@retrocd7991]

Fair play to the pig for brining us here

[@1977Yakko]

LazerPig sent a recommendation. Great video! Subbed. As for the gun, I wonder of it'll be replaced by a laser turret at some point. One capable of hitting planes in visual range and maybe even shooting down incoming missiles.

[@fightertales]

Thanks! And who knows? I can see it being a thing

[@f8less667]

Really enjoy your style. You definitely have potential. Keep it up!

[@quorzat]

Any video that starts with somewhere in Nevada is a good video

[@hewhoneverdies001]

Super cool choice of music on your videos :)

[@OutsideTheTargetDemographic]

Lazerpig sent me, your video kept me, a sub was made today.

[@Hustler9g]

Hey keep making these they a good videos and will blow up soon enough

[@Poctyk]

Imagine during design and construction of HMS Dreadnought someone nagged Fisher that he didn't leave room for sails as "well 60 years ago steam ships didn't have enough fuel for long journeys" as well as grapeshot for dem boarding action. It's not 1960's granpa! Your hearing aid has more processing power then all USAF combined had in Vietnam.

[@bobtank6318]

I wonder how many people in the comments actually watched the video… But great job. I loved the style and you seemed to be relatively knowledgeable on the subject matter. I look forward to seeing your future content.

[@fightertales]

I have to wonder too. Everyone thinks Im saying we have to rip the gun out of our planes lmao

[@bobtank6318]

@@fightertales I actually just read some articles on Vietnam kill ratios that seem to suggest that it was neither the gun nor the training that caused the issues. It was in fact a lack of situational awareness caused by insufficient radar coverage. I think that checking them out would be a good read. They are "The Vietnam Air War's Great Kill-Ratio Debate" on HistoryNet and "The Red Baron Reports: What They Really Said" in Air Power History. Both are by William Sayers and they reference the Red Baron Reports written after the war by the Air Force.

[@fightertales]

@@bobtank6318 I'll have to check it out!