Mistakes Writers Make With Genre - Brooks Elms

[@TheGeneralDisarray]

I remember a great interview with Hugo Martin, creative director of the Doom game that came out in 2016. One thing he said was, in essence, "a movie audience is very receptive to new things in the first 15 minutes. They're like 'what world do you want me to go to? OK let's go.' But after that 15 minutes, if you switch to something different, they get super upset"

[@nataliaturner4845]

Or receptive during the 1st act, I would say (just noticed yesterday that the 1st act of Back to the Future lasts a whole 30 minutes! 🤯)

[@fotipitrakkos1193]

The most brilliant breakdown and exploration of genre elements and how they can be used in story, to my mind is the Elemental Genre season of a podcast called Writing Excuses. It's a deep deep dive into this very subject by a bunch of legit writing masters. Though the podcast is directed at writing prose, it overlaps with any storytelling form quite readily - couldn't recommend it enough to any writer. Another great interview. Thank you.

[@thereccher8746]

To me genre exists as a template to set up the reader's expectations. If you open a film or a novel with a man murdering his family with an axe, we intuitively come with a set of expectations. A face in a mirror, a demonic entity that turns people insane, creepy noises and flickering lights would all feel like they belong in that movie. If the next scene is a three stooges skit, the audience will be left confused.

[@cward1218]

Confused and possibly angry.

[@frenstcht]

If you order a chicken salad sandwich, you want a chicken salad sandwich and not some buffoon's interpretation of one.

[@stephanmarcus448]

What do you have against David Lynch?

[@samm2507]

Genre vs tonal inconsistency.

[@paulpeterson4216]

An action-adventure, romantic-comedy, with fantasy and horror elements that is a great movie, but was not an initial commercial success because of the mixed genre, was The Princess Bride.

[@BrooksElms]

The PRINCESS BRIDE is such a WONDERFUL movie! I'd say that the primary genre is comedy, and everything else are supporting elements. And that's a balance that works just fine. It gets muddy when there is more than one primary genre.

[@irichmediatv]

I like the illustration with the triangle wheels on a car

[@Project862006]

one of my fav "monster in the house" films is dont breathe since it flips it where the monster is perceived as the victim in the beginning(blind old man living alone dealing with robbers) and as the film goes you see his true nature

[@BrooksElms]

Yes! Excellent example.

[@glanni]

This channel has amazing videos! This interview in particular opened my eyes.

[@DarkHorseDanny]

"Wanting something that you really shouldn't go after and you do it anyway and then it brings out the monster" That's exactly what happens with my MC in my screenplay

[@filmicviper]

Seeing this comment was literally the “aha” moment for me in writing my next short film, I just have to say thank you.

[@DarkHorseDanny]

@@filmicviper I appreciate being an inspiration ❤️ good luck in writing your screenplay! I’m positive you’ll do amazingly!!

[@filmcourage]

What genre is the hardest to learn?

[@sanketsharma5997]

Comedy

[@Stewbular]

The, don’t underestimate the intelligence of your audience, genre

[@sanketsharma5997]

@@darnellmajor9016 True. But I find it the hardest to write.

[@mr.uncleg5307]

@@darnellmajor9016 doesn’t mean it’s done well, or the writers thereof find their own work entirely satisfying.

[@nr1229]

Writing in general is something you can learn. But you cannot learn a genre. Not possible. You can't learn a horse or a bike; you can only learn how to ride. Of course with time you can get comfortable in a genre, but nothing more.

[@thumper8684]

From Dusk Til Dawn was great. So was Psycho.

[@moetarded7757]

Coming of age is hard to make so it captures and hold the viewers attention. Sometimes too predictable.

[@elduderino5390]

Science fiction is ONLY a genre when the story presents the possible effects (good or bad) of technology/future society and, in film, is ALMOST ALWAYS mixed with some other genre. Otherwise it's a SETTING. Blade Runner is a scifi noir thriller. Logan's Run is a scifi thriller. Gattaca is a scifi drama with some coming-of-age elements. Star Wars is a Hero's Journey epic with a scifi setting. Alien is a horror movie with a scifi setting. Starship Troopers is military action with a scifi setting (unlike the book which, if truly made into a film, would be a scifi military thriller with a political slant).

[@jrobertlysaght]

Starship Troops is fascinating. If I told you I was making a movie of that book, you'd probably think 'this will be a real propaganda/recruitment fest for the Military'. But then Verhoven, from the bones of that same story, comes up with a biting satire on fascism. Such an interesting case.

[@BrooksElms]

Yup! Very well said.

[@dm_ex_machina3395]

Starship Troopers is a satirical comedy with a sci-fi setting. The action is incidental to the tongue in cheek tone and overall message.

[@elduderino5390]

@@dm_ex_machina3395 I could argue it's both, but yeah, there's that element of satire of blind (ignorant maybe) nationalism.

[@Flamebloxer]

Thank you for making this vid! This video helps me a lot with my script!

[@BrooksElms]

Glad it's helping!

[@concernedcitizen7385]

A lot of great info here. Brooks really knows his craft and explains it very well 👍🏽 🙏

[@cward1218]

When Brooks Elms said, "Genre is a set of expectations", I wanted to stand up and applaud. You can't disrespect the movie goer by not giving them what they are expecting and wanting.

[@Stewbular]

A formula for a boring generic film Yawn

[@Zeburaman2005]

@@Stewbular Hey smart arse, give us 10 examples of movies that don’t set up any kind of expectations at all.

[@Stewbular]

@@Zeburaman2005 Only 10?

[@Zeburaman2005]

@@Stewbular Got problems counting to 10? Get to it already and stop stalling.

[@Zeburaman2005]

@@Stewbular We’re waiting…

[@georgebrooks7899]

He had me until he bad-mouthed From Dusk Til Dawn. I absolutely LOVE that film! The "WTF?!" moment when the story switched is one of my favorite things about it.

[@BrooksElms]

Wonderful! I love that that enjoyed that twist. The point is that I believe the majority of the audience feels differently than you about that sort of thing. While you were delighted with that turn, I think the audience response metrics show others feeling too confused / uneasy with that turn, because of deep-seated promises & expectations with genre. I think this is a window into how you think differently, and perhaps an indication of your Superpower. By the way, if we were to get married and I took your name, my name would be Brooks Brooks. :-)

[@dm_ex_machina3395]

@@BrooksElms part of the job of the creative is to push those boundaries and redefine them in new context...we wouldn't have the neo-noir genre if subverting genre wasn't well loved. And Dusk Til Dawn is considered a classic. They even made a TV show out of it. While it may have turned the initial audience away it clearly had a long lasting influence despite that. If you care more about initial sales than creativity or legacy, than sure, you might call that a failure. But I don't measure success that way and I don't think most movie lovers do either.

[@ThePeytondoug]

100% agree. Such a fun movie. I’d say Bulletproof was less appealing

[@ThePtlhome]

This "sin" factor is very interesting! I can think of many great horror films that follow this template, in regard to the sin factor. - The Excorcist: the girl played with the Quiji Board, and, perhaps the mother was a bit preoccupied with her film career, not to mention the sin of the Father, who was not present; and the self-percieved sin/guilt of the son/Priest, who feels he was not there for his Mother, prior to her death, as he feels he should have been. Also, The Witch: the confined space is the farm isolated in the wilderness. The sin is that the family broke from their community and isolated themselves. Poltergeist, again, the sin factor is clearly present: the development company left the bodies, due to greed. The classic Baby Jane, where the victim/sister attempted to kill Jane, out of jealousy, and lied about it for decades. And the list goes on, and on. I can also think of very successful horror films that do not adhere to this "sin" component. - A Quiet Place, for one. - I can't think of any perceived or implied sin in that film, yet, it's very successful. The Body Snatchers, or The War Of The Worlds, to name two more - very successful, yet no sin factor. Of course, these are horror/Sci-Fi, so perhaps this is the reason for their exception, but Allen's is too; however it definitely follows the sin factor rule, as the company was putting profit/greed over the safety and well-being if their workers. Perhaps these exceptions are the exceptions that prove the rule, which I believe is possible: every rule has its exceptions.

[@mistersharpe4375]

With Bodysnatchers and War fo the Worlds, those are indeed arguably horror stories. But to be specific, I'd say that those movies are less "monster in the house" horror, and more "Invaders from Outside" horror. Movies more like Red Dawn, but with sci-fi twists. The original War of the Worlds was just one of many pieces of "invasion literature" to appear in late 19th century Britain, which played into British fears at the time. Likewise, Invasion of the Body Snatchers was released during the "Red Scare", amid fears of communist subversion of American culture. Probably not a coincidence that the most famous War of the Worlds film was released during the same period.

[@stupidpol]

The "sin" factor is not inherent to the horror genre. It is inherent to American/protestant/puritanic culture which requires "bad" to be a manifestation of God's anger. "The cabin in the woods" deconstructs this effect brilliantly.

[@TheArtist808]

Wish i seen this sooner. This occurs in multiple media

[@johnrobinson4445]

His commentary is so accurate and yet so positive, I love it.

[@BrooksElms]

Thanks, John!

[@dejesusgaming6989]

Motivation speaker 🔊, can’t wait to finish my work

[@AnthonySherritt]

very well said

[@BrooksElms]

Thanks!

[@damc8415]

What about "Fargo," which was marketed as a true-life drama, a crime thriller and a comedy?

[@jamese9283]

Marketed broad spectrum to attract the largest audience, but it was pretty much just a black comedy.

[@BrooksElms]

@@jamese9283 Yup! I totally agree. Good call.

[@NiinaSKlove]

I’d say comedy is probably the hardest genre to learn. But then again, I guess any genre can be pretty challenging to learn, but comedy might be one the hardest genres to master.

[@BrooksElms]

Especially if we're not funny. 🙂

[@NewGoalsNewDreams]

I wonder what Bong Joon-ho would say 🤔 ? Parasite is a Comedy, Thriller, Drama, Dark comedy, Mystery masterpiece.

[@BrooksElms]

This is a great question. I'd call his work a "Bong Joon-ho film." It's a signature specialty film, which can successfully borrow from other genres as long as it has a distinct unified voice.

[@himwiththehair8118]

There's nothing wrong with mixing genres, though, that isn't what he said. Parasite is a masterpiece, a mix of genres made by somebody who knew what they were doing.

[@Fedorevsky]

Nah, it's just a black comedy.

[@diegooland1261]

I get the apples to apples idea. How about borrowing from a bunch of different movies? I want to get my character into the point of no return. Oh, in movie X, they do a really good job of that so I'm going to use how they did it. I'm not talking a one-for-one cut 'n paste but using different stories to model my plot points on?

[@BrooksElms]

Yes. That's an awesome way to develop your craft. The key is to maintain the right balance of elements, especially when we borrow from other movies that have a different set of elements than our story.

[@frenstcht]

Serious question: Monster-in-the-house movie has an antagonist, a location, and a character flaw in the protagonist. Isn't that too broad to have any meaning?

[@jamese9283]

Yes. More development needed.

[@frenstcht]

@@jamese9283 Turns out I was uncharitable; found Snyder's list online and it looks like a useful tool. I don't think it replaces genre but supplements it. If you've studied math, you can think of it as a change of variables, like switching from Cartesian- to polar coordinates to make a problem more tractable. Sorry, that's the only good analogy I have.

[@HorrorSFManiac]

I couldn't disagree more. If someone who's not doing anything wrong or looking for trouble gets killed that's a lot more powerful and brutal and dark, because it's a senseless death not a punishment.

[@atTheHop]

I disagree. Those types of victims you described are usually reserved for the opening scene, or minor characters. But for the protagonists, they need to have done something immoral or questionable that sets the story in motion. It's how we get invested in the story.

[@HorrorSFManiac]

@@atTheHop Yes, we disagree.

[@magnuskallas]

I agree. An element of sin might be present, but in some cases it is something as trivial as cowardice, which isn't actually a sin. Eden Lake comes to mind.

[@jimmybalantyne5545]

I like this guy.

[@BrooksElms]

This guy likes you too. 🙂

[@lonjohnson5161]

My problem with genre is that I write a story first, then I try to figure out what genre it fits.

[@SysterYster]

That's interesting! When I write it's often obvious what genre it is, but sometimes it can be more than one. Like my biggest story, dark fantasy adventure tragedy with horror elements. lol. But to simplify I just say it's a dark fantasy. Do you go back in editing and add genre-specific elements afterwards? Or is it that you just don't know which genre is the main one, when you write?

[@DMichaelAtLarge]

Why are you calling that a problem? One, if it works for you, do it! Two, I do that myself.

[@BrooksElms]

I don't see a problem with that either. Explore your story in whatever way feels inspired for you. And then at some point in the process, think about it from the perspective of genre, and what your audience will be expecting.

[@DyenamicFilms]

I think that most successful movies have at least elements of several genres. Jaws (my all time favorite movie) is a great example. It's not a comedy, but it has humor and is funnier than a lot of movies that call themselves comedy. Honestly, Jaws is kind of hard to classify as I don't necessarily think of it as a horror movie either. It certainly has elements of horror as it does comedy. It also has elements of an adventure movie or thriller. I think when it comes to horror/thrillers, you need a bit of humor sprinkled in there. Not too heavy on the humor where it verges on actual comedy though because, yeah, true horror-comedy is difficult to pull off. Abbott and Costello Meets Frankenstein does it well as does An American Werewolf in London. Weird though because I think of Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein as more of a comedy than horror, but American Werewolf as more a horror movie than comedy.

[@BrooksElms]

Just because a movie has humor, doesn’t make it a comedy. JAWS is horror because the main promise is fear, which it delivers wonderfully. Still might be my fav Spielberg film.

[@DyenamicFilms]

@@BrooksElmsI don't know where I said if a movie has humor, it's a comedy (I didn't). I stated Jaws is NOT a comedy, but if Abbott and Costello Meet Frankenstein isn't a comedy, I don't know what is. I won't argue that Jaws isn't a horror film.

[@BrooksElms]

@@DyenamicFilms Yes! You're right. My mistake. We are seeing this the same way.

[@plan9fromsyracuse]

KZbin @jawsob jaws obsession. I always liked this video and wanted to tackle this topic of Jaws being a horror film. Jaws is one of this rare movies that jumps genres..drama, adventure, horror....John Williams score dictates that genre in each scene. Its truly remarkable. Crissy attack- horror. Quint and the first barrel chase-adventure. Brody and Sean dinner table scene-drama. Wonderful.

[@adroitws1367]

The thing is, genre is created to easily market it to audience. Its not really helpful in creating a story. Interestingly what he said about genre is sound like what we all know as trope, which is actually the helpful part in writing story. Anyway, be careful when diving trope website, otherwise you will forgot to spend time writing your story lol)

[@BrooksElms]

Check Blake Snyder's approach to genre. It's exceedingly helpful in creating your stories.

[@erickenneycreative]

From Dusk Till Dawn cost 19 million and earned 60 million Cabin in the Woods cost 30 million earned 70 million In the 80s horror comedies were a constant. Mixing Genre is actually the key to success We are attracted to subversion. The Departed is a Crime/Romance The Dark Knight is a Superhero/Crime/Heist film Alien is a Sci Fi Slasher film Alien 2 is Scifi Action War film Alien 3 is a SciFi Prison Film Alien 4 and Prometheus are simply Scifi films which is why they are lacking Alien Covenant is a Scifi Gothic Horror which is why is a return to form

[@jon4715]

Departed being a crime/romance is a real stretch. And Dark Knight doesn't follow the heist genre framework at all. There is a heist scene, and the villain engages in some of some clever bait and switches...but that's all. Prometheus is an interesting one. It has a lot of body horror, but you're right it's not really horror. And I'd wager it's not sci-fi, that's really just a setting. There is no science/logic-based reasoning or problem solving that would usually define science fiction. No wonder it floundered, not much interesting happens. I guess the twist with Guy Pearce at the end.

[@erickenneycreative]

@@jon4715 I agree that maybe labeling the Departed a romance is heavy handed on my part but the romance in it is a huge factor in humanizing Leo and is what directly damns Damon's character. I simply feel like the romance is integral to its plot and characters much like it plays a major factor in Carlito's Way or Heat which are similar movies. Speaking of Heat, from the moment the Dark Knight was released correlations to Michael Mann's work especially Heat have been made by fans and critics alike. I would argue the movie opens with a heist, Batman in China is a heist, Joker methodically stealing away the soul of Gotham is a heist, methodically turning Dent is a heist all executed with precision.

[@nr1229]

I loved reading your correspondence. You guys really know your stuff.

[@jon4715]

@@erickenneycreative So The Dark Knight has a bunch if heist scenes in it, but does that make it a heist movie? In Heat, you have the lead up to the heist and the extended come down from the heist...it all centers around one event. Go watch Rififi for a heist movie. It's a stretch, but the heist in the Dark Knight is the breaking out of the Joker, and that's it. As for The Departed, the love interest is little more than a plot device according to what you've explained. She serves only to illustrate the differences in character between Leo and Damon. That's a very loose romance...so loose I think you could drop in a completely different characterization and it wouldn't affect the story.

[@erickenneycreative]

​@@jon4715 Like I said in an earlier post, calling Departed a romance is heavy handed on my part. But my opinion on The Dark Knight stands firm. I enjoy the back and forth and I agree to disagree.

[@tolvfen]

What if you do not have those sins or taboos?

[@chrisd7733]

This is a good interview. His advice not to mix genres is exactly the opposite of what John Truby has said and written on the same topic. Makes you think, doesn't it?

[@BrooksElms]

I'm not sure what Truby said about this, but I generally agree with much of his theories. The key is to listen to the theories and find your own way.

[@chrisd7733]

@@BrooksElms Thank you for the reply. I may be misquoting John Truby slightly, but he believed that ever since Star Wars (western, science fiction & samurai genres combined) it was necessary for every writer to be able to combine genres because this is what studios and the public wants. Many screenwriting experts are quite dogmatic about their theories, and he seems to be convinced that screenwriters will be less successful if they stay within only one genre for a project. With that said, I liked his book "The Anatomy of Story" and I can't really disagree with him, except that I disagree with just about anyone who is very dogmatic about a single approach. Once you go that route, there are many exceptions that cannot fit into your model -and, as with investments in any area, past performance is no guarantee of future performance. So I rather like your idea - expressed thoughtfully and with kindness - that writing within a single genre is an avenue to success if done well.

[@BritneyLaZonga]

@@chrisd7733 He also said (if I remember correctly) that the most movies today - especially the sucessfull ones - are genre mixes. The challenge is, I think, to really get to the point where you are a "master" of the, let`s say, two genres you want to combine. I bet most aspiring writers just think/say to themselves "I don`t need to know the distinctive genres in and out, I just throw elements together and be "above" the whole "know your genre" spiel" (I must know, because I think that most of the time ;D ) That is probably what the warning "Don`t mix genres" means - more like "Don`t mix genres, if you are not a master of the genres you want to use".

[@BrooksElms]

I think Truby is talking about the concept of “the same, but different “

[@anthonydavis4829]

Great advice. In horror stories less is more.

[@DMichaelAtLarge]

Now I could have sworn that in the last few days I watched one of these videos (forget the writer) where the guy insisted that movies and TV shows these days almost require a mixing of two or three genres. I'm not buying Brooks' rigid insistence that you can't mix genres. Like for example, take "The Green Mile." It's a crime drama. No, it's a prison drama. [Halfway through:] Omigod it's a fantasy!

[@BrooksElms]

Try it with your own screenplays and see what results you get! The best proof is always in the pudding. The key thing to keep in mind is: what are we promising the audience (with our genre)? And be sure you deliver that wonderfully.

[@DMichaelAtLarge]

@@BrooksElms I have, with about a dozen or so screenplays.

[@BrooksElms]

@@DMichaelAtLarge Awesome! If that approach makes producers happy and gets your scripts sold - keep doing it that way!

[@irichmediatv]

Good

[@nicholasflavius6782]

E. Michael Jones baby, E. Michael Jones.

[@Dead_Pool_Rising]

The monster in the house thing is... I get where he's coming from but the sin? That's the exact reason I don't watch those movies. The moment I see the teenagers doing drugs or whatever it is. I know exactly what's going to happen, who will die first, everything. Those movies bore me to tears. I would love to watch one where there wasn't the initial sin. Where I didn't have someone else's ridiculous moral sensibilities crammed down my throat, and didn't know exactly how the whole thing was going to play out within the first ten minutes of the movie. There is nothing wrong with doing drugs. Nothing wrong with having sex before marriage. Nothing wrong with a lot of things Christian values say is wrong.

[@TotalRookie_LV]

Yeah, promise a comedy, but deliver the _new_ Ghostbusters. And like that was not bad enough, then blame the audience! XD

[@tuvoca825]

Not loud enough. I turned up both KZbin and my computer and still had to struggle to hear him. Not everyone can turn off all the noise around them to compensate and I can hear someone across the house in conversational tone about as well as this. No problems with other KZbin videos. It's not me, it's you. Please fix this for the listeners.

[@habitualresistor9548]

If you ask me, that is just over complicating things. All you need: develop your characters, and you can pretty much add them to any genre. Also, concentrate on theme & concept. That will keep you more focused on how your story should go. If you, somehow--which this is just plain weird to me--forget what genre you're writing...you probably need to do some mom or exercises. Just my opinion, but yeah.

[@damc8415]

But what about a movie like "Blazing Saddles," which was a comedy, a Western, a political satire and a musical? All those genres meshed successfully. Likewise, humor and comedy worked well together in "Scream" and "American Psycho."

[@BrooksElms]

Naw BLAZING SADDLES is mostly comedy.

[@damc8415]

@@BrooksElms Mel Brooks and John Wayne met in the commissary of Warner Brothers during the making of "Blazing Saddles," and John Wayne said, "I heard you're making a WESTERN where you say, 'Blow it out your a--.'" (Emphasis added.) If the Duke considered "Blazing Saddles" to be a Western, then no other opinion matters. Yes, the film was "mostly" a comedy, but also a Western, a political satire (which dealt with 1970s racism, tokenism, eminent-domain fights and political corruption) and a musical (with songs from Frankie Lane, Madeline Khan, Cleavon Little, the Count Basie Band, a Greek chorus of Rock Ridge residence, and Dom DeLuise's dancing revue).

[@wilpuriarts5895]

Blazing Saddles is a comedy in a certain setting. Almost all movies are mixtures of things, they are not ”pure”. What would comedy be without other genres and settings, just stand up. Blazing Saddles happens in the Wild West, Holy Grail in Camelot. Both are comedies, both have different layers of humor and both are actually part musical. I think the point is, think what you are trying to do. You can’t throw the killer bunny in the middle of Game of Thrones, the genres don’t mix that way.

[@EricGraham94]

Zack Snyder’s Justice League, a master class of superhero cinema, is able to blend genres together effectively - action, fantasy epic, science fiction, mythology, and horror.

[@BrooksElms]

The primary genre is action, sub-genre is superhero. Everything else are supporting elements.

[@TotalRookie_LV]

How do you call an author of a script of a horror movie? A scream-writer.

[@jameswoodard2232]

'Kind of' ... 'You know'...'Sort of'... 'Kind of like'... Please learn more English before attempting to teach myself. Nice try.

[@BrooksElms]

If you find these ideas helpful, you'll probably love my new book (and the cool bonuses that come with it) www.brookselmscoaching.com/book/

[@nailinthefashion]

Just bought your book and it took every atom of me to resist crying after getting to the overview of the steps. I had just thought earlier about these first few-- about how I know why I want to write now, not just what. I wanted to distill that and my movie/book concepts into a sentence, to plant new seeds to grow from for 2023. Thanks for confirming I'm on the right track. I think you're such a gem to the community

[@BrooksElms]

@@nailinthefashion Wonderful! Really glad these ideas have been helpful for you. 🙌🏻