Final Fantasy VII Rebirth Theory Talk with

Ultimate Final Fantasy VII Rebirth theory talk with ‪@AliyaWill‬ ! Check out our Couple Channel, ‪@PhilipandAliya‬
Follow me on twitch.tv/philiphartshorn
Follow my twitter: philipharts
Join my discord to help me choose my next video: / discord
Watch my new film on my main channel: / philhartshorn
#finalfantasyviirebirth #finalfantasyvii

[@thehoneybunempress1664]

Thank you, Aliya, for being intuitive to pick up on why Tifa has always been the biggest threat to Sephiroth's control over Cloud. My favorite parts in the trilogy. 1:25:17 good example of why this nonsensical love triangle debate and obsession over shipping not only ignores the heart of the characters and story, but really paints the characters in a really negative. It's always Aerith is a sleazy, selfish backstabbing b*itch who wants to project her dead bf onto a messed up Cloud, or Tifa is a gaslighting b*tch and the two girls hate each other. Neither is true to their characters!

[@AliyaWill]

We cooked I fear… Too excited for part 3. You inspire me!

[@PhilipHarts]

I love talking to you about this and sharing the experience!! Thanks for talking with me!

[@BLa-lq2bs]

Gaslight Canyon🤣. That got me. Love the ideas! The fact that y’all are fresh off OG definitely gives you guys a good perspective for sure. Haven’t played it in years honestly 🥴.

[@metastase895]

Cloud killing Sephiroth is explained in OG. Cloud was wearing the Pre-Emptive materia for that entire sequence.

[@philodygmn]

01:21:00 Sephiroth’s obsession with Cloud as his only truly capable enemy isn’t the only factor: Hollander mentions near the end of Crisis Core that Cloud is the last source of pure “S” cells, meaning Cloud _physically_ possesses the only remnants of Sephiroth’s original living body. Sephiroth’s being the first ever injected with Jenova in-utero could also mean that in order for Sephiroth to be complete, even with a re-grown body, he needs Cloud’s Jenova-infected “S” cells in order to fully integrate his own will against Jenova.

[@bungifish2227]

Wasn't Zack also injected with the S-cells? I think it was only cloud as Hojo was very interested in cloud not much so Zack.

[@thehoneybunempress1664]

​@@bungifish2227 I think so, but the cell became "corrupted" somehow. That's why genesis couldn't cure himself from degradation by...you know...eating zack's hair.

[@philodygmn]

@@thehoneybunempress1664 Precisely. And “cure” would have to be in quotes given Hollander likely unwittingly would be sealing his fate as an immortal Jenova zombie with no claim upon an end distinguishable from any of the clones to be re-absorbed eventually, unlike what it seems Genesis, Angeal, and in a sense also Sephiroth managed.

[@drummerjosh2112]

Saw you on Baby Seal’s episode. You guys are awesome! Great conversation. And as a newer member of the FFVII family, Aliya is an incredible theorizer! Thanks for sharing!

[@hencytjoe]

Oh boy, I love getting nerdy like this

[@KingdomKeyJT]

1:12:55. I believe that Cloud being able to beat Sephiroth as a normal random Shinra trooper is explained thematically rather than through lore reasonings. It is meant to show off that you don’t need to change your entire identity to be special. Cloud only realizes he beat Sephiroth AFTER accepting the fact that he was a nobody that never made it into SOLDIER. It’s ironic how Cloud wasn’t able to believe that he could beat Sephiroth when he thought of his identity as a strong and seasoned SOLDIER. But the MOMENT he accepts his REAL identity is the moment he BECAME special enough to beat Sephiroth. The message here is that ANYBODY can be special and you don’t need to change who you are in order to be special. All you need to do is be yourself. Sephiroth couldn’t do this, he couldn’t cope with the fact that he wasn’t special and was just created like the monsters in the reactor, and so he looked for EVERY reason that he could to see himself as a special god that had the world as his birth right. Cloud HAS to be stronger than Sephiroth in order for this theme to work.

[@drewtheunspoken3988]

Through Crisis Core, and other supplemental material, it's suggested that Cloud has immense potential. Chadley verifies this in Remake if you beat all the VR challenges. It seems he's only able to tap into this potential under extreme duress. This is also why he's able to defeat Sephiroth in Advent Children.

[@elfsong713]

​@drewtheunspoken3988 even Andrea Rhodea recognises Cloud's unlimited potential! 😊😉

[@elfsong713]

If Cloud only thinks that he is powerful because he was in SOLDIER or whatever, it's important for him to realise that he is not strong because of what he is, but who he is. When Cloud knows who he is, he is able to unlock his limitless potential.

[@PetarBladeStrok]

I think Sephiroth summons the real Black Materia using the "fake" one that acts like a key. That's why it looks more replete after. In cutscene before, he says the real Black Materia is hidden between worlds and the one in the Temple just acts like a key. It's not like in the OG, where the Black Materia is the Temple itself. Pretty cool! Also I 100% agree! Rufus is PEAK!

[@yodayun]

It's lovely to see a shared passion being discussed in front of us ;) GG to both of you, it's all very clever and engaging

[@AY-rf9xo]

Hearing Song of the Ancients at the beginning took me for a loop 🤣

[@michaellindley2292]

Another theory that remember being talked about a lot, is the idea that Sepiroth won't kill Aerith this time so she won't be in the lifestream to mess up this plans. People were saying "oh Seph screwed up when he killed Aerith". But not only does he kill her we see him actively hunting her down in different "worlds" and practically begging her to go down the same road so this throws a big wrench in that theory cause he's doubling down on making sure she ends up in the lifestream. I don't know his master plan but he's not scared of whatever Aerith is planned.

[@Tifalockheart7]

Absolutely loved both of your insights! Wonderful to see more women in the theory talk too, Aliya love your insights so much. Well done both ❤

[@helix_9645]

Damn, you know you have cooked something special if you had to write a document! I haven't finished watching the viedeo yet but here's the theory my brother and I came up with, after a lot of discussing. The Reunion at the northern crater in part 3 will cause a fusion of worlds, bringing back people like Zack and maybe Biggs(?). For this reason, Sephiroth is trying to preemptively hunt down every single Aerith in each one of them, so that once the fusion happens, she won't be in the reunited world. Apparently he succeeds in doing so, as we see in the dream before the sleeping forest. However, what Sephiroth didn't account for is cloud blocking his killing blow, thus saving aerith and, subsequently, creating another world in which the all-knowing Aerith can carry on existing - the one who helps cloud in the final fight. That would explain why she says: "I saw what you did back there. Thank you". Does this mean that Aerith will rejoin the party after the Northern Crater? We don't know. Maybe she could just be a presence. As for the emptied white materia, we know that it used to contain memories, so, now that it's empty it will be used to seal sephiroth/jenova's power and memories to defeat him once and for all. For anyone who read this, I hope I explained it well.

[@ocean_0602]

Really like the last part about the empty materia imprisoning Sephiroth/Jenova's memories. Big brain theory-crafting.

[@thapoppyman]

They are going to have to expand on Cloud's gameplay in part 3 so the black Materia that he sticks to his buster sword is going to be "dark knight" cloud. They hinted at it already in rebirth with Darkside Materia, and at the temple when cloud would go berserk overkilling Shinra troops. They are going to use the black Materia as a way to expand on clouds gameplay to make it even more intense. Basically its Black Symbiote Spiderman. He will have more aggressive moves, climhazzard, and of course omnislash. Which btw cloud tried to use against Sephiroth 2 times that sephiroth dodged flawlessly, once at the end of remake and in advent children when he catches cloud with Masamune when cloud goes for the final braver move. Which makes sense that sephiroth would know how to dodge omnislash if he's the same sephiroth that already experienced advent children and OG since thats the only move you can do against him at the very end of the OG game. I also predict them including clouds fusion sword which will enable him to dual wield swords in each hand. And I think Barrett will have his gun arm transform in and out of battle mode like it does in advent children. Im 99% sure about Barrett after reading remakes ultimatum.

[@thapoppyman]

The reason that Tifa and Aerith's relationship is so pronounced in rebirth in that they are friends is because Nojima said he was disappointed when he read reviews on OG and that people thought that Tifa and Aerith didn't like each other and that they were rivals. Thats why in the remake they purposely make it obvious that no they were in fact close friends. And also the date with Yuffie it wasn't just cloud pretending to play along with yuffie, he was reenacting the same exact thing that Zack did with yuffie when they met. Thats what yufffie whispered in clouds ear. To play along like Zack did.

[@jdunc635]

I know that the concept of multiverse might be overused at this point, but I feel like the multiverse/multiple worlds/etc. is unique in the Remake trilogy because it revolves around the idea of defying fate. In these games, other worlds are not created by biological or cosmological processes, but by challenging one's destiny. I think that's why Rebirth does not spend too much time focusing on all these other worlds (as much as it could have) because the central idea is not so much the nature of multi-reality as opposed to how multiple realities are made, i.e. fighting what is predestined. I think that's what is gonna make Part 3 so interesting after The Reunion. When worlds are merged, can Cloud and the gang still defy fate? Or is Sephiroth/Jenova/Dark Whispers in control now?

[@drewtheunspoken3988]

I think it helps to think of the new worlds as representations of "the road not taken." A visual representation of "what if I had done things differently?" That's assuming these worlds are "hopes & dreams" and not literal, physical places.

[@dreamphoenix]

Awesome explanations and all around energy! Thank you.

[@kingkarrot9304]

You guys are good, 1 of if not the best conversations I’ve heard on the game

[@elfsong713]

58:00 This was my initial impression, that the blank materia gave Cloud the ability to see into other worlds. So I'm glad I'm not the only one who had this thought. Also, I think Cloud handing the Black Materia to Sephiroth was purely symbolic. He wasn't physically handing it to Sephiroth because he was a projection. But Sephiroth forcing Cloud to bring it to him shows his ability to bend Cloud to his will and use him as a puppet.

[@Straychocobo]

So much fun to discover both of you recently, since I just can't stop thinking about this game and bow down to creators like yourselves who keep my wheels spinning in such joyful ways. Totally agree that we need more women (and WOC!) in the convo and looking forward to hearing more from @AliyaWill. Speaking of, would love to hear a female perspective on whether the energy of the party is going to feel imbalanced going into part 3 with only Tifa and Yuffie left in the group? Putting the chance that we'll still see Aerith here and there aside, is it too wild to think they will introduce a new female (or nonbinary) playable character to balance things out?

[@SuperTrailerz]

love the FFX theory, it really really works!

[@sylmg]

Sephiroth singing like Gaston will be the song for part 3.

[@maloskain]

🎵 Noooo onnnne smirks like Seph'roth No one broods like Seph'roth No one drops down and stabs you quite like Sephiroth 🎵

[@MushyUndTingly]

So one thing I noticed with Remake/Rebirth Jenova when compared to the OG. Remake had Jenova Dreamweaver. Then Rebirth had both Jenova Emergent and Jenova Lifeclinger. Well, while there is no OG equivalent of Jenova Dreamweaver, I imagine that if there was, it would be Jenova CONCEPTION. Emergent would be Jenova-BIRTH, and Lifeclinger would be Jenova-LIFE. So now I wonder in part 3, what will Jenova be called. Because there is Jenova-DEATH... and I wonder what the significance with be.

[@xcom54]

Death-bringer?

[@drewtheunspoken3988]

If Sephiroth kills "true Aerith" then who the hell shows up in the final phase of the Sephiroth battle? I'm not suggesting you're wrong (I obviously don't know that you are). But there are 2 things about that church scene. The first is that Sephiroth isn't carrying the Masamune. You would think the developers would have made sure he was carrying it for the implied threat. The second is that we don't see how that scene plays out. So, yes, it's possible we'll see her die there in a flashback in Part 3. But it still doesn't explain how she then shows up to fight alongside Cloud.

[@rebeccacarlyle1798]

Love you guys and your theory crafting. It all makes so much sense. I think all ff7 fans should watch this

[@yodayun]

Zack has Jenova cells but if I recall correctly from CC it didn't take since he's a Soldier Already and has mako. His DNA is already altered so Jenova cells couldn't be added a posteriori, which is why it worked with Cloud. So technically I don't know if Zack is necessary for the reunion at all...

[@emptymelodies3316]

Awesome discussion. Since you mentioned it, now I really want to see you react or breakdown RE1 Remake. Such a beautifully haunting game with its environment.

[@thapoppyman]

Sephiroths going to reiterate to cloud at worlds end at the very end "seven seconds to the end, what will you do with it? Lets see..."

[@SarmKhanTV]

Really captivating theories and thoughts love it

[@MrLightlike78]

33:25 Ayo- Running theory on that- Is that was the water burial scene. IIRC there's the rainbow effect and whispers flying around and the rest of the party in the distance looking on as Cloud lowers her onto the ground.....But, like a Tarantino film, it's out of order. Cuz our boys mind is sooo gone. Thank you Phil for pointing that out.

[@TheBlueFalconX]

So... FF7 Re-Trilogy is - how it / what - actually happened. FF7 OG is what the characters REMEMBER having happened after they forget the whispers.

[@MogsterKupo]

Thanks for the great discussion, left me with so much food for thought. Here's a question. When we see the burial in part 3, will the lake still be this seemingly bottomless pit that apparently only goes up to Cloud's waist? (and we won't question it at all) 😂

[@Duckywallpaper]

Asking the real questions here. I've honestly been wondering about this too.

[@JPlaysandDissects]

1:18:00 great call aliya!

[@xcom54]

as to how Cloud defeated Sephiroth in the Nibelheim incident, let us just borrow the concept from the movie Interstellar: it's the power of love, people. power of love. 😏 Then again, FF7 came out before Interstellar, so maybe Nolan borrowed the power of love concept from FF7.

[@Mcpblackheart]

Nice stream regarding Theories. Have you seen the Fan made FF7 Short Film Called Floor 67?

[@crashwithkirby6708]

I still don’t think sephiroth is corporeal as you might think. I think that there’s potentially a lot more mind manipulation than we even realize. For example, it’s possible that in cloud’s mind, he saw sephiroth kill the midgardsormr, however, he uses a tornado-like ability that’s suspiciously similar to cloud’s finishing touch LB. What if cloud was actually the one to finish off the snek? Then, at temple of the ancients, sephiroth use the “key” black materia and summons the “real” black materia from between worlds, but then… lets it drop? And makes cloud bring it to him? But what if he never takes the materia, only makes cloud and co think he has it? That would explain why cloud still has it at the end. If the party thinks sephy has it, they’ll rush to try and stop him from using it, not realizing that cloud is hiding the fact that he’s had it all along, and ultimately playing into sephiroth’s hands… by bringing it to his half-formed body in the northern crater. So I still think there’s enough evidence to doubt whether Sephiroth has actually reconstituted himself. Also, they keep emphasizing that whenever cloud sees sephiroth, the rest of the party aren’t seeing what he’s seeing. When cloud talks about how strong Sephiroth is after being “saved” from the midgardsormr, there’s half a beat of everyone looking a little confused. As far as they’re concerned, there’s no evidence that Sephiroth was ever there, they’re just playing along for clouds benefit. The one real exception to sephiroth’s physicality being blatant is when Tifa is inside the weapon, and because we assume this is taking place inside the Lifestream, it’s safe also to assume that whatever form Sephiroth takes there, the rules may be a little different than in the real world. We see him struggle to damage the weapon, and actually have to exert himself to get his blade through. On first viewing, I thought it was because the weapon is much stronger than he was anticipating… but now I think it could just as easily be that he’s not nearly as strong in the Lifestream as we think he would be. Just a few thoughts I had to get out of my screaming brain lol

[@SableWind]

I can't tell if it's bad scene/story design, but I agree, there's something very odd about the Sephiroth encounters. No one other than Cloud ever seems to react appropriately. There are a few exceptions - namely during the very end of Remake and Rebirth, and there are of course times where only Cloud can see him. But what about during the Drum, when Cloud confronts Sephiroth in front of hr Jenova tank? Or outside of the Temple of the Ancients, when Sephiroth appears to take the black materia, and Cloud is the only one everyone looks at? The Midgardsormr scene, like you said, is another. You'd think the squad would have more to say. On the other hand, there are scenes like in the Temple of the Ancients just before they get the Black Materia, where Aerith directly speaks to Sephiroth. When President Shinra and Barret gets stabbed by Sephiroth in Remake, everyone clearly sees that. Again, I can't tell if it's intentional because Cloud is the only one seeing him at certain times, or if it's just bad writing in those scenes. Drives me a little nuts lol. If the Cloud and Sephiroth confrontation in the Northern Crater occurs, where Sephiroth shows Cloud some of his false memories, and any of those false memories include the weird/off kilter moments where everyone has been acting funny about "seeing" Sephiroth, I'm going to lose my mind with Cloud, dude

[@Duckywallpaper]

These are some good points. I have been wondering if the rest of the party actually see's Sephiroth outside of a few moments. I haven't gone back and tried to pay attention yet. Maybe the only time the rest of the party can see him is when Jenova (or a piece of her) is present and he wants them to? Outside of Aerith because of her connection with the planet/lifestream.

[@drewtheunspoken3988]

​@@Duckywallpapermost of the time Cloud sees Sephiroth he is the only one. The rest of the party just sees the black cloaks. There are a couple of other times when Cloud sees him without the black cloaks, but in those instsnces, there are black whispers involved.

[@zeldaoot23]

Great discussion! I’m torn on whether Jenova needs to speak. It seems like her MO has always been to speak through those she impersonates. Though there MAY be a side quest line in Rebirth where we heard her voice a bit…

[@elfsong713]

I would like to see her as an actual character rather than just feel the effects of her power. She seems vague still so it would be neat to hear her speak, even just a couple lines of dialogue, to get a sense of what her essence really is.

[@JK-of3es]

Imagine being able to summon Aerith at the end in battle. That would be amazing. Red Aerith orb.

[@gabrielwilliams8809]

I've seen the video of what Sephiroth's real body is doing in the Northern Crater while waiting for Cloud. He's practicing One Winged Angel on a 8ft Trombone. Edit: There is another theory I have regarding the whispers. The planet and the lifestream is more of a psychological consciousness with emotions. The whispers are souls but act more like subconscious thoughts on a micro level to the cpu of the planet. If the planet is sad the humans are sad and visa versa. The Black Materia is literally a wish to kill the planet FROM the planet. So a Materia to just kinda negate a suicide like White Materia is just kinda like talking someone off a ledge. Ineffective 99% of the time. The clear materiacoupd be Black or White. My theory is that sacred Materia the GI stole that is the planet's Blank Check. It could be how we actually bring it all together. That said I want to here a discussion on Gilgamesh and his direct reference to the FF5 universe. His existence is proof that connects the franchise sequels. So does Sephiroth see them too? Thoughts?

[@yodayun]

Personally, the only scene I preferred in the OG compared to Rebirth was the Seto/RedXIII scene. The reason for that is that because of Gi nattack, the moment passes a bit too quickly for the emotional weight to fully impact me at this moment. On the other hand my favorite moment of the game probably was when Tifa is in the lifestream, i was going out of my mind!

[@maloskain]

Why do we think Sephiroth was manipulated and controlled by Jenova in Nibelheim, but not any other time? He has the Jenova cells just like the other soldiers. He clearly is manipulated by her in Nibelheim. What if she never stops manipulating him?

[@StefawnVan]

You both are just freaking DEAR human beings. Would be friends irl.

[@JPlaysandDissects]

one thing i've noticed i haven't seen anyone else say is when Zack gets sent back to the church, Aerith's body is not there. I think most people assumed Sephiroth killed Aerith in the church, her body would have been laying on the flowers.

[@drewtheunspoken3988]

They also miss that Sephiroth didn't have the Masamune when he enters the church, despite just having used it against Zack moments before.

[@JPlaysandDissects]

@@drewtheunspoken3988 indeed, nice catch

[@elfsong713]

It might not be the same church (different reality). We see different Stamp dogs in the world(s) Zack is in (terrier, pug, corgi). The one Cloud and Aerith wake up in has a palmeranian. But we don't know which one Zack ended up in.

[@xcom54]

1:38:00 I wonder if Akila, the FF7R travelling pop singer, would sing that song. 😏

[@dannyb9209]

I had another thought to...does cloud have to die at the end of part 3 to vanquish sephiroth forever? 👀

[@davidrich27]

lol what if cloud can use his power of self-delusion to “forget” Sephiroth ever existed? Only half-kidding.

[@dannyb9209]

@@davidrich27 fuck knows...I genuinely have no idea how this ends...it's bonkers 😂

[@SableWind]

I've always assumed that Sephiroth cannot truly die until Cloud does. Sephiroth's and Jenova's cells are literally in Cloud's DNA. Even if he can resist their influence, idk if Cloud can ever actually get rid of him. Unless Aerith, the Ancients, or the Gi are maybe able to purge Jenova cells themselves, I think Cloud is stuck with him for life. I think it's probably too dark for modern Final Fantasy, but I like the idea of Sephiroth being this parasitic soul attached to Cloud, with Cloud as this sort of "guardian" to keep him contained for the rest of his life. It would be sad, to know Cloud has this spectre over him the rest of his life. Sephiroth would be doomed still - Cloud will die one day, even if it's from old age - but I still love the concept.

[@dannyb9209]

@@SableWind I do love aspects of that...I like a tragic ending to a story but I feel like that'd upset too many people n square wouldn't do it...even myself after 25 years ...I think cloud deserves some happiness 😂

[@SableWind]

@@dannyb9209 yeah I guess I do want happiness for the poor kid lmao Whatever happens with Sephiroth, I hope they don't flub it. Putting my trust in Hamaguchi and Nojima on this one 🤞

[@dannyb9209]

Just finished it the other day and after getting over my initial feeling of nothing over watching the ending..it's growing on me ..I feel like the execution could've been slightly better...by the time I'd finished the 2 hours of boss battles id nearly forgotten what happened 😂 I feel like sephiroths plan is to keep cloud in denial so he doesn't have that drive to avenge Aerith and defeat sephiroth, while sephiroth is going to plant the seeds of doubt that cloud killed Aerith to turn the party against him. To basically completely break cloud and leave him alone with no tifa or friends to bring him back Probably extremely wrong 😂

[@samuelreynaldoff]

Sephiroth is attached to Cloud brain, as long as there is hate for him, he can come back. That why he keep telling Coud : your empty, fill your hollow heart with hate. What happened to Sephiroth? He filed his hollow heart with hate & rage to the point it consumed him. Becoming Jenova's puppet. What would happen if Cloud loses the fight in Edge of Creation (wish we know that the ending of OG that fight happens in his head) What if at the ending of Rebirth Sephiroth was ready to defeat Cloud a have his "vessel" but Aerith stopped it. Maybe tha is the point of Aerith appearing in the last fight....I don't know man I'm talking Sh-t

[@aaronhigham1251]

How did Jenova get into the lifestream when the Gi can't though?

[@PhilipHarts]

Through Sephiroth dying

[@elfsong713]

​@@PhilipHartsdoesn't her head fall in there with him?

[@jorgealonso9792]

I'll give you my theory as a guy who owns but has never finshed the og ff7 I have finished remake and rebirth. I think Sephiroth is actually just Jenova using Sephiroth's skin to torment cloud it's said she can use our fears against us and it's def cloud's and tifa's biggest fear!

[@drewtheunspoken3988]

I think the intent, in OG at least, was that Sephiroth's will subsumed Jenova's. She set things in motion in Nibelheim, but Sephiroth's wrath and despair drove him to conquer her.

[@elfsong713]

​@@drewtheunspoken3988I wonder when the switch happens. When does Sephiroth's will override Jenova's?

[@drewtheunspoken3988]

@@elfsong713 I think it was supposed to be sometime between the Nibelheim Incident and the start of the game.

[@elfsong713]

@@drewtheunspoken3988 so in that five year gap when he's in the lifestream? Do you think Cloud being awakened from the mako tank brought Sephiroth's awareness and caused him to become active again?

[@drewtheunspoken3988]

@elfsong713 That would actually make a lot of sense. It seems like they've been hinting at in Rebirth. Where Tifa wonders why Sephiroth seems to have reappeared at roughly the same time Cloud did. The connection didn't actually occur to me until I was literally writing that, and I wonder how I missed it. I mean, Tifa all but spells it out.

[@thapoppyman]

You lucky dog..

[@jamesmartin2740]

I felt like a third wheel watching this not gonna lie. Jk guys great work!

[@seank7227]

There is a negative liestream. Signified by black and the other is white.

[@maloskain]

I have a theory about why Zack and others are still alive. We are told that Jenova couldn't be defeated because she is not from the planet. Her cells can't break down and merge with the Lifestream. She can't "return" to the Lifestream, which is why she is seemingly immortal. Zack and other Soldiers (and Cloud) have Jenova cells in their bodies. Therefore, they also can't return to the Lifestream. They've been corrupted. The only way to "purify" them and have them return to the Lifestream would be for them to go to the Reunion, lose their Jenova cells, and then they can die. This would explain why Zack has avoided death so much. It also explains why Sephiroth didn't die. We can even use it to explain Genesis! Soldiers have Jenova cells, and while their other cells degrade, they can't return to the Lifestream until after Reunion.

[@SableWind]

That's an idea, but Biggs also jumped timelines, so it's not just people with Jenova cells. And Zack DID did die in the original and in Crisis Core, so something has fundamentally changed in FF7Retrilogy to allow some people to avoid their fates. I'm still very curious about Biggs' role in this. Clearly storyline wise he is meant to be a foil to Zack; unlike Zack, Biggs clings to the past, can't move on, has no hope for the future - and he dies because of it. But plot wise? There has to be some reason for him survive as long as he did. Sephiroth or Aerith saved him from his original fate, or else some other completely unknown factor saved him, but I'm still immensely curious why he was saved in the first place.

[@maloskain]

@SableWind The dream world isn't other timelines, they're Aerith's dreams filled with people she knows. Biggs ended up there because he used to run the leaf house in sector 5.

[@SableWind]

@@maloskain dreams, timelines, worlds, dimensions, however you want to refer to them, some people (Aerith and Sephiroth) can move between them seemingly at will, others by the extension of Aerith & Sephiroth or at moments of crisis (Zack & Cloud). I don't really see why the leaf house would be significant, or why Aerith would choose Biggs over Wedge for example. Nothing has been confirmed as of yet for why Biggs was saved.

[@maloskain]

@SableWind Aerith didn't really know Wedge. She met him and 5 min later he left her to help others. Aerith knew Biggs, possibly even grew up with him.

[@SableWind]

@@maloskain I was thinking the 5 mins she had with Wedge was more exposure than she got with Biggs, but I see Aerith was a bit more connected to Biggs according to Tale of Two Pasts. Still, it feels too disconnected. For them to have no in-game connection and for him to be saved and die for no plot-purpose, it feels odd. I'm wondering if there is still going to be more to this revealed in part 3

[@vb6548]

Great conversation but one girl would've been enough 😬

[@Ondansefurr]

Chadley is clearly Sephiroth's son.

[@lotus2001]

I think saying Aerith doesn’t love Cloud but loves the guy she barely dated 5 years ago is a huge reach, I would say her ambiguity in confessing her feelings comes from wanting to spare Cloud of as much grief as possible.

[@LeannaChadlin]

Aerith wrote Zack for 4 years, she loves/loved Zack. Regardless of whether they dated or not is irrelevant. It's not like Aerith officially dates Cloud either. And that's not to say Aerith doesn't love Cloud. It's clear she has feelings for him too. But the last letter she wrote to Zack was literally a few months before she met Cloud. She loved Zack and if you're really in love, that doesn't just fade away in a couple months. Especially since she waited for him for 4 years. Any romantic could see that as the logical conclusion. I think it's possible for a young woman like Aerith to love Cloud and Zack in different ways Then again, I'm a Cloti shipper so I see it differently 😊

[@lotus2001]

@@LeannaChadlin well there you go, being a Cloti shipper will give you a biased outlook and there it is. I never said she didn’t love Zack but to act like they shared even a fraction of the intimacy and connection Cloud and Aerith have shown eachother is laughable at best. Just as Aerith says, “gotta look forward, not back” I feel like you people have a twisted memory of crisis core, and forget how shallow Zack and Aeriths relationship is depicted.

[@lotus2001]

@@LeannaChadlin I do appreciate that your comment is kind though😁

[@PhilipHarts]

Aerith calls Zack her first love to Cloud multiple times. Zack refers to Aerith as his girlfriend in the flashback in rebirth. “Barely dated” is a much bigger reach. This is going off of only the game presented to us, no head canon or theories.

[@LeannaChadlin]

​@@lotus2001I mean Clerith shippers can be just as biased. Lol. We're all a bit biased I think. Which is fine, all ships are valid 😆 But also I think that it's really how we want to look at it. I didn't think the Zack & Aerith relationship was shallow. I think it wasn't perfectly executed but there were definitely moments that made it clear that their romance was real to both of them. Like when Aerith gave her a *list* of everything she wants to do with him which metaphorically was captured in the phrase "I want to spend more time with you"... Also writing him for 4 years doesn't feel shallow to me either. But like I said, we see what we want to see right? I see it as a very sweet and tender romance that was tragically cut short. Others might see it differently. It's all good

[@coldogno7]

tifa dont trust cloud...he tried to kill her once and then look soo chill after aerith died like prob he killed her next she gonna found out cloud hiding the black materia

[@RayEros]

My loveless play story theory. So i have come up with some new theories based of the loveless play. I will mention some quotes of the play and break down my interpritation of how i think it relates to the game story. All is theory nothing is facts unless the devs state otherwise. Or as Assasins Creed would put it " nothing is true, everything is permitted". So lets start with the first quote. " I sensed you was in trouble, twas the will of the godess prehaps." We know Aerith aids Tifa in the life stream to help with Clouds shadow work during the mideel event. Similar she might guide Cloud with the aid of Tifa as Aerith might not be present there. " The goddess must have seen fit to granted him a sliver of her strength." If you see when cloud does his limit break with aerith, his blade glows blue and pink similar in advent children it glows blue and pink when he beats sephiroth with limit break. This is because its aerith aiding him with her strength. "...The memories of those he left behind that gave him strength of will to persevere." This is most likely talking about zack and aerith and biggs and wedge and all those that helped Cloud and had a strong bond with him. But more so zack and aerith. They both aid him in the battle against sephiroth. In his conciouseness also. "Love is naught but an illusion" this is a quote something similar to what sephiroth would say to cloud. Such as his emotions not being real but an illusion. Similar he might try to convince cloud the love he has for Tifa and his freinds its not real but an illusion. "Godess above let my blade strike true." Again just like his fireworks synergy attack aerith being the goddess aids clouds blade in directing the attack. So from all this i beleive Aerith is the one to guide and help discover the real Cloud, we know tifa was there but she is more like what sephiroth is to jenova. A sort of vassal for aerith to help Cloud just as Rosa was guided by the goddess to help Alphried. Clouds love for Tifa is what causes weakness to Sephiroth as the emotion of love outweighs any negative emotion that there is and Sephiroth thrives of negative emotions so he needs to cut the ties or positive ties Cloud has which usually all come out through Tifa and his freinds. What confuses me though is the ending of loveless. Which i have diffrent interpretations of. It could either mean Cloud would return to his real world to Tifa and everyone or it could mean he is returning back from the lifestream to them or it could be something else entirely such as Cloud dieing and returning to the life stream which i pray to god its not. Thats as far as i got with my Loveless theory. Keep rising peace🔥💯 note: did you notice when Zack was fighting Reborn sephiroth and they use synergy attack Cloud comes to aid in a spirit form, will aerith aid in battles in part 3 in a similar way? Who knows. Also dont mind my grammer or spelling. I feel like a broken record for having to mention this all the time but i have dyslexia.