Final Report on 3 Loss-of-Control Inflight Accidents- Not What You Think!

Final Report on 3 Loss-of-Control Inflight Accidents- Not What You Think!
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FlyWire is about exploring flight and the freedom this incredible experience brings us on a personal level. Flying has always captured the imagination and excitement of living life to its fullest. Hi, I'm Scott Perdue. In a former life I flew the F-4 and F-15E, more recently I retired from a major airline. I've written for several aviation magazines over the years, was a consultant for RAND, the USAF, Navy, NASA as well as few others, wrote a military thriller- 'Pale Moon Rising' (still on Kindle). But mostly I like flying, or teaching flying. Some of the most fun I had was with Tom Gresham on a TV show called 'Wings to Adventure". We flew lots of different airplanes all over the country. Now with FlyWire I want to showcase the fun in flying, share the joy and freedom of flight and explore the world with you. Make sure you subscribe if you want to go along for the ride!
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[@tomswift3835]

Coronary artery disease grounded me at 42. First heart attack occurred with no warning whatsoever (fortunately when I was flying my desk at home, so not on the road or in the air). All the usual medical factors put me in the low-risk category - decent cholesterol numbers, no weight problem, no family history, blah blah. But it happened anyway. Sometimes there's just no way to tell. But it's not clear that 75% blockage would be enough to do it. Humans have a lot of excess pumping capacity. Half my heart is now useless scar tissue but I can still function normally - climb stairs, do some amateur boxing, etc - as long as I don't do anything really silly like try to run marathons.

[@ShonMardani]

I also lost my medical as a result of heart attack (RCA blockage), later I found out that it was a fake diagnosis and fake stent and all the blockages are fake. Providence Saint John hospital in Santa Monica is denying that I was taken there by 911 ambulance and are saying that the stent is dissolved and that I had heart disease for many years under their care.

[@michaelmcgovern8110]

I like your stuff, and I like your style. Thanks for helping me learn so much.

[@mattbowers3541]

"I'm sure we can find someone to fly with you". One of my pet speeches. Pilots can fly forever. They just need a safety pilot with them. Find a friend, a newer pilot building time, or an instructor. Pay for everything (lunch) and there should be no shortage of safety pilots to fly with.

[@maryl923]

Thank you for taking the time to share this type of info. Though it's tragic to lose people in crashes, it would be even sadder if we didn't learn from their mistakes. I appreciate your insights.

[@alistairplank4996]

I agree with your sentiment, I feel this guy is suitably respectful , non judgmental. I come here to learn and remind myself the flip side of experience (12,000 hrs ) is complacency !

[@finnboru7977]

I worked as ground crew for Island Airways for two years, flew on Juliet Alpha many times. It is an 11 to 13 min flight from KCVX to 6Y8. Minimum fuel was 25 gal/side, typical 35 gal/side. Burn is 15 gal/hrs per engine. Thanks for the coverage.

[@randylaw3368]

I used to live in northern Washington and I took my private and Commercial training in Canada on 172s. They require spin training. I have about a thousand hours in type and I can tell you of all the 172s I've flown almost were impossible to put into a spin unless you did it deliberately. Recovery was traditional power off full opposite rudder, pull out of the dive, power on. I think this is another example for stall spin training in the US.

[@leifvejby8023]

We had a 172 locally, that needed more than full right rydder to keep it from stalling left wing first, hard. As I told my instructor, it might be a bad idea to spin it.

[@colinmccune569]

Put 4 people and high nose up with cruise power setting and it will spin very nicely and quickly . Of course in training we can’t do spins in the above conditions but even pulling full aft on the controls , add full power and simultaneously full rudder , especially left rudder . It will spin .

[@colinmccune569]

Put 4 people and high nose up with cruise power setting and it will spin very nicely and quickly . Of course in training we can’t do spins in the above conditions but even pulling full aft on the controls , add full power and simultaneously full rudder , especially left rudder . It will spin .

[@colinmccune569]

Put 4 people and high nose up with cruise power setting and it will spin very nicely and quickly . Of course in training we can’t do spins in the above conditions but even pulling full aft on the controls , add full power and simultaneously full rudder , especially left rudder . It will spin .

[@jimmydulin928]

Good report Scott. Loss of control on short final is difficult to understand with pilots experienced enough to want to keep flying until in ground effect.

[@MalcolmRuthven]

Re the #1 report, the Islander. An experienced pilot looking to an outside viewer like no one was flying the plane (I think that's what Scott said). Also, all pilots (I was taught this very early) know that if you slow the plane below its best glide speed, you descend at a steeper angle. To me, that all screams medical incapacity.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

That is a definite possibility. There wasn’t anything in the autopsy, so I couldn’t go there.

[@TheBeingReal]

@@MalcolmRuthven or tired.

[@MalcolmRuthven]

@@TheBeingReal A "tired" experienced pilot shouldn't make those basic mistakes.

[@robdevaney6518]

Great video Scott thank you from the UK. Happy New year 🎉

[@tomstarros3189]

thank you for your respectful way of your opinion......

[@AlyssaM_InfoSec]

I know Welke airport. The crazy thing is that he crashed that close to the airport. There's a few hundred feet of clear open space leading up to the threshold of 35 that he easily could have used. My guess is that he was maybe on a left downwind and had to try to make a power off 180 after losing power. It's the only thing that would make any sense.

[@igorschmidt8599]

I think the last lady is indicative of what's wrong with the FAA's medical procedures. Taking away a pilots medical when they seek treatment for mental health conditions will not only lead to many not even seeking help, but the process of getting their medical back can be extremely stressful and may lead to cardiovascular issues. Rather, they should not take the medical away as long as the treating physician thinks the patient is fit to fly, and if not, just suspend it until the treating physician thinks their patient can go back in the air. There shouldn't be any hoops to jump through. I believe that this should be done in that way even for first class medicals!

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

That sounds good to me.

[@garyprince7309]

Good video Scott. I always enjoy and learn from your analysis. Thank you.

[@dboss7239]

Sober, rational and informative as your presentations usually are. The last one, I would agree there is a likelihood she either lost consciousness and the left hand initiated a bank, or the pain of some kind of infarction caused an involuntary muscle contraction. The behavior of the plane plus the finding of serious blockage in that artery - it adds up.

[@cherylgoodwin4798]

Thanks Scott. Great to see you back 😊

[@adriaba790]

Sertraline, an antidepressant drug , has a known side effect of raising bad ldl cholesterol levels and contributing to plaque build up in arteries if taken for prolongued periods. Sometimes there are few symptoms, and heart screening is not so common in a 32 year old 😢

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Wow, I did not know that!

[@bernieschiff5919]

Yes, side effects of drugs can vary among patients and are sometimes not fully documented. My doctor was surprised by symptoms I was having from a drug that was somewhat new. Another possibility here is a partial stroke event or paralysis on the left side that came on slowly or not noticed by the pilot. That might explain the relaxation and dropping of the left arm.

[@mojah1]

Thanks for sharing,as always very interesting Happy new year ✈️

[@charleshaggard4341]

The accident at Kenedy airport was really tragic, of course they all are, but her passenger was her young son. Thanks for reviewing these.

[@wicked1172]

Excellent safety debrief, thank you.

[@gracelandone]

So I suppose the question about the twin is what’s the ratio of bodies to resources for the NTSB? 4 dead, you get one guy from when he gets there until dark? Doesn’t tap the tanks? Stays over at the Budget Inn, has breakfast and departs. How is that supposed to help avoidance of future safety.’? As in NTSafetyBoard. Ridiculous. As for the last one, as a quad bypass survivor at 39, yeah, I say you gotta listen to your body. At least for me there were multiple indicators I ignored. Fortunately I wasn’t flying when it got serious. Sad for this young pilot’s loss.

[@FranssensM]

I’ve seen you on Juan Brownes channel. Glad to find this. Thanks from the UK

[@CaptainReverendo]

Great video. Other than to feather props, gear and flaps up, and be right on best glide speed, there is definitely no way to extend glide further. Better to fly into the crash under some control.

[@rundlet172]

One has to wonder what the investigators were doing to come up with their findings. Since the NTSB obviously can't be bothered, I'm glad that you're taking the time to make sense of these incidents. Your analyses make a lot of sense. The 172, though, sure looked like an intentional spin (why else maneuver on entry that way?) with several botched recoveries. The young woman's likely medical impairment was probably the only one of these events that couldn't be easily prevented by proper technique and judgment. That amount of arterial plaque is very unusual in someone so young, was probably asymptomatic, and wouldn't have been found in routine screening at her age. A tragedy, nonetheless.

[@charlesfaure1189]

When you underfund an agency, you get what you pay for.

[@Ropestco]

If you look up the data at The Aviation Herald, a lot of incapacitations under pilots (and others)occured worldwide between 2021 and 2023.......

[@abbert1955]

Thou shalt ever be mindful of thine AIRSPEED, lest the ground rise up to smite thee!

[@reyesben]

Great reviews of the analysis. Agree completely with the islander review. Sounds like an attempt to stretch the glide. So sad.

[@KellySmith4145]

Excellent video, as usual !!!

[@flyonbyya]

Great work Scott! In addition to utilizing their typical investigatory tools and techniques. I wonder why accident investigators don’t also utilize a comprehensive checklist and build their report on that. If they had, the BIG open questions you highlighted remaining would not be open. Q. Aren’t their detailed standard operating practices & procedures they’re required to follow?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Apparently not. I’ve been advocating for a checklist for several years. Had one in the USAF, although I never did an initial.

[@FranksMSFlightSimulator]

Great safety analysis/advice without click bait rubbish. Cheers.

[@LTVoyager]

NTSB is woefully inadequate as an investigation agency for smaller general aviation accidents. I suspect they have an A team, but I also suspect that team only goes to the large airplane crashes or if Kobe Bryant or similar was in the crash.

[@joefin5900]

My family and I flew on a BN Islander in Costa Rica in 2004. Uneventful and enjoyable..

[@bennyF52]

Great channel. I just stumbled on it and subscribed. It would be helpful for us non-pilots if you briefly explained how the pilot should have attempted to recover in the 2nd scenario. From the channels I have seen, it’s full right rudder during a typical stall but it sounds like you are saying that’s not what this plane was experiencing..

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

I’ve got a lot of videos that work through stall and spin recovery. Rudder is use to counter yaw… the direction is opposite the yaw. Thanks for watching!

[@Dilley_G45]

Thanks for another quality video. Flywire - Blanco - Dan Gryder - Mentour the four prime Aviation accident channels

[@davidrussell7013]

Pity to lessen the tone by including the self promoting loud mouthed bully Gryder- maybe Hoover & AOPA instead?

[@Dilley_G45]

@davidrussell7013 I watched only 2 of Hoover he seems OK. What's wrong with Gryder? Excellent investigative skills look at the Jet Crash of that weight loss pastors and her ex-Tarzan husband. That was way beyond aviation and he nailed it. And others. Noone is a bully just because he is a bit more direct and abrasive. We are too used to p.c. and censorship and everyone being overly sensitive. Bring back old school investigative journalism. Give Gryder some credit. Musician, pilot, crash expert, his initiative for general.aviation to improve safety, his support of animals, and that list isn't exhaustive. He calls the ntsb out and others and he has a point. But you just focus on the abrasive nature. That's a bit narrow minded imo

[@brandonvereyken4869]

To all of you aging pilots (excluding those who are getting younger,) a message about fitness. Pilots get what SHOULD be a huge high from flying. They SHOULD get another huge high every day from exercise. If you don't, you're just going to end like this one. DO NOT search for a high anywhere else, at least not a nonnatural one. I am 64. I have never seen a doctor and I can do anything I ever could. Get yourself two good dumbbells and go to work for at least ten minutes a day. If you achieve huffing and puffing then you are stimulating the heart, the circulatory system and the lungs to get bigger, stronger, and biologically younger. If you are sore the next day and experience muscle growth over time, which you will, then you are stimulating bone density, muscle mass, and your immune system. Get older or get stronger. There is NO third option. NOBODY DOES NOT HAVE 10 MINUTES A DAY. Do NOT wait for yourself to get inspired the "go to the gym," because you never will. If you have trouble with body weight, count your bites at meals and decrease by one at each meal, each day. In a month you will be eating half as much food and you will never miss it, and you can stop buying bigger T-shirts.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

I totally agree Brandon!

[@flashcar60]

Every pilot --especially instructors -- should take ten hours' aerobatic instruction. When you start to roll over in a spin, don't move the ailerons; just use rudder. Trying to correct a spin entry with opposite aileron is a pro-spin action.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Great comment!

[@noyfub]

Good stuff. Thanks.

[@wimudge]

Wel done Gunny.

[@sambowz9077]

I lived in Palau ( On Peleliu) in the 1990's Ponce and Paradise air, flew in and out everyday but Wed. Ponce crashed the Islander they had, killing all on board a couple of years after I left.

[@johnb7490]

I always learn something

[@nightwaves3203]

Letting a student make mistakes then correcting doesn't end well sometimes. Some private pilots think slips and emergency descents involves holding in cross controls all the time. You get to see those guys in the news. I'm not teaching now but my twin emergency descent is nose on horizon, extreme bank and pitch for safe airspeed.

[@johnb7490]

Great job Scott

[@joakimlindblom8256]

Excellent analysis. For the first accident, I don't understand why the NTSB investigation did not report whether there was fuel in the tanks, particularly given that the fuel tanks were not breached, since this is a critical piece of the puzzle. For the second accident, NTSB seems to have mischaracterized the spin as a spiraling decent. My question is the following: is this type of lackluster investigation and reporting by the NTSB typical or outliers? Is there a recourse for re-opening or re-evaluating an NTSB investigation and final report when it appears to be deficient?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

All to often the low profile GA accidents don't receive too much in the way of resources. Additionally, NTSB investigators are not always pilots or come from the aviation industry.

[@joakimlindblom8256]

@@FlyWirescottperdue That's unfortunate that the NTSB doesn't have the resources/personnel to properly investigate all fatal GA accidents. All the more reason why thoughtful aviation channels such as yours provide an invaluable service by digging deeper to find the true causes and getting the word out on important learning experiences and best practices. I wonder if anyone has thought about creating some sort of registry or wiki where additional accident findings could be collected as a supplement/enhancement to NTSB final reports?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

@@joakimlindblom8256 Not that I know of, but it sounds like a good idea.

[@MarionBlair]

Why make a steep spiral to the landing zone? Why not stay at best glide with more time (and altitude) to setup your pattern?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Good point.

[@Saml01]

A lot easier to undershoot trying to fly a normal pattern. The goal is to preserve as much altitude as possible and that's where spiral descent comes in handy.

[@bryanodriscoll2123]

I flew Islanders for a couple of years and found them to be very good in cross wind conditions. I find it hard to understand how the pilot lost control and stalled at that stage of the flight.

[@Ryanboy2020]

Scott, I don't know about you, but I am really starting to question whether or not the NTSB has the right kind of people investigating GA accidents? I am always finding GA accident reports that have several errors or the probable cause is flat out wrong as in one of the accidents you covered in this video. Is there anything that can be done or is GA accident analysis just never going to get the attention it deserves from the feds?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

The prognosis is not good.

[@charlesfaure1189]

Try funding it properly. You get what you pay for. Also, GA accidents are overwhelmingly the result of bad airmanship, pilots making the same bad decisions others have made for generations, or simply not being good at flying. One more accident report isn't going to have much of an effect if the previous 1000 didn't. There are piles of GA accident reports that will teach you how to end up in a hole in the ground. The FAA is more interested in aircraft quality issues, procedures, ATC effectiveness, systemic stuff that can cause an actually competent pilot to go down--that and keeping US airlines profitable. Bad piloting isn't something that the NTSB can fix in a GA environment that doesn't want effective culling of the incompetent. Know what prevents accidents? Regulation.

[@Ryanboy2020]

@charlesfaure1189 Yah your right. I guess a 545 million dollar budget isnt enough. We should throw more money at the problem. Your obviously not a pilot and you should stick to opinions on subjects you are more closely aligned, like underwater basket weaving or how to make uniformed and uneducated opinions on YT.

[@alistairplank4996]

@@Ryanboy2020 Money is not the problem , Government is big on management short on leadership (IMHO) . NTSB has notably declined in recently. It's still up to us to stay safe!

[@JonathanMBardsley]

Can warm air rising not extend flight? I have heard that your body tells you something is wrong before a heart attack because you feel a overwhelming sense of doom

[@TomP-nw4wu]

Indeed.

[@MistaSkilla692]

It is still insane to me how spin recovery training isn't standard in the US like it is in Canada. Even at a PPL level I can't imagine teaching so much as slow flight without being familiar with spin recovery procedure. Especially in such a balanced plane like a 172, the thing does not want to spin, you really have to crank the thing in and keep yaw in intentionally for a spin to develop.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Agreed!

[@iwaswrongabouteveryhthing]

Have a great '25

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

You as well!

[@TheChad138]

How is the NTSB allowed to give reports that are incomplete?

[@mykofreder1682]

The last one you wonder how much time at that altitude you end up in an unrecoverable situation, I look at a map in a car for a second and I better not be in traffic. You look at a phone or tablet for a few seconds, take a hand off the wheel, it could easily be distraction for a pilot with low experience and not cautious enough at low altitudes.

[@gawebm]

The 2nd accident is another case of the NTSB not doing its job to learn from, and educate pilots after each accident. That is supposed to be an integral part of their charter. But as another KZbinr frequently points out, they just don't do it except in rare cases.

[@charlesfaure1189]

First, the agency is underfunded. Badly. You get what you pay for. Second, there is nothing in that second accident that is at all new. There are reams of investigations to look at that will tell you how not to fly an airplane. New ones merely repeat the old ones. What the NTSB worries about more is whether there is some defect in the airplane that might be a problem for the type, whether there is something wrong with procedures, the ATC system, etc. The truth is, bad piloting is not something one more, or a thousand more, accident reports are going to fix. Pilots crash airplanes in the same old ways, over and over. There's no shortage of example cases to browse.

[@TerribleFire]

Would love to see someone cover N4698W

[@LTVoyager]

That looks like either a vertical aileron roll or a spin. The radius was near zero which is not indicative of a steep spiral.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Airspeed did not increase very much… not a vertical aileron roll.

[@LTVoyager]

@ Spin then. Definitely not a steep spiral.

[@blackhawkorg]

Young?! A cardiac venous vascular spasm can cause a blackout. Much more dangerous than residual thc. She lost consciousness. 75% blockage isn't a trivial amount. Rest in Peace, all

[@cjs6070]

Do you think it kind of amazing that the 172 wings held together during the pilot's futile attempt to recover?

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Airplanes are surprisingly strong.

[@davidtrindle6473]

In 50% of fatal heart attacks there was no previous symptom.

[@ShonMardani]

You need to display the NTSB reports.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Could you Elaborate?

[@ShonMardani]

@@FlyWirescottperdue : I was wondering if the blockage of the artery was on the official report. Also referring to the official documents will give you legitimacy and reduce the misunderstandings. Thank you for your work to make the video.

[@johnfitzpatrick2469]

G,day Scott from Sydney Australia. What caused the stall speed and "pitch up" in N866JA with full flaps and major deformation to the cockpit only on impact. Like a kids paper aeroplane? 🌏🇦🇺

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

It looks to me as if the pilot was attempting to extend the glide.

[@reddog-ex4dx]

Hey Scott. THC stays in the system for a long time. It can take 30 days until it is undetectable depending on usage. The body stores it in the fat. Just because the CFI tested positive doesn't mean they were under the influence.

[@charlesfaure1189]

CFI should never be using it, ever.

[@Coughtry]

Sounds more like a spin

[@Kenjh71]

In short, NTSB getting it wrong time after time.

[@charlesfaure1189]

GA accidents due to poor piloting or undetected/unreported health issues aren't the top priority. The GA lobby is against effective regulation, which would start with mandated training on a continuing basis and a culling of the incompetent or uncooperative. The FAA is more concerned with stuff they can actually regulate, like, for instance, aircraft manufacturing defects and construction standards. If you want safety, don't cry about government interference with your hobby. There's a reason airline accidents are as infrequent as they are, and it isn't publishing accident reports that have no measurable effect on the statistics. It's heavy, heavy regulation.

[@pumpkindog1]

7 advertisements in 15 minutes. good video but the detraction is unbearable.

[@TeemarkConvair]

BN-2 close to gross and only 4 passengers?

[@leifvejby8023]

Passengers come in many sizes these days, and might even have luggage with them. It is a design from the 60s.

[@bobcfi1306]

NTSB does not. Seem to be doing a good job on these investigations (sic).

[@charlesfaure1189]

If it's not the airplane or the ATC system, stuff like that, they don't really care. Why should they? Bad pilots aren't something they can fix, or the thousands of reports already in their books would have solved the problem. If you don't want 'interference' in General Aviation, stop complaining about shoddy GA investigations. The huge majority of pilot error crashes are merely repeats of previous accidents that have been investigated one after another after another... The honor system doesn't work. It doesn't work anywhere. You want freedom from regulation, this is what you get.

[@trickedouttech321]

THC get out of here. lmao.

[@blpblp-tj7ux]

garbage

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks for the pithy observation.