7 Fan Theories That Were Debunked By The Developers

[@FinalFantasyUnion]

Get a browser that’s literally better at everything: operagx.gg/FinalFantasyUnion4

[@unclefred3128]

I can't support a browser that forces a download through malicious pop-up ads, I'm afraid......

[@swilliams21231]

Rinoa’s face becoming distorted as Squall’s mind gets fragmented during the time compression doesn’t make sense to me as proof that he was dead the whole time. It becomes apparent towards the end of the game that Squall’s fear was that he would be forgotten/forget his friends and be left all alone again. So her face was just the manifestation of those fears as his memories began to fragment.

[@kamikaze82]

I think the reason why so many people have glommed onto this one is that there is so much in that game that isn't explained very well at all. It seems even the developers don't have a solid idea on what everything meant.

[@Vanity0666]

Squall isn't dead the whole time but he is dying the whole time. He dies at the end. Time is all fucked up though, meaning he exists outside of time where there is no concept of past present and future, and they are all experienced at once endlessly through his memory constantly reconstructing scenes. The same exact thing happens to the party at the end of FF7R, they break time and go to the same place at the end of time that Squall goes to in the cutscene, and in Rebirth they're trying to figure out how to get back home.

[@therealianco51]

Silent Hill 2 the GOAT!!

[@ProLaytonxPhoenix]

​@Vanity0666 Whatever you're smoking, I'll buy an once of it!

[@michaelseabrooks9286]

Well obviously it was debunked but i think youre missing the idea that ppls brains fire off in crazy ways that resemble deep dreaming when they are dying before the brain shuts down. If the theory had been true then there was never any time compression to begin with, his head made it all up and the weird abstract hellscape/purgatory would either be his mind struggling to cope with catharsis vs inconsistency of reality trying to find relief before his brain gave out, or the brain simply just taking a shit because it was times up, time to shut it down for god. If the theory was correct. Trying to reconcile it against the events that had transpired from a logical perspective wouldnt make any other sense outside his brains shutting down and its not keeping up the dream.

[@baronagony4767]

Squall being dead never made sense to me. After all by that point in the game the party had already gone back in time twice so nothing after that point was more fantastical

[@gorimbaud]

it always felt to me like someone just didnt want to engage with ffviii and came up with the laziest explanation for why they didn't understand it. like how people keep saying NORG comes out of nowhere, despite being mentioned in the school computer at the beginning of the game and the shumi tribe being just a normal part of the world.

[@kjh4496]

@@gorimbaudA lot of FF fans love to convince themselves their bad fanficions are canon.

[@Roboshi2007]

@@gorimbaud also before the end of discone you'd met the brothers summon and a real ghost

[@gorimbaud]

@@Roboshi2007 not to mention the real life witches. it's like they're surprised a game called final fantasy has fantasy elements.

[@KasumiRINA]

@@gorimbaud I like how one of major complaints is "GF memory loss is out of nowhere", despite LITERALLY being the second line you access on your computer when you gain control of Squall in the classroom. And teacher actually tells you to check the homework, and just... ignoring it... and then complaining you don't know things written in said homework is just ridiculous. I legit seen people complain that learning that is optional as if game forcing exposition was ever a good thing.

[@Warz456]

I am actually replaying ff7 right now due to the release of Rebirth coming and just wanted to point out that the Highwind is docked in Junon for most of, if not, the entire game until the party…um…borrows it. I walked past it MANY times in Junon with Aerith in my party. The picture of her in front of it presents no issues at all to me..

[@WombatMan64]

That exact thought occurred to me when he said it shouldn't have happened. There's the scene when you come up to the airport the first time and it does the big show off of the highwind, but you don't get to collect it at that point. This is prior to crossing the sea. Coupled with the image clearly has line markings on the tarmac that look straight out of the airport.

[@baconatorrodriguez4651]

At worst, it's just promo art. Chrono Trigger's damn cover has a character casting a spell they don't do in the game, FFS.

[@reloadpsi]

​@@baconatorrodriguez4651Marle casting fire? Yep :P

[@princeapoopoo5787]

Yeah exactly. Like I get why people would think that artwork is odd, because the Highwind doesn't play a role until later on in the game, but it wouldn't surprise me if the art was created independently of story direction or if the Highwind intended to have a role in the story earlier on.

[@regulator18E]

Yea she even mentions seeing it on the boat to Costa del sol after leaving junon and it's a date night response (she asks if you think she'll ever get a chance to ride on it). Very weird thing to say shouldn't be narratively possible

[@moonwolfv671]

Keeping in mind that Edea was possessed by Ultimecia but still seemed aware of the fact, I always think that Edea recognised Squall and made an attempt to gain control in the moment the icicle was fired. She'd attempt to blunt the effect so Squall wouldn't be killed.

[@fattiger6957]

I think, if the theory was true, Ultimecia's mind and memories would be so warped by centuries in grief that she doesn't even remember Squall. She still has the desire to achieve time compression, but has forgotten why she ever wanted it in the first place.

[@Jester_Jean]

I just think she hit him in the shoulder on purpose so he could be taken in for questioning

[@Rorujin]

Since the next we see of Squall is him being interrogated about SeeD, it's clear that Squall was just rendered unconscious (and being the de facto leader of the assassination party against Edea, it was a necessity) in order to properly questioned.

[@Gigamokin]

or better yet, in this universe an attack like that woulnd't kill, it just causes 5000 damage and after a phoenix down you're fine.

[@valor1omega]

I never understood how people could believe it hit him anywhere but the shoulder. Just fire up a KZbin channel that shows the fmv and it clearly shows it hit the shoulder. I replayed the original game several times on my PS2 that I knew for a fact that it was the shoulder. Only blind or people only with a brainstem couldn't see it.

[@Maedroth]

There is actually a way to bring Aerith back to life that involves a little bit of "time travel". Start a new game.

[@Voltekka15a2]

But then, you'd just be Remake Sephiroth.

[@koumeiseidai]

also a game shark

[@thatonepipsqueak887]

Or play Kingdom Hearts

[@morrigannibairseach1211]

What annoys me is that a writer or something said that if they ever did a remake of FFVIII they'd consider working in the Squall is dead theory rather than Rinoa is Ultimecia theory. The twist of the character died and everything after is just a pointless hallucination/dream is the worst plot twist. At least with the Rinoa is Ultimecia theory it adds something and can be thematically worked with. I really do hope that the Rezero theory that Emilia is Satella pans out. The author has denied it but he's repeatedly said he'll not give honest answers about spoilers. And there's more to than theory than there was for R=U.

[@robertbeste]

Agreed. Rinoa being Ultimecia is FAR more interesting. At least then you have a villain with some actual emotional resonance and relevance to the characters.

[@egateqa1351]

Honestly, if Rinoa accidentally killed Squall, and she grieves so much that she gets in denial by becoming the all powerful Ultimecia, and that her plan was to use time compression as a way to save Squall from dying (Not knowing what time compression does), that way you could combine both theories as well as changing the theories so it could fit into the plot of FFVIII. It would’ve been the best of both worlds. Have the theories fit into the game’s story, while still keeping the game’s plot intact.

[@sabbathb6548]

@@egateqa1351 Would be a nice change where we switch to Rinoa as she goes down that path to become Ultimecia or we play as Squall after she brings him back. Finding out about what happened through him as well as the possible consequences of Rinoa's actions.

[@dbull620]

Another fan theory I've always held in the back of my head is whether Marlene is actually an Ancient in FF7, her ability to sense Aerith's presence in the Lifestream both when it stopped Meteor's descent over Midgar at the end of the original game and again in Advent Children when it purifies the people's Geostigma was never really explained and always struck me as kind of odd especially considering how limited her interaction with Aerith was.

[@Tony_409]

I always chalked it up to children being more in tune with the Lifestream but lose their ability over time because no one trained them to strengthen it

[@lyndsaybrown8471]

Yeah, she seems to have something going on in Remake.

[@belias360]

That's likely more because Aerith is reaching out to them, not Marlene reaching out to Aerith.

[@giovannifitzpatrick1987]

Marlene being an ancient then raises the question of who her mom is. Dyne clearly isn't an ancient, and all of the ancients we see or hear about in game are women, so it would have to be through Marlene's mother, someone we never hear about. Interesting head canon, but it raises many more questions that, if true, wouldn't make sense (namely, if Marlene's mom was an ancient, or even thought to be an ancient, knowing that Shinra was in Corel, why wouldn't they focus on her versus Ifalna, and even if they did, why is there no reports of another ancient who did at the hands of Hojo?) Also, additional info reveals the the Ancients would open up elements of the life stream around different parts of the planet, and one of those areas was Aerith's house and the church, hence the flowers you don't see anywhere else in otherwise desolate Midgar. Since Marlene spent time there, that is likely the connection (as you alluded to). Additional lore also says that the Ancients were parasitized by Jenova, who was able to read their minds and form entities to trick them and then destroy them. Perhaps that parasitism was passed down to Ifalna and then Aerith, and their longer-standing interactions with Marlene allowed her to read Aerith's mind and understand the Lifestream well before anyone else of the group could/did

[@NAzo.]

That's a good point. Why only Marlene and not the other children? Something is up with Marlene or maybe it's an over sight that the other children don;t see things.

[@ansemthetrueseekerofdarkne2730]

Let's just let Squall and Rinoa have their happy ending. Enough protagonists in this series have bittersweet or sad as fuck endings.

[@baconatorrodriguez4651]

Yeah but man-child incel internet randos obsessed with 30 year-old video games are clearly better storytellers.

[@swilliams21231]

That’s really just 10 on. All the games before that (the really good ones) for the most part all had pretty happy endings. But I agree, the ending for 8 was really pretty good. Let’s just let those two be.

[@NAzo.]

Getting to that so called happy ending was not pleasing at all. Those 2 theories work a heck of a lot better then the cringy story in og FF8. It would make FF8 one of the best games with that story. imo they can make that the remake and Rinoa finds a way to make it work and that's where the original FF8 comes in where she gets her happy ending with Squall.

[@NAzo.]

@@swilliams21231 FF6 is not a happy ending. It's bleak and full of destruction but the object of that destruction is gone. It's like rebuilding after a hurricane or tornado or a war has gone thru. FF7 had an uncertain ending until the Advent movie came out assuring that life continued on because we only had that odd ending scene with Nanaki and his kids and it saying 500 years later to go by. The rest were happy endings.

[@omaewamoshindeiru616]

@@NAzo. ff16 wasnt a happy one with Clive reverse tanning on a beach

[@Forever_Zero]

Although most of the time is just the fans overthinking things I think is pretty neat when a story or characters have implications or potential that even the creators didn't even consider

[@Humblemumble7]

Nah

[@lancerguy3667]

It’s frustrating to me that the creator of FF8 liked squall is dead more than Rinoa being Ultimecia… since all “X was dead all along” theories inherently rid their stories of any meaning or stakes for the sake of a shock. While Ultimecia and Griever being Rinoa and Squall would not only solve a few weird plot beats, it would actually make the final villain fit the theme the game was going for.

[@jimmyzeke13]

Ultimecia = Rinoa would turn one of the most forgettable villains in the series into a fascinating and tragic figure, and a potential remake incorporating this could really explore and expand on it. I've always thought the explanation "nah, she's just an evil witch" to be extremely lame.

[@kjh4496]

No it wouldn’t. It literally makes no sense and is impossible. Ultimecia is NOT Rinoa and also she is NOT from another timeline, she is from Squall’s future timeline so it is impossible for her to be Rinoa as Sorceresses live normal lifespans and she was born in that future.

[@martinj3239]

We all know the theory is right, despite what they say.

[@GrayD_Fox]

No he didn’t like it

[@GrayD_Fox]

@@martinj3239cope does not make your baseless theory right

[@VincentSaturn]

Black feathers around Rinoa when she jumps into Squall’s arms. She is Ultimecia

[@sebshifter]

Rinoa being Ultimecia has always been a super appealing theory because it works so much thematically : she becomes a witch, she loses Squall because he dies of old age, the grief makes her lose her mind ( her GF is called GRIEVER for christ's sake ) , she wants to GO BACK IN TIME because she misses her long lost love, it just fits so much. This actual Ultimecia we had was just a witch trying to prevent her own prophesized death, which makes it kinda overkill that she would need to perform a Time Compression to do that.

[@duckswithpeas7865]

Popular theory that got shot down: Vincent Valentine is Sephiroth's father. Theory was supported by the fact that Sephiroth looks nothing like Hojo and that Vincent was literally simping after Sephiroth's mom around the time he was conceived. Replace Vincent's hair with the lush silver locks and you have a Sephiroth lookalike.

[@ProxyDoug]

I do like the idea, but I don't think Vincent had been experimented on before being put on the coffin, so if he was the father, the only significance would be dramatic irony.

[@PetarBladeStrok]

It's worth mentioning that in Remake, they seem to have incorporated that idea, of Shiva being the one who froze Jenova!

[@RobTheSquire]

I quite like the Knights of the Round theory, if I was in charge of the Remake team I might have given the summons a back story. It might link them to the Cetra but make them almost as old as them as if the relationship that the Cetra had with their homeworld gave birth to the summons as they might have been aware of beings like Jenova or were just being prepared for something back coming their way one day.

[@MrGBH]

They did already confirm that the Cetra used Shiva's powerful to freeze Jenova, so they were at least used in the fight

[@SubduedRadical]

@@MrGBH They did? Was this in a side quest or a developer interview or something?

[@jeromedean890]

It was definitely stated at some point that the great glacier was created by Shiva

[@SentaroTheTiger]

If I had a dollar every time I hear theory about "Protagonist is dead" I would be a millionaire right now.

[@Arkholt2]

I don't know much about Yoshinori Kitase, but he just doesn't seem like he would be very fun to talk to at parties

[@Gegarace]

all theories of ffviii means, that ff8 needs a remake and renarating everything from ground up. It can be bigger than ffvii remake. like Laguna Arc, Soilder School Arc, The rogue Arc(being criminal after shot ultimecia, so advangering ruins and shit),SEED Arc, The sky city bs arc. there are so many posibility on 8 that can be made into a super sequal.

[@trevor1645]

Similar to all the apocryphal ways to bring back Aerith in FFVII, I remember a bunch of ridiculously convoluted and difficult methods in the rumor mill about reviving/getting General Leo, Siegfried, and/or Banon to join the party permanently in FFVI and the evidence used to back up all those methods is that there are still one or two (cannot remember the exact number) open spaces for character sprites in the roster screen.

[@Stotfish]

The old SNES cart has two open spaces. One play through I maxed out my money because I thought I might be able to outbid the guy at the auction house for the Imp Robot.

[@Gir-Riff-raffe]

Cloud isn’t cloud. The real cloud dies in the climax of the flashback. And a seph clone who saw the whole thing was inspired by his bravery. So he went on to live in his place out of respect for what he did. And the best part…everyone I’ve ever told this theory to tries to refute it…but it’s too muddied. And they can’t.

[@professorhaystacks6606]

Likely this was a 'catch-all' in case someone found a bug to get them into the party. This happened with summon spaces in one of the games (I forget which): There's one more space than is ever filled in normal playthroughs. Devs have said it was put there so the game wouldn't crash if some unforseen bug allowed 2 normally mutually exclusive summons to be obtained at once, iirc.

[@johndawn6951]

The squall being dead theory never made any sense to me. Like it's a fantasy world why wouldn't weird things happen.

[@Matt-flarestar_]

And the people forget that in every FF in an point of the story, the things go so high, like in ff4 when you literally goes to the moon to defeat a ancient alien being

[@IgnitedQuils]

Plus another rumor (or theory) that was debunked this year was that Basch was originally set as the main character of FFXII but Matsuno debunked that in April. Plus, Vaan was originally worn down and rugged until they redesigned him, and then redesigned him again after his mocap/voice actor came in during 2002 (1 year in FFXII’s development). I can see why people dislike him but he is relevant considering he is a direct foul of Ashe, with both their struggles with the past, freedom and family (also he indirectly was an anchor to her from the Occuria’s control), and him bringing the crew together. Plus with how he relates to other characters with their individual struggles like Ashe.

[@fattiger6957]

I can see why people want to believe that. Vaan is the most boring FF protag in the history of the series. He may as well have been a plank of wood and the game wouldn't have been any different.

[@toddclawson3619]

@@fattiger6957 I always thought that his brother (the one we play as in the prologue) would have made for a better main character. He was one of the ones "betrayed" during the rescue attempt giving him a more personal connection to Basch and I liked what little we saw of him in the prologue.

[@aerisgainsborough2141]

and as nice and pretty as penelo was, she was just too damn vanilla...

[@PsychoSavager289]

Even in the early days of FF7, I suspected Aeris' revival was untrue, as everyone had a story about how to do it, none of them matched up, and there was never any direct proof from a more reputable source like a gaming magazine. And as hard as it is to say, I'm glad Aeris stays dead - her death and sacrifice made for a far more impactful story than her resurrection could ever bring.

[@1001digital]

Aeris' death was heartbreaking, I really didn't expect that. When I played the game back then I was also looking for a way to keep her alive. But same as your experience... Different stories, nothing seemed right and the more "realistic" sounding versions seemed to be glitches or bugs, but not intended features or storylines which avoided her death. It definitely was good for the game. I will never forget that.

[@Brkmp_]

@@Patient-957i think thats how jenova arrived on earth

[@drunkdrag0n]

@@Brkmp_ Jenova's back-story isn't exactly clear to most, so I'll explain the key points that are explained or the player is informed about. Jenova arrives on Earth roughly 2000 years prior to the events of Final Fantasy VII, in the Northern Crater Jenova's first infected victim was a woman, hence her lady-like appearance (if messed up) and begins to infect the many Cetra and mutate them Jenova is contained at the Northern Crater, but the planet refuses to heal, as Jenova is causing damage to the flow of the Lifestream The ancient Cetra cannot eliminate Jenova and are nearly completely killed, while the humans they lived with flourished and survived The Shin-Ra corporation find it roughly 30 to 35-ish years prior to the start of Final Fantasy VII The first successful experiment was Sephiroth That's everything that we're told. The rest is from sources I have no clue or knowledge of.

[@GooseGumlizzard]

its AERITH

[@1001digital]

@@GooseGumlizzard I'm from Germany, she is called Aeris in our localization. I hope you don't mind if I stick with that :)

[@demonkingt]

18:00 she literally helped get on the elevator before the march section during your first time going through the area plus you can revisit the area multiple times with the highwind waiting there. There are multiple times it would make sense to have the concept art.

[@Zafire063]

In Dissidia, Ultimecia says "Let's dance" to Squall, and uses Rinoa's weapon. Pretty sure the people over at SE like this theory now. It would fill in so many blanks in the story, and make so much sense at the same time. I feel as if the directer who commented on it being false came back later and said something about it maybe being the intent of the other writers, but I can't find it now, maybe I was hallucinating.

[@egateqa1351]

Oh you’re definitely not hallucinating, because I know exactly what you’re talking about. kzbin.info/www/bejne/oWnEpIaHpNeGpMkfeature=shared Weirdly, KZbin keeps removing my replies for some reason. Still, it’s surprising that the Triple Fs (Final Fantasy Fans) keep forgetting that Yoshinori Kitase later changed his mind on the Rinoa = Ultimecia theory.

[@Kmmlc]

Or it could be that she knows how connected he was and uses it as a weapon against him even if he doesn't remember it.

[@ShockwaveFPSStudios]

Yeah, you’re right on that one. Kitase later said that maybe Ultimecia being Rinoa was Nomura & Nojima’s idea, since they also wrote FFVIII. And since the Dissidia games tends to reference Rinoa through Ultimecia’s attacks, it’s likely her being Ultimecia isn’t a theory per se, but more of an implication. It’s why I prefer the Ultimecia Theory than the Squall is Dead theory because it might be implied, while the Leon’s dead theory makes less sense.

[@akuokami1677]

Those darn ruins 😂 I loved and hated it so much because if noctis would just stop trying to roll after every jump but the satisfaction of walking out with all the rare items in tow after 6 hours was always worth it 😂

[@Yokai_Yuri]

Actually is was worth it. First, it was a different content from what we usually are presented. Then, once you were deep in, it felt like a real deep cave, like lonely and isolated. It was amazing

[@lindthechaoticheretic8708]

I'm still convinced that most of the post launch story for FF15 was taken from fan theories.

[@georgehouliaras7239]

Ultimecia not being Rinoa is exactly what Chaos would want you to think. Don't trust him!

[@promethiac2641]

I agree... if they didn't want that to be a thread to pull they would have dialed back the "time compression" gibberish lol

[@the5th2000]

💯

[@eyesonbee]

Rinoa as Ultimecia is just such a fun theory and adds to the chaos that is the end sequence of the game. I've always been glad he backpedaled on it because it baffled me to completely deny it when there are quite a few things that signal that someone writing it considered it an option.

[@reiddutchess9955]

Real theory: Kain was never hypnotized, he was just in love with Rosa and went along with what Golbez intended to do so that he could justify his actions.

[@wolfmech]

I still say that Stranger of Paradise gives off the vib of being a person inside one of those Renaissance fairs.

[@anthonydelfino6171]

The same rumors about reviving Aeris also circulated about Leo the game before, which made me skeptical of all of them and just accepted that she was gone Though also being a longer veteran having also played IV, character deaths weren’t anything new to me. And it’s so cynical but I recall at the time my first thought being “I hope I didn’t just lose all her materia”

[@KasumiRINA]

FFIV does SO many fake-outs, only like one party member actually has a proper passing? Now thinking of it, FF7 does a bunch too, it has ONE character death that's final and tons near-death or actual die-but-return moments for others.

[@anthonydelfino6171]

@@KasumiRINA for sure, lots of fake out deaths, but when you have the Tellah is dead for real, Leo is dead for real, and at least my first play of VI, Shadow and Cid were dead as well as being used to party members permanently leaving the group even without dying, it just didn't hit me the same as others.

[@KasumiRINA]

@@anthonydelfino6171 yeah, I am used to Bioware RPGs and half of BG1 party is dead at the start of 2. And your mentor right after TUTORIAL.

[@mekobaby101]

I'm never going to subscribe to the ''Squall is Dead'' theory. A lot of people say it makes sense because the story got weird after disc 2 and started going off the rails, but stuff was weird at the start of the game! Summons, the whole ''Tomb of the Unknown King'' quest, going back in time with Laguna and company, Gerogero the president's body double, ect. Him being dead just seems like a cheap cop out.

[@ultimablackmage]

I honestly never heard any of these outside of reviving Aerith & potentially replacing her if you collect all the mini soldiers in the game to trade for a robot that had all of her limit breaks.

[@bahamutbbob]

I've always, ALWAYS, thought that the art of Aerith by the Highwind was when the party followed Cloud up to the top of Junon.

[@masterxl97]

I personally choose to believe in the “Ultimecia is Rinoa” theory despite what anyone says, if only because that’s the only idea that makes Ultimecia a remotely interesting character.

[@sneaks9975]

Squall can't be dead, and Rinoa be Ultimecia at the same time. These fan theories conflict with each other.

[@wSeeDw]

I would trade revived Tidus for Aerith.

[@asuna07neros]

Making Rinoa as Ultimecia would have been a great idea story-wise. If they ever consider remaking FF8 (which I think they should), I hope they would incorporate that idea. Also, Squall being dead is a load of BS. Dude got impaled through the shoulder, which isn't that lethal (compare that to Cloud getting stabbed by Sephiroth which is a lot more fatal but still survived)

[@Yokai_Yuri]

Clouf got stabbed in a non-lethal part of his body. Plus Cloud had main character plot armor, since he had not Jenova cells infused in him at that moment of the story. So, he was a regular human

[@EmyrTyrn]

Man, nearly all of Squall's center mass was icicle lol

[@GrayD_Fox]

Such a bad idea

[@vsolyomi]

FFVIII: has plot which is more like a pipe dream Someone of the internet: Is it actually a pipe dream?

[@Archetype_Angel]

It's been so long since I played the OG PS1 FF7, but Aerith's death back then left such a huge scar on me that to this day it still has a grip on my heart. . Even after all this years it summoned a grief and sadness out of nowhere when I saw this video's cutscenes. . I... I don't know if I could bear to see her die again on the ps5 remake.

[@JoelBurger]

Ultimecia being a future Rinoa not only doesn't make sense with the information the game provides, it's also the ultimate example of "I'm a teenager and I think this is deep". Just completely spits in the face of the themes and messages of the game, of adolescents learning to cherish their childhood because it is fleeting and to step forward into the future, because some kids in the early 2000s thought weightless and random tragedy is cool.

[@dixievaldes]

waoo como se nota que eras el raro del barrió 😂😂

[@Bravest_Epoch]

Sorry but I disagree. IMO, the U=R theory is amazing because 1- it fills some plot holes, 2- it elevates both Ultimecia and Rinoa as characters and gives them depth, 3- it makes the game’s story more tragic as Squall seals a version of his gf’s fate. I know it’s not canon, but I still enjoy it

[@NemesisSP]

The game is not meant to be a tragedy. That's why the theory fails. It's trying to turn the game into something it isn't and thus fails to miss the point. If you like it, good, but saying it improves the game by adding tragic elements that were never intended is missing the point of what the story actually is about.

[@Bravest_Epoch]

@@NemesisSP what’s the point of FFVIII story to you? Because to me, the game hammers “enjoy love while you can” With that idea, knowing that Rinoa is fated to lose her mind and become Squall’s enemy is aligned perfectly with my interpretation of FFVIII story.

[@theopeneyes]

I've always seen the similarities between Ultimecia and Rinoa as them being mirrors of each other and wasn't meant to be deeper than that. Their designs and colours are mirrors of each other, extravagant and sensual red and black vs simple and conservative blue and white. Their personalities and goals are mirrored, Rinoa wanting to free people from tyranny vs Ultimecia becoming the ultimate tyrant. The ultimate difference between them being that Rinoa has people who love her, Ultimecia doesn't or possibly never had anyone to love her.

[@dionysusmclaren12]

12:35 in my opinion Gilgamesh should have been "The Stranger of Paradise". Could have been SE take for making a KH series for their IPs.😮

[@deathseraph3]

Oh my God that would be amazing.

[@UndertakerU2ber]

Or how about this? A Square Enix rep has a chat with a Dreamworks rep on an escalator and they decide to create a new IP called "Empire Souls" that serves as a marriage between Dreamworks' animated films and the Dragon Quest series. Journey through the Kingdom of Duloc and Far Far Away with Shrek and Donkey, the jungles and savannahs of Madagascar, a chicken farm in the countryside of Yorkshire, the seven seas with the adventurer Sinbad, the Valley of Peace in Ancient China with Po the Dragon Warrior, and so much more! :D

[@levitate1264]

Regarding the Rinoa = Ultimecia theory, Ultimecia is from many generations in the future but I don't recall any dialogue in the game that confirms or suggests that sorceress's have longer life spans.

[@TiduLimar]

Since Kitase kind of retracted his debunk, I will continue to believe in the Ultemicia theory. Especially with Nomura on the script. Griever is a huge factor. It fits so much in several narrative themes. The ending would be a perfect full cycle..or even a loop.

[@valor1omega]

Grasping at any thing to keep such a stupid theory alive eh? Let it go.

[@morrigannibairseach1211]

Care to elaborate on the retraction and about Nomura? I know nothing of this but am still upset that Kitase had said he'd consider the Squall is dead theory before Rinoa as Ultimecia in a remake.

[@RyuNoZero]

Yeah I honestly believe that the Rinoa = Ultimecia Theory is true but I also think that the less SE talks about it the better, let there be hints. I won't wanna play an FF8 Remake where you play as Rinoa becoming Ultimecia just to fight your own party basicly

[@natediaz1863]

Rinoa being Ultimecia would actually be really awesome and could even tragically explain that she could not recognize Squall because her use of guardian force destroyed all but the vaguest memory of him. And her whole plan of time compression was to see him again but it had been so long and her memory so messed up that she didn't even recognize him when he was right in front of her and attacks him and the party for daring to come between her and a love she knows exists somewhere in time.

[@JeebleyJim]

A) Why would Rinoa need to use GFs at all if she's a sorceress? B) Why would she need be in a position to use them after the Timber Liberation team killed Ultimecia?

[@natediaz1863]

@@JeebleyJim a) she used Griever didn't she? Can Sorceresses not use GF? b) and you could make up any reason for why she'd be using them. It's a time travel story so you could also do multidimensions too. Maybe in the original timeliness ultimecia isn't the main villain, Adel is.

[@JeebleyJim]

@natediaz1863 it's a closed loop story. It's made explicit that things can't be changed using Ellone's style of time travel. If there is a "true" villain it would be Hyne, who's nature is already embodied by Ultimecia possessing sorceresses across time to make her compressed reality

[@JeebleyJim]

@natediaz1863 also Ultimecia doesn't use Griever in any conventional sense, she junctions herself TO it after you beat it the first time

[@botanbutton]

@@JeebleyJim The more I read people's explanations for Rinoa=Ulti, the more I wonder....did they play the same game as me?

[@FalloutJack]

So...there were *other* theories about Final Fantasy 7 that I heard back in the day, even tried to make happen. They were both about gaining characters who REPLACE Aerith after her death. The first one is the Sephiroth theory. Confused? You should be, but it goes something like this... Go into the Battle Arena, and then fight until you can earn a Masamune blade. From there, if you visit a certain location at the right time - it was eithe the church, the Shinra mansion, the Nibelheim reactor, or some other haunt of Sephiroth - a version of Sephiroth would appear and join your team, claiming either to be the original version before he went made, or a clone produced by the cultists who does not approve of the original's work. The second theory was even stranger. Go to the Battle Arena and win ONE HUNDRED scale models of a machine called a Super Sweeper, which could only be an upgraded version of the Custom Sweeper never seen before in gameplay. Then, go to Junon where the hallway leading to the submarine base is and set off the alarm there on purpose. The real Super Sweeper should come to you and - for some reason - join your party. No, I don't know how that really works. There were still yet more, but I don't remember them properly.

[@ToliBera]

My Fan Theory: Squall and Rinoa are half siblings. Laguna did hook up with Julia in the hotel room (as is common during war times) and Rinoa is older than squall and looks like Laguna.

[@brianhaught7929]

I personally would love a ff8 and ff9 remake. Final fantasy 7, 8, 9 imo the best

[@Draezik]

I got an item for Aerith long after she died, I think it was a limit materia.

[@ProxyDoug]

Same, did that on my first playthrough.

[@MrSTVR]

The other sorceresses don't have angel wings, but Rinoa and Ultimecia do. That's one of the bigger reasons I support the theory.

[@commenter6763]

FFVIII I think Ultimecia is related to Hyne in some way. It would fit the concept of having to fight a god like in typical Final Fantasy fashion, not just some random regular sorceress from the future with no backstory. You name Griever after the Edea fight and Griever splits off from the top portion of Ultimecia during the final boss battle and runs away, just like the lore states Hyne did back when the humans cornered Hyne eons before. The half Hyne gave to the humans had weak magic. Ultimecia is looking for Ellone, who mind-warped Squall to go back to the past, but whose magic wasn't strong enough (weak magic) to change the past. Ellone has no explanation for why she has her powers, and she's not a sorceress. She is the "empty shell," or Squall is actually the empty shell, either on his own or by proxy of Ellone's mind-meld. When you talk to the old man NPC in Balamb, he hints (paraphrasing) to the fact that the other half of Hyne might be looking directly at [the people Squall's facing]. Why would the NPC do that? "Hmmm." I could also work it as it is Hyne the entire time trying to put zes whole piece back together, or Ultimecia is a normal sorceress who was able to figure it all out and try to capture the full power of Hyne, which is why she needed Ellone to do the time compression. But with no backstory to Ultimecia and barely any about Hyne, and with a game full of way too much subtly that lends itself to endless questions, I can also conclude that FFVIII simply was poorly written, and time spent on theories about its lore are never going to be accurate. The big thing that wouldn't fit is that Ultimecia is still required per the sorceress code to go back and transfer her powers to another sorceress - in this case Edea - before she dies, so that doesn't eliminate Hyne's existence. Every time I think about replaying FFVIII for a deep dive, I tell myself it's just me trolling myself because a lot of the plot makes no sense, and maybe it's really true the the end boss is just some throwaway boss with no real purpose other than being the badie at the end.

[@Jester_Jean]

I like to think that the Time Compression is Hyne's plan and he manipulates Ultimecia to execute it in an effort to get rid of all of his "tools" at once, so only he exists in the end. Ultimecia's last phase is actually Hyne with Ultimecia (the lower part) junctioned to him.

[@commenter6763]

@Jester_Jean Yeah, that fits the "possession" angle that sorceressess were given the power to have by Hyne in the first place. It would be him wiping out his tools as you say, putting him back into the original position before humans multiplied in numbers large enough to supplant him. But if we say Hyne was defeated, why does Ultimecia have to go back into the past and transfer her powers to Edea, if we say that sorceress powers dissapear because Hyne would truly be dead? Edea said she was visited twice by sorceressess, once when she was little and later due to Ultimecia as an adult. So we could say the OG one was the real deal and the second one was Ultimecia trying to alter the past. But if the past WAS altered by defeating Ultimecia in the future..*ugh*...it can go on and on. Can really get a headache trying to figure out this plot, because it's probably much simpler, it's just that the story is just poorly written.

[@Jester_Jean]

@@commenter6763 truly. As much as I love it I can see the poor writing and some of it is due cut content also, or so I've heard. This game would benefit the most from a remake I'd say

[@commenter6763]

@Jester_Jean Cut content. That's likely true, too. I played it for the first time just a few weeks ago. Saw some KZbin comments (so unverified) that they needed room for the ending credit FMV, so they cut out access to all of the towns. Man, if they just had another year or two to polish things up and maybe go with six discs. They wouldn't have space issues in today's time. Pretty ambitious project, and I still really liked the game. I'd love to see a remake where they could tell the full story that they really wanted to tell if not for deadlines and space issues.

[@seandobbins2231]

One interesting thing that I think is worth noting regarding Kitase saying "we wanted to really take another look at that, look at human life, and [make people] realize they don't come back." The way he says it it sounds like they thought this was some new direction, but literally the last three FF games included such things. Tellah dies in IV (against the main antagonist for most of the game no less), Galuf dies in V, and general Leo dies in VI (as well as Cid most of the time). Hell, the theme of loss is incredibly prevalent in general in VI that it dwarfs Aerith's death by comparison. That doesn't mean that her death wasn't impactful, of course.

[@MasterFhyl]

Rinoa *not* being Ultimecia, actively makes FF8 significantly worse than it would otherwise be.

[@jettblade]

I heard way back when the game first came out that Aeris could be revived by a hidden cave in the Corel Valley, this is the area near the City of the Ancients. There looks like there could be a climbable vine and cave entrance in the upper right corner of the map that could have been used for something. If there was no way to revive legitimately her then I theorize that cave could have been used to recover Kujata if missed or an original idea for its location but was scrapped.

[@kokosmite5816]

Since I played the remake of ff7 up until this day I'm thinking Knights of the round on the remake on how will it look like

[@Yokai_Yuri]

Probably like FF14 which is the most epic representation of the summons.

[@Tigerfire75]

Aerith's death didn't phase me much. She was never really a favorite character of mine.

[@rickydargence5948]

I was very fond of the idea that Cloud and Rufus were half brothers (As in, president Shinra is Cloud's dad) because they have a cool opposite themes going on (One poor, one rich, one wears dark the other wears white, one fights with ranged weapons while the other is Melee, etc...) but I think it was debunked recently as well , it was some random guy that went to explore the mountains and never came back IIRC.

[@robertbeste]

Here is my new theory I think has merrit: Jenova is one of Meteon's sisters. Meteion's sisters, also created by Hermes in Elpis, traveled to other worlds 1000s of years ago. The sisters reported back that each world had fallen to ruin or dystopia for some reason or another. It's not a stretch of the imagine these sister then became "calamities from the sky" (as Jenova is called). Meteion, having gone mad, vowed to destroy all life on Eorzea seeing that as the inevitable destiny of all things anyway. Perhaps she then sent a message to her sisters to do the same to the worlds they found. This would also be consistent with other beings from Amaraut's time that seemed to go mad after 1000s of years of immortality like Emit Selch, Elidibus, and Lahabrea. In FF7, Jenova also seems to infuse a different type of power than mako. Soldiers infused with Jenova cells gain entirely different traits - often involving rapid evolution and the ability to transcend one's own boundaries. It could very well be that Mako = Aether... and Jenova cells = Dynamis. Further evidence for this is the reunion. In FFXIV, after Elpis/Amaurat was sundered, it was possible to rejoin the fractured realm. Even BEINGS from amaurat's time could have their sundered portions rejoined as each calamity occurred. Similarly, the reunion could seek to reunite all of Jenova into one Ascian like being again. Sephiroth and Cloud were so powerful because, like the Warrior of Light in FFXIV, they were partially rejoined. This could explain why Sephiroth wants to take "mother" with him, though still seems to have enough will to remain separate.

[@ScaerieTale]

I liked the FF8 theory because, TBH the alternative was "bad writing". I mean there's a scene where they all suddenly remember they were orphans together, except for one guy who apparently knew all along and never said anything... Yeah. Anyway, my favorite Aerith theory is actually the one where Cloud actually kileld Aerith by drowning her, that she wasn't actually dead yet

[@pinklyfingerer4081]

Ppl that say squall is dead must have never beaten the game

[@LuriTV]

my personal theory is (Spoiler for FFXIV up until Patch 5.3) that: Novrand is what is left of the world in Final Fantasy 1 about 1000yrs in the future. I got some reasons for it. The map of Novrand resembles the southern east part of the map in many ways like significant landmarks as Mt. Gulg, the crescent lake (Lakeland), the Lykion desert (expanding to Ahm Araeng due to centuries of draught) and it fits the narrative, that about 90% of the planet is engulfed in light. Elidibus taking the form and role of an ancient hero of the First called the Warrior of Light and in his Trial form he literally became the protagonist of FF1. And most blatantly the name "The First". I know the reflections are named numerical but if could also refer to the very first world in Final Fantasy history 😄

[@bobbyboy_]

Im shocked the "ffx is a prequel to the ff7 world" wasnt there

[@ChristophBrinkmann]

Just goes to show how stupid that theory is.

[@pedroluisroman1263]

No surprise that No.1 would be Aerith's Death... I wonder what the end of Rebirth will bring....

[@rayd6400]

I want to belive rhinoa and Ultimacia is the same person so bad. IT MAKES SENSE. And gives so much more color to the game.

[@Shiftarus]

Headcanon is more important than canon, and even the "canon" on this issue seems ambiguous. Even if the devs abandoned the thought early ... I don't see why people seem so desperate to disprove the theory. Its not like it ruins anything for people who think its not true.

[@jahithber1430]

I support this theory too

[@Vaquix000]

@@Shiftarus I mean, headcanon is basically just fanfiction though. May as well make your own games and stories at that point. That being said, pretty sad that fans had to make up stuff to make FF8's story interesting - their theories were the only things that made Ultimecia an interesting character. Now she's just hot powerful witch, that's it.

[@sabrakt]

I'll debunk the "Ultimecia is Rinoa and it makes sense" statement in one question: Why does Ultimecia, who's in control of Edea and then Adel during the game, try to kill Rinoa several times if they are the same person?

[@DC-FGC]

I was maybe 14 or 15 when I first played Final Fantasy 6 to completion. I didn't have internet access yet, and didn't need anyone to encourage me to believe that Gogo was Daryl. It's been so long, and I couldn't tell you what specifically made me think it, but I really did think all this time that Gogo and Daryl were the same person. Didn't need anyone to encourage me or give me the idea either.

[@eternalepoch3134]

I remember the Rinoa = Ultimcia discussions on Gamefaqs waaaay back in the day. That got intense. Those Aerith revive theories back in the geocity days brings back memories too. The dawn of the internet.

[@Kmmlc]

Aerith's death was a twist done right. It hurt if you didn't know it was coming already. You liked her as your healer, often were rooting for her and Cloud to boink, and even got to go on that date. Then suddenly this character we invested our time into was just killed, permanently. No hint it was going to happen.

[@eternalepoch3134]

@@Kmmlc I'm glad i was able to live through that moment spoiler free.

[@evilanagram]

First time I've heard the TRPG term "theorycrafting" (meaning coming up with builds that are untested in actual play) to mean "coming up with a fan theory"

[@jukka-pekkamakinen1815]

Rinoa=Ultimecia: also if you would live longer than your friends, you would become sadden by time since you would lose your loved ones many times. That would make one bitter and maybe wanting to halt flow of the time.

[@6Kubik]

I like the theory that Clouds father was not just some guy but actually president shinra Senior. This would make Cloud and Rufus brothers. Since Rufus has several half siblings because his dad was a hoe, it would be very funny.

[@ChristophBrinkmann]

That's so hilariously wrong. The devs would have mentioned that

[@soultpp]

I have always hated the Squall is Dead theory a lot. From the moment I first learned it existed it made absolutely no sense to me. I usually have a very strongly negative initial reaction to many fan theories partly because this one revolted me so much. If they did end up making it canon in a remake it would absolutely ruin the game for me. The Rinoa=Ultimecia theory also didn't really make any sense to me either, but it didn't evoke any particular emotions other than my usual distain for fan theories.

[@SnoopyKendall]

I love the fan theory that FF10 and FF7 are actually the same planet just at VERY different times in the lifespan of the planet.

[@Kingnothing7x]

I came to that conclusion the first time I finished x-2, I assumed shinra discovered the lifestream in that moment they arrived at, what was it, the center of the planet?

[@oddoverhere]

I'd love to see them get into that in the 7R series. I can see it being a great way to go in expanding the story. (Pretty sure that it was confirmed at that same one where the Rinoa/Ultimecia theory was denied.)

[@bireland2012]

My theory is that the people of Spira’s technology developed rapidly as a result of Sin no longer being around and ended up ruining the planet as a result and used interstellar travel to find a new planet.

[@oddoverhere]

@@bireland2012 Kind of what I was thinking. And clearly the two planets are similar. But it'll be interesting to see how long ago that was, how it affected the Cetra, and if some of the protagonists of 10 are ancestors of the protagonists of 7.

[@ChristophBrinkmann]

Too bad they're not

[@ziegfeld4131]

In FF7 remake it talks about summons being ancient beings

[@RoseWaltz]

bringing Aerith back to life defeats and cheapens the purpose of her death - she knew she would die but went anyways

[@MegaManDBZX]

Well SoP FFO is and isn’t an Isekai.

[@Auron1Roxas2]

Any theory about the main character being dead always seemed lazy and ridiculous, glad that theory was shot down.

[@Edowin-jz2sj]

I love both FFVII and FFVIII, in part because of how different they are from one another. I think in a lot of ways, FFVIII was meant to be a brighter, more positive game to contrast to FFVII's darker tones. However, I think a lot of people wanted FFVIII to have some darker more tragic element to it in order for these games to be more similar in tone, therefore, the "Squall is dead" theory developed. Additionally, Ultimecia was a strange and underdeveloped surprise mystery villain compared to the highly anticipated personal antagonist that was Sephiroth, and so the "Rinoa is Ultimecia" theory attempted to add depth and complexity to an otherwise one-dimensional villain. If they ever do a remake of FFVIII, I would so hope that they provide a little more substance or backstory to Ultimecia's character somehow.

[@DibsEquipped]

Shall we dance?

[@menorasendaiba6404]

"But that is a very interesting idea, so if we ever do make a remake of Finall Fantasy (VIII) I might go along with that story in mind." Kitase Yoshinori, 2017 Well since Whispers/Feelers appeared in FFVIIR, i find myself didn't shocked if Kitase or _especially_ *NOMURA* involved the fan theory become true (a.k.a. officially make fanon into canon)

[@kof3017]

"The protagonist is dead" is such a cliché that I don't even consider these.

[@Ejohns1004]

I haven't watched yet but if the title of the vid is actually the premise then I don't understand the point of the video. I'll watch it, no worries but if this is just to dunk on or list fan theories that were debunked like the title says then why? Why not fan theories that were confirmed? I'm not trying to be hostile or anything here but I read that title and immediately think "Of course the devs will debunk fan theories that weren't in the game proper. That only makes sense." I've never, not once heard a dev say out loud that they weren't able to make their vision come to reality under the umbrella of Square or SquareEnix. Not anyone who still wants to work there. The only person I can remember that has said this was Tetsuya Takahashi and he said it as he was walking out the door. Can we get a 'Fan theories that were confirmed' vid next? EDIT: I do appreciate that you guys don't just make fun of these theories. You treated one of my favorites, 'Squall is Dead' with seriousness.

[@SelphieTheNutter]

The theory that Rinoa is Ultimacia is all dependent on the theory that Squall died. Since that was debunked, it's safe to say that theory got debunked with it. Besides, there's 1 huge flaw in that theor, and that's the final battle against Ultimacia. If Riboa was Ultimacia and her goal was to reunite with Squall, then she would never have attacked the party. Also, as Edea said prior to the final battle sequence Ultimacia goal was to create a world where only she can exist.combine this with the story of the sorceress Knight and it is in game debunking of that theory.the story of the sorceress knight says that all the good sorceress have a knight and never turn evil because of them. Edea had Cid, Rinoa had Squall, both of which were hood people. Edele and Ultimacia, on the other hand, never fell in love or had anyone fall in love with them. Hence why they turned evil and became obsessed with their own power. Considering the fact that Ultimacia is from the future its safe to say the resemblance between her and Rinoa is more likely down to being related rather than her actually being Rinoa, The games future has a Prophecy of a legendary SeeD from the past whos destined to destroy Ultimacia i think its safe to say if Ultimacia was Rinoa, they'd remember his name.

[@crassweller11]

The machines not being wholly evil in the Matrix is explored in the animatrix

[@dominicdunn2579]

Ive been watching a lot of Maxamililondude a lot lately and he keeps theorizong KoTR as Cetra and i dont have the heart to tell him :(

[@protodad1]

The biggest problem with Aerith that fueled the theory is that you usually got her final limit break after she died. On top of that you never naturally get her limit breaks high enough without major grinding.

[@tuckernutter]

Eh my headcanon is that Ultimecia is an *ALTERNATE TIMELINE* future version of Rinoah. It just makes more sense for me and she feels less left field when shes mentioned.

[@MortonGoldthwait]

Id' love an FF VII mod where you do the Disc 1 level 99 thing, but Aerith dies and Pac and Biggie emerge from the lifestream to join your party.

[@nicholashayes5773]

Ultemecia is Julia, Rinoa's mother. That's what I think. I always think about that scene where she's playing the piano and she and Laguna talk for the first time, and I always wonder: WHy go out of their way to make such a detailed, drawn-out scene for a character that is never shown or brought up again, unless she has something to do with the grand scheme of things? Plus, she wears the red dress like Julia.

[@gorimbaud]

i was going to say "come on, everyone knows that gogo is adlai stevenson" but one of your graphics did reference that joke theory

[@TheCmurley131]

I've never understood how the Gogo theory floated around for as long as it did. He's literally a character from FFV that traveled across dimensions. That said, back before the internet was prevalent I used to believe that Gogo was Gestahl, surviving and seeking his revenge but masked because the party would never let him join otherwise. Both inaccurate theories are better than the reality, unfortunately.

[@Consequencesarts]

i'll always have R=U as my head canon because it makes an otherwise boring antagonist mean something. If they do remake it, they should lean into it. it's awesome.

[@ChristophBrinkmann]

So they need to make a better antagonist. Without stupid fan theories.

[@dinotech3416]

It’s not really a theory, but I know there’s a lot of confusion behind who killed aerith... the argument is that it was jenova rather than sephiroth.. people have tried to explain it to me but there to many mixed thoughts on it. Any good explanations out there?

[@sabrakt]

It is Jenova. She's the one the party runs after during most of the game, while Sephiroth is stuck in cristalized mako in the Northern Crater. That's why every time the party manages to corner Sephiroth, you end up fighting Jenova. Jenova, however, is more or less controlled by Sephiroth, so... In a way, it's still Sephiroth who killed Aerith.

[@dinotech3416]

@@sabrakt I like your description. I think people say because jenova is like a symbiot that they share the same will which is an okay argument but doesn’t really solve much… also wait wait! Does that mean hojos experiment really was to have sephiroth control jenova ( to make it simple in my head because i know there were many other reasons for the experiments.)

[@ChristophBrinkmann]

Mass Effect has two. Indoctrination Theory, and the idea that the SPIN OFF Mass Effect Andromeda is somehow a full sequel. Sorry, kiddos. Next game is already confirmed as Mass Effect FOUR. A spinoff is not a sequel.

[@LordSpleach]

No theory that Sephiroth is just a new adapted persona of Jenova?

[@d18p]

Rinoa is just a vessel for Ultimecia, as Rufus is for Odin VP2 Silmeria

[@TheCatsofVanRaptor]

Why do you have to break my heart with eyes on me playing

[@M_Alexander]

And now the remake will probably allow Aerith to survive or revive

[@Noriyatsu]

The most awesome fan theory that ive read among the years is definitely that gogo is adlai stevenson... Which is been debunked but still awesome non the less

[@korsaiyajinkami3766]

I'd love to see an opposite to this video if there are enough theories verified true by the developers for such a video to be possible.