Is there such thing as a Manic Pixie Dream Boy?

[@FinalGirlStudios]

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[@trinaq]

If the Manic Pixie is male, he usually gets more focus, and is typically the main protagonist. However, his female counterpart isn't as fleshed out, since she rarely shares her own hopes and dreams. The bulk of her screentime is spent helping her stuffy love interest to embrace life.

[@FinalGirlStudios]

Agreed completely!

[@adoresessy101]

How are you everywhere in the comments for all the video essays I watch!!! lol! 😅

[@trinaq]

@@adoresessy101 Haha, I just happen to be in the right place at the right time, I suppose! 😉😅

[@absolutelynotellen]

Probably, the Manic Pixie guy would be the second lead/secondary love interest who's love unrequited with the protagonist lmao

[@peebisboons812]

what are some examples of this? i want to seeee

[@katieeckler7543]

The analogy of the red flashlight representing the gaze was such a great way to describe such a nuances and abstract concept. Great job!

[@barbarian-furu]

really appreciate it too

[@joycewible8816]

It was a fantastic analogy!

[@joycewible8816]

It was a fantastic analogy!

[@kybunnii]

That red flashlight analogy is pure genius

[@FinalGirlStudios]

Thank you!! I almost deleted it lol, I’m glad it landed

[@kybunnii]

@FinalGirlStudios I'm sooooo glad you kept it. I was watching this video with my younger niece and she understood. Thank you, especially for making things so clear and easy to grasp for the younger girlies watching your videos too ❤️. Im grateful, no one was making videos like this when I was 15. Keep it up

[@MimisRoom333]

I liked how she talked about the fact that many of girls gravitate to the Manic Pixie Dream girl written characters because it is often the only media we get with somewhat fleshed out female characters. As a girl who’s conventionally attractive I’ve often had guys(especially older ones) see me as some type of sweet, pure yet sexually mature person. I often feel both flattered and disgusted by their compliments. I like the attention as it makes me feel validated and wanted but at the same time I feel objectified and dehumanized. I like the power I get from being attractive as it makes me feel as if I have some control but at the same disempowered by the way I’m not seen for anything else. I almost want to adhere to their gaze and fulfill their fantasy. I feel that I cannot be defined as a person unless it’s through the desire and gaze of others. Pretty privilege does exist and comes with many benefits but at the same time as my body grows old and withers the attention will cease and the part of me that was seen as desirable will no longer be of any value.

[@bubbles4897]

“Because this is often the only media we get with somewhat fleshed out female characters” Um….this ain’t the 90s. There’s a ton of shows and movies with fleashed out female characters.

[@barbarian-furu]

@@bubbles4897 90-00 exacly the time when we where growing up and shaping

[@juujpop]

You’re so real for this

[@transsexual_computer_faery]

the plight of attractive heterosexual cis women is so far removed from my reality.

[@Bamgeutcutiepie]

i never thought of that. but i guess that's true. i always loved manic pixie dream girls. it's only how she is dealt with - just for the bland vanilla boy - that makes it a problem. but the girl herself is awesome.

[@ivysatana]

Depressive Demon Nightmare Man is more my style

[@FinalGirlStudios]

Hahaha me too

[@LadyGreyBlack]

Hamlet?

[@piapetroni5297]

so Buffy's Spike

[@graceartsy4414]

lowkey me with Jareth from the Labyrinth when I was in middle school lmao

[@MelodiaBeatriz]

kkkrying

[@absolutelynotellen]

I actually kinda knew a character who can be called Manic Pixie Dream Guy, and his name is Kuranosuke Koibuchi from Princess Jellyfish ( Kuragehime )! That series has always been my comfort. Why i deemed him as one was because also not just he's dressing up in a colorful outfits and an artsy person. In my interpretation he's the reason why Tsukimi's life turn upside down and even got exposed to the world of fashion where the mentality of "don't judge a book by it's cover" doesn't applicable in the industry since from how i remembered it, Tsukimi is the type of person who imagined it rather than doing it. Also, he was the reason why the whole Amamizukan slowly change their point of view ( even working to earn themselves money! ) of the world ever since he befriended them. Though the 2018 drama has a better take on this series, so i suggested you to watch it instead. ; edited since i forgot some explanations why i called him one.

[@junepassingthrouthegate8810]

Oh my god!! So true!

[@vanishingmoon1]

you’re so right! they were just stuck in life and he did swoop in like a fashion motivational speaker fairy godmother

[@rune2O2O]

YOUR MIND... This is so true

[@Alienaddikt]

Exactly!

[@klaraelisabeth]

Asian male idols are oftentimes a male equivalent too. Several idols I follow are very manic pixie deeam boy like. Zhu Zhengting in China, actor Song Kang in SK, Justin Huang in China. Basically I'd say all idols are more or less modeled to be manic pixie dream boys. That's also why they're so hated when they do normal things like having a sex life. So I'd say the situation is quite similar after all.

[@zwoodarts]

i know ur talking specifically about asian male idols but as i was watching the video I kept thinking of how the persona created for young male celebrities, regardless of where they're from, is often this "manic pixie dream boy" type of person (a guy who's super attractive and nice and respectful who would totally date a fan/normal girl)

[@klaraelisabeth]

That's probably accurate :)

[@mariacastillo4121]

@@zwoodarts reminds me of how they branded Justin Bieber when he was still so young

[@rowanjoy419]

I don't blame authors specially female authors to have their protagonist being a simple girl who end up with their manic pixie dream boy because it feels like it was done as a compensation after all these girl grow up with the tale of "if you are a beautiful girl and virgin, you would have your prince at the end".

[@crab2195]

it’s also refreshing that for once, a female protagonist doesn’t have to be extraordinary to find genuine love. all the male protagonists can simply exist as they are, but the female protagonists have to have some sort of talent or quirk that makes them “not like other girls”. it really sends the message that only exceptional women deserve a happy ending.

[@sarah-bu8yj]

This is also explored in MTV's 'Downtown'. Serena could be considered a manic pixie dream girl because she is 'quirky' and alternative. The stale white wonder bread boy Alex is obsessed with her because she is unlike any other girl he's ever met. In the last episode, the very second Serena stops dressing in the 'alternative' aesthetic, Alex realises that he was not in love with a real girl, but instead a fantasy. Btw, I love all your videos, you're my favourite film analysis account :)

[@fiendishlybilly]

Big love for Serena.

[@rowanjoy419]

The reason why "Manic pixie dream boy" is hard to do or find in a movies is because as you say, is the gaze a big part of what makes a character a manic pixie dream girl. I am going to break down the suggestions for manic pixie dream boys. Jack? from Titanic 1. The first time we see Jack is not though Rose's eye, but just him by himself and his friend when he wins a ticket for the Titanic. The first one to "gaze" is actually Jack when he sees Rose and admires his beauty but also notice that she is rich and would probably never end up with her. Then when Rose is about to jump, Jack convince her not do it, but was because he is just kind? or because he has his eyes on her? 2. Even if is true that Jack ways of seen life inspire Rose to live her best life, that doesn't mean Jack didn't have future plans, he dreamed about america and what he could do to have a better life he had. My own conclusion is that he isn't a manic pixie dream boy Edward? From Twilight *The 1st time we see Edward is throught the eyes of Bella and he tries to be the "hero" archetype at least in the 1st movie. * Bella has not aspirations (maybe because she used to see herself with her mom and once she moved her little world was shatter) neither Edward because he is a vampire, and even thought at the end Bella got what she wanted, Edward make things more complicated, he breaks some of the "manic pixie" rules, from the start he ask Bella not to hang out or be friend because he is not good company, in the 2nd movie he even moves with his whole family leaving Bella depressed, even before the wedding Edward tells Bella he used to kill many humans "criminals" and Bella is just unfaze. What I am trying to say is that movies that feature manic pixie dream girls, the girls never seem to have this level of self-loathing. Haven't read the books but I always assume Bella chooses Edward because she was in love with the idea of being a vampire not just Edward, because if she ends with Jacob, he cannot share this abilities to Bella, she will be human and die; with Edward, Bella could be "special" too. When this movies where critize for having a "plain protagonist" I always feel like I agree but I disagree at the same time, Bella doesn't have a extrovert personality, she lacks confidence but has determination and I even say she didn't care to have a "traditional" life or values, maybe because her parents were split off and she likes risk meanwhile Edward embodies all the traditional values and only accepts to have s*x or make Bella a vampire if she marry him first. I personally think that if it was just movie 1, would fit almost but because there is more Edward doesn't fit the manic pixie dream boy criteria. As you say, the knight and the princess, even though it looks from the outside as if it was the opposite of the manic pixie dream girl and stale white wonderbread boy dynamic, it is not because each of them have the qualities that our society seems as desireable, making the best example of the perfect couple.

[@kidguerrila]

Edward is definitely a Manic Pixie Dream Boy, A lot of the rules you set to stablish the "Manic Pixie Dream character" are too based on a male centric perspective and obviously wouldn't work on a male character since women and men find different things attractive. He doesn't break the rules by not wanting to be with her from the beginning because the "bad boy" persona is considered an attractive thing While a male's fantasy is a girl that immediately gives him attention and is interested in him from the get go, a woman is much more interesting in the "Forbidden love" complicated start kind of story Any fanfiction site you enter will always have those "In love with a criminal" "enemies to lover" stories at the top because that's considered much more attractive for women

[@kidguerrila]

And when you put all of that into perspective, And start to think about how many "Female gaze" type of boxes a character like Edward checks it becomes clear he's a Manic Pixie Dream Boy He is a hundred plus year old vampire with absolutely no aspirations in life that conveniently is still going to school just in time to fall in love for the first time in his life with a boring girl with no real personality that he almost immediately becomes obsessed with (In a quiet and mysterious way off course) and is set to protect with his life. He is barely a character, He is a collage art of cliches set to be the most appealing possible (Which obviously worked the films were a huge success)

[@kidguerrila]

Since this "Manic Pixie Dream Girl" discussion started and was pinned as a mysoginistic male thing (Which really is most of the time) I've always thought like "Wait im pretty sure there are female equivalents of this exact thing out there" And the biggest difference between Manic Pixie Dream Girls and Manic Pixie Dream Boys is simply budget, Hollywood is a male dominated industry That's why MPDGs are everywhere, While MPDBs are only found on Romance Novels and Fanfiction sites, But deep down they're not really different from each other and im sure if there were more women writers out there we'd see them more often

[@rowanjoy419]

@@kidguerrila Ok, I think my opinion is blind because before watching this video about "manic pixie dream whatever" I watch a video explaining how Twilight has a lot to do with mormonism, you can look it up, is a 12 minute video and I was convince. Also (funny story) I went to a catholic school and a teacher use twilight as an example of how movies like this set a bad example for young girls. I was the whole time thinking, did we watch the same movie? in the 1st movie she was 17, by the 4th movie when they have sex, she is 18-19 and she just got married with this guy, is that inappropriate? I think that is the reason why I cannot see Twilight from a female gaze perspective, I have heard many bad opinions from conservative, progressive people, women or men, everybody hate it and everyone has their own reason for- So your opinion is valid but also mine.

[@rowanjoy419]

@@kidguerrila my opinion was affected because previously I watch a video that you can look it up, is 12 minutes = Twilight, Mormonism, and Feminism(ish); 3 Sides of the Same Coin

[@TheModernMuses]

We demand more “Final Girl” clips in all essays moving forward! What a treat to see you implemented into this project in such a beautifully filmed way 😊❤

[@FinalGirlStudios]

Loool i was panicking bc I didn’t know what clips to use for the red flashlight segment so I had to go into my film archives! The footage is unused footage from a short film of mine titled The City of Misfit Souls, glad you liked it ☺️

[@ramenphreak3268]

I dont know if this necessarily fits this video. But alot of K-Drama's are filled with these typical tropes. You have the regular "plain jane", but is really pretty cute, but at the same time, She rides the bus, is clumsy, poor/or poor(ish) (but always seems to have a nice apartment, and has the latest phone of course lol), pedestrian life, and job. While the guy is always some uptight, slick azz son of the C.E.O., Mercedes driving Record/tv/movie executive who looks like a model with the perfect clothes, and hairstyle. She's seen as a regular person, while the guy is seen almost as "otherworldly" due to his looks, and station. She's there to wreck his life, while He's there to save Her's...

[@barbarian-furu]

was looking for the K-media comment. you know, in Korean web-toons creators have more freedom to wright plain jane-s, no TV restrictions to have nice appartment and looks of an actual famost person

[@brigc7755]

I think that stems off of the ''marry a rich'' man trope that is more romanticized in SK while in the West we love our (often poorly written) independent female tropes (not to hate on either trope ofc). Men want to become the rich CEO cool guy and middle-class / poor girls want to find their soft-hearted rich man to bring them into a life of prosperity.

[@rozenn6952]

​@@brigc7755I believe this trope of "marry rich" comes from the strict hierchical dynamic that exist especially in Korea, in a way that doesn't make sense to occidental persons. A lot of Korean fiction is about raising above your status, one way or another. Considering how profoundly mysoginist Korean society is (especially due to the innate oppressive sense of hierarchy), rich guy is the easy/basic way to gain social status for women... (I hope it makes sense, I cannot properly convey Korean values, not being one myself. I just want to underline that there's context clues beyond our average international TV tropes)

[@Yharazayd]

girl i haven't even finished the video yet but i already know you killed this, just wanted to tell you

[@FinalGirlStudios]

Thank you so much omg 😭 I always appreciate your opinion!💖

[@CyraNoavek]

I think that Bella is actually extraordinary. Her ability to NOT be read by Edward is essential to his interest in her and SPOILER blossoms into an amazing power later. Thank you for this amazing breakdown of the MPDG trope. Your analysis has helped me understand the terrifying degree to which male gaze tropes have influenced my life.

[@oxo6839]

What was bellas power?

[@CyraNoavek]

​@@oxo6839What do you remember from reading the novels?

[@oxo6839]

@@CyraNoavek I've only seen the movies.

[@CyraNoavek]

@@oxo6839 I would not want to spoil the novels for you then. Perhaps one day you will read them.

[@fairoadiary]

@@oxo6839she has like a force field power blocking it from other vampire powers harming her or anyone she directs the force field to

[@aliveslice]

21:50 you ate 😂 They always make it a competition _AFTER_ you say something about female experience. Also they do complain, all the time. Just about anything, but usually about your freedom of choice.

[@milaces1323]

It scares me the timing of this video, i was just thinking about this last night!!!!

[@FinalGirlStudios]

Wow we are synchronized haha!

[@IceGoddessRukia]

I watched the previous vid not long ago- thought "Hmmm is there a male equivalent?" And BOOM- on my front page. ashkgasdha I love it.

[@callie9559]

So an example of a manic pixie dream boy I really like is actually from an anime called Edgerunners. You have David (who is the main character) and Lucy (the love interest). There is a top comment explaining how this dynamic usually works out specifically if the manic pixie boy is the MC, but in this case they actually SWITCH roles a lot. At first, Lucy is a femme fatale who tricks David into falling for her by ACTING like a manic pixie dream girl (she rides his hospital gurney out of an ambulance down a highway while laughing maniacally) and after tricking him into trusting her she summons her gang to beat him up. Afterwards, David manages to finesse his way into her gang, and Lucy feels guilty about it but David still likes her. They talk it out, and it turns out that Lucy is actually the depressed, introverted type who wants to stay away from him because she believes she'll hurt him. Obviously, he melts down her defenses with his puppy-like charm and her REAL personality comes through as someone with a tragic past who just wants to be loved. I don't want to spoil on how their relationship ends, but it's just an example of what I think is a good subversion of the manic pixie dream person in general.

[@meghanrodriguez2393]

Preach!

[@Alienaddikt]

Yes!!!!

[@persephonestudy]

Not related to the video, but I just want to say that your content has inspired me to include cinema theory in my thesis. I love your channel! And your videos are just delightful ❤️

[@FinalGirlStudios]

Omg that’s amazing! Thank you so much, appreciate your support 🫶🏻

[@liminalquartz]

Whoof, I think we just need more stories where an idealized love interest turns out to be actually human, either gender. My problem is when the love interest is boring besides being attractive and to be won by the protagonist - movies need to either be commentary on this idealization dynamic or move past it and have well developed characters, esp love interests.

[@stitchedwithcolor]

I would actually argue that none of the examples you give (or at least none of the ones i've seen) would qualify as manic pixie dream boys, because they lack a key feature of those manic pixie dream girls we have seen--the story recognizes them as having clear identities, desires, and lives independent of their heroines. Howl has his own life and his own issues that sophie wanders into; indeed much of her story revolves around fixing his life for him. Edward wraps himself around bella almost from the getgo, yes, but a large portion of the series revolves around managing his problems, not hers. These heroines and their desires may be centered, but the story still drops them headfirst into someone else's world and tasks them with cleaning up others' messes. By contrast, in elizabethtown, drew remains fundamentally incurious about who claire is when she's not with him, and the story never challenges that perspective. She's there to be his muse, not a person in her own right. Any problems or backstory she might have never come up, except to the extent that a quick anecdote might inspire him. Even summer from 500 days of summer wouldn't qualify to me, because while tom is incurious, both summer and the story refuse to bend to his will. For me, the fact that the heroes of these films are kind of unremarkable and unappealing is beside the point; the key factor is the way that the male protagonist can fall in love with a girl without bothering to find out much about her, as well as the way that the story supports that perspective by never challenging us to recognize her as a person in her own right. The fact that society routinely centers the desires and lives of men, even in stories told from a non-male perspective, makes manic pixie dream boys so rare as to be virtually nonexistent. The only example i've ever seen of a manic pixie dream boy was an utterly forgettable made-for-tv film with warren christie and brooke burns. A man of unknown origins whose flight has been cancelled is taken in by a harried, grumpy, single mother and her family; revives the ol' christmas spirit in them; and ends up staying on as a long term romantic partner. It's not a good film, i wouldn't bother with it, but his complete lack of visible identity separate from the heroine does qualify him as a manic pixie dream boy, to my mind.

[@kattodoggo3868]

Hi, i know its old but i was about to same the same. Its non existent because it demands of the "boy" to be 1st. the sideline character only to be there for a "girl" to have a character development (how often it happens? for a woman to be put over a man }. In most cases these men have their own personality and life . Its like oxymoron, manic pixie boy lol👀

[@gabriellearrowood3210]

I am SO. SORRY. You got so much flack for your MPDG essay - I thought it was brilliant, and alas, I had a feeling that would happen to you because of that. UUUUUUGH. In general, I discovered you a couple days ago and have watched almost your whole library already - your analyses are nuanced, unabashed, well-explained, and backed up by both the source material itself (i.e. a given movie, examples of an idea from shows and film, etc.) and academic resources. I can honestly say, as a woman who has never been considered conventionally attractive, you've helped me revamp my thoughts on women's bodies to have a lot more empathy for other women "prettier" than myself. Thank you for that. And as far as "response" videos go, this is exactly what a response video should be - rational, researched, and focused on the actual topic at hand, not falling victim to straw-man arguments and the like. Well done! I think the "self-insert" aspect of the Wonder Bread Boy thing is particularly frustrating. One of those criticisms of 'Twilight' was Bella's self-insert-ness itself, the implication being that silly girls just want to live a life of fantasy and don't care about reality, that any woman or girl that enjoyed the franchise was too vapid and shallow herself to be of any value. You don't see that kind of criticism of male self-insert characters, ever. We all have heard the term "Mary Sue" before (even if its true meaning has been obscured, much in the way of the MPDG), but there isn't a set male equivalent, and there's a reason for that. Sure, those male self-inserts may be called bland by official critics, but you never see any criticism of the *people that enjoy them* because they're meant for men. By their nature, self-insert characters for women are automatically going to be scrutinized, and their fans criticized and belittled in the process.

[@FinalGirlStudios]

Firstly thank you so much!! I really appreciate your kind words a lot. 😭 And the way I was thinking about writing an essay on the Mary-Sue trope criticism and why I despise it ah!! I remember when I first heard of that trope going on long monologue-esque rants to my boyfriend and all of my roommates about it haha. A large reason why it frustrates me is what you describe, it singles out female characters for something men have done FAR longer in fiction.

[@gabriellearrowood3210]

@@FinalGirlStudios EEEE SENPAI NOTICED ME!😆 Ahem. I'd love to see a full video about the Mary Sue trope from you! There really is so much to say about it, and I too have Lots of Thoughts(TM) of my own, haha. I'm wildly curious about those rants you went on before!

[@adobecult]

the fact that so many people from your last video immediately jumped to the defense of the male characters in these dynamics……. yikes lol. amazing pair of essays as always, love your channel!

[@FinalGirlStudios]

I had a feeling that was going to happen to be honest haha. I’m glad you enjoyed thanks for watching 🥰

[@blackest_manamultis]

Respectfully, is that how you summarize the arguments people are making? As a simple "defense of the male characters in these dynamics?" There's more color than that. I'm glad you brought this up, because it brings into sharp relief the major problem with the flashlight analogy. The presumption of the metaphor is that the man shines the flashlight gaze on the woman, but that once she steps out of his light, she enters something like an objective reality where everybody sees her for who she really is. This is just not true. Everybody has a "flashlight." Everybody uses "flashlights" to perceive reality. When other people see you, you are being perceived through their flashlights. There's no way around them. For sure, you can modify, add nuance to flashlights. Bad flashlights can and should be critiqued. I don't think anybody is offering a full-throated defense of the virtues of seeing someone through a limiting gaze*. You'd have to visit ol' brother Nietzsche for that. The deeper point is that everybody does this. Just because it's between a boy and a girl doesn't mean that it's a gendered dynamic. The fundamentals are based in human cognition. If you think you're not running a flashlight, you can be sure yours is running full blast. I'm talking hiiiigh beam 100k lumen type stuff. Here's an example using the new Stale White Wonderbread Boy flashlight. It's fair to ask: is that the best, most accurate light in which to view these characters? Are they stale? Orlando Bloom's character in Elizabethtown starts the movie leading the design of a groundbreaking product. He takes on the hopes of his entire company. He has the sort of status that makes him conventionally attractive, as indicated by the fawning gaze of Jessica Biel. That and plus, he's Legolas. Take Garden State. The main character's morose exterior masks his own zany, heightened perspective. It makes sense as he's an aspiring creative (a struggling actor). Tom in 500 Days is probably more interesting than Summer. Tom writes very witty, very touching greeting cards. He launches into a gigantic dance sequence. Summer, on the other hand, is an office assistant (by the way, this is just the sort of perspective a non-idealizing gaze might take). To reprise: stale, white, and wonderbread is a category that exists only in the mind. Each of them as individuals have more color than that. I'm not trying to convince anybody that these characters as exciting as Twilight. If it's not your cup of tea, it's not your cup of tea. Go #TeamEdward. I'm trying to say that they're also being seen through a limiting flashlight. Quite simply, if you're looking for patriarchy, patriarchy is exactly what you'll find. There's an appeal to ideologies like this. When you learn them, you start to see the patterns everywhere. It's amazing. People think of it as freeing your mind, Matrix-style. In actual, horrifying fact, that freeing feeling is your worldview shrinking. I'm not saying it's a useless flashlight, but it can't be your only one. The real trick is figuring out which flashlight to use at the appropriate time. *I am tempted to write a defense of a limiting gaze. Quick example: think of the fingerboard on a violin. Four white lines over a black wooden field. You have no idea what you're supposed to do with it UNTIL limits are placed. Tape is laid down to indicate the first three positions. Now when the sheet of paper in front of you tells you to play a C#, you know just where to place your fingers. Are you being artificially limited to the chromatic scale? Absolutely. And you're free to go ahead and play your microtones. Most likely, though, you'll want to play Fur Elise in C major.

[@FinalGirlStudios]

@@blackest_manamultis I am not suggesting that outside of the red flashlight we step into an objective reality. The flashlight analogy wasn’t intended to be an explanation of all gaze. It was a way to simplify the idea and answer the question that was being asked: how can the gaze of the stale white WonderBread boy or Humbert in Lolita exist in reality though the product of said gaze cannot.

[@pinokosthewife]

It was in defense of one specific boy and he's a CSA victim and that's why he's so quiet and withdrawn. We related to him too.

[@Bizarro69]

I'm hooked on Sad Girls and MPDG in cinema. if only the MPDG were protagonists! as much as they're sidelined in their respective movies, it's quite interesting how they've remained iconic whereas the Wonder Bread Boys of those movies are second thoughts.

[@242sighting]

Was surprised you didn't mention Elf but it totally fits what you said about the Manic Pixie Dream Guy being a mythical creature.

[@angelicaziffer9106]

The flash light explanation is truly great and I will use it from now on. Thanks for this videos! Only one note: I think Howl is a stretch. I would never call Sophie "plain" and she goes on her arc influenced by him but not *because* of him. All the characters surrounding her build her up, herself included. And howl is a deeply flawed character and she sees that Immediately.

[@xoxomariexoxo98]

1000% agree!!

[@lauramichaelson7704]

Loved this so much. You laid out your position so well and put so much into words that I've kinda always had in the back of my mind. Especially how the stale wonder bread boy is allowed to be stagnant. He isn't expected to grow or change his looks or personality in order to be worthy of his dream girl, that's what makes it a fantasy to me and I cannot think of a single example of that in reverse. Even when women are described as average in books, they're always played by super attractive actresses when adapted to the screen. As a below-average looking girl growing up I think I internalized that so much. Thank you so much for this video!

[@rdzu834]

I think being a Neurodivergent queer kid, my “Manic Pixie Dreamboy” was Edward Furlong in the films Brainscan and Before and After. The quirky, shy, reserved dorky personality (literally me fr) Darkly inclined in Brainscan so he was relatable to me. A soft, gentle voice. And his fluffy bangs and those moody, haunted eyes. I always had the first 55 seconds of Goon Squad by Deftones playing in my head whenever I thought about it. And the images of skeleton trees and autumn leaves bathed in a red sky to go with it. My guy never came in the end though. This was all in the mid to late 2010s and even though it’s only years ago the change in culture is dramatic. Of course these character archetypes are flawed, but I honestly wished they were real and more people were like that. I wish I was born in 2007 and not 2000 because of it. From a heterosexual perspective there are glaring flaws in these kinds of characters, but on the queer side of things, people like me wished these kind of guys (at least the positives as biased as that is) replaced the bullies and majority who got to experience and express relationships in their adolescence. I think we’re headed for a more soft, gentle society and though through closer scrutiny we can see not everything is written correctly, it would be nice for there to be more guys who are “weird” and dorky but gentle and kind instead of the guys many of us had to face the judgment and humiliation from. It’s not perfect, but I do think it’s a step in the right direction. The “Manic Pixie Dream Girl” to me is very relatable as a guy because a lot of these characters all have traits that stem from real people who were likely (and likely undiagnosed) Autistic. Same with a lot of the guys. But they are definitely romanticised and imbalanced, because a lot of Neurotypical and Heteronormative motives and traits are placed on them by Neurotypical and Heteronormative writers.

[@RMSLeao]

THE RED FLASHLIGHT METAPHOR IS SO SIMPLE AND COMPLEX AT THE SAME TIME!! keep up the great work!

[@johan8676]

great explanations and arguments. the true female gaze rarely affects how men feel about themselves, but the male gaze can also be projected by women (who have been taught to project the male gaze onto themselves and onto others by all of society around them). the general ideals of what an appealing/attractive man should be, are mostly relating to being on top of the patriarchal white cishet status system, which means holding power to be able to defend oneself from other men, and in extension defending one's belongings and/or family (if the family are considered different than "a belonging"). women may project this gaze and want to be rescued by "prince charming" who is in a position of strength and wealth and status - to defend her (and himself) from other men - disregarding any real traits of his personality or physical features, as long as he fits somewhere into the strong, powerful, rich group (aka has high status - he might not fit every bill, for example may be strong but not rich - but he has to be able to protect himself and her from other men to a relevant degree - it's what matters even if he's not considered conventionally physically attractive). anyway great video👌

[@blackest_manamultis]

"The true female gaze rarely affects how men feel about themselves" I'm curious, where did you get this idea?

[@yeehaw_2987]

@@blackest_manamultisgod came down and told us. (ps: i’ve seen your other comments on this video as well. it seems you’re an absolute loser. get well soon.)

[@mckennajobe2607]

Girl you were spittin BARS in this one!!! Loved your explanation of these complicated and often misunderstood dynamics, especially the point where you described how men don't need to project themselves onto the Edward Cullens of the world because they have so many other characters to choose to emulate! So good can't wait to binge all your content now

[@jedjohnson173]

Yea I think all this just stems from the over romanticizing of relationships whether platonic or romantic. People want to imagine that these cookie cutter ideas and exact expectations will be fulfilled, but the truth is every person is way deeper and more complex than anything that could ever be conveyed through conversation or interaction. The fantasy of other people only exists in the void between everything that makes you, you and them, them. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk and yes men also feel the unrelenting pressure of societal expectations.

[@gamebotpocket]

As a man (maybe, still figuring that out), I feel like I've noticed the impact of the manic pixie dream boy trope in my personal life, or at least something similar to it. It feels like a lot of the people who end up taking an interest in me see me through this skewed, romanticized lens that I can never actually live up to. I've had people tell me I'm "the perfect guy" or compare me favorably to fictional characters. I always feel like I'm pegged as some archetypal sweet, sensitive, socially progressive male love interest, and it ends up causing a lot of issues if I try to enter a relationship with someone who sees me that way. I feel like most guys would kill for the attention I get and I feel guilty for not enjoying it, but most of it feels dehumanizing and like I'm not actually being seen. It gives me a lot of sympathy for women who go through the same thing with the men in their lives who see them as manic pixie dream girls.

[@barbarian-furu]

wellcome to the suffering from success club, but yeah for real quite a shitty environment to be in. when you just want to be you, but all the expectations push you out of yourself and into the character. really felt for you on "I feel guilty for not enjoying it". but as my therapist said, trauma is not what happend is what you felt. not that Im impling that you're traumatised, only that your feelings of discomfort and are totaly valid

[@olived9560]

AAA INCREDBILE VIDEO! your discussion is so nuanced and informative (I feel I learned a lot, especially about gaze, as someone who'd be the subject of it too), and everything is defined so clearly. Analysing everything in the context of gaze provided another perspective on so many of these issues, and everything was considered from various perspectives and fleshed out so well. you have a new subscriber haha

[@RussellJones]

My daughter and I talked about the possibility of manic pixie dream boys, and the best example she came up with was Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Ferris is the manic pixie dream boy for Cameron. Ferris has no arc, he simply exists to give Cameron courage and perspective. Sloan and Cameron even talk about leaving Ferris behind when they go to college. He obviously can't exist in reality, and the lens that Cameron sees him through is what we see, of an impossibly cool, free and brave person, everything that Cameron lacks. There doesn't seem to be a way to switch the gender of the whitebread boring guy without losing the essential elements of the manic pixie dreamgirl, especially the self-insert quality of the whitebread boring guy.

[@luz9719]

The main difference here is gender inequality, basically. We as women don't dehumanize men as often as they do us, both in media and in real life. The awful situation we live in is that women exist to be objects gazed at by men, men exist to give us meaning and validation. Of course, we fight to change this reality but it still is predominant. Even if a woman would try to gaze at a man like that, they already have more power than us in society so it doesn't do much harm.

[@AuraJG]

A movie that in my opinion literally represents this concept(s) is Ruby Sparks, 2012, it goes about a writer that creates this fantasy character, the woman of his dreams that then transforms into a real person

[@Joqqa666]

I freaking love this channel, the editing, your voice, the topics... Such a great content! ❤❤❤

[@typefeisu]

my first thought when I saw the title was Jacob Elordi in Saltburn but I hadn't seen your work yet! now I get it. every video is an absolute banger and a revelation. absolutely screamed when I saw Howl. he's The One. if I can be toxic for a second? men aren't pressured to be like Howl... but they should be. 👀 sheesh ❤

[@katherine2354]

I think calling the male equivalent a Peter Pan makes more sense. He's a kind of fantasy for girls but he's allowed a greater deal of depth than the MPDG is allowed

[@haileymh]

i would definitely watch a video about men performing for the male gaze and ignoring the female gaze, if you decide to make a video like that

[@heysilly1341]

I honestly love your art, cinematography, & analysis 🩷

[@dolfuny]

That commenter talking about people not clamoring to see the story of the knight in shining armor is so funny. He really thought he did something with that comment

[@joycewible8816]

After watching your MPDG essay (great btw!), I started to consider the possibility of my being that for other people. I had never considered it before - definitely gave me things to think about! And the MPDB as the inverse to MPDGs is such an interesting idea too! Love your analyses 😊

[@localocalocaloidic]

great video as always! thank you so much for your hard work

[@somniumlucidus969]

When i watched the first video i immidiately made paralels to the prince charming archetype for men. Aka your stale white wondervread cinderella is attracted to your prince charming who gets no character development apart from how he relates tobthe protagonist as everyrbing shea always wanted. He usually doesnt have a personality outside ofbhisnusefulness to the protagonist and only exists as an object in her gaze. Ken in Barbie is a refuting of this concept imo. But thwy litwrally say it in the explanation of ken, "every day is a great day for barbie but ken only has a good day if barbie looks at him" I think this is a part of why certain young men can be mislead by popular media to, if not simp, moreso wrap tgier peesonality around thier ability to provide for women.

[@somniumlucidus969]

Just finished your vid and you did address the prince charming aspect. I will give you that youre right about the traditional attracriveness of the women and you even hit the edward cullen debate. Good shit. I feel you. I would push back though and say that men are shaped by the female gaze to a level that you are seemingly unaware of, and id say that it's always been like this. One thing that i routinely find women dont understand is that the "innate male competition" is driven by scarcity of women. We do what we must to secure a woman, and in so far as the most competitive man vets the girl, thats what we become, but as thag criteria changes, so to do men. Take into consideration the change we've seen in men since the 60's to a more suave "woman's man" type. Theres no shade here, but the manbun, the yoga lover, the increase in men learning to dance, all of these things, while not explicitly for women, do fall into the understanding we have of what a desirable man looks like, and are taken from the aspects of the female gaze. You can look into the increased prevalence of weightlifting, protien and steroid use in middle / highschool boys (steroids moreso for highschool). All this to say that, i personally believe society vastly undervalues to degree to which men, just like women, judge themselves on their attracriveness to women and seek to adjust themselves to fit the female gaze. See: manscaped, the reduced stigma towards cunnilingus (sp?), metrosexual dress, alpha/sigma male grindset (though sold as personal work, it is often in the service of becoming more attracrive to women), and even the male feminism of the 2010's. Men have increasingly defined themselves in terms of the female gaze in the last 50 years i'd say but it's always been there. And again the prevalence of the rebel ken squad is essentially the first large scale recognition of this trope in a, "revenge of the himbos", rather than revenge of the nerds format. Also I'd push back that the women in stories are traditionally beautiful because theyre written by men. I'd agree to an extent but i think that the women are beautiful because all women want to believe their beautiful. The paralel for men isnt beauty but rather usefulness. All men want to believe they're useful and so the stale white wonderbread boy dream is often that he provides something of value, just for the sake of the plot and his characterization in the same way that the female protagonist aspires to a base level of beauty. Yes these are all written largely by men, but essentially most women aspire to being desireable even if they dont want thw affections of the men they desire. Aka all women want to believe they provide beauty (because as humans, heterosexual women generally want to be desired by men) and all heterosexual men want to believe they provide utility to women (for the same reason). The difference is that what women provide to men is generally (superficially) one thing, where as what men provide women, traditionally, is multifaceted. All this to say... great video but yes i think men are effected by the female gaze and it's just not talked about, and men do craft themselves in a way to be desired by women, and yes our male standards do lead us to sometimes fill dull uninspired roles in media and life that are one dimentional and id say that this even happens in male centered hero's journey stories. We typecast ourselfs very often in the female gaze and as more women writers flood the market, we will see an evening of this manic pixie dream boy, although i dont believe thats really the apt paralel. Mor ethe prince charming, because men provide stability in both fantasies as a paralel to traditional values of how both sexes see men's value.

[@yeehaw_2987]

@@somniumlucidus969i want whatever you’re smoking dude.

[@somniumlucidus969]

@@yeehaw_2987 a year sober got me high affffff

[@acidsab9649]

Hi!! first comment for me here in your channel. I really like your essays, I've watched several of them. I thought it was really interesting what you pointed out about male characters in the ya fiction of 2010s. It would be really fascinating to explore those cases where in the supposed riverse dynamic the mpdb translates into a mythical creature, I mean where does this "trope" stems from? because there's an idea of impossibility or exceptionality (in the male character) which is intriguing since those are stories written by women, and also how much does this come from the archetype of the prince charming, and how it goes together, in some cases, with the transformation trope you talked about, I mean even Bella Swan undergoes a transformation in the end. I think it's also related to the trope of the bad boy, or sometimes they're both present in the same narrative. Lastly If I'm not mistaken it's remarkable that the books behind those movie clips you showed are written by white women, and marketed for them (maybe for women in general but I don't know) and if I think about Edward Cullen, I don't know the other guys, they embodie conservative values or have a certain demeanor, like of the "austinian" gentleman. And really lastly these guys are supposed to "save" the female protagonist, like the mpdg saves, or initiates the male protagonist, but they turned into stable romantic partners unlike the mpdg that leaves the rotagonist at the end. English is not my first language, sorry for the bad writing, but i think it's a topic worth of being investigated.

[@evilincoln23]

I wrote a movie this year that came out of being rejected by girl. She has a lot of the hallmarks of a manic pixie dream girl right down the dyed hair. When she turned me down it only stung for little while as I didn’t think any less of her for saying and she’s still one of my favorite people I’ve ever met. I’d had ideas for this script but I didn’t know what the story was. Till I went to hangout with her and she was with another girl. (I’m a man by the way). Then it was like the final puzzle piece fell into place. It’s a story about an outsider who meets this “manic pixie girl” they go through the beats of the story you expect, but when things wrong, they go a revenge quest and part ways as dear friends. It Also involves murder, witchcraft and eldrich horror. In short I’d like to think I took the red out of my flashlight and saw who she really was and created a fitting tribute to my friend. She did read my story and told me she loved it which is the highest praise I could hope for.

[@joycewible8816]

What a beautiful way to honor your friend! Both in writing a story about her, and endeavoring to view her humanity without distortion. Ugh, that's just really, really lovely 🥹

[@evilincoln23]

@@joycewible8816 just trying to do better.

[@isabella8174]

I'm a writer (nothing published, just a little hobby) and love trying to make stories empowering women, ethnic minorities and disabled people so I love watching videos like this and getting more ideas for how I could write female protagonists

[@rimbaudscoffee3541]

Finally someone's asking the real hard hitting questions!

[@hollybaileyyyy]

honestly i dot rlly think clary and jace fit this trope, its been a long time since i read the books but i remember them both being equally manic pixie, clary helping everyone else be more rebellious against the institute, not knowing or caring abt protocols, and jace showing her this whole new world where shes a badass demon slayer

[@pinokosthewife]

I realized a little while ago, funnily enough, that the way I roleplay a Pokemon antagonist character wound up Manic Pixie Dream Boy (except maybe not really because there is a reason he acts this way-abandonment issues, low self-esteem, and gaining a sense of importance and self-worth from helping others and being useful)... he's very loyal and literally named for it (but his name also sounds like weapon/soldier and he dresses a bit like one...), he usually does whatever his partner asks him to do in canon and his partner is. Very unbothered about whether he lives or dies, very deadpan and detached. Whereas the one I rp is more animated and temperamental. He even critcizes that his partner's too serious when his partner says he's too playful in canon. The original character design said he was created with the image of a tanuki (racoon dog, they're pleasure-seekimg and jovial, oddly straight-forward and honest for trickster spirits.) I wound up writing him drawn to other characters like his partner and wanting to save them, be useful to them, help them, and help them have fun and find joy in life. O o p s .

[@marthelea]

I've now watched both of these videos and have to admit my mind expanded and eyes were opened when you talked about growing up with undiagnosed neurodivergency and how these films influenced us (being adored by men with our quirky traits was the way to be accepted) 🤯 But! I want to challenge the view on William Miller and Penny Lane from Almost Famous. I want to preface by saying that Eternal Sunshine and Almost Famous remain two of my all-time favourite movies to this day. I agree with everything said about Joel and Clementine and therefore want to make an argument for Penny and William. There are two male gazes in that movie: William's and Russell's. Penny is primarily with Russell and we view their relationship through William's eyes. Russell is treating and seeing Penny through the traditional male gaze we've come to know. William on the other hand is genuinely interested in Penny's wellbeing, history and person. He constantly questions why she acts the way she does, what she's running from and why, her real name and genuinely care for her. Yes, he has a crush on her, and he may be jealous of Russell, but everything he says or does seems to come from a place of caring for Penny and wanting to know more about her beyond the shallow appearance she puts on. And that's the other thing. She puts on this shallow appearance and persona very deliberately. We see the cracks in her mask several times (when William confronts her, on the plane alone, just to name a couple). It's very visible how she tries to constantly run from something, her past or her life. She tells William this at one point after her suicide attempt because he has proven that he can actually be trusted after years of being pursued by older rockstars. To me, she definitely shows a more in depth personality than a traditional manic pixie dream girl, and William feels a lot more like a genuinely caring stale white wonder bread boy. It doesn't take away from the obvious male gaze and other flaws, but I never ever felt like Penny was being cheated by the writing. Quite the opposite in fact. It's just as much a story about Penny Lane and her journey towards independence (hence the ending) as much as it is William's story. Highly suggest a rewatch. Truly. Especially the longer director's cut version (I can never see the shorter version anymore and I've watched it so many times now). Sincerely, a neurodivergent movie fan

[@Timberwolf_tilly]

when watching the original video on the manic pixie dream girl I considered 2 characters for that character archetype that I have kinned, firstly being Allison Reynolds. however I don’t fully believe she would be considered one since a lot of scenes are from her perspective, I was almost suprised to see her mentioned in this video. The opposite trope of the average girl crushing on an out of her league guy is my favorite trope that is often not seen in media, and as someone who loved she’s all that, the breakfast club and Cinderella for example I often hated how that character had to change herself just to get the guy to like her. It was a trope I constantly related to, and to see that the character was seemingly not good enough as she was for the guy to like her anyway hurt. but even though I would hope that in another universe the male love interest could love her for who she is, the makeover is honestly the most realistic part about it considering in real life the guy most likely would prioritize the outside appearance rather than the girl’s personality. In the breakfast club specifically though I felt like it was an actual perfect trope of this because Andrew saw her and liked her for who she was but the sudden makeover was completely unnecessary, but to the audience after the makeover it makes it seem like that was the only catalyst for their relationship. the other character who I considered for the manic pixie dream girl trope was slightly hard to define as one, but was Mal from descendants. as a child I completely saw myself and dreamed of being like Mal. she fits a lot of the standards of the manic pixie dream girl, being the mysterious, purple-haired (eventually blue haired), alternative outcast who the average basic white boy falls for. but as she is the main protagonist and is seen with a lot of depth I have no idea what she would be classified as. She saved Ben throughout the story many times, and even when she tells him she is not interested in him he continues believing that it’s not true and that she is his Destiny, and the queen to his kingdom and gets kidnapped and than she is forced to save him - however the movies are not in Ben’s perspective, and the audience for the movie is clearly not adult or teenage guys I feel as though he is slightly fit into the white wonder bread boy archetype as he is considerably average.

[@fantisamir]

As you stated, this dynamic and its relevant characters are defined by the gaze of one side. As such, the purpose of the story in regards to the audience is most important. The self-insert MPDG-related stories exist to give plain, disillusioned, bored-of-life guys a boost--both in terms of self-love and a desire to live. As such, the manic pixie dream boy is to do the same for the stale white wonderbread girl. Thus, a self-insert stale girl is supposed to get confidence and a desire to live by being with this manic pixie dream boy. And that happens all the time in real life. We see a blonde (but otherwise average) woman end up with a doctor/governor/what have you, and now she feels good about herself and is always doing activities. It is wrong to assume that the MPDB will be the same as the MPDG in that they are artistic and alternative. As stated, the core of the two dynamics mentioned is the gaze. The audience. Men are usually taught to provide in order to get a partner. To be successful and have a name for themselves. Women are usually taught to be pretty and nice. They are taught to be receptive in order to be desired. Thus, the MPDG tells the boy that he is enough, and that the reason for his dissatisfaction is because other people do not see what he sees. The MPDB on the other hand, makes the girl feel pretty and increases her social status by making her receive his affection, making her satisfied with life. In conclusion, MPDBs do exist, they are just not hanging out at the art gallery smoking weed.

[@emilym.2109]

PLEASE make a video about how men don’t actually care about the “female gaze” and actually perform for the male gaze more often. i’ve had this same thought forever but can’t articulate it properly

[@popipopipopopippo]

can you elaborate on this

[@antonyvictorique2550]

*The tenth doctor has entered the chat*

[@mb3608]

Hey I loved your video, again greatly done. Well, again I got my own experiences on this topic. Is there a manic pixie dream boy? Yes, I think there is and it has to do with the female counterpart of the stale white wonderbread boy. I too often became the manic pixie dreamgirl myself and then ended up wondering why people got surprised that I had feelings - wich could be hurt, that I got needs and desires - that needed to be heard and accepted. It's easy to see how young, maybe depressed men, that don't have the bightest outlooks on life, stick to this fantasy versions of women. But it got confusing when I realised, that I had women around me, that not only supported every man in my life, that only loved a quirky phantasy version of me - they also got actively dismissive against men that seemed to have a grap on reality and still loved me for who I am (and yeah, I was kind of fucked up). Once a handsome knight-like guy showed up in my life, not my boyfriend, just a flatmate, but he was there nonetheless: sixpack, life saving (literally, that was his job), doing extrem sports. And here is where it got really disgusting for me: I saw the same women turning into phantasizing brainless horny, cartoon like characters, dreaming away in a wild fantasy to get out of their lives (that included husband and kids) with this man. The way they talked about him,... well, lets say it was kind of dehumanizing. Weird that I needed to see this being done to a man to realized, that these women where not my friends. I think the manic pixie dream boy is nothing but a modernized version of the white knight in shining amour. Just the boiled down, quirky, not giving a shit, low-class version of it, still extremly sexy, but you know, more obtainable that one of the few royals that usually don't look like Barbie's Ken. And very much like Jack in Titanic, saving you from a horrible marriage. But that beeing said, I also believe its more likely to meet a man, who's for no other reason but beeing a super special snow flake, thinks he deserved their dream princess or manic pixie dream girl or whatever, than the other way around. Simply because its harder to keep this phantasies up as a woman. All my phantasies got constantly shattered and everyone seemed to be 200% more critical of me than my brothers or male classmate, colleges, whatever. At least that was my experience, growing up in the 2000s. But then, in the end: it doesn't matter if its about women or men. It's just sad to see twisted dreams of either of them turned into a cinematic idealization. In the end its just propaganda to turn the people around us into what we want them to be instead of accepting the reality of humans or authenticity or all this bad things that threaten inflated egos. I don't know, If I sound confusing, thats because I am, and I'm also tired of getting stuck in other peoples dirty phantasies. Love you all people who try to keep a grip on reality

[@chaoticlife3670]

Fleabag could sort of be an example of this reverse dynamic. Not precisely, ik, but still I loved it and felt like it appealed way more to the female gaze.

[@fiku_paletta]

I think Edward being the clearest example of the inversion of the trope tells us that most stories featuring manic pixie dream girls share the same problem as Twilight, i.e. they are fantasies, and thus follow a "selfish" logic that doesn't usually make for a well rounded, compelling narrative.

[@Leto85]

25:55 Finally someone said it. The age cap in Twilight makes Humbert in Lolita almost innocent. A friend of mine said something that comes down to Edward being frozen in time but that only makes human female lovers even more beneath him: no-one has his life experience and teenage brain at the same time. The way I see it either he'd fall for for an 80 year old woman for her life experience who in her turn may find him to be too childlike due to his frozen in time age, or he wouldn't fall for humans at all. I am 38 as I type this and I already see an age cap with people 10 years younger than me. Not to say that a relationship would be impossible but in comparison Edward falling for a 16 year old human does not make sense to me. She falling for him however, yes, that makes sense. I hope you'd like to address these impossible fictional age caps in a future video because I don't see many people do this and there's a lot to talk about. I haven't seen people do this at all now I think of it.

[@dafnedimarco]

very difficult concept that can really be misunderstood by many, that's why those rush comments regarding the previous assey. You nailed it brilliantly, indeed, could be interpretated as the opposite dynamic but in reality the one that is starting the whole thing is always the male, as per the manic pixie dream girl, is the male gazing and approaching the manic pixie dream girl as they think she will be able to "save" them, by changing their life entirely. However in those examples of the manic pixie dream boy, is still the boy gazing the girl thinking she needs to be saved, approaching her to change her life, and yes indeed as you say, because they are in some way attracted to her, despite not being avarage. however there could be some ecceptions in which she is more than avarege, as per Rose in Titanic.

[@InGovWeMistrust]

28:30 I like the points you've made up until this point but as an inherent flaw in your logic about men not feeling pressure to "be more like Edward Cullen in order to make themselves more palatable to women," I would argue that everything that an unmarried heterosexual male looking for a partner does is in some way to make themselves more appealing to women. Saying that a man will try to embody the traits of strength, protectiveness, intelligence, sensitivity, or otherwise has less to do with the fact that those are the traits of Edward Cullen than the fact that those are typically traits of traditional masculinity that heterosexual women are generally attracted to. In my mind the "manic pixie dream boy" is the equivalent of the typical female idea of a one dimensional "prince charming" or even shares parallels with the "outcast rebel bad boy." The male equivalent of Ramona Flowers through the gaze of a heterosexual female gaze would likely be a character like Noah from The Notebook or Jason Dean from Heathers. Basically a one dimensional male character whose primary reason for existing is to serve as a love interest for the lead female.

[@FinalGirlStudios]

It’s not a flaw in my logic you just disagree with me, which is fine haha. I’m pretty sure I address the Prince Charming argument in this video? I also operate under the belief that men actually perform more for other men than they do for women, which is where that sentiment comes from. Men socially value the opinions of other men far more than they value the opinions and approval of women. Men will certainly do things to impress women, however they won’t do those things if it will threaten their social standing amongst other men. This can be seen even in the way that men actively made fun of Edward Cullen when twilight was popular. Men actively make fun of any male celebrities or characters women gravitate towards, rather than trying to emulate them this can be seen with Justin Bieber, Timothee Chalamet, and Pete Davidson to name a few.

[@FinalGirlStudios]

@nunyabaznus7851 you’re actually SO close to understanding my point

[@solg6748]

Im not sure the fault in our stars qualifies, because the quirkiness of the guy is explored as a copying mechanism for his terminal disrase. And the girls sees him and empathises with him as cancer even robs him of that quirkiness

[@marina.................]

(love your videos!!!

[@morqesahar]

The beauty and the beast is a great example of that too imo since I have seen some women use the beast metaphor for the violent outbursts of their boyfriends.

[@CarrollLiddell]

Growing up I definately felt pressure to fit one male archetype or another to be palatable to women, so did many of my peers. It's why so many of us went to the gym and worked on our physical appearance, styled ourselves, tried to look aesthetic. It took me along time to become comfortable in my own way and focus on health and not the female gaze.

[@geniesloveme24]

Did you ever think about how that pressure could have been impacted by male gaze too, in reference to ideals perpetrated by toxic masculinity? For most girls I knew growing up, muscles weren’t really of interest. From what I’ve seen, it’s men’s perceptions of themselves and one another that influence a lot of their insecurities.

[@Evelyn_Okay]

In the world of fanfic tropes, they've watered-down and fantasized a mpdg romance as "grumpy/sunshine," in which, the mpdg/b 'fixes' the grumpy one. When really, the mpdg/b is supposed to force the other to embrace fun and the other forces the mpdg/b to 'grow up'

[@freckledandred]

Men only see themselves through the gaze of themselves as the hero while women see themselves as the hero and the love interest interchangeably

[@dunkel429]

Fantastic explanation 🔴

[@JackElliotSwan]

I am actually do some research on MPDG/B because I am going to be writing a full review of the 2011 film Waiting For Forever featuring a younger Tom Sturridge as the character of Willie. I do think Willie is a MPDB, but still with the male gaze in mind as he was written by a man, the only well fleshed out character in the film and is "paired" with a white wonder bread girl. I plan on writing more about all my thoughts on the film, the characters and why it might even be connected to 1ncel culture. I also plan on drawing comparisons with that film but also Cillian Murphy's film Watching The Detectives which actually pair two Manic Pixie Dream people together and they match each others energy. I think MPDG/B only works when yes, as you have stated, the characters are humanized but also when both characters match each others energy and challenge each other equally. For me as a neurodivergent person I have found that I connect more meaningfully with other neurodivergent folks, so in a way I think it is much the same with this trope... considering this trope is essentially just characters that are neurodivergent coded... I am curious what you think and or if you'd have your own video you could make about these two films and the differences between them; why WFF doesn't work and why WTD does work.

[@Wearetheweirdos_crochet]

It took me a solid five minutes to realize you were saying gaze and not gays

[@crowboggs]

Solid essay and I think you make your points in a clear and convincing manner. Something that strikes me both here and in some of your other essays (as I have only viewed some of them) is your perspective on/of audiences. Sometimes they seem defined as passive consumers of media. Sometimes, as is often the case with your own viewing that can be discerned from your insights, they are active viewers who bring their own experiences to the media and are engaged in an active dialogue with that media (What is the message of the film? How is the rhetoric and presentation trying to affect the viewer/me/assumed audiences? Is this film integrative, disintegrative or liberatory relative to the overarching socio-economic and cultural hegemony of its time and place? Etc.) It is possible to be one or the other or both and at different times... this isn't an attempt to disparage you or what you have done here (which is great), but maybe, if you haven't already, looking into reader response theory would be helpful. It isn't much in fashion these days and it is slanted far more toward print media, but you're already engaged in it, especially when it comes to intersectionality and a seemingly natural aversion to Formalism and New Criticism, so, perhaps, you will find it an ally of sorts. Just a suggestion and thanks again for your work.

[@AlexVersiuneaUnu]

26:10 wilight was primarily memed on, not characterized as a societal problem like the detractors of the manic pixie dream girl, and that was just because of the popularity of the movie and the crazy obsessed fandom.

[@tatiananemirovskaya]

The manic pixie dream archetype was literally taken from Peter Pan. The girl archetype is the reverse. Temperamentally, a girl with such archetype is more of a recent fantasy because we the boy that dreams about it is not a traditional hero anyone ever found attractive, while the male version of this archetype has existed in fairy tales or myths for thousands of years, most notably Mercury/Hermes. The key characteristics of this archetype is not that they are weird and more quirky than their plain companions, but that they are here to provide the unexpected turn of events through spontaneous adventures that a more passive introverted partner wouldn't be able to get into on their own. Their purpose is to shake one's mundane predictable reality. They are karmic busters. I’d also add that the stale wonderbread archetype is a perfect match for a manic pixie dream character as both are weird in the same way but are opposite in their temperamental expression. One is a shy introverted artistic type who is not outwardly expressive (and therefore perceived as stale and boring and flat) and the other is extremely outwardly expressive (therefore perceived as unique, interesting, quirky and weird). But I can’t really see these archetypes with other traditional male/female fantasies, which is why the manic dream pixie archetype is literally only a fantasy of a stale wonderbread archetype and noone else’s. The reason that the stale white wonderbread boy gets to stay the way he is is because he’s not trying to land a femme fatale archetype. Just like a MDPG would not be able to land a hot sexy bad boy. She’d have to undergo a transformation too but not for the stale wonderbread boy. She’s his dream as he’s dreaming of his own highest potential through a looking glass. I have to disagree that the manic pixie dream archetype doesn’t exist in reality or without the fantasy of the other. I bet if we had to explore it on its own, we’d find that this type of character wants the introverted stable type because they would provide a grounding quality. After all the first word is “manic” in the MDPG archetype. I personally think that they are both looking to save each other especially since saving your love interest has long been the ultimate romanticized #lovegoals.

[@rowanwax]

Ten things I hate about you as discussed in the first video shows a quirky character can be in a relationship with a quirky character. The gaze is what's being discussed, not the personalities. I recommend watching her red flashlight explanation again.

[@darinaprstmmprhdl6975]

Hmm. I wonder if Howl really counts though? He is DEFINITELY presented like one in anime - but, it seems, only for the viewers? If I remember correctly, both book and anime Sophie finds his quite irritating and even scary initially and only warms up when she gets to know him better. Some kind of Schroedinger's boy he is, haha.

[@malloryaler4040]

I can exist imo, Howl's Moving Castle is THE example. Plain ol' Sophie? Absolute MANIC PIXIE dream boi Howl? He's so quirky, he literally swallows a star for reasons.

[@MrSeathing]

It's funny i was just recommended this video because i just finished watching The movie The Passenger, about a manic pixie dream girl and stale white wonder bread boy - but the manic pixie character is a 30 year old man, and their behaviors that slot them into this trope are very much driven by trauma. It functions as an example of what sort of experiences would drive someone into embodying both of those tropes/modes of behavior. Also, the manic pixie incel in that movie is forcing bread boy into personal development at gunpoint.

[@Gbigdaddy]

I think the Male version is the James Bond , Superman and Louis lane , or Tom cruise in mission impossible. I say that because that’s what I believe men tried to emulate in order to attract the female Gaze or attention love etc . We would not see the Edward type of character strong enough to attract the women we desire in my humble opinion. Also as far as what females project onto males as fantasy resembles the qualities of a man like the characters i mentioned before if a man isn’t James bind interesting or doesn’t have that charisma or spearman strength and dominance he’s seen as shattering the women’s pixie dream . I love the Channel great post workout material

[@prayofdevil]

I was listening to this video.. so you might imagine my spike of interest and confusion of understanding gays : the male gays, the gays in general. It really took me time to realise you weren't actually talking about understanding gays :D

[@Alienaddikt]

This is also explored in Ruby Sparks!

[@TobyLizard]

Hello, I really enjoyed this video!! But I’m curious, would you be willing to cover the topic of male and female gaze in connection to queerness? My question is: do you feel that if the gaze of the viewer were coming from someone queer, would that change the dynamic of the typical male gaze of women or the female gaze of men? If the gaze of the person was a man viewing another man or woman viewing another woman what would change? Would it still be as problematic as the heteronormative gaze of the opposite sex/gender? In a different video (the one about the movie Poor Things, I believe) you spoke about how it can be problematic for men to write women because they simply don’t experience life from a female or feminine standpoint. Would a queer perspective be different because it’s viewing females from a feminine perspective and males from a masculine perspective? Of course queer and gay people can be problematic, but from the point of view of someone consuming media in a critical context what would you say? If you don’t feel comfortable sharing your thoughts on this that’s totally fine!! I’m just curious as to what you might think

[@EvieEvangelion]

I would also like to suggest that Tyler Durden in Fight Club is a Manic Pixie Dream Boy, in a sense, or at least in his introduction.

[@aliveslice]

3:25 4:40 11:35 12:28 14:15 20:00 *23:10 23:40 24:25 25:00 25:20 28:40

[@oops6876]

Weirdly enough, I feel like after dealing with heavy trauma in my life that I’m kinda viewed as a “manic pixie dream boy” to people. I don’t seek out relationships, but I often find girls falling for my weird “mysterious and whimsical” demeanor, but idk how to even deal with that, so I play dumb as a defense mechanism. It’s like, I just wanna be a side character in other peoples’ stories, but I’m often focused on and treated as a prize to be won or a puzzle to solve or something. Tbh it’s exhausting Let me just be weird and pretty in peace lol

[@aliveslice]

No

[@oops6876]

@@aliveslice nice retort ya got there, bud. Very insightful

[@vivvy_0]

easy, gain weight and get some facial scars 😂

[@KernelHughes]

Manic Pixies of either gender arent inherently bad as long as they're well written.

[@barbarian-furu]

amazing essay, thank you!

[@marianna-sophiabegaysacaid494]

The Prince sees the true character of the Princess in the fairytale they are all atleast aristocracy if not royalty

[@rabbit4400]

Personally I reject the gaze perspective and all these objectifying and dehumanizing and even though I dont see it that way, others do and it both fascinates me and repulse me. I hate the beautification montages like in Princess Diaries for example (I also dont believe in the concept of ugly and you have to change to conform to the standard "beauty"). I thought she is cute as she is and my favorite character is always that one boy who liked her before all fame and changes. Movies like these wants to create a Pixie dream girl. But its also always the female in these stories that are chasing the hot popular male before realizing what they wanted was in front of them all this time. But here is something that you brought up that I do think exists, males do feel the need to change or live up to a certain standard set by society, its the reason the whole red pill/incels thing started. Personally I get annoyed at the beautification of females in movies but roll my eyes at the male classically handsome and buff, like all the bread boys out there are already handsome and good looking and even though I as a male just accepts this roll my eyes and know I don't need to live up to this expectation a lot of men do same as females think they have to live up to the standards media portrays. But we must also realize that people only want to change or feel they have to change is because both males and females wants the fantasy. If we accepted that media is a fantasy and one should not look for it in real life then no one would feel the need to change, but we do have people that do look like that fantasy and are on the surface living that fantasy (perpetuated by social media by us to others) we blur the lines between fiction and reality. I feel I am going off topic here though. Thank you for the video, very good!

[@RollingCalf]

Imagine that someone who does not have"gaze" in their vocabulary watching this

[@kaylavanrooyen3176]

Love ur videos could you please do a video on the movie Marie the doll (1976) explaining it please

[@crazyratlady3115]

I would actually disagree that Howl from Howl's Moving Castle is a manic pixie dream boy - in the original trilogy, it's very explicitly stated that Sophie is a natural sorceress who has been unknowingly using her magic for years. She's crushed by the expectation that, as the oldest daughter, she will amount to nothing, and at first manifests this destiny for herself by speaking it into reality. Howl is drawn to her because he can sense her magic, and because he's a bit of a cad who likes courting pretty girls just to flee as soon as their hearts are won. Sophie describes herself as plain, and so this is how others see her, but Howl is able to see through this illusion because of his own experience and seems to find it fascinating that she'd purposefully make herself uglier to achieve social invisibility. In the later books of the trilogy she's described as exceedingly lovely, despite her argumentative and intimidating personality. Howl's Moving Castle, and the sequels, are basically a bunch of Heroes Journeys happening concurrently and in spite of each other. Howl and Sophie somehow defeat the Witch of the Wastes despite the fact that they spend the whole book dancing around and unwittingly sabotaging each other and essentially 'fail forward' together. He's not a pixie dream boy, she's not a damsel. They're both equally the heroes of their story and are later sought after as equally powerful magicians with their own strengths.

[@maggiedixon3788]

I love all of your videos so much ❤️

[@joshua-we9xr]

Astarion from BG3

[@laraspace6139]

Well, he has a lot of issues 😅

[@bugzy_brain]

i am The Manic Pixie Dream Boy. male gaze? female gaze? nonsense. im gazing at myself and being super silly about it :3c

[@LunaticSolari]

I love this comment

[@googlespynetwork]

I thought she was taking about understanding Gay's at first.😂 I was wondering where that was going.

[@andreasolano8248]

Remember the thake video the examples of mani pixie dream boys that she give where more versatil can be couchs teachers, even sons not necesary romantic interest o even youg like Robin williams diverses roles

[@jonsmith9838]

what about the true blood books. or several doctors from dr who

[@ObviouslyGuitarMen]

I think "manic pixie dream boy exists" its just that he exists for different reasons and traits than manic pixie dream girl to fulfill the female fantasy. The stale white wonderbread boy is still a hollywood actor that many women find attractive more often than not. Examples of men in media who fulfill the role in my opinion: Mr.grey from 50 shades Mr. Big from sex and the city Either love interest from twilight. Also if there was an argument for "stale white wonderbread girl" Bella from twilight is literally stale wonderbread personified and while she may be conventionally attractive shes low tier by hollywood standards. The simple fact that most stale white wonderbread girls are still pretty decently good looking is just a weak argument.

[@TryingToWakeUp-qb7iu]

A trans woman! Great to see trans women making content on YT. Nice to see transphobia on the decline in US. Happy pride month.