Fingertip vs Conventional Fit | Bowling Basics | ARE YOU MAKING THE RIGHT CHOICE?

Fingertip vs Conventional Drilling? What is it and what is best for you? Sean "Simoo" demonstrates both fits in this vid!
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Timestamps!!!
0:00 - Intro
0:39 - Conventional Pros and Cons
1:41 - Drilling
2:29 - Conventional Bowling
6:24 - Question Time with Simoo
6:42 - Fingertip Pros and Cons
8:26 - Fingertip Bowling
11:11 - Summary
If you have any questions or suggestions, shoot us an email - [e-mail]

[@gregnapier1181]

My first ball was a 12lb Brunswick Axis, conventional drilling. I got it and the drilling done at K-Mart, haha. I still got it tucked away somewhere.

[@petetoemmes6673]

My first drill is gonna take you back to even before you were a twinkle in your eventual parents eye. 1960s Manhattan Rubber but drilled at that time in what was called a semi finger tip. So the progression was full finger drill, semi fingertip, and the finger tip.

[@markbrown7449]

My first was a green mustang bought from a discount store in the mid 70's. The people in those stores didn't know how to drill a ball correctly, so it was what it was..

[@TrainWatcherDon]

My first ball was an Earl Anthony Signature Magnum 10 with a semi-fingertip grip. Loved it! (Yes, it was the 1970s!)

[@igoramaral95]

I've drilled a few balls for a guy who throws conventional, and he's really good at it and it didn't really take many revs out of him. The secret is having much more reverse on the fingers and forward on the thumb. In his case, he had 1/2 rev on middle, 5/8 on ring and 1/4 forward on the thumb. This makes it easier to have your hand cupped and release correctly for a hook ball (thumb out first).

[@markbrown7449]

The magic word here is practice.. At my age, I'm going back to a conventional grip, cause I don't need a hooking ball. The right release of the ball will give it the rotation it needs. Thanks for this video, it really helped out a lot..

[@elbystump56]

My first ball was a Blue 14lb Columbia 300 White Dot which was given to me by my uncle which just so happened to roughly fit my hand. I used it for a few years until finally I saved up enough paper route money to buy my AMF UltraAngle 15lb black urethane with fingertips at age 12, I loved that ball.

[@Phleb79]

My first ball was a Sport Tech Plastic Ball drilled conventionally. I got this when I was 15, I’m now 43 and use this as my spare pick up ball. It’s a trident true straight shooter for me. I recently purchased my first reactive ball, a Scorpion. It’s drilled with tip style and learning how to get that ball reacting.

[@chompjammers4947]

I am a senior, but not even close to a beginner. I almost went pro in the 1970s, but got military orders to Germany instead. I broke my wrist in airborne school, and could no longer bowl. I recently came back after over 20 years. Throwing my fingertip with high revs was causing tremendous pain in my fingers due to arthritis. I had a new Rino Teal drilled conventional. Now I have no pain, and get a smooth action, not the sharp backend action I was getting before. I actually like the smooth action better, and the missing pain is a plus. I was considering giving it up, but now have a new lease on the game

[@ryankane7177]

I've been messing around with an old brunswick black beauty, drilled conventional. It's a challenge, but it's really fun. Probably going to end up using this as a spare ball because it shoots so straight.

[@Mikey-1990]

First ball that was fitted for me with finger tips, was the OG Ebonite Game Breaker back in 2007. Before that, I had an Ebonite Mirage that my mom got me for Christmas back in 2001, which was the first year I started to take lessons. It just had three pre drilled fingers in it and obviously didn't fit that great, but it still helped me learn basic fundamentals.

[@VanillaMidgetSSBM]

My first ball was a Roto Grip Shout, Conventional Grip, the next season I got used to throwing a hook, shot a 233 game and was averaging 140s, went to Fingertip and kept improving. Its definitely less comfortable, but its so much better to use

[@denmanfite3156]

First ball was conventional and plastic. I played about half a season before grabbing a reactive and kept the same drilling. It wasn't until my local proshop changed hands that I began REALLY getting involved in different drilling. Everything I have is fingertip now and uses Turbo Switchgrip thumbs for the best release. Cheers!

[@slip309]

Just got my first ball a couple months ago, Hammer Infamous. It's drilled finger tip. Trying to learn the finer points of making it perform. Working on getting the bowler up to the level of the ball. Thanks for the great vids!

[@Blue-cq2hl]

My first ball was a fingertip and I've been playing around with my span and the finger style more these days. The vacugrip style is really nice for me in particular too because of my knotted knuckles which gives more play vertically since I need a bigger horizontal space due to that. My first one was a bare thumb but I like slugs more.

[@dangeorge809]

Back in the day the transition from conventional to fingertip was a challenge. Two of the books I later came across, Strike Touch Bowling by Jim Kenny and another book by Earl Anthony whose title I forget, both suggested starting with fingertip. Based on my own experience, I would suggest starting with it too, unless you have issues with your knuckles. Regardless of which way you go, a good ball technician to fit, layout, and drill the ball for you is paramount.

[@Final_Sora]

I started bowling in my mid twenties, so a bit older and I started with a semi-fingertip Quantum Houble Helix. Didn't use it much before I got my first main ball, a fingertip Raw Hammer Toxic

[@Shincism]

Just purchased my first 2 today and going to try learn fingertip. I ended up with a Storm tropical surge and a columbia 300 white dot. Very keen to start learning

[@kingalbby2497]

I got my first ball last week right before thanks giving right on Wednesday. It is a Roto Grip Hustle at 14lb. finger tip. First time I was able to hook the ball with out getting super sore or throwing weird.

[@kingalbby2497]

I still need to get better with it. I am terrible unless the oil is fresh.

[@BentheBowler]

My first ball was the hammer black widow legend with finger tip. Once I got more serious into bowling I then added the turbo switchgrip system for my thumb.

[@igorhabljak3218]

Nice video in explaining the difference in the two grip styles. I would add that the number of REVs is dependent on a lot of other factors, and players who have higher REVs can get them with no problem even with a conventional grip (maybe a few less). The big issue with conventional grip is the tightness of the thumb hole. Usually, if the thumb is not tight in the thumb hole, the hand is having a hard time being relaxed, and it results in a grabbed shot, with a poor release. So, for REVs, make sure your thumb hole is drilled tight, no matter the grip style.

[@bradn817]

First ball was as a child. Brunswick polyester grey swirl 12 lbs. Conventional finger holes. Threw it straight as hard as I could angled in from the 2nd dot to the headpin lol. Just getting back into it now 40 years later. Wish I lived where you guys are cause we have nothing here for product sales and decent pro shops. Love your videos guys! You do a great job and very informative!

[@jacob2733]

I have been bowling conventional, my coach is having me start to try out with finger tips and I’m excited

[@notsporks3181]

Good video guys like always 👍

[@robintompkins8745]

nice to have a bit of information with finger tips the difference between ovals and lifts

[@martinboyd3672]

Interesting video, I bowled for years fingertip then had a break for a few years when i got back into it had trouble with joint pain , so have gone back to conventional, and are getting pretty good results , as a lefty I'm use to the edge and with my lower ball speed I'm getting a nice rotation and shape , plus no pain ! Works for me .

[@scotmcpherson]

I just bought a new ball myself after getting a bit older. I have a touch of arthritis in various joints in my hands. I think Conventional is going to make the most sense for me when the ball arrives and it's time for me to get it drilled.

[@imyopped4921]

fist ball i ever drilled was a storm phaze, drilled it with a 2ls system for 2 handers so i could get multiple ball motions while still learning mechanics of my game.

[@alastairsellars2611]

My first ever ball was a conventional grip but graduated to a reactive Storm Flame reactive urethane ball which was drilled finger tip. That were in 2000.

[@dravensteele5149]

I have always loved bowling I am on a team but I have not ever bought a ball this video helped a lot with picking a ball

[@Rodriguez2.3t]

My first ball, was a 10lb Freeze with white finger tips, won tournaments when I was 13, haven’t bowled in 10 years and want to get back into it.

[@Bloodth3Butcher]

My first ball was a resin Rhino....drilled it with fingertips grip because I only bowl with 2 fingers and no thumb. Gives me more on my rev rate. Fun times.

[@remohor]

Just had mine drilled last week - fingertip. I'm going to get it tomorrow, Monday.

[@RAM_845]

I've been throwing Conventional for over 5 years now. I received my Storm Phaze 2 in the mail yesterday and booked an appointment with my local pro shop on Tuesday to get my ball drilled, I'm going fingertip coz I wanna hook the ball. My previous ball was a conventional drilled plastic ball. now upgraded to a reactive solid but going pin-up and fingertip.

[@jamesgonyer8454]

First ball was a roto grip sonic x. Finger tip. Loved it. Bowled my first 200 game with it. My personal best is 244 so far ( track triple threat )

[@pg9831]

Columbia 300 Burgundy Shadow/R. Conventional, later changed to fingertip

[@GrandpaG1776]

My first bowling ball was a Don Carter urethane back in the early 80's and I had finger tip grips. I think I had one Conventional but had to redrilled because it did not feel confortable to me.

[@billem3085]

I like your space suits!

[@user-sg4in1gn5s]

My dad got me a Brunswick Black Beauty drilled conventionally for Saturday morning league when I was a kid. I thought it was so cool because I got to have my initials engraved on it!

[@jeroldjorgensen5019]

My first bowling ball was a Columbia 308 pound spare ball

[@jeroldjorgensen5019]

Conventional drilled it was when I was about eight years old

[@ronaldbouye5801]

Finger tip ball and it was a green Columbia Messenger

[@alexbrooks5805]

my first ball was a tzone spare ball and i hooked it pretty well for a 12 pound ball and it was conventional

[@nordattack]

My first ball was a rubber ball with conventional grip. It had a Cougar face on it. To this day I only use conventional grips in all of my balls including reactive resin. But..I use vice finger inserts and a thumb slug that I hand carve to a perfect oval with grip tape in front and black tape in back and a vent hole to prevent suction.

[@jeffthompson8033]

First was a fingertip piranha...miss that ball imma dig and see if I still have it 😄

[@MrFlyb4crawl]

My first bowling ball is a Black Widow Hybrid 2.0 12lb ball. I had it drilled finger tip. Tried it out after it was drilled on the carpet towards the employee that drilled it. It wasn't until I took it out for a test drive on the bowling alley that I noticed I was having some trouble with the thumb and finger tips holding too snuggly on my hand. My fingers swell as I used the ball in a few frames and fingers felt like they were rubbing uncomfortably. So, I switched back to a 12 lb conventional alley ball for the rest of the game. I went back and had the thumb and finger tips increased to the next size up and hope that will make a difference in being able to use the ball for an entire first game. The one thing I noticed when I threw the ball from the 2nd far right diamond that I threw a gutter ball on the left side due to how snuggly it fit to my fingers and thumb. When I tried my next ball I tried slowing down my throw with better results. Have to slow down the throw power on a finger tip to maintain control is what I noticed. I normally throw a 12 lb conventional alley ball and it hooks a bit more than when I throw a 13 lb conventional alley ball. When I hold a 13 lb ball out in front of me, my muscles shake trying to hold the ball out stretched. Yet, I am still able to hold it out there for a while. When I hold a 12 lb ball out in front on me my muscles don't shake trying to hold the weight out in front of me. We can all throw a slightly heavier ball for a while. Its the long game that effect us. With a lighter ball I tend to want to throw it harder and that can lead to a bad throw, vs a heavier ball that reals me in on how hard I throw the ball and have a better result on ball placement, even throw it is a straighter throw with less hook.

[@thomasrowe8095]

I can't remember my first ball but the balk I remember most as my first was the Up Roar and it was drilled fingertip

[@niatgaming7146]

My first ball that wasn't a plastic ball was a 15lb Storm Diablo. Fingertip drill.

[@Jeffwolfenson]

First ball at 14. I am 67. Was a finger tip Dick Weber 5 star ball.

[@carlosvasquez6504]

I just bought my very first bowling ball It’s the Hammer Black Widow 3.0 and I’m thinking about getting it drilled with the finger tips💪🏽🔥

[@bizzarroh]

First drill specifically for me was a Columbia 300 Beast. Fingertip. Those pink grips and orange slug on that flat purple looked so good. I wonder where that ball even ended up. My mom probably sold it at a garage sale.

[@TraumaER]

I had a SuperBeast with pink or orange inserts also. Not sure why so many drillers used those colors for a blue ball LOL!

[@bizzarroh]

@@TraumaER I called my mom today and confirmed she still has it. It will now be my gf's first finger tip reactive ball to move on from her plastic conventional.

[@TraumaER]

@@bizzarroh nice!

[@davidbeamon6726]

my first ball was ascent apex from motiv was drilled fingertip but my spare ball was conventional

[@mrmidnight32]

My first ball the rhino was conventional, I know how a black widow that’s finger tip. I go back and forth with both with our issue. The rhino is my spare ball and allows me to bowl straight or hook. I have no issue rolling either. But I agree finger tip has less grip to really throw it hard.

[@youngtweet3068]

Have a dark legend drilled fingertip with a pinky hole since I bowl two handed. The pinky hold helps with lift

[@minichese9043]

My first ball was a Brunswick hero pearl 2 hole fingertip drill, got it after giving myself trigger finger learning how to hook with a house ball lol

[@jonathanvandermerwede850]

I use finger tip and I'm a 2 handed Lefty

[@vortexgaming322]

First ball was fingertip and it’s really hard to get use to but also only have like 6 games on it, got the ghost pearl.

[@bolllochead]

My first was a plastic conventional. 6 months on, I now have 2 urethane (Mix, Pitch Black) and 1 reactive (Surge), all fingertip.

[@brendonwages844]

Conventional drilling is for me now I use my ring finger and my pinky and I can't get anyone to drill right for me I need my my pinky finger lower and all shops drilling for me is laughing at me I'll find that right drilling for me

[@popanda3652]

my first ball was a all red elite spiderwasp. given to me by my coach it didn't fit my hand so it was drilled for conventional grip, on me it was fingertip. for my release my pap was also my pin lol. I was too poor at the time to get it plugged and redrilled but it lasted me years. after a year I just lost the desire to change it. I'd resurface it every 6 months or so. cracked a couple years ago and I can't find a replacement lol. I'm into hyped and hustle cores now anyway. probably why I'm so versatile now is because of that first ball. I throw backup at my 10 pins, I can bowl thumb or thumbless 1 handed with similar results, and I can change my release alot depending on what I need. my next ball is gonna be a strong ball with a conventional thumbless drilling. I know they said keep them all the same, but I've been doing it weird since I was a teenager back in 2012, and I can't settle on one style. maybe if my average starts to plateau I'll pick one and master it.

[@TrandafirRuby]

Pitch purple 2 finger fingertip drilling

[@Popsplace42]

My first ball was a plastic ball, drilled for me when I was 16, 30 years ago with conventional grip. I still use the ball today. Recently I’ve gotten into learning to hook, and bought a reactive ball that’s drilled fingertip. It is taking a lot of getting used to, feels like it’s going to fall off my hand on the backswing, but I’m slowly getting used to it.

[@jameskrys5286]

I can put backspin on a fingertip ball. Learned this on my rug.

[@brettrobbins2707]

my first ball was a ebonite gyro urethane, was drilled fingertip but no grips, was 12 years old avg 150 with it

[@flhelms]

Very informative video! My first ball was a Brunswick T-Zone. I had no idea what I was doing, it's very light, and it's conventional. It's basically useless to me now. My second is a Roto Grip Hustle which I've been using for league and it's done me well. I've had it for almost 3 years but probably have only about 6 months of use (thanks Covid). I still didn't know what I was doing when I got it so I'm pretty sure it is also conventional. My new Storm Phase V should arrive tomorrow and I'm almost certain I'm getting it drilled fingertip.

[@MikeDCWeld]

Interesting. My first ball was also a T-Zone but I still use mine regularly for spare shots, particularly on the right side using the back up ball technique. My second ball was also a plastic ball and both of those were drilled conventional. My first reactive ball was the Roto Grip Hustle Camo Solid and I had it drilled fingertip with grips and no thumb.

[@billyenglish8523]

My first ball was a Storm HyRoad Pearl with fingertips with no thumb, have ptsd from my thumb getting stuck in house balls lol. Somehow I still manage to get a decent to good backswing without the stability of the thumb. Definitely makes it harder to throw it straight, even with my Storm Ice, I can still accidentally get a little rotation on it.

[@remoevans7847]

First ball with conventional grip: Columbia 300 White Dot First ball with fingertip grip: Fabal Black Hammer

[@blazemgxtp9503]

First ball Black n Green twist i guess it was conventional but it stayed at first knuckle

[@andrewshunkwiler5182]

it'd be interesting to see the difference for 2 hand bowlers. I use conventional grip, but sometimes only put my fingers in to the first knuckle if I want to get my hand more around the ball and create some extra revs. It's sometimes nice to have the option to make that adjustment since the span difference isn't an issue for 2 handers

[@scotmcpherson]

If yer a two hand bowler, does it matter how it's drilled? You don't have a thumbhole anyway, and I would think you could just choose to put your fingers into the 1st or second knuckle...I mean maybe that's not best, but I would think it's still versatile in that manner.

[@andrewshunkwiler5182]

@@scotmcpherson I've since switched to finger tip and the drilling makes a decent difference in terms of adding revs and consistency. I recommend that over conventional actually now from my own experience so I retract my original comment. Would still be interested in that content though out of curiosity.

[@bam5561]

Interesting how fingertip gives you more revs. For me, I started with fingertip (with grips) for 2h and had about 475 revs. I switched to conventional (with grips) and now have about 540 revs. With conventional I’m able to stay underneath the ball way easier than fingertip.

[@canefan17]

@@bam5561 Just curious, but how does conventional allow you to stay under the ball more?

[@bam5561]

@@canefan17 Its more of a comfort thing for me. Im just able to get more underneath somehow. I have switched to vacus and only go 1.5 knuckle. Now that I am hanging out with more experience bowlers, professionals, and those that have been around the game for a long time (and that actually know their stuff) I now know that fingertip can get you more revs if done right. I was under the impression that the farther underneath the ball you are and the deeper you are, the more revs you can generate. That is true to an extent. Its more involved with the ratio of how fast you can get out of the ball, how effortless, and how underneath you can get. That ratio is different for everyone.

[@xicocoslayzi6427]

My first ball was a C300 Baller drilled 2 fingers with grips.

[@jaxonhensley7651]

I haven’t gotten my own bowling ball but the dude at are pro shop he ordered my a 10lb twist and it is reactive resun

[@atypematics]

awesome video guys, am I one of the few that has the Sarge Easter Grip (Combination of convention and finger tip) 😱

[@thisiswhatyoutubedoes7505]

Just got my first ball ever as a 32 year old. Roto Grip Hustle RIP and needless to say my forearm is a goner for a few days. Working on get the ball to move more than 5 boards lol

[@kenkriehn5979]

There is also a third grip style middle finger tip ring finger conventional. It helps control the amount of hook if you can not throw to the far left or right and want more hook.

[@jrproshop]

That is called sarge

[@robertt9122]

First ball was The Beast, conventional. Then went to an electrify also conventional. Now I have a black widow 2.0 with finger tip. Just got to learn how to throw it 🙃

[@brianchester4218]

used a house brick for 10 years 198 average any where, went fingertip when i bought my first ball an AMMO interesting change with out any coaching took many a year to beat my 198 average but we got there

[@irishchewiegaming]

I just watched this video. Question can you make a revised video for two handed bowlers or no thumb bowlers that are looking at both drilling methods?

[@donovansteiner4891]

First ball was a 14 Ib, blue Tzone, conventional fit, January this year. Now I’m on a Jv collegiate team, using 15 Ib, no thumb, grips, one handed (like my boy TD), and a lot more balls then I ever thought I would need. I’m starting to find out I have the weirdest journey so far lol

[@MikeDCWeld]

I started with a 15 lb purple T-Zone with conventional fit and went up a pound and switched to fingertip, no thumb when I bought my Hustle Camo.

[@shorty808100]

There’s a third drilling option that obscure but used by some people like me it’s call Sarge Easter it’s where you have a fingertip middle finger and your ring finger is a conventional grip with a reverse pitch I use 3/8’s of an inch Mike Fagan uses it, mainly it’s for people with hand or finger injuries like me my ring finger is mangled, they have interchangeable thumb holes as well for multiple balls so you’re thumb hole always feels the same that makes a big difference when changing from one ball to another

[@briansmith4642]

I messed up my right hand ring finger as well knuckle pushed in and fractured between 2nd knuckle and the 3rd pushed in one,I used the Sarge Easter and had a talk with Mike Fagan to ask his advice,he told me to give it a try it might not be effective if not done right,so I gave it a try,this was like almost 4 year ago,my hand feels better now might try finger tip and see how it goes.

[@wisgod]

My first ball was a fingertip AMF Cobra.

[@KGlizzy20]

My very first ball at first conventional and i had three holes because i started off bowling one handed but then i had it fix i filled up the thumb hole and changed to fingertips fit

[@joehoenig7596]

What are your thoughts about intentionally drilling a plastic spare ball conventionally, to avoid strike ball muscle memory or hitting up on the spare ball, which can make it just miss the pin...?

[@MikeDCWeld]

Both of mine are drilled conventional. Both were done by the same pro shop but both were measured for independently of the other so the drillings aren't quite the same.

[@terrijconner]

Brunswick Kingpin drilled fingertip. Lately I feel like sometimes I can’t grip the ball so I’m torn on drilling my new Brunswick Defender…I am senior

[@detsportsfan18]

First ball was a Brunswick Rhino Fingertip, on the advice from the pro shop representative.

[@TheGeniusHaileyPerlstein]

First ball was a twist drilled conventional. Hated it. It was 10 lbs. 16 balls later I have all fingertip. Also 14 lbs. in addition I have the vise IT thumb. They are amazing !definitely recommend for people who are planning to get a lot of balls. This is because you have the same feel and also you don’t have to retape your thumb in each ball hole. It makes it really difficult and inconsistent the way it feels. And you waste a lot of tape!!

[@Raamyeon]

my first. storm tropical surge, fingertip drilled. and sore my finger LOL!

[@dmenacegc]

Hustle pbr fingertip grip for my 1st ball

[@bryanmcfarland2253]

Got. my first ball this week. A Rhino conventional grip. Feels good and i have been working on getting used to it. How does fingertip grip affect finger joint comfort? I feel like it would put more strain on the fingers with positioning. I am still new to this and am in my first league, so im just trying to find what works to get better.

[@alexanderbreen4010]

I still have no idea how Butturf uses conventional grips on your

[@MikeDCWeld]

I have absolutely no issues with switching back and forth between my conventional fit plastic balls and my fingertip fit reactive ball. That may be primarily because I'm a no-thumb bowler, though.

[@enigma8464]

I was first a conventional bowler. i averaged around the 130-140 mark. then my coach told me to experiment with fingertips and that he thought it would be good for me, and it did ok and my average went up to 140-150. a few weeks ago i told him i like the conventional feel a lot more and i had a lot more control around it, so we changed back to conventional and now my average is around 160-170. i get so much hook on the ball, and when the lanes are playing nice i can control it really well

[@Nico10282]

My first ball was a Columbia 300 plastic ball drilled conventional

[@1985supramk2]

I want to know how a dropped ring finger drilling changes your ball roll and if it lowers revs

[@justinkolodziej5695]

First actual drilled ball was a C300 Vector One conventional. I eventually got it redone fingertip and pretty sure it ended up in the trash after some really questionable (now definitely illegal!) ball cleaning advice from a certain PBA legend who briefly had a pro shop...

[@TrashBulldogProductions]

I am now curious as to who was that PSO/PBA player.

[@MrSpunkyTom]

What weight were both the Conventional and Fingertip balls that the guy was comparing? I currently use a Conventional one now but I'm keen to try the Fingertip.

[@skipeiooafricanus6327]

First Ball was The Storm Crux with finger tip grips

[@chasbari]

House balls in pee wees were conventional. Ebonite Tornado was conventional. First fingertip ball was a Columbia Longhorn (1970's) and then a Columbia Titeline. White Dots and Yellow Dots after that. No inserts until 2000.

[@radioman480]

My first ball was a Columbia Yellow Dot drilled finger tip

[@metalgeezerdude]

My first ball was fingertip grip with a Columbia yellow dot. I’m a left-hander. I started bowling in 84. I hand many balls. Mostly the black Hammer. I bowled until 91 and had a 196 league average. I stopped bowling until 2018. Unfortunately, I feel the equipment has passed me by. I can't seem to get back to past success. What also annoys me is watching the PBA these days. Instead of moving the target when the shot changes, you just change balls. The oil patterns are so weird now.

[@jroc1856]

My first ball was Brunswick twist conventional

[@jeffkuipers1030]

my first ball was drilled finger tip

[@retiredslamjamm]

I am 68 and have arthritis in the first knuckle of middle finger. I throw a finger tip now, but it irritates the knuckle. Will going back to conventual help the sore knuckle?