Fire All Coaches & Answering Fan Questions | The Dive

[@RaidenSaya]

Meteos is such a great addition to The Dive! Also, these thumbnails are absolutely amazing!

[@bringthebong]

Thumbnails are great, but I noticed they change them like a day after pretty often… not sure why lol

[@nicoleamer3828]

​@@bringthebongThey do this because the people that watch the video within a day are actual fans that would click on it regardless. Changing it to a different thumbnail might attract different viewers. Mr Beast does this and wants others to follow him bc it works.

[@0973david]

I disagree and that is okay.

[@clintonmallard8447]

@@0973davidhe’s a great replacement for mark man. If you don’t like it don’t listen. Imagine hating a restaurant but still ordering their food just to keep complaining about it.

[@ezellbolian7635]

Meteos has added so much to this show and i really hope yall keep him around.

[@era_s]

"We know what Jensen's been doing with his time off." LMAO

[@luckybychance05]

Context?

[@henryrocks22]

@@luckybychance05he was banned for ddosing by riot a long time ago

[@nickmajora]

He's never gonna live it down.

[@Kaydrel]

⁠@@nickmajoraThere is also another moment that he will never forget… OG fans will remember/know what it is.

[@dking6297a]

I found the T1 interview on this topic insightful. Guma said it's important that you do the play all together, even if it's"wrong"in your pov, trusting that the caller is seeing something they don't. The players that are humble and trust in each other, even though they have different opinions, is a huge strength. Of course it helps if one of them is faker

[@dropthe_mike]

I feel like there is a ton of potential in positional coaching and analysts like Kobe and azael were saying but Meteos is so fantastic on the show for having tons of cred as a veteran pro and no qualms about sticking to what he thinks as the actual player here

[@SoFishtry]

Azael's story about WOW ddosing is such a weird throwback. Sitting at home watching random wow arena streams circa 2013 and ddosing was just a constant reality all the players were super worried about as part of their day to day

[@zackleonard8559]

I watched the Phreak and Meteos episode and it actually got me hooked.

[@nickmajora]

Yep. More Phreak please.

[@JadeHex]

You can kind of see how difficult it would be to be a successful coach when the prevailing mindset amongst pros seems to be "you might be confident in what you're saying but my years of experience says your wrong"

[@Sporkyz74]

Yeah, I felt the same way after watching this video. Meteos complained about the other players not listening to him on Optic but then gives off a really similar energy when it comes to his relationship with coaches.

[@justin9744]

@@Sporkyz74meteos just doesn’t want to be told what to do. He’s wrong though. The best teams in the world prove it. Something he knows nothing about.

[@clintonmallard8447]

Yea he did get screwed around a lot with a bunch of teams in his career so I can see how is very caged up about being told what to do as he has been near the top since season 1 and so definitely has the opinion that 5 pros know more than someone like Tony or LS. But a coach isn’t teaching you how to click a button or bounce a ball they have so many more roles etc which y’all obvs understand. But I don’t think meteos should deserve as much criticism from the hot take

[@LarryNorman-1]

Fantastic episode! I see lots of people crediting Meteos for the quality boost (deserved ofc

[@35dodgerfan]

Love the addition of Meteos to the other two. His experience and views drive really interesting conversation and points from all sides and plays off the talents and styles of Kobe and Azael so well. Love this season of the Dive!

[@Ghisteslohm139]

the back and forth on the coaches discussion was cool. another great episode :)

[@asiyt_]

Meteos's takes are so stuck in 2018 its actually like im watching an old dive from back then haha

[@nebselpam]

Holy shit that Pentagon story is incredible. Leave it up to some young degenerates to try and DDOS the f'n Pentagon lol

[@Oceanatornowk]

I disagree with Meteos about one of his arguments on the difference between traditional sports and e-sports. There absolutely is a huge different at every level of sports. If you try to argue that for example college football is similar enough to professional football you'd be laughed out of the room. Is it more similar than the difference between collegiate e-sports and pro e-sports? Maybe, I can't say. But I find it hard to believe that the discrepancy between pro and non-pro league is so disparate that pro coaches wouldn't improve by building up skills at lower levels.

[@justin9744]

He says quite a bit of things that are provably wrong and yet people just blindly believe him because he says it so confidently.

[@Darkstormsun9865]

Well no shit, the level is completely different, but the game is still the same. The things you practice and perform still work 10-20 years later. In league, entire fundamentals change on yearly basis. Suddenly bot and top lane swap is the best strategy. Double mages are better than having an adc. Suddenly tower plates are buffed and now prioritized or nerfed and ignored. Herald is stronger and more important than dragon. If riot messes with minions again, last hitting and wave manipulation can be different. Riot messes with wards, vision is now different. But in basketball a 3 point shot is forever a 3 point shot. If you practice it from 10 years old, you can still rely on it even when ur 25 and in the NBA. If you practice any champion for 10 years, there are metas where they are absolutely useless. From coaching in collegiate to pro esports, I would say coaching is a lot different cuz how do you even coach your team to be successful against something like JDG. Playing wise I think its easier to adapt than traditional sports.

[@SuperJabberjabber]

I play amateur and unless they’re coaching 750 lp players or above I feel like its a waste of time for the coaches.

[@SDFGH87896]

Yea I don’t think meteos gets the concept a coach on the deepest level

[@116SAMK]

​@@Darkstormsun9865 But you're not comparing the same things -- learning how to shoot 3s in basketball is like learning wave management or warding patterns in league. In the NBA and NFL, overall offensive and defensive strategies change a lot every year as well. For example, in the NFL, pre-snap motion and RPOs really came into their own in recent years, there's also been a transition towards empty backfields and 5-man offensive line fronts. On the defensive side, teams have moved away from cover-3 towards 2-deep. Pretty much everybody agrees that there's two reasons why college players struggle transitioning to the NFL -- one is that the athletes are better, the second is that the game is much more confusing at the pro level. In the NBA it might be harder to see but you have the rise of 5-out offenses, layered pick & roll schemes, switching screens instead of hedging, showing gap help, etc.

[@lizzb1065]

Adding Meteos to this podcast was actual perfection. ❤ Thank you for the continued amazing content!

[@Jeffrey_Tyler]

Meteos: "what if the worst scenario possible was the case every time" 😂😂😂

[@dye-lawn]

Yeah, but Kobe is the one who actually backed that up and said 90% of the time, it's exactly as Meteos says. Of course Azael is right about what a coach could be but it sounds like over 10 years in, it's still almost never ever the case.

[@sandau44]

Meteos' PTSD from his previous coaches must be traumatic af lmao.

[@YDGSmokahontas]

Long time dive and league fan (s3, watched the first dive episode and almost every one). I loved the long back and forth on coaches. Meteos brings a nice former pro aspect and Azael does too for the matter! It's really great to dwell on the nitty gritty regardless of any divisive vibes. Much love, hope to see more.

[@DinoDisguised]

Great episode as always guys! I loved to hear the community questions come back

[@garrettsmelosky5008]

Meteos brings the unique perspective of being a former lol pro which brings so much to the show! Great addition

[@phillipmarathakis5703]

I used to play old Urgot support. The amor shredding, constant poke and eventually swapping positions with a more valuable target was amazing. Another perfect take from Meteos

[@iGreen_]

Thank you for being more mindful of hitting the desk in this episode! My headphone wearing ears appreciate it very much!

[@padzman91]

That intro personifies the statement "Let him cook"

[@rischmoller1]

content machine dude!, the short are amazing too!

[@StarlessSky2000]

Meteos bo2 take was the best argument I have heard for it. Teams already play twice in a double round robin, no one has a problem with them going 1-1 then. Back to back bo1s where each game just goes on the record sounds sweet. Three days of games, 2 “bo2s” on Friday, three on saturday and three on sunday gives each team 4 games a week. Way better than current format.

[@SamFutterman]

I would also say as far as coaching in league goes, Khoma, famously has never gotten out of bronze but has won like 3 championships

[@natecohen1462]

The distrust and lack of respect of coaches in NA is now I believe one of the reasons we will never be good as a region

[@Darkstormsun9865]

Nah bro NA coaches just aren't good. Or better yet, the ORGS aren't good. Part of the reason why LPL has so many worlds caliber teams is because their orgs are environment where good players can play good. In LCS, teams like previous flyquest can fail drastically for no reason. Also teams in the east are supposedly more player driven or possess actual knowledge or vision. A worlds winning coach once came to NA and the team was shocked about how little he actually contributes. If you watched t1's bts videos, their coach for their worlds run basically supported the team. The players supported him and encouraged him more because he was replacing their head coach who quit just before worlds.

[@loganburntitus6948]

And thank all of you involved for the content much appreciated..

[@blueleaftuber]

I love how the thumbnail picture makes sense when listening, meteos dunking on coaches

[@SpiceCh]

I like how you guys touch on the fact that you "don't need to be able to throw a ball into a hoop to know how to play basketball" when there's been a general community sentiment for the past 10 years that anyone who isn't at least challenger shouldn't be allowed to comment on the game, as if game knowledge is the same as ability to execute. I don't think coaches need to be expert players themselves. Frankly, they don't even need to have hands to have a deep understanding of the game. The ability to execute is what the players are for.

[@SpiceCh]

As for coaches disagreeing with players on the best strategy, I think in this environment and especially as a coach, you really have to be open to the ideas of other people and be willing to discuss pros and cons and look at examples with them in order to get everyone on the same page. A pro player is who doesn't agree with the strategy that the coach has laid out can knowingly or unknowingly sabotage the game, and a coach who refuses to listen to better ideas won't be able to push the team to their limits.

[@LargeMcBottoms]

​@SleepyFen Yeah, Meteos comes across as someone that isn't listening to someone else's point, and is actively trying to figure out a rebuttal while the other party is still making their point.

[@CossacksLoL]

Has Meteos played traditional sports with a real coach I wonder? Most of my coaches were not players at a high level but understood the game better than we did. Would assume the same goes for League of Legends outside of NA.

[@Aemulator.]

-Meteos thinks the biggest problem with coaches is having authority over players -Meteos thinks 1 player should have ultimate authority over the rest -Meteos asks hypotheticals about “what would you do if you knew your coach was wrong but the coach and your teammates don’t agree” 😂😂😂😂😂

[@mrboobo3436]

I also don't think Meteos knows anything about traditional pro sports. Saying they never change makes no sense. Every season they change tons based upon rules, strategies, staff, etc. Good coaching and good managers don't need to be as good as their team. Their job is not to play but to give their team the best chances to be the best they can be.

[@LargeMcBottoms]

Meteos take is such an "I have no idea how to lead a group of people towards an idea" take, it's insane.

[@TashiPM]

It sounded like his biggest problem was coaches who sounded like they knew how to play the game but actually didnt… not sure if it was just the authority thing

[@Kyle-nm1kh]

​@TashiPM it's people telling you what's correct when you know it's not correct that he rightfully has issues with

[@skyelamondin841]

Keep in mind Meteos came from an even earlier era of league where coaching was probably worse than it even is today. Of course he’s bias against it. It’s understandable, and his points hold water. I just don’t happen to agree with them

[@OverkillSD]

There's a huge difference between having the mind to do something and having the dexterity to pull it off. Like a good salesperson might be an awful sales manager, and vice versa.

[@patrickdieleman8307]

Another great episode. I currently coach High School eSports and hope to move up to collegiate eventually so I hope Azael is right.

[@Keogh9330]

Listening to pro players takes on coaching just shows that they have never had a decent coach in their lives. Meteos bringing up the idea of "the game changing constantly" as an argument against having a coach is just absurd to me. If anything that's more of a reason to have someone looking at and working on strategies for your team use. Honestly I think the biggest thing from allowing the coaches to be successful is player ego. Everyone thinks they know best when there is almost never one right answer. Not saying bad coaches don't exist, but as a constant coaching is almost always beneficial.

[@ethanp5948]

I want to see Kobe say to meteos "no you're a fucking idiot here's why" one of these times lol it looks like he wants to all the time

[@coryjohnson9728]

Coaches need to be watching lots of league worldwide to study the game and learn what might work for the team. Also, keeping the players focused on winning instead of personal ego related arguments. Moving the mouse well has nothing to do with being good at coaching, and therefore being good at the game will be irrelevant to coaching well in some cases.

[@GahnzNmi]

These thumbnails are pure gold.

[@devocionn]

32:06 T1 players have mentioned a couple of times that this isn’t the case. Faker has briefly mentioned that he got flamed by Keria and that they debate/discuss a lot about the game together.

[@107thFruit]

I competed in Halo competitive circuits for years... We had a coach who stood behind us the whole game and wasn't allowed to look at the feed to cheat just like the players... They kept track of spawn timers and designated targets or called plays. To Meteos' point having a team captain who has the most weight when they make a call is super important because the coach can't stand with them and do that in league. I would be super interested how teams would do if the coach was allowed to stay with the team during the match. Completely different mental game when your coach tells you all to STFU and focus instead of the players spamming go next.

[@armavaren3467]

Love the convo about shaking up the way draft works. I want to see the meta be forced to adapt to a larger chunk of champs being played. Viewers should really make it known that this would be a really fun solution!

[@paxt17]

100% on that urgot opening!

[@MattM284]

Meteos looks like he was a hard teamate XD

[@zackbarbieri2155]

Yo what we really need format wise is 2 regular season round robins: 1 best of two followed by a best of one to tie break

[@xSkwintz]

Meteos makes this show 10x more engaging. I already watched before but having an actual player’s perspective of things is sooooo refreshing

[@winnow1668]

Love to see Meteos get ego checked on the coaching subject 🙏

[@Jeffrey_Tyler]

This is the best iteration of The Dive ever. I loved Phreak, I loved Mark, I loved Jatt, but this lineup is so good. The amount of times Meteos makes Azael legitimately burst out laughing is so fun.

[@iGoValkyrie]

wow i never listen to podcasts but this is starting to become a routine for me. good shit

[@colinhannah3515]

legit such a good discussion about coaching.

[@casterY4SO]

I think Meteos, in this episode, is a perfect example of one of the major flaws I see in pro play when it comes to coaching: the resistance to accepting guidance from someone unless they can essentially prove that they are (or have been recently) at least as good of a player as you or better. Pro players are incredibly set in their ways and it seems pretty clear a lot of the time that they don't think others can help them. I think part of this comes from the fact that, unlike in traditional team sports, most of the players learned everything they know and got to the professional scene without any coaching whatsoever (in the traditional sense). And because of that, it feels like many of them struggle to accept that a coach can help them. I am firmly in the Azael camp where I think a coach doesn't need to be incredible at the game to be knowledgeable and be able to help a team and I also believe they don't need to be coaching on the most micro interactions of the game. A coach who operates in a big picture capacity, acts as a leader when it comes to practice and team dynamics, and is able to employ folks like analysts and position coaches in a way that can improve their team is, in my opinion, the best way a coach can be employed in professional League of Legends. And I think pros need to be open to being a bit more malleable and understand that while they have incredible talents and a wealth of knowledge, it doesn't mean these coaching staffs can't assist them in big ways and open their eyes in and out of game to improve their craft.

[@achroniccarebear7464]

Makes me sad pre-rework Yorick wasn't mentioned in that conversation, give me back my lane bully ghost buddies :(

[@CaliJumper]

23:25 Meteos hits the nail on the head in terms of the solution for adapting to frequent shifts in the meta. And that "someone" he refers to outside of the the players playing as the driving force is an above human level AI of LoL. Having an 'alphastar' equivalent for LoL would be helpful for expanding game knowledge and stimulating higher performance from humans that get their minds expanded to the new found possibilities that lie waiting behind AI breakthroughs within game performance. I think even having games such as LoL becoming a general test for a models intelligence such as is now being used in games like minercraft to demonstrate a models world interaction capability could be meritable.

[@Zhuny_FR]

Fire content 🔥🔥🔥

[@quantumm313]

old urgot was one of my most played champs, it was so fun and interesting to play. i was really sad when they reworked him

[@jessieliew4578]

Can we have URFitational brought back? Maybe during break/gap weeks

[@jshoyinka]

I love these conversations. I hope leadership is watching

[@dillandillan676]

Dream team: Top - Impact Jg - Xmithie Mid - Jojo Adc - Doublelift Supp - Corejj

[@nolandelgado6313]

Ok but like… we kind of play best of 2 already. A double round robin is you playing the other team twice. Having a back to back can be the exact same result. So why not just have best of 2’s?

[@jiboodie5344]

Thank you guys for trying not to hit the mic as much! was really messing with me while wearing heaphones lol

[@lPuffalo]

I'm pretty sure Incarnati0n was jensens reformed name when he was picked up by c9.

[@szabel.]

loved the coaching discussion

[@chadcooley7994]

Great episode

[@F00Lsmack]

For Summer I hope they go one best of one round robin followed by a best of two round robin based on seeding from the first round robin. Consistent broadcast times, more games, no ties and a little bit of adaptation. Can prep the first draft, normal experience second draft. It ends up as a modified best of 3 by the end of the season.

[@TophoriMusic]

I totally agree. I used to be an urgot main.

[@ReaverMoggy]

Guys, it's easy. Lec format but the first single round robin is bo2

[@purplekey9330]

C9 is living proof of the need for coaches. They have some of the lowest coaching staff in the league, and despite their team being full of ace players, theyre stuck in tbe middle of the pack

[@Darkstormsun9865]

Not just A coach but a good coach, like repeared. He's the best example of what a coach can do for a team.

[@Shiby23]

If you wanna try and tie certain champs to certain rolls, give top/mid/bot turret lanes "classes" for lack of a better term. Top is the Tower, mid is the Turret, Bot is the barracks. each champ can have a better efficiency taking down each tower type somewhat incentivizing going in that roll. depending on the wording and how it plays out that could even effect early super minions, better vision from wards if you're winning top lane or bot lane.

[@Sanglant4342]

One of the many problems with Meteos' 5 guys and a dream vision for a team, is that it requires an Organization/Team/Owner to sink millions of dollars into player's salaries, support staff, housing, content, merchandise, and more on the hope some young kid who is amazing at a game he played in his parent's house for years, whom has never had a real job, never been in a position of power or management, can convince 4 other young egomaniacs to work as a team, practice enough, sleep enough, eat right, work out, garner a massive fan base, and win! Yeah good fucking luck on that.

[@kushgrover8154]

Theres been speculation that the DDos attacks are from script makers trying to protest Vanguard from being added, will be interesting to see if they also attack LCS and LEC when we get back and how Riot will handle it

[@zavhyatta9795]

they’re protesting something that ruins them making cheats??? that’s not protesting.

[@kushgrover8154]

@@zavhyatta9795 how else are they gonna make money? they sell cheats so if something prevents them from doing that they are gonna be pissed, this is there way of fighting to prevent the addition, again its speculation as to who is doing it I have no idea if it is the reason

[@botbadger]

Intro convo went hard

[@zachary.t.k]

All of Meteos's arguments are entirely fallacious (i.e. appeal to authority 15:10 & 30:30, slippery slope 18:00, anecdotal evidence 28:35 & 31:20, false cause & hasty generalization 32:02) and Azael handles it beautifully; dismantling them each one by one. It's nice to see people who actually know what they're talking sticking up for coaches. We have to abandon this idea that being good at the game necessarily makes someone a good teacher, trainer, and coach. They are two different (albeit not separate) skill sets.

[@blueleaftuber]

A difference in culture between LCK and lcs coaches is that those coaches are typically managers and definitely a father figure authority with a very strong plan. Edgar, Cvmax, Coach Kim, Kkoma seems pretty chill idk, Daeny. But someone like Zeka is a technical knowledge coach with the analyst expertise. Just some random thoughts

[@SirAstien]

33:10 I miss Old Mordekaiser; Summoning a dragon felt SOOO satisfying

[@beck6036]

I already watched the whole thing what do I do now😢

[@ImAlpine]

I truly love Meteos and very much respect his opinions as both an ex player and just as a mind for the game, but I do feel his coach take is an "old school player" type the that can actually be bad for growth in the sport as a whole. Esports are, like Azael said, in their infancy, and you need o give systems like coaching time to grow. That definitely comes down to coaches actually doing their jobs first, though. I also completely agree with Azael saying that a pipeline for coaching would dramatically improve coaches as a whole. Just because they coach ar lower levels doesn't mean they'll gain nothing. They'll learn to work with personalities and how to adjust to the skill levels of their individual players as well as the constant change of the game I completely agree that coaches in the LCS are NOT doing what they should be right now, but things like temporary coaches are not a sustainable system. Just for reference, the reason I call it an "old school player" take is because you tend to hear a lot of this kind of talk in the NBA as well and that's generally what it's referred to there. I'm not pretending I know more than Meteos in any way. I just think it's a nuanced discussion. Just as an added side point, Fearless draft is awesome. Best of 2 is terrible. I say this as someone who watched BO2 in EU LCS 2016 and those were extremely unsatisfying games to watch, in my opinion. I would potentially stop watching if it went to BO2.

[@TheFoxStalksHisPrey]

1:14:00 sick idea from Meteos

[@tylermarler2232]

All the talk about coaches just brings the TSM Regi memories flooding back. Ran that org into the ground and was delusional the whole time.

[@caiyingwu4643]

Why are matches not played offline?

[@Chyiu]

Azaels jacket goes hard af

[@BelbyB]

Azael shitting on the bo2's but I think unironically tiebreakers just even that out. You just track the match score, placement at the end of the year is based on aggregate match score, and if multiple teams are tied you can do like strength of wins/win timers to break the tie.

[@paragrin8385]

Was really surprised to hear my name on here. ~Chris Tidwell

[@kyleadams4096]

Isaac talking about Swain rework… found the warlock main

[@LoLSimbrah]

To go off of what Meteos is saying about get one player and have him play with his boiz, isn't this what Mad Lions Koi did this split in the LEC with Elyoya? They made it to the finals in their first split together, surprising everyone so definitely seems like its helping prove his point.

[@Deakore]

Potentially ignorant question but is there a reason teams cant use the stage/arena for scrims?

[@josephharty5048]

I think a great person to talk about in the perspective of a coach, is Koma and his career.

[@Tanktaco]

I was wondering how long it'd take to get to coaches with Meteos.

[@himynameismike]

Nothing like waking up and listening to Meaty Toes spicy takes

[@lizzb1065]

It's SO good!! ❤

[@Reia.P]

I think 2023 Worlds T1 somehow accidentally achieved the dream team-coach relationship of both Meteos and Kobe said. After Kim and Daeny, Faker has been vocal for coaches who had a player background. He's also somehow the person to do the intermediate when they had disputes. All the players determine the drafting. Tom does the analysis and prepares game plans, also giving Oner the feedback of jungle pathing and stuff since he was a jungler. Roach was the top lane counterpart of that job.

[@Kurioms]

Azael taking me back.

[@Kurioms]

I was expecting Kobe to say old Mundo.

[@alexhirsch5738]

I disagree with. basically everything Meteos argued in the coaches part of the video. And that's good, I'm glad we can get different opinions

[@bryanpritzl5812]

2015 for sure. I could go out of town wearing my c9 hoodie and I would have so many random people come up and talk to me about league

[@changminsong]

Where is the talk of Peter Dun as a coach?

[@nicholaswilliams3323]

Wait... I knew Meteos (Will Hartman) and Kobe (Sam Hartman-Kenzler) were long lost brothers!

[@Dennis-cl8dh]

I love how its always Azael and Meteos on opposite sides and Kobe playing mediator

[@killeryodellingmonkey4192]

Azael is really good at playing devil's advocate and prompting discussion. Really good to get a more detailed/introspective look at why people think something instead of a random take.

[@Dennis-cl8dh]

@@killeryodellingmonkey4192 yea he really gets into it and helps show all the sides

[@dawsoup]

33:40 old rammus please i miss him so much

[@dangerdev3495]

WAKE UP HONEY NEW DIVE JUST DROPPED

[@severage8790]

Takeaways: - Bo2 would be dope. - Pro players don’t really respect coaches, coaches definitely have a place but not as out-of-game Team Captain. Kobe said it best: to distill large amounts of information into highly useful information for the players for sake of time and perspective. - Azael is pretty much bang-on with all his arguments idealistically, while Meteos’ comments pretty much amount to: “Yeah but coaches kinda suck in reality tho”. - I feel that most people agree with Azael because he makes the most sense, but I think Meteos was describing how it didn’t work in practice without being able to pinpoint exactly why. - DDOSing the Pentagon is a bad idea

[@iN-Mtz]

I also miss the old Urgot, although it feels really weird to say this now since back then literally nobody played him. Despite him being a pretty good counterpick against certain champs.

[@jacktaormino1386]

this had the most respectful arguments ive ever heard it was so refreshing haha if only politics were like this XD

[@TheMarcman77]

Based meteos I miss old urgot