First Look At The Cerwin Vega 12TR Loud Speaker

Another set vintage Cerwin Vega speakers came in for a full restoration. In the video I will go through everything that needs attention in these 12TRs and more.

[@gerrypocha175]

Great Vid! I am glad they are in the right hands! really enjoyed this!

[@SavingVegas]

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it. It's not very often you get to see the step by step work done to your stuff. I'm really excited to get these finished up and hear them sing again.

[@hisWACness]

Having heard some 12TRs, they are on my CV bucket list. I want a set bad!

[@Elektronenregen]

I love how they look. Great design. Had them some time ago.. When I got them, the woofers were missing and I replaced them with some other Cerwin Vega woofers.. maybe the wrong kind.. Can't remember.. But I remember how I searched some replacement woofers. The woofers I put in there got some new spiders and foams (from a repair shop). When the speakers had all parts built in, they weren't as powerfull in the bass as I expected. Maybe the shop had rebuilt the woofers with wrong parts or maybe they even were the wrong woofers. I sold them.. but I wish I didn't 😐. Great to see them in your video!!

[@SavingVegas]

They really are one of their better speakers. Depending on which woofer you used to replace the originals that very well could have been the reason for the issues you were having with the bass response. Each enclosure is designed for best performance depending on the drivers. Also if it was an 8 ohm driver instead of a 4 ohm like the originals that will throw off the crossover point leaving holes in the response. But sometimes we just have to work with what we got and the 122W4 woofers are not as common as others so it would be hard to track down. Glad you enjoyed the vid, many more to come on the restoration on these yet.

[@Elektronenregen]

@@SavingVegas I think I put 122W4 in there, but maybe the new spider was not flexible like the old one. Wonder if the speakers are still around somewhere. I have to search my old harddrives, maybe there are some pictures of the speakers. I look forward to all the videos coming!

[@Shadowban69]

Cool contenet lately broseph. 😎 🔊 🔈

[@SavingVegas]

Glad you're enjoying it, much more to come yet!

[@carmanwilcox5630]

Very cool speakers, I'm looking forward to watching you restore them. It appears they have some similar components to the 417r's.

[@SavingVegas]

Yup same mid and the rear tweeter is the same as the rear tweeter in the 417R.

[@genehammond7239]

First time seeing that model !!!

[@SavingVegas]

They really are something else. I'm looking forward to hearing these babies when they're all finished up. I love working on these vintage CVs.

[@saultrips6730]

i have pd9's they do not have foam surround, better?

[@NATIVESUNSETS65]

The 12TR's are great looking speakers especially when polished up . I've owned many Cerwins over the years the S1's were my favorites ,i was wondering if you've ever worked or restored any of the S1's or S2's i ask because they had the sulfur hexafluoride gas bags inside the cabinets , on one of the Cerwin sites one person said when he had the woofers re-coned the bags had leaked . Do you think this would effect their performance ? I also had the bass excavator for the S' series which i rarely used . Good luck on your 12 TR's restoration .

[@85ZERO17]

HOW DO THE 15TR COMPARE TO SAY THE AT-15

[@jebrehbaker8613]

Looks like a cabinet that could perform well with modern drivers and a real crossover

[@joepasquarello1273]

This is a very good video. I have a pair of 12TR's that I am re-foaming the woofers. All other speakers are running great. These speakers are bulletproof. I use a high quality furniture polish on the cabinet woodwork ant they look great. Something I have been curious about: Currently I run the crossovers at -0- db. I understand that tuning them is based on room acoustics and personal preference. I am happy with the output. My question is that any change in crossover adjustments seem to be barely perceptible. An audiologist told me I have lost high frequency hearing and wonder if that contributes to it. Or is something else amiss? Thanks and keep up the good work.

[@SavingVegas]

When taking measurements of the mid and tweeter on the front baffle I played around with the adjustments quite a bit. Adjusting the tweeter caused a rise in output from around 3kHz to 20kHz so even a loss in hearing at higher frequencies you should still be able to tell the difference. I found they measured the flatest with both the mid and tweeter turned all the way up. They could however need to be cleaned up with Deoxit. If they are dirty or corroded at all it can definitely cause a loss in output.

[@thefamousmisteredsmixshow]

Hey man I love your channel!! I have 3 pair of D9's that are in bad need of refurbishment!! Can I send them to you to get them done? I know the freight would be crazy but thats not a problem cause these bad boys have sentimental value to me that makes them priceless!!

[@SavingVegas]

Well your not wrong about the shipping costs, will most likely be costly. I can restore your speakers for you if you would like. It does take me a bit of time to complete a restoration job, I am not about the quantity of restorations I do, it's all about the quality. I do everything possible to restore them to original or better condition.

[@chrismarkland8904]

I'm the original owner of a MINT CONDITION pair of SE-380's My friend had the D9's and we put them head to head in comparisons many times. We always came to the conclusion that the SE-380's sounded smother and more controlled. I don't see a lot of SE-380's online and was wondering if you have ever heard them? They definitely were very stylish. What does the Vega community think about these models? I almost put them up for sale many times over the years but could not part with them!

[@v12alpine]

I'm curious on your measuring setup. How much do room acoustics matter in a large room with proper gating? Many attempts in REW for a gated response and the freqency response and phase is fine, but spectral decay is always a big mess no matter what I'm measuring.

[@SavingVegas]

I'm not overly familiar with REW so unfortunately I'm not much help to you there. I use the CLIO system, it allows me to gate out reflections by letting me choose the time window of the measurement I want to use. I measure speakers with the mic 1 meter away with the speaker well over 1 meter away from any reflecting surfaces. This allows me to take usually a 5 millisecond measurement without any reflections that aren't coming from the speaker itself.

[@incredifunk]

Sure would have been nice to hear these speakers. Having never seen them before

[@SavingVegas]

Unfortunately at this time they are not in any condition to be used but when they're done I'll have to do a sound demo. I have a pretty decent mic setup now that should work good for this purpose.

[@chrisprice8053]

i have the same set. i got them for $50 . Need re foaming on both woofers and 1 needs a new fuse port put in as it won't screw shut to hold fuse in. Even with all the work the speakers need i felt wort 50 all day. This is the only vid i could find on them as you don't see them for sale on ebay. what dose it cost for re foaming?

[@SavingVegas]

$50 is a great deal for them no doubt. Cost of new foams will very depending on where you are purchasing the foams from or where you take them to be replaced. A new set of foams will run you anywhere from $20 to $30 to purchase and again I can't speak for labour costs as they can very. Definitely worth every penny to get them up and running. Also theres a good chance that the potentiometers will probably need to be cleaned up. Not a hard job just need a can of Deoxit to spray into them from the back and work them back and forth and they should be good to go depending on their condition.

[@lawrence5368]

I bought a pair of these in 1975, that were near new from a university student. He said they were too big for his dorm room. Right from the day I got them, I couldn't find any difference in the sound while playing with the crossovers. About 20 to 25 years ago I had the woofers refoamed and replaced the voice coils. The guy told me because of how they are placed downward, once the foam can't hold the cone in place and starts flopping around, it won't be long before the voice coil is seriously damaged. Today the foam is still holding up well and they sound as fantastic as the day brought them home. I was wondering if you knew how much these would be worth in todays market? If they 're in good working order.

[@Shadowban69]

Around $80

[@csj9619]

Where can I get a (complete) recone kit for a Stroker 12d ?

[@SavingVegas]

You know I don't see the Strokers come in very often. My best guess would be Speaker Exchange. Or you could check out Brew City Audio on Ebay,. If you don't see the kits listed on his seller page you could contact him and ask him because he may have a better idea on where to get them if he doesn't have them.

[@elborgund]

Just wondering. Why use foam surroundings instead of rubber? Rubber would last much better over the years. I have some Patos 500 Lyrics from the late 80S and those are still in perfect condition. Rubber...

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

Why is there an apostrophe on Vegas?

[@SavingVegas]

My answer to that probably makes as much sense as the answer to the question why someone who doesn't like Cerwin Vega speakers watches a KZbin video about a Cerwin Vega speaker lol.

[@peterofenback9263]

I am shocked at the primitiveness of the crossover. It is very likely that the sound of this speaker could be dramatically improved by giving it a proper crossover.

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

Vegas are cheap, what did you expect?

[@SavingVegas]

And that is exactly what will be getting done to these among many other things.

[@FOH3663]

Upon opening my D-5s up back in the 80's, I was surprised to find a direct connection to the 12" woofer ... wide open, zero low pass filtering! At least the amplifier's full damping factor was put into use! No inductive load slowing down the bass.

[@SavingVegas]

Lots of the older models have no filter on the woofer. It's surprising how well some CV woofers roll off but some don't roll off very cleanly, for example the ATW-8 woofer in the AT-8 model is really rough and probably should have been filtered.

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

@@SavingVegas They all should be filtered.

[@na2305]

Did they even have the ability to measure frequency response back then? Seems like all they had was text book calculations back then for the crossovers. I like how you modernize your projects in regard to crossovers and take measurements. I just subscribed.

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

Lol, seriously?

[@na2305]

Whats so funny. If yhey did then great but maybe they didn't with it being over 40yrs ago. I was just curious. So tired of rude snarky people. I'm unsubscriving

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

@@na2305 I had a spectrum analyzer 40 years ago, we didn't rub sticks together to make fire. You must be young and sensitive. Unfortunately, you find no humour when something funny is written or said. Additionally unsubscribing to a channel you're interested in because of "snarky" is something I also find funny.

[@JR-ho5qm]

Interesting design eh! Definitely not a cheap speaker to produce even in the 80s. I bet that woofer was labeled wrong right from the factory? Since the motor and basket was the same they probably ran out and coned it with a red surround instead of blue. I’m looking forward to see how these measure when finished up. 👍🏻

[@SavingVegas]

Yes it definitely would've been an expensive speaker to produce. If I am remembering correctly I think the customer said he paid $800 for them back in 1981, which would be roughly $2800 today. As for the miss matched woofers, this is nothing new with Cerwin Vega. In most of the older speakers they produced you will find lots of variances throughout the model years. They did stuff like this all the time which makes things difficult for me when doing research trying to figure out what is what. I find it neat and interesting eveytime I come across stuff like that.

[@thomaslarsen9867]

Yes when the bass starts rattling, just cranck it up.😂

[@alfredofloress3435]

👍🖐️🇲🇽

[@The-Only-Gubby]

03:42 A-123 ?? thats a R-123 the 12tr has nothing to do with transmissionline. the port act like a tiny horn load. and is used in meny cv models. like S2, 316. 15t. d15ee and meny more.

[@SavingVegas]

I'm just going off of the original "High Fidelity Speaker Systems" brochure from 1979/1980. That brochure has that speaker listed as an A-123 in the "Shelf Speaker Systems" section. I've got nothing else to go off of other than that considering I have not worked on that particular model.

[@The-Only-Gubby]

@@SavingVegas most of the cv data sheets and stuff have fail info and what not. its a jungle.

[@SavingVegas]

Oh yeah

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

Vega woofers fried easily if driven with under powered receivers or amps. Using higher powered amps and they would last forever. I only like the acordian surround drivers which didn't have to be redone every 15 years.

[@SavingVegas]

Woofers will actually handle under powering or clipping from an amplifier quite well. It's the tweeter and midrange that you will most likely damage from under powering. Not saying it can't happen but 9 times out of 10 the tweeter will go first.

[@TeknoLars]

They fry easily because of the insane amount of bad signal you put through a cheap underpowering amp compared to a bigger amp than the speakers can handle, then they get extremely clean signal no matter how much you turn the volume up, until you actually will max them out, just don't buy a cheap amp and expect a speaker to be able to handle it lol

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

@@SavingVegas I've owned reference class gear for 45 years, design and build Home Theaters and can tell you from experimentation, the same woofer for example in the CV SE 380 driven at 400 watts cleanly would play all day, everyday and is still in use 35 years later in a friend's system but the same woofer in another SE 380 blew within 2 weeks being driven slightly into clipping by a flagship Pioneer receiver. The Vega woofers (15") had a modest sized voice coil of 2.05 inches compared to today with double coils and multi layers etc. Additionally they were dental floss thin. Typically the woofer to midrange crossover was quite high compared to today's sensibilities and the mids weren't in very much danger. The SE 380 though, was a sort of CV "audiophile" speaker with a lower crossover point and a felted face but it also used 2 mids so it offset the danger of being overpowered in the midrange.

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

@@TeknoLars No, even driven slightly into clipping for an extended period of time. As I stated I own reference class gear into high six figures. I understand how things work. Back in late '80s I was seeing too many CV woofers being fried and looked into it. Let's be clear here, there was no insanity, Vega woofers in consumer gear didn't take heat very well due to thin smallish voice coils. Today's subwoofer drivers for instance, use much larger coils. Drivers have two overload specs, one being mechanical (xmax), the other being thermal. Thermal was a problem for CV woofers which is ironic when you consider bass is why most people purchased them.

[@TeknoLars]

@@carlosoliveira-rc2xt Yeah honestly, I have AT-10 at this moment, and I already melted one voice coil bc I was putting about 1500 watt through em lmao, but 1 of the original woofers still hasn't burnt yet and has no damage at all, it can handle so much it's honestly insane, compared to how much I get it through lol

[@carlosoliveira-rc2xt]

These speakers weigh 88lbs, why wouldn't you just put them on a bathroom scale?

[@beflabbergasted325]

They are not loudspeakers. They are loud speakers. They are not very "high fidelity". Cerwin Vega`s car subwoofers? Very good. Cerwin Vega`s "hi fi" systems, not really. But, loud, they are.

[@OldPoi77]

ALL wire is OFC otherwise it would just go green and rot away, Its a joke to even mention it.

[@SavingVegas]

All wire is OFC? There are lots of different types of wire. CCA for one which is very common to see because its cheap. Secondly there are different grades of copper wire based off the purity. If it is the fact that I mentioned the "oxygen free" part of it that's just how I say it instead of using the abbreviation. I mention it because copper-clad aluminum is another wire you see used for speaker wire. Your the first person to have a problem with how I say that lol. There's many other things I'm sure that I do differently or wrong that would be worth mentioning more then that.

[@ford1546]

Cerwin vega has NEVER been high-end or extra good sound quality but PATY speakers!

[@envisionelectronics]

Saving Vega’s what? Renaming your channel and branding to something that makes grammatical sense is a first step. It’s not possessive plural. 😂

[@SavingVegas]

Yeah it was a decision I had to make when creating the channel. The proper way made the Vegas look like Las Vegas. As stupid as it may seem at the time I decided to do it this way. Considering I monetized the channel in less than a year and the channel has been pretty successful so far shows that people that are actually interested in the content don't seem to care, well most of them anyways lol. I guess it's a good thing the channel isn't about proper grammar hey?

[@csj9619]

That really bothers you enough to compell you to make sure this guy knows, huh?

[@quartzwatching]

I had two pairs of those, sold the last pair in 1999. It had the crossover redone and ALL cabling changed - eventually sounding very nice, but still being able to literally “explode”. The are no match for my horns, but i still miss them and wouyld buy a pair - if for nothing else, the sentimental value :-)