First time hearing Hurt by Johnny Cash

[@flickeringboxofficial]

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[@p.j.morris]

Trent gave Johnny this song. Trent said i was born to write it Johnny was born to sing it. He gave him this song because he said it's not mine anymore it's Johnny's. My husband interviewed Johnny 2 yrs before his death on our Podcast i will always remember Johnny he was an amazing man. awesome reaction.

[@keith6485]

Reportedly, when he was done recording this, his daughter said "Dad, it sounds like you're saying goodbye". He said "Yes".

[@flickeringboxofficial]

Had not heard that Keith, what a sad moment that had to be.

[@Lunzatis_Palemoon]

@Flickering Box Johnny had been in rough shape for years at that point and had had trouble getting around. It's why you see June, his wife, come down during the video to check on him. Johnny knew his time was coming to an end and so did his family, friends, and fans. At that point, it was a question of when, not if. Some people may consider it sad but I look at the things like if you made it to your 70s or later then you lived a good long life and what more could you ask for? It should be a celebration and reflection on the good times and happiness they made it to that age. Not everyone lives long enough to get to that age.

[@a-6610]

In the interview, they said he responded with "Well maybe I am."

[@impudentdomain]

@@Lunzatis_Palemoon In one way it is a tragedy but in another way how many people do get to say goodbye to all their friends in that way ?

[@ThaOneChrisJONES]

@@Lunzatis_Palemoon But also, it's a double-edged sword.. a long life also brings with it so many regrets, good memories yes but also painful memories, memories of loss.. the grind of life can really make you weary and you can see that weariness in Johnny's whole being ( especially his eyes ).

[@S7GraveDigger]

This wasn't Johnny's "Comeback". THIS was his "Swan Song".

[@proudleaf]

When he closes the piano and looks down at and gently touches it with love, its like he is saying goodbye to his music. Gets me every time

[@glennelfmann3143]

some people have said it's symbolic of closing the lid on a coffin

[@FTamer-bk8jw]

Me too.

[@zachpereira1658]

I heard it’s also cause it’s the last time he ever actually played music, he died 7 months later

[@jayperez955]

Trent Reznor said he was stunned when he heard this version of Hurt. He said Johnny just took the song to a place darker than he could have ever imagined , he also said as far as he was concerned it was no longer his song , it became Johnny's song. Just a completely epic recording ❤

[@-Gax-]

This is one of those songs that causes a healthy 33 year old man to have existential crisis😂 Real talk, though. I need to be better

[@destructyo]

As a huge NIN fan, I really don't like that people have been repeating this to the point that it's now widely considered fact. Trent openly hated the cover the first time he heard it, found it invasive and literally compared it to someone sleeping with his girlfriend. He changed his mind about it when Cash's people sent him the music video and he saw the song in a different context. That's when he famously said "it's not my song anymore," meaning that, when told by Cash and using his life as background, it had taken on a different, just as personal meaning. Not better, DEFINITELY not "darker," just different.

[@destructyo]

@@parallax3d I don't think you read my whole comment. You just repeated what I said. What I took issue with was the original poster's claim (which is a common one) that Trent listened to the song and immediately took to it, which he did not. "It's not my song anymore" is a quote that has been so widely scrubbed of its context by people and misconstrued as Trent saying that Cash's cover has replaced his original. It's artist erasure, and it sucks. Read my comment again - you'll see that we're in complete agreement here about the actual intent of the quote. Also, @jayperez955 saying that Trent thought the cover took the song to "a darker place than he could have imagined" is complete fabrication and honestly incredibly disrespectful to a man who was writing about his experiences with alienation, addiction and suicidal thoughts.

[@winittiwary7893]

@@destructyo And in addition, he makes it his own song, when he changed the line crown of shit to crown of thorns (so it is not true, that he kept the lyrics original) from a Heroin addict, to a twitched story of Jesus and himself, which is also reflect in the visuals of the video

[@lawrencefine5020]

First time I saw this I went through a half box of tissues crying like a baby. And I'm a metalhead. Metalheads don't cry. Yeah they do and this one did. Brilliant move on Rick Rubin and Johnny Cash to do this song and video is stunning and goes perfectly with the song. Even Trent Reznor said "It's Johnny's song now, he made it his" Johnny's version of Soundgarden's Rusty Cage is damn good too.

[@chadbennett7873]

Yeah, we do. Nightwish makes me cry frequently. And this does every time I hear it.

[@Bluedruid13]

I still do brother. I have listened to this version thousands of times and the tears flow. And after I started watching the video and learned the stories behind it, it just became even more powerful.

[@robertburns4429]

You and me both brother.

[@impudentdomain]

yeah guy I still cry when I see it, Of course I grew up in the 60's and I always loved Johnny

[@heathen-heart]

I yet again have tears in my eyes right now. And I have watched this video dozens of times. And I listen to death metal, black metal, etc

[@clasmaster1471]

The song is just extremely real and makes everyone reflect on their own lives and we can all relate to loss and regret and pain and fear. And you realize when you get to the point where Johnny was none of this stuff matters, all these possessions do nothing for me when I am sick and I am lonely and I am hurting and I am regretting it is an empire of dirt the only thing that is important is your relationship with your self your God, your family and your Friends. So as a grown ass man I cry every time I watch this video. RIP Johnny Cash

[@flickeringboxofficial]

Well said Clasmaster, well said!

[@LoveBandit1000]

When he says "if I could start again, a million miles away" the tears flow everytime...

[@michaelallen434]

I grew up on Johnny cash and when tis came out it hit like a ton of bricks. It still does.

[@flickeringboxofficial]

Got me at the end of the reaction, tried to fight it but couldn't.

[@Charly_Dont_Surf]

Same

[@Masterfrogg]

Without question the greatest example of a "swan song" ever. And what a song at that. How lucky we are to have gotten to listen Cash's singing and there is no doubt that they will be remembered forever.

[@jasonsomething6003]

Young people keeping older artists alive is simply so awesome.......... LOVED the reaction!!!!!!! peace

[@michaelanderson4394]

I tear up every time I watch this video. I thinks it’s the most powerful song(Johnnys version) ever written. So much emotion

[@russellhamilton8903]

Hopefully you will do Trent's original version now. You hear the real 'hurt', pain and anger in his voice of a young man who is controlled by his addiction and can't turn the balance of control. Johnny's version is as an auld man near the end of his life reflecting on what had been. Both are SO powerful in different meanings. Both bring me to tears every time I hear them. Thank you fir doing it. Love from Northern Ireland 🤘🏻🇬🇧🖤

[@OllieScambaiter]

Would also like to see a reaction to the original (although the narrative weight is always lessened without having first gone through the Downward Spiral concept in full). I still prefer the NIN original as I find a lot of the impact of the Cash cover is found in the video more than the performance.

[@Malzarius85]

I grew up a nins fan it's sad to me so many credit this song to cash. They are both good but this meant a lot to me growing up and thanks to Trent for this masterpiece as Ollie said it was the end of the downward spiral even if I played this on repeat and my younger brother hated me for it

[@kylepreston7344]

The realization that we're not immortal is a bitter pill to swallow and it's not really until we've lived most of our life that we learn to appreciate the memories we've accumulated. Thanks for this reaction, so good.

[@nwslimbubba]

😢everytime I here this song I just can not hold it together. It's so powerful.

[@flickeringboxofficial]

And the scene at the end when he closes the piano is brilliant and so sad.

[@rickwelch8464]

This song is powerful on it's own. When you've already heard the NIN version it makes it miles better.

[@jonbrooks6307]

Johnny closing the piano was him saying his goodbyes to the world rip Johnny cash 🙏🙏

[@christopherking4932]

It was a one of kind goodbye.

[@jonbrooks6307]

@@christopherking4932 it truly was

[@flickeringboxofficial]

One of the most powerful silent scenes I know of. You feel the weight of the moment.

[@jonbrooks6307]

@@flickeringboxofficial you do because Johnny was one of a kind he was a great proformer

[@rickcain4736]

that final scene hits hard...It's as if a coffin was being closed for a final time...

[@OldBoiler62]

My faather was 100 when he passed a few years ago and the first time I saw this video I was struck by how much my father and Johnny looked like each other towards the end right down to when Johnny closed the cover on his piano and rubbed hands across it. My father used to do the same thing with his organ.

[@richardhargrave6082]

Its so powerful and moving, I cry every time. That single piano note is awesome, its amazing

[@dantorrez2]

Absolutely love Johnny Cash’s version of Hurt. Nothing bad against NINs, I love them. It’s just Johnny Cash’s hits different. Can’t wait for you to do Shinedown and Simple Man. It’s not just a cover either, there’s a story there. History. Can’t wait. Keep up the amazing work!!!

[@flickeringboxofficial]

Thank you Daniel! I love the Shinedown version but didn't know there was a story behind it. Now you have peaked my interest. I will have to look that one up, thank you brother.

[@bamachine]

While I like the Shinedown cover, it is not on the same level as Cash with Hurt. I think Cash's version is the superior one, whereas I am not sure anyone can top the original version of Simple Man. To me there are three levels of great covers(the bad ones need not be classified, they are all worthless, IMO). There is the great but not as great, Shinedown's version of Simple Man fits that for me, also the Heart version of Stairway To Heaven, performance at the Kennedy Center Honors for LZ fits this also. There is the just as great but done differently, Disturbed's cover of Sound of Silence fits this for me. Then there is the cover that transcends the original, Cash's Hurt does this for me.

[@Justin_Dykes]

CASH definitely made this his own and he owns it..... Cash sings is with extreme conviction and the imagery in the video is stellar....What a great version..... And I'm a huge Trent Reznor fan (Cleveland Ohio boy).... Another great version is Reznor and Bowie (which was a great tour as well).....

[@rafalmeidas]

When I bought the CD with this song it had just came out and back then my dad was in his 70's, big Johnny Cash fan his whole life and being here in Mexico and a man of the last century he wasn't aware of the new stuff in the world all the time. When I heard this song immediately thought of him and at first I didn't want to show it to him because eventhough he was the best father any son would want and he didn't do bad things to regret but I knew he would think of what else he would have wanted to give us as a family. Powerful song. I did play the entire CD to him, he watched the video and he liked it a lot. Thank you dad for being who made me love music this much. I know you know wherever you are.

[@MYJ61]

This has to be one of the greatest song ever. Taking his life into account, how he lived, the emotion in his voice, in his eyes, like he knows something we don’t. As great as Trent’s version is, this is on another level.

[@johnmichie8411]

He never played the piano again after this, powerful emotion stirring song. Makes the hairs on my arms stand straight each time. God love you JC.

[@Diecastclassicist]

The more you know about Cash’s life, the more heartbreaking the video is.

[@3dpooltile829]

His wife June was the lady standing on the stairs while he was singing. The picture on the wall behind him is his late mother.

[@chrisking6667]

When the guy who actually wrote the song says "Everything I wanted to express with the words he made clear, it's not my song anymore it's his song"....

[@JeffreyDawsonSemperSermo]

I still can't listen to this song without crying. Its just so moving.

[@clasmaster1471]

Man in Black and a boy named Sue are awesome ones to do!

[@flickeringboxofficial]

Boy named sue, Ira Hayes and Busted are 3 I would love to do if she doesn't know them.

[@mickeykmiller]

Thanks for not pausing!

[@flickeringboxofficial]

not intentional but glad it worked out like that for this one.

[@evilTaker90V2]

This was such a powerful performance that Nine Inch Nails, the band that made the original song, declared that it’s Johnny’s song now

[@Lunzatis_Palemoon]

Trent's version is from the view of a young man fighting with addiction and how it has wrecked his life. Johnny's version is from the view of that same man decades later at the end reflecting on his life. Realizing all the mistakes he made throughout his life but understanding that those mistakes were part of the journey and what ended up making him who he was.

[@flickeringboxofficial]

Well said Lunzatis, great synopsis.

[@a-6610]

Most people don't realize that Cash lived the Rockstar live before it existed. He fought his battles with addiction, too!

[@Lunzatis_Palemoon]

@@a-6610 I don't think it's that they don't realize it as much as they don't know enough about Johnny. Johnny was very public about his issues with addiction and drugs. I think the Country Music category gives people misconceptions about the artists. The Gatekeepers of the Country Music Industry have always tried to make sure it has a certain reputation upheld. Those who don't really listen to Country Music don't realize this, but those of us who grew up with it have known about it the majority of our lives.

[@Marshall-h4d]

Wow I'm a huge Johnny Cash fan and I love this song... right there at the end of the song it's like he's saying goodby and thank you to the piano when he closes it

[@aaronrice4607]

This is the most powerful music video ever made. Stunning.

[@raymo6795]

...so powerfull...John cared about about June more than anything else...always gives me a tear or two

[@davebrowne8252]

Thanks both. Just thank you.

[@shadmccarty3452]

It was reported that the scene at the end of Cash playing the piano and then closing it, was the very last time he ever played the piano. I truly believe that this was him saying goodbye to the masses that he couldn't speak to personally. An amazing storyteller voice to begin with, but with the aged tone, it made it more powerful!

[@OneThousandHomoDJs]

They played this one time at my church. Just showed the video in its entirety and talked about it afterward. I was one of maybe 2 or 3 people in the crowd who knew what was about to happen..........

[@flickeringboxofficial]

That is amazing, that had to be a sight

[@synthetic240]

Seems kind of ironic when Nine Inch Nails has a song titled Heresy and sings about how "God is dead". There's also Head Like a Hole where he sings about the hypocrisy of "God-money".

[@sopronunciareglignocchi7255]

​@@synthetic240 Not really. People of opposing beliefs can still find common ground and similarities between them.

[@christopherking4932]

Literally makes me cry every single time I hear it.

[@flickeringboxofficial]

Me too Christopher, I didn't break completely at the end but had a few sneak out.

[@christopherking4932]

@@flickeringboxofficial and I heard Trent was so moved by Johnny's rendition of hurt, he said its now Johnny's song.

[@davidkilby1043]

Me too

[@TobyCatVA]

@@christopherking4932 I saw that interview.

[@christopherking4932]

@@TobyCatVA oh ok, I wasn't hundred percent sure, but pretty sure I heard that.

[@ldavies3280]

Dammit. Am I ever going to get to the end of this song without sobbing like a baby.

[@KellyMurphy]

When I first saw this video I said, This is Johnny saying goodbye with the closing of the piano. A few months later he passed away.

[@PriestessOfNothing]

That song still crushes me 20 years later. Because we ALL knew he was close to being gone. And I never listened to much Johnny Cash, but I still respected him, because he was Johnny Cash. And he was saying goodbye to the world with this song I knew in a completely different way. I think it's a great compliment to both men, for the different directions they could both take the same song. And even Trent said it wasn't his song anymore, it was Johnny's.

[@andychristensen2947]

I usually hold up until that look down at him from June Carter Cash, then I am done. 100% done. Whatever is left in my black little heart is shattered, just at her looking at him.

[@PriestessOfNothing]

@Andy Christensen that's it for me too. She was heartbroken, honestly she looked like she didn't want to be there. I can't blame her.

[@caretaker158]

The look that June gives him as she's gazing down.... gets me every daggone time! Especially considering that she was gone not long after, and then he followed her four months later.

[@x2b1800]

Probably the most powerful piece of media ever created.

[@ElizasGrammy]

Watching him close the piano lid is like watching him die. 😔

[@flickeringboxofficial]

Yes indeed Eliza, the dead silence as he does it is so emotional and heavy

[@traviscrockett3640]

Yea. Trent has said many times in interviews that the song is no longer his. Great respect. When I die 3 John’s I want to meet are John the Baptist john Wayne and Johnny Cash😊

[@flickeringboxofficial]

That is a great 3 Travis! Never knew Trent said that, how cool.

[@genghisgalahad8465]

The best way to experience this rendition by Johnny Cash is his song with his video! I thought the titlw was just "hearing" although no doubt just hearing this song is already so emotional, the imagery is so man

[@randalthor1955]

It took me watching it about 50 times to overcome the feelings and watch it without bringing tears to my eyes. Now I feel I have spoilt it. I will need to pause for a while.

[@deichkucker]

With this video, which was also Johnny's last before he withdrew from music completely and unfortunately died in 2003, Johnny tried to reflect on his own life, in contrast to the original. It reflects the early days of his career, as well as its sometimes difficult course. The video also makes it clear that everything is temporary and that money and fame cannot replace health. This becomes particularly clear in the video when he, almost alone in an armchair, reflects on his life, while his wife June Carter Cash listens to him from the stairs and has to realize helplessly, almost pitifully, that the time to say goodbye will soon come . The last scene in the video is intended to symbolize the end. The end of saying goodbye to his fans as well as the end of earthly existence. He closes the coffin lid himself... Rest in Peace, great Man in Black. I am proud to have seen you live in 1982. I will always carry this gift in my heart...

[@macPles]

I believe once Trent Reznor heard this he said that this is Johnny's song

[@jameskinzel8558]

When Trent Reznor heard Johnny sing his song he told Johnny it was his song now.

[@stephenryan1912]

I need to point out, a twenty something year old man wrote this, and the pain he was in at the time, is serious and dark. Johnny Cash just happened to have lived the full life that the lyrics hit harder. Even Trent saw it, and said its his song now.

[@MacPro8CoreMan]

The greatest cover of all time!

[@r3ddirtr8r28]

If you can watch this without tearing up, you are indeed a cold fish.

[@davidphillips4476]

That is the pure power of music rolled into that performance, whew...got me kinda teary.

[@DonLuc23]

The closing of the piano reminds me of old folks caressing a coffin of a loved one, same hand actions.

[@Hobodeluxe960]

this was John's goodbye letter to June asking forgiveness for all he put her through. They were both dying, June was first just after this song released and John not long after that.

[@robperry5293]

From what I heard when Johnny closed his piano at the end of the video, he never opened it again.

[@marlinblack6597]

I'm 58 and know the torrid life of the man in black. This always make choke and tear up. It is so moving. He was one of my father's favorite singers.

[@PhuVet]

He knew he was dying when he did the song. He didn't tell anyone until the end.

[@eglin32]

So powerful as was your reaction thankyou Mr Cash

[@RDRussell2]

You explain how this song "... hits me in a different way..." than when you first heard it. To me, that's one of the defining parameters of what makes something a work of art. All of the greatest masterpieces, from music to books to film to poetry and so on-they all linger with you, change with you, grow with you.

[@kingawesomosity6585]

So I just found your channel this morning and spent 5 hours watching all the videos in chronological order. It is great to see reactions from people who love music and not just looking for views. Since you have such a wide range of musical interests, as I do, I was hoping you would do a video on the song Already Over by the Christian metal band "Red." Love what you're doing and keep up the good work.

[@vaughnnewman8903]

Probably the most powerful video I've ever seen (and I was young when MTV went live). Trent created a very personal, amazing song. Rick Rubin borrowed it and lent it to Johnny to cover. An amazing and extremely powerful song and video that Trent admits is no longer his song, but will always be Johnny's. Props to Alexis for knowing Johnny Cash but also reeling off some of his songs- impressive. Check out NIN's The Fragile and With Teeth- you won't be sorry.

[@stevieraygaatjeniksaan4315]

I love the reaction of nine inch nails the original artist behind the song. He said its not out song anynore wow!!

[@christopherhuot2826]

JOHNNY Transcended music!!!😊

[@DavidK-hx6gn]

I could watch this video at least a thousand more times and still tear up 😢😎

[@cosmyccowboy]

Sitting at the head of the table with an immense feast all laid out in front of him… all alone!

[@gravehammer3545]

Great remake. Johnny was one of a kind

[@Tar-Numendil]

I was 4 when this song came out, but I grew up with it.

[@CanadaDan]

This songs chokes me up every time

[@christophermckinney3924]

And shortly after he died. What a great exit.

[@ralphanderson3316]

Truly moving goodbye song by an American Icon. Thanks for the tribute. I cried , I relate. I am also dying and know it. I spend my last days on earth loving my family and the short time we have left together. God Bless you.

[@flickeringboxofficial]

Can you please email me at [e-mail]

[@Cafeman_2D]

For us of a certain age , this is a powerful song

[@gokedik]

I think Trent said that this was Johnny song, now. Super emotional. Love you two.

[@JamesDavis-sh9gh]

Trent Resnor has gone to become an Oscar winning composer for The Social Network and Soul.

[@Staggercfc]

I think both of you were in a state of genuine enthrallment watching this : both your blink-counts were very, very low. Eyes wide open almost throughout. Only towards the end did you, Burch, blink regularly. It's testament to your feelings, both of you, that you reacted in this way. It's an incredible song from Johnny. Thanks for your reactions x

[@embraceyourweirdness70]

Even Trent Reznor said it was Johnny's song now. The only line that changed was when Johnny sang "I wear this crown of thorns", Trent sang "I wear this crown of sh*t". Naturally Johnny changed it. I love NIN, but this is the best version by far...

[@generic53]

"Do you know Nine Inch Nails?" "No." Me: I feel old now......

[@maineman9447]

Brilliant, sad, and great. Nailed it.

[@davidkilby1043]

This one hits really hard

[@flickeringboxofficial]

Yes it does David, I was so glad Alexis hadn't heard it before. I knew it would be something special.

[@Peter-oh3hc]

I love this song and video, but I can't imagine calling in to request this on the radio

[@Peter-oh3hc]

@@RayfordRaySiegel it just makes me so sad and I wouldn't want to do that to orhers. I would not request strange fruit or where were you when the world stopped turning (except on 9/11). Just me.

[@evhleppard]

This version blew me away when I first seen it. Johnny took it to a whole new level.

[@generic53]

"You can have it all. My empire of dirt." Money and fame don't mean ANYTHING in the end.

[@terryvittitow6362]

To really understand the impact of this song and Johnny Cash singing it and the video, you should read all about Johnny Cash's life from boyhood growing up in Arkansas until his death in Tennessee.

[@bobbyj5375]

had heard he covered this song but never actually listened to it. Was i ever missing out. Johnny cash has such a unique voice,i can't think of someone who sounds like him. Enjoy your pick, like alexis i may not of listened to it till (who knows when) . burch ,great info again, (as always)..... thanks bunch... next time.

[@waskier4842]

She MUST be filled in on all the nuances of this video. "The meddle tears a hole. The old familiar sting." is all about johnnys addictions fights. June standing on the stairs behind and above johnny as if watching over him from "Above" filmed days before she passed, as if knowing she would die SOON. The house he was born in. His suicide attempts. ALL and more addressed in depth in this video. DEEP!!!

[@hengineer]

Needle

[@StevenHughes-hr5hp]

In his case a double meaning. His addictions earlier in his life and the needles he was forced to accept during his last battle. He and June both knew they were on their way out at the time.

[@John_Krone]

Love the reaction. Could feel Alexis wanted to cry. Here too. Sad video. Subscribed

[@lxwood505]

That my friends is what music was all about and should be all about.

[@ian_forbes]

This is a truly moving and amazing version of the song, but I wouldn’t say ‘better’ than Trent did with the original. The song takes on a different meaning depending on your connection to NIN, to addiction, to where you were in life when each version entered your life. For me, the NIN version is the one that will be forever tied to some core feelings and memories … even as Cash delivers this remarkable performance and has made the song his own.

[@DougBrown-h1n]

To me it's as if someone accidentally wrote Johnny Cash's own confessional epitaph so perfectly for him, that he just had to sing it.

[@solid4brewing]

I love how he closes the piano in the end, it feels like he's closing the Johnny Cash saga in some way.

[@kyleteal5888]

I believe this was his last performance all together. No concerts no live appearances, nothing else. This was his last piece of work, RIP Johnny and June.😢

[@TimothySmiths]

I am sure someone else has mentioned it but there was a lyric change between the two, Johnny didn't want to sing the original line Crown of Sh*t and changed it to Crown of Thorns. Everytime i see the video , tears, and sometimes when just listening to the song.

[@JChelsea91]

It’s like the original performer wrote the song for Johnny 😢 I bet it was very therapeutic for him to sing knowing how hard his life was. ❤

[@rmweidner7596]

Trent Reznor has commented in multiple interviews that he wasn't sure what was going to happen when he was asked to approve Johnny Cash performing "Hurt", but he was honored so he gave his approval. Then he was given a copy of the song, and he was not a fan of Johnny's version - but that was more to do with not being able to relate it to his original meaning of the song. Then he was given the video, and it all made sense. That's when he realized that his song was now Johnny's. ...you're right, though, that it in no way invalidates or lessens the original version of the song. It's one song, but it is able to encapsulate two entirely different issues and stages of life.

[@Tar-Numendil]

Trent Reznor himself said this isn't his song anymore, it's Johnny's.

[@JoeScheu-zp2jn]

I love the banter between you two. Don’t stop talking. This song gets me every time as well.

[@adamdunbar8260]

The smashed record is heart breaking. Johnny was with Columbia records almost from the jump. They dropped him without telling him. He never forgot, he never forgave them. It was close to fifty years on one label.

[@BrianJoergens]

It definitely hits different 20 years later. Thanks for the reaction and the discussion