[TF2] Just What Exactly is Wrong With Sniper? - A Balance Discussion

[@UncleDane]

The main issue I have with Sniper is that his counter-play is practically non-existent when the Sniper is good enough due to the amount of damage a quickscope does. Quickscoping is the most powerful thing in a Sniper's arsenal by far. It's one thing to be able to use your map knowledge to stare down a chokepoint or a shutter door, but that's basically optional when you can just go from walking, jumping, and looking around to doing 150 damage at any range in less than a second. Most skilled Sniper players don't bother scoping in until they see their target, making the whole "tunnel vision" downside obsolete. Most skilled Sniper would rather go for two consecutive quickscopes than to give up their awareness to fully charge a shot on a full-health Heavy. It's not uncommon to walk around a corner, see an unscoped Sniper, and then instantly die. I personally don't think that's fair or fun to fight against. I also think it's interesting how this subject is suddenly becoming a hot topic after so long. Likely because the cheater infestation has made more people hyper aware of Sniper's power.

[@g2ltt733]

Thanks you Ankle dan!

[@ade5324]

thats a lot of text uncle dan. imma read it tomorow (: good night uncle sam.

[@someidiot3826]

engineer gaming hello

[@putalittlemustardonit]

They actually have a system in-game to prevent full damage quickscopes, but Valve made the timer wayyy too low (0.20 seconds). For context, 0.20 seconds is less time than it takes to blink.

[@fishstickonastick-gaming]

I generally agree which is why I'm fine with having quickscope speed reduced to an extent, and why I think there should be more of a punishment for Snipers missing their shots. Throwing a few shots a Sniper's way with hitscan is a good way to throw off his aim, but this is usually only useful for crossing a sightline, or sometimes forcing a retreat because what are you going to do, run him out of all of his bullets? He's going to hit you eventually, especially since you have to reload and he doesn't. That's why I think my clip idea really helps out interactions like these by giving you more options, now if you manage to throw off all four of his shots, you can actually safely close the distance on him to just kill him instead of crossing the sightline, going about your business and pretending the Sniper doesn't exist. And a slightly slower quickscope would actually make this process a lot easier since you can time your shots perfectly to throw off his aim at the right time without needing godlike timing. Also, I'm not even sure if the bot crisis is the entire reason behind the Sniper debate because we've had Sniper cheaters getting gud and getting Lmaobox since forever. I think most people are aware enough to know that bots, as stupid as they are, surpass the skill limits of any human and aren't meant to be considered valid in terms of game balance. Honestly, I think it's because SoundSmith mentioned how strong Sniper is a couple of times because I hear the "hitscan instakill from across the map" line that he mentioned repeated verbatim several times in my comments.

[@kingbump6829]

I remember reading somewhere that "Sniper wasn't designed with >1000 hours of practice in mind" and I think that sums up a lot of the problems people have. Well, that and cheats.

[@orange0666]

Honestly, I don't know if any class was. For example, I think the reason why Spy is often considered the weakest class is because Spy's strengths rely on his enemy not being aware of him. That was fine over a decade ago, when people still had trouble hearing cloaks and seeing through disguises but today? Most players know his tricks, and the ones who don't learn very quickly. He wasn't designed with the game having veteran syndrome in mind and that's what makes him so weak.

[@carbon8ed]

@@orange0666 The point is that it's irrelevant how good you get at all the other classes, there is always a hard cap on how effective you can be, and there is always something that can shut you down. It doesn't matter how good you get at scout, you can't contest a sentry gun. It doesn't matter how good you get at demo, your weapons are all projectiles and can be dodged. It doesn't matter how good you are at rocket jumping, a heavy can always just shut you down. As sniper, there is nothing like that for you aside from an uber charge. You eventually get so good at sniper that you negate your counterplay because you can just kill it in one shot every time. It shouldn't be possible for a class to overcome any of its core weaknesses through any amount of skill, no matter how difficult it is.

[@beautifulnova6088]

@@carbon8ed Scouts can actually circle strafe to take out sentries since they take time to rotate. Damn hard to pull off though.

[@carbon8ed]

@@beautifulnova6088 That's a fringe case. Exceptions to rules always exist.

[@kubsons0732]

@@carbon8ed i just want the pre-nerf ambassador to fuck with snipers.

[@Yuschmuhck]

What makes sniper a pain to balance is one simple fact: he's a long range specialist in a game where every other class excels at close to mid range.

[@ninja6245-real]

Well... pyro is pretty good at killing snipers.

[@skipperg4436]

@@ninja6245-real everybody is good at killing bad snipers. Bad snipers are not a problem though.

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

@@ninja6245-real darwins danger shield

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

they just didnt bother, at all. valve added crutches for sniper against his counters and a weapon that encourages selfish use of the jarate, running at enemies like an idiot, and getting crits for it.

[@taxevasion6309]

@@ninja6245-real Even without the Darwin's, hitting anything other than the Scorch Shot at that range tends to be incredibly difficult because the Sniper has ages to see the projectile coming and just sidestep; and it's also really risky because he can quickscope you faster than the flare can reach him.

[@limbus66]

I feel like they got the huntsman and rifle ammo count backwards. The huntsman’s low ammo count forces you to stay in range of an ammo box or dispenser, even though it’s meant to make the sniper more of an aggressive frontliner.

[@sev1120]

Hell, sniper's model only has space for him to carry about 8-12 bullets anyway

[@DropsOfMars]

I actually think the ammo for the huntsman is perfect, You're inclined to play more aggressively, but you have to make your shots count-- in that way, huntsman is still a lot like its more long-range contemporaries, rewarding good aim above all else.

[@limbus66]

@@DropsOfMars i don't think that works for the huntsman. in general it's not very good at anything. The projectile flies too slowly to be able to hit anything at long range but it's still got all the other stats of a long range pick weapon, super high damage headshots, really long time between shots, low ammo count etc. they should've given it like half the damage but way faster turnaround between shots, and maybe a 25-50 health increase so you can be more of a frontline picker.

[@ivanyy]

​@@limbus66Still think the Darwin's would be perfect if it just gave you +25 hp and nothing else

[@tobaccomarshall4659]

@@DropsOfMars also prevents the lower skill choke point spamming play style from being viable in every situation

[@rbarua3368]

Before watching the video, I would say that the thing about sniper is that once someone gets good enough at the class, the interactions between them and their enemy becomes more linear. They see you and you die, or you just stay out of their sight.

[@eeeguba432]

Yeah, sniper pros are just...well boring xd a soldier pro will garden you from across the map, a demo will put every nade up your ass, pyro will be a goddamn mirror for projectiles every other class has some sort of flashy way of telling you they are good and you can really tell when they are, sniper is just legit aimbot...thats it, long range huntsman at least requires prediction, here its just an osu player, you just die, you dont even get a cool visual of them kicking you in the ass with stuff you cant complain about, sniper just shoots you from the other side of the map, thats it, there is not even a second shot they need most of the times...

[@rbarua3368]

@@eeeguba432 and another thing, I think that to get to that point as a human sniper still requires a lot of practice. It’s just boring and there is no counterplay at long ranges.

[@Profioffilm]

@@rbarua3368 Well there is a reason why in highlander the only sniper counter is spy or... sniper. Others have to wait for uber or for the enemy sniper to die. He is boring do play against.

[@TheOneWhoHasABadName]

@@Profioffilm in 6v6, someone like a soldier or scout could dive him when he’s out of position that just cannot happen when there is a pocket pyro/engi guarding the sniper, as is often the case in highlander

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

Snipers only fun to play against when hes using the huntsman, then you can actually dodge instead of hoping hes not good enough

[@wuhoh5274]

Whats wrong with sniper is that he pisses too much.

[@Pertsa_]

He's good at pissing people off

[@unluckycatfish6866]

Dont bully him his kidneys are too big

[@laynalazarsnumber1fan]

@@unluckycatfish6866 He should’ve thought about that BEFORE taking those Saxton Hale pills.

[@pringlesingle9748]

nah he took those jarate pills.

[@NKillBruh]

he has an UTI lol

[@ashtongiertz8728]

3:23 sentries have a limited range, an alert noise before they start firing, idle noise to alert attentive players to their existence ahead of time, and a fixed turn speed.

[@aland7234]

While sniper none you see him without any warning except for the dot and your dead and a god sniper doesn’t even scope just quickscopes so 0 alert :)

[@TheCowai]

And Sentries have 100% accuracy. They'll never miss a single shot.

[@phearamax4146]

Plus they can’t move and take a lot of time an effort to set up.

[@beastwarsFTW]

@@TheCowai Ya but they're immobile, have a half a second arming time, and can't fight indirect fire from explosives or flamethrowers.

[@zagrfige]

@@TheCowai It doesn't matter that they won't miss a shot when they can't shoot at all. You can easily get on top of a sentry, spin and it can't shoot you, keep peeking a corner and shoot once each time and it can't shoot you, or take it down from a range and it can't shoot you, or destroy it while it's being built and it can't shoot you.

[@CactusCanon]

“As long as there are two classes in the game, someone is going to want someone nerfed” Great line

[@El.fish.the.chocolate]

This Is a Gold comment in a bucket of hate...

[@Omega-jg4oq]

He wasn’t lying when he said “I have a plan to kill everyone you meet..” lol

[@Lawlz4Dayzz]

Yes but this doesnt justify neglecting to nerf classes going well beyond their role like Sniper. This is why people has kunai and deadringer spy and Wrangler engineer that make Heavy more redundant than he already is by being countered by sniper.

[@vitaliitomas8121]

And when there is only one class, people will be arguing about weapons

[@gavinplatt4245]

I feel like the main cause of frustration is that when you fight a sniper you don't have much control over the outcome. When you fight other classes the fights are longer and it's your skill against theirs, but with sniper it feels like it's only down to how good the sniper is. How well you play doesn't matter when you get instantly killed from across the map. All you can do against some snipers is avoid them. There's a reason hackers and bots favor the sniper.

[@Buglin_Burger7878]

Most people don't realize this, and it makes sniper a lot easier then you think. When the enemy's skill doesn't matter you can focus more on your own. Your loses as a Sniper are your own fault, not your enemy's fault. The enemy didn't win, you messed up. As a sniper in many different games... this is a very nice thing to use for some wins.

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

when you play every other class, you mess up and die, but with sniper there is no risk (other than developing poor self image and dying of boredom)

[@TheNFalcone]

Balance isn't about how frustrating it is necessarily, it's more about how much control something has over the game. In the case of the sniper, a sniper plus a coordinated team is nearly unstoppable unless the enemy sniper is just better. In competitive highlander whole games are decided by the sniper vs. sniper matchup, and that shouldn't be the case

[@natchu96]

The fact that a good sniper behind a coordinated or even halfway decent team can only be stopped by an equally good or better sniper behind their team just results in this situation where the two snipers are just playing their own 1v1 showdown of who can click the other's head first, essentially unimpeded, and the reward for the winner is having free time to delete the literal cannon fodder that is the rest of the enemy team from existence because they have no way of staying in the fight while you're not distracted except by uber. And that is just fundamentally toxic.

[@engihere5434]

@@natchu96 im starting to realize why i just never picked up sniper

[@claymore5347]

That Garand ping idea is actually really good. I like the idea of having an audio cue for sniper, because he's pretty much the only high-damage class that doesn't. Spy has his decloak and heavy his rev. Both let you know when you're in danger, but sniper doesn't really have anything other than, "oh, a gunshot." Also the Garand ping just sounds good.

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

Theres a small dot but snipers can easily hide it

[@EvilRaccoonDM]

W E T P I N G

[@mdbgamer556]

Yes, the Garand ping is nice.

[@seppo3139]

While you are at it put a cow bell on the scout so you hear when he is coming

[@mdbgamer556]

@@seppo3139 Lmao. Good one. Scout is loud enough as is for those that have ears.

[@starmaker75]

Fun fact about the sniper, he actually the second youngest of the mercs, being in mid late 20s to early 30s.

[@pug8714]

And he died first (in the comics) and was revived

[@elfascisto6549]

+Star maker 75 Source ?

[@williamrosenberg8382]

@@elfascisto6549 tf2 website

[@bautistasalomon4319]

Sniper looks and his voice is like he was 45

[@walter1383]

The Australian outback does terrible things to your skin lol.

[@CollinBuckman]

I like the idea of giving him a longer reload, but maybe instead for his default he could actually be animated doing the full reload we see in Meet the Sniper, where he ejects the spent shell and manually puts the next one in.

[@ParaFox404]

the classic one shot breech loading aussie rifle

[@henodude7804]

I agree

[@miguelcandidodemoura9334]

What if? We divide the sniper rifles in two classes: the ones That can headshot and the ones that can charge shots. The ones that can headshot would no longer be able to charge their shots but can still headshot. The ones that can charge shots cannot headshot people but can charge their shots.

[@Cheeseisboss]

@@miguelcandidodemoura9334 they did that with the Sydney sleeper. Nobody uses the Sydney sleeper

[@miguelcandidodemoura9334]

@@Cheeseisboss oh

[@voice6760]

0:43 CMON LET HIM GET THE TAUNT KILL

[@bigbear1045]

yeah, how dare you not let someone finish a taunt kill. I would let that sniper kill the heavy even if the heavy was on my team and the sniper an enemy

[@Spanishdog17]

But muh TEAM WORK!

[@zizo5349]

FSoaS CANCELLED

[@emptychannel4255]

@@bigbear1045 damn right

[@tenacity25]

@@bigbear1045 If that were the case I'd wait for the kill, and then kill the sniper in the lag frames

[@Allison-je9pt]

There should also be a "sniper ahead" voice command so your team knows that if they peek a sightline they will be prepared

[@silverboltscrapper]

so basically what is already present in MvM

[@ИгровойРай-ф9п]

Damn, I remember playing on server, where dude on our team was using SoundPad with CS:GO voicelines. And CS:GO there is a voice lines for spotting sniper (only for bots, tho)

[@ryguy4465]

They could do it overwatch style where if you’re in a sniper’s line of sight your character will automatically say a voice line to the effect of “enemy sniper ahead”

[@PURENT]

@@ryguy4465 Old Call of Duty games had automatic call outs, not sure about new ones. However they were a little too realistic, the factions used their native languages and well if you don't know the language, good luck figuring out what they're saying.

[@commanderdoom9192]

@@PURENT Well, one of the “longer lasting” cod games has it, and it’s relatively modern.

[@aqua2k210]

"It rare for a sniper to go through all of his ammo" You have not seen my aim

[@eldritchtoilets210]

For real he severely under-estimates how bad some of us are out there lol, and I started playing in 2011 xD

[@syweb2]

@@eldritchtoilets210 I don't think so, since he did mention that a lot of these snipers are equivalent to a completely absent player. This is mostly centered around the few good snipers that are the reason so many people are frustrated.

[@thedinkster5772]

Lmao honestly yeah that’s me I always end up going through too many bullets

[@pacifistminigun3987]

bruh that's an achievement using the whole ammo reserve

[@mdbgamer556]

Same :realitymelt: Like, I'm decent, but not as good as I am at other classes.

[@migueeeelet]

I like the idea of a hard reload. I feel that the biggest weakspot for other classes like Soldier and Demo are their massive reload times. In the time a Soldier gets to reload a rocket and fire it for 80 damage, a sniper has already shot someone for 150.

[@TheLegend-oy2sg]

Assuming they get a headshot

[@Appletank8]

Soldier can only do that 80 damage at close range, it’s more like 40 or less since it gets pretty easy dodge at long range. Even with body shots Sniper can do consistent 50 damage at any range.

[@vivelespatat2670]

I'm reposting a comment that goes like this : Sniper is the only class with enough times put into it that can completely nullify its weaknesses and counterplay. Scout, no matter how good you are, a Sentry will ALWAYS crush you. Soldier will ALWAYS have a slow reload speed and massive self-damage risk when shooting someone at close-range, Pyro will ALWAYS have a shorter combat range than any other combat classes in the game, Demo's pills can ALWAYS be dodged and will never reload rapidly, Heavy will ALWAYS be the slowest class in the game, Engineer will ALWAYS needs time and effort spent not fighting in order to create his buildings, Medic will ALWAYS be the weakest at self-defense, Spy will ALWAYS be countered by awareness. Sniper ? It has low mobility, but doesn't matter when you can't even approach him without eating a fat 150. But what about Spy ? Awareness isn't class-limited. Shooting him from far away ? Oh wow, let me deals 3 damage with my shotgun while I eat 150 damage. All other classes counterplay are hard-coded into the game, Scout can't brute force a Sentry unless the Sentry receives fat nerfs or Scout gets access to an item that fully counter buildings. Sniper's main weaknesses can be nullified with enough times put into it, which should NEVER be the case in any games ever.

[@pelinalwhitestrake3367]

@@vivelespatat2670 Exactly. God-level spy or demoman can be countered with enough effort. God-level sniper spreads death to you at any range and always checks flanks so you can't defeat him, unless you're a better sniper.

[@vyor8837]

@@Appletank8 Soldier does 112 damage at point blank range, base damage is 90. 40 is long range directs, 32 is long range splash.

[@LucasTF]

"Sniper has a very similar role and function to a sentry gun" He aimbots

[@pacifistminigun3987]

lmao

[@davisdf3064]

And spins

[@bill-zc1wi]

The funny thing is, a good sniper, can be basically classified as cheating. You can get as good as a bot with 100% aim.

[@pacifistminigun3987]

@@bill-zc1wi true. especially considering how freaking stupid some bots are

[@MemeLord-x7y]

Removes human error

[@elowin1691]

Dying _instantly_ to a threat you aren't even aware of is always going to be incredibly frustrating. At least spy has to get close to you. Sniper can do that from across the map.

[@kirtil5177]

with spies atleast it feels justified that the spy had to put more effort, either pulling off a trickstab or getting you at the right time, when you were too busy shooting at one side.

[@anomalocarislover7254]

I feel like an instant quick scoop should get real close to killing light classes but not instantly. So a sniper might need to charge a bit more to secure a kill. It also prevents you from instantly dying to a sniper in close range even if you had them cornered. This way the sniper’s shots don’t seem as cheap because he had to commit to it.

[@jakman8515]

As a medic main a facestab feels just as maybe even more infuriating than getting headshot

[@kirtil5177]

@@jakman8515 facestabs shouldnt even be possible, but are due to server stuff, so that is why

[@bruschetta7711]

Well you build that awereness throught the games, but i get the frustration when the only optimal counter is the weakest class in the game

[@halfpace1462]

as a salty demo main, i respect scouts because well, they actually put themselves at risk by flanking me, and (this whole comment is based on close range quickscopes and bad maps) seeing a single sniper on turbine means i literally cant play the game. mostly agreed on your points here, finally a not so biased sniper main

[@jveerf8573]

As a scunt main I'm agree.

[@skipperg4436]

He is still very biased: he said that snipers have tunnel vision which is not true (at least for the kind of snipers we are talking about) and he downplayed effectiveness of quickscope at close range. Also he said that snipers can be flanked on good maps... Well on 90% of maps no you can't flank competent sniper especially when their team is not completely retarded. He said that sniper is high risk glass cannon while in fact he is neither.

[@jveerf8573]

@@skipperg4436 as a tf2 player I'm 100% agree.

[@ToyFreddyGaming1987]

@@skipperg4436 as an engi main I agree 101%

[@ZemanTheMighty]

I get sniper gamed daily as a heavy main. See atleast with spy you eventually learn to deal with them and you can get very good at it with practice. But sniper... well apart from crouch jumping there's nothing you can do. You can't pick him off if you see him because heavy isn't supposed to be a long ranged character. You're not mobile enough when you're spun up to move around to dodge the shots and if his team is any good well good luck flanking him with the slowest class in the game. If combat happens within a sniper's sightline and you're playing a good sniper the class is neutered and I usually switch classes at that point.

[@treman722]

I think the big problem in the TF2 balance rn is the always-rising skill floor. Because new players have become sparser and sparser (gee, wonder why), certain classes with a high skill ceiling become more and more powerful. As a Spy main, it's becoming near-impossible to play because playing Spy relies on the people you're playing against not understanding basic cues that a spy is around, or that a player is a spy.

[@notgray88]

Hell I'm a new player and spies are still easy to deal with. If you are playing sniper and see a teammate approaching you, whack them with the kukri a couple times. 50/50 chance you get a free kill

[@Tulip_bip]

It's pretty clear that the Devs just never realised that skill levels would get to this point. Spy is designed to take advantage of awareness, sniper was designed with the expectation that he would miss most of his shots

[@Obi-WanKannabis]

Spy has been a bad class since forever. Everyone spy checks, everyone pays attention to sound cues. It's almost impossible to be a spy and help your team more than if you were playing any other class. Outside of specific situations of course.

[@chuckmann7127]

Another big point of Sniper's power comes down to who he is standing with. If he is besides a Pyro or Engineer, his counters really can't do much and the Sniper can afford to be tunnel visioned.

[@50MonkeyHM]

I mean.. if he's doing anything either than being hard scoped in all of the time, his counters can't do an incredible amount either :/ That, ontop of the fact that he has a "fuck you" secondary for all of his counters isn't good either. (Danger shield for dealing with scorch shot throwing off his aim, cozy camper for rockets/chip damage, razorback for spy, jarate for two of these PLUS everything else.. it isn't great. And the downsides they give are next to nothing. When is a sniper getting overhealed, razorback?!)

[@bucket6988]

@@50MonkeyHM I think all the TF2 devs main sniper, lol

[@ninja6245-real]

Uber charge: am I a joke to you?

[@chuckmann7127]

@@ninja6245-real if your team has to pop Uber just to counter a sniper, then your team is never going to win.

[@galacticgamer6635]

So, in a team based class shooter, you get rewarded for working as a team and covering the weaknesses of your classes. Wow.

[@genghisdingus]

The problem with sniper is he is off playing his own game in the corner. There is no counter-play you can do other than basic random movement and pray to not get headshot. The entire balancing of sniper relies on the player making mistakes and missing shots.

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

you cant put sniper in a close quarters, fast paced game like tf2. it would be nice if he had damage falloff at long range so that he cant stand 5 miles away and go on a killstreak with no risk, plus the fact that he stands far away encourages selfish use of jarate.

[@Aenorial]

Yet there are counter-plays. Spies are the essence of sniper counter-play, sniper is a sniper counter-play and scouts are quite hard to hit if they have proper movement. So Yeah, sniper is a class that has an advantage at long range against 6 of the 9 classes of the game, and yet, I don't feel like he's playing in his corner. Just as spies or engies aren't playing the game in their corner. Throughout the years, I have mained sniper for a long time before switching to spy and then medic, and it just feels to me like a sniper in the game is another parameter you have to take into account when moving arround the map instead of getting tunnel vision on the main fight. It's not like he instantly kills people with a bodyshot like the AWP does in counter strike, you still have to hit small heads in a fast paced shooting game. Of course a skilled sniper is powerful, but so are a skilled scout, a skilled soldier or a skilled spy. And most snipers are not really skilled. So yeah, I agree that some things need to be changed, especially regarding charged bodyshots, but as the video says, sniper is not OP, it's a high skill cap class with high rewards for moderate risks if you're smart enought to have good positionning and can aim decently. Most of what makes it feel OP comes from poor map desing rather than poor class balancing. And to be a little cheeky, I'd tell you that the entire balancing of every class relies on the player making mistakes and missing shots, since you always die due to being caught off guard and not being able to react well enough to survive ;)

[@StarlightTrail3]

@@Aenorial except sniper is the only class who doesn't get punished for missing in most situations. spy is not a real counterplay. If spies can be countered with awareness, and scouts have to go out of their way to over-extend just to deal with one class that is managing to control the entire map, then sniper's only real counter is himself. a lot of "poorly designed maps" wouldn't look so poorly designed if sniper wasn't in the game to begin with. he doesn't fit in. he is what turns certain fun maps into bad ones. if you have to avoid certain maps just so you don't get nullified by one sniper main, i think it's more of a sniper issue.

[@Aenorial]

@@StarlightTrail3 I'm still waiting for a tf2 map that has no walls whatsoever and that is entirely controlled by a sniper. And despite what you seem to be saying, awareness isn't enough to counter spies when you are a sniper. Spies give you a choice : you either focus on picking ennemies off, or focus on not being killed, which limits the numbers of long range picks you can get. And for scouts, it's the same as soldiers, they have the option of extending out to the enemy sniper and beating the shit out of him. Just because most of the action in tf2 is a close range fight doesn't mean any class not jumping in the action and getting up close and personal doesn't fit in. I don't see people complaining about the engineer not playing the game with everyone else despite its ability to lock down an area unless the enemy team goes for a coordinated push. Sniper mains can't "nullify" people on every map, but soldier mains do. A team with a medic will most often than not stomp on a team without a medic. Lots of classes have a huge impact on the game, and sure, being killed from long range may be frustrating, but if you're going to complain that somebody investing time and effort into mastering a class that requires skill to be intimidating can own you, you're just fighting against the nature of video games. And if maps are open to being dominated by a class, that's most definitely a map design issue, because you don't go and create maps for your game before having layed out the different classes. Just as 2fort (one of tf2's most beloved maps) is completely open to being dominated by an engineer without it being an engineer issue.

[@StarlightTrail3]

@@Aenorial Maps with large, long sightlines that contain the objective are dominated by snipers, and there are more of them than I think you'd want to admit. Awareness *is* enough to counter spies, as any class. You can pick enemies off and still check your back. Over-extending is way more risky and doesn't guarantee success. Sniper can stay at long range and instakill enemies at infinite range with no risk while others have to get behind the meat shield before being able to deal with him. Sniper is able to do way more for way less. Engineer actually has class counters and fills his spot as a support role having to juggle all of his buildings and watch over them and risk his life being vulnerable when he's managing his buildings. The only time he's overpowered is when he's using the wrangler or spamming the cart and spawn room with the short circuit. Engineer 'plays the game' and is way more involved than Sniper is. Sniper mains can nullify people on *most* maps. Soldiers can't, unless if you're talking about pubs, then any class can. Soldier, once again, has class counters and is high-risk due to having to trade health and ammo for mobility while jumping straight into enemies to bomb them trying their best to negate fall-off damage. Sniper? He's the one who picks the Medic which you said a team needs in order to stomp the other. I'm not complaining that people are putting time and effort into mastering a class. I'm complaining that such a class even exists in the first place. Sniper isn't even complicated or the hardest to master compared to other classes. In order to be a good sniper, you need good aim and positioning. That's it. Again, Sniper gets way more for way less. Yes. Bad maps exist. Good observation. Too bad a lot of them are bad mostly due to the existence of a class that does not fit into the game. If all the other classes fit in the game and the maps while Sniper doesn't fit in the maps, has no real interaction with any other class and if the only class that can counter him is himself... Sniper is an issue.

[@gamingmoth4542]

I actually like the idea of Sniper having a Garand style reload. Especially once ya realize that his character model actually has Garand Thumb on his right thumb.

[@plbster]

I have no idea how I've never noticed that

[@genericname9919]

​@plbster maybe it's cause you don't really see it in his viewmodel

[@redfox8496]

I do think a simple reload Animation that adds extra time between firing would Balance sniper a lot, but a lot of people are just really biased and only promote deleting the class

[@oscarandreas1431]

i blame the bot crisis for that outlook@@redfox8496

[@henseltbrumbleburg3752]

The problem with sniper is not knowing he's there. With all classes there are ques to listen out for, like spy's cloak or the screams from back stab, the beep of the turret, but with sniper there's just the little laser sight which most hide. I'm really into the idea of making snipers laser more visible like the wrangler laser.

[@notgray88]

Tbis comes down to map knowledge. Snipers typically only get 2-3 viable sightlines per map, so just know the map and assume there's a sniper there already. Tips from a spy main.

[@themilkman6969]

@@notgray88 the issue is that for any class who isn’t specialised in flanking or otherwise non-main objective things, that isn’t an option. any soldier or heavy or pyro or whatever who’s trying to show up to the point is pretty much dead by default.

[@NafedalbiFilms]

10:15 One good thing about this is it doesn't invalidate the "Be Efficient" from Meet the Sniper. And that's good enough for me.

[@tenacity25]

If anything, it encourages it. The sniper player should have to be efficient.

[@mdbgamer556]

Yeah, Idk about you, but where the hell would you carry 26 of those things?

[@chaotik7853]

tbh the 4 round clip just made me imagine the sniper rifle in halo

[@Breakaway-ic5gj]

It makes me smile just to recall that line. Mastapiece

[@Letsanum]

Coming from Destiny, the snipers have visible glint as a way of knowing 'I'm in danger.'

[@TheMikman97]

No point knowing you are in danger if you are dead 0.02 seconds after you find out. Just enough time to realize what's coming and not enough to do anything about it

[@danger2236]

@@TheMikman97 no but something bright might be enough to spot him earlier than you would otherwise

[@lmaobox4068]

@@leonardo9259 Exactly Zesty The "I don't main anyone or have a bias buuuut" (proceeds to rant about how the short circuit and sniper demolish projectile guys) guy THAT guy Zesty

[@ink3487]

Coming from Splatoon the snipers have a extremly clear GLOWING LINE coming from their position and the snipers have a range limiitation.

[@cycy9154]

The snipers in Far Cry New Dawn had pretty much faction (team) colored flashlights shining in the direction of their aim and it balanced how op they were at range since you could spot and focus on them

[@ApexGale]

I had just been talking with friends about how Sniper is one of only two classes that don't need to worry about resource management. Every other class has to make their shots count; Sniper and Medic are the only ones that don't need to care nearly as much

[@PurplePhury3412]

I'd even disagree that Medic doesn't require resource management. Building uber has one of the longest 'cool-downs' in the game and should always be at least the second thing on your mind, behind keeping your teammates alive. The more and more the meter rises, the more pressure there is to be aware of sightlines, spies, and the cover your teammates provide you. Once at 100% you have to play a game of chicken with yourself and decide when you'd get the most out of popping it. Too early and your team cant utilise it, too late and you run the risk of being targeted or wasting time that could be spent building your next uber. In fact, your teammates themselves could be considered a resource you need to manage. If you're too deep in someones pocket to notice your comrades fall around you one by one, you're essentially helping the enemy remove fodder they need to get through to take you out. Overheal caps out and fades away over time so it makes the most sense to keep aware of how everyone around you is doing and do your best to get them to at least base health. He might not require much pure 'skill' in the same way a Soldier or Sniper does, but the moment-to-moment gameplay based on being aware of a large swathe of variables (players) and the uber management game have always - to me - seemed similar to the way an agressive Engie or a good Spy play the game.

[@ApexGale]

@@PurplePhury3412 I meant moreso in terms of primary ammunition lol. A Medic's crossbow is never gonna reach the point where he's low on bolts because he uses the crossbow for a burst of healing and usually from mid-longrange, then returns to using his medigun.

[@LoraLoibu]

@@ApexGale And also he like playing around his team. Where does the team usually conglomerate? The dispenser.

[@ashtongiertz8728]

I mean, health is a resource, and Medic needs to manage that.

[@kuunt6065]

medic is the resource, the team has to maintain him

[@JCBro-yg8vd]

The problem with Sniper is that he's completely independent. All the other classes interact with each other to varying degrees, but the Sniper is an island unto himself.

[@theblakwarior]

Eh, not really. Teamwork is more or less superficial, unless you play comp or sth. So except for on medic, you dont really see the kind of teamwork you see in say csgo. Also sniper needs space. If your team is shit, all of those high value kills dont mean anything in 12v12. You still die to spam and getting run over all the same.

[@sgsgsgbogasa6421]

Necro, but the strongest Snipers either play on the backline or play with their team depending on how many people are trying to dive/flank them. They rely on their team to relieve pressure for them much in the same way a Demoman or Medic relies on the team for the same thing. That said Sniper is an extremely selfish class, you're not really meant to play on the objective and have no presence on the frontline, all the utility you bring is being able to kill people from across the map.

[@JCBro-yg8vd]

@@sgsgsgbogasa6421 Exactly. At best, a good Sniper might pick off a high priority target before his teammates can, but that's about it.

[@Wa1lx]

don't forget about the engies, it's literally sniper's bbf

[@mthemstandsformilk1965]

Spies don't interact with anyone

[@mushroom9639]

2:55 R.I.P Spy from Team Fortress 2

[@peet-janissen5838]

If your really quiet you can stil hear him storting.

[@5JSX5]

you can actually see him ascend to heaven

[@ignaciodanielrojasgutierre6972]

The spy had deadringer

[@bunnies8773]

I am the spy _Flies_

[@ryanhernandez8324]

"I am the Die." - Spy

[@Matteo_Consiglio]

Being stomped by a good sniper do NOT feel like being stomped by a good soldier, lets say. Being stomped by a good sniper feels like you cant do nothing, like you re at the mercy of the sniper, not of your own skills

[@Gayophile]

Sniper - op instakill across the map that can't be prevented Soldier - balanced shooting rockets at the ground 2 meters from the enemy and killing him because splashes and massive damage Bad comparison, these 2 classes are the same ruiners of the game with uninspired abuse of overpowered mechanics

[@Matteo_Consiglio]

@@Gayophile thats not the point: against soldier you can do something, against a good sniper you cant, more often than not

[@Sjon_E]

It's seriously disrespectful and completely dismissive that he said that. Believing that instantly killing someone from the maximum map range behind all of the other enemies, from peaking a few pixels is some how comparable to a solider that can juggle you is laughably naïve. If i'm being stomped by any another other class i know that i can think of ways to trip them up by either changing loadout or class, in a game like tf2 there's always a solution to a problem but in the case of sniper, the solutions are very limited and if they're good enough with a pocketed medic and a sentry near by, he's essentially an unkillable machine where you're lucky to kill him suiciding as spy.

[@Gayophile]

Hello soldier mains. How many times you've seen a player on a godlike killstreak that was not a sniper/soldier/demoknight (killer + medic not included because godlike such as this can be achieved with any class)? That's right, maybe in your opinion sniper can be cheap unlike soldier, but when a person who sees these 2 classes as a crutch, reads these kinds of comments as if soldier was a proper way to play the game, just can't get over how deluded one can be. What counters does soldier have? Airblast? Escape with a rocket jump or shoot pyro with a shotgun, easy since he has an airblaster mindset when facing soldiers. Short circuit? Same thing. When you play as a soldier, you can pick up fights or deny them since you are one of the most mobile classes. Combine it with high hp, high damage output and you get similar "unkillable machine", just like sniper. When every other class faces counter, it's a hard fight usually resulting in a death of a countered class. When a soldier faces counter: rocket in feet, keep distance, don't get involved in a fight with a counter. So referring to "being stomped by a good sniper do NOT feel like being stomped by a good soldier", it FEELS like, in both cases I roll my eyes when that happens. Maybe you don't see how cheap soldier is because you preffer similarily cheap tactics. If you think more about it, soldier comes as demoman for noobs, comparing how pipes and rockets work, pipes going on arch and giving enemy time to react and move from a missed grenade, hell, even stickies require 2 buttons to cause damage, take time to arm and have limited range. "Soldier high skill ceiling" compared to what? Demoman? Spy? Tell me more how you are learning and utilizing that high skill ceiling with your basic soldier gameplay that let's you topscore, and even dominate players that are better than you. I am not getting deeper into this, from my experience I know internet discussions are a waste of time, especially when I am talking to people defending soldier. This is my last reply, I am not going to grow any respect for soldier mains in this life or another. Bye.

[@Sjon_E]

@@Gayophile A solider can't kill you from across the map in one shot where he's completely unseen. A solider can't fight you behind his whole team. He needs to put himself remotely close to you in order to be efficient, Just like basically every other class in the game. Solider mains are annoying, but it never feels like i'm being robbed of fun and want to turn off the game if i get killed by one.

[@Boldcheesecake1029]

Insta kill, check, infinite range,check, hit scan, check, can see and thus react faster, check. CAN USE THE PAN, HELLA CHECK.

[@AndreIguodalaFan55]

Rando krits op

[@Henry-bl3me]

Rambo krits :)))

[@captaincanti]

Has counters for two of his counters, check. There is no good fucking reason for the Razorback and Danger Shield to exist.

[@roboticintelligenceunit1a652]

Fist beats pan

[@roboticintelligenceunit1a652]

@@AndreIguodalaFan55 fist=op

[@radishhat5736]

Just because it has a high skill floor doesn't exempt it from being overpowered. For example. in fighting games, if there's an infinite that requires practice and training to get good at the timing. but once you land it you just kill them, a lot of people would call that overpowered.

[@dustrockblues7567]

It's about how good it is compared to other options of similar difficulty.

[@arstulex]

@@dustrockblues7567 Difficulty should never be considered when balancing a game. Ever. The problem with using difficulty as a balancing factor is that it's a variable that changes based on the player. It's a 'downside' that can essentially be removed with practice, leaving only the upsides that were given in exchange for that 'downside'. Think of it this way. The Heavy's main weakness that he is almost entirely balanced around is his low speed and lack of mobility. In return for this low speed and mobility, he is given ridiculously high DPS and the highest health pool in the game. It doesn't matter how much you practice as Heavy, it doesn't matter how high your skill is, you _cannot_ remove that weakness. He will _always_ be slow and immobile. To many game devs fall into the trap of thinking "it's difficult to play" is a valid downside and end up 'compensating' for that difficulty when balancing, and every time it leads to a character/class that becomes straight up overpowered once people have mastered it and effectively nullified the difficulty as a downside. Lee Sin from League of Legends is an example of this happening.

[@triggerpull9275]

@@arstulex Except that it's literally a valid factor if you want to make a character that's precisely hard to play as but rewarding, it should be stronger than everything else but not to the point of not having any counter play Something like Geese's howard raging storm for example, has the waffle input and costs 1 bar of power to use because it's an all around broken move and it's absolutely necessary for a geese player to master it if they want to get good at him

[@offandsphere6788]

@@arstulex imagine if heavy got an infinitely stackable, temporary speedboost by spamming the W key lmao

[@arstulex]

@@offandsphere6788 Is this actually a thing? I haven't played the game in quite a while now so I wouldn't know, If that is a thing then it's fucking stupid.

[@yhlee1205]

If sniper gets that Garand ping, I would just shoot aimlessly just to hear that sweet sound.

[@pacifistminigun3987]

mood

[@dessymaz188]

Infinite range hitscan instakill class in a game where installing aimbot is like a hop skip and a jump

[@poopyjoe7435]

all they have to do is make all sniper rifles projectile and it would be epic!!!11

[@Jessie_Helms]

The problem isn’t with sniper it’s with valve. Braaaap heavy bots were a thing for a hot minute there

[@poopyjoe7435]

@@liquidcheezc9074 yeah and it would make fighting aimbot sniper bots easier but could risk some sniper mains rage quitting

[@finn488]

@@poopyjoe7435 huntsman but better? btw projectile headshots in a movement shooter are almost impossible aside from extremely close range (which is why huntsman has massive body shot damage) I am not sure if making it a projectile is the way to go

[@poopyjoe7435]

@@liquidcheezc9074 depending on how much time they make the bullet travel i think they could keep sniper mains happy

[@terrace15]

a pro sniper is just substantially more powerful than any other pro class and it hurts

[@crack4184]

6v6

[@laynalazarsnumber1fan]

@@crack4184 You know what this team could use? Five more Snipers!

[@crack4184]

@@laynalazarsnumber1fan What could possibly go wrong? 5 more snipers for Gryffindor

[@TKsh1]

@@crack4184 Even at 6v6, he's still far better that the rest of the off-meta classes.

[@PRO100SashaX]

Yea, when the skill ceiling is literally insta kill any range it's super unbalanced even if it takes lots of skill.

[@Thefrostedslime]

I like how Zesty Jesus put it: "Just because something has a high skill ceiling, doesn't mean it's not broken", to which he referred to the old combo pyros where they were a menace to play against but took skill to pull off. A big problem with sniper is he's fundamentally imbalanced. In a game of close-mid range fights, you have this one high damage oddball class who can sit far as fuck away and kill you a fraction of a second while you're unable to counter. Not only that, but he's meant to be "weak" in close range, but then Valve gave him Jarate and Bushwacka, and his old reliable SMG that you can go on killstreaks with. Not to mention how stupid high his initial damage is, where his crit starts at 150 damage, which one shots most of the classes.

[@caramelldansen2204]

As someone with motor difficulties, I basically can't play the game when there's a good sniper owning me. Sniper and spy are never fun to play as, or against.

[@Thefrostedslime]

@@caramelldansen2204 Spy is fine if you're in a pub of people around your skill level, but most of the player base knows what spy checking is so unless you're Speedy.Gonzales2007 who's a trickstab god on pubs, it's very hard to play spy the way Valve intended. Definitely agree with Sniper, he's very hard to counter without another sniper if the sniper is good, and even if you try to engage him he can just run away or hit you with Jarate Bushwacka for massive damage with no downside.

[@caramelldansen2204]

@@Thefrostedslime I've always found instant-kill mechanics un-fun, anyway. I'd rather at least have a chance at fighting back, even _if_ the class attacking me is my class' counter and I'm basically doomed. "Someone chose sniper/spy so now I have to watch the respawn timer tick down and then reposition" with no feasible counter or reactive action is a great incentive to want to go play MvM or some shit.

[@caramelldansen2204]

imho headshots should only do 125+ on full charge; if it's bullshit when Amby spies could do it, why is it not bullshit when sniper can? At least him waiting for charge would both allow for counter while he's scoped, _and_ prevent bullshit quickscopes.

[@literallyvergil1686]

@@caramelldansen2204 the spy is the weakest class in the game killing is very easy if you know what you're doing, the same can't be applied to sniper, and I would argue spy is very fun to play as he's completely unique to anything in an fps, disguising as the enemy team and going invisible are awesome and getting backstabs is exhilarating and takes skill

[@TheAnnoyingF2P]

Mad respect for showing yourself at the bottom of the scoreboard. That happens to everybody but you never see it in videos because watching a death compilation isn't exactly the entertainment most people are looking for.

[@dovahkat9635]

My main issue with the sniper really is that 90% of the time, you don't get to react. You just walk around a corner and instantly die to a sniper half a mile away that is peeking through a tiny gap in all the map obstacles. There is no playing around that, especially if your a class that can just be killed by a full charge body shot. Hell even a spy is gonna have trouble making it that kind of distance without being found out along the way.

[@notgray88]

The number of maps where a sniper has a sightline that long and no flanks is like maybe like 4.

[@sev1120]

​@@notgray88the number should be a nice clean ZERO

[@AzureTheAvian]

@@notgray88Even if there are flanks, all sniper needs to do is jarate and melee whoever comes across him, and he’s right back to camping without a café in the world. Believe me, I get picked all the time being a medic main. And my team NEVER is able to kill the camping sniper in any maps I play. If there’s a good sniper on the enemy team, you might as well re-que. Because the game is already over.

[@beerme27]

just started playing this game for the first time recently. i got a critical hit on this one guy about mid range. i then switched to my secondary to finish him due to the sniper reload time. anyway, he ended up killing me first. he wasn't playing a heavy class which has the most hp of any class if i'm not mistaken. sniper is a difficult class to play.

[@Joural0401]

​@@beerme27Being difficult is not the same as being balanced. Imagine there was a set of keys you could input frame perfectly that would instantly kill a random enemy from the spawn room. Only 1:1000 players can do it because it's so hard, and that's among the players who know of the mechanic in the first place and try to pull it off. We'll even say it takes a full five seconds to pull off. Is that balanced? No, obviously not. Difficulty is not related to balance. It's related to skill. That's a different question. A tool can be broken because it's easy, but it can also be broken because it lacks a skill ceiling.

[@arrowtongue]

My god, the 4 shot clip with a loud reload is the most genius suggestion I've seen for sniper, reducing the 150 base headshot always made me feel icky and it felt like a bandaid that wouldn't fix the issues he has, this just makes perfect sense, and not only that, it would fix a 13 year old issue with his reload animation making no sense! Brilliant stuff.

[@GamStr-xq3vc]

So literaly at TF1 Kräber? Minus 1 shot of course but still Titanfall did it why not team fortress

[@cocorazor8837]

Most tf2 reloads dont make sense

[@GamStr-xq3vc]

@@cocorazor8837 none of them do

[@flamingkittyumad]

A 4 shot clip would kill sniper. His secondaries are all shit unless the enemy rushes him blindly, he needs some sort of power.

[@LoraLoibu]

@@flamingkittyumad Jarate + Bushwhacka

[@Timeward76]

13:00 as for making snipers easier to see, something Battlefield did was Scope Glint, so you can see from afar when a sniper is aiming at you. Granted, in battlefield you can be shot from far enough away you effectively cant see the sniper period, but it's still an idea.

[@henodude7804]

I think that being able to see the laser would be good.

[@Mate_Antal_Zoltan]

@@henodude7804 ...but you can already see the red dot

[@OGXenos]

@@Mate_Antal_Zoltan But not when its pointed right at you, which is the problem.

[@MrBallReal]

It’s not like seeing the gleam of light from the scope is going to matter because you will already be dead from the snipers fucking cracked reaction speed

[@iamacatperson7226]

That's good, but quickscoping would still destroy you

[@CaptainWobbs]

The thing is, I think, that there’s no real counter play to a hyper-talented enemy sniper. If you’ve got a cocky Scout who’s good at unpredictable movement and aim, a sentry can shut him down. If you’ve got a bombing tryhard soldier who keeps jumping into your entire team and getting out for free, using something like the Natasha can really help with the counterplay. Against a really good enemy sniper, nothing can really be done. You play any class besides sniper and he’ll kill you before you’re in range. You play sniper and he kills you simply because he’s just better. Try something like the Vaccinator or even regular Über and he can simply retreat and let his team stall you. When the all-encompassing balance ideology of “it doesn’t matter how good the enemy player is, there’s a counterplay somewhere you can employ with your team to defeat them” just doesn’t apply to a certain class, that class clearly has some issues that need resolving.

[@chobets]

I completely agree.. Just today, I played against two really good spies (as demoman) and although it was painful at first, I got used to spychecking suspicious players and overall they became less of a threat to me. However, when I came up against this sniper on badwater (we were defending) he just kept getting into spots that were practically impossible to reach. Stickies couldn't reach it, pipes couldn't reach it, you couldn't sticky/rocket jump over there because he was so far behind his team that you would be killed immediately upon any attempt of assassination. Yes.. You can counter snipers, but it takes a LOT of time and work. You either have to get a spy to make their way over to the sniper, kill him, somehow get out alive, or get your entire team to push that area just to kill the sniper. And every single method is a waste of time, because a sniper can just respawn and do it all over again. Snipers rarely have to reposition and can just click on heads at a far distance to their heart's content, given that they're good. There are so little counters to him, and even the counters that do exist, you have to go to great lengths to achieve. The reward of killing a sniper is just so little, because all they need to do is wait for their team to push up a bit, get in a good spot, and just.. stay there. I just find that sniper is unnecessarily hard to counter. You either need to waste your time on a full frontal assault with your team, probably resulting in a graveyard in casualties, or having to switch class (or get someone else to switch class) just to deal with him. All of his counters are quirky and unreliable, and I think that he needs to at least be given more vulnerability or less firepower. I, in a sense, disagree with Fishtank on him being a "glass cannon". Yes, he's made of glass, but that glass isn't gonna break unless you get close to him, which is practically impossible unless you're on the proper map. I think it mainly comes down to the map, but even on maps that do not favor him, he can still excel with quickscopes. Nerf quickscope time, make it more of an effort to get into good positions, and try and get him to actually move around more instead of staying in one spot for three minutes. edit: i completely forgot you can counter sniper with.. another sniper. but, once again, that makes it so you have to have someone to switch class and stay live long enough to pose any sort of a threat

[@anthonyfarias5076]

You can kinda counter with vaccinator

[@Krcun774]

@@anthonyfarias5076 And what if you or the friendly medic with the vaccinator doesn't have any uber atm?

[@anthonyfarias5076]

@@Krcun774 ambassador / enforcer spy, fists of steel, battalion's backup, etc.

[@Krcun774]

@@anthonyfarias5076 What if you don't have the rage ready for the Battalion's Backup?

[@awesomeness9824]

The "don't play these maps" or "sniper being powerful depends on the skill of the player and there aren't many skilled snipers" points are moot for a lot of players who play on serious community servers (such as uncletopia) to avoid casual bots, because most everyone on those servers that go sniper easily have 5k+ hours on sniper alone.

[@SharkOSix]

I've been goofing on uncle topia and I did not know it was comp

[@user-lh7mt7zo7l]

@@SharkOSix It turns off random crits and bullet spread of course it's comp lol

[@nerdsunscripted624]

@@SharkOSix it’s comp config but it’s meant to be casual in feel and play

[@SharkOSix]

@@user-lh7mt7zo7l bullet spread is op

[@user-lh7mt7zo7l]

@@SharkOSix lol

[@ScatterBrainedYouBetterFollow]

"If you dont enjoy playing against sniper, dont play these maps" Thats worse, you do understand thats worse?

[@Elijah668]

It may be worse, but at least its better than being locked down and being unable to play a game. Also the comment seemed more geared to the people who have a rage attack all because of a headshot. Its like how people avoid valve servers for the bots and just play community maps.

[@danielsurvivor1372]

Based Scatter

[@EthVortexShield]

And the video uploader's favorite map to play on is turbine for exactly the reasons he described

[@moch126]

Tbf the maps where sniper is overpowered on are usually bad maps (except badwater, that hiding spot on the rocks is bs)

[@nerd_nato564]

I'd say that this means "if you don't like sniper, go fix the maps, not the class" or something similar.

[@Jessica-el5yx]

The biggest problem to my eyes is just that Sniper has a design that conflicts with pretty much every other class in the game - he can one-shot enemies and can do that from nearly any range on the map, not to mention his weapon is based on locational damage on a player, one solution I thought of was making the sniper rifle have the damage charge build while aiming at an enemy, maybe having aiming for the head increase the charge rate, but when I made a server plugin to do this I realised it probably wouldn't work as well as it sounds in theory. Every other class puts much more emphasis on movement and positioning when in combat, it takes thought to fight, in contrast to sniper who is much more about natural instincts or things that can effectively be worked down to muscle memory.

[@thebreadbringer]

That is actually a really good idea! I think things like this would make Sniper a better experience for both players. Aside from the damage output, Sniper also really needs to be more visible. Shounic's video about a visible laser seems very interesting to me, and having the beam start off fairly transparent but growing more opaque as charge increases would work wonderfully with your idea!

[@hairyspider151]

I agree with most of these points, but I think that close-range quickscope especially need rebalancing more than long range quick-scopes. Sure headshotting at close range is hard but if the opponent can do it there isn't much you can do. They should add a reverse falloff until it charges to a certain point. This would also make sniper more dedicated as a long-range class and indirectly buff the huntsman, classic, and Sydney sleeper while both buffing and nerfing the bazaar bargain.

[@pastamondays1712]

I think that increasing his base reload is a great idea, but I think that also opens up opportunities for dynamics in his kit. For the stock, you could just make the animation more realistic. Make it so that he actually has to pull out a bullet and load it into the chamber each time he shoots. Overall increase of a second maybe 1.5. For the hitman’s heat maker, you could give it an actual clip, therefor making it more practical for hitting multiple headshots in a row, but it comes with the drawback of a hard reload

[@comfy_21771]

Now we can finally have the revolver-rifle we all truely desire

[@elfascisto6549]

Realistic ≠ Good

[@pacifistminigun3987]

@@elfascisto6549 not always at least

[@pacifistminigun3987]

i think it might need too much work tho, but i don't dislike the idea (also, i'd reduce the 1.5s delay to 1.2/1s)

[@TheLunarMan]

That would make second scoping unbearable.

[@StickMaster500]

As someone who’s plays Sniper the most, I can definitely agree with this as an example, you being able to turn around when someone is shooting at you, usually at close range, and then instantly headshotting them is quite unfair since Sniper’s main weakness is his lack of defence when he’s at close range because well... he’s a Sniper. However, some of the most skilled Snipers have basically managed to negate that downside almost completely making him one of the most deadliest classes in the game and can easily carry your team which is why is also think the Bazaar Bargain is the most OP Sniper Rifle in the game. Why do you think in Competitive 6v6 that when people change to another class that’s not in the meta is almost always the Sniper and why do you think it’s the most common class used by hackers? I think an easy way to nerf the ability of quickscoping is to either reducing the amount of damage on a quickscope headshot or give it reverse damage falloff where the Sniper Rifle will deal it’s normal damage from long range but less damage from close range probably only dealing up to 100 damage making you unable to instantly kill the Scout racing around the corner or your examples for balance changes and have you prioritise in killing with your secondary or melee, giving them more overall use by at least buffing the damage of the SMG’s so it doesn’t keep people using weapons such as the Jarate or the Razorback all the time.

[@obad7633]

Another person who says to nerf a class based on skill. There's just a huge new boost of players who haven't been able to properly learn how to face a good sniper. Of course a 4k hour sniper will dominate a server but so would any player on any class with 4k hours. This is why no professional players complain about sniper.

[@VulcanicCloud]

@@obad7633 Yeah, nerfing based on skill is never a good option. I've fought really good Scouts and Soldiers who were able to delete me just as fast as a top tier Sniper could. I think one of the bigger issues of Sniper is his weapons. The Bazaar Bargain is no doubt too op, Jarate and it's Bushwacka combo nulify Sniper's close/melee range weakness (plus granting mini-crits to you and your team at the cost of the SMG is op.) As well as removing anti-class items like the Dangershield and Razorback, since their main purpose is just "fuck this class in particular", those kinds of weapons aren't balanced.

[@astat54]

I agree that the best way to nerf quick-scoping is to just prevent snipers from doing it, period. 100 damage instantly upon scoping in, is already really REALLY good. Wanting to also be able to insta-kill a majority of the game's classes is just the prisoner asking for the keys to his cell at that point. And all these suggested nerfs that try to skirt around this issue. Still trying to let quick-scoping be a thing is just being a bit too soft in my opinion. However I'd also say that just nerfing quick-scoping and calling it a day, would just trade one issue for another. The sniper could still just blast out 2 100 damage quick-scopes to insta-kill everything but a heavy. And still with little risk to himself. So in addition to nerfing quick-scopes. I'd also slow down the sniper rifle's charge time considerably. I don't think that it's too much to ask for, considering that even with a 0 heads bazaar bargain, the charge time is so fast it might as well not exist. But with both of these nerfs stacked on top of eachother, what effectively happens is that now the sniper has to actually sit there and wait a few seconds if he wants to say pick a med, giving the med a bit of time to get out of there. as well as giving him harder tunnel vision, allowing him to be flanked and counter sniped easier. Sniper now punishes enemy players for being clueless with positioning or getting aggressive/cocky. Instead of punishing them for existing in the same server as him.

[@triangletriangle4520]

Our beloved stickmaster? A sniper main?

[@triangletriangle4520]

@@obad7633 yes but at high levels the skill to effect ratio for sniper is by far the highest by a crap ton

[@thegamerator10]

If we didn't go with the Garand-style reload, I could see a missed shot being punished by Sniper taking his left hand off his rifle in a sort of "What? How did I miss that?" action for about a second before loading another bullet like normal; landing a shot would yield the same animation as we have now.

[@inkubus6192]

I would honestly just opt for a universal reload time increase on scoped shots, whether they hit or miss.

[@cloudynguyen6527]

Not only this is impractical but it also disrespects to Sniper's character

[@vene]

When I die to pretty much every other class, I can immediately think of things that I could've done better. I could've juked to the left. I could've predicted their movement better, I could've aimed better, that sort of thing. My frustration with engineers went way down once I finally learned to listen ahead for the sound of sentries. With sniper, this is literally nonexistent. Any decent sniper will hide their sniper dot, which is the only telegraph that you're about to get fucked by someone watching a sightline. So I really like the idea of sniper having a loud reload, for starters. It would also be nice if you could see what you could've done better - maybe a replay from the sniper's perspective to see what your movement looked like when he shot you. I think those two changes would deal with 90% of my frustration with sniper. The remaining 10% is that its power really should be capped better so that bots are killable.

[@flamingkittyumad]

How to counter sniper: Know the enemy team has a sniper. There ya go.

[@HK-pq7pe]

@@flamingkittyumad smort

[@ZorotheGallade]

Hitting the nal on the head. I suck at the game but when I get splattered by a sentry I always think "Well duh, I rushed ahead in that corridor without paying attention, that's on me". When I get killed by a spy I think "Well, I should have checked better for hiding places" unless they do some bullshit magical facestab When I get killed by a sniper, it's because I didn't spot a class that was peeking two inches out of cover at the other side of the map with an actual battle going on inbetween.

[@Gengawa]

want bots dead? Vacc medic heavy gg

[@Breakaway-ic5gj]

You should be able to hear the charging noise, and they should give Spy/Scout or Sniper some sort of item that lets them spot people

[@reynoalfarez]

Next TF2 update they're gonna remove Sniper class entirely and add 84 new cosmetics for Heavy

[@theguywithadifferentopinio9060]

I don't see anything wrong with this

[@darthplagueis13]

Ah yes, that's what people mean by the Heavy Update, don't they?

[@triangletriangle4520]

The greatest balance patch in tf2 history

[@theguywithadifferentopinio9060]

@@darthplagueis13 yeh because the legendary Heavy Update is said to solve 50% of all problems facing TF2

[@frankfs8415]

good ending

[@logged-out]

8 kills 18 deaths "this is actually the worst i've ever done and it caused me to have a minor breakdown" me with my 3 kills and 40 deaths: *_panic_*

[@promemesseller9660]

i can relate

[@mdbgamer556]

I mostly just try to chill.

[@IlIBonesIlI]

Welcome to TF2. The skill wall is kind Everst-y for the first thousand or so hours, and one day, things will just _click_ and you'll really get it My advice, look up some Training maps, practice your accuracy

[@ediodimacaroni]

@@IlIBonesIlI I never got it after 1,500 hours. I just suck at videogames

[@IlIBonesIlI]

@@ediodimacaroni I too suck at video games, friend. I sympathize, but I believe in you

[@theneatpenguin7862]

My problem with sniper is that for a handful of classes, the only counter to him is to not be seen by him. If you are far away from him as scout, pyro, heavy, engineer, medic, and sometimes spy, you are dead, just because xX_camping_gamer_Xx clicked on your head from the other side of the map. Its not fun to play against, even though it takes skill.

[@ffff-qw7sp]

"One has eliminated human error and the other hasn't" LMAO you'd think this video wasn't released today

[@voratheexplorer6442]

In terms of balance discussion you can't factor in bots for the same reason you can't factor in random crits. They both need to go for the game to be good, no matter how much you change about the game

[@man-uk8cz]

@@voratheexplorer6442 except that one is just making your rocket shiny some times and another is a AI designed to have perfect aim

[@voratheexplorer6442]

@@man-uk8cz and both need to go before we can really discuss balance. That's what I'm saying. Bots are by definition unbalanced because the person using them is investing no effort

[@beautifulnova6088]

@@man-uk8cz There are cheats to get shiny rockets too. It's possible to force the game to not give you a crit once you're up for one and then stop throttling it at will when you actually want to crit.

[@ninja6245-real]

@@beautifulnova6088 didn’t you know? It’s already happened to me. Every time I want a crit. Doesn’t happen.

[@sugoianimester5789]

I love the fact that this game has been around for so many years and that, to this day, still debating about the strengths and weaknesses of the mercenaries we all know and love. Awesome video! Edit: Oh Wow! Didn't expect to get this many likes! ♥️

[@manflabs5209]

Dude I looked at the steam charts the other day and there were 100k active players on tf2. Made me smile

[@g--stef4756]

TF2 is a game that's stupidly well made and stupidly fun, even with Valve leaving it in the dust and the ongoing botpocalypse it'll likely stick around in some form or another for some time, just as it has for upwards of a decade already.

[@pacifistminigun3987]

@@g--stef4756 and all this exist thanks to random people that decided to mod quake. imagine how they might feel right now, knowing how far the game went!

[@dr.cranium9080]

Although the debates aren’t centered around conjecture, i find it hard to recognize that these arguments have any meaning whatsoever when the tf2 dev balance team is non existent

[@nbrickey7272]

"Body shots need to be nerfed" Sydney sleeper bros... we can't catch a break can we?

[@beautifulnova6088]

I still miss the piss explosion on headshot, that was a cool mechanic that felt rewarding and fitting.

[@MattisticStatistic]

Honestly, sydney sleeper could probably remain unaffected as compensation, giving it a slight buff in comparison.

[@pacifistminigun3987]

@@beautifulnova6088 wait, they removed it?!

[@pacifistminigun3987]

@@MattisticStatistic would make sense tbh

[@beautifulnova6088]

@@pacifistminigun3987 Yeah, replaced it with minicrits and -1 second cooldown for jarate on headshot.

[@lemono5954]

One of my biggest problems with sniper is that an unscoped shot just kills ur momentum, and they are pretty easy to hit

[@Markm8]

That last line is so true for so many games

[@maestrofeli4259]

the "fuck you for trying to pull that shit on me" line?

[@Markm8]

@@maestrofeli4259 the "as long as there's two classes left in the game someone is gonna want someone nerfed". yours's also good tho

[@brickwall9781]

2 notes: These balances would make the Classic actually a bit more viable if that weapon was left as is, having no need to reload compared to the new changes to the other rifles. It'd still probably need adjustment but it may actually be something more than a joke now. Also, another possible suggestion would be to make the rifle's sound bring a much more distinguishable report, as in make the sound reach much farther, or make a distinct crackle be heard by the opponent when a shot whizzes close by them. Not sure if it'd add much to warn the opponent but it'd add a cool intimidation factor, just to hear a unique crackle of a sniper's bullet whizzing by.

[@thatguybrody4819]

the classic would definitely be more viable and the reload mechanic would be plausible as it actually has a long mag. it needs the ability to fire when not on the ground though. i cannot tell you how pissed i get when i didn't get to shoot my attacker because i was knocked .2 centimeters off the ground before shooting or just happen to be in the water.

[@NoSoupForYouu]

I actually think that the bullet wiz would be a great idea

[@1920s-o4r]

The classic is honestly the most balanced rifle in the game right now. Every shot counts and you can't spam them, but you can still use it to effectively defend yourself at close range if you can aim. Even against an overhealed heavy. It even kind of has the bullet wiz effect in a visual sense. Probably should have been the standard from the start. Guy Brody is right though, not being able to shoot while midair is infuriating.

[@alik250]

5:13 Ah, the ol' Taunt 'n' Lose, most OP combo in the game

[@Lol-fo2zq]

Sniper is broken for 2 pretty obvious reasons: 1. There is no actual counterplay to a sniper, only certain things you can do to make them more likely to miss. The outcome of every interaction depends only on the sniper's skill at the end of the day. 2. Large and open maps will always be unbalanced because sniper just exists

[@dagrox2562]

The counterplay to a sniper is another sniper, lol

[@RandomFurry07]

@@dagrox2562 and that's about it, though spy can soft counter Sniper but... Razorback (it just makes it inconvenient to kill him though, not completely counter him) and Jarate+Bushwacka

[@dagrox2562]

@@RandomFurry07 razorback and bushwacka should honestly be removed outright in my opinion lol

[@NewbyTon]

Everybody gangsta till the sniper gets the ambassador treatment

[@dexnacorn7807]

Oh no

[@TheLunarMan]

I loved the pre-nerf ambassador, I always used it to bully snipers.

[@skipperg4436]

Still takess 2 shots. Enough for sniper to turn around and kill you. That is even if he didn't hear decloak.

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

Actually good idea, encourages snipers to get closer, which enables other classes to kill him

[@jamiesnack]

revert amby, nerf sniper

[@silver-ag4437]

"Wow I'm so good at this game and now I'm dead"

[@peet-janissen5838]

I understood that refrence.

[@maxthebat.8635]

"but what about the times you aren't even good?" "WOW I'M DEAD"

[@silver-ag4437]

And what about the times you don't even seem to die? "WOW I'M SO GOOD AT THIS GAME"

[@xi4897]

@@silver-ag4437 lol no sometimes u dont die but you are still trash

[@busterbeast999]

I read that in Scout's voice and it is rather fitting

[@purplehaze2358]

“And if they’re using the bushwacka they’re REALLY going to regret getting in close range” Isn’t it’s sniper’s whole thing to be a long rage class that gets dumpstered in close range combat?

[@davisdf3064]

Bushwacka + Jarate: "um... No?"

[@juanignaciosala9414]

lol no

[@casematecardinal]

Close range quick scopes random criteria and jirate would be inclined to disagree

[@fnutek3720]

If you die to jarate and bushwacka you are already being a fucking goober

[@sopadumacacoumadelicia5]

@@fnutek3720 Sure, buddy

[@knatkniht]

A big part of the problem is that sniper isn't actually vulnerable at short range. His melee options are good, he has jarate and two shields specifically designed to deal with flankers, and he can always just snipe at close range too. Even unscoped, you can just click on any enemy at close range for 50 instant damage and then finish with melee. I rarely actually feel like flanking on a sniper is an easy pick.

[@NotStave]

a no scope and melee is 115...

[@Nicoder6884]

@@NotStave Well your opponent is often not at full health.

[@marisanya]

Sniper has been a bane on highlander since even before the bot crisis has gotten casuals to think about Sniper. The entire game would revolve around sniper, he's so fundamentally broken. There is no real fix for this either, he really doesn't fit in a game that's more fundamentally like Quake than it is like Call of Duty.

[@NoSoupForYouu]

I agree, since I played in comp 5-6 years ago I noticed that over powered snipers supported by a mediocre combo would carry and only now people are talking about it cause of hackers or maybe cause pros are playing casual more often

[@ninja6245-real]

Actually... A pyro could rush a sniper and even if the sniper has his ENTIRE TEAM with him. He still won’t make out of it alive!

[@troyherrmann235]

@@ninja6245-real 150 DMG headshot when he turns the corner and bye bye what the fuck do you mean? a god sniper vs a god at any other class and the god sniper wins 5000/5000 times

[@ninja6245-real]

@@troyherrmann235 pyro has 175 health.

[@troyherrmann235]

@@ninja6245-real and sniper has a SMG, and if your only play against sniper is just to kill yourself rushing him then that is just stupid, lastly he has a team, that he is most likely behind

[@apertureb2247]

You dont balance a class around them missing, thats the problem with sniper.

[@moonrunes1546]

Lmao, it’s the exact same problem with the ambi. The ambassador is absolutely BUSTED in the right hands. All be it, it was much MUCH worse before, but it’s still a MASSIVE amount of damage for the spy. A spy who has offensive power behind AND in front of you is just stupid.

[@TheOneWhoHasABadName]

revert ambi nerf, then we can all be snipers, except some of us have cloaks actually, I kind of like the idea of a stealthy sniper unlock, like a cloak that makes you invisible from further than a certain distance after scoping for a second or two. after all, snipers irl are supposed to shoot when everyone else is unaware of their existence it’s probably not very fun to play against, though

[@spicytea735]

All the classes are balanced around them missing, lmao, that's the point of a shooter. The sniper doesn't have a problem. Map design might, but that's not the sniper's fault. Dustbowl makes demoman INCREDIBLY powerful, especially when compared to how well the Scout performs on that map. Does that make Demo OP and Scout in need of some SERIOUS buffs? Hell no, it means Dustbowl is a trash map. It's amazing that after over a decade, people suddenly have an issue with Sniper, despite the fact that his job has only gotten more and more difficult over time lmao.

[@moonrunes1546]

@@spicytea735 if all the classes were designed around missing then you wouldn’t have to be so close to your enemy to be 100% affective as 8 out of 9 classes (maybe with the exception of engineer but he’s an entire desperate matter.) the scout can only do so much damage from medium to long range. As a scout you must get close to your enemy, same goes for your opponent lent no matter who your fighting against. Truth is, all classes prevail around close combat. TF2 is not like a traditional shooter where simply the better shot wins a fight. Counter play plays a huge roll. Knowing what your enemy has and using that knowledge to play around it. Just because a scout can aim slightly better than you does not determine the winner. However that is all thrown out the window with sniper, who is affected not only at close range because of his quick scopes, but at medium and long range as well. If every class is only affective at close range combat then the sniper effectively counters every class simply because they can aim well, no matter the range. You pretty much have 2 options at countering sniper at that point, either pray to god he doesn’t see you while flanking and quick scope you, or hope you can out snipe him. All in all, sniper is the only class in the game that is entirely designed around the player missing.

[@letsmakeit110]

@@spicytea735 they arent though. you could have a competitive match where everyone is using an aimbot and it would be strategically engaging, as long as sniper is banned.

[@furjaden8553]

Finally, a balance idea that doesn't lower the skill ceiling, but increases it. Correction: power ceiling.

[@pacifistminigun3987]

agreed

[@triangletriangle4520]

I mean, if lowering snipers skill ceiling is needed to fix him then so be it

[@furjaden8553]

@@triangletriangle4520 There are always other ways, just because it's easy to change, doesn't make it good.

[@Buglin_Burger7878]

@@furjaden8553 If a skill ceiling of one class is to high compared to the others this is the source of the problem. You either have to bring others up or lower that one down. Any other solutions don't fix the issue... that the sniper can outperform everyone. -A sniper fan in most games, not just TF2. ...the problem is the sniper's is actually lower. Because he removes most of the enemy's half of the ceiling. A Solider faces a soldier it comes down to skill... but when a different house faces another the sniper's size gives him control and only if he fails does the soldier's matter.

[@triangletriangle4520]

@@furjaden8553 maybe, but an important thing to balance is make him fun to fight as well as fair. Even with the clip idea, you still get instantkilled from across the map

[@TheMemeSniper]

sniper at really long range is basically a point and click leapfrog game until the enemy team finds you

[@nuclearfilms9754]

10:48 Banana Man kills Bananabro. There is a story here and I am not paid enough to figure it out.

[@superequinox4185]

Thinking about a sniper with only 15 reserve ammo makes me smile

[@Chud_Bud_Supreme]

I'd say give him the reloading clip he talks about and give him 16 bullets in total. 4/16

[@Attaxalotl]

My dream sniper nerf is: 15 ammo Longer reload Some kind of long ranged visual indication besides a tiny dot that a sniper is scoped in and ready to shoot you (someone suggested a scope glint) A cap on the max mouse move speed.

[@Chud_Bud_Supreme]

@@Attaxalotl No, not longer reload; just give him a reload animation, period. Manually ejecting a spent round is not "reloading" I never thought about until this video, but Sniper never has to reload, and has a rifle that holds 25 bullets. That is massively op to the point it makes me angry that this game has been out for nearly 14 years and that has NEVER been addressed

[@dell988]

@@Attaxalotl Max mouse is just dumb. If a person is truly good at sniper, putting a cap won't hurt them in the long run.

[@Attaxalotl]

@@dell988 But it *will* affect bots.

[@TheRedCap]

"Geeting rolled by a good Sniper feels just as bad as getting rolled by a good demo" As an Engineer main I can confirm: getting rolled by a demo _fucking sucks_

[@ayyimyou546]

just dont ploay engineer lol easy fix

[@TheRedCap]

@@ayyimyou546 but I like engineer :(

[@NormalThe7th]

Difference is that some people could go spy , or pyro to backstab or kill the demo , for a sniper the flank route requires you to actually flank instead of being able to face them head on

[@potatorat2508]

the difference is, getting rolled by a sniper just feels incredibly defeating, you don’t even get to run around the map trying to fight anyone, whereas with a good soldier or demo you actually have a chance at killing them if you catch them by surprise. Sniper doesn’t have this issue because he can literally just turn around and one shot a scout, an engineer, a peeking sniper, a discovered spy, etc. Even with most other things, if he hits you with a quick headshot and then a body shot, a soldier, pyro, and demo instantly die. Meanwhile, a demo trap can be baited by simply having one guy walk out and the next one walk out after. Very different situations for a spawn camp, and it’s kinda dumb to compare them

[@TheRedCap]

@Romanian RoN doesn't make it any less painful

[@Powerlevelspy]

I used to defend sniper even though I wasn't a sniper main at the time, but now after careful reconsideration and playing sniper again I realized something. This class is very much busted. I thought it was fair because of how hard it is to land headshots, but then I realized that every other class has to put in effort to aim which is comparable to snipers while getting a smaller damage output. Also bodyshots completely negate the whole "But sniper has to hit a tiny head argument" since 3.3 seconds at long range is nothing and you generally have a team to protect you. Sniper can quite literally drop a medic by hitting them in the body while a medic who has the crossbow using a projectile that takes time to hit cannot do the same amount of damage as sniper can. Also the weapons sniper has access to make him an actually decent class at close range. Jarate and bushwacka are a prime example of this. Not only that, but unlike demoman who has to take time to set up a sticky trap and reload and is generally weak at close range even with melee, sniper just has to go into scope and wait for someone to kill. While I do think spy is a good threat to sniper, the weapons that sniper has against spy can completely negate all the effort of hiding, sneaking, and finding the right opportunity. I really think sniper needs a nerf and here are some suggestions. 1) Make bodyshots weaker, reducing it down to 140 or even 130 would likely make snipers focusing more on hitting heads than on hitting the chest. 2) Nerf Jarate, self explanatory an idea would be to make the splash radius smaller. 3) The tracer round idea was mentioned in the video and I think it would work wonders. TL:DR: Make bodyshots weaker, nerf jarate, and bushwacka.

[@mariustan9275]

I heard there was a balnce idea to nerf jarate at close range specifically. Basically if you throw jarate too close to yourself, you also get the jarate status effect, kinda like soldier and demo with their self-splash damage. Also it was labelled "Hit too close, piss yourself".

[@Powerlevelspy]

@@mariustan9275 I heard the same thing and I agree, but at the same time it would severly cripple Jarate that it would need something else going for it because otherwise it would be far more practical to use the smg. I'm not saying we should leave jarate as is, but I still want it to be a good sidegrade option. Maybe make it so the sniper when hit by his own jarate the effects wear off faster.

[@mariustan9275]

@@Powerlevelspy Yeah, like the crit a cola I guess.

[@Lawlz4Dayzz]

Nerf Snipers base damage in general. Theoredivally one shoting most of the classes in the game with headshots is too much. It should take multiple shots to kill any class at least as a warning and chance to survive while charged headshots should be the only thing that has the potential to one shot. Id say 25 damaged at base body shot damage minimum because not just quickscopes but charged shots and headshots are busted as well and give bots and cheaters an edge over every legit player.

[@druwu1801]

Trader moment: ironically, during the point you're making from 9:10 to 9:30 , the hat that the enemy sniper's wearing is actually a VERY rare sight! There's only 3 confirmed verdatica breadcrabs in existence, and the effect was limited to items inside the Summer 2020 case. There's ZERO Medic and Sniper unusuals in that case, and only a single all class being the Breadcrab, which is an elite grade. Given that there's individually a 1% change of unboxing both an elite grade and an unusual, there's a roughly 1:10,000 chance of a breadcrab being unboxed, and since Verdatica is one of the rarest effects, it's more like 1:100,000 for that specific one. Your chance of just seeing that medicore sniper wearing that effect is lower than getting a golden frying pan drop.

[@drent102]

Trader moment B-)

[@pacifistminigun3987]

interesting

[@milesedgeworth2431]

Ok

[@ASTC-Sinon]

I myself am a sniper main, yet I definitely agree that Sniper needs some form of nerf. Sure, Sniper takes a lot of skill to get good at, but it’s not that hard to be at least useful as him. The insanely short quickscope time, combined with the fact that it takes less than half a second to get a pocket 150 damage, just becomes broken as hell. Furthermore, the high ammo count and passive reload further makes it just way too easy to sit around and completely deny an entire sightline. I personally don’t think a clip for sniper would be a good idea, but rather a single shot reload, similar to the reload seen in the Meet The Sniper video, in which he ejects the spent cartridge and loads a new one in before returning the bolt. Also, the fact that your scope is perfect at all times (exception for when you get shot) makes me feel less like I’m using a scope and more like I’m just lowering my FOV. Having some sort of scope sway mechanic, or making your tunnel vision bounce around when moving would make him feel a lot more like a sniper class, and it would also be a good way to counteract the simplicity of running and gunning as a Sniper.

[@chrisjones9132]

sounds like your balancing around killing off pubstomping over a competitive or casual balance

[@captainkiok881]

Maybe people hate him because he has the potential to one shot any class from any range at any time.

[@moss2148]

I think it would be good to give the sniper an actual laser sight, similar to the machina tracer, so you don’t just see the ‘dot’, but also the angle the sniper is currently. This way you don’t have to wait to die to figure out the snipers hiding spot

[@Appletank8]

Most good snipers don’t tend to stand still with their eyes glued to the scope, practically you’d see a red line appearing for a half second before the sniper takes their shot.

[@ttracs]

The issue with that is visual clutter. It looks awful in gameplay.

[@shagarumedic]

Idk visually it might be confused for the wrangler’s laser a lot

[@EzekiesAcheron]

Sniper has an "actual laster sight." Ever used a laser? The line is invisible, only the dot is visible.

[@clydecraft5642]

@@Appletank8 and thats why sniper is poorly designed :) made by devs and playtesters who learned nothing in the time they were playing, and now we have virgins who think head clicking like a robot is fun, with 3000 hours in sniper alone.

[@vidjenko8349]

i was thinking instead of using tracer rounds you could just see the source of the laser shine when he's aiming at or around you, letting you know where the shots are coming from. You could also tell how close he's aiming to your head by how bright it is.

[@BigWarthog]

Like a flash of a scope on the real sniper rifle, right?

[@vidjenko8349]

@@BigWarthog Kind of, but the sniper rifle has a laser mounted on it, which explains the dot where the sniper is aiming. You would definitely notice if someone was shining a laser at your face from a distance.

[@sebastianturner2458]

@@vidjenko8349 Sniper glint, like in destiny? Shiny red light whenever they're scoped in. Combine that with the laser dot and you have some pretty good information on the sniper.

[@vidjenko8349]

@@sebastianturner2458 yeah! like that. I mean its not as drastic as straight up giving all rifles tracer rounds. You would see it only when he was aiming around your head.

[@araknus7863]

@@vidjenko8349 I like this.

[@kirbinator4626]

Sniper honestly ruins the game for me. And this was before the cheaters invaded tf2, it just solidifies my opinion further. The sniper-cheater problem wouldn't be as bad as it is if sniper wasn't just "you click they die". It's the most infuriating thing to walk out of spawn and just die instantly to someone half way across the map, that's not fun at all. I don't care how skilled the sniper is either it just feels incredibly cheap every time i die to one, at least to other classes i felt like i was out matched against, but against sniper i die and then "oop looks like i died again instantly at full health from something out of my control"

[@yuukiyoshizawa7007]

Sniper can "easily" spawncamp a team at distance just by hitting some shots. Some maps favor it a lot while others don't. As a Sniper Main, l'm not that good to reach this level at spawn camp since the enemy team can easily spam rockets, stickys or pipes at me, it will slow down and have to retreat. l don't want to talk about my team, they are mostly useless and don't give a damn about their Snipers, Engineers or even Medic. If the team has a brain, Sniper will surely be unstoppable.

[@mlgiyel3021]

@Alvi Syahri Well it's clear you get very lucky matches, because every few non-bot-filled games, I encounter some Anger Sniper who can hit me no matter how much I spin around, crouchjump, and strafe. And even if he isn't good enough to headshot me, there's still bodyshots. Heavy is the ONLY class that can't get killed by a full-charged bodyshot followed by a regular bodyshot, and Heavy is VERY easy to headshot.

[@sssswerth5323]

Guys, im sure OP didnt mean 'literally'. Point is, whenever you want to go fight in the battlefield you die from someone halfway across the map

[@tonydiemaccaroni5934]

Random crits be like

[@royalhydra9790]

Also I think sniper gets automatic crits with his machete

[@ashtongiertz8728]

14:08 woah, you're saying that making the weapon meant for long range use only viable at long range would make you want to use the weapon meant for mid-to-close range when fighting at mid-to-close range? Unthinkable.

[@flamingkittyumad]

except tf2 maps aren't big enough to have actual "long range". You'd have to seriously buff all secondaries if the rifle got nerfed, sniper smg is about as useful as engineer's pistol secondary, and jarate forces you into melee

[@ashtongiertz8728]

@@flamingkittyumad the distance between the 2fort battlements is "long range" according to the distance modifier. The fact that most class weapons start losing effectiveness on distances longer than the main spawn door to the opposing wall on 2Fort means that sniper doesn't need to be halfway across the map to be at long range. That said, I am perfectly fine with buffing Sniper's secondaries if it means he can no longer viably be played on the front lines without switching off stock.

[@TRRDroid]

My gripe with Snipers is that weapons for other classes which used to be OP just got nerfed to the point of being useless while his weapons basically never get nerfed and he gets to keep his OP crutch stuff

[@Lawlz4Dayzz]

Yeah id rather have Valve nerf him to the ground than be in the state he is in now. Theres been experiments that the game is overall better when sniper is removed, but id rather have him have a lower skill ceiling and higher skill floor.

[@JadeMythriil]

I feel they should add a glare from the snipers laser if they are aiming at you, kind of like how Battlefield 1 has lens glare to tell you immediately where the sniper is if you look in their general direction. This way you are alerted to their presence when they are aiming directly at you from the front and gives you time to react and make evasive maneuvers to throw off their aim.

[@marisanya]

Splatoon moment

[@skipperg4436]

Nah, you should know where the sniper is and where he is aiming if you are good at the game. The problem is that you just can't kill SoB. Another problem is that sniper can insta-kill you without aiming via quickscoping.

[@ExManiack]

"Garand style ping so the enemies know it's a good time to make a move" I think not. If I've learned anything from the internet, everyone will basically be creaming themselves for those few crucial seconds. EDIT: Oh he established that literally seconds after that section, premature comment D:

[@pacifistminigun3987]

can you blame us? XD

[@doctordoggo8604]

The problem is not “with” sniper, the problem is that valve nerfed all of snipers counters into the ground. The most major ones being the Ambassador, baby’s face blaster, caber, all of which pretty much useless for what they are intended for on add or literally cannot do it in the case of the ambassador.

[@smegmuhfondue3021]

it is with him

[@jveerf8573]

Damn that makes me feel sad R.I.P for all of this weapons

[@Technotoadnotafrog]

that's only further evidence of the point, though. they had to be nerfed because anything that "counters" sniper will "counter" everyone else even harder

[@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413]

pyro is literally useless now because of the shield

[@jveerf8573]

@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 wait what did you mean SPY? Xdxdxd

[@nofivefivesevenseven]

I think maybe a semi-transparent laser instead of just a dot would be good at alerting your team that there's a sniper. Not as much as MvM lasers, but still.

[@PRO100SashaX]

The worst part for me personally is that you just don't have a chance to fight back most of the time. You face any other class, you have at least some time to react. Shoot one rocket. Lob one pipe. Get one melee swing. Before enemy epic gamer deletes you that is. Even with reved up heavy with brass beast and crits active you have that window to do stuff and feel like you did at least something. With sniper, if they're op masters, you're just dead instantly. That's it, go to spawn. No even already predetermined fight for you. Any other insta-kill scenarios are one-time considering about equal game knowledge and skill. Sniper can just point on your head and boom you're dead. Range doesn't matter, it's kinda unconsistent when you're close but it's still possible to do so. And what can you do? Flank them? It's not like good snipers actually have tunnel vision, they look around and change their position constantly. Unless you're able to get really close to them without direct LOS, there is always a chance that this sniper just looks at you and kills you in a single moment. Nobody else can delete people instantly without any other mechanical requirements or preparations. Thank god quickscope is only insta kill for 5/9 classes (that is if we not considering overheal, which is kinda not ok since then it's 2 vs 1 scenario, add like another sniper and then it's insta kill for double quickscope), and even then pyro, demo and soldier are pretty much dead with 3/4 of their health gone, and heavy is definetly not the class to flank. Good snipers deny enemy team simply with their presence, and while engineers and medic to do that require preparation, sniper doesn't have any limitation by game rules save for charging shots which doesn't stop them at all and having LOS which like everybody else save for demo need to have already.

[@SunTzuSaidFight]

I think the main issue, in my opinion, is that even though he has a pretty high skill floor (outside of the absurd damage of bodyshots, actually landing those cross-map insta-kill headshots on moving targets can be rough) once you manage to hit that skill floor you find out you don't really have to climb up that high to hit the ceiling. you got, uh, situational awareness, accurately landing close-range quickscopes, hiding your dot so you're even more of a surprise than you usually are? but at that point the skill ceiling is just where you are at the skill floor but with all your weaknesses covered compare that to like, pyro, who has an absurdly low skill floor and is basically just going to kill one person and then die when the pyro player is at that skill floor, but pyro also has an absurdly high skill ceiling, to where fighting Gibusvision Pyro That Runs At You And Dies and Unusual-Wearing Nightmare Pyro That Rocket Jumps At You Using Your Own Rocket feel almost like fighting two entirely different classes meanwhile fighting a sniper at his skill floor and a sniper at his skill ceiling comes down to whether or not the close-range kill was from him throwing jarate at you and then using the bushwacka or him turning and deleting you instantly with a quickscoped headshot

[@moronribbons5774]

8:30 consider the huntsman too. Its way more effective if you're up close to the front lines where enemies are, and yet it has an even longer reload than hitscan sniper primaries and a smaller clip size too. Makes absolutely no sense balance wise.

[@ashtongiertz8728]

Right, the Sniper Rifle's ammo pool and fire speed should be lowered to match the Huntsman.

[@Breakaway-ic5gj]

Huntsman has a bigger head hitbox. A Scouts head when using the Huntsman is as big as a Heavy.

[@neurononymous]

@@Breakaway-ic5gj I think the fact you have to use projectiles kind of makes up for this. Sure I think the hit boxes are too big but it doesn't make it as easy as stock

[@ashtongiertz8728]

@@Breakaway-ic5gjthe head hitbox is the same size for every class.

[@sagoruzemo9557]

Sniper seems to have the age old competitive videogame issue of being a characther with an insanely high skill ceiling making him incredibly hard to master, so naturally, to compensate for such a hard to learn skill, the reward is so insanely high that it breaks the game for every other characther once the player actually gets to the point of being THAT good. (E.g: a lot of moba characthers, nurse in dbd, spacies in melle (mostly), etc...)

[@ashtongiertz8728]

Oh please, landing shots consistently isn't THAT hard to master.

[@bruhgaming15meleeisSOCOOL]

agree, but melee spacies aren't obscenely broken compared to the rest of the cast. both of them have losing matchups (debatably, i think fox/marth is even but its up to interpretation) and definitely have counterplay (unlike sniper lol)

[@return4887]

@@ashtongiertz8728 im not even good and it feels really unfair when i hit any amount of headshots

[@commscan314]

@@bruhgaming15meleeisSOCOOL Not to mention that the primary reason why Fox in particular is so widespread in top 100 player competitive Melee is because Hungrybox manages to centralize the meta around himself and his choice to main Jigglypuff, pretty much forcing literally everyone other than him to secondary Fox (the only character with a winning matchup against Puff) to have the potential to win against him.

[@bruhgaming15meleeisSOCOOL]

​@@commscan314 have u even watched melee in the past 5 years?? where is hbox centralizing the meta rn???? he hasnt been top 3 in years and even back during the hbox era its not like everyone was switching to fox cuz of him. that fuckass emplemon video has set non-melee-fan melee discourse back to the stone age istg. also marth beats puff harder than fox

[@draforgg5594]

"Anything Spy can do Sniper does better, Sniper does everything better than Spy."

[@jenokrivanszki7762]

2700dmg insta kill in 1 second sure ill would love to have it on a sniper rifle also please give us sniper mains a cloack ability so we can stand in a corner 24/7 also we need dead ringer so we can escape punishable scenarios thanks oh and also give us the revolver please so we can spamm when enemies get close

[@ToyFreddyGaming1987]

@@jenokrivanszki7762 ironic, the joke went by you like a cloaked spy

[@jenokrivanszki7762]

funny because i dont support the 24-7 cloacked spy in the corner sure lets have a time duration for the cloack but staying perma invis is just unfun to even play

[@HAKX5]

@@jenokrivanszki7762 LOL you just sung the song. "No he can't! Yes he can! No he can't! Yes he can, Yes he can, Yes he can!"

[@rowen616]

That's the one song I dislike because THATS NOT A GOOD THING

[@smegmuhfondue3021]

pyro: w+m1 , no skill sniper: m1 , absolute god

[@Gramer05]

🤓☝ "um ackscually it's m2 to scope and then M1 to shoot, so it's m2+m1 "

[@nosakatatsuya2391]

@@Gramer05 comedy gold

[@airhead7379]

Yeah but if you took away a pyros mouse and he had to turn his camera with the arrow keys he would still be just as effective

[@Game-ne5nb]

@@airhead7379 If the other team also had their mouses thrown away in a sewer then yeah, still effective.

[@LoraLoibu]

With pyro, you don't have to aim, just shake your mouse about With sniper, _you have to go for the head_

[@volts400]

Sniper is overpowered. He can only be effectively countered by anofher sniper. And a good sniper can wreck any other class in the game. "Low skill floor" is not a critera while deciding if something is overpowered...

[@mlgiyel3021]

Exactly, being countered by Scout is completely negated because a good team will just kill the Scout before he can get to the Sniper, and being countered by Spy is negated not only because awareness exists, but also because Sniper has THREE weapons practically designed to counter him.

[@michaeljonathan9715]

I think giving 0,5 sec unable to headshot after seeing enemy for the first time (reset every time the enemy died or enemy's present is not in sight for 5 sec) would be a great nerf but still make sniper viable like other 8 classes.

[@Underworlder5]

@@mlgiyel3021 let me guess: razorback (backstab proof), jarate (sees through invisibility) and shiv (bleeds, which sees through invisibility). might as well give sniper a flamethrower at this rate

[@mlgiyel3021]

@@Underworlder5 wouldnt be surprised if they gave him a hot SMG or fire Sniper Rifle

[@SerinitySack]

13:33 Honestly, I think sniper *should* be a slower paced class in combat, unless you’re using the huntsman. He’s too effective at all ranges and slowing him down a bit more would be an excellent way to nerf him in my opinion. I really like your idea of giving the sniper a hard reload, so either that or a much slower passive reload, lowered body shot damage, and *maybe* a slower wait for quick scope. It would give players a chance to make a move at long range, which is where he should be, and it would make him less effective at medium and close range. I generally don’t agree with the sniper style of gameplay in pvp first person shooters. It’s never fun to be on the receiving end and I’ve never played a game that didn’t make snipers feel like bullshit to play against.

[@ashtongiertz8728]

What's wrong with sniper is that it takes significantly more effort to kill him as a non sniper class than it takes him to kill you.

[@FizzieWebb]

10:00 In the Battlefield games, the way bolt action rifles tend to work is that if you have to manually descope after a shot to cycle the bolt, unless you've played enough to unlock a straight pull bolt for that particular rifle. Forcing the Sniper to release his scope manually and making the animation a little longer (ie: show him cycling the bolt open, actually slipping another round into the breech, and then cycling the bolt closed instead of just cycling a straight pull like he seems to have) make's each missed shot a painful experience. Even if each action of the animations is only a second long, it would take his reload time from the 1.5s stated earlier in the video, to 3.0s, double what it currently is. Additionally, you can add in a sound cue akin to the sound of a Garand mag being ejected, by making the sound of an empty casing being ejected play when the breech is opened. A metallic "Shlink" sound.

[@helpmymonitorisoff8838]

This is a really interesting balance topic, so I'm glad to hear another sniper's thoughts on it. My preferred solution to the problems with sniper is probably less drastic than some others though, which is to provide other classes with weapons designed to give them chances to counter snipers. There's also the more drastic crossbow- style damage rampup, but that could very easily go too far and make sniper boring to play.

[@osqywosqy]

Thats the opposite of balancing, fish hates the dangershield because its a fuck you to pyro, dont make fuck yous to snipers in order for balance

[@helpmymonitorisoff8838]

@@osqywosqy yeah I don't use that thing either. I'm happy with stuff like the Amby (which can 2 shot snipers) existing though, it's difficult to use effectively and has drawbacks.

[@benismann]

Wouldn't this weapons be like "fuck you spy/pyro" shields or just annoying crunch?

[@spoopaconhojitas3829]

@@helpmymonitorisoff8838 ah yes, the perfect counter to Sniper, putting another sort of Sniper in the game

[@helpmymonitorisoff8838]

@@benismann No, id be happy with a skillful long range Sidegrade though, I think the direct hit is probably a fair example of that.

[@DodgeThatAttack]

Honestly I think the main problem is just how fast he can eliminate multiple enemies I think if uncharged crits did like 100 damage and his reload was just a tad longer, he would be a lot easier to deal with. Just forcing him to charge a little bit to actually 1 shot people would force him to consider which shots are worth taking, and means quickscoping is mostly reserved for weakened enemies or setting up your teammates for a kill. As it is right now there is little penalty for missing since you can just take a new one instantly. It could even be worth giving sniper a full reload for every like 5 shots

[@trickerino]

Every time I run into an enemy Sniper, they're god-tier with hitting headshots. Fucking hate good Snipers

[@garytee8945]

If the decreased damage on bodyshot does happen, the Classic would become the Liberty Launcher of sniper rifles

[@SwedishSchizoCorgi]

0:27 There me, I was the heavy being stuffed. My name was changed by then. But good to see myself in a YT vid.

[@xuavrice2338]

When map design came up I was really hoping red’s first point on breadspace would come up. You can literally see into their spawn from like 1000m out.