[TF2] Just What Exactly Is Wrong With Spy? - A Balance Discussion

[@calebhughes6541]

personally, i feel like the biggest problem with disguises is that usually your team doesn't treat you like an enemy, case in point a week or two ago i was playing sniper and saw our spy on the opposite side of the map and to help him i pretended to try my hardest to headshot him and he was able to completely trick the enemy and get a pick

[@KyleLyre13]

Stuff like that makes all the difference in the world to a Spy

[@tinkerer3399]

Yes however that interaction is quite the niche situation. You are relying on being able to see your spy, not seeing the enemy (otherwise it would be better to shoot the enemy), and have the enemy already paying attention to your spy. AND on top of all that you are being distracted from your primary purpose of maintaining your sightlines. It can be a great help but you are looking at quite the combination of factors there pushing it into a very narrow niche.

[@saldol9862]

Sometimes I have to remind myself to shoot at disguised friendly spies and not heal them in front of the enemy as medic.

[@marcellpinter4031]

I always shoot at friendly spies when they are near the enemy

[@micahnightwolf]

disguise as enemy spy, you'll get spychecked by literally everybody more often.

[@joshuaminton7583]

Medic: Oh look a injured demo, better heal him fast with an arrow! Spy: 💀

[@lokkiirl4793]

LMFAO

[@ryancake42]

What is spy? What is Medic? What is demo? I been in coma for 20 years

[@georgegorvaniagerge7077]

@@ryancake42 +

[@bubumber9662]

​@@ryancake42they are us presidents

[@chaoticklutz3633]

The best thing I like to do in casual games with Spy is to make the enemy team paranoid as much as possible. When no one goes spy, go spy and constantly disguise/troll/fade away/sap/get kills as normal for a minute. Then don't go Spy for a while, before going back as Spy.

[@somerandomserbian7077]

this is just an optimized way to play Spy, to stop playing him for a bit

[@Appletank8]

vidoes of Spy players hiding in a corner plinking away with their revolver then running away is always very funny, especially if it somehow results in multiple people wasting their time trying to hunt down one random Spy

[@UNALLOYEDSLOP]

New spy unlock: paranoid schizophrenia

[@superexplosion5985]

Crazy how the best way to play spy is to play another class that isn't spy

[@Berry_Goosey]

This is what I'd use to do as well, lol. Install the paranoia and take advantage by swapping.

[@The86thplayer]

10:26 That wasn't a facestab, you actually preformed a frame perfect Wimble Womble stab. Very well done! That's quite impressive!

[@alexbertil2756]

Unironically that wasnt a facestab, use the . and , keys to go frame by frame and you can see the pyro literally look 180 degrees away from the spy. Im fairly certain this type of stab actually has a name (walking past someone quickly when they are walking towards you and then flicking to stab them) and it is quite viable if done fast enough.

[@davidarredondo2017]

​@@alexbertil2756 erm that'd be a Matador 🤓

[@user-tw2kr6hg4r]

@@davidarredondo2017 ackshually that's a frame perfect Wimble Womble stab 🤓

[@ME0WMERE]

@@davidarredondo2017 it wasn't an anything. The pyro just didn't register that there was a spy until it was too late.

[@Subject_GR33N]

@@ME0WMEREfax machine must’ve been especially slow during that timeframe ig

[@roshanyuvaraj6771]

At this point, Removing F2P text and voice chat is more of a buff to spy than a way to stop bot spam.

[@MaoRatto]

Isn't that the truth as I am a bad spy player.

[@JoNarDLoLz]

It's balancedly nerfed with those team highlights you see upon recently spawning. Holy shit thats a big nerf, I hate it.

[@MaoRatto]

@@JoNarDLoLz The things they need to fix: HIDE DISGUISED SPIES AS ENEMY TEAMMATES UPON SPAWNING! Fix the darn bugs for disguises as it would make it more fun to pretend to be all the classes. Extend the Utility of the Enforcer. Enforcer is a VERY FUN GUN, but situation. Spies guns are mostly generalist. For example The Diamond back is too much reward for too little downside! It should be stab or a worse damage penalty. Make it CRITS or NOTHING Ambassador is just great, but extend the range to reduce the usage of the annoying diamond back! Make it based around more skill and precision at longer ranges, nobody truly complained about the Amby's range before the nerf. It wasn't OP, I know it was to increase counterplay, but... Increasing the range would make spy players use it like the direct hit for soldiers. While stock is stock. I would love for more watch variations and quality guns.

[@genericdevtexture3661]

Removing voice commands from f2ps was incredibly unnecessary.

[@Hell_O7]

@@genericdevtexture3661 at this point, it's probably not wrong to say they're monetizing comms

[@ChissHansen]

One thing I think is the biggest problem with modern spy is that the spawning wallhacks let the entire team know if the spy is out of position with the rest of the team or if there are two players with the same name or your name or just acting weird. I think the spy should just be exempted from the spawning wallhacks even if he is disguised, sure it'll mean that if a teammate isn't highlighted it'll give away that he's a spy but at least it won't be broadcasting his location to everyone coming out of spawn.

[@notabear2614]

Yeah those are the worst. The spawn wall hacks basically makes spy trying to hide bad as unless your undisguised or disguised as friendly teammates you will be spotted real quick and make them super reliant on their invisibility a limited resource. You have less opportunities to time your plays

[@Capiosus]

real

[@humanharddrive1]

as a player who hates spy, I love this feature

[@Wiki1184]

I can’t even count the amount of times this wallhack thing let me screw over spies that probably would have got me coming out of spawn.

[@cominforyachips]

i just don’t disguise or disguise as a friendly scout and hide from plain sight.

[@KyleLyre13]

Spy suffers as a class because as the game and its playstyles evolved, Spy was given mostly half-baked unlocks that don't feel like they were thought out much if at all.

[@whoisanarnb]

"My favourite class is the Spy" - one Gaben's many lies

[@nathanmontgomery8650]

He'll id argue its equal parts that and how janky tf2 can be as a game from how old it is.

[@KyleLyre13]

@@nathanmontgomery8650 Kimd of? The decisions made are certainly outdated but a lot of that can and often is modified by community servers, like teammates body-blocking melee hitreg as an example

[@droppedcroissant4291]

Me with my backscatter >:(

[@Jazzmofo]

how did you comment this 18 hours ago?

[@ktk44man]

For a minute i thought "what exactly is wrong with spy" was referring to his actual character and I thought this was going to be a deep dive into Spy's psyche

[@CrackHeadGaming1029]

Now I need that

[@bleu4472]

I would watch that

[@redkite1908]

Sadly, he's French. It could be worse. He could be English.

[@dannerhoinowski9520]

@@redkite1908or even worse…. *American*

[@Homer_Noobson]

​@@dannerhoinowski9520Or even worser... *A Spy*

[@GiRR007]

Spy's problem is that enemies are more in control of his game play than he is. Spy out of all the classes is probably the most easily countered. He just has so little agency. Spy has to more so depend on enemies making mistakes rather than the spy himself being particularly good. At least more so than any other class. As you said "lack of consistency from things outside of the spys control".

[@kaden-sd6vb]

And even when everything else goes right, the spy can still get screwed if they're unlucky, and either get hitregged out of a stab or an enemy randomly turns around at the last second

[@ethandavis7310]

There is always opportunity for spy. No matter what enemies are doing, there are always back hitboxes in the game. If you play conservatively you can spend longer between kills as you'll be in the respawn queue for less time compared to a dps class. If the enemy team is playing in a manner that makes your spy extremely ineffective, then switch off. Spy isn't supposed to control his game; he takes advantage

[@GiRR007]

@@ethandavis7310 Just saying "there's always an opportunity" doesn't mean anything when you can never take advantage of said opportunity. Or that when you do take advantage of said opportunity the reward being not worth it vs all the effort it took to reach said opportunity. Saying "spy shouldnt be able to control the game" is like saying he shouldn't be a class at all. All classes should be able to control the game if the person playing is good enough. All the classes ideally should be just as effective as one another. But spy is literally at the very bottom.

[@The_Bottle_of_Scrumpy]

I would also add that spy has a lot of ways to make sure things go in his favor. watching the patterns of the enemy team, testing the hearing of them, and also staggering their respawn que. A spy has to keep a LOT on their mind all at once like escape exits, target priority, enemy respawn timers, metal and health pack control, and ubercharge control. While al of this is certainly daunting, with enough practice it becomes second nature as for every class. I will say the spy takes the most amount of mental energy for me to play efficiently out of all the other classes but i find it the most rewarding!

[@crazyabe4571]

Spy relies on the other team not having enough experience to know how to spot him, or counter him... problematically- TF2 is old enough to grab a drink in Cuba, meaning more than enough players can do exactly that.

[@CappnRob]

The movespeed and lack of "fake" actions ie reloading are the biggest banes here. Being able to toggle movespeed at will to close in on kills then slow back down to avoid looking obvious I think would be a great game changer in and of itself without being overwhelmingly so. It'll let a spy close in for a kill, and also if he's detected in a slow disguise, escape a bit easier as he puts his cloak on.

[@ebookie_meowda]

Spawnhacks and bugs too.

[@RdTrler]

Omg it'd be *hilarious* to see a Heavy suddenly start running at 107% when he thinks nobody's looking.

[@foreng3095]

In TF2 Classic Spy can hold Shift to move at his Spy speed when disguised as a slower class. I try sometimes to disguise as a heavy with (modded in on the server I'm playing on as a custom weapon) GRU and run, since people aren't used to Heavy being a potential spy.

[@emilytheimp]

Spy can fake reload, if you reload your weapon while disguised, it will play the reload animation of whatever weapon youre currently holding in your disguise to the enemy team

[@CappnRob]

@@emilytheimp the problem is accessibility. Spy has to have fired a round and not reloaded, and then you can only do it once.

[@wraithxd2458]

A humongous issue for Spy is the cost of spy-checking for the enemy team, a single M1 and there goes a spy. Pyro is good at this, but the AOE classes like Soldier or Demo (with his stickies) or classes with ammo to spare (which is EVERY class in the game) are also the bane of Spy.

[@davisdf3064]

Even Spy counters Spy through Spy-checking

[@starmaker75]

There also scout

[@The_Bottle_of_Scrumpy]

I have only had much of my gameplay through KOTH and payload so this might be different for other game modes but spy has the best chance at succeeding if he makes a play during the front line attack. usually theres not enough pyros to be both in the front and back of the fight meaning they need to leave one side open to enemy damage. Even if thepyro returns to the backlines and kills you that still means that they wasted time and your team can fire projectiles without the worry of a stray airblast halting them.

[@jamesproimos]

I kinda miss when there was friendly fire in beta. It made spy checking a gamble.

[@pauldaulby260]

I had no idea friendly fire was ever in the game. I wonder if spy was designed with that in mind as a balancing mechanic

[@sussy3778]

I have this one match in Process that I will never forget: We finally managed to push the enemy team into the last point after over being in a stalemate for over an hour, yet we still couldn't find a way to break through then, I decided to go Spy but instead of going for picks, I simply hid my self as a Sniper in the balcony at the top of the point and waited, when I saw my team pushing and that the enemy was stacking themselves in the objective I decided it was time to strike, I jumped into the point and got three backstabs (including their Medic), I was killed shortly after but my play worked, and my team was able to clean up the rest and take over the point, with them thanking me in the voice-chat for enabling their victory. I bring this moment because I feel it perfectly encapsulates what the Spy is meant to be: A tie-breaker! Spy suffers a lot for being designed with old TF2 in mind, stalemates happened more often in older versions of the game but nowadays, while it still happens, it's far less common and makes Spy struggle to find its role in the current fast-paced gameplay of TF2.

[@simplysmiley4670]

Yeah, considering Scout, Soldier and Demo, the most mobile classes, are the most popular and common to see too also doesn't really help Spy.

[@user-bkey]

i could see this, i usually play spy on payload and he's always not felt that bad to me because i've always helped pushes on the last point by sapping a sentry that was stopping everyone or by backstabbing medics, which is basically just acting as a tiebreaker

[@sussy3778]

@@user-bkey Pretty much, Spy is at it best when he is the deciding factor in a team-fight, not that different from a Medic's uber.

[@Consumpter]

If it werent for the leg bug demoknight would be the best disguise since a demoknight is not expected to reload, shoot, or charge straight into the enemy team even at full health

[@Dalek59862]

Never heard of this leg bug, please explain. Thanks In advance

[@Consumpter]

@@Dalek59862 spys disguise does not copy the boots that the demoknight is wearing so he appears to have no legs making it very obvious its a spy

[@TTI-x2v]

​@@Dalek59862 When disguising as an enemy who has the ali babas booties or the bootlegger equipped, Spy's disguise will sometimes be shown without legs, giving away the disguise

[@Dalek59862]

@@TTI-x2v jesus I was thinking maybe it had demo's normal legs but wow that is fucked

[@gudmansal3468]

@@TTI-x2v or sometimes, it just fucking gives the spy the primary weapon of the last person he disguised as, such as a fucking minigun

[@facepunch9665]

I’ve said for years that spy should be more of an infiltrator/disrupt or rather than an assassin. He should have the tools to get into the back lines and apply pressure on the enemies with revolver shots and the sapper, and only go for backstabs if the other team ignores him. I think if spy got a little more health (150) and some alternatives for the sapper that aren’t as class specific (maybe a concussion trap or something to draw enemy attention) he could play in a way that isn’t so reliant on backstabs to get value on a team

[@DashFlashTheLife]

This, but don’t take away anything he has right now. Simply buff weaker aspects

[@OmegaRC59]

Something that would be incredible for spy as a sapper replacement would honestly be like a short ranged grappling hook. Nothing anywhere near as good as the mannpower one of course, but just something that lets you get up to the flanks that traditionally only explosive jumping classes can use, unless you happen to hit a surf

[@Appletank8]

Honestly, you can probably already disrupt pretty well by popping off random revolver shots from a corner and running away. Only if the enemy team is sufficiently distracted by a push/pushing do you move in with your knife to weaken their hold.

[@Prplex.]

​@@OmegaRC59a sapper that could convert sentries to your team while it's applied could be cool at the cost it does no damage and that the engie won't get shot by it

[@pauldaulby260]

Imagine if a support class with support utility closer to no uber medic could also go for hi gh risk high reward picks. It could be a nightmare, but also it could be super cool and interesting.

[@moosedog___6372]

Spy has this sort of stigma where when you play him you’re forced to go for backstabs when a completely optimal play style is sometimes using your revolver (which is actually really good) to get ranged picks when needed and get away easier since you’re father away. It’s also good for your team if you don’t get a kill because when people see a spy they go full caveman “kill spy” mode and abandon the objective. If they don’t do that then you can keep pestering and finish off people who are low thanks to your ability to see enemy health.

[@OmegaRC59]

I practically almost play gunspy even on the stock watch, the revolver is amazing. And if you use the gun a lot, you start recognizing opportunities with it that no other class gets, especially since the revolver is quite good at literally any range, even long range where it's worth gambling on spread if you're relatively safe. 21 damage per max range shot is enough to kill a light class from across the map, after all

[@TheMuffinman191]

@@OmegaRC59first bullet after reload is fully accurate. The reload is the same time as spread reset.

[@TheMuffinman191]

AGREED A MILLION PERCENT. You have a gun, can go invisible and can see enemy hp. The fucking revolver out dps’s the standard shotgun too if you can aim. Play it like a flank class, it’s decent. Obviously theres still the issue that scout is just better at this.

[@Prplex.]

My favourite thing is baiting pyros really far from the objective then st some point I can leave and they'll spend another 20 seconds looking

[@RandomHandleLol1738]

Distraction spy is also pretty good. Pester people with the revolver from long range and make them chase you. If they ignore you, they just eat 126 damage (assuming all your shots land) which CAN kill a light class, and send most others running for a health pack.

[@manndoza]

I play spy by completely disregarding the chainstabs. In multiple instances in this video I see an attempt to chainstab or successful one then dying immediately. As soon as I get a backstab I cloak, change disguise, maybe get health, repeat and the results are completely consistent. It also makes spy a lot more fun to play rather than waiting out the respawn time half the match. A successful chainstab is done when you know exactly where the enemies are in the map or in the last minute of a push when the enemies are focusing on something else. Funnily enough the Kunai supports this kind of braindead gameplay so picking any other knife will not help you play spy "better".

[@ethandavis7310]

People don't realize that this kind of conservative spy gameplay is still very effective over the course of the match. Also that's how valve intended him to be played anyway

[@yoni7046]

this only works on bad players

[@insertname1837]

That's why Big Earner it's the best spy knife as it make him act like as spy was intended to act

[@deejorno]

@@yoni7046 some of the sweatiest most kill-aura players still fall for the shooting at someone else trick

[@silverdededestruction2197]

@@yoni7046 If you can consistently live for longer as spy, then the method would be more optimal Really, the problem with spy is that people who play him look for inspiration from the cracked out spy players instead of taking it slow. He has a gun and watch that give him higher cloak time for a reason, and it's to do the following Infiltrate, Observe, Act, Retreat, Repeat.

[@f-man3274]

2:38 I respectfully disagree, if a good Sniper can carry out all the team relying on his reflexes and being at distance nobody can fight back (except other Snipers and Spies), then a Spy is in a mutual symbiosis with his team: the more the team distracts the enemies allowing Spy more opportunities to backstab, the better the Spy can entertain the enemy team doing fun stuff with their behinds and allow the team to push or defend easier

[@CurlyHairedRogue]

Yeah, hard disagree from me as well, spy is so dependent upon his team to make a meaningful impact that about the only time it’s safe for him to actually _do_ anything is when his team is knocking on the enemy’s door.

[@GiRR007]

Literally every class is better with the team helping them though. Spy isn't alone in that nor is he really even the best at it honestly. Being team dependent isn't a good thing.

[@ScoopyMcEyeballEater]

Hard agree, best to wait for your team to push to go in so they are well distracted and you can go for either a priority pick or a chain.

[@calebbarnhouse496]

I mean the guy literally says as sniper without Frontline support all you'll do is get a couple picks, as if the best case scenario for spy isn't a couple picks

[@TJ-hg6op]

Spy is more of a support class than sniper will ever be.

[@Camthethe213]

another issue with spy is how unique he is to other games you can't really look at cod or overwatch for inspiration on how to change him. He suffers from being different

[@Mattchu44]

Sombra is overwatch is kind of like a cyber spy. Yes she does use a gun, but a spy could benefit from a hack type ability like sombra. Hack someone, so they can’t communicate or fire their gun for two seconds so you have an easy kill.

[@iminumst7827]

@@Mattchu44 Please don't speak on game design ever again. Thank you.

[@Mattchu44]

@@iminumst7827 the sapper is basically a hack. Good job explaining your point tho?

[@tranquoccuong890-its-orge]

@@Mattchu44 consider the setting also, OW is set in a time where electronic devices & digital appliances are widespread, taken for granted aspect of the setting & also the gameplay, which thematically allows a hacker to disrupt those appliances as a sabotage tactic TF2 is presumably set in the 1970s, where most of the technologies mentioned above are only in the realm of STEM fields and is covered in-game by the Engineer; the best another class can do is the Spy's Sappers, because there is not much technology left to sabotage to achieve the same level of sabotage Sombra has, the Spy would have to resort to straight up black magic, like Mesramus' magic for example

[@foreng3095]

Deceive Inc is kinda like what if all players were Spy.

[@vict632]

You can fake more than one reload as Spy. 1: Shoot one bullet before disguising 2: Disguise 3: Pull away your revolver (If you have auto-reload on) 4: Pull out your revolver when you need to fake a reload 5: Wait for the reload animation to *Start* (Or press R if auto-reload is off) 6: Swtich away from your revolver before it actually reloads. This works since the moment the animation begins for you, your disguise will "reload". You don't have to actually reload your revolver. Now you have infinite fake reloads! (Might be a bit glitchy) But yeah this I know this is WAY too convoluted and pressing R to fake a reload would be just so much better.

[@PotatoPatatoVonSpudsworth]

If we were still getting items, I think Spy would SERIOUSLY benefit from having sapper slot expanded to a "general sabotage" slot. Let him throw down a sensor that let reveals nearby enemies through walls, decoys that look like players on your team, or a flashbang trap to catch retreating players.

[@bardofvoid174]

I actually had an idea of a sapper-slot item that (as the gist of what it'd do) would basically disguise an enemy teammate as a your-team spy for a bit to cause chaos on the team as well as be a decoy for yourself; maybe matching your own disguise status so for example if you're disguised and place it on a scout, the scout would suddenly have spy speed and never look like they shoot, and if you're undisguised, would look like a shooting or stabbing spy for a bit until their team has "killed" them (shoot them until they would've killed the hypothetical spy so they return to normal) or until enough time has passed.

[@PotatoPatatoVonSpudsworth]

@@bardofvoid174 | Altering speed wouldn't work, because it'd immediately tell the player they'd been turned into a decoy, alerting them to the presence of a spy. In general this is a very interesting idea! It'd have to function as some sort of trap or ranged tool though, because if it required Spy to be close to the target to apply, it'd almost always be less effective then just a regular backstab.

[@bigdapramirez6157]

I'd like to see this as well. I saw a sapper concept awhile ago that gave it more sapper damage but less sapper health, meaning it could be destroyed by a single hit. A throwable teleporter or a smoke bomb would also be a cool idea, or a deployable trap that slows down enemies significantly and buys time for your team. It would also be cool to see a sapper that is a stick of dynamite, dealing no damage to the sentry while the timer is ticking but still disables the sentry. Then when the bomb goes off it destroys the building and does explosive damage to anyone nearby, but the downside could be it takes a bit longer than the normal sapper or that it has less health or that it has a deployment cool down

[@DivineBanana]

Honestly a decoy would be amazing, like in halo 3. It just creates a fake copy of you that runs in a straight line for a short while then disappears. This way you can create a distraction without immediately dying.

[@Jonas-Seiler]

Give him two slots of that, let him pick any two sabotage slot weapons

[@perochialjoe]

I think the biggest issue is that Valve clearly put most of their efforts into trying to discourage people from playing Spy than encouraging them to. He's already a hard class where skill for the most part doesn't matter. But then add in the fact that almost every class has some form of Spy counter (particularly the ones he's meant to counter) and how the majority of his loadouts are worthless and you've got the most scuffed, unfun class in the game. He's a lot of fun when he works but 99% of your game will be spent doing nothing but trying to set up a flank, getting behind the enemy team, then somebody turns around for literally no reason and spychecks you.

[@powdereyes2210]

*to*

[@Loner098]

"My favorite class is the Spy." - Gabe "Gaben" Newell

[@oldassaccount9157]

Skill doesn’t matter, it’s just that any skill floor and ceiling category has both at the highest

[@ownedpilot4324]

I was imaging a disguise kit for spy that allow him to disguise as a map prop. This can potentially be very funny since boxtrot spy exists and is surprisingly affective.

[@silverdededestruction2197]

genuinely would work out pretty well considering that props are much more difficult to notice if they feel right

[@defensivekobra3873]

how would you program this functionally tho? Would you pick from any prop object in the game, regardless of size? Would each map have a "palette" of items you can disguise as? Will you have to change your own rotation to change the rotation of the object, thus forcing you to look away from the enemy to be effective? Would it enable third person when disguised so that you can enshure convincing placement?

[@ownedpilot4324]

@@defensivekobra3873 In my vision, there will be 9 props total the spy can disguise. 1 of them will always be a dispenser. The other 8 will be some map props that has similar volume as a spy. 3 crates, 3 rocks, 2 vegetations usually. Standing and crouching disguise will be different. The disguise will only work when the spy is not moving. But the spy has 3rd person view during disguise. The player can use A&D to adjust prop rotation. W&S to move and remove disguise for a pick. Disguise can be pre applied but will only be effective when not moving.

[@chpsilva]

@@ownedpilot4324 Nah, with time people would memorize most of the map props and just spy check them with fire or rockets.

[@thegreatautismo224]

@@chpsilva Another option is still nice

[@grayanimate7166]

Always had a couple weapon work shop ideas in my head that leaned into the support aspect A knife that doesn’t back stab, but instead “paints” the target as the opposite team, and temporarily enables friendly fire to and from the target, especially for the sentry auto aim. Gives up the backstab pick itself in exchange for (potentially) causing disruption and chaos. Likely a paintbrush itself instead of a knife proper. A non damaging, nearly silent dart gun which doesn’t remove disguises. Giving up damage, it applies the wall hack see through effect, allowing the spy to actually be a proper spy instead of an assassin; let your team know priority targets or what’s behind the walls. A cloak replacement in a similar vein to the dead ringer, where instead of faking one’s death, they set up a decoy to attract fire or set up ambushes. Effectively, the hologram from halo reach/Titanfall. Less personal survivability but far more planning and cunning, and allows some control over the battles. Or maybe instead of replacing the cloak, it’s a replace my for the disguise kit

[@chpsilva]

I like the "patsy knife" idea.

[@mariustan9275]

Honestly these all sound really fun, especially the decoy ones. Since teammates see disguised friendly spies as putting on a paper mask, imagine if decoys to teammates looked like scarecrows or something Spy pulled out of hammer editor. He really be using ninja tactics. Also for the making people through walls I had an idea of adding that specifically to add that to the ambassador on headshot. It gives the ambi an additional use and also rewards headshots for marking through walls which is really powerful, which fits the skill requirement for headshots.

[@CrackHeadGaming1029]

Yes

[@DinnerForkTongue]

The dart pistol in question is the Sleeper Agent. I remember it well. I also liked the Welrod.

[@Brandon-1996]

I like the sonar dart gun as a knife replacement the best.

[@CuddlyTheMadElite]

Here is some tips for playing as Spy -Spy has a lot of mechanics that aren’t mentioned like being able to switch weapons for your disguise. If you use a Medic disguise, whip out your sapper and press B so you have your Medigun out. If you use a Spy disguise, make sure to switch between revolvers and knives which ever better suits the scenario. -That being said, also be aware of where you are with your disguise and what you’re doing. You need to act your part and not make it obvious you’re a Spy like you were in these clips. You just rushed towards enemy backs. This part basically requires you to also learn every class before you can even play Spy. -Decloaking makes sounds and can be softer if you decloak behind a wall or when a lot if noise is being made. -Like before you should decloak when the enemies are distracted with your teammates. -If you do get a backstab and feel like you can’t chain stab, cloak immediately and run away until they stop spy checking or you’re in the clear. You and juke them out with Stock by abusing the few frames where you’re transparent but visible. You can do same with C&D a little but it’s better to hide on a prop or something.

[@-AAA-147]

This. I feel like Fish (and many others) really underestimate Spy's tool-kit and think of him too much as the "backstab class" instead of what I think he's really intended to be: "the cleanup class". His revolver and ability to see enemy health can let him pick off low health enemies and be surprisingly good in a 1v1 against most classes. His knife lets him whittle down a horde on the frontline or a pesky flanker. His disguise kit (if acted well with) can fool even the most seasoned players long enough for him to make a play. Spy is the weakest class, but that doesn't make him bad.

[@xatime2833]

​@@-AAA-147I disagree. I'm a spy main, and even I can see that he just doesn't work against experienced players. The problem with spy is that fundamentally, even if someone is distracted, the moment you kill that someone you will die most of the times. Experienced players play with headphones, and a backstab creates a loud noise that can easily be heard. One person turning around literally shuts your chain stab instantly, and no amount of waiting can fix that. Also, his disguises can fool experienced players, but only for the first few times. They will eventually just spycheck everyone regardless of how well u act your disguise. Sure, spy can do well. But only against either an incompetent team, or a new team. An experienced team shuts spy so easily, that sniper is just better in every possible way than spy.

[@-AAA-147]

@@xatime2833 That's why YER is my fav knife. Switching off of Spy for a bit or doubling down and focusing on distracting the enemy team can be effective in their own right. Spy isn't all about the frags, chainstabs and trickstabs are situational.

[@CuddlyTheMadElite]

@@xatime2833 If you get a backstab, the best thing you honestly should do is immediately cloak and get out.

[@inkubus6192]

Or just play Sniper, and get the same out of one click.

[@mrcosmos6986]

in regards to the tier list i feel like pyro has more versatility and applicability in his uses compared to heavy, whose defense role is kind of stationary and done by other classes without the penalty of being painfully slow. heavy's more situational, while pyro has the tools like the flare gun, stock flamethrower, powerjack to go toe to toe with soldiers and demos, and is also a good close-range sentry buster with the dragon's fury. besides that good video

[@yurifairy2969]

Yeah Pyro should absolutely be in B tier with Sniper and Engie. I don't think he's as strong as them but he's WAY stronger than Heavy.

[@massgunner4152]

My beef with Pyro is that it punishes you for not playing stock flamethower but also punishes you for playing the stock shotgun, so people believe pyro is designed to spam flareshots after using your MAIN weapon for 0.2 seconds and only use it for the airblat or spychecks.

[@mrcosmos6986]

@@massgunner4152 how does it punish you for using either of these? stock shotgun is a nice burst option for if you don't want to rely on a single-shot weapon like the flare, and the dragon's fury and backburner serve as decent sidegrades

[@massgunner4152]

@@mrcosmos6986 because everyone hates you if you don't relly on combo spam, and is apparently a capital sin to not constantly defend yourself with airblast.

[@mrcosmos6986]

@@massgunner4152 actually it's kind of the opposite, a lot of people dislike airblast spam nowadays

[@DreamlessMemory]

Sadly, this video falls into the trap that a lot of Spy players fall into: hyper-focusing on sapping and backstabs and very poor target selection. Unless it's for a really important strategic reason, a Spy should not be putting themselves into a situation where they don't have a way out. The revolver is a lot more powerful than people give it credit for and for over a decade one of the top tips for new Spies is really just to use their gun more. Why risk a backstab when a single shot or two on a damaged enemy will do the trick? Why go in for a sap when you can gun something down safely at a distance?

[@giahuynguyenkim6389]

Basically, watch Jontohil2's Spy Psychology, yes?

[@meowmew-]

The revolver is okay, but I feel like it has a lot of issues that it debatably doesn’t really need, like the major accuracy falloff on successive shots. It’s a primary weapon that’s only slightly more powerful than most secondary weapons; even Medic’s syringe gun is better in a head in fight, assuming they don’t just use you as an ubersaw punching bag.

[@leonardohonorato3652]

The radar idea for another unlock for sapper is actually a great! The TF2 community have so much to add to this game that im shocked valve just don't add those to the game

[@TheAbyssoftheMind]

I want to see a full analysis of the changes you've made on the rebalance server and what they've caused. What worked? What doesn't work? What'd you iterate on? Any knock-on effects? Etc. I love getting analysis like that!

[@GeorgeCowsert]

Here's an idea. Buff the sapper to work gainst health and ammo packs, downgrading them. It'd make the Spy's support role far more subtle yet impactful.

[@ViciousVinnyD]

you can just take them though, and benefit from having your cloak and health refilled to the enemy's detriment

[@67tedward]

Sombra moment.

[@Helperbot-2000]

@@ViciousVinnyD yeah lol, its the same kind of problem as many suggestions for alternative backstabs also suffer from; its pretty much just better to backstab them instead

[@ne0ndreamer]

it would be interesting if the Spy could replace health kits with poisoned variants that damage enemies The texture may be slightly different, such as changing the color of the cross or the cans itself, so that attentive players can avoid poisoning, and inattentive ones will be punished

[@PotatoPatatoVonSpudsworth]

To fix "Spy Syndrome," I think Spy would REALLY benefit from a MUCH faster move-speed while cloaked. It'd give Spy players the freedom to look for the right places to uncloak, and let them make safe picks more frequently. That'd give the class the same reliability found with Sniper, and really lean into the secret assassin "everywhere at once" feeling.

[@StilvurBee]

change decloak noise to the one when you spawn as special infected in l4d

[@dr.infernous9342]

TF2 Classic has a watch that does this, called the L'escampette. however it does have half the cloak duration, making for less distance but allowing agressive gameplay.

[@iminumst7827]

I like this idea, my only issue with it is how it would only increase the "random" feeling of Spy because it becomes so much easier to accidentally bump, but I still think it's worth testing.

[@foreng3095]

@@dr.infernous9342 It's also loud as fuck.

[@somebodyspecific2410]

The problem with spy is the janky backstabs. I am not upset when I get stabbed, I'm upset when I get "backstabbed" while facing the spy. He is so fundamentally broken from a technical stand point that it's better to have him excessively weak.

[@TJ-hg6op]

Then there’s me who clearly backstabs the enemy and they don’t die.

[@kaden-sd6vb]

​@@TJ-hg6opthe duality of a luck-based class

[@benito1620]

Sometimes Spy backstabbing you while standing 10 meters in front of you, sometimes you can stab the same stationary heavy 4 times before it finally registers.

[@Prplex.]

I mean yeah sometimes I have a stab where I have to apologise in chat because it should never have killed him. On the other hand unless you know how to abuse the hitboxes really well i find I have more moments where I'll butterknife someone's spine and that's really annoying, especially when using big earner or kunai

[@bitcidic]

wholeheartedly agree. When I get backstab, I’m usually like “damn, I should’ve been more attentive to the situation”

[@hbgames17]

One of my least favourite things about disguising is how you show up on the respawn "wallhacks" that're built into the game, so if you're in a weird spot near the enemy spawn then you can't disguise to act like you'd also respawned and are heading back to the front line. I'd change it so if you're a disguised spy you don't show up like that in the spawn "wallhacks", which would mean if you're seen disguised without them when they should be there it'd still be easy to tell, but your hiding spot wouldn't be given away by it.

[@ShakerSilver]

I would say he does the best similar to Sniper when the game slows down - however for Sniper, he's the best at keeping the game slowed down by stuffing attempts to push through a choke, while Spy is one who helps break a stalemate by getting a key pick or sap to help his team push through. In that token, I would disagree he doesn't care for the state of the game or his team, as you said yourself the sapper is probably more effective in helping your team take down a sentry rather than solo destroying it.

[@Sleepy_Cabbage]

To handle pyro, i think a great 'secret mechanic' which tf2 has, would be to make spy decloak faster when inflicted with status effects, so when a pyro hits you with afterburn, you get the chance to fight back

[@drumstick9302]

Spy doesn't really have the dps to fight a pyro that's already started shooting at him, and hed be losing his resistance from after burn for doing so

[@Sleepy_Cabbage]

@@drumstick9302 its atleast something yknow, afterburn resistance doesnt mean much if you can't fight back

[@drumstick9302]

@@Sleepy_Cabbage well still, fighting back dosent really help if you're already half health and zero way to kill senor pyro, it might be better to just runaway cloaked

[@Sleepy_Cabbage]

by the very list you'd have an additional option in a battle, either run away with the resistance bonus or go all in @@drumstick9302

[@jakehildebrand1824]

​@@drumstick9302as a pyro main, I can confirm running away is the spies best option.

[@mattd1466]

Spy is pretty powerful when it comes to having fun, the game wouldnt be the same without him

[@sergeantsalad]

Watched this a bit late but I thought I might as well put in my 5 cents as a comp player towards a few of your points. I have only played spy up to advanced rgl highlander as he is not my main. It's not in perfect order corresponding to the video, just when I thought of it 1. I like that you pointed out that spies have access to kills that snipers don't (behind corners and such) and that spies' multi kill potential is much higher. 2. I heavily disagree with the luck aspect you've inserted. There are times where it sucks that a guy turned around but that is not unlucky the majority of the time in my experience, that means the spy didn't go in at the right time which is a huge part of the skill ceiling of spy. If spy was so much luck then we wouldn't see a large skill gap between bad and good spies. But there is that huge gap. 3. Spy is only played in highlander not solely because he is weak but because he isn't a generalist. Pyro, heavy, engy, sniper, and spy are all also seldom seen in sixes (the other big format) for the same reason. 4. I disagree with your point about how dying to a spy sucks because you were just playing the game and was punished for it. Spy is part of the game and if you died to him it's either because he went in at a good time because you were preoccupied or you did a poor job positioning and/or you were not paying attention. For example, a sniper on first upward standing on the hill over the cave is more likely to be stabbed than one on playground or on the wooden ramp surrounded by his team. 5. Pyro does not hard counter spy. A spy can play around even a very good pyro. TF2 maps are big, pick another one of the 12 players. I'm sure the pyro isn't checking for his whole team all the time especially when he's preoccupied taking defensive ubers, reflecting spam, stopping bombs, etc. Play pyro in a few top level product pugs and it is very hard to stop spy and do all your other duties (unless you're rolling the enemy team) 6. I don't think the kunai is op even in casual. I would argue the big earner is actually objectively better for playing spy if all you care about while playing spy is having the highest impact possible. Kunai allows you to chain stab and live against less skilled players but the big earner lets you chain stab decent or even top level players cause you're so fast and it lets you get away super consistently as long as you have a plan and decent mechanics (and often the best thing a spy can do for his team is stay alive). Any class that should be able to consistently 1v1 a spy can still pretty commonly 1v1 a spy with 200 health (scout, soldier, pyro, etc) and the 70 starting health makes getting in harder. An engy (without sentry), medic, and sniper should not be confidently 1v1ing spys of similar skill levels regardless if they have 125 or 200 health. 7. It is true that at the high level of competitive comms makes it harder for spy. But in the same way, a good spy will get plenty done because he also has those comms to set up pushes/sacks which stop people from looking for you so you can go for stabs. Also the info you can get as an invisible person behind enemy lines is crucial to how your team plays. 8. About the part where you say the sniper is trying to quickscope while a spy isn't trying to get a stab and it's just random: A spy who has his knife out stabbing you is trying to get a backstab/trickstab in the same way that a sniper right next to you quick scoping is trying to headshot you. There is luck involved in both cases I'd say. Both are effected by ping and both scale with skill level. Sure, facestabs are cringe but honestly don't happen as much as people say. 9. I think getting a sap off is pretty darn easy. If a single other enemy is shooting the engy/sentry you can just do it most of the time. If it was so inconsistent, it wouldn't be a huge part of how you push in payload highlander. 10. As a closing thing (holy long comment) I'd say that spy is one of the most unique characters and it's things like him that make tf2 so unique. In tf2, most people aren't very good. You as a youtuber that's played the game much more than the majority of players are going to be much better than the average player. This means sniper is going to feel even stronger in your hands because there aren't usually spies as good as you shutting you down but I'm sure you've had games where it just felt like you couldn't get much done as sniper because there were just 1 or 2 spies that kept you in the gray screen. That is spies impact. He is the ultimate anti carry.

[@sergeantsalad]

TL;DR cause my lord long comment: I don't think spy is luck based because his skill his based on timing and coordination. A pyro only hard counters spy if he has nothing better to do in the game. In comp, spy's team having coordination/comms counterbalances the enemy having comms. Spy feels weak at times because he is an all or nothing class and because he is commonly compared to sniper (one of the strongest classes when in the right hands in the right situation). Spy has a lot of strength for the sole purpose of killing snipers and medics in the same way an assassin in a moba gets it's strength from killing their enemy's glass cannons.

[@bozo6049]

I don't play spy to win, I play spy to have fun evading and fooling my opponents

[@PegasusBrill]

An idea I always had was maybe spy could have a dedicated button to do some disguise based things that could also improve their mobility in some cases. Like maybe it'll drain the cloak meter depending on who they're disguised at. Scout would let them run at full speed, Soldier would drain the meter entirely but you can perform a rocket jump with a risk of revealing yourself if you're disguised as a soldier with a direct hit or something. Pyro would let out a burst of harmless fire, making it look like you're spy checking. Heavy could look like they were revving their gun. Demo could do a sticky jump like soldier, though again, weapon choice may compromise identity. Engineer could pull the tool box out. Medic would put out a fake medibeam. Sniper could raise the scope. and Spy would cloak as normal. I don't know how balanced or effective that could be, but it was something I thought could be cool.

[@cloudynguyen6527]

I love the idea. It could be its own PDA item though the rules are too specific for each class. I suggest making the rules more streamlines so you don't end up with feature creeps.

[@cloudynguyen6527]

Based on your idea, I decide to make it a revolver idea instead of the disguise kit PDA. Stats -25% damage. (!) Shooting while disguise: does not break disguise and creates fake bullets or projectiles based on the current disguise class. Pressing reload will make the Spy reload once so be careful with how many fake shots you create. + Pyro, Heavy: always default to secondary, otherwise, default to shotgun. + Medic: same as above but can create a fake beam. + Rest of the classes: always default to primary.

[@grfrjiglstan]

I can’t wait for “Just What Exactly Is Wrong With Soldier? - A Balance Discussion”. “Nothing. He’s balanced just fine.” _video ends_

[@ethandavis7310]

It's actually insane how well soldier is balanced. Yeah he's probably the lowest skill floor character but I can't think of any ways in which he's overpowered.

[@ihavenoidea598]

Lowest skill floor is medic

[@Brandon-1996]

Generally? Yeah, he's good. I haven't played for awhile, but I'd imagine a couple of his weapons could use slight rebalancing. The direct hit was always annoying to me. I liked the bison before it was ruined.

[@toastyboi8737]

I think hintshot puts it best when he states, "spy works best when the teams are balanced" When your team is winning, it becomes harder to be effective because your team is too good, that even you can't keep up. When your team is losing, let's be honest, you're not gonna be able to create much of an opening for your team as spy.

[@Voxeril]

Spy needed more uhhh "Spy" like unlocks like tech tricks etc rather than the evolution into funny ninja

[@llmkursk8254]

Honestly, the sapper radar is amazing because it lets you do the Highlander CCTV camera function nonverbally!

[@goodlordbrian5365]

I think that just has a really high skill floor, arguably the highest. For example to get behind the enemy as a spy you have to maintain cloak, follow a path that allows you to pick up ammo packs while remaining undetected and not bumping into anyone. No other class has to do that, the skills required to be a good spy aren't transferable to the other classes and vice versa. And in order to be good at disguises you HAVE to have a fundamental understanding of how the other classes work, which again, no other class has to do.

[@RdTrler]

Medics *do* have to understand how the other classes work too, since he's relying on them to do damage in his stead. Mainly it's a matter of him reading everybody's skill levels and playing the match-ups in his head on whether he should follow a Soldier into a tight spot that'll win the game, or abandon that Soldier because he can't game. But you're right, Spy has to know the classes. Medic just has to know skill levels.

[@goodlordbrian5365]

​@@RdTrler And I would argue that its a lot easier to know skill level than the classes, cause to figure out the former you just look at the scoreboard, but for the later you have to have played the game and each class extensively.

[@cfctheepicgamer8119]

The Sly 3 venice music during a spy video took me right back in time, brilliant choice.

[@iminumst7827]

My Ideal "Spy Update" (just balances) All knives EXCEPT kunai get silent kill backstab perk. YER gets it's cloak drain penalty removed to compensate. Disguised spy can fake reload with R. But for weapons with no clip like Sniper rifle or Heavy you can use it to simulate revving or scoping. Various spy disguise bugs fixed yadda yadda. Add damage falloff to ALL revolver crits to be fair to the ambassador. Diamond Back: - Remove storing crits, and replace with mechanic that gives Spy a few seconds of kritz after backstab (like KGB) Remove the bonus point you get for backstab kills. Score should be a reflection of effectiveness not style. Remove that see teammate outlines on spawn thing so disguised Spies don't get wall hacked by recently spawned players. An in-game spy tutorial would be great, because it would help noob spies catch up, but it would also help new non-spies understand what spy is, thus slightly reducing the oppressiveness Spy has on new players. Make melee hit-reg for all classes ignore teammates. (With the whip as an exception) This would be a fantastic update, but it wouldn't be perfect. Mainly because I think the concept of backstab in a game with no turn-rate limit is innately flawed. And yet, a turn-rate cap would ruin the game for so many classes. And a total backstab removal would be too disruptive. So what I said above is about as good as they can do IMO. New spy weapons would be cool, I got to say though, please for the love of god NEVER add a support tool that reveals enemy locations through walls. Turning a corner and both players being surprised is a HUGE aspect of how TF2 encourages natural fights, if players both know where each other are but can't hit each other through walls, then that encourages extremely passive play. Tactical shooters like Valorant have wallbangs and vision obscuring abilities to counteract this, TF2 doesn't. Enemy detecting abilities belong no where near a game like TF2.

[@Pseudo_Notfound]

Disguises are underrated, you just need to act more like an enemy and not a spy. When I play spy, I don't play aggressive, I wait by acting as an enemy and I look for a good kill. And in this case, disguise are very strong

[@simplysmiley4670]

Unless it's match number 345873568 where enemy players will spycheck everyone and anyone *just because they can.* There is no downside to shooting your teammate in TF2, especially when outside of direct combat.

[@Pseudo_Notfound]

@@simplysmiley4670 Maybe but do you spycheck anyone you see? Spycheck cost time, and check everybody on your road is very long. Also If you don't move when somebody (expect pyro) shoot you there is a big chance they stop before killing you.

[@Underworlder5]

@@MadWatcher and for anyone without a flamethrower? disguised spies are not exactly supposed to mingle among their enemies outside of battle, but evade suspicion during the heat of battle long enough to do their job. very few people spycheck that fervently in the middle of a fight

[@douglas8604]

@@simplysmiley4670 Good spies have to take advantage of situations where spy checking is impossible or when players are tunnel-visioned into a task, such as when they are fighting enemy players, making an escape or going for a health pack. You can fool them for just long enough to get a backstab, but obviously you can't fool enemy players for very long; disguises are extremely situational. I would even say that you're not even actually fooling them, it's just that in these situations your brain simply doesn't immediately register the disguised spy as a threat.

[@purplehaze2358]

Whenever I get backstabbed by a spy, I'm not even angry about it; I'm just disappointed in myself.

[@Maethendias]

"if you want to PLAY optimally there is no reason to play spy unless you ENJOY playing spy" i swear to god do i have to explain whats wrong with this statement? it sums up the whole video too lmfoa

[@Yosif3]

This video is completely idiotic

[@firesniperbullet2]

the class is meant for 1 stab and retreat thats why you get 2 pts per backstab and a gun to pick people off & retreat

[@john-johnvonjohn]

Consider using spys primary weapon as a primary weapon and use the knife only when it is more advantageous to do so. Then you can keep your distance more which gives you time to cloak away if you are chased.

[@carlparsons7288]

I'm going to get a lot of backlash for saying this, but I personally think spy is much stronger than people give him credit for.

[@Avabees]

"free mares click now" popping up on my screen at 2:07 dealt me massive psychic dmg

[@Davtwan]

The other problem is that backstabs require a lot more knowledge than the casual player thinks. That sounds silly right? Just go behind the guy and click. Well, the issue is that the “back” is opposite of the player’s camera **not** where the back is on their model. If they’re doing an action that pivots their body but keeps the camera looking in the same direction, then their “backside” hasn’t actually moved. You have to learn the intricacies of player models, fight against the instincts of aiming for the model’s back, and do all of this while dealing with melee registration and lag interpolation. Yeaaah...

[@RTRC_2012]

I never knew this, that explains so much. 😂

[@G.r.e.g.g.l.e.s]

15:22 Pyro vs. Spy isn't one just of the worst examples of a hard counter in the game; It's one of the most prime examples of a hard counter in GAMING.

[@ethandavis7310]

I think our brains are poisoned from too many spy frag montages. Playing spy very conservatively can net you the same match results as a pocketed power class in many cases. Obviously the effectiveness is different as your picks are different from those of a power class but that's good as it allows you to choose what your team needs more in a specific situation. Soldier is my main but I often switch to spy for a life or two to try and stop med ubers or take out teleporters. Playing spy for a full round is sometimes my choice because my team has enough power that my thinning of the ranks a little gives us the edge to win. And my score at the end of these rounds is usually comparable to the best players on my team. Spy doesn't need to be any stronger, people just need to lower their expectations of insane chainstabs and play smarter. Also nerf the DR lmao.

[@Prplex.]

I think the difference is that to topscore as soldier you need maybe 200 hrs on him max whereas with spy you need like 200hrs minimum. I've got upwards of 70 hrs on him and have maybe topscored like 2 or 3 times whereas soldier and demo who I've got like 60 on I've topscored countless times

[@barnyardman6457]

​@@Prplex.That's a non-issue. Some things are just going to be harder to get the hang of.

[@Eddie-yv1ix]

Conservative spy is a spy at his strongest honestly. A spy thrives off their teammates being the center of attention. And is effective against tanky enemies like overhealed power classes, especially when your team is holding the front lines or pushing. Spy frag montages are honestly overrated in my opinion. Sadly with that being said, he still needs some buffs and fixes. A personal proposal is to increase his base movement speed to around 120% as well as fixing back hitbox jank.

[@ethandavis7310]

@@Eddie-yv1ix 120% base movement speed is a psycho take, but something that allowed you to catch up to enemies when you have a slower disguise could work. Maybe a sprint mechanic that is available in short bursts with cooldown

[@hubanimations]

the mod, TF2C, has a few things that make spy a better class. One, there is a VIP game mode that turns Red spy into one of the most powerful classes because he can complete RED team's objective really easily. Which is getting a backstab on the VIP. Secondly, spies can press shift and move at their normal speed while disguised as a slower class, so if you need a boost of speed to catch up to a target while disguised as heavy, you can do so. Thirdly, Tranq gun is just fun.

[@Alexco7999]

One problem I see with most people using spy is that they treat the class as if they were using any other tool to get kills, that is, just stab random people you happen to be lucky to encounter. In other words, players tend to just go after easy kills when, in reality, the class encourages stealth and thought in order to get important picks that are not so easy but are key to the fight. What I mean is spies should actually bother to pay attention to the state of the game and judge which player or players are currently causing the most trouble and which are not worth the hassle. Instead of stabbing an f2p wall-looking Heavy at the bottom of the score, which could blow your cover needlessly, try getting that medic that is keeping the enemy team whole, or that demoman spamming your engineer's sentry, or literally anything else being an actual threat for your team. You might also get spotted, but dying after eliminating a key opponent is far better than killing a clueless player over and over just for a juicy 20 killstreak.

[@reniculous1559]

Sometimes i swear this guy flips a coin every time he starts recording and if its heads its one of the most agreeable videos you've ever seen on the topic but if its tails its the most headass take on the site

[@IBarkForMakima]

I love this comment just because it made me laugh, I'm sick of all the AI in the comment sections going "This is truly one of the video of all time," or "I can feel it coming inside of me."

[@weedGato]

feels like every tf2ber

[@connorfries8297]

Personally, the way I’d change spy is to give him another weapon slot that I would call “tricks.” The trick weapon slot would allow spy to have a cool passive, and the thing is, all of the tricks would be pretty bad. Granted, it’s still a free extra item, so it would help, but they should do very little overall. The tricks should be minor things, many things you mentioned in the video: one that allows for reloading while disguised, one that makes backstabs silent, one that makes him pierce all damage resistances, and minor things like that. These tricks would be very niche, but if you get away with it, it would be very rewarding, and a good spy would be one that changes the trick he is using regularly to sow paranoia into the opponents, making a reloading teammate, or a fresh respawn no longer safe. (On that note, a trick that allowed spy to go in the opposing respawn room, but not be allowed to attack while doing so would be interesting to see, even if it’s a bad idea) everyone would need to be spy checked, because fewer actions allow you to determine someone is safe. And after reading your paranoia after attacking several teammates? That is when spy would strike. Maybe I’m giving too much credit to the intelligence of the average TF2 player, but I think it’s an idea that could possibly work, given heavy testing and tweaking.

[@Loyde06]

He already has one, the sapper. Now all it does is sap building but like Fish said, it could be used for much more.

[@Cinnamowo]

That is an impressive frame perfect first try 360 breastmilk stab you just performed

[@MrxD-cg5xs]

If I could make one change to Spy, besides bugfixes ofc, those should go without saying, I would improve his invisibility to visibility ratio. Currently Spy has to spend 3 seconds visible for every 1 second he is invisible, with the Invis Watch granting 10 seconds of invisibility at a 30 second recharge rate. I'd bump that down to a 1:2 ratio, with Spy getting 1 second of invisibility for every 2 seconds he is visible, either by increasing his maximum cloak time to 15 seconds with a 30 second recharge, or by reducing his recharge down to 20 seconds with the standart 10 second duration. I think either would work fine, as one would grant the Spy more movement options while concealed, while the other would allow for more regular concealment. I do slightly prefer the 15 second invisibility option though, as this would help Spy a lot with larger sightlines and makes ammo kits more impactful. Invisibility is really his greatest tool for getting into the enemy backlines. Disguises are decent, they get you from your uncloak / ambush spot to your targets back, but in the long run it is best not to rely on them too much. As such I believe improving Spys invisibility we can create a lot more ambush options and allow for easier escapes after said ambush. This is also a change that would not affect any of his problematic unlocks, like the Kunai + Deadringer combo, while improving his performance as a stock class. Depending on which of the two options we choose, this would however have a positive effect on the YER (reduced cloak recharge = less punishment for disguising) or L'etranger (increased cloak time = more benefit from the percentage based cloak time increase).

[@joshuakim5240]

I've always been of the opinion that the main problem with Spy is that players don't seem to want to play him the way he's actually been designed to be played. One thing i've noticed from people who tried Gun Spy is that the ability to see enemy hp gives them TONS of free assist kills that they'd otherwise not be aware of the opportunity for without said hp scan ability. It seems that Spy is supposed to be using a mix of his gun and knife for different opportunities for picks: pick off weakened enemies with the revolver and pick off lone, vulnerable enemies with the knife. But everyone kind of just charges in with the knife, or hangs back with the gun, rarely ever mixing the 2 together. There's a Gunspy guide by Octo (A God Gamer's Guide to Gunspy), which shows crazy cool synergy with mixing Spy's arsenal together for interwoven combos (using the Dead Ringer to get a super jump vs an enemy rocket to fly behind an enemy for a backstab or flying to an elevated position for more revolver shots, essentially using it offensively rather than defensively), and it shows that Spy can be a sick asf combo class...but no one seems to want to play it as a combo class.

[@Brown95P]

What Spy needs the most is something more to take advantage of the paranoia he creates with his backstabs while also changing between paranoia maker & paranoia abuser at will within a single life, so that a Spy can still feel useful during the downtimes where the enemy is too aware to let him stab them.

[@crimsonshinobi5281]

The ambassador was a great tool for taking out engineers and sentry nests from a distance, worked especially well against paranoid engineers who could hear the decloak from a mile away.

[@Salemander5000]

Heres a fun little item idea that could help spy with both getting around the enemy team and adding to his support role: a sapper that can be placed on the ground to create a large cloud of smoke for a few seconds, kinda like a sentry buster explosion. It would make it easier for him to slip past enemies, help his team get through choke points, and obstruct sniper sightlines.

[@cloudynguyen6527]

At that point just give him smoke grenade at disposal. And here is the problem, TF2 isn't CSGO, they have very strict visibility and readability design. Anything that obscures player's vision will disrupt the game flow. It makes sense in tactical shooter because you want to slow down and buy some time. But in class based shooter like TF2, the game flow itself is constant actions.

[@Salemander5000]

@cloudynguyen6527 iunno. It worked out in one of shounics videos (using sentry buster smoke as cover to push theough stalemates) vut its hard tell tell how something would work out if you can only see it on paper. Also ive never played csgo and know nothing about it, so if there's a smoke bomb item in that game, it isn't inspiration. I just thought a device to hinder the sight of those nearby would fit the secret agent theme.

[@Kayther33]

OK Idea for a new Zapper Photographie de la muse A camera for the spy. Can be used while disguised Give all allies wallhack for the enemies in the position where they were photographed for a few seconds. Coldown of 5 seconds. This is basically a weapon that let spys inform the allies of who and where is everyone and is not broken because the wallhack is not updated every seconds just every 5 seconds.

[@assanassa5985]

You have inspired me to make a video in response to this. Unironically almost every point here is so unfathomably wrong it’s amazing. I had to break for 5 mins when you stated “sniper relies more on the team then spy”, when sniper is the most independent class in the game, while spy is second to medic in terms of team dependence. Anyway no hate just realllllly bad understanding of how this class operates and where he exceeds

[@HeDronHeDronHedron]

SNIPER IS THE MOST INDEPENDENT CLASS IN THE GAME HAHAHAHHAA

[@mechadeka]

@@HeDronHeDronHedron Any other time you guys are whining about how Sniper can solo anything and has no bad matchups.

[@KittSpiken]

How's the video coming?

[@LeechyBoi]

that quick scope solo where you taunted and got fully healed by that crossbow bolt was so cool

[@kompatybilijny9348]

You make a good point fish, we should remove voice chat and voice lines from the game

[@InsaneToats]

Honestly the thing spy needs is a more accurate revolver, and a teeny bit more health. Playing gun spy has awakened my mind to the design philosophy valve intended on spy. Ask yourself, why can spy see enemy healthbars? Well to use his gun to pick off weak players. Its a mid range hitscan that can delete scouts and pyros before they get within lethal distance, and its a great way to soften up tougher enemies for your team. Then when the time is right, you cloak and do your sneaky spy stuff when the enemy gets comfortable with your frontline presence. Spy's ability to get behind enemy lines also lets him gun down solo targets and retreating enemies without much risk. The difference between uncloaking behind someone, and 10 meters away is life or death and more spys just need to use his gun more. Unfortunately he is VERY squishy, one rouge rocket can sentence you to death. And his revolver isnt reliable enough to use at the range he desperately needs it to be.

[@DeletedTaters001]

8:08 I dont think this is an issue. Diguises are to fool sentries and fool people 'at a glance'. That extra second is usually all you need. Diguses really aren't meant to be able to stand up to scruntiny. Not that I'm against making them a little better like you suggested (key to togggle base/target movespeed, fake reload on command). 14:42 counterpoint - in the chaos it can actually be easy to chain stab because there's just too much going on. Also, how much Highlander have you played? Because spy can frag out, ignoring the benefits of a walking wall hack for a second. 16:47 your overall summary is correct though. Like a lot of things, both teams need to be roughly equivalent in skill level for you to actually have a chance of playing the game.

[@airchampion4658]

Spy does NOT frag out in Highlander unless the spy is sandbagging and should be playing 2 divs higher than everyone else in the lobby.

[@Combine-Productions]

I would LOVE to see a sentry controller sapper for the Spy. It starts with a long timer that inverts the sentry's team for a few seconds when the timer hits zero.

[@williammin8340]

Look, I really like your videos, but if there's something I learned before and during this video, it's that I should not take any of your takes on spy seriously. Your whole argument against spy's design is that he only can do two things: stab and sap. These are stand out features of spy, but they are far from the only applications of spy. In fact, I find spy to be the most versatile support class in this game, more than medic and especially sniper. His ability to be anywhere at anytime enables him to repurpose tools that would traditionally be weaker otherwise. - the revolver can sneak kills on low health enemies in safe cover - his cloak can enable him to evade unexpectedly, which baits enemies into wasting their time as they relentlessy search for you - his presence alone makes any class require to frequently drop whatever they're doing to catch out a spy, which pulls attention away from the frontlines Notice how many of these benefits are simple or physical; they're mainly psychological. That's because spy is not facing a soldier, heavy, demo, or any combat class; he's facing against the exploitable minds of TF2 players. When players see spy like a manipulator and exploiter instead of a traditional combat-oriented class, that's when spy mains know how to grow and become better.

[@giahuynguyenkim6389]

Aye, a fan of Jontohil2 yes?

[@Verlisify]

Since there's no more bad weapons to cover I'm down with any kind of content like this or even just a few "good weapon academy"

[@SealZebra]

I think a big issue why spy feels so useless is because he isnt designed for the more popular gamemodes in the modern day (this also goes for heavy and pyro as well). When the game released, CTF, A/D, and TC were the main gamemodes that most classes were balanced around (yes ik 5CP Granary existed), and most maps were small to medium size with a load of chokes and small corridors. On these older designed maps as well as old Payload maps, Spy, Pyro, and Heavy had a way easier time. For spy specifically its because chainstabs were easy due to everyone being close together, players would get distracted at chokes and pushes more often, and due to everything being a clusterfuck it was more difficult to focus on spychecking. Now I'm not saying there arent class issues with spy, especially with bugs and how easy it is to find spies now due to people being used to it, but these larger open maps on gamemodes more about back and forth pushes (koth, plr, 5cp) instead of linear attacking and defending (pl, a/d, tc) make it insanely difficult to play as the class effectively

[@simplysmiley4670]

Well moreso then maps just forcing people together, maps weren't giving as much freedom of movement for the more mobile classes like scout, soldier and demoman. Which are also classes that have an extremely easy time killing a spy just like pyro does, if not better then pyro at actually killing the spy.

[@slyseal2091]

tf you mean more popular gamemodes CTF hosts like half of the damn playerbase

[@zacharygilmore1075]

It fills me with intense nostalgia every time you play Sly Cooper music in the background of your videos.

[@EdibleREAL]

Spy is a very sneaky bugger. That is very wrong with spy.

[@solgerWhyIsThereAnAtItLooksBad]

9:11 Oh hey, a rainworld player

[@sergeantgates2922]

A summary of spy's main problem beyond the bugs that plague his whole kit (Disguise kit amalgamations, invisibility jank, spawning wallhacks, melee hitrig in general), is the fact that he's mostly a one trick pony in terms of playstyle, "be sneaky and stab people". That's about its unless you're good with the ambassador and at that point you could just play as sniper and one shot light classes with your aim.

[@johnnodwarf1201]

The situation I find myself pulling out Spy the most is on a last hold, typically attack defense. With the enemy focusing so much on the objective and having plenty of backline to work with, I’ve found that spy can really put a dent into pushes and chew up precious time.

[@marsmonke4160]

Spy suffers because Spy mains usually only play Spy. I, myself, am a Spy main. And usually it goes about as good as one can expect. Playing other classes allows you to do two things, adapt to their playstyles (which allows for more convincing disguising, unless you're against a Pyro, because that's the hardest counter ever) and an option to fall back to another class if Spy just isn't working. It's often for me to stomp as Spy and then later hard countered, and switching off is just a strategy itself. People are more paranoid because they EXPECT a Spy that doesn't even exist anymore, and sometimes they distract themselves from the actual threat in front of them now

[@nategraham1487]

I’ve totally thought of the ultra knife idea before - where you give a knife the benefits of all the knives with no downsides and maybe spy is viable in competitive

[@DashFlashTheLife]

4:00 the amount of times I’ve felt like pulling my hair out fighting a sniper versus spy is night and day, dude. I don’t know what world you’re living in where sniper isn’t an out of place class in tf2, but he’s not harder to play then spy. When you play sniper, you’re just playing an aim trainer.

[@RdTrler]

Yeah, Fish is a pretty big hypocrite. Just look at his gripe about the Scorch Shot. You can easily just swap out "Scorch Shot" with "a Sniper main" and it's the same darn thing, right down to being easy to spam (by Counter-Strike gamers' standards.) It's not like those head hitboxes are even remotely accurate to the heads' dimensions.

[@Legend-Of-The-Sun]

He said it was harder to get multiple kills in a couple of seconds as Sniper than Spy, not in general?

[@CaptainWobbs]

The one thing I wish you could do as Spy regarding disguises is to pick how much health you have. 90% of the time your disguise’ll have full health, and it doesn’t make sense for a full health teammate to be running from the front lines. Every once in a while you’ll get lucky and get a disguise of somebody on low health, and I find people are a lot more trusting of my approach when that happens.

[@AXEJAYB]

Best trick is to walk backwards while disguised. It will take some map knowledge to pull off effective but works really well to sell the disguise.

[@fluke7506]

spy is bad because his entire counterplay is based on your enemies game sense. Its not like spy can outskill the pyro who happend to turn around randomly while hes cloaked by the tine hes decloaked hes already dead. unlike other classes who can still outskill other classes despite counterplay based on game sense

[@JLT0087]

Maybe a sidegrade for the sapper that acts like the psychotropic grenade from TFC classic? A small, no/low damage explosion and any enemies caught in the radius get spammed with audio ques and blurred vision/false burning effects, etc for 10-30 seconds.

[@MegaGenguy]

I think the way to fix the diamondback and possibly fix the problem of "spy dies immediately once he's committed to the backstab" is, instead of stored crits, he gets a few seconds of crits after a stab so he at least has a chance at gunning his way out and not just using it as a "I'll save these for later to unload on a suspecting medic"

[@DashFlashTheLife]

This. It makes it more easily used early game and saves the annoyance of dying to stored crits

[@drivanradosivic1357]

I would make the Diamondback not fire crit shots when disguised, so you can still use the revolver and crits are for when the enemy demos, soldier and heavies are on your ass. I would improve the Enforcer by making the situational "plus 20% more damage when disguised" into a "plus 20% more damage when disguised or enemy is debuffed" which allows the spy to have more chances to fight. Actually, would also a "when disguised, buffed by nonmedigun stuff(big earner, the banners, stuff like that) and the enemy debuff" be good? Those are not additive(disguised and buffed at a debuffed enemy for 60% more damage) but conditions(when X OR Y OR Z get plus 20% more damage) sort of deal would help?

[@jblazerndrowzy]

@@drivanradosivic1357The no-crits-while-disguised idea definitely helps with readability and predictability. When the Spy’s undisguised, you can at least see the glowing gun.

[@drivanradosivic1357]

I had a idea to give a CORE CLASS change to the Spy. it is similar to how Pyro got the "extinguishing allies gives 20HP" as a core class ability, but for different things. My idea is to give Spy a core class ability of "when killing with knife stab/butterknifing and backstabbing, gain 20% damage resistance for 3 seconds" which is quite doable, and a pretty decent buff that helps with the Spy syndrome. Why damage resistance instead of cloak on kill or health on kill? Cloaking does not let you attack, which is bad if you want chainstabs meaing that damage resistance is the better option. Health on kill, the Kunai exists, but something like a mix between the eyelander(kills give 5HP increase for 4 or more max.) and the Shahanshah(more damage the lower your health is. and the Shahanshah might actually benefit from a "get 5HP increase on kill for 4 or more max" as a way to make it useful, although even a HP on hit stat could also work) would be interesting. if Spy had a core class ability to throw knives on mouse 3, that could make it so, the new spy meta is more interesting. take the 40 damage stat, add in minicrits on medium distance throws and crits on long throws and back throws, make the throwing knives be 3 and use a Gas passer like stat of "head 150 damage or wait for 15 seconds to get a recharge" as a ability. I would also make different knives do different things, stock does bleed on hit, big earner speed boost, YER does silent kill, Spycycle does statues on kill and Kunai gives HP on hit and kill. what do you think of all of this?

[@johannesneumayer6041]

This is an absolute hot take: please engage with me in a dialogue with helpful critique. I think Spy‘s problem doesn’t lie in the knife, it’s in the Revolver. It the revolver was stronger, Spy would be able to defend himself better when caught out, get more revolver picks and even fight along his team if necessary. If Spy‘s revolver could 2-shot light classes, the only interaction really changing would be against engineers. If a Scout rushes you down, he still has a major advantage against you because of his evasion. Snipers ca be backstabbed, and the Amby and Enforcer were already able to easily finish off Razorback snipers. This change would mean he can way better engage with engineer in a 1v1. If a Spy sapps a Sentry, both classes are now on an even playing field by being able to 2-shot the other, while the Spy still needs to first get to the sentry, still giving him a disadvantage.

[@alfiewright1396]

In a 12v12 I feel like having one spy is viable. It at least makes opponents check their backs and teammates which can distract them from the fight. Not to mention the anti-engineer and key pick potential

[@ethandavis7310]

That's all you need and all he was designed for. Some people want spy to be a viable instant-pick which is insane

[@nsdapcommunism2780]

Bruh whats the fun in being a mere distraction? who wants to die over and over again to help your team, while not getting a single kill? Spy needs to be strong enough, so he depends less on enemy's team composition or weapons choices - thats all people want from spy. Nobody demands spy to be as strong as heavy or soldier in open combat.@@ethandavis7310

[@OscarGreenworth]

I feel like Spy’s main problem is his backstab hit detection. It’s too wide. I shouldn’t be looking directly at Spy and get instantly killed. It should be reworked to work like the back burner detection.

[@the8626]

for a potential spy buff, what if he gave enemies near to him a damage debuff when he gets a backstab? it would play into his theme of sabotage, make him more effective at getting away after a backstab, and would help make up for his small health pool while not turning him into a tank [without the kunai] so that he could engage in real combat more. it would even help with helping him fit into the support role more, as it gives him a literal support ability.

[@bow_gaming3235]

Don't forget kunai exist

[@the8626]

@@bow_gaming3235 yeah, that would absolutely suck, so it would need a rework (as if it didn't need one already)

[@flashtirade]

It'd be cool if Spy could slide/toss the sapper a short distance like he does in his "Meet the X" video

[@roble8943]

The core issue for Spy to me is that he is a support class that provides little to no support. If you actually really think about it, his only support tool is the sapper which is a weapon hyper dependent on dealing with a single other class. Beyond that he's a high risk pick class utterly outmatched by Sniper being a far better pick class that doesn't put themselves in as much danger. In an optimal universe, Spy's unlocks wouldn't simply entail knives and revolvers but actual utility tools. What if he had a sapper unlock that functioned like Sombra where you can force health kits around the map to be team specific for a short amount of time? What if he was able to plant camera's that outlined enemies to your team in a small radius? What if he was able to pick up ammo and health kits to store and give later to his teammates? What if he had smoke bombs that blocks enemy vision but his teammates can see through? I'm not saying every idea I just came up with is a winner or balanced but what I'm saying is he needs more general purpose tools that actually expand his role as a support class.

[@ethandavis7310]

These are some dope ideas. Specifically the health pack one I think would mesh really well with tf2's design

[@RDGamer321]

I recently thought of this Spy Revolver unlock that would mimick the firing animation of whatever class the spy is disguised as by using the primary fire, and not remove the disguise while firing. The drawbacks being you cannot deal any damage with the revolver while disguised (easy to implement as the Enforcer does this the other way around) and it reloads one bullet at a time, which could also be used to better fake a class reloading.

[@itsKyee1]

my favorite spy activity is actually using disguises and tricking people. Even though disguises are busted and obvious, i think it loops back around to being good since nobody expects a spy to actually try to act like their disguise.

[@DisgruntledPeasant]

I wish they had leaned into his weird-gadget vibe rather than his assasin role. Imagine if his unlocks actually turned him into a bizzare support rather than pick class, being able to "blowdart" enemies for short lived jarate effects to get people killed by taking more damage than they were expecting as they start a fight. You can give him some bonkers stuff id its replacing his ability to instakill: i love the radar idea for example, allowing your team to line up hits as enemies turn corners. A fun disguise sidegrade would be one that focuses on the unserused ability to disguise as your own team: instead of the spy himself going into disguise he would send out a decoy of one of his teammates, that would have the same hp as the class, except popping into smoke when killed. It would run forward stupidly, but would be good enough to send across sightlines, and open up silly plays such as having teammates pretend to be a decoy if the enemy stop shooting at them.

[@hamzaahmed652]

Idea: Spy disquises should reflect 20% of any damage , & should have a watch replacement where he doesn't clock but all enemies within say 600 hammer units will take friendly fire including mini crits , this way he will actually sabotage enemy teams at the cost of no invisibility

[@Tusken]

The heavy disappearing at 10:48 almost made me pass out from laughter idk why

[@TheMinecraftACMan]

Oh look, another sniper main triggered by the mere existence of spy...

[@nateriver5769]

I once heard someone saying that the buffs spy needs are bug fixes, and I kinda agree with it