A REASONable Discussion About Nocturne's Reasons (With Meti NTBG)

Many eons ago we did a totally botched discussion about Nocturne's Reason system, it was bad and we should feel bad. This time we have big Nocturne fan Meti (NotTheBadGuy) with us to talk about how they're really cool and interesting and you should play Nocturne dudes.
Meti; / @metinotthebadguy
twitter; @fitherfith
Patreon.com/fither

[@SuperCrazf]

Now I can’t get the image off my head of some random dude showing Kagatsuchi the communist manifesto and saying “this is my reason”.

[@TheSynthPunk]

"My demonic sponsor is Karl Marx, fuck you"

[@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec]

@@TheSynthPunk Kagatsuchi: I...ummm...Sure why not?

[@arielshligman2146]

@@KhanhNguyen-mh5ec famous last words

[@harrietr.5073]

@@TheSynthPunk Well actually that would be better for Marxism or Anarcho-Communism. Dude, if you want to be a super State-communist, have capital S Stalin be your demonic sponsor.

[@Darth_Bateman]

I mean communism only works with a certain degree of education and power of individuals. We can’t have communism in a world where billionaires are allowed to exploit individuals. We aren’t there yet, but we will be…I hope….if capitalism doesn’t fucking kill us first.

[@MelficeCyrum]

It's funny, but Hikawa's Reason feels like Law, but his demons are the fallen angels. And Chiaki's Reason feels like Chaos, but she has the support of the Angels of God. Isamu's is the odd man out as it's a unique Reason.

[@Painocus]

Chiaki's end result would be identical to law tho. A rigid unchanging hirarchy where those below are subjegated to will of those above, which is basically what YHVH wants. Isamu's is the most Chaos-like imo as he wants a world were everyone can follow their own path, except that those paths will never come into conflict.

[@iwannaseehowlongyoucanmakethis]

@@Painocus IMO Isamu's reason is more neutral, it's all about carving your own path and ignoring all others, which is how the neutral path is depicted in smt 4.

[@Benjamin-ml7sv]

Isamus is a mix of everything. Neutrual = You go your own path Chaos = Everyone is free to do what they want Law = You are your own god and the highest being.

[@A_B_1917]

They are all Law. That's why they go to Kagutsuchi, aspect of YHVH, the god of LAW, to make those reasons come true. It's more like they are light/neutral/dark law, for Isamu/Chiaki/Hikawa.

[@Kumaclaws]

Something I really like about reasons are that every reason is flawed at best and flat out contradictory at worst. You have Chiaki’s reason based on Darwinism, but Chiaki is super weak and needs other demons to barely scrape by. Isamu’s reason is living in your own space all alone, but you can do whatever you want. Which is fitting, considering Isamu is a complete coward and wants to only benefit his own selfish desires. Hikawa wants the world to live in harmony and wipe everyone’s individuality to do it, but he has to destroy what makes life world living and what separates people from farm animals. You can even add on Yuko’s reason, which is just “people suck, let’s fix it” but then shrugs her shoulders when even slightly pressed about it. She was the one who became the martyr for the world reset but doesn’t even have the convictions to actually build the world.

[@trashlord1591]

I really hope that reasons return in SMT 5. Not necessarily the reasons that appeared in Nocturne, but ideologies that are more complex and interesting than "kill all demons!" or "kill all angels!"

[@Mayhzon]

@DevilBuster Kaz That's because True Demon Ending has the strongest presentation. In the reason endings you always follow someone elses reason, but here is Lucifer testing you if you can kick ass and then when you succeed announcing you as the new Demon of Darkness. And then you all march together to screw up YVHW. What's not to love?

[@lero9900]

@DevilBuster Kaz yes alignments are so much better than reasons because I love being anarchy or totalitarian where neutral is mostly considered canon so the others don't matter

[@lero9900]

@DevilBuster Kaz reasons are ideologies, they aren't concrete in the way of life, alignments are shown to not work, smt 4 shows that if you pick law, chaos will eventually happen and if you choose chaos then law will eventually come, neither of the alignments will ever work

[@sugoiboyxl8345]

*_BURN IT ALL DOWN!!! BURN IT ALL DOWN!!! I DON'T GIVE A FUCK!!! BURN IT TO THE GROOOOUNND!!!_*

[@GyaruRespecter]

@@Mayhzon You're not following "your own reason", you're following Lucifer. You literally become his underling in the True Demon ending.

[@alezarde211]

The neat thing about nocturne is that every reason had appeal to it.

[@Arlesmon]

Hikawa is such an underrated character. Sure, he should've gotten more screentime, but his character had a lot of potential to become amazing.

[@frankenztine2844]

Exactly. He could also have gotten a better haircut

[@andresarancio6696]

Wow, Meti does have Lv2 Talking. Another point why I personally enjoy the Reason system is how it shows all the depth something as Law and Chaos can actually have? I don't remember if it is straight up said in the game, but considering the whole thing is a big ruse by YHVH to create more worlds loving law, I find it is fitting that each reason actually shows a face of what law is. Nothingness? Then nothing changes! Law wins! Perfect authoritarism? Then nothing changes! Law wins! Everyone living in their own echo chamber as tiny blind gods? Then nothing changes! Law wins!

[@joshuataylor7443]

But what about what devil survivor did with law and chaos?

[@GodDamnRider]

Have to admit, I just wanted to get the "Law" ending in Nocturne to see YHVH sweet, sweet bald head

[@Mayhzon]

The game doesn't have a real LAW ending, though. No amazingly shiny bald head for you!

[@phantomnite]

And yhvh doesn't really appear in the game

[@ren_suzugamori1427]

Meti says he's entered with a pure heart, but look at his avatar. Tell me that character is NOT chaos in her series. Tell me I'm wrong. I dare you

[@soarel325]

TRUE SHIJIMA HAS NEVER BEEN TRIED Hikawa bashing makes me sad because his reason was my favorite (despite not really being down with communism IRL), it's better than edgy solipsism and sociopathic social darwinism

[@Arlesmon]

Hikawa is by far the most logical one out there. But part of it is because he is the one who planned everything from the beginning.-

[@Arlesmon]

@@kana22693 I wouldn't say than 99% of the population, sure, to a degree some greed is necesary and a desire to gain more, but consider that you should at least give some resources to other people so that they can survive and help you in your goals. Because you will need the help of other people in order to survive, going for the individualistic path without the care for others won't lead to a stable society.

[@juandom6432]

This guy is beginning his speech by bashing both communism and Hikawa. He's just an effing overly excited Persona pleb. His opinion doesnt mean sh!t.

[@professionalfangster1510]

Solipsism is way better than hive mind shit. Isamu is my boy.

[@Natsumi170]

Hikawa's reason isn't even based on communism...

[@ikebrande9307]

Meti [ Not A Red Guy ]

[@ChickenKingTW]

It really shows that they didn't do Yosuga ending at all when they talk about it and praise it so much.

[@twinightptawn6138]

They find the idea fascinating but they don't agree with it and they know what happens in it.

[@purplelemondoesstuff3044]

Reasons are rad, but only really fit for Nocturne. Another game with reasons would be another Nocturne, maybe? Idk

[@Jobulejobies]

Wil E if only the smt x fe crossover was better

[@michaelk9279]

The trailer for 5 gives me the feeling it’s gonna take a leaf from Nocturne’s book.

[@anglosaxiphone8246]

The concept of Reasons return in DeSu2 where the main 4 faction leaders have their own ideal worlds that conflict with each other peading to a war of ideas in the final day.

[@joshuataylor7443]

@Wil E but how can you explain reason coming back because their a important part of snt 3 story how can that system work without just use the same story?

[@riccardoz1457]

>Supports chaos ending where some are damned and others are rewarded eternally for no real reason and unable to advance or regress >Thinks Hikawa’s Law reason where everyone lives in harmony working together with the universe and achieves nirvana is the worst ending Smh. The chad Hikawaist vs the virgin Yosugaite

[@HoudiniFontmeister]

Yea that's what I took away as well

[@Natsumi170]

Imagine thinking the reason of bloodshed and genocide is better than the reason of living in peace, harmony and collective prosperity.

[@Bropower125Games]

@@Natsumi170 except its not one where you have free will, everyone is combined, stuck, unable to exact their own will

[@Natsumi170]

@@Bropower125Games I hope my country will give this a try.

[@CrowCrojoINTJ]

I am a fellow Shijima enjoyer

[@theghostofjeffgoldblumdail9613]

When Fither said that he liked that you couldn’t see your alignment meant that the path you took was more natural because it’s what you, specifically you would’ve done in that situation, in future SMT games, they should have it be so that it’s like this in your 1st playthrough, then in all future playthroughs, they show you your alignment so you can get the ending you want without following a guide, though you can turn it off if you want too, in case someone wants to do a playthrough like their 1st, where they didn’t consider what alignment they would be if they did X thing, but rather, what would they do in that situation

[@Samm815]

Demi-Fiend is my favorite SMT Protag.

[@zamen7545]

Sam Lucas A really weird way to spell Aleph

[@Samm815]

Aleph doesn't punch demons in the face (he does have some sick dance moves though).

[@zamen7545]

Sam Lucas He may not punch demons but he does shoot god (and his names) in the face and if we go by the Dante from the devil may cry franchise theory guns make every thing cooler Except hEDGEhogs

[@darciheadswillroll]

I love MNTBG please do more with this legendary man

[@bottlemanic]

I just love nocturnes set up full stop. The world in limbo, post apocalypse where everything in existence has been shattered and the world must be remade under an ideology strong enough to govern the new world. Or else it remains in purgatory full of demons and despair. The freaking tone in this game is so palpable, you just get the feeling that everything is totally fucked

[@aidenshaw4620]

started with p3 then p4, but the first REAL MEGUMI TANSAI game i played was nocturne. and honestly it was a fucking blast. it was like the polar opposite of p4 and i was all for it. liked the different ideas of reasons, even if i went for TDE cause of dante regardless, nice discussion on reasons lads. also thanks meti for the commie bashing, good to know you don't need a free helicopter ride

[@Nylfmedli14]

Aiden Shaw same

[@Mayhzon]

DOWN WITH THE COMMIE SC*M!

[@TheSynthPunk]

On the same path right now, can't wait for the Nocturne remaster to finally dip my toes in MegaTen.

[@boislap]

They actually talked about Pokemon Gun and Spoon.

[@quint2568]

I would say the one persona game that can definitely fit into law and chaos is 5. One ending is clearly law surrendering to demiurge. While the true ending is siding with satanael to defeat him

[@yaldabaoth724]

God DAMN! This video is sick as fuck! The Vortex World always interested me, chaos working with small undertones of law was really nice to see at least with how far I got. Hopefully, I get to endgame stuff at one point and this video hypes me up, I can say that much! So great work on this, and thanks for the fun.

[@pascalhagen9147]

His definition of communism kind of sounds like capitalism.

[@juandom6432]

That guy doesnt have a single clue about what he's rabbling about.

[@mastemathedank4043]

@@juandom6432 dude do you have literally nothing better to do? I've seen you comment the same thing at least four times.

[@aspiringcoconut6561]

Ahh I appreciate his enthusiasm, makes for good listening content, but Meti kinda has trash opinions.

[@soundwaves8619]

i have a strong feeling meti is going to shill shimoneta in this at some point

[@pedro2629]

I wonder if SMTV is the law eqquivalent to Nocturne's chaos how would they interpret Law since one of the thigs in SMT is YHVH is evil and corrupt because people view law as corrupt (I could be wrong) personally I think that it could bring interesting perspectives because Law in SMT has been the radical alignment in a way, so a game where law has multiple interpretations would be pretty interesting

[@cybersoul2809]

Pedro Nocturne is already a game where law gets multiple interpretations, all the reasons lead to law

[@Schlumbuo]

So the actual reasoning behind YVHM being seen as mostly evil in the games is because eastern philosophies rely on dualism, so a being of pure anything cannot be good. That's why the most loved games besides iv have all endings suck equally. In actual smt, YVHM is often portrayed as evil because he is more based on the demiurge than the biblical god so he doesn't have any actual love for humanity and just wants to go max law.

[@HoudiniFontmeister]

@@Schlumbuo Well yea. He is based on the God of the Old testament who is an asshole. That's what the Demiurge basically is but seen as a false god by some sects of Christianity.

[@quesocoatl21]

@@HoudiniFontmeister No and fuck you.

[@HoudiniFontmeister]

@@quesocoatl21 Bahahahahahaha. That is priceless.

[@slug2082]

Persona 4 Apocalypse is still best Persona game

[@cybersoul2809]

Homura 焔 Engetsuka Hahaha Original Joke

[@agoodboy1404]

Homura 焔 Engetsuka are you being ironic? Honestly speaking, I'm curious if your happy with the popular persona stuff that they added to apocalypse. I'm not, but I'm okay with it being in there since chaos ending is a thing I can have. Side note: Chaos ending is awesome😈.

[@slug2082]

gayfemboi romantic i'm joking

[@johnsonseesit1652]

Came for the interesting discussion, stayed for the commie bashing

[@ambervalkerie9134]

can you do a disscussion on the divine powers and whether or not they should show up again in future smt? I really like the divine powers from smt apocolapyse and the group as a whole is so flexible you can have changing leaders of it in each new game they appear in.

[@zamen7545]

Amber Valkerie I would have voted for Krishna to be next in line for universe auction (But what about nanishi's universe in s that just like spreading across the multiverse taking all YHVH turf or is just like it's own separate thing. Does he just share with YHVH or what)

[@Schlumbuo]

@@zamen7545 more than likely, either final isn't canonical, or the peace ending is canon because the game goes out of its way to make the anarchy ending the "bad" option since all your friends kill themselves on you.

[@karenreyes2043]

Kharn the Betrayer It’s all canon because of the multiverse.

[@grand-malice175]

I got into the SMT series from Apocalypse.

[@bearandthebull2372]

Miguel Luna did you like persona 4:apocalypse?

[@grand-malice175]

@@bearandthebull2372 Played both, liked both, wish I could give Nocturne a try.

[@lazysylph3312]

Betatron it would be funny if apocalypse didn't have the best gameplay in SMT. Fight me strange journey boys.

[@zamen7545]

Same

[@grand-malice175]

@@lazysylph3312 Actually, I like how both games handle combat priorities differently, but I do prefer for Hama and Mudo skills to actually do damage instead of just insta-killing enemies.

[@jacksont1299]

I did the exact same thing, I played persona 5 first then I played apocalypse

[@TheGaymos]

Shimoneta was a great show

[@Hoarseplay]

Shimoneta was a great premise. The show itself was alright until Tanukichi got raped and the show suddenly switches gears to become an absurd comedy instead of a humorous social commentary.

[@Tenebrio-Morio]

Aniel, and kazfiel in strange journey make it very clear that they are testing to become a law hero.

[@notagainmanstop468]

I find it bizarre how much you praise chiakis reason which is... pretty much facism enforced by the universe itself. Hikawa is a monster but his reason is not nearly that bad. Musubi best reason

[@twinightptawn6138]

They may find them fascinating but they still don't agree with it

[@monfernova]

Started with devil survivor 1, then persona 3 then 4, then SMTIV, then Nocturne

[@monfernova]

my first five

[@TytanHavok]

Hey hey hey, the Septentriones SHOULD come back.

[@PissedGrunty]

The Pants on Head Party is the best Reason.

[@espurr4043]

This video reaffirms my belief that Meti has trash opinions

[@explosiver]

I think the no reason ending is the best. You basically fuck up YHVH's plan and give everyone their lives back to do as they would before the conception fucked it up. It's effectively the neutral ending. Neutral is usually characterized as the MC not following the alignments, in this case, none of the reasons.

[@beanieboi7743]

Same I also think what makes it better is that you are now prepared and if it happens in the same lifetime you can actually make a reason or someone else can potentially make a really good reason

[@SharazJek]

Hikawa's reason would create a universe devoid of fear and suffering. That doesn't sound bad at all to me. I'd say the Reason the Manniken's wanted to implement was more like what Communism is ideally meant to be; from what I understand they wished for a universe where everyone is both equal and constantly works hard for the community. Granted, I haven't played this game in a decade so forgive me if I misunderstood anything.

[@ellagage1256]

No that's a pretty good description of what communist want. Just because some communist countries had "rough patches" to put it mildly, doesn't mean the ideology is inherently bad. Me pointing at a failed capitalist country doesn't make all capitalist ideology inherently bad. Idk I'm pretty sure they don't even know or care what communists believe

[@juandom6432]

This guy has no effing clue. Another dogmatic pleb.

[@sugoiboyxl8345]

*_A certain someone from Persona liked that._*

[@firstnamelastname7244]

@@juandom6432 So are you a communist or just a really passionate SMT fanboy?

[@Natsumi170]

@@firstnamelastname7244 Hikawa's reason isn't even based on communism, it's based on Buddhism.

[@Alex-mb2cy]

Am I the only one who prefers the european name for it, "Lucifer's call"?

[@bottlemanic]

Alexander Becker I kinda think that it could be a censorship thing. I don't know what it's called in Japan but it feels like marketing a game for teenagers called Lucifers call is more of a faux pa for American media than Europe. But it's probably actually nothing to do with that

[@JayAreAitch]

Dimensional Nemesis A nocturne is a piece of art based on or depicting the night. Don't know what you're on about with regards to tendrils and sunsets.

[@JayAreAitch]

Dimensional Nemesis What?

[@HoudiniFontmeister]

@@bottlemanic Well Nocturne is it's name. Pretty sure Lucifer's Call is a result of Trademark law. Not saying the name is bad but it was always Nocturne even in Japan. They have the Numeral in the title in Japan though. Remaster brings it back as well. :)

[@bottlemanic]

@@HoudiniFontmeister you are correct I've learnt since. It was just rumination on my part

[@Skeithwannabe]

The Reason the Devil Survivor Endings are the best is because to you can choose to not be a complete asshole in the Chaos and Law endings unlike the other games

[@shominazuki1251]

also Nocturne's ost is one of the best

[@faultyvideos2215]

4:40 a friend of mine got into mainline smt with 4 apocalypse too.

[@ikebrande9307]

I accept your apology

[@shawnredmon6542]

God yes!

[@ShimyIa1]

I love this podcast lore talk shit. Im not even really familiar with smt outside of P3 P4 and Smt4A. Tried some others but its such a time sink and i just cant seem to get into DeSu2.

[@shawnredmon6542]

Yeahhhhh!

[@zamen7545]

Yes Meti or FlairBot 2.0

[@charliegrist749]

Would have loved a hijiri reason.

[@polyman6859]

Same tbh. Would be cool to see you get to choose to save Hijiri and kill Isamu as an alt route but idek what Hijiri really wanted beyond power hoarding.

[@-king-1230]

Who needs reason

[@DjDannyD88]

SMT4 Apocalypse was my first introduction to the SMT series.

[@malakai_adam]

Why is rance in the thumbnail?

[@pcwildcat]

Never understood the Hikawa hate. There is an absurdly disproportionate amount of suffering in the universe. Trading those small bits of happiness in exchange for getting rid of all that suffering seems defensible to me. The alternative is like saying "almost all living things should suffer greatly because I'm relatively content with my life." And comparing the Hikawa Reason to communism doesn't make any sense. The Hikawa reason isn't about seizing the means of production, elimination of unjust hierarchy or anything like that. It's about getting rid of the pain and suffering that comes with existence. It's more like Buddhism than anything else.

[@VannMunson]

This is a five year old video but I've always had this burning question about Yosuga. How, exactly, do children work in the world of Yosuga? Like if the entire idea of the world is that your strength and status are fixed and you'll never be surpassed, does that just mean that people never have children? Like if you have a kid, they're going to be born as strong as they'll ever be, which is already kind of weird. And unless they are going to literally be stuck at the bottom for all time, they are inevitably going to surpass others by being born stronger than them.

[@alphajohne3676]

Dude fuck yes

[@kaikennedy7058]

Nocturne 2 is flat earth

[@Crazy_Dialga]

One of these days I'll finish Nocturne

[@ReverofEnola]

Has this been achieved yet?

[@HeliosimWorld]

So,did you finish it? I don't need sleep,I need answers

[@clickbaiter7740]

Did you do it?

[@yourbroski7947]

yo, did you do it?

[@ambercarbuncle1440p]

What trailer with the heroines?

[@twinightptawn6138]

The original smt fire emblem crossover trailer

[@biogundam6541]

nocturne should have sucked with alignments.

[@ikebrande9307]

@ 1:45 A human who has gathered enough MAGA hats

[@ethansteen8880]

The become the ultimate republican and get gun arms

[@harrietr.5073]

These guy's are talking about State Communism, not Anarcho-Communism if anyone is asking.

[@noved60]

>implying socialism of any kind can exist without a tyrannical state to manage the ""redistribution of the means of production"" lmao

[@harrietr.5073]

@@noved60 No, it's important to have the workers, who create the item's, has power over what happens. Capitalism dehumanises workers mate. But I don't think you care, 4Chan is written all over your comment.

[@noved60]

​@@harrietr.5073 >No, it's important to have the workers, who create the item's, has power over what happens. Worker co-ops exist though? Barring that, what about the thousands of companies that offer stock options? If you believe workers to deserve power over corporate policy (I don't even think this is necessarily bad in a very small business),to what extent do you believe they should be able to act? Could any schmuck on an assembly line decide to modify safety protocols as they wish? >Capitalism dehumanises workers mate. Qualify that. I'd like to see the American or German kids who work 16 hours a day for 3 cents an hour. WAIT,we don't have that in western countries now,do we? Because,unlike the top-down administrated commie shithole of the PRC,westerners have long since passed laws prohibiting child labor outside of REALLY specific industries. I know you'll disregard the PRC since it's not REAL ancom,right? But in that case,could you show me a functional anarcho-communist """state""" (I know it's an oxymoron),to use as a meter stick against leading capitalist nations? Furthermore,who would even enforce contracts in a stateless society? I'm no fan of government myself,but what exactly would stop someone from just not paying someone for their work,should they not be constrained by a state,and thus laws? >But I don't think you care, 4Chan is written all over your comment. >>Implying 4chin isn't full of socialists with a national bent.

[@harrietr.5073]

@@noved60 That's just claims my dude. Can I have your sources of those statements? You start every comment with >. Please, also do a spellcheck. Thank you

[@tonylawson2222]

@@noved60 You use Violence, stranger. That's what the state uses to enforce its fetishes, now. It's what men in prison use to resolve their differences, and it's what humans have always done when cooperation isn't an option, but action is necessary. Read Neitzche, some time. The morality that says violence is forbidden to you, but permitted to the State, is "Slave Morality," an ages-old control mechanism. A monopoly on violence is just as perverse as any other monopoly. It is a negative for the entire system, a bubble bound to pop.

[@Nonzerotonin]

Watching this video without ever having played a SMT game (except persona ig)

[@Shiro92224]

Persona isnt smt

[@Nonzerotonin]

@@Shiro92224 Isnt P1 still a part of it?

[@Shiro92224]

It's quite confusing, fither has a video going what is and isn't smt

[@mastermojo101]

Is it wrong for me not to feel with Fither and Meti on this due to Nocturne's paper thin story and them being BIG Nocturne fans above all other SMT games?

[@BallaMatt23]

nocturne best smt because it’s on ps2 lol

[@zyonhunter]

why dose NTBG hate dragon ball z so much?

[@vanilla8956]

Chiaki is best girl and did absolutely nothing wrong

[@phantomnite]

Except for the attempted genocide

[@vanilla8956]

@@phantomnite attempted? She wiped those meal bags out of there clean. To be honest though, the manikins fates were already sealed. Only chance they could have had was of they had a reason to pitch to Demi-Fiend that wasn’t just “World for only manikins.” The manikins exist only so the demons have prey to hunt for the duration of a vortex world. It’s like seeing a cute feeder animal like a rabbit. It’s going to end up stewing inside a snake anyway, why shouldn’t it be yours? I exaggerated though Chiaki is pretty dumb but I do think she has the best thought out idea out of all of them, it’s Ordered Chaos. a satisfying world to be born a master in. You’re strong, you’re free to do as you please, and you don’t have to watch your back for revolution like normal chaos. But tough luck if you’re not strong. Only thing to do is give up TDE kicks yosuga’s ass by a long shot

[@phantomnite]

@@vanilla8956 yeah.

[@TheDiscoGenre]

TDE was superior to the reason so eh.

[@highlonesomed]

better red than dead* :'D

[@ZeroWolfMoon]

WTF is going on, I don’t understand any of this

[@verityverri6506]

I... I don't think you guy's know what comunism is. XD

[@eseph9899]

Dawg... Is meti a fascist? lol

[@SejiAzureNormalOtakuSWRD243]

I see you hate the commie as well