Five Torches Deep: OSR / 5e Ruleset Review

[@WizardOfAtlantis]

Well I'll give them one thing without having read it yet: that is one helluva damn good name.

[@Ryan_Winter]

So good it should be copyrighted.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Great review. Better than mine.

[@turnermotte9357]

Why? How?

[@samellowery]

I just got done watching your review.

[@ekashotersen]

LOL!

[@razorboy251]

I've been running Five Torches Deep online for a few sessions now, also including the FTD: Duels supplement (which is fantastic by the way). It's really great and it strikes the right balance (for me at least) of 5th edition heroics and old-school danger. The newly released Homesteads supplement allows the players to create and run their own village/town and gain XP by spending gold on upgrading their village, carousing, helping villagers and so on. I am thinking of using all of this together to run a stripped-down Kingmaker campaign.

[@godlaydying]

They did the math. They did the monster math.

[@elsanto2401]

It was a dungeon smash.

[@VtTexpat]

@@elsanto2401 It caught on in a flash.

[@bret6484]

r/foundtheredditor

[@razorchuckles]

Dungeon Craft sent me - and I'm glad they did! This looks like a great idea - convenience of a system similar to 5e but with the deadly uncertainty and feel of 1st edition.

[@johnthehappyjohn]

Likewise! In our case, we're coming at it from the other direction, from the very loose, simple indie ruleset of DURF. There's a lot of similarities to it here, and having pinched a lot of features, I'll likely just switch to this for the next campaign.

[@warklegnaw220]

As I watched this, I thought to myself: "Man, this seems a lot like O5R." Then I realized Ben & Jessica Dutter wrote O5R...

[@lordbiscuitthetossable5352]

I brought the book in response to this review. I love how this book is just so clean compared to the 5th edition core books. Might give it a go to see how it runs because I just love how I can just look at a page and find what I need.

[@ElfLady]

Dungeon Craft sent me. High praise from his channel! I'm eager to delve into your content.

[@Mandroo]

I really like this more sinple 5E game. I plan to use it for a West Marches style game. Seems very easy to hack too in case players want to do weird things.

[@weemcast]

I've been considering a new WM game soon and was thinking Dungeon World (which I love) but... this looks really interesting for this, as you mentioned. My group has played DW, but they really do enjoy 5e so... this could be interesting indeed ;)

[@Mannahnin]

My ground uses the variant encumbrance rules in 5e, being a little more restrictive. I do want to try out one of the OSR encumbrance variants, though, like this one or the anti-hammerspace syatem, at some point.

[@Semiotichazey]

I've been seeing this around but I didn't know quite what it was bringing to the table. This was very informative - unsurprisingly for a consultant on the project, of course! - and very interesting. This would be perfect for a couple of people I know who want to pry their players away from 5e.

[@falsehero2001]

This is the crunch my 5e has been missing.

[@shockerck4465]

Dungeoncraft sent me. Im an old school player, B/X, Labyrinth Lord are some of my favorites. I tried 5E and it wasnt for me. Im very impressed with 5 Torches and backed it. Great game. It could have been a bit longer or do with an expansion. More races, classes, archetypes, spells, monsters, more miscast results, different ones for divine magic, sample character roll up for new players. But a great game!

[@jasonscranton2756]

I've been running with this system for the last 6 weeks using the 5e barrowmaze and it's been a blast. Thanks for the review!

[@modrell86]

I'm late to this game. I was just getting ready to make this exact same supply system for modifying Shadowdark.

[@kristianhaller6655]

Kristian Haller from Ohio here, Dungeoncraft sent me, 5 Torches Deep is as modern a system I would want to go. It has enough old school to it. I’m a B/X er at heart.

[@sebastianacevedo9424]

I really like this game! Specially the reduced spell list, creating wizards characters is so fast.

[@Dalboni]

The 5TD, Hero Points(DMGuide) & Plot Points(DMGuide) saved my Monday Night games. We needed less tabletop & relearning systems while getting more narration and action. This is GREAT and have done it for us. Tomb of Annihilation with these rules and veteran players makes everything very deadly for both sides and "Fast as F****" like action needs to be. There is no CR and "level adjusting", there is only "This one is too big for us", "We gonna be rich if we skin these", "Flee, Flee!", "This fight is pointless" or "If i can hit it we may be able to kill it". We would trade triceratop's boneshields or kamadan's skin for this book anytime.

[@VosperCDN]

I've picked this up in print, and I think it's a great system for quick pick-up game which could also support more of a campaign. Worth it, imo.

[@nicklarocco4178]

Seems a bit like a very light D&D based version of Torchbearer.

[@Semiotichazey]

Hey Ben, someone I was talking with pointed out an issue with these rules, and after looking them over, I think I agree. Spell mishaps really do occur too often. DCC wisely restrains its mishaps to critical fumbles, but you've got them happening with every roll failure. Sometimes less is more - fumble-on-failure can get old pretty quick, I think. Some of these are deadly, like 1d6 damage per level when you have 1d6 HP per level.

[@swaghauler8334]

I dropped that before I even played the game. I saw the writing on the wall. I am thinking of adding a little "grit" by changing the Proficiency Bonus to +1 thru +5 (only at my now added 10th Level max) and changing Characteristic bonuses to +/- 3 at max. I like smaller bonuses and slower progressions than base 5e though.

[@Mannahnin]

It's worked great in my game so far, thirteen sessions in. Though I will agree that the miscasts don't work the way I'd like if you limit yourself to just using the chart in the book. It's too short and will get repetitive given the number of miscasts you're going to have (unless your players are super cautious about casting). I have five different charts for them to roll on, including the book one, the Vornheim one, the 5E wild magic chart, the 2E wild magic chart, and the Low Fantasy Gaming miscast chart. It's been excellent. Really makes magic less predictable and boring.

[@benvoliothefirst]

@@Mannahnin I had the same thought. That 5E Wild Magic chart should be getting used for EVERY spellcaster on a critical fumble.

[@Mannahnin]

@@benvoliothefirst Thanks for bringing this back up! Around 40 sessions in now, and I have to admit that I'm more on Semiotichaze's page now. Miscasting on every failure is just too much. I changed a simple failure by 1-4 on the roll to just mean the caster loses that one spell for the day. Failing by 5 or more (or on a 1 in any event) triggers a Miscast. I am still using all the extra Miscast tables for greater variety, and that's still working great.

[@robertmoorhead2406]

I backed this on kickstarter, ended up picking up three copies. Also picked up the Duels rules they just put out. Been using the supply system for my 5e dungeon crawl, it plus a time tracking sheet has been very good for keeping dungeon crawling from becoming a management sim.

[@MeltingData]

This was my first step into the OSR, and I had a fair amount of fun with it! I ran up against the bounds of it while trying to run classic OSR material; since it's based on 5th edition it tends to have some conversion difficulties. But what was said about the rules being modular is really true; the durability and encumbrance are something I've brought over even as I run OSE. Great tool even if you have no love for 5e.

[@Keovar]

2:15 - The halfling image looks like a mugshot; like they got arrested for being Drunk & Disorderly after starting a brawl at the local tavern.

[@fchrisb804]

This is a really great idea. Looking forward to checking it out.

[@northdog]

Oh man, I saw this awhile ago but haven't been able to find it since. Thanks for the upload

[@TimDecker989]

Drivethrurpg has it for pdf and print on demand.

[@cell32005]

This could well be worth it just for the rubik's cube idea alone! Inspired!

[@gstaff1234]

With the chaos of 2023 and the OGL this is a great review

[@broke_af_games9661]

I love this game. I'm going to try to get my group to play. Thanks for the review because i totally misunderstood supply.

[@BennysGamingAttic]

I was literally just looking at this last night. Good timing!

[@gerardofrivia8413]

That 4e shout out 👌I will definitely get a copy of this and give it a try at my table. Looks great!

[@MarshmallowMadnesss]

Dungeon Craft sent me. First level characters feel overpowered in 5e. This seems full of cool ideas. I like the roll for spell-casting.

[@VaNtous77]

Ben Dutter gave us the tremendous Belly of the Beast RPG, so FTD goes into my "to buy" folder.

[@ninthlevelcantrip799]

Saw Zee Bashew stream this and ot looked cool but didnt fully get it. Thanks for this video!

[@davididiart5934]

I read this, and I'm itching to try it out. Which rules, would you say, add the most to the game when translated from FTD to 5e and vice versa?

[@Mannahnin]

I would say the encumbrance system is pretty great, and so is the injury chart, for lingering effects (and a small chance of death) for going to zero HP. Both can definitely patch issues with the 5E core rules.

[@RedDiceDiaries]

I have to admit that the landscape format of the book puts me off, particularly with a softcover book.

[@benvoliothefirst]

Nothing against the creators, I can see why they did it. Having the character sheet landscape leaves more room for minis on the table. But agreed. I HAAAAAAATE it. This thing disappears on a bookshelf.

[@johnross1048]

Does anyone know if FTD is part of the OGL or allows you to adopt parts thru Open Game Content?

[@aspektx]

This Los realy good. I especially like the abstraction rules.

[@Leverquin]

can you mix specialisations? like wizard then take warlock?

[@cell32005]

The quick reference page has been a staple in tabletop wargame rulebooks for a while now, interesting that it's only catching on in rpgs...

[@misomiso8228]

I really like 5TD. The only change I would make is the 'fixed stats' for the demihumans. I don't think these really work and they annoy me quite a bit!

[@CalebWimble]

Just eliminate racial stats completely IMO. The idea of having generic stats for all humans would be laughable (some of us are hulking 7-foot-tall Olympians, some are 4-foot-10 accountants). Should be similar for other species. There’s a near-infinite amount of variation among humans, and I don’t see why the same wouldn’t be true for orcs or dwarves. Let the players either roll for variety or distribute stats themselves as they please.

[@CalebWimble]

(Especially when you’re talking about D&D species, which like Star Trek aliens are nearly all just humans with palette swaps anyway. The different potential cultural backgrounds are what make them interesting. Otherwise it’s pure player aesthetics.)

[@benvoliothefirst]

@@CalebWimble Ah yes, had that thought powering through TNG the other day... every race is just humans with a different shape of weird stuff glued to their foreheads. I understand the budget constraints, but... WHY IS IT ALWAYS THE FOREHEAD?!?

[@freddaniel5099]

So do you like Five Torches Deep? Why? Nice flip thru video of a game I already have in my collection, but I would really like to know more of your evaluation of the product.

[@user__214]

Same. I wanted to know how the game (system) plays and how certain things might be handled differently than other systems. This was more a review of the book than a review of the system.

[@bodywhey8]

Call me crazy but I could hack this system to be a Followers system in normal 5e. The simplified classes, level cap, and spell simplicity could be great for that.

[@benvoliothefirst]

You're crazy! But I like the cut of your jib!

[@toddpickens]

Really good stuff. Order the book.

[@DnDOldGuard]

Ive wanted something like this for a while! I have to get my hands on a copy!!

[@markgnepper5636]

Great stuff friend 👏 👍

[@JoshuaCairns]

D&D 5e as it was supposed to be, or at least how they advertised it would be!

[@ryandavis4936]

which would you say to check out, 5 torches or OSR essentials?

[@megamonstercookies]

This looks phenomenal

[@dm4life579]

Under discovery the last sentence is bolded. Play to find out

[@jchart01]

So does anybody know what is the page size? Letter or A4?

[@demongustavditters7150]

Is there any support for this on roll20?

[@GreylanderTV]

The ability scores for races make no sense. Elves are supposed to be high dex/int, right? So it is just fixed at 13 which is just slightly above average? Wtf? Maybe set those as minimums, but still roll 3d6 for a chance to get higher.

[@CalebWimble]

Ability score requirements for races never make much sense. Throw them all out and accept races for the aesthetic/cultural flavor they are, imo.

[@Mannahnin]

Eh, you have a less than 26% chance to get a 13 or better on any given attribute on 3d6. Remember this is a lower power scale. The demi-humans in FTD guarantee you certain stats to be good, but to be really extraordinary at the start at something you need to be human and lucky. I think this actually does a better job of getting across what Gygax misguidedly tried to do with level limits forty+ years ago.

[@andreazaltron6850]

can you rewiew the skeletons?

[@tamatoFiend]

This is the book that converted me

[@jasonmileham]

Is all the 5e equipment compatible with this version?

[@BTsMusicChannel]

4:25 I am not so sure that "no two wizards are going to pick the exact same bonuses." It seems to me that most 5e players tend to pick those things that are going to offer them the most power. In other words, they are "power gaming." They find what things offer them the most power by experimenting or simply watching videos on KZbin, and take those things. 5e is more about gaining individual powers than it is about story, it seems (Just look at the videos on KZbin that people create about that game!). :/

[@stevenf4092]

DungeonCraft sent me! Already was a subscriber, great video as always!

[@QuestingBeast]

Where did he mention my channel?

[@stevenf4092]

@@QuestingBeast in his patreon video. It's not on KZbin yet I don't think.

[@QuestingBeast]

@@stevenf4092 Cool. Looking forward to watching it when it drops!

[@infinitydrifter]

Ben, I love your videos and subscribe to your channel, but one thing bugs me: "primer" as in an introduction or teaching aid (1:07 in this vid) is pronounced with a short "i" (sounds like "primmer" or rhymes with "prim - her"). Long "i" primer is reserved for painting miniatures or setting off bombs. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest, and keep up the good work. :)

[@QuestingBeast]

The British pronunciation uses a long "i", while American pronunciation uses the short "i". I guess I'm just used to the British way!

[@dinosnider6809]

I miss more generic classes. Wayyyy too many options for new players, let alone DMs. IMHO just mashup UA's sidekick NPC classes for same.

[@turnermotte9357]

Good review! I just have one question about components, I don't quite understand this sentence:"These are generally described in the spell from other sources, or left abstract (as SUP) in FTD." What does it mean, exactly? And where can I see those components? Thank you! :D

[@Spartacus547]

I remember as far as AD&D that you can go up to level 36 and Being god-like is very much old school D&D and being overpowered, it just requires the DM to put in extra work you have to make your own stat blocks you have to rewrite and create your own monsters oh my God "what Madness is this the DM has to do extra work" 😂

[@QuestingBeast]

Tap into the OSR with the Questing Beast newsletter: bit.ly/Glatisant Join the Questing Knights on Patreon: bit.ly/QBPatreon Download my RPGs and adventures: bit.ly/ItchStore My favorite OSR books: bit.ly/TopOSRBooks

[@emarsk77]

It looks really cool. The artwork is OK but for me not very inspiring. Except the cover which is awesome: it conveys a sense of impeding danger instead of showing über-powered demigods. The layout looks excellent. One thing I would change (in every RPG out there) is the association between combat bonuses and attributes: in real life you need dexterity more than strength to wield a sword while you need a lot of strength to draw a war bow. I'd probably choose based on the particular weapon (DEX for throwing knives, crossbows and most melee weapons, STR for bows and some large pole weapons like halberds).

[@CalebWimble]

Read through it, and while I’m more likely to use Five Torches Deep at my table than full-on 5e at this point, I wish the designers had gone a bit further in severing ties. There are a bunch of 5e features that feel vestigial given the scaling here, like the Advantage/Disadvantage mechanic, and I’m not sure Proficiency has a place in a system that eschews skills entirely except to complicate things needlessly. Similarly some of the hang-on OSR features feel like they’re kept “just because” - does anyone still need esoteric class and race stat requirements in this day and age? 5e reactions don’t feel like they have much place in a game without all the advanced class features that necessitate them. In fact they seem *more* complicated to remember here than in 5e by dint of only belonging to a few specific classes in specific cases, at limited number. All-in-all the classes feel too simple and lacking in options to sate the big 5e fans, while simultaneously too constrained by the 5e rule structure to suit the freeform improvisation and on-the-fly rulings associated with Basic. I really appreciate what Five Torches is going for, but when it comes to a game with the goal of marrying the strengths of both systems at some in-between degree of complexity, I’m still more likely to stick with Dungeon World (with Perilous Wilds or Freebooters adjustments when desired for that old-school sense of fatality). Absolutely love Five Torches’ layout and brevity though. I’m tempted to pick up a physical copy solely for the beauty of the page formatting.

[@CalebWimble]

Granted, I'm being a bit harsh. Five Torches Deep has a good chance of being the best and best laid out "simple D&D" book for quick setup sessions I've seen yet. It's not really fair of me to judge it by the standards of the impossibly perfect Dream D&D in my head. Also these GM tools are awesome.

[@Pend3rlab]

Let me sum up your review. "why doesnt this cherry ice cream taste more like chocolate?' You dismiss all the cool shit they innovated: the best way (that i have seen) to handle encumbrance, supply, dual wielding, durability and sundering of armor and weapons, making every stat useful. The friggin RUBIX-CUBE dungeon generator?!?!? Throw on a simplified but focused version of magic and combat...its a awesome design. This game wasnt meant to 'severe ties' with DnD, it was meant to celebrate the best parts with a highly focused design. You dont like OSR and the rigid game mechanics, awesome, go play Fate.

[@CalebWimble]

Relax, sport. I explained why it’s not quite what I hoped it would be, and that’s all. Try being less threatened by some stranger on the internet not loving the same games as you for the same reasons.

[@Pend3rlab]

​@@CalebWimble Don't call me sport, pal.

[@benvoliothefirst]

@@Pend3rlab I'M NOT YOUR BUDDY, GUY!!!

[@FellVoice]

He did the math! He did the monster math!

[@asearcher520]

Im looking for a dungeon crawl to play with my girlfriend with little to no DMing required while playing. Is this system a good idea for that or is there a better one?

[@JB-yg3ew]

I like this system, but I think I'll change the set stats, that doesn't seem fun. Also the proficiencies and adv proficiencies aren't clear to me. Is advanced equivalent of expert?

[@georgewilson2575]

Dungeon Craft sent me

[@MFewwy]

Aaaaand no... Not for me

[@MaebaeTV]

Hey if anyone is reading this comment and is looking for people to play FTD with. I've gone ahead and made a Five Torches Deep server to try and do my part to help build a community. Just look it up on Disboard as I don't think I can post links here.

[@DeusMachina71]

Love the game, hate the book format.. It turned me off from buying a hardcopy which is a shame

[@dafrca]

Thank You, this helped me know for sure I want to pass on this game.

[@bluesrock88]

This looks like a simplified 5E with just lower ability scores. This is not OSR, it lacks most of the OSR features. I feel like if I wanna play OSR I would play Basic Fantasy or something similar, otherwise I would play 5E. I dont see the point in playing Fie Torches Deep, to be honest, but maybe I am missing something.

[@joelcalderon7058]

I was your 1k like

[@whitedwarf9090]

I wish it had a proper bestiary

[@jonswift6173]

It's OK but I really don't like the restrictive spell lists and the supply is illogical and pointless

[@Grimmlocked]

I need to stop watching the reviews on this channel.... its cutting real hard into my disposable income

[@herofromthesky752]

Dungeon Craft sent me.

[@Demonskunk]

I hate how none of these OSR style things have any interesting races. Most of them are human only, and they don't get much more interesting than an Orc.

[@Pokarface7]

You can get The Black Hack and The Race Hack add-on for it to add additional races. There's also the race hack to try new things besides the classic: warrior, rouge, and wizard

[@HoundofOdin]

I'm honestly not impressed by this game. I got into the OSR because I love older editions of D&D and have a deep dislike of 5e. So the fact that 5e influences are creeping into the OSR, especially the advantage and disadvantage mechanic that I absolutely loathe, has me very unhappy.

[@ZachHarper]

Dr.Bright I’m curious to hear why you dislike advantage and disadvantage if you’re willing to share.

[@wolfknight75]

I guess it really depends on the definition of OSR. I have found this has changed over the years since the term was coined. Some think of it as using older editions of the D&D rules or the AD&D rules. Perhaps cleaned up and updated perhaps not. On the other hand I have seen people define OSR as a school of thought and ambiance of the game rather than rules. Things such as dungeon crawling, survival focused, gritty, deadly, dark. The rules in this case can also use older editions of D&D up to and including the 4th edition although I have never seen anything saying 5e can’t be used. Anyway this is not an answer to why the OP doesn’t like 5e but I thought it might help.

[@HoundofOdin]

@@wolfknight75 I find most of the mechanics in 5e extremely restrictive, and dislike how encounters significantly favor the PCs. I cut my teeth on 3.5 and then played 2e AD&D for a few years. With those as my primary influences, lots of customization and intense lethality are must haves in any game I run or play. D&D 5e gives me neither, going out of the way to limit both. Which is why I've come to the OSR and to a lesser extent Shadow of the Demon Lord. To me, mixing 5e rules with old school concepts is a bit like squirting ketchup on ramen noodles and calling it spaghetti. All the parts are there, but it just isn't right.

[@filthycasual8187]

I'm pleased to see a super-simplified and OSR-ified version of 5E, but I'm not a fan of how they're doing spellcasting. I'd prefer to use the spellcasting from White Box, and maybe bring in a few more spells too so mages and zealots aren't completely useless. It doesn't even say in the rulebook that homebrewing and house rules are allowed or encouraged like it does in some other books, so I'm probably gonna give this a hard pass.

[@zethnar]

They did the math. They did the monster math.