Five Ways to Foster Player Agency in Dungeons and Dragons 5e

[@cmurph321]

On the quantum ogre: A game designer friend of mine once gave me great advice. Don't say, "There are passages going straight, left, or right. Which do you choose?" Say, "The passage to the right has the smell of brimstone and a warm air coming from it. Down the passage to the left you here banging like metal on metal. The passage straight ahead is shrouded in magical darkness 20 feet down and you hear a low growl. Which do you choose?" Because that's an actual choice, not a coin toss.

[@BlueTressym]

Agreed 100%. I've got an article around somewhere called 'C is for Choices, Context, and Consequences' and I think the element that sometimes gets left out is Context. Without any information about what the different choices available could lead to, every choice feels like a coin toss and those choices are basically meaningless.

[@HorizonOfHope]

Top tip: encourage players to explain why. After they roll, even in combat, ask them why it missed. “Did it hit their shield? The armour stopped it?” For a failed skill roll: “Was rope frayed? Maybe that door is jammed from the other side?” It gives players a lot of agency and also gives buy-in to let them tell you why stuff does or doesn’t work.

[@Jojrre]

I love visualising how I roll. It helps me find the flow. Especially for my martial characters

[@metakarukenshi]

good advice, but also requires your players to be okay with improv. some players find thinking on the fly like that stressful, so make sure you establish this as your style in Session 0

[@AndrewFord-f9x]

This can really slow down combat, which already takes far too long anyway. I would advise doing it occasionally, such as combats with only one or two enemies and only for close misses, but not doing it all the time.

[@HorizonOfHope]

@@AndrewFord-f9x It really doesn’t, tbh. Once you get used to it, which doesn’t take long, players stop telling you dice rolls and instead tell you narrative. Speeding up comes from stuff like rolling all dice at once, which we do, ignoring damage if it hits. “Gem… *roll* slashes into the orc for eight damage.” “Your turn now.” “Rue looses her bow… *roll* but it clangs off the armour. Rue moves over here.” But also: it depends on why you are playing. For some players, speed isn’t fun if it comes at the expense of detail. It’s an RPG, and skipping all story can be dull. Wanting fast combat to avoid it being a slog can be a symptom combat is boring, so making it narrative and giving player agency can make it a way to have players want the combats to be longer.

[@metakarukenshi]

@@AndrewFord-f9x Its actually good but works best when you leave it for only Crits and the final blow that ends an encounter. players love describing their epic wins and epic failures

[@wook14010]

My DM’s promise to my player’s is this: “If I put you in a situation, there is a way out of it. You may not like it. You may have to make a hard choice. You may get hurt. But if I put you in it, there is a way out of it. However, you are responsible for your own actions. If you put yourselves in a situation, or you make poor choices in a situation I put you in, you can and will face consequences that I make no promises about. I will make doors for you, but you have to figure out how to get through them, and I will not bend over backwards to open them for you.” We had our session 0 a couple weeks ago and I said this almost word for word to them.

[@shawnwolf5961]

I really like this. My next campaign after the one I am running now, I think I will use this too!

[@chrismeandyou]

meaning responsible for the dice to save or burn you will the roll, haha

[@davidmeehan4486]

I find that there needs to be multiple ways to defeat a challenge, because what's obvious to the DM may be a thing that would never occur to the players.

[@RichWoods23]

​@@davidmeehan4486 And the corollary of that statement is that the DM can prepare for 22 possible courses of action only for the party to spot not a single one of them and leap straight to a 23rd.

[@davidmeehan4486]

@@RichWoods23 True It's a sort of Murphy's Law of Dungeons and Dragons, isn't it.

[@mikeesplace]

My main group doesn't play 5e anymore so I particularly appreciate videos like this that can be applied to any system!

[@Umbra_Canine]

Just out of curiosity what System your playing now . I personally flirt with they idea to change to DC20 Rule seh after the kickstarter with the beta comes out but i am still open to other systems to look in.

[@mikeesplace]

@@Umbra_Canine We are playing Pathfinder 2e now

[@neilmanansala399]

@@Umbra_Canine(I’m 2 months late, but) Similar to Mike, I’ve also switched from 5e to Pathfinder 2e - I’m never looking back! :)

[@HealingSwordsman]

As a DM some of the most fun moments is just listening to the party banter about their plan. If i notice they are laughing and having fun you just let them keep bantering - as a DM the challenge can be to know when not to do anything in those moments.

[@thomashulcher70]

The section about the castle and multiple entrances/methods of attack was very serendipitous. I just finished the third wheel of time book and it has a section right out of DnD. One of the PC’s is trying to perform a rescue from the dungeon of a fortress and is considering climbing the walls. An NPC comes along and mentions a secret entrance in the wall that he can guide the PC to. The PC decides to do that but wants to create a distraction with explosives (that he didn’t know the power of) and the “distraction” ends up blowing a hole in the wall that the PC and NPC end up going through to complete the mission. You can almost hear the conversation between the player and DM that builds this encounter out.

[@aprilshighfantasysoul5891]

Oh Mat and his fireworks XD

[@bover-5]

Dovie’andi se tovya sagain! …and sometimes you roll a nat20!

[@carterdahl9654]

The Dragon Reborn is such a great time

[@Darkwintre]

Christopher Lee I suspect would approve of that!

[@solar4planeta923]

I started playing as a teenager in the 80s, and at first we were just trying to survive the mysterious rules and dangerous and heretofore unknown beasts. Over time the story lines got more interesting and complex. This video is the timestamp for how far we've come in the hobby, and you dudes reflect the potential of the game as it is today so well

[@hangover89]

I think you nailed it with "don't plan for what they're going to do, just establish the setting and how the setting would react to the player's choices". When I started DMing I would go 'okay there's this obstacle, they can do A, B, or C to solve it'. Then the PCs would inevitably do option D and I'd be flummoxed. Now, I set up "okay there is this keep, they have 4 ballistae, 30 cultists, a dragon in the basement, two wizards, and 3 very impressionable ogres guarding the gate, and there is a hidden entrance that only a select few people in a neighouring town know about". I have no idea what the players will do, but I've established what defenses the keep has so I can react accordingly

[@RichWoods23]

I like to establish the personality and ability of a couple of important NPCs rather than just have them exist as stat blocks. For example, the commander of the keep's guard and their lieutenant: are they both veteran officers, disciplined soldiers with a knowledge of strategy and planning, or might one of them be a well-meaning drunkard and the other a self-serving martinet? Are the keep's guard well-trained and with good morale, and are they still that or were they originally trained by a competent and respected soldier who was replaced recently by an incompetent commander they mistrust? Having pre-determined reasons for high morale or a falling morale helps you be ready to reliably roleplay, for example, a NPC guardsman who might be targeted by the party for bribery, blackmail or betrayal (or ambushed and captured for interrogation).

[@danielhowsley6561]

This has been similar to my approach lately. Create some general characteristics of the town/dungeon and flesh it out with some defenses but focus on filling in the gaps as the players interact with the world.

[@AlexLawngtv]

These are also tips on how to do cooperativce story telling as a whole. You'll feel like you're another player discovering the unfolding story. Embrace having your players feeling smart. There is amazing amounts of overlap in DMing and the practices of great teachers.

[@MilieuGames]

Related to "Quantum Ogres", you can do "Quantum Rewards". Have a list of items (money, weapons, scrolls, etc) and if the players come up with a clever place for things to be hidden, give them something off of the list. Not always, but enough that they know engaging with the world is rewarded. Similarly, if they are looking for a secret entrance or key, and they come up with something good, consider giving it to them. You designing a dungeon, it's one person over a short period of time. It's not going to have everything it probably would in "real life".

[@zahreel3103]

I couldn't have asked for a better video right now! Kudos, guys! It's like you've read my mind. I recently made the switch from player to DM and this video will be a big help. I find that I'm railroading a bit too much in my first campaign.

[@MrDavidKord]

A big thing to remember that not all railroads are created equal. Do you know if your players FEEL like it's a railroad?

[@Politizer]

@zahreel3103 please do not take the above comment from johnymey4034 to heart. It's great that you are DMing; the hobby absolutely needs people like you who are brave enough to try DMing and who are interested in developing their craft. Also, the things the Dudes talk about in the video aren't all obvious (for example, designing dungeons with multiple ways in and multiple ways to be engaged with doesn't always come naturally -- as evidenced by the number of professionally published WotC campaigns whose dungeons aren't designed this way). I'm glad you're doing what you're doing, and don't listen to anyone who tells you you shouldn't DM!

[@tuomasronnberg5244]

Ignore the grouch and keep on GMing! The best way to learn is by doing.

[@zahreel3103]

@@Politizer I appreciate it

[@zahreel3103]

@@tuomasronnberg5244 Thank you

[@thebigfriendlygoliath]

Player agency in terms of overall campaign choice is super important too. I know Matt Colville makes pitch documents for his players for whatever next game they intend to run, and I started doing it too. I've found including players in this step can really set the stage for establishing player agency in all of the other mentioned areas, since they're more comfortable with the world in which its happening.

[@TheBahamaat]

I do that too - I'll make a list of 3 or so ideas I have fleshed out enough to start a campaign, along with systems we can use for each, and see which gets the most interest

[@davidwatches]

One way I've added more player agency to my games is through Crossroads encounters. This is where I present the players with two or three distinct (and usually mutually exclusive) choices with clear pros and cons for each. A Crossroads encounter avoids the "quantum ogre" phenomenon by showing the players that each option is unique and isn't a generic "Do you go left or right?" scenario. I even made a video on the topic and discussed how to reuse whichever option the PCs didn't choose.

[@jeromethiel4323]

Especially if you can call back to that decision in ways the group can remember and deal with. For example, the players have a decision either to go to the small village and investigate further, or follow the raider tracks to their lair. If they choose to go to the village, for example, they might uncover another plot also in the works. But if they don't, they might find out later that the village was suborned from within by a rival gang, and that comes back to bite the players in the butt. Vice versa, they go straight to the lair, which results in an easier fight with the bandits, and results in them foiling a greater evil being planned by the big bad, which would come up if they went to the village first. One of the best DM's i ever had said he just played out the major factions and multitude of bad guys who may or may not react to what the players are doing, but they never sat idle when the players weren't dealing with their machinations directly. So even just us players taking a break to sell off loot and rest up could cause issues later if we were slow to react to information about what our nemesis were doing. Made the world feel very dynamic and way more real. Because there were times when we simply didn't have enough time to handle everything we really needed to handle, and it let to some very tough challenges. It made time a real enemy in the game, and definitely made every decision feel important. Even things like simply taking time off to train for levels or do spell research, or anything else that takes time to do.

[@schuttd0wn]

Only DMed 8 sessions and this is probably the single most helpful I have watched for building sessions and story, thank you!

[@Indomakio]

Im fascinated about this topic and this video had the perfect timing. In my current campaign, two of the points you talk about happened within an hour of each other: The party helped a construct who works for the main city to stop a group of frost giants who were destroying everything. Soon after initiative, they realised the city (and thus the construct) were the real bad guys terraforming the Giants' territory, and they decided to attack the robot. The tables turned and it was great. They even get the help of the giants. But the mechanical being managed to scape flying away. Boy were the players pissed. They even said "we did everything good, and yet it was for nothing". I told them yeah, you did a lot of really good decisions, but you can't always win. You have new allies now, and you chose your new enemies. The construct getting away is a thing that could happen, and it doesn't make you less heroic.

[@wanderdragon1075]

I think my only addition is this: You can scale the severity of consequences to help soften the blow too. For example, maybe in the village the players can save 2/3 groups of villagers. The other thing I’ve done is used a round counter with thresholds for what could be accomplished. The situation was this: the players were sent to light a signal fire atop a tower, which would then see allied reinforcements come down to help the army the PCs were fighting against achieve victory. Of course those reinforcements were never coming, but the sooner that was made clear, the more important NPCs would be saved. My players actually managed to save everyone with some lucky critical hits and it is shaping the game going forward. Really fun stuff in my opinion

[@GhostlyGrimace]

Been needing a video like this, players are gonna get the chance to head to a big city soon and I want them to feel truly free

[@system_philosophy]

Thank you for great advice. Fostering player agency is not a easy way but if succeed sometimes one of the player say "Hey I want to try DM!!" like me. Its a difficult way especially DM get players to face the consequences like in this video but it will be worth. My advice is not going give every agency. Start small and expand it and treat like character arc progression.

[@beammeupscott3032]

I am so flippen glad you mentioned the "everybody lives" quote. That is pretty much my all time favorite episode. This video definitely inspired my game I'm running with my wife though so thanks!!

[@RPGChaos-yw3bj]

I love the idea of adding in "time" as a mechanic which creates player agency in missions, even pre existing books and campaigns.

[@kevinkasebier8775]

I did a similar thing to 3/5 method. My players were aiding an Orc civil war and had 3 options. 1) Go to the stronghold that acts as a strategic defense 2) Aid the wyvern tamers against an assault 3) Stop whatever ritual is happening at Everstorm Mountain. But I made it vary clear they only had time to do ONE of these. They took an entire session to debate where to go; what abilities they had to compensate, how they could potentially deal with backlash, what resources they could do without or needed the most. It was epic! Once they chose, I only had to write one of the branches for next session.

[@magnusprime962]

33:23 This is where I like the model that Dragon Age: Origins used. There are at least two choices for the outcome of a major quest, each of which has pros and cons. When and where it's appropriate you can have a third option that is better than the other two but requires more work on their part to discover and execute. The funny thing is that with my group of players, the third option is pretty much the one they always choose. Sometimes they even come up with solutions of their own that are better than anything I could've planned.

[@DBArtsCreators]

I think that's most players. If option 3 is better (overall) than options 1 & 2, then they'll go for option 3 even if it's a bit more work unless the other 2 options have some MAJOR impacts/rewards they can't get otherwise. After all, they are here to play, and option 3 just gives them more "game" to play (typically); it doesn't actually come at a cost to them (like how in many video games, money is neither a good reward nor a good cost, because you the player can always just grind to get more and don't need to spend it on anything regularly). I'd say that's actually a drawback of DA:O's major quest design - the third option is most often always the best option with the least drawback, not just a secret/unexpected option.

[@lylemitchell1991]

I've Just gotta say, I love you guys! I've been DM'ing for about 15 years and I love your Video's! I'ts great that I'm still learning and developing my DM skills with your help of course.

[@Mara-ig3st]

I definitely think the suggestion "reward players for investigating and engaging" is a good one. If they're looking for an alternate way into the dungeon and they do well at it, there should probably be new information gained from that. I have played a long campaign with a DM who has a very "'90s video game" style of quest and location design, where there's one way in, one way out, all the rooms are empty or nearly empty, there's no cover or environmental hazards, and you're just fighting monsters in a box. What I found was that over time, it trained us as players out of trying to do investigation, look for alternative solutions, or even go do research at the large magic university library we had access to because the answer was always some variation on, "You don't find anything useful. Now go in the box and fight the monster." Late in the campaign, the DM tried to run a storyline that involved opportunities for intrigue, research, etc. and we... completely missed it. After a year of being told "get in the box" we just... got in the box like always, and both the players and the DM came away from that arc confused and disappointed. That failed arc cast a shadow over the rest of the campaign and led to a lot of mutual frustration because our DM was saying "all you do is combat, you never try to problem solve" and the players were saying "any time we try to problem solve, we feel like you shut us down to the point where we don't bother trying to plan and just throw ourselves into combat rather than wasting session time on research or planning that never works." We're starting a new campaign with that DM soon after a couple of years off, so I'm interested to see how it goes...

[@Segwyne]

We are playing Shattered Obelisk and when my players needed to enter one of the fortified locations, they had a sword that glowed. They used this to pretend it was a beacon and they were on a mission to find an apprentice for a powerful wizard. They said that the closer they got, the brighter it shone, and they had never seen it so bright before so they were sure the apprentice was close. They succeeded on a Persuasion check, so the goblins let them in, and they had everyone line up to be tested by the sword/beacon. As they touched the sword to each goblin's head in turn, they chatted them all up to collect intel, and when they felt they had enough, a couple of cantrips made a light show for "finding the one!" This goblin got super excited to be the chosen one and packed up all of his belongings and then my party took him back to Phandalin, arranged a meeting with a wizard they knew to get him set up as an apprentice, and then they approached the rest of that Chapter as an ally of the goblins rather than an adversary. I was so impressed with their creativity. One player asked if he could have tailoring skills from his pre-adventurer life simply so he could sew up some wizard robes for this little goblin. This goblin will come back later, probably long after the adventure is over, so he has time to learn something.

[@Wheeler1717]

This may be the best video you guys have ever made. Every DM should watch and rewatch this until they have it memorized.

[@NaerenVastir]

oh kelly you asked for this... one of my greatest feats as a GM. So this was a starfinder game, so very science fantasy. know that this was a group i had played with before, or at least some of the players... its been awhile. the opening mission of the campaign was being hired by this "business man" to go and acquire a starship from the Azlanti Empire (notorious bad guys in the setting). This guy was clearly no paragon of goodness, he he was clearly just after this powerful weapon. and he even sent his daughter along with the party to "help" them, aka keep an eye on them. throughout several months of regular sessions, one of the PC's fell for the npc I sent along with them, there was alot of shared backstory between them, reveals and etc. which drove home that the person who hired the party was up to no good. eventually they succeed in stealing the ship, a few characters almost died, and they almost failed entirely getting trapped in the enemy base. after finding out what the ship, called the Veil Piercer could do (tear a whole through the fabric of reality itself) they had to decide on what to do with it. give it to the person who hired them who was clearly not very trustworthy, or keep it, and risk reprisal from the enemy empire. The players chose to complete the mission. At first, nothing bad happened. the players had some downtime, the NPC and the player who fell for them had their fade to black moment, and some things were wrapped up all around. then the NPC disappeared, leaving a note that they had to go back home. a bit of a down note for the party, but they just got paid, and got a new ship, and went off on another adventure, this time based on the one of the players personal quests. i wont go into all the details about what happened there, but there was some wibbly wobbly timey wimey bullshit, and the short time they were stuck on this planet, a much longer time passed in the outside universe... and once the party disabled the time bubble thing that was keeping them out of the normal flow of time, they got innundated with news about what happened while they were gone... and thats how they found out what their choices led to. the guy who hired them, actually a cultist (the cult had been teased a few times throughout the campaign for good measure) who wanted to tear open the border between our reality, and what starfinder's equivalent to the far realm was. basically the cthulu monsters. and the ship they delivered was the key... and the NPC whom the party grew to love and depend on... and the one carrying the child of one of the players (who's whole arc was about saving and protecting family btw) was being used as the power source for the ship. sadly the campaign broke down a few sessions after that with a couple players needing to leave. but they knew at the time that giving him that ship was probly not a good idea, and it was a really awesome ship they could have kept, and sure they might have instead ended up at war with the Empire, but they also stole the empires death star... fortunately my players LOVED this whole bit. it was like a week of "OMG WHAAAAT?!?!?!" and the player who i hit the hardest, the one that fell for the NPC... he was broken (in a good way, he liked that kind of shit it seems) for a good few days. and that my friends, is what letting the players decide how they want to engage with the story can get you.

[@jasondoughty865]

The Doctor Dances (the Doctor Who ep the line mentioned in the wrap up comes from) is such a good ep because of that scene. If gets me a little choked up (in a good way) every time I remember it, so thanks for that

[@NineInchFailz]

Love the concept of not planning for specific player actions in a quest, but rather have the setting and NPCs involved and knowing how they’d react

[@JAH711]

Great to see Kelly rocking the Mothership shirt. Feel like the panic engine adds to the player agency. Thanks for another great video dudes!

[@Jarlaxe111]

Good video! I think one can't emphasize the last part enough. Player Agency can only be measured in game world feedback (consequences). At the same time, the GM and players have to keep in mind that roleplaying is not the players competing with the game master, but rather telling a story together. If you are uncertain what kind of storytelling your players prefer, talking to them is elementary! And if you don't agree, meet in the middle. Nobody likes getting robbed of the feeling of victory, even if they aimed for the impossible. And on the other hand, victory feels sweeter if it was hard to accomplish, or sacrifices had to be made. If I had to choose one tipp for new GMs, it would be the point of this video: Make player decisions matter and find a way to show them ingame by NPC/World feedback. Anyway thanks for all the great videos guys, I might not always agree 100% but your videos are a pleasure to watch and Drakkenheim is fun, we're playing it for half a year now :)

[@samburchard9921]

Great Video! My campaigns were very linear, the players had agency to approach/handle things but not multiple quest options. Then I bought Dungeons of Drakkenheim. What a great campaign and a primer for giving player agency! It has been a game changer for me! Factions, personal quests, a layered sandbox with multiple options, consequences for choices! Even if you don't want to run it, get it any way to learn how these things are done. But running Dungeons of Drakkenheim is great! So well written! And room for the DM to be creative. The other day, I made up a new mutated creature to throw at my players. I can't say more about how great this campaign is. I am running it for two different groups and it is wild how different the campaigns are.

[@mattdixoncarter9383]

Some of these tips are good for the DM's enjoyment as well. For example when Monty and Martin talk about getting into a castle and propose "the less you care about how the players solve the problem, the more agency they have". It can be a great opportunity for the DM to have the enjoyment of being surprised by what these characters do.

[@Stormer13]

The mission board has been one of my favorite ways to give my players agency while not giving them too much. For context, my players told me after one of our early campaigns that they disliked how sandbox-y that campaign was because, until the very end, they felt lost in what they should do. In the next two campaigns I ran with this group, I did with the mission board to give them direction. They really loved that, as they got to choose what quest they pursued and see the effects of that quest on the world. On top of those, I also sprinkled in plot threads connected to multiple backstory arcs so they could also pursue those with their questing.

[@jaredlocke4300]

My favorite recurring villain I had in a campaign was charming, and even friendly to the players. It was a difference in circumstances, grey area morals and position that put them against each other

[@mslabo102s2]

You guys never miss. This was my biggest problem I had and now you brought me words on it. Edit: Now I feel I got pressed into playing dark fantasy which is I'm not a fan of. The last two options only feel like they're possible in grittier genres and settings. No, it's not just the last one, but also the Choose-Your-Own-BBEG one.

[@8umber]

As I grow older I've come to understand the power of a moment where a character fails in their objective.

[@Krim_The_Crow]

At 40:30 I thought you guys had somehow read my mind from the past. For a few minutes before then I was thinking about that quote from Doctor Who, and trying to remember the exact line, and formulating how I would write a comment bringing it up. And then you said it any way 😅. Nice to know you had the same idea as me. That particular episode is amazing because it's so dark, darker than Doctor Who would usually get, but it's the one with a truly "we saved everyone" happy ending. It makes you feel the joy along with the Doctor when he says that "Just this once, everybody lives!" line.

[@syrupchugger421]

Oooo, when my players return to the HUB I can give multiple options they can choose from. Thank you again for the video

[@jeffwhittingham5314]

I like dark fantasy quite a lot, but I rarely include situations where it's impossible to save everyone. That path is usually the hardest one though, and failing rolls will certainly lead to people dying. I think that is how I prefer to handle consequences though - make them a result of both a choice and a dice roll that doesn't go the player's way. I do like the idea of having easier options - where the "path of least resistance" is easier, sure, but it also leads to a suboptimal outcome (i.e. npc's will die regardless of the dice rolls). These are often the more interesting choices which lead to better character development, so I usually want my players to make these choices. I just don't force them to because it almost always feels contrived and is rarely satisfying to my players.

[@arcanehippie5597]

in regards to choosing adversaries, enemies, and allies, my group's cyberpunk campaign (D&D 5e; high fantasy progressing into cyberpunk) has made this really easy with the amount of gangs and corporations that exist within the setting. what I thought would be just a crime family that stepped in to interrupt the group's job turned into a group of minor antagonists, then, after a few character changes, a group of major antagonists as a new addition to the party has this crime family directly linked to their backstory

[@KaioKenneth4]

31:53 I’m so happy my favorite quote came up in a Dungeon Dudes video!

[@kurobara9001]

My DM goal: I have challenged myself that epic success and epic fails are treated as such, even if it derails my plans - the most implausible, improbable action (some things *are* impossible), the most vital save, the clutch bluff. This has turned some of my enemy units into player allies, my players write the lore as motives and actions are explained in these success and failure, and whole scenes are lost to a perfect role. I find the chaos invigorating to my methodically planned sessions.

[@jameswilletts8885]

That’s probably the best Dungeon Dudes episode I have ever seen. Thank you! And very timely considering I’m trying to move a Star Wars campaign I’m running to a more sandboxed style, and similarly working to develop those muscles as a GM and as a player. I am slogging my way through the Fishel Brothers’ guide to proactive roleplaying, and just discovered the Earthmote KZbin channel. Thank you both so much for getting into more of these character- and story-forward, as well as system-agnostic and genre-neutral goldmines of input on KZbin. 🙏 🚀 If the nod to encouraging nuance beyond pass/fail at the end of your video was a deliberate and direct contrast to a gaming mechanic that has historically been pass/fail, then kudos! I see what you did there. 😉

[@misterspaceman9563]

A personal favorite of mine are heist encounters. All I do is give them details about the setting, tell them what they have to obtain, and then sit back and let them come up with their own Oceans 11 plan.

[@RichWoods23]

"Yes! It's a train heist! Absolute classic. Well, it's a wagon train, but that's close enough."

[@matthewhanson701]

Excellent. Comprehensiveness. Depth. Well done, guys.

[@joeymullins5142]

Explaining that there are choices like this is HUGE. I once ran my first big siege encounter years ago. The players were defending a portside town. I explained some of the basic mechanics and how it would run in waves. However, they couldn't be everywhere at once. The players won a couple short encounters and thought they were doing well. However, areas they didn't protect were being overrun (the militia was performing quite poorly). Players couldn't save everyone and didn't think "retreating" from a position was an option (I tried to hint this from an NPC who was retreating from the area, but the table didn't pick this up). They fought the BBEG leading the army early and were trying to defend the port/lighthouse. They lost, got captured, and the rest is history. This was a big lesson and moment for myself and the whole table. I definitely should've went into more detail/spelling out they could fall back if they needed to. As it was my first time running a siege, I had a lot on my plate. Either way, everyone still had fun and we completed the campaign together.

[@FutmamiMami]

i did the quest board thing for a while. liked it a lot but it was way more work prepping. eventually we funneled into an ongoing story arc based on something that the party became interested in and while I'd still love to try quest board style again, it honestly came as a relief to only track one through-line.

[@tanyabowers-dean2345]

As a player and a DM, I don’t always want an extreme moral dilemma in my game. Sometimes I just want fantasy escapism. It’s nice to imagine that mythical place where the good people do save everyone.

[@Vandylizer]

Loved the analogies with the different Batman approaches. And that's pretty heads up of you guys to include "be aware of what type of group your players are" because the end goal is fun not frustration. I know I love having to make tough choices with almkst guaranteed negatives outcomes because it feels like thise choices matter, whereas some people want that 100% videogame feeling with 0 failures. I think the phrase "pick your poison" applies well here too. They may have a guaranteed negative outcome, but they get to pick that poison. Then they get to choose the enemies they look forward to fighting most.

[@calliesummers1943]

Love this video! I think I had taken the wrong lesson about quantum ogres and I would have been leaning on it too much. This gives a lot more nuance about how much and when it's useful and when it's not.

[@shay212]

This was a really fun video with great advice. I love the characters making\choosing their own enemies because who knows what choices will come back to bite them! And as much as I love the heroic, everyone lives ending, I also love crafting tough choices for players and even making them when playing (even if they break my heart!). It feels like there’s a lot of room for defining character moments with that and could even be spun in an optimistic way. Like, just because the characters can’t save everyone, are they still willing to save those they can? Even if they can’t be all powerful legendary heroes saving every single person and town, they can still be heroes who do rescue at least some people and save a town. That matters too. Awesome video guys! Thank you!

[@bradleymartinez185]

I needed this video so bad and could not have had better timing. Cooking up a new campaign as a newbie dm so ill be giving the channel some extra views lol

[@Frederic_S]

25 Minutes in and I am doing all of this. Wow. I am glad. Player agency is so important to me as a player, so I want to do all that is humanly possible to give my players as much agency as I can. P.S.: "The enemy of my enemy will die second." ☺

[@theorycrafters7281]

This is good cuz I've been actually taking a lot of time planning my new campaign. My first fully homebrew world

[@eleishar18]

Sometimes only one player has agency. Like two weeks ago we got two quests to choose between in our Soulbound RPG campaign. One was about dragon, kinda generic... BUT it's lair was in abandoned Fyreslayers' Lodge, and my character is (You guessed it) Fyreslayer, so he didn't even consider a second quest. Even though dragon one was more difficult, our party went dragon hunting.

[@UltimosGabriel]

36:00 I always liked the idea that for the party to save everyone they must sacrifice themselves. That's cool as reck.

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

Amazing Picard quote there. Wow. This was an intense session.

[@1987Onslaught]

Truly oulandish can be incredibly memorable. My players used the magical paints and made a giant cake and used it like the trojan horse for the hill giant Guh. It was ridiculous and wonderful

[@christiangex2055]

Congratulations again on your third Kickstarter. I'm delighted to have bought for the third time too. YES YES YES

[@Cassapphic]

If you want to lean more to the improv angle of storytelling, for the groups the players werent able to reach and save in time, roll some dice to determine the outcome, roll death saves for if some of the impprtant npcs there escaped or not and that'll add some unforseen variety that'll inspire creativity.

[@jakeholmes9296]

This isn’t specifically about player agency but I think it encourages it. Sometimes after the session, if they come up with a really cool plan or idea that changes what would of happened to make it more favourable to them, I tell them that and what would have happened if they hadn’t done that cool idea. Then they know they can change how things go, that it isn’t all going to go just how I want it

[@twilightgardenspresentatio6384]

3:30 I’ve done this too. Next time as they fail or die I’m gonna ask what npc on the field now they want to jump into. I think in the end they’ll at least be the team that works together to save themselves along with the surviving player. The goal is that the team leaves with the feeling of success after building a story of simulation fantasy

[@Insert_Bland_Name_Here]

For my current campaign, I was sort of planning on it just being a one-shot adventure, but only like 15 minutes into the first session, the players were told about some strange vaguely humanoid creatures, and one of the players excitedly exclaimed "Mind Flayers!?", and from that moment, I immediately knew that I had to figure out a way to add Illithid to this campaign. Three sessions down, the players have yet to encounter a single Illithid (they're only Level 3 at this point, while Illithid are Level 8, minimum), but a couple of NPCs and monsters have mentioned the Illithid, and really built them up to be a really dangerous foe. For the three sessions we've done so far, I've actually just let the players do things however they wanted. I expected them to massacre a village of Goblins - They decided to talk their way out of it, and made a couple of friends. I expected them to use a ritual to put a spirit to rest - They decided to just fight it, and still got the job done. I expected them to use a ritual to purify a Gulthias Tree - They decided to drop a couple of torches around the tree and burn it to the ground, technically solving the problem. I expected them to negotiate with a former sellsword turned highwayman - They decided to fight him and ended up killing him. I expected them to kill a bunch of Troglodytes - The Bard/Warlock decided to use Awakened Mind to communicate with them and convinced them to let a hostage go without a fight. I expected them to take a shortcut through a forest to arrive at their next destination before an NPC they were asked to bring back - They took the long road, got in a fight and ended up finding a Cloak of Billowing that the Bard immediately took for himself. I expected them to ask around a village, to find out if anyone had seen the NPC mentioned above - They decided to just go to bed in the room right next to said runaway NPC. I expected them to immediately run after the NPC - They decided to spend the next entire morning asking around in the village, only to learn that the NPC had already left for the swamp the PCs were going to anyway. I expected them to try and convince some Grung to let them pass peacefully - They decided to commit Grung Genocide. I expected them to then murderize the rest of the Grung village - They decided to negotiate peacefully. I expected them to have to find some clever way to sneak past an Adult Black Dragon, a Grung Wildling, a Grung Elite Warrior and several regular Grung - They decided to convince the Grung to turn on the dragon, and managed to kill the dragon and enthrone the Grung Elite Warrior as the new Swamp King in the dragon's place, also becoming friends with the Grung. I expected them to carefully navigate through a tomb and kill everything they saw - They decided to just go straight for the boss at the end and then clean up afterwards. I'm sure there are more instances of my players doing the exact opposite of what I would have expected, but these are the ones from three 8-hour sessions that stand out as memorable. They've had encounters with two different humanoid races, and both times have ended with them becoming friends with them, despite everything up to that point suggesting that they might be going for the genocide option. And frankly, letting the players just decide how they want to approach things makes it a lot more fun for me, because despite how the players' morals may be all over the place, it just makes for a much more fun game for everyone, and it's a lot easier for me to plan when I can just plan the quests and locations, and then leave the rest up to improv and the players. I could have just said "No, you can't do that" every time they wanted to do something I hadn't planned, but I decided that giving them the choice of how they wanted to do things, despite this being a fairly linear game, would be more fun.

[@johnkelley7543]

The BBEG trope is absolutely something I'm doing in my current campaign. It's a pre-Dark Sun campaign and Sorcerer-Kings are emerging. The Mantids (thri-kreen) are a force with their own champion, as are various SK/SQs, and interplanar forces all vying for control over the planet in different ways as it goes through the unwinding of magical integrity toward the desolate wasteland of Athas.

[@aled857]

Yes, yes , yes with that wait and see who the players "decided" who the Big bad is/what conflict they want to pursue the most, Ran a 9 session arc of LOTFP with plenty of hooks in sessions for them to latch on too and go that direction or just go along and react to whatever scenarios I was putting forth, session 6 I ran Death Love Doom and they actually retrieved and escaped with the "maguffin" and came to the conclusion to pursue a "long road to Mt. Doom" type of thing , ...it was cool

[@CeeLoGreen666]

The dudes have a successful Kickstarter and still drop vids on time. This is what I'm fucking talking about gentlemen. Can't wait for Monsters of Drakkenheim!!

[@jameswilletts8885]

Also on agency… Mind control (provided it’s consented in your session zero): One of my players has a hard rule that if there’s any form of mind control in the setting, the player still plays their character. “Let me make those decisions for the story with my character, even if they’re not themselves.”

[@ventusvindictus]

I run for three groups. One group plans between sessions, works together and improvises during each session to achieve success, and play to be "heroes" rather than "badasses". Really the dream group. The second group will spend an hour of in-game time talking in-character about how they prepare their food/beverages (Tang coffee was the choice), and talk to every NPC about every little thing, and they jump at every single plot hook like a Skyrim player. A delight to run for and super easy because of how little they actually do in each session. The third group wakes up each morning, confers briefly together, and chooses violence.

[@jareddmunoz]

I was DMing lost mines. During one of the encounters, they knocked out a goblin and interrogated him. His name was Boris and he had been forced to work for the enemy who had kidnapped his adoptive parents. They went on to rescue his parents and they made allies along the way. I miss Boris and yes I made this all up on the spot. One of my favorite moments

[@FateAndFlannel]

I did some of this when I ran Curse of Strahd. I set my party up in Vallaki as a home base, since it was central and nominally safe, and then gave them other locations as missions to pursue from there. Planning to do the same for Rise of Tiamat, once the insane road trip of Hoard of the Dragon Queen is over. My usual strategy for maintaining player agency is to leave the resolution of most plot points in my players' hands and come up with suitable consequences afterwards. Having preconceived notions of how things should go puts us at odds, and that's not what I want from my campaigns. So when my players wanted to poison a family of adult black dragons with the distilled nightmares of a slumbering evil god, I let them do it.

[@jakeholmes9296]

Something I would say that can be a great thing to do for player agency is adding things into your world, that you hadn’t thought of, when players talk about them. My players have just come into the cosmological clock tower basement through the sewer. There wasn’t a sewer entrance into the basement, but they came up with the idea so I popped it in there.

[@ion_eyes]

Love your guys' videos. I haven't played D&D in quite a while, but I'm wanting to play a different tabletop game with my wife (Hunter: The Vigil). These tips can be adapted for any TTRPG game, and I'll be working on making it a fun experience for her. Maybe I'll eventually start posting our sessions on our channel. :)

[@sambob998]

Another cracking video. Lots of confirmation for myself which is nice! Good job lads.

[@parsifalsunflower6529]

I got my physical Sebastián Crowes Guide to Drakkenheim and it is beautiful

[@NathanT_Performer]

I stopped a big bad from escaping by using vortex warp this past weekend. It was most satisfying

[@jasonagodfrey]

Talking about choosing adversaries. I have a group of criminals/mercenaries and have a few ideas for big bad guys. Those ideas will still go ahead, but in one heist they used and abused a member of staff to gain entrance, knowingly costing him his livelihood. As soon as that heist ended, I sat back and realized this is the new villain's origin story. May the gods have mercy on them.

[@adreabrooks11]

In these days of pervasive social anxiety, I'm beginning to encounter the opposite issue of player agency. More and more, I'm encountering players who don't grok the fact that their characters are powerful, competent individuals. Presented with a goal (we need to get into the fort; we need to capture a ship; how do we locate the gnolls who are raiding from this forest?), the players freeze up, and simply wait to be railroaded. In short, they don't *want* player agency, they want a boxed adventure. I'm a sandbox GM by preference. My first decade or two of GMing was for a bunch of chaos gremlin players (bless them all; we had a blast!) and any notion I had of railroading was quickly dispatched by someone setting fire to the lich's mansion, driving a semi truck into the super-villain's stronghold and so on. It trained me to keep things spontaneous, and count on player agency as a given. Over the last few years, I've been encountering a different breed of player - one who is accustomed to being presented with pre-packaged fare, and told exactly what to do and how to arrive at it. I often feel like I'm stealing the limelight, because I end up having to include NPCs whose skills overlap those of the PCs, just to poke them with narrow margins: "Did you try to do this or that? I wonder if X would work. The way I see it: Y and Z." However, without these prods, the players stagnate, and feel like they haven't been given any clues. (In reality, they haven't been told what to do with the clues given.) This isn't a matter of "problem" players either. I've seen it in probably close to twenty players, over five years, from all over North America - as well as beyond the game table. It's a real challenge to an old-school greybeard, and I really need to figure out some method of baiting them into using what's at hand (skills, items in their possession, contacts...). I've tried blatant rewards ("The amulet you seek is worn by the mid-boss," "The hag gave the order to burn the village for which you seek vengeance." etc.) but to limited success - and a big rewards add up/lose lustre if they're found on every bandit captain and otyugh midden. TL;DR: Have you guys considered making a video regarding the opposite side of the coin? I.e. motivating low-agency players? I know you've made a few boxed adventures yourselves now (which are always tailored in such a way as to "hook" perfect strangers with various levels of RP skill/motivation), and I'd be interested to her your thoughts - as well as those in the comment section.

[@walkinghazards7528]

My current campaign had a completely different plotline and story in mind - with a different BBEG, major characters and groups etc all ready to go - then the Warlock did something I was wholly unprepared for. I was a new DM at the time, and I had written into the lore of the setting that this action would result in the release of the seemingly evil and eldritch god the warlock had a pretty antagonistic service relationship with, where the warlock was actively afraid of their patron but needed the power. I ran with it, because I felt it had to happen as I'd already written this into the lore, despite the players having no idea, so they released this eldritch god of magic and the whole campaign plot shifted immediately. I think it was for the better, the original plot is still happening, but now the party is embroiled in something much bigger and they've had the chance to talk to who would've been the main antagonists of the original campaign, attempting to force them to put their war on hold to make all these allies for this much bigger problem. It's neat, all these changes coming from one instance of me just sorta not knowing how to handle one action due to being new.

[@benrichardson5662]

I love it when my players find a way to "cheese" the challenges I put in front of them. In my opinion it's silly to expect them to play by the rules presented to them by the scenario if they can contrive a strategy to do otherwise.

[@jay_caspian2050]

Awesome video guys! I loved this. Please do more like this!

[@Jerthanis]

One thought I have about the concept of the timed quests, ability to do 3/5ths of available quests, that topic, one potential of the "rival party" idea is that rather than be antagonists, the villain, or working for the villain, they could be frienemies, or just straight up allies who will be available to take the assignments the PCs choose not to take. There can be an issue with this kind of time sensitive quest where like, if the blacksmith's son and the innkeeper's daughter are both kidnapped by separate forces, your choice of who to save means the other avenue fails. If the PCs are required to chase down every problem or it comes unglued, it limits how desperate any of them are. The PCs are basically required to fail half of all problems by default. With your example of collecting the elemental gems or whatever, it's not so bad because it'll resolve itself in the end, but in situations where some mage is opening a portal to hell and another guy is a vampire about to embrace his bride and run away somewhere the PCs can't stop them, whichever one the PCs choose, they've got a portal to hell or a pair of vampires that the world now has to deal with. Having a party of frienemies who take on alternate path quests, but either screw them up slightly and don't solve them as well as the PCs would, or who need bailing out, or who accomplish the task with losses means the PCs get to make the choice, but you aren't limited in the direness of the outcome of any specific quest, or else tempt the PCs to split up to accomplish multiple at once. Another perhaps unexpected benefit of this "Frienemy party" is that you can develop the characters in it over time, and you can use it as an excuse for where PCs are when their players can't make it to a session... they went to help the rival party accomplish their alternative path quest, and if the PCs are down a necessary role in the party without the missing PC, the rival party can supply a member who can act as an NPC ally for that session.

[@gaelickledoher4773]

Thank you so much for this video. This is one of the best and I have matched many. Why? Because we really delve in the mechanics of ttrpg. What it is about and what it is leading to. Decisions will have consequences. Good or bad. The way a character is played will have repercussions in the environment, the people you meet, the NPCs you kill and so on. I tend to always try to leave choices to my players. But as Monty mentioned. NPCs in a castle are not just going to wait for the PCs to come in and kill them one by one. At one point they will defend their lives the best they can and use all strategy they can to overcome the PCs. I actually have the case in Tyranny of Dragons. Players went for the bandit camp again in order to investigate the caverns and eventually find the dragon eggs. But their strategy to go in or make the NPCs come out failed. They almost got TPKed. They are all now prisoners of the cult but one who managed to escape. Next session will definitely be interesting to see how they plan on getting out of this mess. 😂 They were hoping that only a elfes of the monsters in the caverns would come out… well there is a tough warrior that is I telligent in there and no this is not what is going to happen. So everyone in the cavern came out to meet the PCs 😅

[@wompusslompus5424]

Great advice as always you two!

[@DungeonDudes]

Thanks!

[@MarkoSeldo]

And now I know why my current group feels weird. It's almost like they don't want agency. They seem to be drawn to the railroad story and are all but asking "what should we do next?" I couldn't put my finger on what felt so strange about the current campaign, but this is it. So I feel like a storyteller rather than a cat-herder.

[@mentalrebllion1270]

Loving the Tyranny of Dragons references throughout this video lol

[@ramzcoldlampin5460]

Another fantastic video as always gents. You are definitely giving me some food for thought.

[@mikecarson7769]

As a Neutral Good DM, I like to create situations and then allow the characters to develop their own approach. If the group seems to face trouble with a plan, then i can suggest a few possibilities that each character would know.

[@aprilshighfantasysoul5891]

A good thing to remember also is that sometimes, too much player 'agency' actually turns into an overwhelming burden, so finding the balance is key. If your PCs start to feel like they're the only competent beings in existence and if they weren't around, everyone in the world would die from the most mundane things, it can be too much responsibility placed on the PCs. If the entire weight of every single issue in the realm falls on the shoulders of the PCs, it can start to feel like a world not worth living in - if you have to choose between taking out the dragon terrorizing the mines, orcs attacking farmland, the evil wizard attacking the castle, and the cult attacking a village - and you can't get to all of them, as a player, you start to wonder how anyone survived before you were born. Perhaps give options of competent NPCs players can recruit to tackle some of the jobs the party can't get to, have the option of giving the farmers a bit of militia training to hold the orcs off until you (or perhaps an actual military - do those even exist in most DnD games other than to go against the PCs?) can have time to fully deal with the orcs, or call ahead to a player's contact in the city to warn them about the wizard coming to attack so you have allies ready once you get there. Sometimes DMs seem to think that creating competent allies for the PCs is 'taking away PC agency' or 'making it too easy for the PCs' or maybe think that will make the PCs feel not as necessary to the world, but in my experience, I as a player and my players I DM for LOVE competent PCs that help out sometimes. Not all the time, but for me, it's important to show that collective action is how real change is made, not simply the OP actions of a select few. To me, it makes the world feel bigger and makes it worth living in for a PC when all the responsibility isn't on them. Yes, they help out - and maybe do the lion's share - but at the end of the day, if they can finish the mission and be able to leave town knowing that the civilians are in good hands, it's incredibly satisfying and doesn't take away the 'power fantasy' at all. And as a side note, DM's need to be careful that "these are the consequences of your actions" doesn't become their version of "that's what my character would do". Both sentiments are good on a basic level, but be careful you're not using that as an excuse for some bad DMing behavior toward your PCs.

[@shixter]

EVIL MONTY Appeared at the end - love it

[@buddhaweatherby368]

We had a homebrew campaign where there were a lot of meaningful choices along the way and even a point at which we realized we’d been duped and ended up siding with long time mortal enemies against the actual BBEG.

[@eclectic9210]

Here Here Thank you for setting the record straight.

[@magnusprime962]

5:05 I had a recent example of giving my players so much agency that I eventually had to take it away. We were playing Dragon Heist and just about to start Chapter 3. The players had figured out that one of the Big Bads was using a traveling carnival ship as a cover and wanted to investigate. The problem is that I had nothing prepared for that because they had figured the Big Bad out a little earlier than I had planned. So I tried to discourage them away by saying that everyone on the ship was elsewhere in the city setting up a carnival that would be ready in a week. They took that to mean that they should go to the site where the carnival was being set up. I tried to steer them away again by having some guards outside tell them that it was blocked off, but they could come back in a week. The players were convinced I was hiding something and trying to lure them in. They wanted to find a way to sneak into the site. At that point, I had to just drop the pretense and tell them I didn't have anything prepared for that and wouldn't be able to improvise enough to work with them. Thankfully they were very understanding and willing to return to what I had prepped. I still feel a little embarrassed about the situation though.

[@phantomlantern9169]

My last campaign didn't have one BBEG, but rather a group of rivals that had their classes but different subclasses. basically the dark mirror archetype

[@GeraldKatz]

I had my own avoid the stairs moment as a player. This was 2E during college. The party was traveling along. The DM kept bragging we were to enter a thick forest and he was going to throw so many hazards and monsters at us for a difficult time. We reach the edge of the forest we knew in character was dangerous. The DM was so excited and goading. I was playing a druid. I asked if there were bees around. The DM said yes. I cast Giant Insect, a 2E spell of the time. Because of my level and how the spell worked, I was able to enlarge enough number of bees for the party to ride and fly over the forest avoiding all the hazards and monsters within. I didn't know it at the time, but that was the moment the DM decided to stop being my friend. In future games regardless of character things would not go my way. The DM became hostile to me out of game in our social group and got a few others to join him. I could never play D&D with them again. I still played with others during college, but those friendships were over.

[@Turtlpwr]

6:27 why do so many of us as dm’s, myself included, think that Tyranny of Dragons will be the best first campaign for ourselves? By the time I got to chapter 111, I was so exhausted and ready to be done with it. Although my table has really enjoyed the game, the entire time I constantly thought “this feels convoluted and over complicated”

[@AndrewFord-f9x]

Most of the WOTC 5e modules are terrible in layout (each encounter requires looking at 4 different parts of the book at once), structure, pacing, lack of downtime, amount of railroading, what the rest of the world is (not) doing about the situation, etc. They require so much DM work to fix that the DM's Guild has authors making bank publishes fixes and improvements. I do think ToD is the very worst that I've read, run or played in.

[@kaininteresse5374]

I don't want to defend the Module or WotC, but just to get things right here: Tyranny of Dragons was done by Kobold Press. Anyway the layout of 5e Modules demand a lot of work an preparation done by the DM. I mainly use modules for inspiration and pick things I like. The only 5e module I ran from start to finish was Rime of the Frost maiden.

[@AndrewFord-f9x]

@@kaininteresse5374 Funnily enough we're both right (although you're "more right") - my copy has the branding of both WOTC and Kobold, and looks identical to all my WOTC books, not my other Kobold ones, which is why I keep forgetting that Kobold wrote it. But it has a foreword by Mike Mearls and is clearly approved by WOTC.

[@shybard]

Better living through abyssal energies? I like it. Sign me up.

[@Amanda-dn4ld]

The open ended BBEG is what I'm hoping to do in my next campaign. I feel like a villain that is responsive to them and is more personalized would be more fun than one that is pre-determined.

[@AndrewFord-f9x]

One potential problem (depending on your players) with presenting X quests and only Y (less than X) can be completed in time - some groups will split up and try to do them all, because the default expectation in D&D, that they have probably grown up with, is that they are heroes who save the day for (almost) everyone, and that there is a way to do that if only they can find it (and roll well enough). This could end in TPK if the threats of each quest are over-tuned for a partial party, and it can lead to boredom if the threats in each quest are balanced for a part of the party but the whole party goes, and it can lead to players feeling bad about not saving someone. Not insurmountable problems, but they should be kept in mind. And you need to know your players, and communicate clearly with them!

[@Smeelio]

Great video! My one addition/criticism would be I think the "in dark fantasy, if the players try to save everyone, they ALL die" is maybe a bit much to enforce universally, even in dark fantasy; like, if they go in knowing they are spending time on a scheme that might not work, and thus the choice becomes save 3 of 3 or 0 of 3 when they could be spending that time saving 1 of 3, then sure, if they fail then everyone dies! But if they do their best to save all 3 in a reasonable way (using teleports, dashing, etc.) when you warned them they won't be able to succeed, and just for TRYING to do that you arbitrarily kill everyone, that's kind of ridiculous. I would maybe play it like they can only save 1 of 3, BUT if they are really smart and do something the GM didn't think of, now they can save 2 of 3 instead; still consequences! I think it's a case-by-case thing where you have to look at what they are doing in a reasonable way and adjudicate it harshly BUT fairly, rather than defaulting to "you tried to get around my choice so I am killing all the NPCs" when elsewhere they would be rewarded for innovation.